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ketaki1981
01 June 2010, 09:13 AM
Rebirth happens because of ACCUMULATED KARMA.

Is ACCUMULATED KARMA = karmic debit + karmic credit ?

If yes then can we conclude karmic debit or karmic credit. .... any one of these two would cause rebirth....

vr76413
02 June 2010, 12:32 PM
Just Briefly...
there are 3 types of Karma
1. Prarabdha Karma : The Karmas that are Now ripe and ready , and you take your birth with these Karmas. These Karmas will decide what kind of Birth you take.
2. Sanchita Karma: Total Accumualted Karmas that are still pending to get ripe. It will 1000's of Years to cleanout this karma.
3. Agama Karma : New Karmas that are created in this Birth, that are added to your Sanchita Karma.

I ma not sure when you say Karma Credit/debit ?.. be more elaborate on it .

dead_man
02 June 2010, 02:34 PM
why are u asking?

Ramakrishna
02 June 2010, 07:09 PM
Namaste,

Here is a guide that saidevoji posted in another thread relating to karma. I recommend everybody to read it. It pretty much covers everything related to karma and should answer any questions you have.

KARMA MANAGEMENT-
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=575&d=1275362830

Hare Krishna

saidevo
03 June 2010, 01:24 AM
namaste everyone.

As far as I have read and understood it:

• There is of course sukarma--good karma, which may be taken as credit, and kukarma--bad or negative karma, which is a debit.

• The point is, sukarma and kukarma don't offset each other. In other words, the karmic balance is not the sum total of debit and credit karmas. They are accounted separately.

• sukarma is experienced in the svarga--heavens, during a jIva's--individual soul's, afterlife, that is, disembodied life. The time we spend in heavens will be in proportion to our sukarma, which in turn will get reduced as we enjoy our stay in the heavens. The effect of sukarma in rebirth is by placement of the reborn jIva in better circumstances of life: parents, home, religion, country and so on.

• kukarma is experienced only on the earth with a gross human body. It is normally manifest as negative circumstances in our life, which includes diseases, and any deformities/defects in the body. Extreme kukarma is met with extreme circumstances: for example, if someone causes a violent death by murder, then he is more likely to die a violent death in the next or another life.

• However, kukarma is not experienced under the principle of 'an eye for eye'; that is, kukarma which is not extreme, such as caused by our negative and selfish desires prompted by the six viris--kAma (passion), krodha (anger), lobha (greed), moha (infatuation/delusion), mada (pride), mAtsarya (jealousy)--generally results in diseases and (spiritually) unfavourable circumstances in life.

• As explained in the booklet that Ramakrishna referred to, spiritual sAdhana by karma, bhakti and jnAna yogas, helps us reduce the burden of our kukarma, and gives us the strength and mental frame to face unfavourable circumstances.

• With such knowledge, we might remember that when we have some normal disease such as an ordinary fever, or any other ailment that will be cured in a short while and can be endured without unnecessarily heavy and serious medication, our suffering will help us reduce the burden of our kukarma. This is the reason that the Hindu medication system attempts to trace the root of an ailment and suggest parihAra--spiritual remedy, besides curative medication.

This is not to say that we should not take treatment/medication for non-serious ailments; only that as we suffer the effects of the ailment, we also get our the burden of our kukarma reduced.

All this could very well mean that since most of us (that very well includes me) are not capable of spiritual sAdhana which can make us jIvan-mukatas--liberated while living, in this life, we can consciously plan our karma management and thereby our future life in our births to come.

**********

ketaki1981
03 June 2010, 05:33 AM
yes vr76417,

by karmic credits i mean sukarma or good deeds.
by karmic debts i mean kukarma or bad deeds.

I want to know that does accumulated karma comprise both karmic cedits and karmic debts.

If yes , then (as they say we take birth because of accumulated karma), can i conclude that rebirth can happen because of any of the two (karmic credits or karmic debts).

yajvan
03 June 2010, 03:26 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


yes vr76417,

I want to know that does accumulated karma comprise both karmic cedits and karmic debts.
And who is the book-keeper?

praṇām

Ramakrishna
04 June 2010, 01:05 AM
Namaste ketaki1981,

I think I may understand what you are asking. You are speaking in very simplified terms, but accumulated karma is equal to karmic debt + karmic credit. Once the two are evenly balanced OR the karmic credit is more than the karmic debt, moksha is achieved. When it is said that we are reborn because of accumulated karma, it is because our karmic debt is more than our karmic credit. It would be very difficult to near impossible for karmic credit outweigh karmic debt in a lower life form. That is why we as humans have the best opportunity to have a positive or balanced accumulated karma and achieve moksha. This is my understanding.

Hare Krishna

ketaki1981
04 June 2010, 05:09 AM
Thanks ramakrishna....

But is it not that if karmic credit(good deeds) are more then too you will be reborn, as in such a case we cannot say that accumulated karma is zero.

For we are reborn because of accumulated karma. So until it becomes zero, we keep taking rebirth.

rkpande
05 June 2010, 02:13 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


And who is the book-keeper?

praṇām

Pranam Yajvan ji,

This is the most important question every body should ask, i had been contemplating on this for last 15 years and have some answers before i comment I would be delighted to read other member's take on this.
rk

sambya
05 June 2010, 03:09 AM
yes ketaki . you can conclude that rebirth can happen because of any of the two .

Avazjan
05 June 2010, 03:43 AM
Pranam Yajvan ji,

This is the most important question every body should ask, i had been contemplating on this for last 15 years and have some answers before i comment I would be delighted to read other member's take on this.
rk


Namaste.

My understanding of this matter is from what I have gleaned from my guru, self-inquiry, as well as a reading of some scriptures. I am not learned, and I am not self-realized, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

If someone contradicts me, they are probably right.

Anyway.

As I understand it, Yama and Kala are the "book-keepers." Yama assigns birth, and Kala weaves time - down to minutiae of circumstance. Yama and Kala can be seen as two aspects of the same coin - like so much else about Hindu "polytheism," and both also represent aspects of Vishnu and Shiva. Kala especially is associated with, or is, Shiva.

However, on a more esoteric level, the Self is the orchestrator of its own rise and fall, both in ignorant action (as the ahamkara afflicted jiva), and on higher levels of consciousness where these actions are weighed and results are meted out. In that, the Self is both an "accomplice" of Yama/Kala and one with them, as the deities comprise the provisionally true but partite (assuming aspects with attributes as discrete functions, separate from one another, has a tendency of concealing the indivisible, pure consciousness of the Self unless brahman is seen as the source of all manifestations) nature of consciousness of the jiva (angustha purusha IIRC).

The practical implication of the above is that the Self can absolve itself by assuming both the form of the sincere penitent, full of worship, adoration and reverence, as well as divinity towards which this reverential, adorative worship is directed. And go even further by reconciling this subject/object relationship as oneness. The methods/experiences I have encountered in regards to this have to do with:

A) The heart, where dwells the jivatman and paramatma (or angustha purusha). There is a well known metaphor about two birds sitting on the tree, one silently watching and the other devouring fruit - both sweet and bitter ("good" and "bad" karma). Yet both auspicious and inauspicious karma shackle it to the cycle of samsara. The bird eating is the atman (soul-self) through the mode of the jiva (living corporeal entity). The bird watching is the paramatma or angustha purusha. Depending on theology, this is associated with Mahavishnu, Paramashiva, both, neither (nirguna brahman, etc.) , etc. The two birds are actually are one and the same, but due to the derangement of the ego (ahamkara), two birds are experienced. It is like having double vision after being hit in the head, and your vision is swimming around. Once corrected, there is only one bird, perfectly actionless, the witness to everything, totally beyond karma. Through a process of identifying with the non-judgmental, non-participating witness, and watching one's own mind, one can gradually distance from the consumption and creation of karma and merge the atman into paramatman.

B) Pralaya (dissolution). This involves invoking the energy of dissolution, as personified typically by Mahakali/Durga. Enormous reservoirs of karma can be consumed effortlessly by Maa Durga's forces of dissolution/absolution. The cost is one's identity - the Jivatman willingly sacrifices itself on the altar of compassion for itself and others. In a Shaivite interpretation, the Jivatman is like a false Shiva (who is the cause of the Ahamkara), who, in perfect surrender, offers his head to Kali to remove, as many heads (lifetimes) as it takes in order for the true Shiva (purusha/Isvara/Saguna Brahman) to be revealed.

Everything that is contradictory to the direct realization of brahman is washed away. This can be quite painful, even brutal, but one must keep in mind that even the most dire curses of the goddess are in fact blessings designed purely for mukti. The metaphysics get intricate here in terms of what is past, present, future and eternity. Through dedicated realization of the following fact, the end of time (eternity) is experienced in the present as a continuous happening permeating all time. It is rather akin to modern theoretical physics (holographic principle, for instance, or the posited 11th dimension of M-theory.) Honestly, the similarities between realizations by the mystics of Bharat and modern discoveries and theories of physics is astonishing, but science has a long way to go to catch up. ;)

It is interesting to note the different purusha/prakriti, male/female relationships different paths conceptualize. It is quite common in some traditions to regard the atman as female. Others say the atman is sexless. Others regard the jivatman as an occluded purusha. I personally do not think these distinctions are important, as in my opinion the verbiage is too choked with the cultural imprimatur of the time in terms of what qualities were considered to be male or female, and it is more important to choose whichever relationship with the divine your heart sings to, which could mean a multitude of sadhanas practiced at different times in one's life, or even different time's of the day. One can be as male, surrendering to Paradevi at one time, and then as female, experiencing union with bhagavan, at another, even both simultaneously as an androgynous consciousness. But enough of my ramblings...

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can elaborate on the above and/or correct my errors and expound on the truth. I apologize for any falsehood, mistakes or lack of clarity. I hope this was of some help.


Namaste.

ketaki1981
06 June 2010, 07:09 AM
thanks Sambya, a long tym doubt cleared....

yajvan
09 June 2010, 06:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Just as a calf is able to find its parent even among a herd of a thousand cows, so are the acts of one's past birth able to recognize and visit the doer in this new life... mahābhārata, śanti parvan, 181st section

praṇām

TatTvamAsi
11 June 2010, 02:06 AM
Rebirth happens because of ACCUMULATED KARMA.

Is ACCUMULATED KARMA = karmic debit + karmic credit ?

If yes then can we conclude karmic debit or karmic credit. .... any one of these two would cause rebirth....

I have very little to add to what others have written here already about this, especially Saidevo's excellent post.

The main thing to keep in mind, pun-intended (:D), is that all these things are multi-dimensional; there are various factors that determine birth, death, karma, etc.

So applying modern mathematical, especially linear, logic to such concepts is futile. These concepts are akin to non-linear equations... approaching them requires a different mindset altogether.

Namaskar.

ketaki1981
11 June 2010, 03:45 AM
tattvam..... well i didnt mean that it is additn. by that leniar equation,i was indirectly saying does ACCUMULATED karma comprise BOTH debts & credits.

kallol
11 June 2010, 12:45 PM
Dear Ketaki,

We meet again on the same topic - but different forum. No - I am not going to repeat what we deliberated again. But as mentioned I would like to delve on the fundamentals or the basics of it.

Someone has pointed out that mathematical modelling and analysis might not be applicable to this. Perhaps at this point of time - it might be true. But who knows - may be we can develop something in this regard in future.

The reason for above is that Hinduism, particularly the knowledge part of it, is highly logical and scientific. Yes in the science part of it some part has already been discovered but much part is still left to be discovered.

Now I will explain the basics of birth. Not of us but of this universe. Without the birth of universe, we would not be born. So let us understand what makes the birth (should I say rebirth) of universe.

As we know (at least as of now) that universe is born out of big bang. What is this big bang phenomenon ?

The whole of this space is filled with energy (scientifically proven). Did we have a singularity of a huge concentration of energy - which resulted in big bang ? For this the energy needs to be moved.

Or it might be out of a scavanger black hole crossing the thresshold limit of accumulating mass. Might be possible but how did it start ?

Force moves particles but what moves energy ? Hinduism says - it is the volatile mind. The desire, ego, anger, lust, envy, etc - i.e. the feelings move the energy. We already know of electromagnetic brainwaves out of the volatility of the mind.

This universe manifests because of the volatility of minds and the unmanifests through some means (may be black holes). This cycle repeats again and again. There are theories in Hinduism on the intermediate state between the start of the manifestation and atoms taking shape, which might be the God particles which we are in search of.

This phenomenon of birth and rebirth percolates through all strata, which includes us also.

The body dies but the mind stays within the ocean of consciousness. Death is nothing but a long sleep (or unconscious state) to the next body. The continuity of the consciousness through our mind maintains the continuity of the spiritual journey of the mind in and out of the different bodies.

The levels of the feelings - once they become zero - they will not disturb the energy ocean (the unmanifested matter) and so the universe will not be born again (at macro level) and thus we will also not be born. This state is difficult to achieve as there are so many minds.

At micro level, the individual liberation is through bringing down the levels of the above mentioned parameters to zero and become neutral.

Karma by itself is neutral. But the packaging we put through our ego, desire, envy, lust, anger, etc use karma's presence to enhance or reduce the levels.

Sukarma reduces the level and duskarma increases.

The combination of the levels decide how the body & intellect are used by the mind. Thus one becomes Ramakrishna and one becomes terrorist.

Love and best wishes

ketaki1981
20 June 2010, 04:42 AM
great..

however, sukarma i think too causes rebirth, unless it is done without desire for result. if it is done with desire for result , then we will take rebirth to get that reward, if it was not fulfilled there and then.

kallol
21 June 2010, 10:26 AM
great..

however, sukarma i think too causes rebirth, unless it is done without desire for result. if it is done with desire for result , then we will take rebirth to get that reward, if it was not fulfilled there and then.

Yes you are right. However as the level decreases the desire also decreases and tapers off.

There may be the desire for moksha - as one tunes to that direction and moves, the desires reduces by rule and idealy becomes zero at end (ideal state which is unachievable).

Love and best wishes