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isavasya
14 June 2010, 12:36 PM
Hello members,

I have some questions regarding preachings of madhvacharya, I will be happy to get some clarification. I am quite surprised to see some preachings of tattvavaad which are not present in any other sect of sanatan dharm or even of vaishnavism. If I am not wrong tattvavaad classifies tattvas of two knd, svatantra (self existent or lord visnu) and para tantra (dependent ones). Among conscious entities, there are are two types, tadasprsta and dukhasprsta. Lakshmi devi is the only tadaprastha -That is eternally without suffering. On the other hand, dukhasprsta are of two kind, vimuktas and dukha-samstha. In dukha-samstha there is one category of mukti-yogya (who can acheive liberation) and other is of mukti-ayogya, that is those who are unfit for liberation or moksha, they are eternally to suffer in darkness.

Madhvacharya preached that mukti-ayogya beings are eternally dammed for sufferings and can never acheive moksha. . Even Lord vishnu does not change their status, and they are simply to suffer. Among mukti-ayogyas there are two categories.

1.Nitya-samsharin or those who never get out of birth and death cycle . They have to eternally suffer in birth cycle.
2.Tamoyogyas -Those who are only fit for darkness. Either they are thrown in hell for some reason or simply born in hell.

Now I will Like to seek answers to following question.




1)Did madhvacharya derived this concept logically/rationally or has he got any backing from authentic scriptures, particularly from shruti ? (I ask this question because this concept is simply against the preachings of almost all philosophies of sanatan dharm)

grames
15 June 2010, 06:04 AM
Dear isavasya,

Nice question and i am sure it is very unique position of TattvaVada and most importantly various people explain this Tripartion of Jivas with different understanding and agenda.

With my exposure to some vaishnava traditions, i do not think classification of jivas is new to TattvaVada alone. Nitya, Mukta and Badda jiva classification is part of almost all the four Vaishnava Sampradayas and even the oldest Vaishnava Traditions of "Alwars" of Sri Sampradaya accepts this and put the "Alwars" under the label "Nitya" Sooris. ( Ever liberated Great Souls). Gaudiyas also accept this classification of Jivas and also go one step further to attach their RasaVada principle of Rasa as in different strength in different Jivas.

There are so many scripture stating that, only when a jiva is in the mode of "Satva", it becomes eligible to progress towards Mukthi and only with this eligibility such jiva gets the Grace of Lord Hari who only can grant the Moksha to such Jiva by dissolving all of their Karma. What is this "Satva" and what it refers to? This is where Sri Madhva's system sticks to its foundation of "Svabhava" of Jiva which is the cause of jivas existence and progress as well as achievement of life goal as Moksha as long as the Svabhava is Satva. Is it same as the acquired material guna of Satva? No. Such material Satva is still binding to karma and Lord instructs in BG, to shed all three gunas but stay in Satva which is the SvaBhava of Arjuna, is the sole proof of this 'SvaBhava" of being Satvic or rajasic or tamasmic.

So, if the entire TattvaVada has to be accepted then

1. Jivas - SvaBhava has to be accepted - It has various Pramanas to justify
2. If Jiva's intrinsic nature or SvaBhava is accepted, then such SvaBhava has to have differences because it is the SvaBhava of Jiva which differentiate them from each other.
3. Then two possibilities of nature of Jiva's differences is possible. One all being Satvic intrinsically but act only due to the acquired nature of their conditioned life. The other possibility is, such intrinsic difference itself is their very own nature and they will be then having all the mode of Satvic, Rajasic and Tamasmic gunas. TatvaVada takes the second choice and it is only because Jiva's intrinsic nature of of Satva, it develops devotion at one point of time towards Sri Hari and attains its eternal destination of Mukthi. A Rajasic soul (unlike grouped as MukthiAyogya) has possibility of either attaining Mukthi or just transmigrating in samsara ( so 50 50 chance rather than never Mukthi). A Tamo Jiva never turns towards Lord and unlike the belief or explanation that Lord abandons them, it is the very same Lord who provide them to enjoy their Tamasmic nature with the ultimate environment.

What if all the Jiva's svaBhava is Satvic but only because of their acquired nature they act differently? I have no answer to this wrt TattvaVada but this is the stand point of all other Vaishnava traditions where Jiva is considered intrinsically as "SuddaSattva" but acquire the modes of material nature once its under the spell of Maya.

devotee
16 June 2010, 12:10 AM
Namaste Isa,

The Yogis say that all of us are moving towards liberation. The time/Kala is taking all of us in a cycle & we all are evolving towards perfection. So, the concept of any "mukti-ayogya" doesn't make sense at all !

Yes, one can be a mukti-ayaogaya within a certain timeframe but cannot be eternally. If that was true then this cannot be termed as Lila at all ! Then it becomes a serious business.

In BG, Lord Krishna says that all the Bhutas appear during the day time of Brahma and dissolve during the night time of Brahma. It there is total dissolution of all Bhutas during the night time of Brahma then who suffers and where ?

How can the ever blissful Atma suffer for eternity ? Can a delusion be more powerful than the Omnipotent Himself ?

OM

isavasya
16 June 2010, 07:07 PM
Dear isavasya,

Nice question and i am sure it is very unique position of TattvaVada and most importantly various people explain this Tripartion of Jivas with different understanding and agenda.

With my exposure to some vaishnava traditions, i do not think classification of jivas is new to TattvaVada alone. Nitya, Mukta and Badda jiva classification is part of almost all the four Vaishnava Sampradayas and even the oldest Vaishnava Traditions of "Alwars" of Sri Sampradaya accepts this and put the "Alwars" under the label "Nitya" Sooris. ( Ever liberated Great Souls). Gaudiyas also accept this classification of Jivas and also go one step further to attach their RasaVada principle of Rasa as in different strength in different Jivas.

.

Namaste grames ji,

Thanks for the reply, yes this is definitely a unique position of tatvavaad, you are right, people lost in tamo gun, can not go towards moksha, how ever what makes tatvavaad different is that according to tatvavvad, souls may be born with different guna, and some may remain in their intrinsic guna till eternity. As I have not studied tatvavaad is detail, i won't like to make any more assumption. However I have had conversations regarding this with few srivaishnavas and gaudiyas, they do not support this philosophy, because according to VA, all souls are part of narayana, so equally capable of moksha.

Of what I have read about mukti-ayogyas, they are to eternally remain in samsara, not just for one kalpa, 1maha kalpa, or any finite time period. I will be happy if some one corrects me.



Namaste Isa,


Yes, one can be a mukti-ayaogaya within a certain timeframe but cannot be eternally. If that was true then this cannot be termed as Lila at all ! Then it becomes a serious business.


Namast devotee ji,

I agree with you, in most of beliefs, souls are under certain guna or agyaan for certain timeframe, their ultimate destiny is moksha only, how ever according to tatvavaad, souls are real like brahman,also they are not created by brahman. Even material universe which is created by prakriti is not created by brahman in this philosophy. you can consider to see it from point of view like samkya darshan, it is pluralistic philosophy.