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Storm
14 June 2010, 11:17 PM
First off, my friend Odion told me to point out that Thunderbird is a Native American spirit, not the television show. :)

Anyway, I grew up in the West Texas desert, which boasts awe-inspiring storms.

Wind as strong as the roots of a mountain, yet feather-soft on the skin. Thunder that shakes the ground and makes your bones hum. Torrents of stinging rain, lightning and twisters dancing in the clouds.

When I was a little girl, they terrified me. I remember huddling in bed, near tears, as they raged outside my window. But one day, something changed.

I was perhaps 10 years old, playing in the park on a high summer day. It was blistering hot, with nary a cloud in the sky. Out of nowhere, there was a wind that nearly knocked me down and dropped the temperature a good 10 degrees. We looked in its direction, and saw a line of black on the horizon, so fine at first but growing fast. Not thirty seconds passed before it took up half the sky, and you could hear the rain hissing on the ground as the storm approached.

I should have been scared. I wasn't. Instead, a fierce joy filled me, expanding til I felt I could fly. And I wanted to. I wanted to dance in the rain til I dropped. I wanted to sing until my voice gave out and revel in the wildness of the storm. It was as if God were coming down to PLAY!

It didn't happen, though. My father snatched me up, ran to the car, and I spent a very restless night in the basement. :)

That was my first encounter with Thunderbird, bringer of storms, and I loved him well for many years. He brings life and renewal to the desert, cloaked in destruction. I love the paradox of it, the balance.

I haven't felt him in a very long time, though. I moved to Portland, OR in my 20s, and he doesn't have much presence here. I miss him.

Anyway, over time, I've learned a bit (not much, sadly) about the Hindu pantheon, and find myself drawn to Shiva. I wonder if it's because I sense a kinship with my beloved Thunderbird, the same purpose of destroying for the sake of creation.

I asked this on another forum years ago, and they said “No, the Hindu rain God is [I can't remember the name].” But I think they missed the point. It's not the rain, per se. It's the paradox, and the feral, violent joy. From what little I understand, that's Shiva in a nutshell.

What do you think?

saidevo
15 June 2010, 12:43 AM
namaste Storm.

Your graphic description of Nature's operation desert storm, and your experience thereunder, is a treat to read.

• In Hinduism, although Indra is the god of rain, in public memory, VaruNa is associated with it, since he is the god of the ocean, and rain is only because of the ocean. He is partnered with Mitra, the sun god, to conjure up the dark rainy clouds, and then Indra drives and splits them with his thunderbolt into torrents of rain. Indra, Mitra and VaruNa are highly revered gods in the Rig Veda.

• Although Shiva is a god of dissolution and regeneration, and his consort in the form of KALI plays it with him in their cosmic dance, I would rather associate Shiva with a haMsa--swan, than a thunderbird, for all his mangala--auspiciousness.

• Desert storms after their necessary initial hullabaloo, create many a fertile oasis, where swans swim gliding on the breeze-driven ripples of water, under a clear sky with mellow sunshine. The swans in this atomosphere, seem to meditate on their Self which is Shiva and silently chant shivoham--I am the haMsa that is Shiva!

When a jIva--individual soul, is stuck long enough in the tamas--humdrum, of samsAra--worldly life, and pines for release from the cycle of births and death which no longer appear hunky-dory to it, Shiva will step in with his graceful dance of dissolution of karmas and elevate the jIva to the state of a haMsa, and then, eventually, let it merge with him.

NayaSurya
15 June 2010, 05:07 AM
Beautiful story<3

I have experienced this same moment. During the great tornado outbreak in 1974. It is something to behold...once you have seen such things it forever makes an impression.

MahaHrada
15 June 2010, 05:12 AM
The auspicous dark blue moonson cloud heavy with water , thunder and lightning, giver of life and fertility, that approaches where ocean meets the land that is our mother kali and with her comes the lightning bearing Chinnamastika

ksudhA tvam sarvabhUtAnAm velA tvam sAgarasya cha
You are hunger in all living beings, you are the shore of the oceans.
Adya strotram

atanu
15 June 2010, 06:43 AM
I asked this on another forum years ago, and they said “No, the Hindu rain God is [I can't remember the name].” But I think they missed the point. It's not the rain, per se. It's the paradox, and the feral, violent joy. From what little I understand, that's Shiva in a nutshell.

What do you think?

Namaste Storm

An excellent post. The key is the joy you mentioned.

I feel the same way when I stand on a mountain top and look down below at the brilliant hued water; the intervening expanse and the feeling of infinity brings joy. I feel the same way when I look up at an eagle circling above. I feel the same way when I wake up at 4.00 AM and experience a light breeze flowing near the region of heart and a light joyful feeling.

Yajvanji and me, we will tell you that this is the joy of the Self, felt only when the mind temporarily is lull and yet the awareness is in full strength. When you see an eagle in the sky, the consciousness will leave the body and before it grabs the eagle, it is free and you experience Shiva - your very primeval Self. Same, when you wake up early and feel palpably the quivering joy. This joy is said to be a constant character of the Self, but revealed only when the Mind is lull.


Rig Vedic deity Rudra (same as Varuna-Indra-Mitra-Agni and Shiva) is known as the tempestuous storm, the thunder, the rain maker, showerer of bliss, the Lord of immortality and whatever of immese infinite power you can think of.

But the joy is the characteristic.

But as Saidevoji mentioned (and I think it is a paradox) that one can consciously get hold of this joy only in a mode which is entire opposite of the impetuous mode.


Om Namah Shivaya

Madhuri
15 June 2010, 07:07 AM
In essense Storm, God can be seen in everything. Where we choose to see the Divine, there He is is fully present. Krishna says just this.

To see Shiva in this storm is completely valid. We see the pattern of creation and destruction everywhere, and this is Shiva. As Atanu pointed out, Rudra is a name for Shiva and in Rig Veda he is associated with wind and storms.

Eastern Mind
15 June 2010, 08:05 AM
Vannakkam:

I write from a pure Saiva perspective, so bear with me.

In a sense, it's Siva, as all is Siva. But the concept of destruction (when its limited to that) for Siva is a western dictionary misleading one, that has some negative connotations to it. Saidevo used the word dissolution, which is a better conveyor of meaning. But to me, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, are contained within Siva.

Siva is Primal Soul, Causal reality, Energy flowing through all form, and more. So its not just the storms that connote Siva to the Saiva but also birth, wind fire, meditation, trees, karma, all words, this wretched computer thingy, your innermost Self, and more.

So Thunderbird is part of Siva, but not Siva.

Aum Namasivaya

Storm
15 June 2010, 09:38 AM
Thank you all for your responses. I'm going to reflect on them a bit.

Storm
15 June 2010, 10:24 AM
Namaste Storm
Quick question, should I say "namaste" in return? Showing respect is very important to me, but I don't know how it would be taken.


An excellent post. The key is the joy you mentioned.
Absolutely. :)


I feel the same way when I stand on a mountain top and look down below at the brilliant hued water; the intervening expanse and the feeling of infinity brings joy. I feel the same way when I look up at an eagle circling above. I feel the same way when I wake up at 4.00 AM and experience a light breeze flowing near the region of heart and a light joyful feeling.
Yes. My word for this feeling is kaleria (kah-LEE-ree-uh), and it can be found in virtually everything. To quote the Discovery Channel, "the world is just awesome." ;)

Does it have a Hindu name?


Yajvanji and me, we will tell you that this is the joy of the Self, felt only when the mind temporarily is lull and yet the awareness is in full strength. When you see an eagle in the sky, the consciousness will leave the body and before it grabs the eagle, it is free and you experience Shiva - your very primeval Self. Same, when you wake up early and feel palpably the quivering joy. This joy is said to be a constant character of the Self, but revealed only when the Mind is lull.
Interesting. I've always viewed kaleria as an unpredictable gift, that strikes without warning. Never really pondered what might trigger it.


Rig Vedic deity Rudra (same as Varuna-Indra-Mitra-Agni and Shiva) is known as the tempestuous storm, the thunder, the rain maker, showerer of bliss, the Lord of immortality and whatever of immese infinite power you can think of.
Tell me more. What is his role? Is he an Avatar, like Krishna?


But the joy is the characteristic.
Always. :)


But as Saidevoji mentioned (and I think it is a paradox) that one can consciously get hold of this joy only in a mode which is entire opposite of the impetuous mode.
I'll reflect on this, thank you.

Storm
15 June 2010, 10:33 AM
Vannakkam:

I write from a pure Saiva perspective, so bear with me.

In a sense, it's Siva, as all is Siva. But the concept of destruction (when its limited to that) for Siva is a western dictionary misleading one, that has some negative connotations to it. Saidevo used the word dissolution, which is a better conveyor of meaning. But to me, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, are contained within Siva.

Siva is Primal Soul, Causal reality, Energy flowing through all form, and more. So its not just the storms that connote Siva to the Saiva but also birth, wind fire, meditation, trees, karma, all words, this wretched computer thingy, your innermost Self, and more.

So Thunderbird is part of Siva, but not Siva.

Aum Namasivaya
Oh, I didn't mean to ask if the were the same thing, precisely. Just of similar nature.

I may be revealing my ignorance here, but I understand Shiva to be something... "higher" than a deity. Further up the totem pole, as it were.

From my limited studies, Shiva seems to be a cosmic force, the very embodiment of entropy, the principle of destruction (or dissolution, as someone else put it), clearing the old to make way for the new. Not quite God (Brahman?), but not a deity, either.

Thunderbird, in contrast, is a sky spirit, an entity, and a rather limited one at that. He may be born of the principle Shiva embodies, but he is the flute, not the orchestra.

Am I on the right track?

ETA: Your use of "Primal Soul" sparked another thread, Brahman? (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=45850#post45850) Hope to see you there. :)

Madhuri
15 June 2010, 11:50 AM
Hi Storm,
just to clarify for you, Shiva is God. From my perspective, Vishnu and Shiva are One, non-different. What I see as most confusing is that in the creation of the material (as opposed to Spiritual) universe, Maha Vishnu manifests from his self, the trimurti: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. These manifestations, or expansions are responsible for creating (Brahma), maintaining (Vishnu) and destroying (Shiva) the material universe.

So to simplify:

Vishnu/Shiva(God) expands from his Self: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva of the material universe.

If anyone can add or edit what I have explained, please feel free.

Eastern Mind
15 June 2010, 12:02 PM
Vannakkam Storm:

I think you are looking for some kind of all-encompassing idea that applies to all Hindus. This is just not possible because there are many takes or 'religions' if you like within the Sanatana Dharma. That is why I prefaced my statement with 'from a pure Saiva perspective'. Now that perspective would certainly not hold true for all Hindus, and indeed even very few on this forum.

For a Saivite, Siva is Primal Soul, (worshipped as Nataraja) Absolute Reality (worshipped as Lingam) Sat-chit-ananda, energy flowing through all form, (worshipped as Ardhinarisvara) and also Dakshinamoorthy (This is the common one in North India) Siva is has form AND is formless, is beyond time form and space, is immanent and transcendant.

So form a Saiva perspective, Siva is all the God you need. Its all right there.

Aum Namasivaya

Storm
15 June 2010, 12:22 PM
Hi Storm,
just to clarify for you, Shiva is God. From my perspective, Vishnu and Shiva are One, non-different. What I see as most confusing is that in the creation of the material (as opposed to Spiritual) universe, Maha Vishnu manifests from his self, the trimurti: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. These manifestations, or expansions are responsible for creating (Brahma), maintaining (Vishnu) and destroying (Shiva) the material universe.

So to simplify:

Vishnu/Shiva(God) expands from his Self: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva of the material universe.

If anyone can add or edit what I have explained, please feel free.
Are you a Saivite, too, then?


Vannakkam Storm:

I think you are looking for some kind of all-encompassing idea that applies to all Hindus. This is just not possible because there are many takes or 'religions' if you like within the Sanatana Dharma.
Not quite. I was under the impression that there were a handful of universal ideas, but also aware that "Hinduism" is a label Europeans slapped onto a diverse body of philosophies.


That is why I prefaced my statement with 'from a pure Saiva perspective'. Now that perspective would certainly not hold true for all Hindus, and indeed even very few on this forum.
And I very much appreciate your assistance. :) Here to learn, forgive the ignorance.


For a Saivite, Siva is Primal Soul, (worshipped as Nataraja) Absolute Reality (worshipped as Lingam) Sat-chit-ananda, energy flowing through all form, (worshipped as Ardhinarisvara) and also Dakshinamoorthy (This is the common one in North India) Siva is has form AND is formless, is beyond time form and space, is immanent and transcendant.

So form a Saiva perspective, Siva is all the God you need. Its all right there.

Aum Namasivaya
That makes sense, thank you.

Madhuri
15 June 2010, 09:44 PM
Are you a Saivite, too, then?



If I have to label myself I would say I am a Vaishnava. But I do not disagree with Saivism.

atanu
19 June 2010, 03:01 PM
Quick question, should I say "namaste" in return? Showing respect is very important to me, but I don't know how it would be taken.

Namaste Storm

Not necessary. Use any form of address that suits you.


word for this feeling is kaleria (kah-LEE-ree-uh), and it can be found in virtually everything. To quote the Discovery Channel, "the world is just awesome." ;)

Does it have a Hindu name?

Hindu name for this is simply ananda, the nearest english equivalent being bliss. Ananda is essential and necessary nature of Brahman, in addition to existence (Truth or Sat) and Intelligence (Chit). All beings are existing and intelligent. The ananda (kaleria) aspect is hidden. Please note that the Sat-Chit-Ananda, the Brahman, the God, is so in unbroken continous way. Thus happiness, which has a counterpart called misery is not Ananda. Similarly, english 'truth' which has a counterpart called 'false' is not the 'sat', which signifies Brahman.

(I took time to come back to this thread for fear of failing with words).


Interesting. I've always viewed kaleria as an unpredictable gift, that strikes without warning. Never really pondered what might trigger it.

The most important point is here. Ananda is not an unpredictable gift but it is the constant substratum of our existence. We do not experience it because our miserly thoughts hide it. Shiva you saw in Thunderbird was in you (and also in thunderbird).


Tell me more. What is his role? Is he an Avatar, like Krishna?

Shiva-Rudra, as per Veda and Vedanta scripture is the Totem Pole, the substratum that holds up the pole, and the being at the head of the pole.

We can keep on singing without end.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
19 June 2010, 07:24 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté storm,



Tell me more. What is his role? Is he an Avatar, like Krishna?


you may wish to know more about Him from his names and their defintion...Here is 108 names of Śiva i.e.
शिव अष्टोत्तरशत नामावलि
śiva aṣṭottaraśata nāmāvali

śiva - is 'auspicious', and we know we are talking of Śivabhaṭṭāraka,the Great Lord
aṣṭama - 8 or the 8th
stotra - a hymn of praise
śata - 100 : hence aṣṭama the 8th + śata 100 = 108
nāma - by name or name called
vali - this is also written bali - which means tribute, offering, gift, oblation; now vali is still complimentary as it suggests a line or a stroke made with fragrant unguents on the person Hence - (we are) offering (vali or bali) the 108 (aṣṭama + śata) names (nāma) of praise (stotra) of Śiva . Or, (we are) offering this hymn in praise of Śiva, 108 names.

The HDF post with this offer: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3411 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3411)


praṇām

atanu
19 June 2010, 11:42 PM
Storm may wish to read the following.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=573

Om Namah Shivaya

Storm
27 June 2010, 09:26 AM
Namaste Storm

Not necessary. Use any form of address that suits you.



Hindu name for this is simply ananda, the nearest english equivalent being bliss. Ananda is essential and necessary nature of Brahman, in addition to existence (Truth or Sat) and Intelligence (Chit). All beings are existing and intelligent. The ananda (kaleria) aspect is hidden. Please note that the Sat-Chit-Ananda, the Brahman, the God, is so in unbroken continous way. Thus happiness, which has a counterpart called misery is not Ananda. Similarly, english 'truth' which has a counterpart called 'false' is not the 'sat', which signifies Brahman.

(I took time to come back to this thread for fear of failing with words).



The most important point is here. Ananda is not an unpredictable gift but it is the constant substratum of our existence. We do not experience it because our miserly thoughts hide it. Shiva you saw in Thunderbird was in you (and also in thunderbird).



Shiva-Rudra, as per Veda and Vedanta scripture is the Totem Pole, the substratum that holds up the pole, and the being at the head of the pole.

We can keep on singing without end.

Om Namah Shivaya
Lovely, thank you.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté storm,




you may wish to know more about Him from his names and their defintion...Here is 108 names of Śiva i.e.
शिव अष्टोत्तरशत नामावलि
śiva aṣṭottaraśata nāmāvali
śiva - is 'auspicious', and we know we are talking of Śivabhaṭṭāraka,the Great Lord
aṣṭama - 8 or the 8th
stotra - a hymn of praise
śata - 100 : hence aṣṭama the 8th + śata 100 = 108
nāma - by name or name called
vali - this is also written bali - which means tribute, offering, gift, oblation; now vali is still complimentary as it suggests a line or a stroke made with fragrant unguents on the person Hence - (we are) offering (vali or bali) the 108 (aṣṭama + śata) names (nāma) of praise (stotra) of Śiva . Or, (we are) offering this hymn in praise of Śiva, 108 names.

The HDF post with this offer: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3411 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3411)


praṇām


Storm may wish to read the following.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=573

Om Namah Shivaya
Thanks for the links!

rainycity
02 July 2010, 10:19 AM
Indra isn't the god of physical rain, Rudra isn't the god of physical winds and storms. They are gods of inner, spiritual and psychic forces described as rain, winds, storms, etc.