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bp789
17 June 2010, 05:51 PM
Okay, I was reading this article online about Hindus and Muslims in the US (I think) and how while they have no problem having sex, drinking, or doing drugs, if they see a fellow Hindu or Muslim eating beef or pork, then it's automatically blasphemy.

I was reading the comments of the article and it said apparently that it's not forbidden for Hindus to do stuff like that because ancient Indians had to eat beef for survival and it was considered a good food for Brahmins. Here's the link to the comments.

http://www.chicagoflame.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&ustory_id=9509b62c-104e-480f-8455-4404f2835c83#36773128-290c-4a4b-9159-229c70a5c1e8

Now my parents are from a very conservative Hindu sect which forbids eating meat (onion and garlic too, but I don't really follow that lol), drinking alcohol, doing drugs, or pre-marital sex. I'm not going go do all that stuff if it isn't, but I'm pretty confused.

Eastern Mind
17 June 2010, 07:13 PM
Vannakkam bp789:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the opinions expressed by those commenters regarding sex, drugs are all okay but meat eating isn't is just ludicrous from almost 99% of Hindus point of view. Of course the western media, controlled by Christians, secularists, and atheists does whatever it can to portray Hindus as idiotic.

Just read around these forums and you'll find out what most more traditional people think.

Aum Namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
17 June 2010, 11:21 PM
If you drink alcohol or do drugs, you're harming your own body. However, if you eat meat (especially beef) you're responsible for taking the life of another creature solely for your own sense gratification (and cows are sacred in Hinduism). Premarital sex is more a social taboo, it's not really hurting anyone if both parties consent but rather causing shame to traditional Hindu families.

MahaHrada
18 June 2010, 06:31 AM
If meat alcohol, drugs and sex are prohibited in Hinduism than the whole country of Nepal and most himalayan regions must follow some other religion :)
Almost everybody in Nepal is using bhang at least on Shivaratri, even if the US goverment, especially the Reagan administration tried the utmost to outlaw drug use, still the king was donating 500 kg charas to the sadhus and shiva devotees assembled at Pashupatinath every year to celebrate Mahashivaratri according to the ancient customs.
At dashain (durgapuja) even in the household of a pious vaishnava brahmin where i was living, 3 goats where sacrificed and the meat was eaten as prasad by all. Many nepali hindus have the custom to go to dakshinkali temple every saturday to offer a goat or chicken and some alcohol and they gather for a family picnic to eat and drink the prasad in the surrounding of the temple. There is also a Festival (Indra Jatra) dedicated to Indra and Bhairava where out of the mouth of a huge metal murti of the head of Bhairava alcohol is spouting in a continous stream and everybody goes there and drink it directly from the mouth of the deity. Of course other places have other customs especialy in the south of india people are quite different from the Himalayan region and the west, north and east of india. But even in the south, for instance in kerala, especially the non brahmin castes, have customs like pashu bali, alcohol and drug use which are celebrated side by side with vegetarian bali and brahmin customs at the same festivals until recent times. With the rise and domination of the monotheistic cults like Islam and Christianity many of these ancient religious customs were demonized as immoral, suppressed, ignored, outlawed or obliterated.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2673/3884989644_42d6d18deb.jpg
Sveta Bhairava, the white bhairava in Nepal opens the doors only during Indra jatra. Devotee drinks the Alcohol
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/3884198149_0636604b12.jpg
Devotees lining up for drinking the alcohol from Bhairavas mouth

Very good pictures from Dakshinkali: follow this link:

http://www.marcellogambini.it/Dakshin%20Kali.htm

Madhuri
18 June 2010, 09:07 AM
Hi bp,

I really don't know about the history of beef eating in India and so cannot comment on it. It is probable that the idea of the cow being sacred came at a particular point in history, rather than being a sentiment held sincethe begining of mankind. Whatever though, what people thought or think does not affect my sentiments toward cows, which I have lived with for a number of years and can vouch for their beautiful and loving nature. I would never want to cause harm to a cow, and I equally dislike the idea of hurting any sentient creature for good and logical reasons.

As for the sex and alcohol, I think that this is easier to understand that you may realise. People are silly. Its that simple. Really quite ridiculous, absurd, exasperating. Whatever. That's what humans are/can be.
I think that people focus so much on things like beef or pork/ham eating because it is more unique whereas sex and alcohol are considered no-nos by so many groups. And most do it anyway, so its easier to overlook or ignore.

I also think that a lot of people realise that the idea of illicit sex is contextual. Of course it was a bad idea throughout history and in cultures where women have so little power next to men that falling pregnant outside of marriage was a horrible situation for the woman and child. It still can lead to bad situations now, but people have more excuses now- contraceptives, women can be independent and work, get government support etc. And don't forget that its such a huge physical temptation that the fat that society is sex-crazed makes it near impossible to abstain and I think people in general can excuse it easily.

Alcohol is something else. I don't think people are aware of all the things that various religious groups are and are not aupposed to do. I don't think it ever occurred to my friends to question my consumption of alcohol (on those rare occasions that I actually had some). I don't think they realised that its a no-no. Hell, lots of them are Christian but that doesn't stop them.

So in other words, it comes down to the fact that being forbidden cow/pig is unique and thus a kind of symbol that people come to associate with that particular religion, unlike sex and alcohol which are hardly unique at all- quite boring really, and thus easy to ignore.

sambya
18 June 2010, 09:24 AM
consumption of meat , alcohol or sex etc are by no means prohibited in hinduism . it is very much there and sometimes within rituals itself !!

but for a person desiring quick spiritual upliftment its best to put them aside along with evrything else that agitates the mind and delays the process of chittasuddhi .

Madhuri
18 June 2010, 09:26 AM
Guys, he is talking about beef and pork specifically, not meat-eating in general.

isavasya
18 June 2010, 09:32 AM
I was reading the comments of the article and it said apparently that it's not forbidden for Hindus to do stuff like that because ancient Indians had to eat beef for survival and it was considered a good food for Brahmins. Here's the link to the comments.

Beef is absolutely not allowed for hindus. Beef was never eaten by hindus, it's just a imaginary assumption made by westerners who have tried to interpret vedas but have completely failed. There were some sects like left handed tantriks who might have consumed meat(but even they didn't consumed beef meat). Also in the link you gave some one wrote, It was influence of buddha that Hindus became vegetarians, Well that's a big non-sense, Buddha himself died after consuming stale pork. And dalai lama is a non-vegy.


See the main point is vedic sanskrit is not understood properly today, each sanskrit word can have many meanings. If they are not translated properly false meanings can come out, just as it has in westerners/communists translations. Literal translations can be very dangerous.




Now my parents are from a very conservative Hindu sect which forbids eating meat (onion and garlic too, but I don't really follow that lol), drinking alcohol, doing drugs, or pre-marital sex. I'm not going go do all that stuff if it isn't, but I'm pretty confused.

Well alcohol is a tamsik drink (fit for demons), so not advised, pre-martial sex is definitely unethical and immoral, also if you want to live sattvic life, then do not consume any tamsic/rajsic food. For example I have habit of drinking coca-cola, and that has made me complete insomniac. Unfortunately I can't give up coca-cola

sambya
18 June 2010, 09:39 AM
as an ofshoot to this main discussion , i have heard about go-medha yajna much like the famous ashwa-medha .

does anyone here knows or has the exact scriptural texts of that sacrifice ? i want to know what was that all about ?!!!

Madhuri
18 June 2010, 09:43 AM
Beef is absolutely not allowed for hindus. Beef was never eaten by hindus, it's just a imaginary assumption made by westerners who have tried to interpret vedas but have completely failed. There were some sects like left handed tantriks who might have consumed meat(but even they didn't consumed beef meat). Also in the link you gave some one wrote, It was influence of buddha that Hindus became vegetarians, Well that's a big non-sense, Buddha himself died after consuming stale pork. And dalai lama is a non-vegy.


See the main point is vedic sanskrit is not understood properly today, each sanskrit word can have many meanings. If they are not translated properly false meanings can come out, just as it has in westerners/communists translations. Literal translations can be very dangerous.



Well alcohol is a tamsik drink (fit for demons), so not advised, pre-martial sex is definitely unethical and immoral, also if you want to live sattvic life, then do not consume any tamsic/rajsic food. For example I have habit of drinking coca-cola, and that has made me complete insomniac. Unfortunately I can't give up coca-cola

I just want to point out that it was Brahmins who supposedly did not eat any meat but the other castes certainly did, certainly do now (according to stories like the Mahabharata).

Also, you said alcohol is fit for demons. Well, it might be bad for humans but I'm pretty sure the demigods enjoyed getting intoxicated now and then!

I disagree that pre-marital sex is immoral/unethical. I think that is largely contextual. In many cases I would agree but I think there are situations when it is neither.

Eastern Mind
18 June 2010, 09:49 AM
Vannakkam,

One only needs common sense to understand alcohol. You don't really need to go to the scriptures at all. Just go to a bar and observe the people. Read the newspaper for traffic fatalities. It is almost always accompanied by "Police say alcohol was probably involved." Look at health statistics, AA, and the appearance of rehab clinics, and marital or family disputes.

So from this common sense comes "drink responsibly" and one way to do that is to abstain entirely. I personally abstain because alcohol is like a headache pill for me. But I have no problem with someone having a couple of pops to socialise.

Within ritual, that is probably another matter altogether. I'm not familiar with tantric sects who imbibe as part of the sacred process.

Aum Namasivaya

isavasya
18 June 2010, 11:02 AM
I just want to point out that it was Brahmins who supposedly did not eat any meat but the other castes certainly did, certainly do now (according to stories like the Mahabharata).

See it is a big myth that brahmins are vegetarians and non-brahmins are not, actually it is not caste but sect which decides who are vegetarians and who are not, except for some vaishyas who are mostly vegetarians, irrespective of region and sect.

I have met many people and seen many cultures of india, there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are hardcore Non-vegetarians, like Maithli brahmans, nepali brahmans, kashmiri brahmans, himachali brahmans, Gaud saraswat brahmans, bengali brahmans etc. Most of these sub-castes are traditional meat eaters, not just of today. Sachin tendulkar, lata mangeshkar, sunil gavaskar all fit in gaud saraswat category and they all are non-vegy.On the same maadwaris, agarwals, are 100% vegetarians. They come in vaishya category. Also there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are pure vegetarians.




Also, you said alcohol is fit for demons. Well, it might be bad for humans but I'm pretty sure the demigods enjoyed getting intoxicated now and then!

There is nothing called demi-god in hinduism, please stop abusing our devtas by taking terms from iskcon. Second devtas, including VISNU himself drank soma, which was not alcohol, but energy drink, which was required to give them strength in fights against asuras (demons).

Also Alcohol is definitely bad, if you see it on average, alcohol can bring no good, but it can bring many bads,alcohol can lead to wife-beating, making one child abuser, in developing cancer, My mom and dad are doctor, they say 50% of their patients acquire
problems from alcohol only. so alcohol is detrimental to society.



I disagree that pre-marital sex is immoral/unethical. I think that is largely contextual. In many cases I would agree but I think there are situations when it is neither.

I am not saying, pre-martial sex with consent is crime, but it is definitely not moral, nor ethical, from Hindu dharms perspective. I wouldn't advice it to anyone.



as an ofshoot to this main discussion , i have heard about go-medha yajna much like the famous ashwa-medha .

does anyone here knows or has the exact scriptural texts of that sacrifice ? i want to know what was that all about ?!!!


Hello sambya ji,


well, I am not a scholar but i will like to point out, a sanskrit word doesn't necessarily carries one meaning, for example if we go by literal translations, then some vedic verses can give illogical meanings.


A respected women very well versed in vedas pointed out fallacies in literal translations of following vedic verses in one website. I am quoting from there




Taittiriyaranyaka 9-10-6
ahamannamahamannamahamannam
ahamannamannamadantamaadmi )


If we take literal meaning of this verse, it says, ‘aham annam & aham admi’, means i am food and I am the eater, now how can one eat himself??? so if we take literal meaning we can also say vedas preach canabalism.






Taittiriyaranyaka 10-1-15

aardram jvalati jyotirahamasmi |
jyotirjvalati brahmaahamasmi |
yo'hamasmi brahmaahamasmi |
ahamasmi brahmaahamasmi |
ahamevaaham maam juhomi svaahaa |


“ahameva aham maam juhomi svaaha! This means I offer myself as an oblation to fire! , this will now mean vedas peaches us to do suicide ???


see, the meaning has to be taken in right context,





Coming to the extensively quoted words pointing to beef in the Vedas namely ukshna and vhrsh. If we read the yajurveda, it is not difficult to understand that these words are used to denote butter/ghee and rice. Obviously the bull and cow are used to denote rice grain and milk products because of their utility in agriculture & dairy farm. Eg:

Dhenvai vaa etad reto yad aajyam anaduhas tandulaa mithunaad evaasmai chakshuh prajanayati

The butter is the seed of the cow, the rice grain of the ox; verily from the pair he produces for him sight. The oblation is (made) in ghee, ghee is brilliance, sight is brilliance; verily by brilliance he wins for him brilliance and sight Y.V. 2.2.9.4

Now coming to the relevant verse of brihadaranyaka where ‘mamsoudanam’ ‘proukshena’ and ‘vaarshabena’ are interpreted to mean beef one should understand that a single word in Sanskrit has so many meanings. So also maamsa, uksha and vrsha.




“atha ya ichhedduhitaa me pandito vigeeta: samitimgama: susrushitaam vaacam bhaashitaa jaayeta sarvaanvedaananubruveeta sarvamaayuriyaaditi maamsoudanam paacayitva sarpishmantamashneeyaataameeshvarou janayita vaa proukshena vaarshabhena vaa”

it may be seen that the context here is obtaining a son for which certain inherent doshas of the body are to be removed. Thus as I said earlier, uksha should be interpreted to mean ghee and vrsha interpreted to mean rishabhaka, a medicinal herb also known by the name vrsha (Microstylis muscifera). Sarpis which is clarified butter, is extensively used in ayurveda for treatment of related issues. Just as an eg, I’d like to quote an ayurvedic preparation called ‘vrsha ghrtam’ here

samoola patra shaakhasya shatam krtvaa vrshasya tu
jaladrone vipaktavyam ashtabhaagaavasheshitam
garbhena vrsha pushpaanam aadhakam sarpisha: pacet
tatsiddham paayayet yuktya madhupaada samanvitam

if we start interpreting vrsha here to mean ox, then god save the patient!



Yaani bhadraani beejaani rishabhaa janayanti ca
Taistvam putram vindasva saa prasoordhenukaa bhava

By the use of the auspicious seeds yielded by the herbs named Rishabhaka, do thou, O woman, obtain thyself a son: be thou a fruitful mother-cow! (Atharva.3.23.4)

Here too the westerners have interpreted vrishabha to mean a steer/bull but the clue lies in the 6th hymn there under:

Yaasaam dyaushpita prthvee maataa samudro moolam veerudham babhoova Taastvaa putravidyaaya daivee: praavantvoshadhaya:

May those celestial herbs whose sire was Heaven, the Earth their mother, and their root the ocean. May those celestial healing Plants assist thee to obtain a son. AV 3.23.6
@sambya ji,

I dont think there was anything like bali in any vedic sacrifices, there are lots and lots of verses from vedas which tells about sacredness of cows.

sambya
18 June 2010, 11:24 AM
I have mate many people and seen many cultures of india, there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are hardcore Non-vegetarians, like Maithli brahmans, nepali brahmans, kashmiri brahmans, himachali brahmans, Gaud saraswat brahmans, bengali brahmans etc. Most of these sub-castes are traditional meat eaters, not just of today. Sachin tendulkar, lata mangeshkar, sunil gavaskar all fit in gaud saraswat category and they all are non-vegy.

speaking of gauda saraswat i couldnt stop myself from describing how this particular branch grew out . it is a rather interesting story .

in the early vedic period the aryan settlements were mostly around saraswati river and ganga . eventually saraswati dried up , which is now proven through satteliite imagery which shows dried up river bed--the present remmnants of which are called ghaghara hakra river . the brahmins who settled along saraswati were called saraswat brahmins . after the extinction of the river then moved further east untill a group arrived at what is now bengal . that land was historically called gauda-desha ( yes , gaudiya vaishnavs derive their name from that gauda too) . so the brahmins began to be hailed as gauda saraswat brahmins . this group later spread to other parts of india including maharastra !



Hello sambya ji,


well, I am not a scholar but i will like to point out, a sanskrit word doesn't necessarily carries one meaning, for example if we go by literal translations, then some vedic verses can give illogical meanings.


A respected women very well versed in vedas pointed out fallacies in literal translations of vedic verses following in one website. I am quoting from there



@sambya ji,

I dont think there was anything like bali in any vedic sacrifices, there are lots and lots of verses from vedas which tells about sacredness of cows.

about the translations i totally agre with you . western translations are generally inaccurate . other translations often have sectarian leanings .

as eastern mind ji points out , any translation originating in someones mind must have a shade of that persons own thought . the best way is to check the main scriptures yourselves . but then again vedic sanskrit is completely different from what we find in gita and puranas . its tougher !

about sacrifices i cannot be sure yet . most interpretations and stories do point to a final act of sacrifice . but as i have not seen the main texts myself i cannot comment . but even if sacrifices were there it shouldnt bother me . hinduism has a way for evryone in its fold .......even for the demoniac . thats the very essence of hinduism . an intellectual , a skeptic , an emotional person , an ascetic , a householder , a renunciate or even a mleccha can all find a way in this dharma . thats what makes hinduims so special .

personally i know certain medieval era smritis which does advocate balidaan to devi for navaratri , specially for shavara jati (a tribal populace) .

but i do agree one one point , which i have already mentioned before . for spiritual aspirants there can be no better and easier way than ahimsa !! :)

sambya
18 June 2010, 11:35 AM
Well, it might be bad for humans but I'm pretty sure the demigods enjoyed getting intoxicated now and then!


you would be surprised to know the balarama as sankarsana , the indentical expansion of krishna-- THE GOD , was addicted to liqour . shastras describe him as one of white complexion , wearing blue robes , with an earring on one ear and red eyed due to drinking !! :D

now i cannot say what the drink was , but it was certainly not water or sugarcane juice !!!!

isavasya
18 June 2010, 11:45 AM
sambya ji,

yes I know the story of gauda saraswat, there are few in Bihar too, but they only call themselves saraswat now. By the way, today gaud saraswat are thickly populated in coastal karnatka and maharashtra only.

I can give few reasons, why some castes became non-vegeterains. Like in mithla region of bihar, flood comes every year, so there is abundance of fish, but drought of cereals, so with time, mithla people became forced by nature to live on fish. Also there is abundance of fish in costal regions of karnatka (but proper irrigation soil may be lacking), that's why gaud saraswat might have turned non-vegy in those areas. Also yes these people originated from region around saraswati river.



Yes, some translation may be sectarian and few tantrik texts or purans may contain hints of meat eating like, jeernam jeernam vatapi jeernam by agastya rishi, but i don't see anything lke bali in vedic sacrifises, I don't say some sects give 100% correct vedic translations, but logically I don't see any sacrifices, how ever many texts asks us to refrain from any himsa to animals.

NayaSurya
18 June 2010, 12:46 PM
you would be surprised to know the balarama as sankarsana , the indentical expansion of krishna-- THE GOD , was addicted to liqour . shastras describe him as one of white complexion , wearing blue robes , with an earring on one ear and red eyed due to drinking !! :D

now i cannot say what the drink was , but it was certainly not water or sugarcane juice !!!!

I love this post<3

It just shows how difficult it is to avoid such things.:p

The other day my children were watching a show called "Monsters Inside Me."

This show has all sorts of worms and nasty stuff that lives in beef, fish, pork. The one was a fish worm that got into a woman and it was horrible.

It makes all the more sense why these things were forbidden by ancient religions.

Muslims, Jews...pork...totally makes sense. Even in these times, pork can cause worms that kill you.

It gives a girl a serious respect for the wisdom of our ancient ones.

sambya
18 June 2010, 01:38 PM
isavasya . hmm the things are complex . but at the end we all love hinduism . thats what counts the most . :)



naya , hahahahahahaha . thanks for appreciating . lets see what our devotee of 'THE GOD' has to say !! :)

bp789
18 June 2010, 01:48 PM
Thanks for all the help everyone. While I got some answers from this, this honestly left me more confused than before due to many people having so many different opinions. But considering it's Hinduism we're talking about, I probably should have expected this :).

BryonMorrigan
18 June 2010, 03:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhtyR042OM

I swear to COW!

(Yes, I am quite aware that the above video doesn't really portray the correct views of Hindus in relation to either cows or beef. I just thought it would be funny to post here...)

And interestingly enough, I remember seeing the actor who plays Raj in an interview somewhere (I tried to find it online, but couldn't...) where he said that he is a Hindu...but eats hamburgers! I can't remember exactly what he said, but if I remember correctly, he seemed to imply that many Hindus in America eat beef! It was very strange.

ScottMalaysia
18 June 2010, 07:54 PM
One only needs common sense to understand alcohol. You don't really need to go to the scriptures at all. Just go to a bar and observe the people. Read the newspaper for traffic fatalities. It is almost always accompanied by "Police say alcohol was probably involved." Look at health statistics, AA, and the appearance of rehab clinics, and marital or family disputes.

I think this is getting into discussions of drunkenness instead of alcohol. The things you mention, Eastern Mind, are caused by excessive consumption of alcohol. I live in a country that is becoming excessively worried about the alcohol consumption, especially by the youth of the country and has proposed raising the tax on alcohol.

Having one or two drinks with friends at a get-together won't generally do any harm. It's excessive drinking that causes the majority of the problems related to alcohol, not casual drinking.

Eastern Mind
18 June 2010, 08:19 PM
I think this is getting into discussions of drunkenness instead of alcohol. The things you mention, Eastern Mind, are caused by excessive consumption of alcohol. I live in a country that is becoming excessively worried about the alcohol consumption, especially by the youth of the country and has proposed raising the tax on alcohol.

Having one or two drinks with friends at a get-together won't generally do any harm. It's excessive drinking that causes the majority of the problems related to alcohol, not casual drinking.


Vannakkam Scott: I agree. My second sentence in the post says that. But the problem has been a round a very long time, and it's not something brought in by the British. Here is a link to the Tirukkural on it. Scroll down a bit. Talks about gambling too.

http://nvkashraf.co.cc/nvashraf/kur-eng/close10.htm

I think those of us that have been or are currently around alcoholics more feel this debate more. I've seen 2 drinks a week become 4, become 6, become daily, etc. So your government, and mine are right to be worried. In some countries it is a very big problem.

Aum Namasivaya

Madhuri
18 June 2010, 09:05 PM
See it is a big myth that brahmins are vegetarians and non-brahmins are not, actually it is not caste but sect which decides who are vegetarians and who are not, except for some vaishyas who are mostly vegetarians, irrespective of region and sect.

I have met many people and seen many cultures of india, there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are hardcore Non-vegetarians, like Maithli brahmans, nepali brahmans, kashmiri brahmans, himachali brahmans, Gaud saraswat brahmans, bengali brahmans etc. Most of these sub-castes are traditional meat eaters, not just of today. Sachin tendulkar, lata mangeshkar, sunil gavaskar all fit in gaud saraswat category and they all are non-vegy.On the same maadwaris, agarwals, are 100% vegetarians. They come in vaishya category. Also there are many sub-castes of brahmins who are pure vegetarians.

There is nothing called demi-god in hinduism, please stop abusing our devtas by taking terms from iskcon. Second devtas, including VISNU himself drank soma, which was not alcohol, but energy drink, which was required to give them strength in fights against asuras (demons).

Also Alcohol is definitely bad, if you see it on average, alcohol can bring no good, but it can bring many bads,alcohol can lead to wife-beating, making one child abuser, in developing cancer, My mom and dad are doctor, they say 50% of their patients acquire
problems from alcohol only. so alcohol is detrimental to society.

I am not saying, pre-martial sex with consent is crime, but it is definitely not moral, nor ethical, from Hindu dharms perspective. I wouldn't advice it to anyone.

You have more experiene in india than i and so I shall not continue arguing this. I know mostly from what I have heard from others on this issue. I get the impression that there are many vegetarians in India though. Also that Brahmins today would generally not be so strict due to it being Kali Yuga, much mroe materialistic. But I do not really know how it was in ancient times.

You are right, demigod is not an accruate term, although I am not sure that there is an accurate english term for the devas. Perhaps just gods, with the small g? In any case, I don't care much, because it is just a term and i know that those in Hinduism who use it do not give the exact same meaning that, say, the Greeks do. But let us not argue, I will submit to saying 'deva' from now on unless talking about actual demigods such as the Pandavas.

I didn't argue that alcohol is good. I even said it is bad for humans. But I do not think it accurate to say it is only fit for demons considering that the devas enjoy intoxication from time to time. They are not human, are not affected by health as humans are.

The only time I think that pre-marital sex is immoral is when a baby results and the parents are not prepared to bring it up with love and care. If the two adults are consenting and responsible, then I would not call it immoral. This is largely because i see morality as being subject to involving how an action may hold consequenes (esp negative) for others. In today's context I think the risks of negative consequences are less than in previous times. I too, would not recommend it to people, but do not see the act itself as unethical.

isavasya
18 June 2010, 10:05 PM
You have more experiene in india than i and so I shall not continue arguing this. I know mostly from what I have heard from others on this issue. I get the impression that there are many vegetarians in India though. Also that Brahmins today would generally not be so strict due to it being Kali Yuga, much mroe materialistic. But I do not really know how it was in ancient times.


yes of course, there are millions and millions of hindus who are vegetarians,(at least 60% Indian Hindus are vegetarians in my opinion). I just pointed out it is primarily sect Philosophy, and region which decides vegetarianism above any other factor like caste.



You are right, demigod is not an accruate term, although I am not sure that there is an accurate english term for the devas. Perhaps just gods, with the small g? In any case, I don't care much, because it is just a term and i know that those in Hinduism who use it do not give the exact same meaning that, say, the Greeks do. But let us not argue, I will submit to saying 'deva' from now on unless talking about actual demigods such as the Pandavas.

Good:) devtas should be called devtas .



I didn't argue that alcohol is good. I even said it is bad for humans. But I do not think it accurate to say it is only fit for demons considering that the devas enjoy intoxication from time to time. They are not human, are not affected by health as humans are.

Well as i said, soma should be seen as energy drink ,like red Bull, and not alcohol, but you are free to have your interpretation. :)




The only time I think that pre-marital sex is immoral is when a baby results and the parents are not prepared to bring it up with love and care. If the two adults are consenting and responsible, then I would not call it immoral. This is largely because i see morality as being subject to involving how an action may hold consequenes (esp negative) for others. In today's context I think the risks of negative consequences are less than in previous times. I too, would not recommend it to people, but do not see the act itself as unethical.

seeing your signature which mentions prabhupada, the above post looks oxymoron. ;) (plz dont mind, i am just kidding :P)

devotee
18 June 2010, 11:30 PM
If meat alcohol, drugs and sex are prohibited in Hinduism than the whole country of Nepal and most himalayan regions must follow some other religion

Such careless comments do irreparable damage to the image of Sanatan Dharma in minds who are new to this religion. You mean to say that entire population of Hindus in Himalayan region is mad after alcohol, drugs and sex in the name of religion ? Just google some words on Hinduism and give your expert comments, right ?

First of all, very few Hindus subscribe to these rituals. Second, even those Hindus who do take a little of alcohol on such occasion do it only doing Bhairava Puja .... on other days it remains forbidden to most of them unless some are hardcore drinkers.

You couldn't stop yourself to alcohol so added "drugs" too ! I hope you understand the wide range of banned substances for which the term "drugs" is used. Is it permissible to use all sorts of drugs in Hinduism ? Here again, these are limited to a very small section of Shaivites / Shaaktaas. Moreover, it is mostly limited to Bhaang and Gaanjaa and not open to all sorts of drugs. And these are used mainly by the Sadhus & not by common householder Hindus.

And what about "sex" ? This has been used in almost extinct sects of Vamacharis. But the way you have tried to project, it appears as if it is a common ritual in Hinduism !


Almost everybody in Nepal is using bhang at least on Shivaratri, even if the US goverment, especially the Reagan administration tried the utmost to outlaw drug use, still the king was donating 500 kg charas to the sadhus and shiva devotees assembled at Pashupatinath every year to celebrate Mahashivaratri according to the ancient customs.

"Almost everybody" ?? How many Nepalis do you know and have lived with ?


At dashain (durgapuja) even in the household of a pious vaishnava brahmin where i was living, 3 goats where sacrificed and the meat was eaten as prasad by all.Many nepali hindus have the custom to go to dakshinkali temple every saturday to offer a goat or chicken and some alcohol and they gather for a family picnic to eat and drink the prasad in the surrounding of the temple.

Vaishnava Brahmin and eating meat and drinking alcohol ? Then they are certainly not Vaishnavas. "Vaishnavas going to Dakshinakail" shows your confusion. Moreover, even if it is true for one brahmin or one family .... how do you generalise for all Nepali Hindus in a sweeping manner ?

Can we be a little careful and refrain from generalising things for the whole of Hindus ? The Aghoris too are Hindus and they live in burial grounds and even eat corpse meat ... does it mean that it applies to the whole Hindu society !

In general, Hindus believe in Ahimsa & consider meat-eating a habit which the religious aspirants should avoid ... they don't approve use of drugs and sex outside marriage.

OM

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 05:56 AM
Such careless comments....bleh blah rhubbabar.. baseless acussations... some more accusations equally baseless, another batch of bleh blah rhubaba....

I will not react to your rant. What i wrote are only facts. I know there are some people here who wish to deny obliterate, outlaw and supress every custom and darshana that is not westernized and sanitized within bharata dharma. Of course i knew that some would even deny that a diversity of opinion and different customs exists, thats why i added some pictures as evidence. Otherwise people with no idea of Hinduism, bad intent and impure imagination would simply accuse me of lying. I for one am not ashamend but proud of the diversity and open mindedness and inclusiveness of Bharata Dharma. You are free to dislike and denigrate customs that are sacred for other Hindus and spread divisiveness, but do not call me a liar or careless.

The point of several of my posts lately has been that unlike monotheistic cults, Hinduism does not know a universal law that is valid for everybody, or a universal lawgiver and enforcer, a judge over good and evil who created the world and humans to rule over it, a single "God". Yamas and Niyamas are different according to place, time and individual qualifications, thats why Hinduismis has not lead to the evils of monotheistic religions such as genocidal religious wars, mass murder of heretics, political power struggle and invasive wars, violent suppression of unbelivers and colonialisation etc. We don&#180;t need a mullah hinduism with some "divine law" applicable to everybody, we better leave fatwas and "sharia" law to Islam and stick to adhikari bheda.

Alise
19 June 2010, 06:17 AM
Well I decided to post...

Alcohol... Well even 1 glass of bear, wine or any other alcohol and you can't drive with your car. That's the truth. I have tasted alcoholic drinks and I don't understand how can people like this stuff (then again I don't like taste of energy drinks, too). Youth in my country have drinking parties etc. My older sister thinks that I'm already old enough to drink some alcoholic drinks.

I will tell my view on pre-marital sex... You know sex sells. I meant songs with sexuality are most popular songs and so on. People are so good with idea, that everyone wants sex, that i have been sexually harassed, because of that. I'm against pre-marital sex. if someone can have sex with someone else then they are ready to marriage. Of course people differ, and I'm judging my relatives & people known to me. I think people should be commited to each other at least, not like one night stands.

I must be really grumpy traditional-view loving woman in my past life.

And I'd like to apologize for my view on this...


Have a nice day,
~Alice

devotee
19 June 2010, 07:15 AM
I will not react to your rant. What i wrote are only facts. I know there are some people here who wish to deny obliterate, outlaw and supress every custom and darshana that is not westernized and sanitized within bharata dharma. Of course i knew that some would even deny that a diversity of opinion and different customs exists, thats why i added some pictures as evidence. Otherwise people with no idea of Hinduism, bad intent and impure imagination would simply accuse me of lying. I for one am not ashamend but proud of the diversity and open mindedness and inclusiveness of Bharata Dharma. You are free to dislike and denigrate customs that are sacred for other Hindus and spread divisiveness, but do not call me a liar or careless.

The point of several of my posts lately has been that unlike monotheistic cults, Hinduism does not know a universal law that is valid for everybody, or a universal lawgiver and enforcer, a judge over good and evil who created the world and humans to rule over it, a single "God". Yamas and Niyamas are different according to place, time and individual qualifications, thats why Hinduismis has not lead to the evils of monotheistic religions such as genocidal religious wars, mass murder of heretics, political power struggle and invasive wars, violent suppression of unbelivers and colonialisation etc. We don´t need a mullah hinduism with some "divine law" applicable to everybody, we better leave fatwas and "sharia" law to Islam and stick to adhikari bheda.

You may do a little better by reading first what has been written than responding like this. My objection is against the generalisation. I have nowhere said that you were lying which we are sore about.

I have mentioned about the Aghoris & their lifestyle which are part of Hinduism ... but what is the percentage of Hindus who subscribe to such a path ? The path is valid but that is not what the whole of Hinduism is. That alone is not the path which all Hindus tread on ... in fact, it is a small percentage.

Hindus have not left anything unturned in their quest towards finding the Truth .... but everything is not for the common people. Generalisation like this is bad. Propagation of such ideas without taking care that it can mislead people is hazardous. Such false propaganda only led to the "Dam maaro dam"(sort of hippy culture) culture which harmed the Youth badly in the seventees.

OM

Eastern Mind
19 June 2010, 07:39 AM
Well I decided to post...

Alcohol... Well even 1 glass of bear, wine or any other alcohol and you can't drive with your car. That's the truth. I have tasted alcoholic drinks and I don't understand how can people like this stuff (then again I don't like taste of energy drinks, too). Youth in my country have drinking parties etc. My older sister thinks that I'm already old enough to drink some alcoholic drinks.

I will tell my view on pre-marital sex... You know sex sells. I meant songs with sexuality are most popular songs and so on. People are so good with idea, that everyone wants sex, that i have been sexually harassed, because of that. I'm against pre-marital sex. if someone can have sex with someone else then they are ready to marriage. Of course people differ, and I'm judging my relatives & people known to me. I think people should be commited to each other at least, not like one night stands.

I must be really grumpy traditional-view loving woman in my past life.

And I'd like to apologize for my view on this...


Have a nice day,
~Alice

Vannakkam SA: Please don't apologise for such a wise sttement. Like I said before, age has nothing to do with it.

Your parents and most Hindus believe in brahmacharya before marriage, and absolute commitment after marriage. it is right in one of the Yamas of Patanjali.

There are reasons for this. One is mystical. Intimacy makes for a psychic connection, just like talking with someone for long hours, but in a mystical sense. That type of intimacy creates a connection that lingers on long after the relationship or sexual encounter is over. It puts something in your mind. As far as the mystical part goes, most of that knowledge has been lost. Of course the rationalists on here will argue the mystic part as always, as there is no common ground. A finely tuned mystically inclined person can feel a connection, or a recent sexual act between two people.

Another is the mind comparing the sexual act from before marriage with the act during marriage. What spouse wouldn't be hurt if he or she thought that the other enjoyed sex more with some other person who is actually just in the past? So it is not helpful to the marriage in this way. Virgins marrying virgins works out better for this. To know that this deep intimacy has only been shared between the two of you makes for a deeper bond.

Another reason for not going for premarital sex is the damage it will do to your parents. Perhaps some would say it is a generation gap, but healthy families do communicate. So a girl goes off to college, sleeps around, comes back and lies to her parents, or at least doesn't mention it, and then later agrees to an arranged marriage with parents assuring the other family, and the boy that she is a virgin. Then she has to either lie again, or tell the truth with crazy consequences. All a big mess!

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 07:55 AM
My objection is against the generalisation.
Baseless accusations as usual. Thats why a response is not possible. What generalisation? My posting says exactly the opposite that generalisations are not in accordance with Hindu Dharma.

devotee
19 June 2010, 09:45 AM
Baseless accusations as usual. Thats why a response is not possible. What generalisation? My posting says exactly the opposite that generalisations are not in accordance with Hindu Dharma.

Good, if you were not generalising. However, your writing style doesn't say so ... like use of "as usual" in your opening sentence in the above post.

You read SA's post on "pre-marital sex" ? Can you say what prompted her to post that ? She might have got a horrible notion that Hindus are for pre-marital sex or some sort of free sex ... I don't know ! She had no reason to post this and also be sorry about having negative feelings about her opposition to pre-marital sex if she only knew that Hindus are dead against pre-marital sex.

When knowledge about this religion in general is so poor in the west, posts like yours can do irreparable damage to young minds. It can justify their bad habits & lead them to doom.

OM

NayaSurya
19 June 2010, 10:39 AM
There was a poem I remember from my childhood called "Children Learn What They Live"

We should walk peacefully beside the paths of cultures, be they a minority or majority. These other cultures may use drugs, eat meat, and drink. This is each persons choice, not ours. (unless it's our child in our home:P)...Again we can allow others to define us, or define who we are not. Even as adults we make such decisions everyday.

Sometimes it's not that we are following something we were shown by the "oppressive christian morality machine"...it's because of example?

Because Children learn what they live...even on the forum.

The girl begs others to understand this message of moderation. The Mother, she has become, hugs you all for reading.<3

I could only suffer this truth for a moment to exist in front of me.

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 11:04 AM
When knowledge about this religion in general is so poor in the west, posts like yours can do irreparable damage to young minds. It can justify their bad habits & lead them to doom.



Post like mine, you mean postings that allows Hindus and non hindus to have darshan of the sacred murti of Svetabhairava and that contain some facts about ancient shaiva and shakta customs, sacrifices and festivals of nepali hindus regarding Shiva, Durga, Bhairava and Kali will lead people to doom?

Praising Christianity, the "Avatar" Jesus the "holy" Bible and the Prophet of "God" Mohammmed and the "holy" Quran while spewing hate on your fellow Hindus if they are devoted to other devatas like Sveta Bhairava and Dakshinkali, using customs you disapprove of, that is wholesome?

I disagree I think it is this attitude of divison and intolerance Hindus show towards each other while having only praise for the abrahamic religions is what leads us to doom.

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 11:19 AM
Kasmiri Saivism speaks of freewill...which goes both ways. Free will to chose not to is just as valid as the choosing to.

We should walk peacefully beside the paths of cultures, be they a minority or majority. These other cultures may use drugs, eat meat, and drink. This is each persons choice, not ours.

The 3 M alcohol meat and sexual union are at the heart of Kashmir Shaivaism. Kashmir Shaivaism is Trika Kaula Tantra. There is no "Kashmir Shaivaism" without the use of at least some of these substances. Kashmir was one of the main centres of Kaula and Vamachara Tantra. It doesn&#180;t make sense at all to mention a darshana that insists that at least wine must be present in every sacrifice, in support of criticising meat eating and use of alcohol. Wine is the Shakti, it is Bhairava, according to Kashmir Shaiva Darshana. Abhinavagupta wrote in Tantraloka:
Alkohol is the supreme shakti, wine is said to be Bhairava. The self is turned into liquid form since Bhairava is great hearted.

NayaSurya
19 June 2010, 11:45 AM
It was a call for moderation...and my story is one of not moderation.

It was a call for every path to walk without criticizing others and to focus on their own highly individual path.

Again free will means to choose. Yes or no. Which means there is a no, and there is a yes...and they exist together in the name of freewill.

This life story wasn't an example of drinking for worship. It was about the Godless.

To show that sometimes it isn't the christian morality driving us to make a decision, it's our own parents.

This story above was a plea:

Please do not take up arrows for one the who walks beside you.

For He is Siva...all are.

Edited to add: If the day arrived that the Beloved saw me fit to return to the Mother, India...and I was offered such things in the name of Siva. I would accept a small amount.

As long as this body does not have a severe allergy to it such as I do to milk...then I would do so. I had to turned down offering at Temple because of my allergy to milk. I will turn it down again if offered. Milk makes me violently ill. But it doesn't make me less of a devotee that I had to do this. It kept me from vomitting in Siva's place of worship.

PARAM
19 June 2010, 11:50 AM
All Non-Veg and Alcholic products, unnatural sex is strictly prohobited in hinduism.

The Do and Don't is already provided in Vedas, no need for asking others

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 12:00 PM
It was a call for moderation...and my story is one of not moderation.

It was a call for every path to walk without criticizing others and to focus on their own highly individual path.

Again free will means to choose. Yes or no. Which means there is a no, and there is a yes...and they exist together in the name of freewill.

This life story wasn't an example of drinking for worship. It was about the Godless.

To show that sometimes it isn't the christian morality driving us to make a decision, it's our own parents.

This story above was a plea:

Please do not take up arrows for one the who walks beside you.

For He is Siva...all are.

There are no arrows implied, only the facts do not match, there was no choice with regard to acceptance of wine in trika kaula dharma. In Tantraloka Abhinavagupta wrote that if there is only a slight hesitation, when the sacrifical mixture was offered, the person is to be dumped immediately (treated like a stone) and can not be accepted as a disciple. I am not emotional about this topic at all it is just a few scraps of information i present.

NayaSurya
19 June 2010, 12:10 PM
Good there are no such arrows, as I respect your choice and fully support it. But, even as I type this, I realize there is no need for my support or anyone elses, as your path is yours wholey.

Strive on.

NayaSurya
19 June 2010, 12:13 PM
Oh and did say if I were to be given such things I would take without question. The only things which cause me to hesitate in such a way are white offerings because they usually have much milk content.

I have turned down sweet milk offering, because this vessel is severely allergic to it.

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 12:13 PM
Good there are no such arrows, as I respect your choice and fully support it. But, even as I type this, I realize there is no need for my support or anyone elses, as your path is yours wholey.

Strive on.

Its not about me i am not drinking alkohol eating meat or using drugs or having sex. I am discussing topics not private likes or dislikes.

NayaSurya
19 June 2010, 12:23 PM
Try sharing sometimes, it's very goodly.

Seeing yourself through the eyes of others can be very good.

It can make you once again say...I am not like them, or then again you can find yourself saying...I am much like them.:p

The forum has helped me learn more than any book I have in my possession. Because of people like You, Devotee, Yajvan, EM, Everyone! (even TTA:P)...all of your blessed pieces of Divine.

I have learned much about who I am and who I am not and most importantly...who I want to be.<3

sambya
19 June 2010, 12:25 PM
in respect to discussions about bhairava kali and alcohol i would like to mention a fact . in the eastern belt , specially bengal kali puja is not possible without alcohol .

suraa remains an important ingrediant of kali puja . a suraa-patra or wine bowl is placed in the lower right hand of the goddess as an offering . for those who dislike offering alcohol , an offering of coconut milk mixed with ginger juice and honey which has been kept in a brass bowl for some time is suggested instead . that is a substitute of suraa .

but most pujas have alcohol in their ceremonies . albeit ritually .

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 12:45 PM
in respect to discussions about bhairava kali and alcohol i would like to mention a fact . in the eastern belt , specially bengal kali puja is not possible without alcohol .

suraa remains an important ingrediant of kali puja . a suraa-patra or wine bowl is placed in the lower right hand of the goddess as an offering . for those who dislike offering alcohol , an offering of coconut milk mixed with ginger juice and honey which has been kept in a brass bowl for some time is suggested instead . that is a substitute of suraa .

but most pujas have alcohol in their ceremonies . albeit ritually .

Of course that just what i wrote, east, west, and in himalayan regions, wine and meat is more common for sacrifice than in the south. Substitutes are suboptimal. But you know we are the doom and gloom if we do so much as mention that this is a legitimate part of Hinduism.

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 01:12 PM
Oh and did say if I were to be given such things I would take without question. The only things which cause me to hesitate in such a way are white offerings because they usually have much milk content.

I have turned down sweet milk offering, because this vessel is severely allergic to it.

Now i cannot say that for myself, you never know, there could be stuff inside i wouldn&#180;t even touch with a stick especially with these kashmir shaivaites and aghors :) From some people i would hesitate to take a cup of tea. One can get really sick gobbling down the wrong brew.

atanu
19 June 2010, 02:20 PM
Okay, I was reading this article online about Hindus and Muslims in the US (I think) and how while they have no problem having sex, drinking, or doing drugs, if they see a fellow Hindu or Muslim eating beef or pork, then it's automatically blasphemy.

I was reading the comments of the article and it said apparently that it's not forbidden for Hindus to do stuff like that because ancient Indians had to eat beef for survival and it was considered a good food for Brahmins. Here's the link to the comments.

http://www.chicagoflame.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&ustory_id=9509b62c-104e-480f-8455-4404f2835c83#36773128-290c-4a4b-9159-229c70a5c1e8

Now my parents are from a very conservative Hindu sect which forbids eating meat (onion and garlic too, but I don't really follow that lol), drinking alcohol, doing drugs, or pre-marital sex. I'm not going go do all that stuff if it isn't, but I'm pretty confused.

Namaste

A lot of discussion on the subject has taken place in other threads and in this thread. I think, there is no reason to be confused. I think, Eastern Mind and Devotee have offered well meaning advise. Eastern Mind, has also shown link to scripture.

Dharma shastra prohibits sura (alcohol) for brahmins and also advises against meat eating. Manu Smriti says that a land where gentle animals roam without fear is fit for performing sacrifices to Gods. Ahimsa is the keyword.

Vigyan Bhairava tantra teaches more than 100 methods for attaining Shiva and only one method involves sexual act. Sexual act is not the mainstay of Tantric methods. Even with the method involving sexual union, CONTROL and retention of semen is the key. The method, as in Vigyan Bhairava, involves constant remembrance of mantra/japa during the intercourse. That hardly is indicative of wild abandon. Some western devotees act more hindu than born hindus and become angry when this is pointed out. It is true that alcohol and meat is offered to kAli mA, but that does not, I think, constitute a general path. Neither does it indicate hedonism. Rather it indicates that when one offers meat and liquor to God, one is fully centered. This is just the opposite of craving. Finally, Tantrik path itself is not the full hinduism.

Although, Hinduism is actually not infected with prudishness of other religions, it is beyond doubt that indulgence with meat, alcohol, and sex is not recommended anywhere within hinduism.

Regarding sacrifice of 'Bull' and worship of 'Cow', I fail to understand why we have so much confusion? Indra-Agni-Rudra-Varuna etc. are called BULLS. OM is called a BULL. Ego is a Bull. Sun is said to be the Bull in the sky. Sacrifice is of the Ego and/or Mind in favour of the gentle word (Vac), which is Gau (Cow) and Gauri (Mother) gets her name from that. Similarly, the primeval mind, which expanded and became the world is called asva - horse - the fast moving. Sacrifice of that full mind led to this variegated Universe and sacrifice of that fragmented mind brings it back to the stable, termed as immutable ocean in Brihadaraynaka Upanishad.

Lastly, select that which makes you comfortable and without too much guilt. If your parents are vegetarians, it is, I think, unwise to adopt a contrary path.

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
19 June 2010, 05:03 PM
Thanks Atanu, for clarifying that one ! :)

Some people from west feel that exceptions make the rule ! The tantrik paths involving sex for religious aspirations is almost dead in Hinduism and nowhere in the past too it was ever popular. It was a practice which never got approval of the general populace among Hindus.

Can MahaHrada say he has seen such acts being realy performed in front of his eyes ? I can't say of the west but if it happens in India ... people involved in such acts whether Kashmir Shaivites or whatever, would find their place in Jail where they truly belong or if left for public to decide, would probably be killed.

Use of wine for worshipping goddess Kaali ... I have not seen wine being freely distributed for consumption for the devotees as Prasaadam in Kaali Puja. In our homes too we worship Kaali but we never offer alcohol to mother goddess. I have not been in Bengal during Puja but I have stayed and lived in Assam for a long time & I have not seen people offering wine to mother goddess and then distributing it freely. It might be symbolic though in some places. Nowhere in North India or in South India one can see use of Alcohol during Puja except in some less popular Bhairava temple in the western part of India ... but that is a rare example.

The animal sacrifice was prevalent in Shakti Puja but slowly it is also being replaced with sacrifices of some fruits or offering the animals without being killed. The reality is that great saints of these paths have not favoured indulging in such acts ... like killing of innocent animal or use of wine or sex (which is a clear no-no). For those who are new to Hinduism, let me tell them that the tantrik practice that MahaHrada mentions has very few followers today ... very few Hindus would like to associate with such practices ... may be MahaHrada is a rare one of those who practises it. But it is more of an exception & not a rule.

Getting some news from some places ... getting a few pictures from some places ... posting it and portryaing it that it is a regular practice within the society is not correct. You can get pornographic picture of child abuse by some Hindus too ... so shall we post the picture and say that Hindus favour child sexual abuse ? Hinduism had many practices which were actually exceptions in all times (never got the approval of general masses .... many such self-styled tantriks have been prosecuted & also lynched by public in India from time to time for their ignorant and illigal practices & I would advise people to remain extremely careful while dealing with them ... "tantrik" word itself is something to be careful about) and most of these have slowly died out. These practices never represented mainstream Hinduism. This is not what real Hinduism is ... this is not what the Hindus are proud of ... Kashmir Shaivism, even in moderated form, without alcohol & sex, has very few followers.

OM

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 05:23 PM
Thanks Atanu, for clarifying that one ! :)

Some people from west feel that exceptions make the rule ! The tantrik paths involving sex for religious aspirations is almost dead in Hinduism and nowhere in the past too it was ever popular. It was a practice which never got approval of the general populace among Hindus.

Can MahaHrada say he has seen such acts being realy performed in front of his eyes ? I can't say of the west but if it happens in India ... people involved in such acts whether Kashmir Shaivites or otherwise would find their place in Jail where they truly belong.

Use of wine for worshipping goddess Kaali ... I have not seen wine being freely distributed for consumption for the devotees as Prasaadam in Kaali Puja. In our homes too we worship Kaali but we never offer alcohol to mother goddess. I have not been in Bengal during Puja but I have stayed and lived in Assam for a long time & I have not seen people offering wine to mother goddess and then distributing it freely. It might be symbolic though in some places. Nowhere in North India or in South India one can see use of Alcohol during Puja except in some less popular Bhairava temple in the western part of India ... but that is a rare example.

The animal sacrifice was prevalent in Shakti Puja but slowly it is also being replaced with sacrifices of some fruits or offering the animals without being killed. The reality is that great saints of these paths have not favoured such indulging in such acts ... like killing of innocent animal or use of wine or sex (which is a clear no-no). For those who are new to Hinduism, let me tell them that the tantrik practice that MahaHrada mentions has very few followers today ... very few Hindus would like to associate with such practices ... may be MahaHrada is a rare one of those who practises it. But it is more of an exception & not a rule.

Getting some news from some places ... getting a few pictures from some places ... posting it and portryaing it that it is a regular practice within the society is not correct. You can get pornographic picture of child abuse by some Hindus too ... so shall we post the picture and say that Hindus favour child sexual abuse ? Hinduism had many practices which were actually exceptions in all times (never got the approval of general masses .... many such self-styled tantriks have been prosecuted & also lynched by public in India from time to time for their ignorant and illigal practices & I would advise people to remain careful while dealing with them) and most of these have slowly died out. These practices never represented mainstream Hinduism. This is not what real Hinduism is ... this is not what the Hindus are proud of ... Kashmir Shaivism, even in moderated form, without alcohol & sex, has very few followers.

OM


Indra jatra, the festival where people drink the sacred prasad from the sveta bhairava murti at Hanuman dhoka in Nepal is attendend by the whole population, it is an important festival, also like i said before every household, and also the Goverment, and even the airlines and other companies, are offering pashu bali in Nepal at Dashain. Everybody of course eats the meat after the sacrifice.
Mahashivaratri is celebrated as a great festival by all nepalis and almost everybody traditionally uses intoxicants to celebrate, usually bhang, alcohol or charas and as i wrote the king has always donated a truckload of 500kg charas to the population and the sadhus that assemble at Pashupatinath temple for the occasion. These are not fringe practices every Hindu takes part in these celebrations. And as i wrote before keep me out of it i am a vegetarian and do not use drugs or alcohol or even have sex and stop your lies that I depend on second hand information. When i write here it is to defend the Dharma against its detractors and enemies that delight in spewing hate towards fellow Hindus and are on their knees in praise of abrahamic religions and their imposed victorian morals. If you get your head out of the backside of Mohammed and Jesus for a minute maybe you would not spent the rest of your life in self imposed darkness.
That you want to see innocent Sadhus, nepali Hindus or kashmir pandits, or bengal tantrics and others go to jail for the offence of offering wine, meat and pashu bali to the devi and for following difffernt custom and darshana than what you prefer does not astonish me, it fits you well. That you even speak of lynching innocents is just great, thanks for openly showing your love.

Sahasranama
19 June 2010, 05:52 PM
There is no question that meat eating, animal sacrifice, intoxication and sex were part of the vaidik, pauranik and tantrik dharma. Abstaining from these (vegetarianism, non alcoholism, celibacy) is a personal choise, like Manu said, "there is no wrong doing in eating meat, but abstaining from it has tremendous benefits."

The killing of a cow is a mahapapam and should never be done by hindus. In time of crisis though, even the wife of rishi vishvamitra ate the flesh of vasishta's cow and fed it to her children too.

Eastern Mind
19 June 2010, 06:19 PM
Vannakkam all: This reminds me of my aunts' use of one line of biblical scripture to excuse her hidden imbibing. Funny thing was, because if her, I actually had one line of the Bible memorized at one time Timothy 6: 23 I think. Drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake. Something like that. Yet I heard the Lord's Prayer every day at school for 7 odd years, but never got past Our father Who Art...

I believe in the end it is up to each decide on their own take. Clearly we all have very different heritages within Sanatana Dharma we cling to. Mine, for example, is very small within the whole of Hinduism. The population of India outnumbers Nepal by 40 to 1. Then consider all the Mauritians, Malaysians, South Africans, Americans, Europeans, Fijians, Balinese etc. This would put Nepalese version of Hinduism around 2% of all Hindus.

If the diversity isn't pointed out, yes it could be a detriment to a newcomer's understanding. I remember British soldiers coming to Canada, and being bussed to my small rural Alberta town of 4000 people. This was their touch of Canada for 3 weeks. Can't imagine what they thought or said to their fellow countrymen when they went home. They missed the Rockies, Vancouver, Montreal and much much more. India and Hinduism is far more vast than the mindsets within Canada. We have 2 official languages, and India has 15 or 20 with at least a million speakers.

I am now drawn at least to befriend the Nepalis who come to our temple and love to take the ends of the pumpkin plants. A delicacy in Nepal, but not here. I was so surprised at how they went nuts when they saw it. Then I can get a better view from someone first hand. For me personally, other than living in Nepal for two years, it is the best way to understand it better.

I have no clue of Kashmiri Saivism or half the words given on here. My stance has always been that once you discover what works for you, stop at that. An analogy would be buying a house and then continuing to look at houses to buy.

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
19 June 2010, 06:39 PM
Vannakkam all: This reminds me of my aunts' use of one line of biblical scripture to excuse her hidden imbibing. Funny thing was, because if her, I actually had one line of the Bible memorized at one time Timothy 6: 23 I think. Drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake. Something like that. Yet I heard the Lord's Prayer every day at school for 7 odd years, but never got past Our father Who Art...

I believe in the end it is up to each decide on their own take. Clearly we all have very different heritages within Sanatana Dharma we cling to. Mine, for example, is very small within the whole of Hinduism. The population of India outnumbers Nepal by 40 to 1. Then consider all the Mauritians, Malaysians, South Africans, Americans, Europeans, Fijians, Balinese etc. This would put Nepalese version of Hinduism around 2&#37; of all Hindus.

If the diversity isn't pointed out, yes it could be a detriment to a newcomer's understanding. I remember British soldiers coming to Canada, and being bussed to my small rural Alberta town of 4000 people. This was their touch of Canada for 3 weeks. Can't imagine what they thought or said to their fellow countrymen when they went home. They missed the Rockies, Vancouver, Montreal and much much more. India and Hinduism is far more vast than the mindsets within Canada. We have 2 official languages, and India has 15 or 20 with at least a million speakers.

I am now drawn at least to befriend the Nepalis who come to our temple and love to take the ends of the pumpkin plants. A delicacy in Nepal, but not here. I was so surprised at how they went nuts when they saw it. Then I can get a better view from someone first hand. For me personally, other than living in Nepal for two years, it is the best way to understand it better.

I have no clue of Kashmiri Saivism or half the words given on here. My stance has always been that once you discover what works for you, stop at that. An analogy would be buying a house and then continuing to look at houses to buy.

Aum Namasivaya

Nepal is preserving a tradition that once was popular and widespread, all over India, due to the hate of the muslim and british rulers for what they considered "barbaric and immoral" practices a more sanitized version of Hinduism , vedanta and smarta closer to the likes of the foreign rulers was sponsered while other agamic and tantric darshanas were violently supressed and outlawed. Thats why some traditions only exist in smaller pocket and are less popular nowadays, probably if India gets rid of colonial western thought this can hopefully change. Instead of being proud of their heritage many Hindus are still ashamend if some aspect of Hinduism is considered "immoral" "polytheistic" "idolatry" or "barbaric" from the viewpoint of the monotheistic religions.

ScottMalaysia
19 June 2010, 09:05 PM
Alcohol is used in some Hindu rituals. In Ampang, Malaysia, I saw a statue of the South Indian God Sanggili Karuppan (also called Karuppu Sami) at the back of a Muniswarar temple.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6EGjAQ-bw7o/SWJDVSLGf_I/AAAAAAAAArk/Ad1hqdchNls/s400/KLAmpang%20004.jpg

As you can see, some Guinness (which isn't even vegetarian) has been placed in front of Him as an offering. During the puja, I was very surprised to the see the priest light a beedi (a type of Indian cigarette) and place it in Sanggili Karuppan's mouth!

Ramakrishna
19 June 2010, 09:05 PM
Namaste,

I was always opposed to premarital sex because of the four ashramas. I believe sex is for the grihastha ashrama, when one starts and raises a family. It is then that artha and kama are necessary. But one should not engage in sex during the brahmacharya ashrama, as that stage is for learning and attaining spiritual and practical knowledge, and not for kama.

Jai Sri Krishna

devotee
19 June 2010, 09:24 PM
There is no question that meat eating, animal sacrifice, intoxication and sex were part of the vaidik, pauranik and tantrik dharma.

Which Veda or vaidic literature talks of using sex for religious aspirations ? I hope you are not reading contaminated translations by the Westerners ... otherwise some perverted Westereners think that Aswamedha Horse was killed after the Yagna and before that the queen had sex with the horse !

Meat eating and animal sacrifice too are not considered vaidic today and it is a great controversy if it was vaidic even in ancient times. Acharya Chatursen who has done a lot of research on ancient Indian practices say that these were Raksha sanskriti adopted mostly by the tribals & not Aaryan. Let's remember that Hindus discarded the Rakhsa sanskriti.

Do you know any vaidic literature which encourages use of "drugs" as MahaHrada is claiming ? I have not seen it. The Vedas do talk of Soma but it is still a mystery if it was some real intoxicating herb or anything symbolic because there is no herb named as Soma found anywhere. If it was really a herb and so much valuable then why was it allowed to disappear ? Why was it not preserved like Tulsi or Pipal ?


Nepal is preserving a tradition that once was popular and widespread all over India

Nothing can be farther from the Truth ! You have no idea of Indian History but you are making claims like an expert. Moreover, Nepal is a tiny Hindu state and anything going there cannot be a representative of whole of Hinduism. The people living in hills normally have tribal mentality but that doesn't apply to whole of Hinduism.

Some time back, the King of Nepal wanted to do animal sacrifice in one of the temples in India and he was stopped by the animal lovers.


due to the hate of the muslim and british rulers for what they considered "barbaric and immoral" practices a more sanitized version of Hinduism , vedanta and smarta closer to the likes of the foreign rulers was sponsered while other agamic and tantric darshanas were violently supressed and outlawed.

"NO" in capital letters. It was not due to influence of Muslim and British rulers. The Hindus were bold enough to recognise an evil as evil & not be proud of it. The Hindus couldn't be proud of all evil prctices which the society was once ridden with. Sati system, child marriage along with vaamaachaar were rooted out from Hindu society by our own reformers. Clinging to a tradition blindly is not Hindu way .... Hindus have a trdition of throwing the evil practices into gutter for ever.

Vaamaachaar which encouraged use of sex and alcohol for religious purposes is considered an evil by today's Hindus. It is a matter of shame to be associated with such practices.


Thats why some traditions only exist in smaller pocket and are less popular nowadays, probably if India gets rid of colonial western thought this can hopefully change. Instead of being proud of their heritage many Hindus are still ashamend if some aspect of Hinduism is considered "immoral" "polytheistic" "idolatry" or "barbaric" from the viewpoint of the monotheistic religions.

As I told you, Hindus don't accept any book or a relgious figure's word as law unless it passes through other pramaanaa successfully. That is why Hindus are progressive and have no unwanted baggage of evil traditions with them today.


That you want to see innocent Sadhus, nepali Hindus or kashmir pandits, or bengal tantrics and others go to jail for the offence of offering wine, meat and pashu bali to the devi and for following difffernt custom and darshana than what you prefer does not astonish me, it fits you well. That you even speak of lynching innocents is just great, thanks for openly showing your love.

Forget about what I want or I don't want. Trying having sex ritiuals for religious purpose in India & see what happens if the news breaks out. You should consider yourself lucky if you survive like Swami Nityananda. Or if that appears so dangerous, you may try distributing free alcohol in India in the name of prasaadam & see society's reaction.


Dear Scott,


As you can see, some Guinness (which isn't even vegetarian) has been placed in front of Him as an offering. During the puja, I was very surprised to the see the priest light a beedi (a type of Indian cigarette) and place it in Sanggili Karuppan's mouth!

You too are thinking like MH ! Such practices are despised by most of the Hindus. No good Hindu worth his name would like to associate himself with such practices. Why only this ? Some Tantriks make people believe that by making human sacrifices they would get enormous hidden wealth .... & sometimes it leads to homcide and people engaged in such practices end up in Jail. There is no respected Hindu scripture which talks of such practices and there is no respected Hindu saint who approves of such practices. As I have indicated above, India carried Raksha Sanskriti too in ancient times and these traditions have been carried over from there but most of the Hindus in India hate such practices.

OM

Sahasranama
19 June 2010, 10:37 PM
Which Veda or vaidic literature talks of using sex for religious aspirations ? I hope you are not reading contaminated translations by the Westerners ... otherwise some perverted Westereners think that Aswamedha Horse was killed after the Yagna and before that the queen had sex with the horse !

Meat eating and animal sacrifice too are not considered vaidic today and it is a great controversy if it was vaidic even in ancient times. Acharya Chatursen who has done a lot of research on ancient Indian practices say that these were Raksha sanskriti adopted mostly by the tribals & not Aaryan. Let's remember that Hindus discarded the Rakhsa sanskriti.

Do you know any vaidic literature which encourages use of "drugs" as MahaHrada is claiming ? I have not seen it. The Vedas do talk of Soma but it is still a mystery if it was some real intoxicating herb or anything symbolic because there is no herb named as Soma found anywhere. If it was really a herb and so much valuable then why was it allowed to disappear ? Why was it not preserved like Tulsi or Pipal ?



I don't mean to say that meat, alcohol and sex were present individually in every single shastra. But if you look at the shastras as a whole, at the vedas, puranas and the tantras, there is definitely evidence showing that animal sacrifice, meat eating, intoxication and sex were part of the daily life of everyday people and even the rishis and that there were rituals involving these.

About the ashvamedha yajna, this is not a western interpretation. This interpretation was available in India and was also used by respected scholars like Uvata and Mahidhara. People only started objecting to such translation when the English translation became more wide spread and the general public could read them.

I can't say whether the interpretation about the ashvamedha yajna are correct, but they wouldn't bother me, because of the fact that Sri Rama banned Sita to the forrest before he conducted the ashvamedha yajna and Sita was not present at the yajna. How other rajas conducted the ashvamedha yajna really doesn't concern me, it's not something that's important in this age.

The puranas mention animal sacrifice, even the most respected vaishnava puranas like the bhagavatam. Budha's avatar was to reject the vedas and stop the animal sacrifice which would have been mostly unnecessary if he could just rewrite a commentary on the vedas.

sambya
19 June 2010, 10:42 PM
Use of wine for worshipping goddess Kaali ... I have not seen wine being freely distributed for consumption for the devotees as Prasaadam in Kaali Puja. In our homes too we worship Kaali but we never offer alcohol to mother goddess. I have not been in Bengal during Puja but I have stayed and lived in Assam for a long time & I have not seen people offering wine to mother goddess and then distributing it freely. It might be symbolic though in some places. Nowhere in North India or in South India one can see use of Alcohol during Puja except in some less popular Bhairava temple in the western part of India ... but that is a rare example.

yes devotee . true . wine is indeed not freely dristributed to public after puja as prasadam . it is used ceremonially . now some members of household might consume the thing after puja , instead of just throwing it away , but that's a different story . that is not exactly like taking prasada .

but offering of suraa or kaaran remains a must here on major kali pujas , not the regular daily pujas though . im not sure about assam since i have not been there , but generally the assam and bengal shaktism follows the same patterns of worship . but still i cant say .......



The animal sacrifice was prevalent in Shakti Puja but slowly it is also being replaced with sacrifices of some fruits or offering the animals without being killed. The reality is that great saints of these paths have not favoured indulging in such acts ... like killing of innocent animal or use of wine or sex (which is a clear no-no). For those who are new to Hinduism, let me tell them that the tantrik practice that MahaHrada mentions has very few followers today ... very few Hindus would like to associate with such practices ... may be MahaHrada is a rare one of those who practises it. But it is more of an exception & not a rule.


yes , animal sacrifice is steadily declining . even 100 years back durga puja in bengal was a bloody event . a shakta mahapuja cannot go without balidaan . animal sacrifices were the norm for most aristrocrat durga pujas . however today most families have done away with the practice with one pretext or the other . some other families cannot simply stop the age old customs(in some places it is 400 years old) for fear of god's wrath !

keeping in accordance with the new mindset of people the pandits now give a usefull advice . they advocate new families wishing to start a shakta puja to go without balidaan . but for one who have been continuing his ancestral pujas they advocate not to stop balidaan . this veiw comes from the idea of respecting ones own kula-aachaar( the customs of the ancestors) .


back during the time of sri ramakrishna paramahamsa , society was more orthodox . on important puja days in dakshineshwar temple a bali had to be offered in accordance with popular practice . to this ramakrishna never objected . but , he also did not support it . after the puja , when the time of balidaan came he slowly retreated back to his own room , silent and grave . he never took any of the meats of the bali as prasad . but in respect to the age old customs he bowed down before it .

presently animal sacrifce has been long stopped in dakshineshwar keeping in mind the ideals of ramkrishna and vivekananda .


personally i feel ( based on whatever little i have studied ) that use of alcohol and sacrifices was always there in india . but it was not spread over the entire landmass . some areas indulged in these things more than the others . some races also practiced them more than others .

devotee
19 June 2010, 10:43 PM
I don't mean to say that meat, alcohol and sex were present individually in every single shastra. But if you look at the shastras as a whole, at the vedas, puranas and the tantras, there is definitely evidence showing that animal sacrifice, meat eating, intoxication and sex were part of the daily life of everyday people and even the rishis and that there were rituals involving these.

Why don't you quote the so-called sastras ?


About the ashvamedha yajna, this is not a western interpretation. This interpretation was available in India and was also used by respected scholars like Uvata and Mahidhara. People only started objecting to such translation when the English translation became more wide spread and the general public could read them.

That shows your shallow knowledge. Best of luck !

OM

sambya
19 June 2010, 10:52 PM
about ashwamedha , i have always held the view that it was indeed sacrifice . in our school days we had simplified ramayana and mahabharata in vernacular language . there too i have read that the horse was sacrificed at the end after it returned conquering all the lands .

however now i hear that it was not sacrificed , i am ever more curious to know the exact facts .

dont begin by saying that they came back to life after the yajna got over through the occult powers of yogis who revived them --- a common explantion provided by iskcon !!!! :)

does anyone here have the texts of ashwamedha yajna and its translations ? i personally know very basic sanskrit , but i know reputed sanskrit scholars personally and can get the texts examined by them . perhaps yajvan ji can also help .


in poet jayadevas geetagovindam he bows to bhagavan buddha by saying--


nindasi yaj&#241;a-vidher ahaha s'ruti-i-j&#226;tam
Decrying slaughter according the rules of Vedic sacrifice,
sadaya-hridaya dars'ita-pas'u-gh&#226;tam
You are compassionate of heart with the poor animals.
kes'ava dhrita-buddha-s'ar&#238;ra
O Kes'ava in the form of Buddha! Hail Hari! Lord of the universe.

jaya jagad&#238;s'a hare, jaya jagad&#238;s'a hare, jaya jagad&#238;s'a hare




that also seems to suggest that animal sacrifice indeed was present in vedic age . jayadeva lived about a 1000 years ago .

isavasya
19 June 2010, 11:06 PM
It is quite disgusting to go through this thread and see the amount of false and fake knowledge that is being spread and exaggerated generalization which is being done. Every other moron is coming with a stupid link of a obsolete ritual to convince others that his perverted and licentious fantasy is common phenomenon in india.

I will like to talk about , Alcohol,drug, sex once again, in context of Indian society and veda dharm.


Alcohol and meat - Veda dharm which is shruti and apaurusheya has no mention of any ritual which involves Alcohol. It is definitely tantric texts and perverted tantrics who use alcohal in their rituals. 90&#37; Hindus in India wouldn't even have ever heard about any ritual involving alcohol. I am not saying alcohol is not consumed in Indian society, but that is by those who wish to do it, it has no sanction of vedas. Now like a puppet of westerners don't say Soma drink was alcohol, soma was a energy drink (fools no body drinks alcohol before going on war with asuras, so soma is not equal to alcohol. That's all). As far as meat is concerned vedas dont preach for or against meat eating, but other texts do, well meat is considered tamsic food, so if one wants to live brahmanical life style he should avoid it, though it is not prohibited for others. But you will have to pay the consequences of killing the animals, that is sure. At the same time meat being used in dharmic rituals is only confined till few sects.

Drugs - Amazing to see few people even brought drugs in Hindu society. Well first of all Indian people don't have enough money to indulge in drugs, second drugs is only limited to selected elite class and their too it's not common. Many efforts were made by to infuse drugs in Indian society, but all of them failed.

Sex - Again sex is a part of one's grihsta jeevan, one can have wild sex with one's husband/wife all day long, there is no prohibition on that, but there is no mention of sex in dharmic rituals in vedas (I don't care about man-made scriptures). Nor is there mention of any sex outside marriage, people who support it are monsters. They have lost their minds.



Though I have a great respect for real westerners adopting Sanatan dharm like eastern mind ji, yajvan ji, nayasurya ji, I will once again say, I don't have one bit of respect for Indians who leave India , go to west, and then start spreading things what they like. It is very clear that false information is coming from Indians who are living in west, these westernised Indians see dharm as objects of their own desires. I will once again say, scriptures can't be understood by reading a few quotes, you need experience, see life , move in differnt parts of India and then understand them.



As for BUDDHA- Buddha himself was a meat eater, now who has spread that buddha was not a meat eater ? He died by eating stale pork. It is communist rascals who are coming up with cooked up stories to preach Hindus that Buddhism and janism brought concept of vegetarianism In india. Also Buddha was no avataar of Visnu,If vaishnava purans are to be taken authentic then even adi shankara too is to be taken as a demon. It was only to assimilate buddhists that scriptures were interpolated to prove buddha was a avataar, but there is no truth about that. Even buddhists and jains have tried to assimilate Hindu deities in their scriptures.

Sahasranama
19 June 2010, 11:06 PM
Why don't you quote the so-called sastras ?


Why should I, you can look them up yourself. If you want to ignore them that's your choice. It's common for modern Hindus to disregard any sexual symbolism and animal sacrifice in the scriptures as later addition only on the basis that it's imprudish and couldn't possibly be part of the ancient text. Actually the reverse is true, later scholars have tried to clear up a lot of the "shameful subjects" in the scriptures.


That shows your shallow knowledge. Best of luck !

OMYou said the twisted mind of western scholars made these translations up, but they were found in the Indian commentaries of Mahidhara and Uvata before the vedas were translated to English. So it's either a valid interpretation or a twisted fabrication of the Indian mind. But it's not a fabrication of the western mind.

atanu
19 June 2010, 11:24 PM
Vannakkam all: This reminds me of my aunts' use of one line of biblical scripture to excuse her hidden imbibing. Funny thing was, because if her, I actually had one line of the Bible memorized at one time Timothy 6: 23 I think. Drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake. Something like that. Yet I heard the Lord's Prayer every day at school for 7 odd years, but never got past Our father Who Art...

Namaste

I like your posts despite all other things. :) Instinct is usually before dawn of Saraswati (the word). Thus to a large extent, being a man means being a rationaliser -- at least till Saraswati arrives. I think, only a very few will be born with knowledge of Saraswati (word) that overcomes the instinct from the beginning. I think that it is another extreme thing to condemn the so-called vices. For example, in Yoga Vashista, Lord Shiva teaches Vashista as below:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=573 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=573)



The LORD continued: One should contemplate that the Lord is the intelligence in the body. The various functions and faculties in the body serve that intelligence as consorts serve their lord. The mind is the messenger who brings and presents to the Lord the knowledge of the three worlds. The two fundamental energies, viz. the energy of wisdom (Jnana sakti) and the energy of action (kriya sakti), are the consorts of the Lord. Diverse aspects of knowledge are his ornaments. The organs of action are the gates through which the Lord enters the outside world. ‘I am that infinite self which is indivisible; I remain full and infinite, thus the intelligence dwells in the body.

He who contemplates in this manner is equanimity itself, his behavior is equanimous guided by equal vision. He has reached the state of natural goodness and inner purity and is beautiful in every aspect of his being. He worships the Lord who is the intelligence that pervades his entire body.

This worship is performed day and night perpetually, with the objects that are effortlessly obtained, which are offered to the Lord with a mind firmly established in equanimity and in the right spirit (for the Lord is consciousness and cares only for the right spirit}. The Lord should be worshipped with everything that is obtained without effort. One should never make the least effort to attain that which one does not possess. The Lord should be worshipped by means of all the enjoyments that the body enjoys, through eating, drinking, being with one’s consort and such other pleasures. The Lord should be worshipped with the illnesses one experiences and with every sort of unhappiness or suffering one experiences. The Lord should be worshipped with all of one’s activities, including life and death and all of one’s dreams. The Lord should be worshipped with one’s poverty and prosperity. The Lord should be worshipped even with fights and quarrels as well as with, sports and other pastimes, and with the manifestations of the emotions of attraction and aversion. The Lord should be adored with the noble qualities of a pious heart, friendship, compassion, joy and indifference.

The Lord should be worshipped with all kinds of pleasures that are granted to one unsought, whether those pleasures are sanctioned by the scriptures, etc. or forbidden by them. The Lord should be worshipped with those which are regarded as desirable and others which are regarded as undesirable, with those that are considered appropriate and others that are considered inappropriate. For this worship, one should abandon what is lost and one should accept and receive what has been obtained without effort.



The LORD continued: One should engage oneself in this worship at all times, established in supreme equanimity in regard to all the percepts, whether they be pleasant or unpleasant. One should regard everything as good and auspicious. Realising that everything is the one self, one should worship the self in this spirit. One should look with equal vision upon that which is pleasant and beautiful through and through, and that which is unendurably unpleasant.

One should abandon the divisive notions of ‘This I am’ and ‘This I am not’ and realise that ‘All this is indeed Brahman’, the one indivisible and infinite consciousness. In that spirit one should worship the self. At all times, in all forms and their modifications, one should worship the self in and through all that one obtains. One should worship the self after having abandoned the distinction between the desirable and the undesirable, or even while relying on such a distinction (but using them as the materials for the worship).

Without craving and without rejecting, that which is effortlessly and naturally obtained may be enjoyed. One should not get excited or depressed when faced with insignificant or significant objects, just as neither sky nor space is so affected by the diverse objects that exist and grow in it. One should worship the self, without psychological perversion, with every object that is obtained purely on account of the coincidence of the time, place and activity whether they are popularly known as good or as not-good.

In this procedure for the worship of the self, whatever article has been mentioned as being necessary for the worship is of the same nature as all others, though the expressions used are different. Equanimity is sweetness itself and this sweetness is beyond the senses and the mind. Whatever is touched by that equanimity instantly becomes sweet, whatever its description or definition may be. That alone is regarded as worship which is performed when one is in a state of equanimity when the mind has become utterly quiescent without the least movement of thought, when there is effortless absence of perversity. Established in this state of equanimity, the wise man should experience infinite expansion within himself while carrying out his natural actions externally without craving or rejection. Such is the nature of the worshipper of this intelligence. In his case, delusion, ignorance and ego sense do not arise even in dream. Remain in this state, O sage experiencing everything as a child does. Worship the Lord of this body (the intelligence that pervades it) with all that is brought to you by time, circumstance and environment, and rest in supreme peace, devoid of desire.


The LORD continued:
Whatever you do and whenever you do it (or refrain from doing it) - all that is worship of the Lord who is pure consciousness. By regarding all that as the worship of the self who is the Lord, he is delighted. Likes and dislikes, attraction and aversion, are not found in the self independent of its essential nature; they are mere words. Even the concepts indicated by words like ‘sovereignty’, ‘poverty’, ‘pleasure’, ‘pain’, ‘one’s own’ and ‘others’, are in fact worship of the self, for the conceiving intelligence is the self. Knowledge of the cosmic being alone is the proper worship of the cosmic being.


Eventually, the existence itself is a worship. And Vigyan Bhairava tantra is a tribute to all life. It teaches us of divine in every act and everyone.

Story of your aunt reminds me of another, which is sort of reverse rationalising. My father used to remind us of this often (he was against prudishness etc.). The story goes like this: A father enquires "Who is there in the mandir (home altar)?". Son hurriedly shouts back "I have not eaten the banana".

Knowing that in me the instinct is unyieldingly stronger than the good will, which wants to be a good boy like Rama but fails, I personally prefer surrender. Let the tantriks follow their own path and let others follow their.



I am now drawn at least to befriend the Nepalis who come to our temple and love to take the ends of the pumpkin plants.

How funny. My father would bring some from Bengal everytime he visited. We are also mad for the taste of 'Kumro daga' (Pumpkin end or something). This reminds me of variety. I have found some food of Thailand closer to my mother's cooked food rather the ubiquitous red pepper-onion-tomato paste fried in oil that goes in the name of Indian food world over. To me, the paste is an insult. Similarly, some twenty years back, in Paris, some of us were taken to dinner by our french host. Being unable to correlate between the names of the dishes and their actual content, we settled for something intuitively. I then found to my chagrin my host eating a sort of fish curry with rice. Well that was what I should have ordered.

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
19 June 2010, 11:40 PM
Why should I, you can look them up yourself. If you want to ignore them that's your choice. It's common for modern Hindus to disregard any sexual symbolism and animal sacrifice in the scriptures as later addition only on the basis that it's imprudish and couldn't possibly be part of the ancient text. Actually the reverse is true, later scholars have tried to clear up a lot of the "shameful subjects" in the scriptures.

You said the twisted mind of western scholars made these translations up, but they were found in the Indian commentaries of Mahidhara and Uvata before the vedas were translated to English. So it's either a valid interpretation or a twisted fabrication of the Indian mind. But it's not a fabrication of the western mind.

Be happy in drinking and sexual orgies for your spiritual journey. May God save you !

Your knowledge is so low that I don't consider you fit for engaging in a worthwhile discussion.

OM

atanu
20 June 2010, 01:14 AM
Alcohol is used in some Hindu rituals. In Ampang, Malaysia, I saw a statue of the South Indian God Sanggili Karuppan (also called Karuppu Sami) at the back of a Muniswarar temple.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6EGjAQ-bw7o/SWJDVSLGf_I/AAAAAAAAArk/Ad1hqdchNls/s400/KLAmpang&#37;20004.jpg

As you can see, some Guinness (which isn't even vegetarian) has been placed in front of Him as an offering. During the puja, I was very surprised to the see the priest light a beedi (a type of Indian cigarette) and place it in Sanggili Karuppan's mouth!

Namaste Scott

Beautiful example. Almost in all discussions we get polarised and fail to see the essence. I realise that i have been a constant fixture in polarisation, all through. Yajvan Ji will smile and say "Yes. Your natal Sun and Moon are 180 degress apart -- that is why."

There is a bhakti book called Shiva Bhakta Vilasam, which tells stories of extraordinary Shiva bhaktas. There is a story of hunter Kannapar who loves Shiva by feeding Shiva meat from his own mouth and washes Shiva with his spit. The conventional priest was shocked by all this. But Shiva humiliates the righteous priest in favour of Kanappar. The story is a must read for all of us. Kanappar did not hesitate to give up his two eyes for the benefit of Lord.

There are two key aspects:

1. Cultural perspective: Kanappar was a hunter and knew probably nothing else but killing and meat eating. From that environment, he loved God more than the conventional priest ever could do. So, what should Lord do?

For this, I believe, it is unwise to blindly criticise practices of others.

2. Pranapratistha: Idol that we worship is our own prana. It is established externally for worship purpose. Often, Shiva Linga is propitiated by betel leaves and other items of popular consumption and that may appear asastraic to many brahmanas. However, it is sweet to offer Lord with love whatever that one consumes. Since, ultimately it is Lord, as agnivaisvanara that is the bhoktar -- the enjoyer. Also, it is the bhava that is important. And hypocrisy, in my opinion, is low.

The main goal remains freedom from bondage of sensual prison and towards that, Meat, Alcohol, and Sex are more of detriments than helpful. Veda and Dharma Shastra, as noted by Isvasya, do recommend moderation/abstention. On the other hand, sexual congress with mate in the night, when engaged with the knowledge of sacrifice, is described as Brahmacharya in an upanishad (sex during day is warned against). Thus, IMO, it is more important to be true to one's one's own pracitices.

Om Namah Shivaya

Sahasranama
20 June 2010, 02:03 AM
Be happy in drinking and sexual orgies for your spiritual journey. May God save you !

Your knowledge is so low that I don't consider you fit for engaging in a worthwhile discussion.

OM

I am not engaging in those activities, I am aware though that these things happen amongst large groups of people, do you think Hinduism is only fit for people who live pious lives?

You seem to have some repressed issues.

devotee
20 June 2010, 02:05 AM
I am not engaging in those activities, I am aware though that these things happen amongst large groups of people, do you think Hinduism is only fit for people who live pious lives?

You seem to have some repressed issues.

Did you read my last post ?

OM

Sahasranama
20 June 2010, 02:26 AM
Yes, I did.

There is an ideal way of living for spiritual aspirants and there is reality.

Rules of worship are very important. Of course, animal flesh should not come near the mainstream temples and alcohol and sex should never be part of most mainstream rituals and temples. That would defile the sanction of the ritual and the ritualists. I could never imagine such things being conducted in the name of Hanuman, Ganesha or Krishna for example. But there are tantrik deties in Hinduism who are ugra and some people worship them seperately from the mainstream deities. This is not something that is required from every Hindu, but it's also not necessarily an evil practice.

I hate to mention the Christians, but calling rituals evil...

Well, unless people are sacrificing or hurting another human being, there is not much evil to these rituals. Scientist kill animals, butchers kill animals, but when an animal is ritually slaughtered in the name of some scary godess before it's consumed, it's suddenly evil?

Personally, I would not engage in these vamachara rituals. I even refused to dissect a frog or an animal's liver in biology class, but that was my personal choice. I didn't start calling my classmates evil though.

Hinduism is valuable for both people who are dharmic and for people who are adharmic. It's not like Christianity where only the pious people can play. One name that accures in the Lalita Sahasranama is dharma-adharma-vivarjita.

devotee
20 June 2010, 04:04 AM
There is an ideal way of living for spiritual aspirants and there is reality.

Rules of worship are very important. Of course, animal flesh should not come near the mainstream temples and alcohol and sex should never be part of most mainstream rituals and temples. That would defile the sanction of the ritual and the ritualists. I could never imagine such things being conducted in the name of Hanuman, Ganesha or Krishna for example. But there are tantrik deties in Hinduism who are ugra and some people worship them seperately from the mainstream deities. This is not something that is required from every Hindu, but it's also not necessarily an evil practice.

Exactly ! Now we can talk. What I am saying that such practices are not part of mainstream Hinduism and is not looked upon something pious by Hindus in general. However, if you see MH's post, he is trying to portary as if it is common to Hindus to indulge in such activities.

We should not try to make exceptions as rules. There is no difference between the profane and the pure & still there is a difference. There is no difference from point of view of the Self-realised man ... but it makes a lot of diference for the common seeker.

"Evil" can be really evil and may not be really evil ... it depends upon the status of the seeker. I have seen Siddhas from "Bhairava worshippers" smoking gaanjaa. But I should not try to copy it nor should I propagate this idea. The Tantra (involving drugs and sex etc.), Vaamaachaar, Shmashaan seva (living and meditating on burial grounds) are highly dangerous paths and have been abondoned by the Hindus in general.

Portraying that it applies to all Hindus or even majority of Hindus ... is wrong & harmful to new-comers to Hinduism. That is what I want to say. The poison is poison for a human being ... when you become Shiva then the same Poison can do no harm to you. So, treat poison as poison unless you are Shiva.

OM

NayaSurya
20 June 2010, 09:17 AM
There's a school. Kindergarten with children age 5 and it goes all the way up to the Senior class who are often between the ages of 17-19.

It would be foolish for a Senior to go into this class and start making fun of the children for not being able to read well.

We would try very hard, very patiently to help them if we did see the lacking in their education. But, ultimately the kindergartener is not ready for the full wealth of wisdom which could pour from the very learned Senior.

When we speak of SD in this example it could be lifetimes before one was ready.

So from this we understand it takes firm, patient, guidance...with compassion.

Which I think is happening...from many posts.

Now this example also can be extrapolated further.

Would we allow a Senior to go into an assembly program where children of mixed educational levels was listening and have them say things such as drinking alcohol is perfectly acceptable?

Of course not. That senior would be removed...because we as parents know children will be influenced...and we try to make sure our values are the ones they experience first.

If this person was speaking to all Seniors....they would have already learned enough from their own education and parental encouragement to make that decision for themself.

These higher educated individuals are not fresh minded individuals soaking up information?

Add to this that the cultural issues with alcohol/drugs/sex/meat in many areas of the world is profoundly destroying children's lives because abuse is rampant?

Well isn't this the situation we face?

There's really no disagreement here, simply location of the conversation is not ideal?

atanu
20 June 2010, 10:24 AM
Alcohol and meat - Veda dharm which is shruti and apaurusheya has no mention of any ritual which involves Alcohol. It is definitely tantric texts and perverted tantrics who use alcohal in their rituals. 90% Hindus in India wouldn't even have ever heard about any ritual involving alcohol.

Namaste Isa

I hope you will not mind a little bit of intervention here.

Yajur Veda indeed talks of use of surA (alcohol) as it also talks of use of milk. But these two items are to be used for different purposes and by different types of worshippers.

People are born in very diverse environments. What is applicable for a Brahmana may not be applicable to many others who are born in different kind of set up. Tantric texts are not cheap and speak of highest wisdom and highest goal. The spectrum of these texts is wide, encompassing paths for all types of personalities. In tantra, there is a category of Vira type of sadhakas, who are of the highest type because they have complete control over situations. Entry into Tantra cannot take place without a proper guru and the methods that involve sexual congress or offering and consumption of alcohol etc, are not for everyone. Only the vira type of sadhaka is free.

Devotee is correct in his saying that first one should be Shiva and then do as Shiva-- take poison or take honey, since both are same to Shiva.

Surely, it is wrong to advocate that Alcohol, Sex, and Meat were/are the common items of worship for all hindus. If you check up old posts, you will find that this theory persistently comes up in some posts and when opposed, is termed as rant. IMO, anger at universalism and endeavour to universalize an esoteric path are contradictory.
The general way of hinduism is the middle path with control and austerity, laced with good karma -- and tolerance for what is different.

However, again, i will point out that among the highest of gurus, Yoga Vashista is held as the Crown Jewel and therein (I repeat), Lord Shiva Himself teaches of a continuous worship:




From Yoga Vasista

The LORD continued: One should contemplate that the Lord is the intelligence in the body. The various functions and faculties in the body serve that intelligence as consorts serve their lord. The mind is the messenger who brings and presents to the Lord the knowledge of the three worlds. The two fundamental energies, viz. the energy of wisdom (Jnana sakti) and the energy of action (kriya sakti), are the consorts of the Lord. Diverse aspects of knowledge are his ornaments. The organs of action are the gates through which the Lord enters the outside world. ‘I am that infinite self which is indivisible; I remain full and infinite, thus the intelligence dwells in the body.

He who contemplates in this manner is equanimity itself, his behavior is equanimous guided by equal vision. He has reached the state of natural goodness and inner purity and is beautiful in every aspect of his being. He worships the Lord who is the intelligence that pervades his entire body.

This worship is performed day and night perpetually, with the objects that are effortlessly obtained, which are offered to the Lord with a mind firmly established in equanimity and in the right spirit (for the Lord is consciousness and cares only for the right spirit}. The Lord should be worshipped with everything that is obtained without effort. One should never make the least effort to attain that which one does not possess. The Lord should be worshipped by means of all the enjoyments that the body enjoys, through eating, drinking, being with one’s consort and such other pleasures. The Lord should be worshipped with the illnesses one experiences and with every sort of unhappiness or suffering one experiences. The Lord should be worshipped with all of one’s activities, including life and death and all of one’s dreams. The Lord should be worshipped with one’s poverty and prosperity. The Lord should be worshipped even with fights and quarrels as well as with, sports and other pastimes, and with the manifestations of the emotions of attraction and aversion. The Lord should be adored with the noble qualities of a pious heart, friendship, compassion, joy and indifference.

The Lord should be worshipped with all kinds of pleasures that are granted to one unsought, whether those pleasures are sanctioned by the scriptures, etc. or forbidden by them. The Lord should be worshipped with those which are regarded as desirable and others which are regarded as undesirable, with those that are considered appropriate and others that are considered inappropriate. For this worship, one should abandon what is lost and one should accept and receive what has been obtained without effort.

For the highest sadhaka (approximately Vira in Tantrik language), the path is sahaja. Vira has no desire and utmost control. Every moment He worships the indwelling MASTER with whatever comes to him unsought. You will note that the statement of Lord "One should never make the least effort to attain that which one does not possess", will seem ridiculous for us who have not discarded the false knowledge of individuality. It will seem ridiculous to 99% of readers because we think that it is the individual who is the doer. In such circumstance, a teaching such as "worship Lord by Sex, Meat, and Madira", to common people is a disaster because such a sadhka will individually enjoy these and accrue disastrous karma.

We, who are in the middle have opinions and judgements. But for the Jnani all is Shiva. Similarly, mature followers of Tantra methods do not come into arguments. For the Jnani there is no Karma as there is no individual doer. I add that sex is not banned in scriptures. In fact, sex is taught as a sacrifice of agni unto agni in Vedanta.

The above is my view only.

Om Namah Shivaya.

sambya
20 June 2010, 12:47 PM
once again , does someone here have the original texts on ashwamedha and go-medha yajna ( not to mention the nara-medha) ??

i want to know what exactly is written down there !!!

were the animals sacrificed at the end or not ? till now i knew that they were ....

MahaHrada
20 June 2010, 06:18 PM
-deleted-

atanu
20 June 2010, 11:33 PM
once again , does someone here have the original texts on ashwamedha and go-medha yajna ( not to mention the nara-medha) ??

i want to know what exactly is written down there !!!

were the animals sacrificed at the end or not ? till now i knew that they were ....

Namaste Sambya

I had once posted the Asvamedha text in HDF. But surprisingly, seeing your post i searched and i cannot find it now.

I remember reading in Kanchi seer's book that some veda karma kanda procedures indeed required animal sacrifice. But, IMO, as with every other procedure, the Jnana and Bhakti have mental equivalents.

I have not heard of Nara medha (I have heard of Purusha medha). Purushamedha, Asvamedha or Go-Medha repectively pertain to Purusha (Soul), Asva (Virat-Mind) and Go (Vak).

Om Namah Shivaya

sambya
21 June 2010, 01:25 AM
Namaste Sambya

I had once posted the Asvamedha text in HDF. But surprisingly, seeing your post i searched and i cannot find it now.

I remember reading in Kanchi seer's book that some veda karma kanda procedures indeed required animal sacrifice. But, IMO, as with every other procedure, the Jnana and Bhakti have mental equivalents.

I have not heard of Nara medha (I have heard of Purusha medha). Purushamedha, Asvamedha or Go-Medha repectively pertain to Purusha (Soul), Asva (Virat-Mind) and Go (Vak).

Om Namah Shivaya


oh ! its a pity you cant find it . :(

i cannot be certain about naramedha . maybe im getting confused about purusha medha . .........anyways thanks for answering that .

so it was animal sacrifice at the end ..

atanu
21 June 2010, 02:22 AM
oh ! its a pity you cant find it . :(
so it was animal sacrifice at the end ..

Namaste Sambya

Yaaah. You can say that since animal (pasu) is none but one's ego. :) Pasupati is the Lord to whom the Pasu should be submitted.

YV ii. 1. 3.
The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf (beast), he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds. One who is engaged in a struggle should offer the dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes like Visnu and conquers these worlds.


That is how I understand it.

Om Namah Shivaya

Eastern Mind
21 June 2010, 07:25 AM
One who is engaged in a struggle should offer the dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes like Visnu and conquers these worlds.

Om Namah Shivaya

Vannakkam: Is in't also possible that the beast is a metaphor for our own instincts. Some days we behave like beasts, gobbling food, having not so restrained sexual desire, etc. Just a thought.

There are such metaphors around.

Aum Namasivaya

atanu
21 June 2010, 09:00 AM
Vannakkam: Is in't also possible that the beast is a metaphor for our own instincts. Some days we behave like beasts, gobbling food, having not so restrained sexual desire, etc. Just a thought.

There are such metaphors around.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste

Yes. In my understanding the pasu (beast) is our instinct or our ego or our individual will that seeks benefit for itself at the cost of other souls.

Om Namah Shivaya

Sahasranama
01 November 2010, 03:05 PM
once again , does someone here have the original texts on ashwamedha and go-medha yajna ( not to mention the nara-medha) ??

i want to know what exactly is written down there !!!

were the animals sacrificed at the end or not ? till now i knew that they were ....

Well, I have sanskrit commentary by Mahidhara and Uvata, if you are still on the forum, I could probably scan them, so you can get them reviewed by the sanskrit scholars. I think the commenataries of Mahidhara and Uvata are pretty clear, but I am not sure if these sacrifices were performed literally as they are prescribed here. I am not even bothered by the killing of the horse after reading this text, the necrofilia and the bestiality are far more concerning. These commentaries are evidence that these ideas came from India, not from the western scholars. It's not just from one person either, but from various sources. The author of the commentary was also a tantrik practioner who wrote the Mantra Mahodadhi. Tantra uses Sandhya Bhasha, language with dubious or hidden meanings. The only conclusion I can draw from reading the commentaries is that it has a erotic symbolic meaning that I don't understand. Vedic mantras are said to have at least three meanings besides the ritualistic interpretation: adhibhautik or natural, adhidaivik or divine and adhyatmik or spiritual. This is the view of Yaska which is in disagreement with the views of te purva mimansa and also in disagreement with the view of Shankaracharya who believed that only the upanishads had any spiritual meaning. The view of Dayananda is unacceptable though, he tried to cover up these meanings with his own imaginary translations where he says that adultrous women should be punished by the King. When did the vedas instruct the king to interfere in people's personal lives? It's more in line with the protestant and islamic morals Swami Dayananda was influenced by though.

It is not like the entire commentary of Mahidhara is filled with sexuality, it only appears in the section of the ashvamedha yajna, for so far as I have read. The early english indologist translator named Griffith actually refused to translate these passages in English or in Latin. They used Latin for more obscure translations. You can see at sacredtexts.com that some mantras of chapter 23 in the Shukla Yajurveda are dotted away. People who like to bring shame to Hinduism love to excessively quote these passages. I think it's a minor issue, I don't think Hindus should react shameful or angry, these rituals have little to do with Hinduism as it is practiced today. Srila Prabhupada quotes from the brahmavaivarta purana and says that the Ashvamedha Yajna is one of the five things that is forbidden in the age of Kali (*), so nobody is going to perform this yajna properly anytime soon. The dubious nature of the ashvamedha yajna may also explain why Rama sent Sita to the forest before he was going to perform the yajna, in the yajna he used a golden murti of Sita, while Sita was safe at the ashrama of valmiki. This only adds to the purity of Sita. Most Hindus do accept other dubious stories like Brahma being adultrous with Sarasvati and Shiva taking one of brahma's heads. The ashvamedha is just another one of these controversial things in Hinduism. I don't think it has any implication on morality as we see it, the rituals were not meant for this time and age.

(*) (http://vedabase.net/a/asvamedham)aśvamedhaḿ (http://vedabase.net/a/asvamedham) gavālambhaḿ
sannyāsaḿ (http://vedabase.net/s/sannyasam) pala (http://vedabase.net/p/pala)-paitṛkam (http://vedabase.net/p/paitrkam)
devareṇa (http://vedabase.net/d/devarena) sutotpattiḿ
kalau (http://vedabase.net/k/kalau) pa&#241;ca (http://vedabase.net/p/panca) vivarjayet (http://vedabase.net/v/vivarjayet)

(http://vedabase.net/v/vivarjayet)
"In this age of Kali (http://vedabase.net/k/kali), five acts are forbidden: the offering of a horse in sacrifice, the offering of a cow in sacrifice, the acceptance of the order of sannyāsa (http://vedabase.net/s/sannyasa), the offering of oblations of flesh to the forefathers, and a man's begetting children in his brother's wife."

http://tripatlas.com/Ashvamedha

kd gupta
02 November 2010, 12:14 AM
Ashvamedha does not mean sacrifice of horse . Ashva+medha , ashva means useful . Ashvattha means useful tree which is banyan tree[ peepal ]. Gita 34/10 smritirmedhaadhritih kshamaa. Here MEDHA means wisdom . gita 10/18 medhaavee cchinnasamshayah. Here MEDHAVI means having wisdom .

So Ashvamedha yajna means the yajna which is arranged with wisdom for usefulness .

Here it is to be stated that Vedas contain Brahman part which is spiritual and termed as Upanishads , people of spirituality do not care for the ritual part or yajna . Mainly yajna contains offerings of SOMA [ madhu] which includes grains honey butter and specially sugar .

jasdir
02 November 2010, 02:10 AM
When any Marshel-Art student or student of any "Art" want to get progress or devlopment to become master of which pirticular "Art" , than he is told some precautions by teacher for the devlopment of "Art",

Similarly:

Meat, Alcohal, and Sex are some precautions told by a spiritual teacher in spirituality, for the devlopment of spiritual progress of the student towards internal spiritual planes or to cocentrate in third eye meditations,to become master in spirituality.

jasdir.

Sahasranama
02 November 2010, 04:42 AM
I think both the ritual interpretation and the spiritual interpretation of the mantra bhaga are correct. But indeed the ritualistic interpretation is not important at all, especially in this time and age.

yajvan
03 November 2010, 08:03 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Here it is to be stated that Vedas contain Brahman part which is spiritual and termed as Upanishads , people of spirituality do not care for the ritual part or yajna . Mainly yajna contains offerings of SOMA [ madhu] which includes grains honey butter and specially sugar .


There is another view on this... not opposed, just another orientation. The ritual (physical) part of yajña is the expression of what is going on within the yajvan (worshipper). It is the physical symbol of the inner quality.
Each item, the flowers, sandal wood, fruits, betel nut and the like are all part of the offering ( usually 16, which is a number associated with wholeness) are symbols.


It is when these are not in sync ( the inner and outer) then 'ritual' becomes something of less value. Many mis-understand the symbols, the meaning and that reduces understanding and in some cases just makes the whole thing a mechanized event.

praṇām

kd gupta
04 November 2010, 12:21 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



There is another view on this... not opposed, just another orientation. The ritual (physical) part of yajña is the expression of what is going on within the yajvan (worshipper). It is the physical symbol of the inner quality.
Each item, the flowers, sandal wood, fruits, betel nut and the like are all part of the offering ( usually 16, which is a number associated with wholeness) are symbols.


It is when these are not in sync ( the inner and outer) then 'ritual' becomes something of less value. Many mis-understand the symbols, the meaning and that reduces understanding and in some cases just makes the whole thing a mechanized event.

praṇām


Nice Yajvanji
That is a good translation of gita shloka 32/4

Evam bahuvidhaa yajnaa vitataa brahmano mukhe;
Karmajaan viddhi taan sarvaan evam jnaatwaa vimokshyase.

Thus, various kinds of yajnas are spread out before Brahman (literally at the mouth or
face of Brahman). Know them all as born of action, and knowing thus, thou shalt be liberated.

Here I shall ADD that bhagwannam sankirtan is a decent yajna too .