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Ao
24 June 2010, 10:45 PM
As string theory, the best chance for a Theory of Everything so far, makes its advances, what can we learn about ultimate reality from studies like the following?

"US experiment hints at 'multiple God particles'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10313875.stm

Further, if science can in fact identify the base unit of all matter, and even dark matter (probably a particle functioning as a wave), would that help us better understand brahman?

upsydownyupsy mv ss
28 June 2010, 06:44 AM
As string theory, the best chance for a Theory of Everything so far, makes its advances, what can we learn about ultimate reality from studies like the following?

"US experiment hints at 'multiple God particles'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10313875.stm

Further, if science can in fact identify the base unit of all matter, and even dark matter (probably a particle functioning as a wave), would that help us better understand brahman?

Yes, any knowledge of any sort at all can help us. Even 1+1 = 2 can help us, everything can. Science will ultimately lead us to philosophies. So, it does help too, Science is a minute, negligibly small part of knowledge, but it is at the same time infinite and limitless. To tell you the truth, it was science which led me to meta-science! Just as Newtonian Physics led to Quantum physics!

Onkara
28 June 2010, 08:34 AM
Further, if science can in fact identify the base unit of all matter, and even dark matter (probably a particle functioning as a wave), would that help us better understand brahman?
Hi Andrew
Science will help us question ourselves. Science such as the example of a particle functioning as a wave may help us to question the structure of our body and the material world around us. We can know that that which we take as real is actually consisting of particles smaller than our senses can register. This may lead us to question our senses and where the limit of our self lies i.e. are we really limited to a body, if so what is inside the body which is stable and so my real Self if everything is in fact particles etc?

They can help the inquiry into Brahman and Maya. However the Self only reveals Itself to Itself. In other words it is helpful but not the answer itself as Brahman is both That and beyond That, it is this intuitively knowing which takes the aspirant from being a student of science to a knower of Brahman. For science too rests in Brahman.

I feel inclined to add that it is the scriptures (Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita etc) which really cut through to the core, and kindly suggest they are not put aside by any serious person wishing to embrace both science and Advaita (I don't target this at anyone in particular of course).

Best wishes! Thanks for the topic :)

devotee
28 June 2010, 07:19 PM
Namaste Andrew,

I am a Mechanical Engineer & I can say that Physics helped me in understanding Advaita concept well. So, it must work for you too. :)

You may like to see the thread : "Aham Brahmasmi" & particularly these pages :

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4824
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4824&page=2
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4824&page=7

You can see my posts in these threads too :

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5123

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846&page=16

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846&page=17

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2438

May be it helps.

OM

sambya
28 June 2010, 11:04 PM
understand brahman ?

well, if you are are speaking of truly understanding it , then the answer would be no . only sincere sadhana can help one to understand brahman . brahman is vakyamanatita , abangmanasagocharam ---beyong mind and speech . even the understanding from sadhana would be incomplete , since no one can know him fully .

but if you are talking about getting a fair idea of how the nature works etc , then the answer would be yes . you can know material things with material science . and that aqquaired knowledge can help you in solidifying your belief in god .
scientific evidence can suggest existence of god .
or as devotee has said , a knowledge of science might help you in understanding the difficult concepts of advaita better . thats it .

understanding brahman is beyond all those !!

atanu
29 June 2010, 08:28 AM
Namaste andrewoberg and friends

Many frontier physicists are known to be votaries of Vedanta. Physics may help to point towards but will not be ever able to know the knower, which is the chief characterics of Brahman. Upanishads pithily explain: How the knower is to be known? Or "Who will know the knower?"

Physicists and scientists may know many things but rare are scientists who may know the knower -- i.e. himself. Brahman is desribed as indescribable but also as knowable in scripture. But Brahman is known through introversion/involution of mind and not through extroversion of mind that is the method of science. The target for science are the sensual objects. Brahman, on the other hand, is the subject who has the sensual apparatus.

Om Namah Shivaya

Ao
29 June 2010, 07:51 PM
But Brahman is known through introversion/involution of mind

Thanks all for your interesting comments. Brahman is well beyond physics, of course, but I think science like this can help us open our minds. And it's encouraging to see science supporting beliefs like those found in the Upanishads.

@Atanu, would you mind explaining your comment (quoted above) in more depth? I assume you are talking about meditation, but what is the best way to meditate?

sanjaya
30 June 2010, 05:20 PM
Hi Andrew. Just a word of caution. I would be very careful about forming any religious belief around something like string theory. In the physics department where I work, string theory is heavily frowned upon. And rightly so. There is thus far absolutely no evidence to back up its claims. It's still just empty mathematics. So what if it turns out to be wrong? Does that mean that all of the things we can learn about God from string theory are wrong?

Best, I think, to understand Brahman through meditation and Scriptures, which aren't up for debate like science is.

Eastern Mind
30 June 2010, 05:41 PM
Vannakkam Sanjaya:

The thread title here gives me trouble: "But what if you can't understand physics?" (like me) Of course I am not a genius such as yourself. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good thing understanding physics is no prerequisite to understanding brahman, or I would be lost forever in the halls of science dreaming about the large lecture theatre where I managed to barely pass a first year university physics course. I remember the professor's main objective though: to make us all know he was a lot smarter than the rest of us by giving us fourth year tests in first year physics. Class average was usually somewhere between 10 to 15 %.

Aum Namasivaya

namahsivaya
30 June 2010, 06:05 PM
Good thing understanding physics is no prerequisite to understanding brahman, or I would be lost forever in the halls of science dreaming about the large lecture theatre where I managed to barely pass a first year university physics course. I remember the professor's main objective though: to make us all know he was a lot smarter than the rest of us by giving us fourth year tests in first year physics. Class average was usually somewhere between 10 to 15 %.
Aum Namasivaya

Namaste Eastern Mindji,

As someone who will be heading off to college this fall, that is not something I want to hear! :)

What college did you go to btw? One of my friends is actually going to college in Canada. He's going to the University of Guelph in Ontario. Ever heard of it?

Jai Sri Krishna

yajvan
30 June 2010, 09:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté sanjaya,


I would be very careful about forming any religious belief around something like string theory... Best, I think, to understand Brahman through meditation and Scriptures, which aren't up for debate like science is.
Some wise words. I have been looking at string and super-string for some time. I have asked on multiple occasions for a practical example or definition for the dimensions that are suggested. On a good day I can perhaps conceive of maybe ( maybe a maybe that is) 5 to 6 dimensions, yet never can get to 11. I have asked for clarity on this matter (not suggesting HDF here) and get little direction on this matter . This theory is as I see is just not flushed-out yet and not sure if it will get to that stage. But it leads one to other ideas i.e. membranes and ideas of that flavor.

That said, brahman say the upaniṣads, only has one-forth of His Being in manifested creation, in all 'this'. It would be a difficult task at best to ask science to postulate on the other 75% as I see it.

praṇām

Ao
01 July 2010, 06:10 AM
Thanks all for your responses. I just want to clarify something--I am in no way basing religious beliefs on string-theory! I was merely asking if science can help us understand ultimate reality when it investigates things like those discussed in the linked BBC article.

@Yajvan--Thanks for reminding us in the above that Brahman is far more than the physical universe(s). Even more mind-blowing!:)

Ao
01 July 2010, 06:13 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté sanjaya,


Some wise words. I have been looking at string and super-string for some time. I have asked on multiple occasions for a practical example or definition for the dimensions that are suggested. On a good day I can perhaps can conceive of maybe ( maybe a maybe that is) 5 to 6 dimensions, yet never can get to 11. I have asked for clarity on this matter (not suggesting HDF here) and get little direction on this matter . This theory is as I see is just not flushed-out yet and not sure if it will get to that stage. But it leads one to other ideas i.e. membranes and ideas of that flavor.

That said, brahman say the upaniṣads, only has one-forth of His Being in manifested creation, in all 'this'. It would be a difficult task at best to ask science to postulate on the other 75% as I see it.

praṇām

Thanks all for your responses. I just want to clarify something--I am in no way basing religious beliefs on string-theory! I was merely asking if science can help us understand ultimate reality when it investigates things like those discussed in the linked BBC article.

@Yajvan--Thanks for reminding us in the above that Brahman is far more than the physical universe(s). Even more mind-blowing!:)

Ao
01 July 2010, 06:14 AM
Sorry for the weirdness of the formatting on those two posts. I don't know what's going on there...

Ao
01 July 2010, 06:56 AM
Hi Andrew. Just a word of caution. I would be very careful about forming any religious belief around something like string theory. In the physics department where I work, string theory is heavily frowned upon. And rightly so. There is thus far absolutely no evidence to back up its claims. It's still just empty mathematics. So what if it turns out to be wrong? Does that mean that all of the things we can learn about God from string theory are wrong?

Best, I think, to understand Brahman through meditation and Scriptures, which aren't up for debate like science is.

Apologies for my verbosity tonight; my wife is working late and I have the place to myself.

Sanjaya, I agree with your main point. However, on the larger issue of science vs. religion that this raises, I think it's absolutely healthy to take a dynamic view of religious beliefs. Hinduism's willingness to change and evolve is a feature that I find very attractive. Further, the fact that science does support Hindu teachings is a great boon, I think. If on the other hand, science showed definitively that a certain set of beliefs are rubbish, like it has with the more hard-core versions of Christianity, than I think that is cause for one to question one's beliefs.

atanu
02 July 2010, 12:10 PM
Thanks all for your interesting comments. Brahman is well beyond physics, of course, but I think science like this can help us open our minds. And it's encouraging to see science supporting beliefs like those found in the Upanishads.

@Atanu, would you mind explaining your comment (quoted above) in more depth? I assume you are talking about meditation, but what is the best way to meditate?

Namaste andrew

Thanks for finding the comments interesting. Hope that they may be of use also. Regarding meditation there are excellent books and good posts here as well. I find it hearty that you acknowledge that upanishads inspire some highest scientists.

Regarding my comment:"But Brahman is known through introversion/involution of mind", allow me to use a few metaphors. Suppose you have some food sticking on your chin that you have observed in mirror. Will it be possible to clean your chin by rubbing the mirror? Mind is SIMILAR. It is called chidAbhAsha -- reflected intelligence. It is like a heated iron ball. It appears that the iron ball has heat. But no. It is agni (fire) that has imparted heat to the iron ball. Similarly we attribute intelligence and will to gross brain/body, which are actually inert and made of earth, wind, fire, water, and ether (mind material). In a dead body, the intelligence is not reflected.

Real meditation is to look for the true intelligence, which is entirely and absolutely distinct from the gross body/brain.

One can feel the peace when one contemplates of the unlimited, body-less, world-less dark experience of deep sleep. The goal of meditation is to grasp that ungraspable unlimited, body-less, world-less, experience, while one is fully awake. The deep sleep is dark because there is no second taste, second sight, second touch, second smell -- it is one homogeneous awareness. There being no boundary nothing is perceivable. Yet there is one Seer of this homogeneous awareness. To know the Seer is to be the seer and the ultimate meditation is that, as per teaching of my Guru's school, when the Seer (meditator) and the Seen are not different.

The goal of Science is not such. God particles cannot be apart from the Seer. Knowing the God particles yet not knowing the Seer is still groping in the dark in the relativistic mode, since one does not know how the Seer influences (or bends) the vision/understanding of the so-called God particles.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
03 July 2010, 01:57 AM
Namaste Andrew

I perused through your writing in the link provided. I liked them. Since, you are a writer, it occured to me that another metaphor, noted below, should attain the target.

Suppose you write a book and appoint the book to investigate your true nature. How that will be? Mind is the golden vessel which holds the universe. This golden vessel arises in Atman-the Self, which according to Hindu view is the lone Seer and Knower. Hindu sages pray to divine powers for removal of the golden vessel for divine view of the face of the truth.

That again is not the aim or way of science.

I suppose I have rambled more than necessary.

Om Namah Shivaya

Ao
05 July 2010, 03:07 AM
Namaste Andrew

I perused through your writing in the link provided. I liked them. Since, you are a writer, it occured to me that another metaphor, noted below, should attain the target.

Suppose you write a book and appoint the book to investigate your true nature. How that will be? Mind is the golden vessel which holds the universe. This golden vessel arises in Atman-the Self, which according to Hindu view is the lone Seer and Knower. Hindu sages pray to divine powers for removal of the golden vessel for divine view of the face of the truth.

That again is not the aim or way of science.

I suppose I have rambled more than necessary.

Om Namah Shivaya

@Atanu--Thanks very much for your extremely helpful metaphors. I've thought about all these for a couple of days now and think I've understood them.

Where you said, "Hindu sages pray to divine powers for removal of the golden vessel for divine view of the face of the truth", did you mean that sages seek to remove the intermediary human mind and experience Brahman directly? i.e. Remove sense/thought perception and attain equal consciousness with the Self? Or at least as close to that as possible given our obvious mortal limitations?

atanu
05 July 2010, 04:39 AM
@Atanu--Thanks very much for your extremely helpful metaphors. I've thought about all these for a couple of days now and think I've understood them.

Where you said, "Hindu sages pray to divine powers for removal of the golden vessel for divine view of the face of the truth", did you mean that sages seek to remove the intermediary human mind and experience Brahman directly? i.e. Remove sense/thought perception and attain equal consciousness with the Self? Or at least as close to that as possible given our obvious mortal limitations?



Namaste Andrew

Yes more or less. Another metaphor, if you do not mind, the Atman is equated to a firebrand and the universe/mind to the circular shape that the fire brand appears to be when rotated. Without stopping the rotation, the exact form of firebrand will not be known.

As per scriptures of Hinduism (as interpreted by advaita school), it is possible to attain equal consciousness with the Self, since Self is really what one is.

Thank you for keen questions.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

rku
14 January 2012, 10:22 AM
Dear,

According to Vedata theory of everything is an impossible thing.

Because it will be theory of Maya. Since Maya never existed what theory will exist? For all practical purposes the permutations and combinations of available science would may fetch the maximum comfort materialistically.

brahman
20 February 2012, 06:08 AM
As string theory, the best chance for a Theory of Everything so far, makes its advances, what can we learn about ultimate reality from studies like the following?

"US experiment hints at 'multiple God particles'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10313875.stm

Further, if science can in fact identify the base unit of all matter, and even dark matter (probably a particle functioning as a wave), would that help us better understand brahman?





Dear Ao,

Atman is what shines forth equally as subject and object.

“The Tao that can be expressed is not the Tao”, reads the famous words of Lao Tzu.

“Whence words, along with mind, withdraw unable to grasp” thus Taittirya.

Vedanta and other spiritual disciplines commonly accept that the reality we perceive has already undergone a transformation by the very reason that it has been subjected to the knowing process.

This idea is fundamental to Modern Physics as well, where a similar problem can be noticed.

Quantum mechanics states that it is impossible to observe what exists without altering it by the act of observation.

The particular results of a particle collision experiment may be yielded as such because of the participation of the observer. There are no means to prove that results would yield the same in the absence of the observer…..

I guess it is the very state of silence that our ancient seers visualize within themselves is itself the meaning content of That ineffable reality.

----------------

However, I must confess that the key to true appraisal of the great modern Physics and its methodology still eludes me. Love:)