Hindus welcome Unitarian Universalist interest in Hinduism - Webnewswire.com

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Hindus welcome Unitarian Universalist interest in Hinduism (http://news.google.com/news/url?fd=R&sa=T&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webnewswire.com%2Fnode%2F547064&usg=AFQjCNGURvAa13dfm5ZL3bHIqdumTsWIng)
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Hindu statesman Rajan Zed, in a statement in Nevada (USA) today, said that everybody was welcome to indulge in rich philosophical thought Hinduism offered ...
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[Storm]

Ha, I'm not alone!

[Onkara]

Hi Storm
How do you imagine the influence of Sananta Dharma might be on UU? I ask knowing almost nothing of UU, so perhaps my question could be worded; how could UU cater best for Hinduism's uniqueness or could Hindus fit in or would UU services need to change for them?

[BryonMorrigan]

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm86/BryonMorrigan/character_uu-of-8.gif

We are the Unitarian Universalists. Lower your shields, and surrender your message board. We will add your religious and philosophical distinctiveness to our own. Your religion will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile.

[satay]

We are the Borg. You will be assimilated!
:D

[BryonMorrigan]

We are the Borg. You will be assimilated!
:D

Yep. You got it!

UUs seem like nice enough people....but I just can't help but think of the Borg whenever they start talking!

[NayaSurya]

Hey! My husband and I are Borg!

Whenever our children try to go back and forth between us to get a better answer we always play the Borg card on them!:P

Our children know that resistance is futile, for sure!

For some reason this whole conversation reminds me of how *some of the* pagan groups have borrowed from every single ancient path and then mixed it up into a confused mishmash of anti religion.:p

[Storm]

Hi Storm
How do you imagine the influence of Sananta Dharma might be on UU?
Well, I don't feel I know enough about Hinduism to say how it would influence us, yet.

Buddhism is a pretty heavy influence, though. Readings from the Dalai Lama and Thich Naht Hanh are very common, as are classes on the tradition. Many UUs also consider themselves Buddhist, and I think a Hindu could find a welcoming community in most UU congregations. (We're as much an interfaith alliance as an independent religion. I've known UU Chrisitans, neopagans, atheists, and even Muslims.)

More generally, we seek wisdom from all faith traditions. I'm a little more extreme in this than most, as religion is my great passion, but it's not uncommon. We tend to adopt holidays, philosophy, and meditation techniques. Also, I think we share with most Hindus the idea that all Gods are ultimately one.

From what little I know, I think greater knowledge of your tradition would greatly enrich ours. That's a tricky balance, though, doing it respectfully. In our celebration of diversity, we strive to honor all the various tradtitions. I think we usually succeed, but not always. As a former neopagan, I had an irksome moment at the (overall lovely) Winter Solstice celebration that I attended last December. They said "the circle is cast" when it wasn't. It was a little thing, but it bugged.


I ask knowing almost nothing of UU, If you're interested, I'd be delighted to answer any questions you have. :)

Sauce for the goose, and all that....


so perhaps my question could be worded; how could UU cater best for Hinduism's uniqueness That, we're pretty good at. The occasional faux pas aside, one of the few things UUs agree on wholeheartedly is that diversity rocks. We love and honor all paths, and revel in their differences. Should a Hindu wish to introduce their own path to a typical congregation's services and celebrations, they would be eagerly welcomed.


or could Hindus fit in or would UU services need to change for them?Well, that would depend on the Hindu, I think. So long as they honor other people's diversity in turn, they would be welcome. If they tried to force us into the Hindu mold, not so much.

That said, services vary wildly between congregations, and I'd be rather surprised if a Hindu couldn't find some pattern that suited their preferences.





We are the Unitarian Universalists. Lower your shields, and surrender your message board. We will add your religious and philosophical distinctiveness to our own. Your religion will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile.


LOL!

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Storm:

I have a couple of questions about your faith and beliefs.

Is it heaven/hell or is it reincarnation? Seems to me that would be one of the hardest to reconcile and pretty hard to find an in-between place although it seems like you are trying on another thread.

Are UU's vegetarian, or is there any doctrine on diet? I am presuming you have the freedom to choose.

What about the virtue of abstaining from premarital sex?

What is the goal of life according to UU? Is it like getting to heaven, or attaining moksha?

These are just a couple of questions I have before I go and explore the websites, if I choose to.

BTW, Rajan Zed does not speak for all Hindus, although he likes to think he does, so when you get a headline like the one today, it may be misleading. Of course, we have no central authority. Individual sampradaya leaders, yes. Many of them. Oh there's another question. Is UU organised with some sort of hierarchial structure?

Aum Namasivaya

[Storm]

Vannakkam Storm:

I have a couple of questions about your faith and beliefs.

Is it heaven/hell or is it reincarnation? Seems to me that would be one of the hardest to reconcile and pretty hard to find an in-between place although it seems like you are trying on another thread.

Are UU's vegetarian, or is there any doctrine on diet? I am presuming you have the freedom to choose.

What about the virtue of abstaining from premarital sex?
All of these questions are left up to the individual.

That may seem strange, but ours is a covenantal faith, not doctrinal. In other words, we agree to prinicples of behavior, not theology.

The covenant of Unitarian Universailsm is expressed in the 7 Principles:
We affirm and promote

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.The questions above would fall under the Fourth Principle, the free and responsible search for truth and meaning.


What is the goal of life according to UU? Is it like getting to heaven, or attaining moksha?
Neither. The goal of UU is to build the Beloved Community, in which all people live in accordance with the ideals of justice, compassion, and equality.


These are just a couple of questions I have before I go and explore the websites, if I choose to.
If you so choose, I would suggest starting here (http://www.uua.org/visitors/).


BTW, Rajan Zed does not speak for all Hindus, although he likes to think he does, so when you get a headline like the one today, it may be misleading. Of course, we have no central authority. Individual sampradaya leaders, yes. Many of them.
Duly noted.


Oh there's another question. Is UU organised with some sort of hierarchial structure?
Sort of, a loose one. We have the UUA, but I wouldn't call it an authority. We do have ministers, though that varies by congregation. Some are lay-led. But there's no one telling us what to believe.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Storm:

Thank you for your honest answers. I hope you are doing okay with number 4 then, and don't personally have contradicting beliefs. No one wants to live a life of confusion because they don't know what they believe. I've seen it happen. Mostly souls who thought they'd lost or remolded a belief, but then when something stressful comes along, they morphed back to the original, and it was kind of like "Oh, oh, where am I?"

One example is the marriage vow. A person gets to thinking they are invincible in their faith to one other person for life. Then this other person comes along to test that, and it's "Well, maybe adultery isn't such a grave misdeed after all."

I had a relative who was all for cremation, until he was about to die, and changed his mind and spoke it verbally to a couple of people, even though he had a living will for cremation. His confusion put the family through unnecessary debate and more grief, even though it wasn't intended at all.

Aum Namasivaya

[Storm]

Vannakkam Storm:
What does that mean?


Thank you for your honest answers.
Any time. If you have any more questions, I welcome them.

If you're interested, I can also give my personal thoughts on the ones you already asked.


I hope you are doing okay with number 4 then, and don't personally have contradicting beliefs. No one wants to live a life of confusion because they don't know what they believe. I've seen it happen. Mostly souls who thought they'd lost or remolded a belief, but then when something stressful comes along, they morphed back to the original, and it was kind of like "Oh, oh, where am I?"
I've seen it too, and it's sad. No worries, though.


One example is the marriage vow. A person gets to thinking they are invincible in their faith to one other person for life. Then this other person comes along to test that, and it's "Well, maybe adultery isn't such a grave misdeed after all."
Indeed.

I'm a hardliner on adultery. If you're not cut out for monogamy, don't promise to be monogamous.


I had a relative who was all for cremation, until he was about to die, and changed his mind and spoke it verbally to a couple of people, even though he had a living will for cremation. His confusion put the family through unnecessary debate and more grief, even though it wasn't intended at all.
That strikes me an odd thing to change your mind on. May I ask why he did?


Aum Namasivaya
:)

[Eastern Mind]

Hello Storm:

Vannakkam is the Tamil version of Namaste, I use it because that's the tradition I follow. Tamil Saivism.

My uncle lived his long life as an avowed communist/atheist. In the weeks before death, he regressed back to his very early Christian programming I presume. Maybe he got scared of th idea there was nothing. I don't really know. I wasn't in the middle of the matter. I know in the end they buried his ashes as a compromise. But in no way are honourable Hindus out to encourage confusion. That is why we discourage conversion unless the person has very clear intents and really knows what they want.

Many Christians upset with their faith take on a Guru as sort of a living Christ-figure, not understanding that that is not what a true Guru is at all. Then they run into discipline as suggested by Yamas or Niyamas or by the Guru, and then they hop over to another guru who requires less discipline of them. Nobody likes to be dealt the card of 'hard work' of serious sadhana. QWell, indeed, some people do, I guess, fortunately. They become our new pillars.

Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Storm.

Just as a side story, my daughter attended a few UU meetings in her city but found it too much when they had a turkey Thanksgiving feast, as this didn't fit with her staunch vegetarianism, and she got disgusted. Some would say she was intolerant, I suppose, but each one has moral lines to draw.

Aum Namasivaya

[Storm]

We have many vegetarians and vegans, but we try to cater to everyone. :)

[Darji]

Growing up pagan we had tonnes of friends that were UU. I have been to a few UU churches and I honestly couldn't make heads or tales of it. One Church I attended was so heavily influenced by Christianity our friend jokes my church is for pagans with a guilty christian conscience. As they wanted and felt pagan yet their roots forbad them from taking too many steps from christ. Yet others I've attended were neo-pagan/ new-age in every sense of the titles.

I have also seen quite a few home alters as well. It's like a who's who of faith at a party. You see statues of the Virgin Mary next to Tara, and then kicking it in the smoking section is Siva chatting with Christ on the cross with the green man listening in and usually in the middle you have buddha trying to ignore the rest of the party. The alway prevalent smell of nagchampa wafering in the air and enough crystals and semi precious stones to open a small jewelry store.

I'm not knocking it, just a fascinating and sometimes odd mix almost to a point of paradox and conflicting view points rolled in one. I personally am not a fan of what appears to be a pick and choose faith. I feel you can't take all the good from all the religions to suits you. You have to take the good with the bad, this is what gives us faith. I'm afraid that the more Hinduism is absorbed into this doctrine it will loose what makes it what it is. If you want to incorporate hinduism into your life, become hindu, don't sit on the fence and take only a small part and dispose of the rest.

[Storm]

Tell me, Darji, do you find bashing other people's religion effective, or is it just for fun?

If I started making fun of Hindus for worshiping cows and statues (which is about as accurate as what you've posted), and saying you should just convert to my religion, would you listen?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Storm:

I didn't see much bashing. There were lots of "I'm not knocking it," and "it's interesting". Since when is saying, "It's not for me' bashing. From that point of view, I'm bashing it, and you're bashing Hinduism. Darji is just basing his comments on what he has seen, and you say yourself that each congregation in UU is very different. I've never even been to a UU meeting, nor will I be. From the little conversations I've had with you and the fact that my personal search was over 35 years ago, I see no need in exploring another faith. Perhaps I'm being a basher too.

Aum namasivaya

[Darji]

Like EM says, there's no bashing in there. I was merely expressing what I have seen and experienced and in the end gave my view, which I maintain.

"saying you should just convert to my religion"

I didn't say that, it is my view that we should not take a full and complete religion/ philosophy be it Hinduism (which is the topic at hand), Buddhism, Taoism, abrahamic faith or any other religion, and only take from it that which suits us and toss the rest into the bin. If you find the religion/ philosophy worthy enough to take from, is it not worthy enough to give your fully undivided attention, study and practice?

[NayaSurya]

I have several wonderful friends who are UU that constantly tried to get me to come to their church saying it was not Christian. But the truth is going to a UU church is a mixed bag. Some are more liberal...some are not.

You just do not know what sort of church you will get until you get there. I looked at that website a long while ago when my friend suggested it and read the "scriptures section" Their curiculums for children are also used by the united church of Christ.

http://www.uua.org/religiouseducation/curricula/ourwhole/index.shtml

Now, while I am not saying someone who reads the bible is wrong...I will say that my vision of UU was changed by the websites embracing of christianity and the bible.

http://www.uua.org/publications/pamphlets/theologicalperspectives/151245.shtml

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with being Christian, but as a Hindu individual I found it absolutely not for me or my children.

UU accepts other paths, but it uses christian scriptures for it's foundation...among other abrahamic trads. It would be like the Jehova's witnesses opening up their doors and accepting everyone of every belief in...but in the sunday school classes they teach children from the watch tower booklets.

UU's that accept the bible as holy scripture are behaving as a Christian platform to bring in wayward individuals and shelter then under an umbrella of Christian beliefs....which would cause a conflict for anyone such as myself.

Our family does not accept the bible as truth anymore than it would the Quran. For my family, the truth and the light exist in SD.

It would be my hope that anyone who felt the same way would have an appropriate temple to visit instead of this sort of church. As with all things, going to the source is far better.

[Storm]

On the subject of bashing, what really offended me was this:

I have also seen quite a few home alters as well. It's like a who's who of faith at a party. You see statues of the Virgin Mary next to Tara, and then kicking it in the smoking section is Siva chatting with Christ on the cross with the green man listening in and usually in the middle you have buddha trying to ignore the rest of the party. The alway prevalent smell of nagchampa wafering in the air and enough crystals and semi precious stones to open a small jewelry store.
This description of other people's sacred space is positively dripping with derision. It may not suit your tastes, but can't you see that their altars are as sacred to them as yours are to you?

Then there's the rest:


I'm not knocking it, This struck me as nothing more than the typical Southerner's "I wouldn't say this if I didn't love you," followed by vicious insults.


just a fascinating and sometimes odd mix almost to a point of paradox and conflicting view points rolled in one. This is fair, and accurate.


I personally am not a fan of what appears to be a pick and choose faith. This is not. The covenant of the Prinicples is non-negotiable, and the foundation of our faith. One of those principles is to seek wisdom in all traditions.


I feel you can't take all the good from all the religions to suits you. You have to take the good with the bad, this is what gives us faith. I feel that isn't faith at all. It's blind dogmatism, and one of the biggest problems humanity must overcome.


I'm afraid that the more Hinduism is absorbed into this doctrine it will loose what makes it what it is. Jokes aside, I somehow doubt that UU is in any position to "assimilate" Hinduism. You're one of the world's biggest religions; we're a tiny minority largely confined to one nation.


If you want to incorporate hinduism into your life, become hindu, don't sit on the fence and take only a small part and dispose of the rest.1) I assumed this was directed at me specifically. If that assumption was incorrect, I apologize.

2) Why not? All religions are flawed, yet most contain great wisdom. Why wouldn't I seek wisdom wherever I find it? Why would I allow something I know to be flawed govern my life?

[Storm]

I have several wonderful friends who are UU that constantly tried to get me to come to their church saying it was not Christian. But the truth is going to a UU church is a mixed bag. Some are more liberal...some are not.
By "liberal," do you mean theologically, or politically?

It is a mixed bag. There are specifically Christian congregations, true. There are also neopagan and atheist congregations. I tell anyone and everyone interested in exploring UU to go to as many congregations as they can.


You just do not know what sort of church you will get until you get there. I looked at that website a long while ago when my friend suggested it and read the "scriptures section" Their curiculums for children are also used by the united church of Christ.

http://www.uua.org/religiouseducation/curricula/ourwhole/index.shtmlNow I'm a bit confused. While I have no direct experience with the OWL curriculum, I fail to see what comprehensive sex ed has to do with the Christianity, or any other religion.

Isn't it a good thing that the UCC offers such knowledge to their children, free of dogma?


Now, while I am not saying someone who reads the bible is wrong...I will say that my vision of UU was changed by the websites embracing of christianity and the bible.

http://www.uua.org/publications/pamphlets/theologicalperspectives/151245.shtml

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with being Christian, but as a Hindu individual I found it absolutely not for me or my children.Well, while individual UUs and congregations may be deeply Christian, UU as a whole is not. It is rooted in liberal Christianity, and therefore undeniably influenced by it. But as things are now, we view Christianity as one of many valid paths.


UU accepts other paths, but it uses christian scriptures for it's foundation...among other abrahamic trads. Not really. :) We have no scriptural foundation, Abrahamic or otherwise.


It would be like the Jehova's witnesses opening up their doors and accepting everyone of every belief in...but in the sunday school classes they teach children from the watch tower booklets.Our Religious Education program is by no means confined to the Bible. If that's all kids were getting in the congregation you attended, they were not following the typical curriculum. In fact, the single biggest complaint I've heard about RE is that we're so busy teaching other faiths that our own gets neglected.


UU's that accept the bible as holy scripture are behaving as a Christian platform to bring in wayward individuals and shelter then under an umbrella of Christian beliefs....which would cause a conflict for anyone such as myself.Well, if you have a genuine interest in UU (as opposed to merely humoring your friend), give some other congregations a try. Visitors are always welcome.


Our family does not accept the bible as truth anymore than it would the Quran. For my family, the truth and the light exist in SD.I wish you well on your path. :)


It would be my hope that anyone who felt the same way would have an appropriate temple to visit instead of this sort of church. As with all things, going to the source is far better.Yeah, UU isn't for everyone. What religion is?

But I will urge you not to judge the religion as a whole because one congregation was too Christian for you. That varies wildly.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Storm:

I am wondering why you want to learn of Hinduism at all? What is your faith missing that needs to be filled in by an exploration of Hinduism?

This is certainly a contrary view to SD. In SD, we have everything we would ever need and more. I think if your purpose here is actually to learn more about Hinduism, then it might be better to just get a basic primer book. Ours is a faith of faith, not intellectual study.

As far as the 'bashing' goes, I 'll just say this: Too bad you weren't here earlier before some of the more adamant Hindus didn't engage you in discussion. Then you'd know what real bashing is.

However, I am beginning ti think your purpose here is to promote UU, as you keep inviting people to go read about it, similar to the ladies NayaSurya referred to in her experience. Proselytysing, subtle or otherwise, is not Hindu either. We stand quite against it.

UU reminds me of the Hindu universalists who put token pictures of Christ on altars etc, go on about saying they think all paths are the same, then chant Hindu bhajans all day and actually fool no one. They're Hindu. Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON, and the Satya Sai organisation have all claimed at one time or another to be non-Hindu.

Aum Namasivaya

[Storm]

Vannakkam Storm:

I am wondering why you want to learn of Hinduism at all? What is your faith missing that needs to be filled in by an exploration of Hinduism?
Religion is my great passion. I want to learn about all of them. Hinduism is expecially intriguing because, from what little I know, it's quite close to my own beliefs.

It's not that anything is missing, it's that I have an unquenchable thirst to learn more.


This is certainly a contrary view to SD. In SD, we have everything we would ever need and more. I think if your purpose here is actually to learn more about Hinduism, then it might be better to just get a basic primer book. Ours is a faith of faith, not intellectual study.
I've done that too, but it's always preferable to engage actual believers.

That said, if non-Hindus are unwelcome, I'll go without rancor.


As far as the 'bashing' goes, I 'll just say this: Too bad you weren't here earlier before some of the more adamant Hindus didn't engage you in discussion. Then you'd know what real bashing is.
Oh, I've seen much worse. Doesn't make what was said any better.


However, I am beginning ti think your purpose here is to promote UU, as you keep inviting people to go read about it, similar to the ladies NayaSurya referred to in her experience. Proselytysing, subtle or otherwise, is not Hindu either. We stand quite against it.
As do I. UU isn't for everyone (which I pointed out), but "all knowledge is worth having." I was careful to preface my encouragements with "if you're interested." I take as much delight in teaching my own beliefs as learning about others, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

But I am a guest here, and I loathe proselytization. Honest question: do you think I crossed a line?


UU reminds me of the Hindu universalists who put token pictures of Christ on altars etc, go on about saying they think all paths are the same, then chant Hindu bhajans all day and actually fool no one. They're Hindu. Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON, and the Satya Sai organisation have all claimed at one time or another to be non-Hindu.
UU sees nothing objectionable about favoring one path over another in one's journey.

[Eastern Mind]

Hinduism is expecially intriguing because, from what little I know, it's quite close to my own beliefs.

Honest question: do you think I crossed a line?

UU sees nothing objectionable about favoring one path over another in one's journey.

Vannakkam again: From the little bit that I have actually gleaned of your beliefs, I find them nowhere near to Hinduism, at least my version. My belief system is a long ways away from UU. For starters, I don't believe Christ existed, and I have no need to explore anything. In my honest opinion, knowledge of the kind you are referring to makes for some sort of gridded confused intellect. As my Guru's guru once opined in a bookstore observing a browser "It's not in books, you Fool!"

As far as proseltysing goes, I don't think you crossed any lines, but its a fine line.

Aum Namasivaya

[Storm]

Vannakkam again: From the little bit that I have actually gleaned of your beliefs, I find them nowhere near to Hinduism, at least my version. My belief system is a long ways away from UU. For starters, I don't believe Christ existed, and I have no need to explore anything. In my honest opinion, knowledge of the kind you are referring to makes for some sort of gridded confused intellect. As my Guru's guru once opined in a bookstore observing a browser "It's not in books, you Fool!"
That's precisely why I prefer talking to actual believers.

It can be confusing, but I'm used to that, lol.


As far as proseltysing goes, I don't think you crossed any lines, but its a fine line.
I'll try to be more wary of it in the future.

I do loathe it, but I can also forget that not everybody delights in sharing the way I do, so I very much appreciate the warning. :)

[NayaSurya]

It's not that some of us don't thirst for knowledge.

I had read the bible through three times by 13 years old....followed by several less than savory things written by Gavin and Yvonne Frost...just to name some of the more tame...books which were banned by our own library. I was a teenager...unsure of where to seek His Name....only raised with two opposing sides from my parents I didn't realize the truth was outside of this dogma...at least yet. But, I had been exposed to SD early on in my childhood and it came full circle one beautiful day.

Some of us had a thirst to know...know and know and know.

But after about 38 years of searching, reading thinking and experiencing...some actually found the place we were looking for.

The place I found may not be for everyone...but it's absolutely Sanatana Dharma, the philosophy I have been embracing my whole life without knowing the name.

When I found Saivism and saw Siva the first time, I literally fell to my feet...everything began moving inside of me again. I was no longer afraid to admit the Truth in my heart.

Now, there is no way..no way I could ever go to a place which has jesus up to worship even if it is done so in a more subtle manner.

Christianity did so much damage to my heritage and family...I would rather die than allow my children to become exposed to the lies of the bible. As my neice was...now she has completely been converted as a JW...it's tragic.

You will meet people here on this forum that have been through a great journey and now are residing within that magnificient Truth which is Sanatana Dharma.

Nice to meet you<3

[Storm]

It's not that some of us don't thirst for knowledge.

I had read the bible through three times by 13 years old....followed by several less than savory things written by Gavin and Yvonne Frost...just to name some of the more tame...books which were banned by our own library. I was a teenager...unsure of where to seek His Name....only raised with two opposing sides from my parents I didn't realize the truth was outside of this dogma...at least yet. But, I had been exposed to SD early on in my childhood and it came full circle one beautiful day.

Some of us had a thirst to know...know and know and know.

But after about 38 years of searching, reading thinking and experiencing...some actually found the place we were looking for.

The place I found may not be for everyone...but it's absolutely Sanatana Dharma, the philosophy I have been embracing my whole life without knowing the name.

When I found Saivism and saw Siva the first time, I literally fell to my feet...everything began moving inside of me again. I was no longer afraid to admit the Truth in my heart.

Now, there is no way..no way I could ever go to a place which has jesus up to worship even if it is done so in a more subtle manner.

Christianity did so much damage to my heritage and family...I would rather die than allow my children to become exposed to the lies of the bible. As my neice was...now she has completely been converted as a JW...it's tragic.

You will meet people here on this forum that have been through a great journey and now are residing within that magnificient Truth which is Sanatana Dharma.

Nice to meet you<3
I'm glad that you have found your path, and greatly hope that I gave no offense. I told Eastern Mind, and I'll tell you, it was NOT my intention to proselytize, and if it came across that way I beg your forgiveness.

I'm sorry your experience of Christianity has been so negative. I have my own war stories, and I despised it myself for quite some time. But I've also seen great beauty in it, and met Christians who redeemed it in my eyes.

[NayaSurya]

I do agree, two such beings walked into my life at a very young age and helped me. Without their guidance I would not be here right now.

One was my personal handler/elder in the mormon church...he was a pristine example of what a man should be...honorable, just..kind...and a man who never harmed me the way the men in my own family had...

He set a high standard which helped me understand that the abuse I suffered was not the way real men behaved. He was Beloved to me.

The other, was a black southern baptist preacher who lived across the road with his large family.

I believe some souls do come back as christians or other religions to aid us..especially if we are surrounded completely by them. They would have no choice. These beings are precious and rare in my lifetime.

[NayaSurya]

To be clear, just because I believe the bible is man made and part of an enormous global cult doesn't mean that I hate christians or even christianity.

To me, all are Siva, upon a very long journey to find their way home. Some are further along on this journey...some just begining as myself.

I just like to keep separated from the others still working along to find even the road...as I worry it could confuse my children. We are in a great pressure cooker here living amongst the very devout christian majority...and it's already hard enough swimming against the culture without adding more force to the current pushing against us.

[Darji]

all are Siva

And Shiva is Vishnu so everyone's happy :P

* disclaimer, the above was a sectarian fun jab, a joke, light hearted banter between friends.

[NayaSurya]

Like peas and carrots.:p

[Darji]

Just need some butter :)

[atanu]

Vannakkam Storm:
-
UU reminds me of the Hindu universalists who put token pictures of Christ on altars etc, go on about saying they think all paths are the same, then chant Hindu bhajans all day and actually fool no one. They're Hindu. Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON, and the Satya Sai organisation have all claimed at one time or another to be non-Hindu.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste

Can I see the reference in respect of Ramakrishna Mission kindly?

Om Namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste

Can I see the reference in respect of Ramakrishna Mission kindly?

Om Namah Shivaya

Vannakkam Atanu: Here is a link to an article on the subject.

http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Why-did-the-Ramakrishna-Mission-say-they-are-not-Hindus-1.aspx

Apparently they have changed their stance now, which I wasn't aware of. But I was just holding a bit about it in my memory, which is always somewhat vague. The article refreshed my memory a bit, and it seems the reason was to get minority status within India, which has little to do with declaring universalism. I'm sorry now I lumped several groups all together as it's such a different reason. But any group declaring themselves non-Hindu have their own specific reasons for it. It would vary a lot, I would think.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

Vannakkam Atanu: Here is a link to an article on the subject.

http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Why-did-the-Ramakrishna-Mission-say-they-are-not-Hindus-1.aspx

Apparently they have changed their stance now, which I wasn't aware of. ----
Aum Namasivaya

There was never such a stance. A stance to protect the autonomy of an Institute, similar to the autonomy given to Christian run Institutes in India cannot be construed as a demand for being called non-hindu. What Ramakrishna Mission sought was equal autonomous status as Christian or Muslim run Institutes.

Your statement: "Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON, and the Satya Sai organisation have all claimed at one time or another to be non-Hindu ---", is totally foreign to me. And your further statement "---they have changed their stance now --" is an injustice to Ramakrishna Mission, who in recent times have done utmost for Hinduism. Same with Satya Sai trust.

And is it not irony that Hindus are reminded again and again that Ramakrishna Mission sought non-hindu status (a misleading statement) by christians who enjoy such special autonomy status for their institutes in India?

Om Namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Atanu:

Never did I say that they didn't do a lot for Hinduism, and for people. I absolutely agree that they are Hindu. I'm just saying that there once was a declaration (if you're disagreeing with the title of the article I sent you, then that's fine.. maybe there was some shoddy journalism going on) that said otherwise. I have enjoyed the company of the late Swami Bhyashanandaji, head of the Ramakrishna Mission in Chicago, and have been a long time admirer of the social works of both RK Mission and Satya Sai trust. I know many Sai devotees who work tirelessly here in my city and attend our temple. But not all of them will declare themselves to be Hindu, especially the westerners, even though it is obvious to me they are practising Hinduism. So your argument isn't with me, it's with the groups or individuals within the groups.

I see yoga as Hindu as well. But clearly others don't, including some practitioners and teachers who are doing lots of good work out there.

Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Atanu:

Here is a link to the Canadian Satya Sai site. http://www.sathyasai.ca/ If you read it, there is little mention of the term 'Hindu'. Here is a quote from that website.

" The Spiritual wing helps people to undertake spiritual activities like meditation and devotional singing. Meetings are usually held once a week in a public place. The Centers celebrate important festivals of the major religions of the world. SSSB Organization is a spiritual organization and hence does not profess one particular religion. People from all walks of life and all religions participate in these activities. The wing also organizes multi-faith forums to get a better understanding of all the religions and respect them. "

The bold is mine.

However, if you ask me, I would say something like, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... then" But I'm not here to argue.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

Vannakkam Atanu:

Never did I say that they didn't do a lot for Hinduism, and for people. I absolutely agree that they are Hindu. I'm just saying that there once was a declaration (if you're disagreeing with the title of the article I sent you, then that's fine..

Aum Namasivaya

I have already repeated that Ramakrishna Mission sought equal autonomy as enjoyed by christian or muslim run institutes .

The above fact and your assertion that Ramakrishna Mission declared itself non-hindu (and also changed its stance) are opposite. The latter claim is a claim of christians who accusingly point finger at Satya Sai and Ramakrishna Mission trusts.

I thought it fit to intervene since it is now common to read in HDF that Vivekanada was an idiot, Ramakrishana was rude, universalist fool and not a sage, Ramakrishna Mission is non-hindu, Satya Sai is -----, Shri Ramana was a Neo etc. etc..


Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Vannakkam Atanu:

Here is a link to the Canadian Satya Sai site. http://www.sathyasai.ca/ If you read it, there is little mention of the term 'Hindu'. Here is a quote from that website.

" The Spiritual wing helps people to undertake spiritual activities like meditation and devotional singing. Meetings are usually held once a week in a public place. The Centers celebrate important festivals of the major religions of the world. SSSB Organization is a spiritual organization and hence does not profess one particular religion. People from all walks of life and all religions participate in these activities. The wing also organizes multi-faith forums to get a better understanding of all the religions and respect them. "

The bold is mine.

However, if you ask me, I would say something like, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... then" But I'm not here to argue.

Aum Namasivaya

Actually one sees what one wants to see. You should read the full of both the links you provided.

I repeat:

Ramakrishna Mission sought autonomy for its institutes as enjoyed by christian institutes in India.

Satya Sai page states:

"The main objective of the Sathya Sai Organization ... is to help you recognize the divinity inherent in you. So, your duty is to emphasize the One, to experience the One in all you do or speak. Do not give importance to differences of religion, sect, status, or color. Have the feeling of one-ness permeate all your acts. Only those who do so have a place in this Organization; the rest can withdraw. Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba "


In none of these, can I see any claim to be non-Hindu. Moreover, I had hoped against hope that you would cite official Ramakrishna Mission and Satya Sai pages that have claimed to be non- Hindus -- as you asserted with nonchallance. I think the duck quacks are easily immitable.
----------------------------------

Dear EM

I will try to explain more patiently.

In India, minorities -- christians and muslims have special rights. Minority rights provide great autonomy to Christian and Muslim run institutes, which are largely out of purview of government's codes. Ramakrishna Mission sought such autonomy for its institutes. Now, law being an ass, such autonomy can only be granted to minority institutes. So, in the eyes of some, Ramakrishna Mission becomes minority and further non-hindu. It is ridiculous and ill-motivated.

Similarly, the core teaching of no "differences of religion, sect, status, or color ---" as taught by Satya Sai is very much an integral part of Sanatana Dharma. You surely know of the following:

Fear or death, I have none,
Nor any distincton of caste.
Neither father nor mother,
Not even a birth, have I.
Neither friend, nor comrade.
Neither disciple, nor Guru.
I am eternal bliss and awareness -
I am Shiva! I am Shiva!
--------------------------------

So, neither Ramakrishna Mission nor Satya Sai are non-Hindu organisations nor they have claimed to be such ever.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Atanu:

Oh, I definitely think that both are Hindu. That seems rather obvious. By the way, do you know the outcome of the Supreme Court's decision regarding the RK Mission? Did their 'protest' do any good? Back when I read about it, I can't remember the details and if there was a follow-up.

The discrimination against the Hindu majority via special minority rights has been going on for a long time, and I don't see any easy solutions. i especially disagree with the government taking temple funds but not church or mosque funds.

Regarding Satya Sai organisation, I sent them the following email at their official website.

I have been debating with a friend. Here is my question. Is the Sai organisation Hindu or non-Hindu? What is the official stance, and do I have permission to quote your response?

Aum Namasivaya

I don't know whether I will get a response or not. I do have a very good Sai devotee friend here and I did ask him, "So do you consider yourself a Hindu now?" (He has been coming to temple to do seva for at least ten years, and he and I have a mutual admiration society over our both doing the seva we do) His answer was, "No. I actually consider myself more of a spiritualist." We left it at that, as I wouldn't want to spoil a friendship over something so trivial. (nor do I want to spoil yours and my politeness and cordiality here)

My bottom line is I don't care what you call yourself as long as you are doing service to a society, and not being a burden or a hassle with others.

Aum Namasivaya

[devotee]

Namaste EM,

In my humble opinion, if you accept Hindu doctrines written in scriptures or told by our saints then you are a Hindu irrespective your legal position on papers.

Ramkrishna Mission is 100 % Hindu organisation. You may go to their satsanga or mutts and see for yourself. Sai Baba organisation is also 100 % Hindu. In fact, though you may not agree with me but SRF (Self Realisation Fellowship) of Maharishi Yogananda too is 100 % Hindu in spirit. The organisations which have spread in different parts of the world have flexible approach towards non-essential things for spirituality .... that is all.

Ramkrishna Mission did ask for a status as a non-Hindu organisation but that was to get the benefits in the legal framework in India as a minority institution. You may be aware that minority organisations enjoy some special benefits which are not available to a Hindu organisation in India.

OM

[atanu]

Vannakkam Atanu:

Oh, I definitely think that both are Hindu.

No issues. I do not believe the following to be true:


Ramakrishna Mission, ISKCON, and the Satya Sai organisation have all claimed at one time or another to be non-Hindu.

I stop here.

Om Namah Shivaya

[satay]

Namaskar,


I thought it fit to intervene since it is now common to read in HDF that Vivekanada was an idiot, Ramakrishana was rude, universalist fool and not a sage, Ramakrishna Mission is non-hindu, Satya Sai is -----, Shri Ramana was a Neo etc. etc..


Om Namah Shivaya

I don't think it is fair to point that out without pointing the other side of the picture thus my intervention...

In most cases, such posts that you are taking about have been edited and most of the time people have apologizied for their posts. However, in all cases, I see the devotees of such organizations and gurus and saints complaining and demanding immediate action after making personal attacks on other members. Yet the same members won't feel a thing when criticising other organizations like ISKCON. So seems to be a double standard to me but I digress.

A reminder that HDF is a generic Hindu site and not a vivekananda site or a ramakrishna site or a Shri Ramana site etc. etc. Though as hindus we should strive to respect all saints of hinduism, we cannot attack other HDF members personally if they don't. Because if we do it looks like double standard and hypocractic.

Thanks Atanu.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste EM,

In my humble opinion, if you accept Hindu doctrines written in scriptures or told by our saints then you are a Hindu irrespective your legal position on papers.

Ramkrishna Mission is 100 &#37; Hindu organisation. You may go to their satsanga or mutts and see for yourself. Sai Baba organisation is also 100 % Hindu. In fact, though you may not agree with me but SRF (Self Realisation Fellowship) of Maharishi Yogananda too is 100 % Hindu in spirit. The organisations which have spread in different parts of the world have flexible approach towards non-essential things for spirituality .... that is all.

Ramkrishna Mission did ask for a status as a non-Hindu organisation but that was to get the benefits in the legal framework in India as a minority institution. You may be aware that minority organisations enjoy some special benefits which are not available to a Hindu organisation in India.

OM

Vannakkam Devotee: I totally agree that they are Hindu. I never ever said that I did not think they were Hindu. Satya Sai was given the "Hindu of the Year' award awarded annually by Hinduism Today, and he didn't give it back.

What I am talking about is how any organisation presents itself. This is only being fair to them. If a son comes home and declares, "Dad, I don't want to go to college," and then the Dad says , "Oh, yes, you do," I believe the father is in the wrong.

Or a person comes up and says, "I'm from Gujurat," and you say, "No, you're not , you're from Maharashtra," then you're just being kind of silly.

So if any organisation says, "We're universalist", I think we should respect that. When you say, "I'm a Vaisnavite," I respect that. When I say, "I'm a Saivite," you respect that. That's all I am saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I understand totally why RK Mission went through what they did.

Basically, any organisation that claims some sort of universalist doctrine (RK mission is excluded from this because they don't. Their reason was altogether different.) is probably Hindu, because Hinduism is the only religion on the planet that allows for such diversity, and I respect that immensely.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

Namaskar,
I don't think it is fair to point that out without pointing the other side of the picture thus my intervention...

Thanks Atanu.

I agree.

I appreciate your impartiality and wisdom and apologise for transgressions. Offending words, however, even when erased, reach their targets, like bullets that have left the barrel.

Om Namah Shivaya