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upsydownyupsy mv ss
28 June 2010, 10:42 AM
I didn't know where to post this one, shaiva or advaitha or buddhism.
The usage of Maya and Illusion is very common in kashmiri saivism, advaitham and buddhism. The usage confuses in many contexts, but not in all contexts. It confuses me due to differences in opinions. I would like your opinions.
In buddhism, I've heard 'illusion' is used in the context in saying everything is an illusion or 'nothingness' and in giving an opinion that this world is a lie. I'd like to ask Buddhists, if any present here, 'Is this true?'
I don't think the same usage goes for advaitha and saivism and I feel it is different. I think 'Maya' there refers to a road having mirage of water on summer days. See this thread link below and you'll know the context I'm referring to...

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5643&highlight=open

I also like to say, I've by mistake written create instead of manifest in that thread. I've tried editing that thread, but can't.
I think this is the viewpoint of advaitha and kashmiri saivism too. I've referred a book on Kashmiri Saivism and I've felt that I was right. I think everything or everybody exists, but not as we perceive it and I don't think that it exists in the domain of nothingness. Consciousness is not nothing! How can anyone say that? It is comparible to a road on hot summer days appearing wet, but not wet, which is a mirage. You may say the water(ignorance) on the road does not exist, but you can never ever say that the road(consciousness) doesn't exist. I refer to illusion and maya in this sense, and not in the sense of nothingness or 'does not exist' sense as I've heard it to be the point of Buddhism. I've heard it so, I don't know for sure and want you guys to tell me whether it is true.
Oh and Devotee, I've seen you use illusion like this-> The space between every atom or subatomic particles is 99.999999% free space and therefore the object such as a cup does not exist as it is nothing but free space. I've read this in one of Yajvanji's post, in science and religion forums. Your usage is somewhat doesn't convince the reader, especially me. What about the 0.000001%? I don't know in which context you were telling me. All the threads so far written by you has impressed me, but that one hadn't. Can you explain the context of your reference?

Can you guys please tell me where else the words 'maya' and 'illusion' are used and in which other senses and contexts?

Finally, I'd like to say

This world is not as we perceive it or we can call this world an illusion in the sense that it is not as we perceive it. If anyone says this world is an illusion in the sense that nothing exists, then I can't agree. It denies the existence of me and all.

Tell me your opinions..... Don't leave this thread stranded like 'open you third eye thread' Only Smaranam, NayaSurya and Eastern mind replied there. It is still :sleeping:.

NayaSurya
28 June 2010, 11:25 AM
The world is not a mirage to me. It's gross physical reality...but it distracts from the true reality beyond it.

It's like a very adept magician doing stage tricks, but in reality he's really magic. He uses the stage tricks to keep us entertained...but what our eyes can not see is the greater performance.

I was in samadhi yesterday and the large seated upon the thrones and then the two beside me...and one is larger and one is more human size. When they spoke they said "Our" in unison.

Before me sits these beings with all different shapes...personalities...but in the end they refer to themselves in the sigular.

The maya was my inability...before this moment...to realize that They were One. No need to worry over what words to say to whom...but still I do...because I'm not there yet.

The illusion is to see the magic show....and to not understand the greater drama that goes on behind the curtain.

Siva truly must love to experience our individual leela...our sighs of passion, songs of happiness and our joyful hearts.

We can get caught up in this wonderful show being played out around us....it sucks you blissfully in to where you never want to leave.

But once out of the range of it's affect, you begin to see the true reality.

I hover....just there on the edge...never fully allowing myself to enter...but affected by the bliss of ignorance all the same.

It's in this position that a soul can not move forward. But for the sake of my children...who deserve to see the show, at least for a moment more....I do not move on.

For those who do not have such obligation, and who desire no such joy as the one which I am blessed with every single heartbeat...there is a greater place...one of purpose.

devotee
28 June 2010, 12:03 PM
Namaste SS,


Oh and Devotee, I've seen you use illusion like this-> The space between every atom or subatomic particles is 99.999999% free space and therefore the object such as a cup does not exist as it is nothing but free space. I've read this in one of Yajvanji's post, in science and religion forums. Your usage is somewhat doesn't convince the reader, especially me. What about the 0.000001%? I don't know in which context you were telling me. All the threads so far written by you has impressed me, but that one hadn't. Can you explain the context of your reference?

I hope you are referring to this :

"Now, are the space & matter/energy different ? Let’s see :

I see a solid wall of Iron in front of me. There is no hole, no space in the wall … apparently nothing can pass through it. I can touch it, feel it … it is solid & totally different from space which cannot be touched or felt by our sense organs. However, science tells us that the iron wall in front of me is made up of innumerable very tiny Iron molecules which are joined together by inter-molecular forces between them but the distances between the molecules is many times the size of each molecule. So, there is a lot of space in the Iron Wall due to these distances between the molecules but we don’t see those distance & resulting space within … it all appears as matter. Now, we further know that the molecules are made of iron atoms which are held together within inter-atomic forces between them & the space between any two atom is much larger than the size of the atom(s). Again that space is not visible to us & that space too looks as matter only. When we go inside the atom, we find that the atom is 99.999 % space only, except some sub-atomic particles inside. It has not been possible due to our scientific limitations to go beyond it, but we have known that 99.999 % of space in the wall in front of me, looks as solid matter & not space. Science agrees that space actually is not truly empty but filled with dark matter & dark energy, which we don’t see or feel but scientists have come up with some idea of its measure in this universe. So, that proves that space & matter & also energy are basically not different.

So, we can say that whatever we see as matter, whatever we feel as energy & whatever we perceive as space is actually One which alone manifests itself as three different things in this manifested universe. Now, can we say that, that One is matter ? Can we say that, that One is energy ? Can we say that, that One is Space ? No ! We must give it a different name …. to be able to put it in a different category …. but is there any category left ? It is matter & yet it is not matter, it is energy & yet it is not energy, it is space & yet it is not space."

In the above passage I was trying to show the illusion which appears as reality. To prove that what we are seeing is illusion and not the reality, it is not required to know what the .0001% part which doesn't apear space is. We don't know and perhaps we could never know as the instruments which you can apply to know that would be the cause of error after a certain limit. But that is not important here. We are not trying to prove what the .0001% is what we don't know. I am just saying what the 99.999 % part of the solid matter is according to Physics. Physics tells us that any object which looks 100% solid is actually 99.999% simply space. But the space looks as solid .... as matter .... which actually it is not. So, there is something which is not what it appears to be. Again, it can't be even space that we know. Why ? Because this space is different from the space we know (please note that all space around us doesn't look as solid). That is true for all solid, liquid and gaseous matter. We all know that they are essentially the same but they look entirely different.

Illusion is everywhere in this world. There is nothing where there is no illusion. The coal and diamond are same but unless the scientists told you ... would you believe that ? In fact, we know that everything is made up of same fundamental particles .... then why do they exhibit completely different characteristics ?

By definition, illusion is appearance of a thing different from what it is. That is the case here.


Finally, I'd like to say


This world is not as we perceive it or we can call this world an illusion in the sense that it is not as we perceive it. If anyone says this world is an illusion in the sense that nothing exists, then I can't agree. It denies the existence of me and all.

Yes, you are right. Who said that world ddin't exist ? It exists but we must agree that it is not what we perceive. It is "something" but we really don't know what it realy is as it is different from anything we know ... so no comparison is possible. So, we cannot say that it is like this or that ... we can only say that It is like Itself !

World is an illusion as world but World is real as Brahman. That is the difference and that we have to understand.

OM

upsydownyupsy mv ss
28 June 2010, 12:42 PM
Devotee, now you've made your point clear to me and I completely agree with you. :)

NayaSurya...... You obviously didn't catch what I said. I didn't say this world is a mirage. I said it is like a mirage, but not exactly one. I said it is comparable. I used that to say that everything is not as it appears. For example 'Sarvam Shivamayam' Everything is God, Ultimate Consciousness, whatever you call it, but we see it as many, we see pain, sufferings, hatred. We are under the illusion that it is 'I' and not 'We.' If you observe again, whatever I've said is not in contradiction to what you have said.
I hope I'm clear now. :)

That was just a similie. God is like mother, but not mother, even closer. He is like a teacher, even better, et cetera.

NayaSurya
28 June 2010, 12:56 PM
Yes we do agree. I did not state the above in disagreement or agreement, rather it was just to say this is how I see it as you asked for this.

With this subject, each of us will come from a different perspective and also from a different rung on the ladder. I do not feel any one perspective is right or wrong. It's where our internal compass is located at the moment.