Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

[Elizabeth108]

Hi,

I am deeply interested in Vaishnava philosophy, beliefs, thoughs so I myself search information about it online. But most often I bump into ones that are ISKCON-related. I respect their ways as others' as well. But I would like to get to know great Vaishnava (not ISKCON-related) sites ( homepages, sources, blogs etc.).

Could we collect some ones here, please?

[Braja Bhushan das]

Dear Elizabeth


let me start the list with two links to my gurudev who comes in a traditional Gaudiya Vaisnava line.

www.uttama-bhakti.org (http://www.uttama-bhakti.org) - an introductory site with a forum (English and Spanish)
www.sriharidasniwas.org (http://www.sriharidasniwas.org) - the official homepage

Hope this will inspire others to add more links.

[Kristina]

Dear Elizabeth,
this is the site of my Gurudeva Shrila Narayana Maharaja, he is in the line of Gaudia vaishnavism. I hope, you will find a lot of interesting things there:
www.purebhakti.com

[Kristina]

This is another link to the site of the senior desciple of my Gurudeva Shrila Narayana Maharaja - http://www.krsnakatha.com/
This site of Prem Prayojan Prabhu, there is a lot of Krishna-katha there.

[Vrindavan]

Haridas Shastri Maharaj Interview 31 Jan 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsYhTNQDvQE

Braja Bhushan das

wonder how do you meet your guru ?

also check out this link
http://ramsss.com/bhakti/spiritual-masters

[Braja Bhushan das]

Dear Vrindavanji

good job with your website, I liked it very much, and I am sure many devotees will profit from it.

Thanks also for posting the link to my Gurudev's video, Iwas quite surprised to see it published here.

As for your question, I am not sure I understand it... you would like to know how I met my guru or how one can meet my guru?

Well, I can answer both :) 1. I got to know about my guru through a person who has left his email address in one Vaishnava forum... my friend contacted him and got written darshans from him, which he then sent to me.

2. One can meet my Guru only by going directly to Vrindavan. More details and help can be gotten at the websites cited above.

[Krsna Das]

This is another link to the site of the senior desciple of my Gurudeva Shrila Narayana Maharaja - http://www.krsnakatha.com/
This site of Prem Prayojan Prabhu, there is a lot of Krishna-katha there.

Hare Krsna Kristina,

You are my God-sister. I am aslo a disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Jai Gurudeva !

[anadi]

Why only Iskcon?
Gaudiya Mat is also no traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism. They preach false ideas about raganuga bhakti, which lies with the founder of Gaudiya Mat, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, who never practiced it. He had not any type of initiation, and no connection to any of the gaudiya chains of guru, which leads to gaura lila, and accordingly to krişna lila.

1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence) I might as well claim that I received a dream-initiation from Sri Rupa Gosvami. Who can confirm or deny it? In this way the whole principle of initiation is undermined and made into a laughing stock. In Sri Isana Nagara's Advaita Prakasa (8.118-122) it is described how Sita-devi, the consort of Advaita Prabhu, received initiation in a dream from Srila Madhavendra Puri, but that Advaita Prabhu still found it necessary to give her a concrete, audible initiation.

sita kohe bahu bhagye toma painu dekha
dehatma sodhana koro diya mantra diksa
tabe puri sitare krsna mantra dila
jagi sita mata kohe kiba camatkare
svapnavese puriraja mantra dila more
acarye kohila sita sarva vivarana
tiho kohe bhagye tuya khandila bandhana
prabhu sei mantra puna vidhi anusare
subha ksane samarpila sva bharya sita re

"Sita devi told Madhavendra Puri: "I am very fortunate to meet you. Please sanctify my body and soul by giving me mantra initiation." Then Madhavendra Puri gave Sita krsna-mantra after which he vanished.
When mother Sita awoke, she said: "How amazing! Madhavendra Puriraja gave me mantra in a visionary dream!" Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: "You are so fortunate that now all your bondage is destroyed." According to the rules, and on an auspicious moment, Advaita Prabhu then gave His wife Sita that mantra again."

[anadi]

Why only Iskcon?
Gaudiya Mat and all its braches, not only Iskcon, are also no traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

The sannyasi guru of Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati should have been also Gaurakishor das Babaji, which wore white babaji vesha, not safran sannyasi robe as Bhatisiddhanta did.
Bhaktissidhanta never followed his so called guru, because he never took initiation from him.
The guru parampara von Gaurakishor das Babaji wore white babaji vesha.
Bhaktisidhanta changed not only the denomination and the color of the retired order for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, but also the name of Diksha Initiation, which he called "Brahmana Initiation", and strange enough he still claimed to belong to a tradition of uninterupted parampara not of gurus but of ... ? instructions -shiksha.

How could he take sannyasa in March 1918 while his so called guru passed away in November 1915? Gaudiya Matha chronicles admit that Bhaktisiddhanta took sannyasa in his room from a photo. But sannyasa cannot be taken from a photo, but from a living sannyasi.

A parampara that starts with white cloth and then suddenly switches to saffron cloth and 'brahmana-initiation' is also not an uninterrupted siksa-parampara.

All colors of garment but white are forbidden for a Gaudiya Vaisnava - rakta-vastra vaisnavera podite na yuyay (Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 13.61) "A Vaisnava should not wear red cloth."
nagno dviguna-vastrah syan nagno raktapatas tatha:
"Wearing red cloth is like walking naked," and
sukla-vasa bhaven nityam raktam caiva vivarjayet (both from Hari-bhakti-vilasa, 4.147,152):
"Always wear white and give up red cloth."

raktam nilam adhautam ca parakyam malinam patam paridhaya (Agama-sastra quoted in Durgama-sangamani by Sri Jiva Gosvami on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.2.120 ):
"Wearing red, blue or unwashed garments is a sevaparadha."

In Sri Dhyanacandra Gosvami's Paddhati the guru is described as wearing white cloth (svetambaram gaura-rucim sanatanam -"He wears white cloth and his eternal form shines like gold").
And saffron dhotis do not exist at all, only saffron bahirvasas (outer cloth) for Vedic eka-dandi (mayavadi) sannyasis and white dhotis for householders.
Grhasthas should not wear a kaupina (loincloth), and this is also not 'brahmana-underwear'. A kaupina is given during the ceremony of sannyasa for a lifelong vow of celibacy. It drags anyone down to hell who takes it off to have sex.
Shaving the head is also only for sannyasis and not for others.

To say one is wearing saffron, not red, is a useless escape manoeuvre, because there is also a positive injunction, namely suklavaso bhaven nityah, "one should always wear white and neither red nor saffron."

This is also not a question of 'the form ("what does it matter what color your cloth is?") versus the substance. It is not narrow-minded smarta-ism, because obedience and anugatya - following mood - is the substance. The Gosvamis have ordered us to wear white and bhakti means that you obey the orders of those who are both ordered and empowered by Mahaprabhu to lay down the law.
One Gaudiya Vaisnava acarya who may be an avadhuta may wear burlap, but he did not tell his thousands of disciples to do so. He told them all to wear white cotton.

The Srimad Bhagavata verse (3.5.38 ) does not mean that Gaudiya Vaisnavas can wear saffron or red cloth, there was no Gaudiya sampradaya yet in the time of the Bhagavata, and, Srila Sanatana Gosvami comments on this verse: yatibhir maha-prayatnena samsarasagaram sribhagavadbhakta helayaiva sukham taranti, "
the ocean of samsara, which is hard to cross by yatis (mayavadi sannyasis), is easily and blissfully crossed by the Lord's devotees."
The verse rakta vastra vaisnavera porite na yuyay is not taken out of context here. The story indeed is a personal question between Jagadananda Pandita and Sanatana Gosvami, but the moral of the story, expressed in the rakta vastra-verse, is an objective, absolute statement for all.

[jaswant]

Hare Krsna Kristina,

You are my God-sister. I am aslo a disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Jai Gurudeva !


HARE KRISHNA !!
YOUS ARE MY GOD BORTHER & SISTER !!! I AM ALSO A DECIPLE OF SRILA NARAYAN MAHARAJ

JAI GURUDEV !!
jaydev

[anadi]

Why only Iskcon?
Gaudiya Mat and all its braches, not only Iskcon, are also no traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism.


As a raganuga bhakti sadhaka Bhaktisiddhanta should have gotten something very important from Gaurakisora Das Babaji, if he were his disciple,namely the chain of gurus - guru-parampara - whichshould lead him in Caitanya lila to an associate of Sri Caitanya,
instead of saying that Gaurakisora Das Babaji was the disciple of Bhaktivinoda.
Rather, Bhaktivinoda worshipped Gaura Kisora and approached him for bhekha (initiation in the renounced order).
Gaurakisora took bhekha from Bhagavat das Baba, the bhekh-chela of Siddha Jagannatha das Baba.
Regarding Bhaktisiddhanta's version of his so called guru-parampara, here it is his version:

1.Sanatana Gosvami was actually the disciple of Vidyavacaspati.

2. Rupa Gosvami was a disciple of Sanatana Gosvami.

3. Jiva Gosvami was a disciple of Rupa Gosvami.

4. Raghunatha das Gosvami was a disciple of Yadunandana Acarya (not of Jiva Gosvami).

5. Narottama Das Thakura was a disciple of Lokanatha Gosvami, (neither of Raghunatha das Gosvami, nor of Krsna das Kaviraja as Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati pretends.

6. Visvanatha Cakravarti was a disciple of Radha Ramana Cakravarti and never met his would-be guru Narottama, for they lived a century apart.

7. Baladeva Vidyabhusana was a disciple of Radha Damodara Gosvami, not of Visvanatha Cakravarti.

8. Jagannatha das Babaji lived 150 years after his would-be guru Baladeva Vidyabhusana.

9. Bhaktivinoda was a disciple of Vipin Bihari Gosvami, not of Jagannath das Babaji.
10. Gaurakisora Das Babaji was not the disciple of Bhaktivinoda.

This invented parampara of Bhaktissidhanta is a forgery in the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, which was later proclaimed as "bhagavat" parampara - a chain of realized souls - bhagavats.
Any authentic chain is "bhagavat" parampara and this chain is given by the real guru in the siddha pranali ceremony.
This ceremony is unknown, and even insulted, in all the branches of Gaudiya math (especially by "Narayan Maharaja") including Iskcon.

[Gopal Dasa]

Another website that is about another Gaudiya Organization is: http://scsmath.com

I am trying to get into contact with them for initiation.

[atmarama108]

NONSENSE

That you for that load of blasphamy. Rascal No.1...

[anadi]

That you for that load of blasphamy. Rascal No.1...
This is a typical argument for new indoctrinated Christian followers, when one presents the forgeries in Christianity.

It is nice that is a growing awareness about the ISKcon deviation from Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and is still sad that there is but little awareness about the deviation of Gaudiya Mat and all its braches (not only Iskcon) from Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

This deviation, hat its roots, as previously stated, in the founder of Gaudiya Mat, Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati.

Let see some other forgeries linked to the founder of Gaudiya Mat, to understand why his followers deviate from the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism:

5) Why do all Gaudiya Matha-chronicles give different dates and places of Bhaktisiddhanta's supposed initiation, some saying that he received Nrsimha mantra, as if Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji was a worshipper of Nrsimha?

6) Where did Bhaktisiddhanta get his brahmana-thread from?
Gaura Kisora das Babaji did not wear it (as the photos show), for he was born a vaisya.

The proof that brahmana-initiation does not exist in reality is that there is a separate 10-syllable Gopala Mantra for brahmanas and an 18-syllable mantra for non-brahmanas.
This means that 2nd initiation is not a so called brahmana-initiation.
And if you do become a brahmana through such initiation, then why not receive the 10-syllable mantra for the brahmanas, instead of the 18-syllable mantra they now receive?

Who is a brahmana?
a) In ISKCON and other Gaudiya Matha branches, we see almost everyone ultimately receiving brahmana-initiation.
But which varnasrama-society (as they preach to reinstate) has only brahmanas?
Even from their viewpoint "we judge people on their qualities and not on their birth," most of Bhaktivedanta's followers are not qualified brahmanas. ISKCON/Gaudiya Math "brahmana"-women leave their husbands, have children from different men (this is lower than a sweeper's wife in India), and, what to speak of knowing Sanskrit, the men don't even know Hindi or Bengali, or even what the weather is like in India. No one knows even basic sadacara, the practices of cleanliness and chastity.
90% of western members are businessmen (" some kind of vaisyas" perhaps?).

Quality and birth are anyway non-different:

karanam gunasango 'sya sadasadyonijanmasu (Gita, 13.22).

"The cause of birth in either a good or a bad species is one's attachment to a certain psychological quality (culture, habit)."

If you are born as a brahmana, it means you have attachement for this way of life, and you also deserved to attain it.

In this connection the most of Bhaktisiddhanta's Western followers are not so called brahmanas by quality.

The brahmana campaign of Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati, to present himself as a brahmana, although he was not one of them, and later to produce brahmanas industrially, must have had as background a certain envy against the brahmanas, as well as the wish of social recognition.
Otherwise a Vaishanva should have no interest in social status. The attitude of Bhaktissidhanta was in this case a disrespect for the instruction of Sri Caitanya regarding the self identification of a Vaishnava with any social status of the Varana-ashram system:

naham vipro na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo na sudro
naham varni na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir va
kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher
gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

I am no learned Brahmana - naham vipro
I am no leader, warrior (kshatria) - na ca nara-patir
neither merchant (vaishya) - napi vaisyo neither labourer - na sudro

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has taught His followers trnad api sunicena "One must consider oneself lower than a blade of grass," not considering and tagging himself equal to a brahmana.

Envy is the cause of the mentality: "Nowadays brahmanas are full of faults, so now we will launch our own varnasrama-system."

A human being can and should not do that, for it is created by God Himself, and He is the highest authority (caturvarnyam maya srstam "The four castes are created by Me (God, Krsna),") and not by the human being like Bhaktissdhanta Saraswati, who wanted to make his own varNa-ashrama system.

'Religious principles are created by God Himself"
dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam, (Srimad Bhagavata, 6.3.19)
Envy of brahmanas will cost dearly, for Sri Krsna Himself says in the Bhagavatam (10.64.41-42):

vipram krtagasam api naiva druhyata mamakah
ghnantam bahusapantam va namaskuruta nityasah
yathaham praname vipran anukalam samahitah
tatha namata yuyam ca ye 'nyatha me sa danda-bhak

"O My relatives! Do not harm a brahmana, even if he mistreats you!
Even if he is a sinner, you should still bow down to him.
Even I bow down to the brahmanas. Whoever acts otherwise is punishable by Me!"

The Lord further tells Srideva in Srimad Bhagavata (10.86.53):

brahmano janmana sreyan sarvesam praninam iha
tapasa vidyaya tustya kim u mat kalaya yutah

"The brahmana is superior to all living beings by birth, let alone when he is austere, learned, content and devoted to Me."

dusprajña aviditvaivam avajananty asuyavah
gurum mam vipram atmanam arccadavijyadrstayah (S.Bhag. 10.86.55)

"Men of crooked understanding, who do not know this, disrespect a brahmana and are envious of him, who is identical with Me and their very self."

[Harjas Kaur]

There was an interesting article in the India Divine forums:

Madhava writes:

The fact is that, though the acaryas from Laksmipati upwards are mentioned, most of the Gaudiyas who are supposed to honor them as their worshipable succession of predecessors hardly know who the respected acaryas are. While the writings of the Gosvamis and their followers are given paramount importance in the Gaudiya tradition, practically no emphasis is laid on studying the writings of even Sri Madhva Acarya, what to speak of the rest in his line up to Laksmipati.

Most Gaudiyas are not concerned over the parampara beyond Nityananda, Advaita and Caitanya, and the theme hardly merits any discussion among them. Why diksa / Why the emphasis on post-Mahaprabhu time? (http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare-krishna-forum/243317-why-diksa-why-emphasis-post-mahaprabhu-time.html)

Well every Guru parampara and sect has a different emphasis, viewpoint, and evolves their own lineage and tradition. And obviously their would not be sectarian differences if everybody believed in the same things in the exact same way. I find it humorous that someone is writing complete heresy and rejection against Gaudiya Matha in a thread basically bashing Iskcon for fanaticism. Talk about fanatical!

It's simply unrealistic to expect another acharya or Guru parampara, even if descended from your own...to actually pay obeisances to yours.


Certainly the "Christian converts" do not make up the entire Matha or explain it's divergent tradition. As for scandals and falls from grace, Iskcon is certainly not alone. These problems have afflicted every religion and every sect. So please, don't patronize the readers here. This is Kali Yuga.
----------------------------------



Where did Bhaktisiddhanta get his brahmana-thread from? Gaura Kisora das Babaji did not wear it (as the photos show), for he was born a vaisya.

You are making a judgment about someone's CASTE? And expect to be taken seriously? Are you SERIOUS?

"Even simply saying out loud the caste of a sri vaishnava is a sin."
~Shrila Saccidananda Thakura Bhaktivinoda, Navadvipa-dhama-mahatmya, Chp 15. Last Instructions of Shri Ramanujacharya


And from my "non-Vaishnava" background which respected the Vaishnav sants of the Ramanujacharya:

ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जाणहु जोति न पूछहु जाती आगै जाति न हे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jāṇhu joṯ na pūcẖẖahu jāṯī āgai jāṯ na he. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 349
---------------------------------

ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥
अधम चंडाली भई ब्रहमणी सूदी ते स्रेसटाई रे ॥
Aḏẖam cẖandālī bẖa▫ī barahmaṇī sūḏī ṯe sarėstā▫ī re.
The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.
~SGGS Ji ang 381
---------------------------------

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਬੈਸ ਸੂਦ ਅਰੁ ਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤ੍ਰੀ ਡੋਮ ਚੰਡਾਰ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਨ ਸੋਇ ॥
ब्रहमन बैस सूद अरु ख्यत्री डोम चंडार मलेछ मन सोइ ॥
Barahman bais sūḏ ar kẖa▫yṯarī dom cẖandār malecẖẖ man so▫e.
Whether he is a Brahmin, a Vaisya, a Soodra, or a Kshatriya; whether he is a poet, an outcaste, or a filthy-minded person,

ਹੋਇ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਨ ਤੇ ਆਪੁ ਤਾਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਕੁਲ ਦੋਇ ॥੧॥
होइ पुनीत भगवंत भजन ते आपु तारि तारे कुल दोइ ॥१॥
Ho▫e punīṯ bẖagvanṯ bẖajan ṯe āp ṯār ṯāre kul ḏo▫e. ||1||
he becomes pure, by meditating on the Lord God. He saves himself, and the families of both his parents. ||1||

ਧੰਨਿ ਸੁ ਗਾਉ ਧੰਨਿ ਸੋ ਠਾਉ ਧੰਨਿ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ ॥
धंनि सु गाउ धंनि सो ठाउ धंनि पुनीत कुट्मब सभ लोइ ॥
Ḏẖan so gā▫o ḏẖan so ṯẖā▫o ḏẖan punīṯ kutamb sabẖ lo▫e.
Blessed is that village, and blessed is the place of his birth; blessed is his pure family, throughout all the worlds.

ਜਿਨਿ ਪੀਆ ਸਾਰ ਰਸੁ ਤਜੇ ਆਨ ਰਸ ਹੋਇ ਰਸ ਮਗਨ ਡਾਰੇ ਬਿਖੁ ਖੋਇ ॥੨॥
जिनि पीआ सार रसु तजे आन रस होइ रस मगन डारे बिखु खोइ ॥२॥
Jin pī▫ā sār ras ṯaje ān ras ho▫e ras magan dāre bikẖ kẖo▫e. ||2||
One who drinks in the sublime essence abandons other tastes; intoxicated with this divine essence, he discards sin and corruption. ||2||

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸੂਰ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਭਗਤ ਬਰਾਬਰਿ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
पंडित सूर छत्रपति राजा भगत बराबरि अउरु न कोइ ॥
Pandiṯ sūr cẖẖaṯarpaṯ rājā bẖagaṯ barābar a▫or na ko▫e.
Among the religious scholars, warriors and kings, there is no other equal to the Lord's devotee.

ਜੈਸੇ ਪੁਰੈਨ ਪਾਤ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਸਮੀਪ ਭਨਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜਨਮੇ ਜਗਿ ਓਇ ॥੩॥੨॥
जैसे पुरैन पात रहै जल समीप भनि रविदास जनमे जगि ओइ ॥३॥२॥
Jaise purain pāṯ rahai jal samīp bẖan Raviḏās janme jag o▫e. ||3||2||
As the leaves of the water lily float free in the water, says Ravi Daas, so is their life in the world. ||3||2||
~SGGS Ji ang 858
---------------------------------


I had to stop there because right away you proved yourself to be a non-spiritual person in your condemnation of a school of Vaishnavism noted to it's belief and desire is raising the whole world to status of authentic Bhaktas and brahmanas and not by birth but by actual holiness.

Thanks for your transparency. A Pure Vaishnav is nondifferent from Bhagavan, and if you are criticizing Pure Vaishnav saints in your condemnation of both Gaudiya Math and Iskcon, I feel sorry for you. That is not at all the attitude of a spiritual person.


ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
सो ब्राहमणु ब्रहमु जो बिंदे हरि सेती रंगि राता ॥
So barāhmaṇ barahm jo binḏe har seṯī rang rāṯā.
He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 68
--------------------------------

tomara nama suni' haya svapaca 'pavana'
alaukika sakti tomara na yaya kathana
"Simply by hearing Your holy name, dog-eaters become holy saints. Your uncommon potencies cannot be described in words."
~Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 18.124
---------------------------------

yan-namadheya-sravananukirtanad
yat-prahvanad yat-smaranad api kvacit
svado 'pi sadyah savanaya kalpate
kutah punas te bhagavan nu darsanat
To say nothing of the spiritual advancement of persons who see the Supreme Person face to face, even a person born in a family of dog-eaters becomes immediately eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices if he once utters the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or chants about Him, hears about His pastimes, offers Him obeisances or even remembers Him.
~Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 18.125


May Bhagavan bless the True and Holy Saints, Satguru's, Avataras and Pure Vaishnavs who bring such wonderful teachings of Light into a suffering and divided world. I offer my pranams and bow and touch the dust of their holy feet. This Gaudiya Matha is sooo great, your criticisms won't ever be able to touch it. Instead you are throwing kalank all over yourself.

[Harjas Kaur]

Some very wise words from an authentic Satguru.


दानु देइ करि पूजा करना ॥
Ḏān ḏe▫e kar pūjā karnā.
They give you donations and worship you.

ਲੈਤ ਦੇਤ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੂਕਰਿ ਪਰਨਾ ॥
लैत देत उन्ह मूकरि परना ॥
Laiṯ ḏeṯ unĥ mūkar parnā.
You take from them, and then deny that they have given anything to you.

ਜਿਤੁ ਦਰਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੈ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
जितु दरि तुम्ह है ब्राहमण जाणा ॥
Jiṯ ḏar ṯumĥ hai barāhmaṇ jāṇā.
That door, through which you must ultimately go, O Brahmin -

ਤਿਤੁ ਦਰਿ ਤੂੰਹੀ ਹੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਣਾ ॥੧॥
तितु दरि तूंही है पछुताणा ॥१॥
Ŧiṯ ḏar ṯūʼnhī hai pacẖẖuṯāṇā. ||1||
at that door, you will come to regret and repent. ||1||

ਐਸੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਡੂਬੇ ਭਾਈ ॥
ऐसे ब्राहमण डूबे भाई ॥
Aise barāhmaṇ dūbe bẖā▫ī.
Such Brahmins shall drown, O Siblings of Destiny;

ਨਿਰਾਪਰਾਧ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
निरापराध चितवहि बुरिआई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nirāprāḏẖ cẖiṯvahi buri▫ā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
they think of doing evil to the innocent. ||1||Pause||

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਹਲਕਾਏ ॥
अंतरि लोभु फिरहि हलकाए ॥
Anṯar lobẖ firėh halkā▫e.
Within them is greed, and they wander around like mad dogs.

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਉਠਾਏ ॥
निंदा करहि सिरि भारु उठाए ॥
Ninḏā karahi sir bẖār uṯẖā▫e.
They slander others and carry loads of sin upon their heads.

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੂਠਾ ਚੇਤੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
माइआ मूठा चेतै नाही ॥
Mā▫i▫ā mūṯẖā cẖeṯai nāhī.
Intoxicated by Maya, they do not think of the Lord.

ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲਾ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਰਾਹੀ ॥੨॥
भरमे भूला बहुती राही ॥२॥
Bẖarme bẖūlā bahuṯī rāhī. ||2||
Deluded by doubt, they wander off on many paths. ||2||

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੇਖ ਕਰਹਿ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥
बाहरि भेख करहि घनेरे ॥
Bāhar bẖekẖ karahi gẖanere.
Outwardly, they wear various religious robes,

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਉਤਰੀ ਘੇਰੇ ॥
अंतरि बिखिआ उतरी घेरे ॥
Anṯar bikẖi▫ā uṯrī gẖere.
but within, they are enveloped by poison.

ਅਵਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ॥
अवर उपदेसै आपि न बूझै ॥
Avar upḏesai āp na būjẖai.
They instruct others, but do not understand themselves.

ਐਸਾ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਸੀਝੈ ॥੩॥
ऐसा ब्राहमणु कही न सीझै ॥३॥
Aisā barāhmaṇ kahī na sījẖai. ||3||
Such Brahmins will never be emancipated. ||3||

ਮੂਰਖ ਬਾਮਣ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥
मूरख बामण प्रभू समालि ॥
Mūrakẖ bāmaṇ parabẖū samāl.
O foolish Brahmin, reflect upon God.

ਦੇਖਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਤੇਰੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
देखत सुनत तेरै है नालि ॥
Ḏekẖaṯ sunaṯ ṯerai hai nāl.
He watches and hears, and is always with you.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਹੋਵੀ ਭਾਗੁ ॥
कहु नानक जे होवी भागु ॥
Kaho Nānak je hovī bẖāg.
Says Nanak, if this is your destiny,

ਮਾਨੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥੪॥੮॥
मानु छोडि गुर चरणी लागु ॥४॥८॥
Mān cẖẖod gur cẖarṇī lāg. ||4||8||
renounce your pride, and grasp the Guru's Feet. ||4||8||
~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ang 372

[Rasa1976]

Hi,

I am deeply interested in Vaishnava philosophy, beliefs, thoughs so I myself search information about it online. But most often I bump into ones that are ISKCON-related. I respect their ways as others' as well. But I would like to get to know great Vaishnava (not ISKCON-related) sites ( homepages, sources, blogs etc.).

Could we collect some ones here, please?

If one really wants to delve into non-IGM (Iskcon/Gaudiya Math) Vaisnava thought, they need to move away from the easily accessible (ebooks published by vedabase.net and purebhakti.com, etc.) get serious, scrape some pennies together and buy some actual printed books.

Of course, a built-in disadvantage of this approach is that you will be unarmed when it comes to cutting and pasting slokas in a rapid-fire attempt to crush your (other Vaisnava) opponent, thus no longer being able to take advantage of the juicy op to commit one of the "ten offenses" in the chanting of the holy name.

In fact, you can even have the Srimad Bhagavata, Chaitanya-Charitamrita and never even have to listen to Srila Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or Srila Narayana Maharaja at all! And you don't have to become a Mayavadi either!

Here is the Srimad-Bhagavata translated by Swami Tapasyananda which I have found to be very enjoyable reading.. http://www.amazon.com/Srimad-Bhagavata-Holy-Book-God/dp/8178230461/ref=sr_1_42?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289212423&sr=1-42 (http://www.amazon.com/Srimad-Bhagavata-Holy-Book-God/dp/8178230461/ref=sr_1_42?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289212423&sr=1-42) Yeah, yeah, he's from the Ramakrishna Math, but check this verse out..

"Philosophers who accept a fundamental difference between Iswara and Jiva contend that, as the Atman is under the spell of Avidya (Ignorance) from eternity, he can never free himself from ignorance without the help of another centre of intelligence who is ever free from ignorance. That centre of intelligence is Iswara, and He is different from the Jiva". ~Lord Krishna to Uddhava, Skanda XI, Chapter 22, Verse 10

One can also look into OBL Kapoor's books.. http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDE915/ (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDE915/) Though originally a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, I believe he broke away from the Gaudiya Math, though I don't know the story connected to that. His book "The Saints of Vraja" is curiously devoid of the usual IGM line of acaryas.

[Sahasranama]

There was an interview on Hinduism Today from an acharya of Sri Vallabha sampradaya, he said that the philosophy of the Srimad Bhagavatam is more in line with the advaita of Kashmir Shaivism than that of the advaita of Shankaracharya (mayavada).

Any thoughts on this?

edit: I have found the article:
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=369&keywords=shankara+vallabha

[anadi]

Where did Bhaktisiddhanta get his brahmana-thread from? Gaura Kisora das Babaji did not wear it (as the photos show), for he was born a vaisya.

You are making a judgment about someone's CASTE? And expect to be taken seriously? Are you SERIOUS?

You did not answer the question. Instead of it, you ask rhetoric questions.

The point is the mixing of Vaishnavism with the social system, forwarded by Bhaktisiddhanta, a mixing which is against Vaishanvism and varna-ashram.

Bhaktisiddhanta was envious on the Brahmanas, and wanted to be one of them, he wanted a prestigious social status. He might have thought about that for a long time, until he came up with some sort of system of making brahmanas,
incorporated in the Vaishnavas Diksha,
which never existed before, than a Brahmana is born as a Brahmana.
His invention is against the injunctions in the shastra, and
against the teachings of Sri Caitanya’s,
as can be seen from my previous post.

Bhaktisiddhanta preached extensively against the brahmanas, which is against the injunction of the shastra:

The Lord spoke to Srideva in Srimad Bhagavatam (10.86.53):

brāhmaṇo janmanā śreyān sarveṣām prāṇinām iha
tapasā vidyayā tuṣṭyā kim u mat-kalayā yutaḥ

Who is born as a Brahmana ist the best of all beings in this (material world)- brāhmaṇo janmanā śreyān sarveṣām prāṇinām iha
What to say about his austerity, knowledge, contentment - kim u tapasā vidyayā tuṣṭyā
he is endowed with meditation about me - kalayā mat yutaḥ

duṣprajñā aviditvaivam avajānanty asūyavaḥ
guruḿ māḿ vipram ātmānam arcādāv ijya-dṛṣṭayaḥ (S.Bhag. 10.86.55)

"Persons whose understanding is corrupt and lacking knowledge – duṣa prajñā evam aviditva
does not respect and envy the learned Brahmanas - avajānanty asūyavaḥ vipram
(who are) the worshipful Form of Guru und and Myself – arcādāu guruḿ māḿ
(who are ) my soul- ātmānam
and whose appearance is worshipful - dṛṣṭayaḥ ijya."

i) Şrimad Bhagavatam (7.11.13)says that „a second born“ (Brahmana) has to be (first) born in a family, which over the generations has underwent the samskara purification rites - saḿskārā yatrāvicchinnāḥ sa dvijo.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Sahasranama


There was an interview on Hinduism Today from an acharya of Sri Vallabha sampradaya, he said that the philosophy of the Srimad Bhagavatam is more in line with the advaita of Kashmir Shaivism than that of the advaita of Shankaracharya (mayavada).
Any thoughts on this?
If we view the śrīmad bhāgavataṁ mahāpurāṇa wisdom to that of kaśmir śaivism one whould need to know the areas of comparision.
Hence I can do no justice to this question without due consideration of what to compare.

Yet ādi¹ śaṃkara-ji's view of advaita vedānta ( some call śāntabrahmavāda) is different then kaśmir śaivism. I say this without
judgement of it being better, good, bad, or the like.

There are several areas of difference:

In śāntabrahmavāda there is a view that brahman is niskriya (inactive) vs. brahman with spanda ( throb ) see this HDF Post if you are interested: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=53031&postcount=5 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=53031&postcount=5)
Followers are sometimes called brahmavādin-s or advaitavādin
In śāntabrahmavāda māyā is neither real or unreal ; In kaśmir śaivism the universe is perfectly real and māyā is the play and display of śakti.

Some even say the universe is mithyā ( false) ; In kaśmir śaivism the universe is śiva-rūpa ( the form of śiva, the Supeme, Consciousness)


In śāntabrahmavāda the notion of adviyā ( ignorance) is removed by vidyā (knowledge); I see only slight differences here, but offer the following for your consideration.
This vidyā is the sum of śravaṇa¹ (learning) , manana¹(reflection) and nidihyāsana¹ (deep meditation).
In kaśmir śaivism there is intellectual ignorance bauddha¹ ajñāna and there is pauruṣa ajñāna , that ignornce that is inherent in the human.

There is the slight difference between the two. In kaśmir śaivism there is the strong value and adherence to knowlege. Knowlege provides the foundation for liberation to stick, stay, not erode. Both bauddha¹ ajñāna and pauruṣa ajñāna must fall away for mukti to bloom completely.
The thought is one can achieve samādhi and make it stick, but it will erode if one's knowledge is not firmly established. Like holding a diamond in one's hand and thinking it a broken piece of glass.
There are a few other points that can be offered, but thought these were germane to the conversation at hand.
praṇām
words


ādi means beginning, or 1st; some also like to use ādī meaning to shine upon.
śravaṇa - the act of hearing ; also that which is heard which is śruti i.e. iti śravaṇāt - because it is so heard or revealed
manana -thinking , reflection , thought , intelligence , understanding ; it can also be homage , reverence
nididhyāsana - profund deep meditation
bauddha relating to intellect or understanding
mukti final liberation or emancipation = mokṣa

[kd gupta]

Yadasya anhubhedyah kradhu sthulmupatsat , muskavidasya ajato goshafe shakulaviva .28/23 yaj

Brahmin and Kshatriya exist in Ramrajya like situation only , all are SHUDRAS otherwise , specially in current state of affairs .

[Rasa1976]

There was an interview on Hinduism Today from an acharya of Sri Vallabha sampradaya, he said that the philosophy of the Srimad Bhagavatam is more in line with the advaita of Kashmir Shaivism than that of the advaita of Shankaracharya (mayavada).

Any thoughts on this?

edit: I have found the article:
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=369&keywords=shankara+vallabha

Namaste Sahasranama,

That's a good article.

I am not sure if this makes perfect sense but it at least signals a different approach to understanding the Bhagavata from what many of us are used to..

"The impression that a non-sectarian reader would have of the outlook of the Bhagavata on metaphysics is that it is not exclusively committed to any single system generally found in Indian philosophy. As in the Upanishads and the Gita, dualism, identity-in-difference in its various shades, realistic monism, solipsistic monism, etc. all find a place in the Text in different contexts. The Text does not show any antipathy towards any of them and feels no contradiction in giving a place to all of them. Its effort is towards the synthesis of all and not for positing opposition between the different philosophies.

The synthesising principle for the Bhagavata is Bhakti or devotion of the highest type..." ~From the General Introduction to Srimad Bhagavata The Holy Book of God by Swami Tapasyananda

[Kumar_Das]

If one really wants to delve into non-IGM (Iskcon/Gaudiya Math) Vaisnava thought, they need to move away from the easily accessible (ebooks published by vedabase.net and purebhakti.com, etc.) get serious, scrape some pennies together and buy some actual printed books.

Of course, a built-in disadvantage of this approach is that you will be unarmed when it comes to cutting and pasting slokas in a rapid-fire attempt to crush your (other Vaisnava) opponent, thus no longer being able to take advantage of the juicy op to commit one of the "ten offenses" in the chanting of the holy name.

In fact, you can even have the Srimad Bhagavata, Chaitanya-Charitamrita and never even have to listen to Srila Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or Srila Narayana Maharaja at all! And you don't have to become a Mayavadi either!

Here is the Srimad-Bhagavata translated by Swami Tapasyananda which I have found to be very enjoyable reading.. http://www.amazon.com/Srimad-Bhagavata-Holy-Book-God/dp/8178230461/ref=sr_1_42?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289212423&sr=1-42 (http://www.amazon.com/Srimad-Bhagavata-Holy-Book-God/dp/8178230461/ref=sr_1_42?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289212423&sr=1-42) Yeah, yeah, he's from the Ramakrishna Math, but check this verse out..

"Philosophers who accept a fundamental difference between Iswara and Jiva contend that, as the Atman is under the spell of Avidya (Ignorance) from eternity, he can never free himself from ignorance without the help of another centre of intelligence who is ever free from ignorance. That centre of intelligence is Iswara, and He is different from the Jiva". ~Lord Krishna to Uddhava, Skanda XI, Chapter 22, Verse 10

One can also look into OBL Kapoor's books.. http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDE915/ (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDE915/) Though originally a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, I believe he broke away from the Gaudiya Math, though I don't know the story connected to that. His book "The Saints of Vraja" is curiously devoid of the usual IGM line of acaryas.

Beware.

(Promotion of quarrel and dissentment amongst Vaishnava Hindus. And speaking of this lightly as though its for fun.)


...
thus no longer being able to take advantage of the juicy op to commit one of the "ten offenses" in the chanting of the holy name.
...

What kind of a person wants others to commit blasphemy against the deity that they worship?

Which devotee of Lord Krishna would want others to misspeak his God's holy name?

[Rasa1976]

Beware.

(Promotion of quarrel and dissentment amongst Vaishnava Hindus. And speaking of this lightly as though its for fun.)

Hey Psycho,

See if you can avoid interpreting and displaying my comments as subversive by hacking into them and turning them into out-of-context boldface type.

I've seen trolls before, but you are the whole package.

[anadi]

I had to stop there because right away you proved yourself to be a non-spiritual person in your condemnation of a school of Vaishnavism noted to it's belief and desire is raising the whole world to status of authentic Bhaktas and brahmanas and not by birth but by actual holiness.

The goal of the Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not to make brahmanas. In this connection Gopala-bhatta quotes in Hari-bhakti-vilasa (after 5.455) from Padma Purana:

pādme ca-
na śūdrā bhagavad-bhaktās te tu bhāgavatā narāḥ |
sarva-varṇeṣu te śūdrā ye na bhaktā janārdane ||

The devotees of the Lord are not śūdrā- bhaktās bhagavad na śūdrā
But the most superior personalities - te tu bhāgavatā narāḥ
(Persons of) All social classes are all of them śūdrā - sarva-varṇeṣu te śūdrā
If they are not devotees of the Lord - ye na bhaktā janārdane


There is no injunction to become a brahmana, and the verse also does not say that a devotee of the Lord becomes a brahmana (without proper samskar according varna-ashrama dharma).

̣ So what was the incentive of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to proclamate himself a brahamana, other than the social recognition, which gave rise to a riot amidst the brahmanas of his time also by his fabrication of brahmanas.

From the very beginning Sri Caitanya rejected varna-ashrama dharma as a goal of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, and although Narayana Maharaja rejected in the beginnig this too, he revised his point of view later, and took the side of Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhantas.


Let’s look more carefully at what “Prabhupada" said in the
Room conversation February 14 1977, Sri Dhama Mayapura

Satsvarüpa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up (That the perfection of life can be achieved by following Varna-ashrama dharma)
He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupäda: “Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihä bähya”
(He said that it is external- iha bahya, meaning that it has nothing to do with the true nature of the soul – divine love for Krishna)
Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.”
Satsvarüpa: But don’t we do that also?

Prabhupäda: No. Our position is different. …

In this statement “Prabhupada” rejects this teaching of Sri Caitanya, saying that what if
Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform…
"Our position is different." (meaning that one should be interested also in something else than spiritual platform-
eventually practicing karma (in reality vi-karma) mishra bhakti – under the later label daivi varNashram dharma).

[mukutesvara]

In response to those arguing over whether different devotees are Vaiṣṇavas in the line of Lord Caitanya or not, I request you read these two verses from Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:

“Furthermore it should be stated that even if one has just a little taste for the topic of bhakti, he can understand it. He who tries to understand bhakti by dry logic cannot understand it, because logic is insubstantial.”


“Concerning this topic it is said by the ancient authorities: ‘A person more skillful at logic can bring about a conclusion different from what was carefully proven previously by another skillful logician.’ ” [Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.45-46 (http://bhaktimasterclass.org/books/BRS/BRS1.1.html#45)]
This is coming from Rūpa Gosvāmī who was certainly a great devotee in the line of Lord Caitanya. It is useless to try to understand this stuff through dry logic, you can waste a lot of time which would be better spent cultivating your taste for bhakti. Only that will bring you happiness. I humbly ask you to consider this.


Anyway, here are some Vaiṣṇava sites:


http://bhaktimasterclass.org/ (A site focusing on the deep study of Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu).


www.esotericteaching.org (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/www.esotericteaching.org) (contains a vast amount of free downloadable material for Vaiṣṇavas at all levels).



http://mukutesvara.wordpress.com/ (my blog).

[anadi]

In response to those arguing over whether different devotees are Vaiṣṇavas in the line of Lord Caitanya or not...
I don't know if one argues about that. I personally realized that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has
1. not even ever been initiated as he and his followers pretended and as such... the folowers may or not understand the consequences.
2. He presented a false parampara as his chain of uninterupted gurus. By that was later invented the so called shishya parampara, renamed as sad-guru parampara.
3. as proof that he was not a follower of Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition,
- he adopted sannyasa vesha
- invented brahmana initiation
- never practiced raganuga bhakti as long as he had no siddha pranali - uninterupted chain of gopis belonging to a particular group in Krishna lila reflected in the chain if siddha babas of a particular branch of Sri Caitanya tree of devotion, he may worship according mantra mayi upasana.
- preached extensively against the brahmanas of his time -
- had not the tilak svarup of a particular Gaudiya sampradaya
...
for more "understanding", of what I "say", you can read my previous posts.

[anadi]

In response to those arguing over whether different devotees are Vaiṣṇavas in the line of Lord Caitanya or not, I request you read these two verses from Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
“Furthermore it should be stated that even if one has just a little taste for the topic of bhakti, he can understand it. He who tries to understand bhakti by dry logic cannot understand it, because logic is insubstantial.”


“Concerning this topic it is said by the ancient authorities: ‘A person more skillful at logic can bring about a conclusion different from what was carefully proven previously by another skillful logician.’ ” [Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.45-46 (http://bhaktimasterclass.org/books/BRS/BRS1.1.html#45)]One who has a little taste in bhakti, will argue, using bhakti shastra, the others not. Dry logic means not using bhakti shastra in one's argumentation.

A person skilful in logic based on bhakti shastra (of his own sampradaya), has some little taste for bhakti, as practiced in his sampradaya.

[anadi]

...This is coming from Rūpa Gosvāmī who was certainly a great devotee in the line of Lord Caitanya. Rupa Gosvami ki jaya

http://s1.postimage.org/7ce94zx229/rupagosvami.jpg




...It is useless to try to understand this stuff through dry logic, ...
this stuff... meaning "arguing over whether different devotees are Vaiṣṇavas in the line of Lord Caitanya or not"

Well, after many years of study Gaudiya Vaishnava Shastras, I understood that Gaudiya Math and all its branches are based on false "things", by the way including translations.
And I needed quite some time.
Attachment to some GM or even Iskcon gurus makes usually this quite impossible. ... Bharata Maharaja was attached even to a deer.:dunno:

[anadi]

[/indent]One who has a little taste in bhakti, will argue, using bhakti shastra, the others not. Dry logic means not using bhakti shastra in one's argumentation.

A person skilful in logic, based on bhakti shastra (of his own sampradaya), has some little taste for bhakti, as practiced in his sampradaya.

Skilful logic, based on bhakti shastra is not to be condemned:

tatra uttamaḥ —
śāstre yuktau ca nipuṇaḥ sarvathā dṛḍha-niścayaḥ |
prauḍha-śraddho’dhikārī yaḥ sa bhaktāv uttamo mataḥ ||1.2.17||

“The uttamādhikārī is defined as follows: The person who is skillful in scripture and logic, completely firm in his belief, with deep faith, is considered qualified as uttama in vaidhī-bhakti.”

[mukutesvara]

Dear anadi,

Thanks for your replies. It is always good to engage in scriptural discussions with devotees, but only if the purpose is to increase one anothers consciousness.

I have read your previous posts on this subject (at least the main thread posted on the forum that your profile linked to). I think you are basing too much on externals. Bhakti is based on consciousness; after all the main goal is to become conscious of our eternal position in relationship with Kṛṣṇa and partake in intimate pastimes with Him. The purpose of all the aṅgas of bhakti (and everything we do in the vaidhi-bhakti stage) is explained in Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:

In the Padma Purāṇa it is said:=

“One should always remember Viṣṇu and never forget Him. All injunctions and prohibitions are based upon these two principles.” [Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.8 (http://bhaktimasterclass.org/books/BRS/BRS1.2.html#8)]

I wasn't around during Bhaktisiddhanta's time so I can't say whether or not he received formal initiation (most of the arguments are based on different reports from different devotees). Formal initiation isn't as important as action though, and we can see that Bhaktisiddhanta certainly preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness vigorously and allowed it to become accessible to a larger audience (including the extremely fallen Westerners like myself, who would not have known about Gaudiya Vaisnavism without Him.).

His actions show he was initiated by following instructions; what does a formal ceremony mean? Many people get formally initiated but do not take the important instructions to heart (to spread Kṛṣṇa Consciousness).

For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me. There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear. [Bhagavad-gītā 18.68-69 (http://causelessmercy.esotericteaching.org/Bg18.3.htm#68)]
Of course, now we see the essence has been lost in these big organizations and there is every reason to be skeptical of them. They think vaidhī-bhakti is the all in all (which of course it is not). They also base things on externals, due to a lack of understanding of consciousness.

A Western-style religious organization was necessary for the time though, to infiltrate the West, because the entire world was under the control of corporate governments and religions. A corporate entity was needed for Gaudiya Vaisnavism to simply be recognized and to survive in such a hostile environment. Some things may have been changed for the purpose of encouraging others to take to GV, but the essence is there in scriptures for one who is sincere enough to study (and practice) deeply.

None of the changes are proof that Bhaktisiddhanta was not a Gaudiya Vaisnava. Most of these are merely external things and can easily be argued, but again, it just comes to wasting time as it is my logic against your logic—my understanding of scripture against your understanding—with no real benefit in our personal bhakti. If one is more hung up on small details than remembering Viṣṇu then what hope is there. You need to find what increases your devotion for Kṛṣṇa, and grab on to it with both hands.

I agree debate based on bhakti-śāstra can be very beneficial. Even if we reject all other scriptures, all other commentaries and all other lines and ācāryas coming from Lord Caitanya (such as rejecting Bhaktisiddhanta) we can't deny that Rupa Gosvami has given the ultimate conclusion in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu and so this is the śāstra we can firmly agree on the conclusions.

Someone may still use dry logic using bhakti-śāstra, arguing for the taste of superiority or being right in an argument: an ego trip. This is still dry logic even while using bhakti-śāstra. A taste in bhakti means one is actually performing bhakti as defined in 1.1.11 and getting bhāva from it.

“The highest bhakti is defined as continuous service or emotions directed towards Kṛṣṇa, His expansion forms or others related to Him, with a pleasing attitude towards Kṛṣṇa. It should be devoid of desires other than the desire to please the Lord, and unobstructed by impersonal jñāna, the materialistic rituals of karma or other unfavorable acts.” [Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11 (http://bhaktimasterclass.org/books/BRS/BRS1.1.html#11)]
Argumentation and logic are important but only in the view of trying to bring others to a higher consciousness. Only you and Supersoul can see the reasons we argue because again this is based on consciousness. It seems that arguing over small details rather than trying to elevate others consciousness is dry logic, not bhakti.

Devotion was certainly sparked in many people thanks to the spreading of GV on a widescale in the religious organizations of both Prabhupadas, which would not have been there without them.

It is then up to the individual to study bhakti-śāstra and practice it to attain the ultimate goal. Distortions came unfortunately due to lack of knowledge and certainly the need for Religious organizations is over. Now it is important to get back to small intimate ashrams so we can cultivate uttama-bhakti and share nice loving exchanges between devotees:

Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one’s mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasāda and offering prasāda are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another. [Upadeśāmṛta 4 (http://causelessmercy.esotericteaching.org/NoI.htm#4)]
Love and respect,

Mukuteśvara dāsa

[anadi]

Dear anadi,
I have read your previous posts on this subject (at least the main thread posted on the forum that your profile linked to). I think you are basing too much on externals. Bhakti is based on consciousness;
Dandavat,

1. It is true that one might be deluded to think in that way, but the externals have a big impact, through the mind, on the consciousness of any sadhaka, and this is why there are many rules for the externals.
2. The second principle is that of anugatya – following the orders of the acaryas from the line of gurus one is following. In this case, as Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati, had no guru, and no guru line, he made up some other rules, and followed no particular line of siddha babas- (a particular gopi yutha in Krishna lila).
3. Sadhana Bhakti has an external component, as well as an internal one and in the case of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati had his own ideas to ... get success, inventing a successful preaching misson very much simmilar to the Christian model, and made his own system.
4. The most important ist also that on the internal level he left the path given by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as long as he never accepted a guru, who should have give him bheka and siddha pranali.

"A siddha-pranali consists of the guru-pranali, a channel of gurus, in their siddha-forms (gopi-svarupas). One’s own guru, his guru, and the subsequent gurus traced back to the associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu form the guru-pranali, i.e one’s own guru-parampara.

In due course of time, a guru in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya reveals the details of his own siddha-form, of the siddha-forms of the preceding gurus, and of the siddha-form of the sadhaka to the qualified sadhaka. This is popularly called the giving of siddha-pranali, as the initiate becomes the last link in a channel of gopis preserved over the generations from a guru to a disciple."

[anadi]

Dandavat,

According to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, initiation (which Bhaktisiddhanta never had) is not something external:

1. Harinam is actually considered the blessing to start chanting, or the so called "first initiation", like devotees say it in the west. It is different from Iskcon and some Gaudiya Math types of "so called" first initiations.

2. Mantra Diksa (Krishna Mantra Diksa), this is connection with line/Parivar.The actual Diksa.

3. Sri Sri Siddha Pranali initiation comes later or whenever Guru-maharaja decides to give it.
In this connection ThakurThakur Bhaktivinod wrote in Harinama Cintamani:

Sadhaker jakhon raganugamarga lobha hoy, takhan
sadgtzur nikata prarthana korile tini sadhaker
ruci parikha koriya tahar bhajan nirnoyer
sange sange siddha deher paricaya koriya diben

When the sadhak’s lobha is awakened for the path of attachment (Raganuga bhakti) he will approach his Gurudeva with great humility.
After testing the disciple’s sincerity the bonafide Guru will instruct the disciple and adjust his bhajan according to the identity of his siddha svarupa.

Sri Gopal Guru Goswami, the first acarya in Gambira, wrote at the command of Sri Caitanya a Manual (Archana Paddhati) about the procedure of raganuga bhakti which gives details about siddha pranali:

asyaiva siddhadehaysya sadhanani jatakramam
ekadasa prasidhani lakhyantehati monoharam
nama rupam bayo beshah sambandho jutha eva ca
ajna seva parakastha palyadasi nivasakah

The eleven features comprising one’s eternal siddha-deha are as follows:
name - nama,
form - rupam
age - bayo,
dress – beshah
relationship- sambandho ,
group – jutha,
instruction - ajna
specific service - seva,
highest ambition (to attain a particular blessing)- parakastha,
the sakhi one serves under – palyadasi
residence (in a particular Kunja and village) – nivasakah.

Instead of it, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati introduced the Siddhanta of being one who descended directly from Vrindavan, to preach Sri Caitanya’s message, and many of his disciples presented themselves as such, following no raganuga-bhakti, as long as they were already from Goloka Vrindavan directly, or better said as long as they have never been taught such thing.
For example the "new" famous preacher Narayana Maharaja, who attracted many Iskcon devotees by his presentation of rasa Siddhanta, which is quite scarce in Iskcon, says that one should continue to chant and remember the pastimes of Radha Krishna, and automatically one’s own siddha-svarupa will be revealed, a siddhanta which is against Gaudiya Bhakti Siddhanta.

Preaching is wonderful, and this is only the level of the madyama adhikari.
The beginners (kanishta adhikara) are not qualified to do it, but they are pushed more or less by “the mission”.
The realized bhaktas have no taste in it, and hardly accept any disciples, as the shastra also command; they prefer to dive in the pastimes of Lord Krishna.

Is up to everyone, to accept the previous acaryas way of bhajan, or to follow the preaching mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.
Everybody has a different speed in bhakti, and particularly in Gaudiya bhakti.
Wherever one stays, it is one’s right place to be, as long as one feels ok there, otherwise he may seek further.

nijapekha srestha suddha bhavuk je jana
bhavamarge gurudeva sei mahajan
tahar sri mukhe bhava tattver sravan
hoile sravan dasa hoy prakatan
bhava tattva dviprakar koraba bicar
nija ekadasbhava Krishna lika ara (Harinama Cintamani)

One requires the best, pure person, taster of bhava.
That guru, which is on the bhava path is a great personality
From such a mouth one should hear
the truth about the two kinds of bhava
one's own coming out of eleven types of bhava -nija ekadasbhava
and that which comes out of the pastimes of Krishna

[anadi]

The purpose of all the aṅgas of bhakti (and everything we do in the vaidhi-bhakti stage) is explained in Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu ... 1.2.8 (http://bhaktimasterclass.org/books/BRS/BRS1.2.html#8)
dandavat

in my opinion there is a wide spread misunderstanding in the preaching Missions coming from Bhaktisiddhanta, concerning the angas of bhakti, seen also in your writing. The angas of bhakti are not restricted only to vaidhi bhakti. Raganuga bhakti has also angas of bhakti; Raganuga bhakti is a type of sadhana

Here it is a description of Raganuga Sadhan bhakti given in Bhakti-rasämrita-sindhu 1.2.295

sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi |
tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA vraja-lokAnusArataH ||

The devotional service should be done both -sevA cAtra hi
in the body of practitioner (externally)- sAdhaka-rUpeNa
and in the perfect(spiritual) body (internally) - siddha-rUpeNa
Desiring to obtain a particular state of love - tad-bhAva-lipsunA ,
whose essence (in obtaining it) is to follow the residents of Vrindavan -sArataH kAryA anu vraja-loka


Tika:
As we have seen the informations about one’s spiritual body (siddha deha) are received in the Siddha Pranali initiation (comprising the ekadas bhava), which is even derided in the branches of Gaudiya Math (which includes Iskcon).
Commenting on this verse Srila Vishwanath Cakrabarti describes from the point of view of a rupa-anuga devotee the two types of angas of bhakti practiced in “sadhak-rupa” and “siddha-rupa” following Rupa Goswami, respectively Rupa Manjari :

Sadhakrupena jathabastitadehen siddha rupena
antascintita-bhistatat sakhat servopajogidehen
sadhakarupenanugayamanaje brajalokah srirupa
goswamyadaya je ca siddharupenanugamyamanah
Brajalokah srirupa-manjaryaryadyastad anusaratah (Ragabartma-candrika)

“Sadhak-rupena-seva means devotional service performed in the present body.
Siddha-rupena-seva is contemplation of one’s antascintita-deha (mentally conceived form) suitable for perfoming direct seva to Krishna.
A sadhak should perform the prescribed acarana (worship) exemplified by Sri Rupa Goswamin in his sadhak-deha, and follow in Sri Rupa Manjaris’s footsteps in his antascintita-manjari svarupa. Because Rupa Goswami is the ideal Brajavasi following in his footsteps both externally and internally forms the ideal meaning of Braja-loka-anusaratah.”

Raganuga bhakti is also a sadhana which comprises angas of bhakti.
Raga-anuga bhakti was false understood as spontaneous bhakti, which is in fact the attribute of Raga-atmika bhakti, which is the state of the eternal residents of Vrindavan as explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.270).

virājantīm abhivyaktāḿ vraja-vāsi-janādiṣu
rāgātmikām anusṛtāyāsā rāgānugocyate

The following of that spontaneous attachement - anusṛtā rāga-ātmikām sā
That is Shining (and) fully manifested in the eternal residents of Vrindavan- yā virājantīm abhivyaktām vraja-vāsi-jana-ādiṣu
Is called Raga-anuga bhakti - ucyate rāga-anugā
Tika:
Raga-anuga bhakti has as its main practice the internal following (anuga) of the mood of the residents of Vrindavan.
In his Ragavartma-candrika, Srila Vishwanath Cakrabarti says:

prathamatah krishnam smaran iti smaranasyatra
raganugayam mukhyetvam ragasyamanodharmatvat

“As raga (attachment) is the occupation of the mind, so is smaran; therefore, smaran is the main limb of sadhana for the Raganuga practitioner.”

[anadi]

I wasn't around during Bhaktisiddhanta's time so I can't say whether or not he received formal initiation (most of the arguments are based on different reports from different devotees).

Dandavat,
1. One should take into consideration that there are two kinds of reports: those of the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta and thsoe of the "others".
2. The fact that he never followed any parivar line of Sri Caitanya but invented "his own" line shows in my opinion, quite clearly, that he never took diksha - the initiation in a parivar line, and this make the reports of "the others" to seem more trustworthy.
3. Breaking with the Gaudiya bhakti tradition, braught with it many deviations, (part of them already posted). Simillarly Iskcon breaking even with Bhaktisiddhanta's oraganizations (devotees from Iskcon been said to read only the books of ... "Prabhupada" and whatever the Iskcon GBC certified as "bona fide") braught even more deviations (especially in siddhanta).

[anadi]

Dear anadi,
Formal initiation isn't as important as action though, and we can see that Bhaktisiddhanta certainly preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness vigorously and allowed it to become accessible to a larger audience (including the extremely fallen Westerners like myself, who would not have known about Gaudiya Vaisnavism without Him.).
1. "Formal initiation" is a terminology invented by the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta. As previously stated Diksha or Initiation, is the linking with the parampara – the unbrocken chain of (for example) gopis (sakhis, manjaris or any other type of gopi) that leads to a Yutheshvari in Vrindavan who came with Gauranga in his Nawadwip lila.

2. Of course preaching bhakti is praiseworthy, making it “accessible to a large audience” but preaching the so called “Krişna consciousness” has not so much of the flair and speciality of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

3. You don’t come to bhakti, because, someone preaches something like that to you, but because you have to come to it; Krishna has already arranged it for you, and He comes to you as the guru you deserve to have. You are the one who make it happen, through your actions and desires of yore. It is not that Krishna played dice, and picked you up for… . There are verses in the shastra to prove this point.

4. On what level is preaching, or serving the Lord in this world? The Christians know - redemption - liberation. (Their problem is only that their so called holy books and history are highly forged, a process that we already met also in Gaudiya Vaishnavism).
Rupa Gosvami quotes Nāridīya Purāṇa:

dvitiyaṁ, yathā nāradīye —
īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā girā |
nikhilāsv apy avasthāsu jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate ||1.2.187||

The second type (of serving - dāsyam is illustrated) in the Nāridīya Purāṇa:
“He who has the desire to serve the Lord in this world with actions, mind and words is called a liberated jīva in all circumstances.”

Are the Gaudiya Vaishnavas so keen for liberation? As much as I know, this comes not in their Siddhanta. They want a lot more. So preaching missions in Christian style (Iskcon-s, “Gaudiya”-Maths), is not Gaudiya Siddhanta or Veda-anata.

[Braja Bhushan das]

Dear Elizabeth


let me start the list with two links to my gurudev who comes in a traditional Gaudiya Vaisnava line.

www.uttama-bhakti.org (http://www.uttama-bhakti.org) - an introductory site with a forum (English and Spanish)
www.sriharidasniwas.org (http://www.sriharidasniwas.org) - the official homepage

Hope this will inspire others to add more links.
Just a reminder that the uttama bhakti site has started to publish Vaisnava works in English and Spanish in the form of free ebooks - http://www.uttama-bhakti.org/books.html (bottom part). The first ebook published, though, is a spiritual guide for all followers of sanatana dharma.

[Tāṇḍava]

The nimbark site http://nimbark.org/ is good too

[uttam]

Dear Elizabeth , I appreciate your idea.I always maintain that there is vast vaishnav traditions beyond this gaudiya math/mission and we should try to know them.Remember ISKON is not independent conception. It has its parent body. Any vaishnab thought in the line of bhakti vinod thakur and his son bhakti siddhanta saraswati who is the grand grand father of all gaudiya math and mission will be same.ISKON is a part of gaudiya family .
I request all lover of vaishnav tradition of chaitany mahaprabhu to read chaitanya charitamrita edited by any writer who does not belong to any sampradaya.Repeated reading will help to understand the grantha and then you will see the difference between what mahaprabhu wants from us and what gaudiya math/ISKON preaches .
I agree with Anadiji and appreciate him for presenting the true picture of bhakti siddhanta saraswati's character.
lastly i will follow the sites to identify them.