PDA

View Full Version : "Rigveda, collected about 1000 BCE, has at least half a dozen Dravidian loanwords"



brahman
30 June 2010, 06:46 AM
Acceptance speech of Asko Parpola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asko_Parpola) at World Classical Tamil Conference [ Date : Jun 24th, 2010 ]

Following is the text of acceptance speech of Asko Parpola, recipient of the Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi Classical Tamil Award, at the inauguration of the World Classical Tamil Conference in Coimbatore on Wednesday (June 23, 2010):



http://flashnewstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/patil.jpg



"Your Excellency the President of India, Srimati Pratibha Devisingh Patil, Honourable Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Thiru Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi, distinguished dignitaries, dear colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, Vanakkam!
It is indeed a very great honour to receive the first Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi Classical Tamil Award from the President of India. Yet I feel embarrassed, because my work is only partly related to Classical Tamil, while there are Classical Tamil specialists who really would have deserved this award. But as this is not the only time when the award is given, I humbly accept that this is my turn. I am most grateful for the very considerable support for my continued work in this field.
The Government of India has rightly recognized Tamil as a classical language, a status that it fully deserves in view of its antiquity and its rich literature that in quality and extent matches many other classical traditions of the world. Yet, Tamil is not alone in possessing such a rich heritage in India, which is really a very exceptional country with so many languages having old and remarkable literatures, both written and oral. Sanskrit with its three thousand years old tradition has produced an unrivalled number of literary works.
Sanskrit goes back to Proto-Indo-Aryan attested in a few names and words related to the Mitanni kingdom of Syria between 1500 and 1300 BCE, and to earlier forms of Indo-Iranian known only from a few loanwords in Finno-Ugric languages as spoken in central Russia around 2000 BCE. But none of these very earliest few traces is older than the roots of Tamil. Tamil goes back to Proto-Dravidian, which in my opinion can be identified as the language of the thousands of short texts in the Indus script, written in 2600-1700 BCE. There are, of course, different opinions, but many critical scholars agree that even the Rigveda, collected in the Indus Valley about 1000 BCE, has at least half a dozen Dravidian loanwords.
Old Tamil texts constitute the only source of ancient Dravidian linguistic and cultural heritage not yet much contaminated by the Indo-Aryan tradition. Without it, it would be much more difficult if not impossible to penetrate into the secrets of the Indus script and to unravel the beginnings of India’s great civilization. In my opinion the Tamils are entitled to some pride for having preserved so well the linguistic heritage of the Indus Civilization. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that, though their language has shifted in the course of millennia, people of North India too are to a large extent descended from the Harappan people, and have also preserved cultural heritage of the same civilization.
Nanri! Tamiz vaazka!"





more reading


Indus Writing Analysis by Asko Parpola (http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola0.html)

Asko Parpola's homepage (http://www.helsinki.fi/~aparpola/)

Believer
11 August 2010, 12:07 PM
In my opinion the Tamils are entitled to some pride for having preserved so well the linguistic heritage of the Indus Civilization. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that, though their language has shifted in the course of millennia, people of North India too are to a large extent descended from the Harappan people, and have also preserved cultural heritage of the same civilization.

Tamils are surely entitled to not just some, but lot of pride for their cultural/linguistic/religious/architectural traditions. All castes and communities and groups of Tamils have been at the forefront of making contributions to, and nurturing the Indian heritage. The beautiful old temples they built over the centuries, the intellect they possess, the greenery of the land they inhabit is astounding. The mosaic of India is incomplete without all its pieces and Tamils form a centerpiece of that mosaic. All glories to the Tamils!

Sahasranama
11 August 2010, 12:18 PM
The dravidian languages originate as much from sanskrit as the north Indian languages. Westerners made the distinction between Indo european languages that are related to sanskrit and dravidian languages that are unrelated to sanskrit.

The vedas are apaurusheya and therefore cannot have any loanwords.

Believer
11 August 2010, 01:45 PM
The dravidian languages originate as much from sanskrit as the north Indian languages.


Westerners .....and dravidian languages that are unrelated to sanskrit.

Seems like conflicting statements???

The purpose of the forum is to find common ground and unite all Hindus, not split hair and keep them divided, as has been the case for thousands of years!

Sahasranama
12 August 2010, 10:08 AM
Tamil was declared to be a classical language, like Sanskrit but independent of it. Tamils want to take pride in it being accorded the same footing as Sanskrit. Why would you want to jump in without thinking and hurt their feelings by denying them this one piece of glory. I know you did not mean to belittle them, but that is what you ended up doing. Please be mindful of what you say/write. Think before you leap. I bring out an old dormant thread that no one touched, to praise the Tamils, and all you can do is totally negate that. You probably get the urge to be an authority on everything and make lot of posts, but, PLEASE think before you open your mouth. If it will hurt somebody or take away his pride, save your words for another day.

Thank you for your contributions to the forum, but, please be mindful of what you write.

I think you misread my words. It wasn't my intention to say that Dravidian languages are seperated from the Sanskrit language. Of course, there is some linguistic diversity between north Indian languages and south Indian languages, but vocabulary wise the dravidian languages are more related to Sanskrit than other ancient Indo-european languages like, let's say Ancient Greek or Latin. Westerners have been pretending that Greek and Latin are more related to Sanskrit than Tamil, Kannada or Telugu.

My objection was only to the use of the word "loan word" which cannot apply to the vedic text, since they are apaurusheya. If there are similar words between vedic Sanskrit and another language, may it be Hindi, Tamil or Proto-Indo-European, we must assume that the other language has loaned the words from Vedic Sanskrit. This is not how historians or archeologists would look at it, but in Hinduism it is known for a fact that the Vedas are the breath of God, spoken in the language of God and the Vedas were not created by man, but are revealed in their eternal form. Any Tamil Brahmana worth his salt would tell you the same.

rainycity
19 August 2010, 07:51 AM
some scholars are now proposing a greater language family that includes dravidian languages with the indo-european language family.

Sahasranama
10 October 2010, 06:27 AM
Tamil is a great language, but it's not classical. The oldest Tamil texts are one millenium old and are adaptations of Sanskrit texts. If Tamil can be classified as classical, then almost any Indian language should be classified as classical. People who speak Kannanda, Telugu or Malayam also want their language to be classified as classical, since Tamil has been declared classical by the goverment. This is all a big joke.

flabber
10 October 2010, 08:35 AM
Tamil is a great language, but it's not classical. The oldest Tamil texts are one millenium old and are adaptations of Sanskrit texts. If Tamil can be classified as classical, then almost any Indian language should be classified as classical. People who speak Kannanda, Telugu or Malayam also want their language to be classified as classical, since Tamil has been declared classical by the goverment. This is all a big joke.

citations please.

saidevo
10 October 2010, 09:14 AM
namaste everyone.

The title of this thread is a typical way of disinformation by the Western Indologists and the so-called Dravidian political parties who support them for their own vested interests.

• First off, Rg Veda was not 'collected about 1000 BCE'. Even a skeptical WI like Max Mueller with a Christian agenda estimated the date of Rg Veda to be 1500 BCE. LokamAnya Tilak has in his researches put the date to 6000 BCE. KAnchi ParamAchArya in his speeches collected as a book titled 'Hindu Dharma: Universal Way of Life', gives a highly convincing and enlightening account of why the Vedas are anAdi--timeless, and how all of them were created together and not at different periods.

• The term 'Dravidian' as used in the title statement gives a wrong notion of their being a separate race, as against the Aryan, whereas in reality both these terms do NOT denote races as the mischievous Western Indologists of their colonial rule of India made the gullible elite and commons of India to believe during their tenure, and their bootlickers try to persist with today, in a vain attempt to keep the AIT alive.

• The Sanskrit term Arya, as everyone knows, denotes any Hindu with noble qualities; and the term DrAviDa denotes country and the people (not a race) of southern part of BhAratam.

• There is no doubt that Tamizh is an ancient language, from which was born the other South Indian languages KannaDa, Telegu, MalayALam, and TuLu. The first known Tamizh book of grammar was called 'Agastyam' authored by sage Agastya, who is believed to have participated in the first Tamizh Sangham held at the old Madurai. Taking into account the fact that a Chera King named Udiyan CheralAthan, who fed the armies of the PANDavas and the Kauvaras, is mentioned in MahAbhArata, it is possible that the first Tamizh Sangham was held during the period of the events in the ItihAsa.

• Although Tamizh scholars are fond of saying that the word Sangha in Tamizh Sangham was from the Buddha-Jaina 'sangha', the origin of that term itself is in Sanskrit!

• Tamizh Sangham legends speak of how God Shiva himself paid a visit to a Tamizh sangha session and debated with the poet NakkIran, after the latter refused to acknowledge the greatness of a verse given to a poor poet named Dharumi by Shiva himself!

• The earliest extant work of Tamizh literature is 'TolkAppiyam', a work of grammar, by TolkAppiyar, whose date is estimated earliest at 500 BCE. This work is modelled on their Sanskrit counterparts of PANinI and Patanjali (among others). TolkAppiyam is still the authoratative reference of Tamizh grammar and is studied in school and college courses.

• The most well known work of Tamizh, 'TirukkuraL' by TiruvaLLuvar, is said to have the least number of Sanskrit words, yet the first words of its very first verse are:

'Akara mudala ezuththellAm; Adi bhagavan mudaTRE ulaku'.
"Just as alphabets originate at the Akaram--the letter A,
this world originates at Bhagavan".

KAnchi ParamAchArya has established that 'Bhagavan' was a popular reference for Shiva during VaLLuvar's time.

• Thus, there is no question of denial of relationship between Tamizh and Sanskrit and that Sanskrit is much earlier in time to Tamizh, and possibly the mother language of Tamizh. Even in today's Tamizh speech and writing, over 60% of the vocabulary comprises words derived from their Sanskrit counterparts.

• The name Tamizh itself is probably derived from the Sanskrit 'DramiL/DramiDa'. Since there is no Sanskrit alphabet to produce the sound 'zh' in the name Tamizh, the country and the people of this land were known as 'DramiDa'. This link has some textual references, but I am not sure of their authenticity:
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071005085948AAqkjE0

The origin of Tamizh from Dramila is also discussed in this book:
'The Racial History of India' by Chandra Chakraberty
http://www.isec.ac.in/Racila%20history%20of%20India.pdf

• The Tamizh script is based on a variation of the Brahmi script called Tamil Brahmi, but in today's form, there are striking similarities between Tamizh and Sanskrit/DevanAgari alphabets, specially with regard to the letters 'a, i, u, e, ka, ta, pa, Na, ya'.

The extent of veracity of all the above references does not in any way dimish the greatness of the Tamizh language, which is my mother tongue and a language I studied up to the college level. I have a good collection of Tamizh Sangham, and bhakti literature and I read/refer to them frequently.

brahman
12 October 2010, 05:42 AM
namaste everyone.

The title of this thread is a typical way of disinformation by the Western Indologists and the so-called Dravidian political parties who support them for their own vested interests.
.

Dear Sri. Sai,

That was indeed a very convincing post.

Here, I remember how you added a sense of humor in an earlier post- Nice, clean humour. (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=47729&postcount=31)

Joke: "There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side."

For that same reason, I try not to insist that ‘Western Indologists and the so-called Dravidian political parties’ are misinforming anyone.’

At the same time, I accurately believe (or was taught to believe) the Vedas are anadi-timeless, are created together and not in different periods and that Sanskrit could be the mother of all languages in the sub-continent.

God knows the right side of it.

Thanks again for the very informative post. :) Love



.

TatTvamAsi
13 October 2010, 03:31 AM
• Thus, there is no question of denial of relationship between Tamizh and Sanskrit and that Sanskrit is much earlier in time to Tamizh, and possibly the mother language of Tamizh. Even in today's Tamizh speech and writing, over 60% of the vocabulary comprises words derived from their Sanskrit counterparts.


Namaste Saidevo,

This is the first time I've heard someone say or even suggest that "Sanskrit is the mother language of Tamizh". I am not a linguist but I was always under the impression that Tamil and Sanskrit are the only two "original" languages in India. Isn't that why they were designated as "classical languages" of India?

Also, although there are many Sanskrit words in Tamil, especially when Tamil Brahmins speak, there are various words that are uniquely Tamil. For example, "arimA" means lion and so does "simhA". The latter came from Sanskrit obviously. There are many more examples.

Further, what about words like "rAthrI"? Did it come from Tamil or Sanskrit because it's the same in both.

I too believe Sanskrit is the oldest language and actually an eternal language as it is the language of the Vedas. However, as a non-Vedic language, I feel Tamil is certainly strong enough to stand on its own two feet. Perhaps I'm mistaken but that's what I've heard so far.

It would be great to see some scholarly papers on this topic.

Namaskar.

Sahasranama
13 October 2010, 07:13 AM
Further, what about words like "rAthrI"? Did it come from Tamil or Sanskrit because it's the same in both. The word ratri appears in the Rigveda. If you hold the view that the rigveda is anadi and apaurusheya, then the word ratri must come from vedic sanskrit and not from tamil.

saidevo
15 October 2010, 12:34 AM
namaste TTA and others.

I am not a linguist either. Although it is only my opinion that Sanskrit is the mother of the Tamizh language, like it is with all other languages, I think that there are ample pointers to this truth, if one investigates it all without any bias or emotional attachment to either language.

Here is a quote as to the classical status of Tamizh:

A provision to confer status of classical languages in India was made by constitutional decree in the 2004. There are few criterias which should be met in order to receive this status. These generally constitute antiquity in leadership, qualities as a base for other languages, rich literature, a language theory and so on. In this context among the classical languages of India we include Tamil and Sanskrit. Classical Tamil is the language of the Sangam the Sangam literature.
(http://www.indianetzone.com/4/classical_languages.htm)

As for the words arimA and siMha which mean a lion:

• Let us note that hariH in Sanskrit also means a lion. I don't deny that arimA may be a unique Tamizh word, but the connotation between these two words is obvious.

• The word siMham has its derivative singgam in Tamizh, which means a lion. The country name Singapore (pronounced singapUr) is derived from the Tamizh word singgam.

There are several popular words in Tamizh that have their origins in Sanskrit:

• The word 'kasmAlam' is a derogatory reference meaning an impure or cowardly person. This word is often used in scolding among slum dwellers in TamizhnADu. The original word 'kashmalam' in Sanskrit has the same meaning.

• The DK and DMK people taunt the brahmins in TamizhnADu for using the Sanskrit word 'aham' to refer to a person's home. (Thus, 'ahatthukkArar' in brahminical Tamizh means a husband as the master of the house.) Yet, these people have no qualms in using the term 'aham' as 'agam' with the same meanings in daily usage: uNavagam--eating house/eatery; kuRaLagam--Chennai branch of the KhAdi Krafts cottage enterprise; muDi-tirutthagam--saloon, where your muDi--hair is corrected; ezhilagam--name of a Government office complex in Chennai, and so on.

• The name of the beverage coffee, which is a must for most Tamizhs in the morning, has its equvalent 'kAppi' in Tamizh, which is thought to be derived from the English word; yet the word is derived from the Sanskrit word 'kapizha' meaning brown or reddish color.

• As far as I know, there is no equivalent Tamizh word for the Sanskrit kAraNam--reason, which is used as such in Tamizh. Some Tamizh pandits are fond of saying that the equivalent Tamizh word is 'Ethu', but then Ethu is derived from the Sanskrit hetu--cause/motive/impulse.

Any language has its own words and sounds but do not function by them alone, even in its pristine/classical stage, because as the famous English poet of the 16th century said, "man is not an island". As I pointed out in my post no.9, the very first verse of TirukkuRaL has four Sanskrit words out of its seven or eight words: akara, Adi, bhagavan, and ulaku (from lokam). No language can grow if does not use and assimilate words from other languages.

I shall post my impressions about the possibility of Sanskrit being the mother language of Tamizh in another post.

TatTvamAsi
15 October 2010, 03:30 AM
namaste TTA and others.

I am not a linguist either. Although it is only my opinion that Sanskrit is the mother of the Tamizh language, like it is with all other languages, I think that there are ample pointers to this truth, if one investigates it all without any bias or emotional attachment to either language.

Here is a quote as to the classical status of Tamizh:

A provision to confer status of classical languages in India was made by constitutional decree in the 2004. There are few criterias which should be met in order to receive this status. These generally constitute antiquity in leadership, qualities as a base for other languages, rich literature, a language theory and so on. In this context among the classical languages of India we include Tamil and Sanskrit. Classical Tamil is the language of the Sangam the Sangam literature.
(http://www.indianetzone.com/4/classical_languages.htm)

As for the words arimA and siMha which mean a lion:

• Let us note that hariH in Sanskrit also means a lion. I don't deny that arimA may be a unique Tamizh word, but the connotation between these two words is obvious.

• The word siMham has its derivative singgam in Tamizh, which means a lion. The country name Singapore (pronounced singapUr) is derived from the Tamizh word singgam.

There are several popular words in Tamizh that have their origins in Sanskrit:

• The word 'kasmAlam' is a derogatory reference meaning an impure or cowardly person. This word is often used in scolding among slum dwellers in TamizhnADu. The original word 'kashmalam' in Sanskrit has the same meaning.

• The DK and DMK people taunt the brahmins in TamizhnADu for using the Sanskrit word 'aham' to refer to a person's home. (Thus, 'ahatthukkArar' in brahminical Tamizh means a husband as the master of the house.) Yet, these people have no qualms in using the term 'aham' as 'agam' with the same meanings in daily usage: uNavagam--eating house/eatery; kuRaLagam--Chennai branch of the KhAdi Krafts cottage enterprise; muDi-tirutthagam--saloon, where your muDi--hair is corrected; ezhilagam--name of a Government office complex in Chennai, and so on.

• The name of the beverage coffee, which is a must for most Tamizhs in the morning, has its equvalent 'kAppi' in Tamizh, which is thought to be derived from the English word; yet the word is derived from the Sanskrit word 'kapizha' meaning brown or reddish color.

• As far as I know, there is no equivalent Tamizh word for the Sanskrit kAraNam--reason, which is used as such in Tamizh. Some Tamizh pandits are fond of saying that the equivalent Tamizh word is 'Ethu', but then Ethu is derived from the Sanskrit hetu--cause/motive/impulse.

Any language has its own words and sounds but do not function by them alone, even in its pristine/classical stage, because as the famous English poet of the 16th century said, "man is not an island". As I pointed out in my post no.9, the very first verse of TirukkuRaL has four Sanskrit words out of its seven or eight words: akara, Adi, bhagavan, and ulaku (from lokam). No language can grow if does not use and assimilate words from other languages.

I shall post my impressions about the possibility of Sanskrit being the mother language of Tamizh in another post.

Namaste Saidevo,

That is some really interesting stuff. I wasn't aware of such deep connection between Tamil & Sanskrit. It's funny because at home we speak in Sanskritized Tamil but it has become second nature we hardly stop to think about the etymology of the words!

I look forward to your post regarding Sanskrit being the mother language of Tamil.

Namaskar.

TatTvamAsi
15 October 2010, 03:31 AM
The word ratri appears in the Rigveda. If you hold the view that the rigveda is anadi and apaurusheya, then the word ratri must come from vedic sanskrit and not from tamil.

Interesting... the funny thing is though that most of the other south Indian languages have a lot of "Tamil" words in them along with Sanskrit so I thought every language in India is a combination of those two...

Obviously, there is more than meets the... ear.. in this case! :D

Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 04:13 AM
I am not familiar with Tamil, but I have heard from a kannadiga friend that the so called Dravidian languages have around 60 percent Sanskrit words. Western scholars like to think in term of indo-european languages which include Sanskrit and the northern Indian languages opposed to the dravidian languages. But Sanskrit has had a lot more influence on Tamil, Kannada etc than on the european classical languages, like ancient greek and latin which also have many roots in Sanskrit.

saidevo
17 October 2010, 02:19 AM
namaste everyone.

It is not my intention in this compilation to say that Tamizh had no independent existence in the ancient times and evolved from SaMskRtam via its popular dialects of the PrAkrita group of languages.

All I intend to say is only that once the Tamizh language passed from its tradition of oral literacy to written proficiency, the influence of the magic wand of Sanskrit that has enriched the language to become on par with it in every respect, is unmistakable and cannot be ignored. Nor does this influence in any way diminish the classical status of the Tamizh language.

It is in this respect that I would call Sanskrit the mother of Tamizh: she has fostered and raised Tamizh to its present grandeur today, as much as she has done in the case of all other languages of the holy land of BhAratam. Thus, the Tamizh-speaking people cannot and should not view their language, culture and religion as distinct from the Hindu laguage of Sanskrit, religion and culture, which have united all the languages and country in this land under the umbrella of the Vedas.

The following are some pointers to the integral unity of Tamizh and Sanskrit and the dynamic relationship and mutual influence that has prevailed between them since the earliest times. This is the reason that SaMskRtam and Tamizh are considered to be the two original languages of the holy land of BhAratam, spoken from the earliest times until today.

01. Is Sanskrit spoken today? May be not as a language on its own, but its union with almost all the Indian languages and the percentage of Sanskrit words in other Indian languages amply establish that Sanskrit is a language used by the Indian public in their daily life, albeit in proxy.

• Sanskrit as a language is spoken today in India by the entire population of 3,000 in a village called Mathur near Shimoga, KarnATaka, in every aspect of their daily life *01.

• Because of the initiatives taken by institutions such as SaMskRta BhArati, in India and the world over, (according to their Website) hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world have acquired the elementary capability to speak and write in Sanskrit today.

• There is a TV news channel in Sanskrit in India. shrI G.V.Iyer is a popular director of Sanskrit films in India. There are over a hundred Sanskrit magazines, which include a Sanskrit version of the famous children's magazine 'ChandamAmA'.

• Contemporary Sanskrit literature comprises hundreds of articles published by various Hindu religious institutions and by others in India. Scholars like Dr.V.RAghavan, have authored short stories and plays in Sanskrit. He has also compiled a dictionary of Sanskrit in the language of Thailand. As an eminent scholar who won several awards of honour, he was the HOD of the Sanskrit department of the Madras University between 1955 and 1968, and is the author of over 120 books and 1200 articles in Sanskrit *02.

02. Sanskrit has its origins in the divine. The sounds of the language were originated by Shiva with his damaru--small two-headed drum. The Sanskrit language of the Vedas took the name Chandas, and that of the UpaniShads and other works, the name SaMskRtam, while its popular version had the name PrAkRtam.

03. PrAkrita, although originated from and was the cognate of Sanskrit, was not a single language spoken all over India in the ancient times. The name PrAkRtam was the common name for groups of languages spoken in different regions of the Bharata KaNDa, which included: MahArAShTri, Shauraseni, Magadhi, Ardhamaghadi, and PaishAchi. Besides, there were the languages PAli, of the Buddhists. *03

04. Ancient BhAratam was divided into 56 kingdoms whose names were:

KAshmIraH, Nappala, Koshala, KAmboja, PaunchAla, SiMhala, Aungga, Kalingga, KAmarUpa, KurU, Bhoja, Vithaika, VAlmIka, Kekaya, Vunga, SaurAShtra, PunnAdaga, Parpara, Kuluntha, SUrasena, Dangana, MArtha, Saindhava, Purushara, Pandhara, SAliva, KuDaka, NaishIdha, ThUrka, Durga, Marda, Paundra, Maghada, Chethiya, MahArAShtra, Gundhra, KarnATaka, DrAviDa, KukkaDa, Lada, Mahrva, Magara, Desarna, Ottiya, Bachu, Yavana, Baguvane, Konkana, KAshyva, Dungana, Latcha, Chozha, PANDya, Chera and Kerala *04.

05. Every language had a long oral tradition which prevailed for centuries--even millennia--before it was reduced to writing, adopting a script derived from a common prototype.

• The oral tradition of Sanskrit is the longest and farthest in time for any language in the world. It may not be incorrect to say that this oral tradition was in vogue during the entire period of the first three yugas--satya, treta, dvApara--until it was reduced to writing, possibly by VyAsa MaharShi, at the beginning of the Kali Yuga.

• The PrAkrita languages spoken by the public and used in administration in the 56 Kingdoms of BhAratam had their own oral traditions of different durations.

• A most distinguishing feature of the Tamizh language is that during its oral tradition, only Tamizh was used by the public and the administration--not any dialect of the PrAkrita. This was because of the political independence enjoyed by the lower South Indian kingdoms that comprised Chera, Chozha, PANDya and Kerala.

• While the entire BhAratam up to the upper South India was under the Nanda-Maurya domain (Ashoka mentions Andhra among the terrorities included in his domain, in his thirteenth rock edit), and was administrated through the medium of PrAkrita, the lower South India comprising the four Tamizh kingdoms was politically independent of the Maurian empire, so Tamizh prevailed independently as the medium of administration and in public literacy *05.

06. The tradition of writing in Tamizh began around 2nd century BCE, and a variation of the Brahmi script, called Tamizh Brahmi was used for writing. IrAvatham MahAdevan in his magnum opus titled 'Early Tamil Epigraphy. From the Earliest Times to the Sixth Century A.D' lists the special features of derivation of Tamizh Brahmi from Brahmi *06:

• Two parallel systems of Tamizh Brahmi (TB1 and TB2) with different medial vowel notations existed from the 2nd century BCE until the 5th century CE. These were merged into an improved system of TB3. called Bhattiprolu System, described in TolkAppiyam, the standard Tamizh grammar work, which is the earliest extant work in Tamizh. System TB3 prevailed from the 1st to the 6th century CE.

• All but 4 of the 26 letters in Tamizh-Brahmi are identical or nearly so with the corresponding letters of Brahmi and have the same phonetic values.

• Even the additional letters in Tamizh-Brahmi viz. l, l, r and n are adapted from letters with the nearest phonetic values in Brahmi.

• The alphabetical order of letters common to both the scripts is identical.

• It is revealing that TolkAppiyam places r, n , l and l at the end of the series of stops, nasals and liquids ( Tol Elu 19-21 ). This arrangement deviates from the order based on articulatory phonetics. This small but significant detail indicates that the four special letters were originally regarded as additions to the alphabet taken over from Brahmi. The additional letter n is also described as the last in the Tamizh alphabet.

07. Tamizh-Brahmi is formed by adapting Brahmi to the requirements of the Tamizh phonetic system in the following manner *06:

• Omission of letters for sounds not present in Tamizh.

• Addition of letters to represent sounds in Tamizh which were not in Brahmi Viz: l, l, r and n.

• Modification of letters by employment of special diactitic mark viz the pulli--dot.

...contd in the next post

saidevo
17 October 2010, 02:31 AM
...contd from the last post

Influence and integral relation of Sanskrit with Tamizh

As mentioned earlier in this compilation, the language Sanskrit, the Hindu scriptures such as Vedas and UpaniShads, Dharma ShAstras, and secular writings, and the Hindu Dharma that always was a way of life, have enriched the Tamizh language and culture right from the times of its earliest oral traditions and the written tradition of the Sangham age. Some pointers:

01. Sanskrit is invariably associated with Brahmins, and vested interests in TamizhnADu unceasingly persist in their disinformation campaign that Brahmins and their language Sanskrit came to TamizhnADu from North India and were never part of the Tamizh land or culture. The following pointers should be enough to dispel such mischievous disinformation and establish that Brahmins were the original and much respected residents of TamizhnADu and that the Sanskrit language was a language used as much in TamizhnADu as in other regions:

• The term 'brAhmaNa' denotes those who perform the Veda yajnas detailed in the BrAhmaNa part of the Vedas.

• The Tamizh word for Sanskrit is VaDamozhi; Brahmins are referred to by the five terms 'AndhaNar', 'BrAhmaNar', 'Vediyar', 'MaRaiyavar' and 'PArppanar/PArppAn' in the earliest Tamizh literary works.

• 'Kalitthokai' a Sangham text, defines the term 'AndhaNar' as 'one who does-ANavu--approaches in study and life, the antam--VedAnta'. *07

• The term 'Vediyar' obviously refers to people who has studied and the Vedas and conducted the Veda yajnas.

• Since the Tamizh term for Vedas is 'MaRai'--hidden truths, Brahmins were also known as 'MaRaiyavar'.

• Similarly, the term 'PArppanar/PArppAn' used for Brahmins in the Sangham literature, refers to those who had darshan--pArvai, of the truths explained in the Vedas and UpaniShads.

• TirukkuRaL calls Brahmins 'ARu-tozhilOr'--those who perform six kinds of work: chanting Vedas, getting them chanted, performing Veda yajnas, getting them performed, charity and seeking alms. VaLLuvar says in verse 56.10, that if a king does not perform his duties of administration and security properly, the cows would stop giving milk, and the Brahmins would stop their Vedic practices.

• Poet ILango ADigaL, in his 'SilappadhikAram', refers to Brahmins as 'mangala maRaiyOr'--auspicious Vedic people, 'nAn maRai andhaNar'--Brahmins of the four Vedas.

• Brahmins were also called to perform judicial administration by the Tamizh kings. Such Brahmins were referred to as 'ARkkaLa andhaNar'--Brahmins in the field of administration of Dharma.

• There are numerous references in early Tamizh literature as to how the Vedas, Veda yajnas were held in high esteem. There are no references at all that the Vedas, Sanskrit or the Brahmins were brought to the Tamizh kingdoms from outside. In fact, when sage ParashurAma created the land of Kerala, he brought Brahmins called chozhiyas from the Chozha Tamil kingdom, to perform Veda yajnas and pujas in the temples he established there.

• There are ample examples of the place of Sanskrit in the Tamizh tradition:

‣ In an eulogy known as 'chiRappup pAyiram', TolkAppiyar, the author of 'TolkAppiyam', the earliest extant text of Tamizh, is referred to as 'one who was well-versed in Sanskrit grammar'.

‣ His disciple named AdangkoTTAsiriyar is called 'the AsAn--teacher, who was ripe in the study of the four Vedas'.

‣ ILango ADigaL in his 'SilappadhikAram' asks, "shrI RAma was one who went to the forest with his brother and destroyed the city Lanka. What for are the ears for those who would not listen to his greatness?"

‣ MaNimekalai mentions MAdhavi conversing in Sanskrit. Sanakara Vijayam texts describe common people (and even parrots!) in his native lands conversing in Sanskrit.

‣ In a verse of 'PuRanAnURu', the poet Unpodhi pasungkuDaiyAr talks about a scene from the KiShkindhA KANDam of VAlmIki RAmAyaNa.

• V.Chelliah in his great work Ten Tamizh Idylls (PatthuppATTu) has estimated percentage of Sanskrit words in some works *08:

‣ PattinapAlai - 0.9% Sanskrit words
‣ MullaipATTu - 2.6% Sanskrit words
‣ KurunjipATTu - 1.31% Sanskrit words
‣ ThirumurgatruppaDai - 30 words, less than 2%

02. Several Sanskrit works were written by Tamizhians *09.

• DaNDi, the author of the Sanskrit AlaMkAra text 'kAvyA darshaH' was a Tamizhian from KAnchipuram, TamizhnADu.

• Adi ShankarAchArya was from KAlaDi, KeraLa, were Tamizh was the language spoken at that time.

• RAmAnujAchArya was a Tamizhian from KAnchipuram.

And there were many other authors from TamizhnADu who wrote texts in Sanskrit.

03. Thousands of names of texts, persons, places, and other names in the DrAviDa desham comprising today's TamizhnADu, KarnATaka, Andhra Pradesh and KeraLa, have their Sanskrit cognates. Some examples of Tamizh names:

• Names of ancient Tamizh literary texts: Agattiyam (gramattical work by sage Agastya), TolkAppiyam (grammatical work by TolkAppiyar who was a brahmin well versed in Sanskrit; the name 'kAppiyam' cognates with 'kAvyam'), Kalitthokai (a moral text for the Kali age), AchArakkovai, and the Tamizh epics KuNDalakesi, VaLaiyApathi, MaNimekalai, JIvaka ChintAmaNi, and SillappadikAram.

• Most of the Tamizh dharma texts including the world-renowned TirukkuRaL are based on their Sanskrit counterparts such as Manu SmRti and other Dharma shAstra texts.

• The famous Tamizh purANam titled 'TiruviLaiyADal purANam' narrating the lIlAs--sports, of Shiva in Madurai is based on its Sanskrit counterpart 'HAlasya MahAtmyam'.

• Many Tamizh literary forms share their names with their Sanskrit counterparts, as the last names of these texts indicate: AbirAmi antAdi, Periya purANam, YApparungala kArikai, Madurai kalambakam, Tiruchchanda viruttam, and so on.

• Names of kings and other persons with Sanskrit names:

‣ Chera dynasty: Udiyan CheralAthan (probably from udaya), Imayavaramban, Kulasekhara varman, RAjasekhara varman, SthANu Ravi varman, GoDa Ravi varman, BhAskara Ravi varma, VIra KeraLa, RAjasiMha, RAma Varma Kulasekhara, and so on.

‣ Chozha dynasty: KarikAlan (karika--elephant), VijayAlaya, Aditya, ParAntaka, Sundara, Uttama, RAjarAja, RAjendra, RAjadhIraja, VIrarAjendra, AthirAjendra, Kulottunga (kula--lineage, tungga--chief), Vikrama, and so on.

‣ PANDya dynasty: MAravarman, Arikesari, KochaDaiyAn RaNadhIran (raNa--battle, dhIra--courageous), Arikesari ParAnkusa, VaraguNavarman, ParAntaka VIraNArAyaNa, MAravarman RAjasiMhan, Sundara, Amarabhujanga TIvrakOpa, JaTAvarma Sundara PANDya, Srivallabha Manakulachala, ParAkrama, Sundaravaramban Kulasekharan, and so on.

• Common endings of the place names in TamizhnADu have their Sanskrit cognates: (Tamizh--Sanskrit) TiruppUr--from pUr, RAmanAthapuram--puram, Dharmapuri--puri, TiruchirAppaLLi--palli (small village), KRShNagiri--giri, Virudhunagar--nagara, PudukkoTTai--koTTa (stronghold), KanyAkumari--kumAri, TUtthukuDi--kuDisha (a kind of fish), Sivagangai--ganggA, and so on.

‣ The KeraLa/Chera landmass was originated by ParashurAma, one of the ten avatars of MahAViShNu. KAnchi ParamAchArya in his lectures on the life of Shankara states that ParashurAma set up families of brahmins from KarnATaka, Andhra and Tamizh Nadu (chozhiyas) to perform worship rites in the temples he established. These brahmins mingled with the local population and evolved the MalayALam language, combining the local prakrit, Tamizh and Sanskrit words and phrases.

• Sangham literature refers to a continent called Kumari KaNDam, a sunken landmass beyond today's KanyAkumari. Both the names kumari and kaNDam are Sanskrit cognates.

• The river names in Sanskrit: AmarAvati, BhavAni, Gomukhi, Kabini/Kapila, KAveri, MayUra, PahRuLi (mentioned in Sangham literature, originates in the Mahendragiri hill), SankaraparaNi, TAmraparaNi, and VasiShtha nadi.

04. Thousands of Hindu temples with their individual sthala purANa--local historical legends, dating back to the PurANic times existed (most of which still do) in all these 56 kingdoms. Although the structures of these temples as we know them today were built only during the last 2,000 years or so, worship of the mUla-mUrti--root deity, dates back to the Veda/PurAnic times. This means that such worship must have been performed in Sanskrit by the local brAHMaNas well versed in the Vedic and Agamic scriptures and was attended to by the local rulers and public of the times.

05. References in the RAmAyaNa *10:

• shrI RAmachandra, who lived during the Treta yuga, on his way to Lanka worshipped Shiva in the southernmost seashore of TamizhnADu. This place named Rameshvaram has the famous RAmanAtha svAmi temple is a place of pilgrimage for Hindus.

• The RAmasetu bridge across the sea to Lanka that RAmA built with the help of his vAnara-sainya--army of monkeys headed by HanumAn. Whether Tamizh had or did not have an oral tradition during the times of RAmAyaNa, Sanskrit/PrAkrita should have been the language of the people and rulers in the part of the Tamizh kingdoms that existed at that time.

• When Sugriva sends his monkey warriors to search Sita in the south side, he mentions Chera, Chola and PANDya kingdoms.

06. References in the MahAbhArata *10:

• The map of India during the time of MahAbhArata mentions Chozha, Chera/Kerala, and PANDya kingdoms. References to the Tamizh kingdoms in the MahAbhArata include:

• A Chera King named Udiyan CheralAthan, who fed the armies of the PANDavas and the Kauvaras.

• When the sage VasiShtha was attacked by king VishvAmitra's army, VasiShtha's cow, KAmadehnu, spawned from her body different types of armies which included the tribals of Keralas to support VasiShtha. (1:177)

• The Kings of Chozha and PANDya brought numberless jars of gold as gifts to YudhiSThira's RAjasUya yajna. (2:51)

• The mighty SArangadhwaja, the king of the PANDyas, whose country was and his father slain by KRShNa in battle, later gave up his thoughts of revenge and fought against DroNAchArya, with his large army, in the KurukShetra war. (7.11, 7.23). A PANDya king, along with the kings of Kalinga and Vanga, participated in the svayamvaram event of the PAnchAla princess DraupadI.

Such are the intimate and integrative connections between the languages, culture and religion of the people who spoke Sanskrit and Tamizh in ancient BhAratam.

**********

In the animal farm of Old MacDonald, there were cows and ducks and chickens among other animals. Whether it was the animal farm of MacDonald or Manmohan or MAyANDi or Mustafa, the animals themselves communicated in their unique natural sounds and followed their dharma. MacDonald said that his cow spoke 'moo'; Manmohan said, "No, it was mA"; MAyANDi rebutted them both and said "You're both wrong. It was AmmA"; while Mustafa said, "It's after all a 'gAye', so why make such a fuss?" The cow itself was not bothered about it all and went about her dharma of being motherly to everyone. Such a cow is the great KAmadhenu of SaMskRtam.

References:
01. http://www.hindu.com/mag/2008/03/02/stories/2008030250200800.htm
02. http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082454700500.htm
03. http://www.indianetzone.com/39/prakrit_language.htm

04. 'A History of Travancore from the Earliest Times' by P.Sangunni Menon
http://ia311235.us.archive.org/2/items/ahistorytravanc00menogoog/ahistorytravanc00menogoog.pdf

05. 'A magnum opus on Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions' by R.Champakalakshmi
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lkawgw/tamil-brahmi.htm

06. http://ponniyinselvan.in/articles/2008-06-28/tamil-brahmi-script-part-3.html

07. 'Tamizhka AndhaNar VaralARu', a Tamizh research text
by K.C.LakShmiNArAyaNan

08. http://ponniyinselvan.in/articles/2009-10-06/ancient-and-unique-nature-tamil.html
09. http://www.tamilhindu.com/2009/07/sanskrit-few-questions/
10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_Kingdom

kd gupta
17 October 2010, 11:18 AM
Namaste Saidevoji
I admire with my heart of your great efforts for referencing hindu sacred texts .
Sanskrit was developed to explain the vedic mantras starting from Ramayan by rishi Valmiki . There are many Sanskrit words which contain the possibility of variation in meaning, say ajanata mahimanam tavedam , it can very well be said as najanta mahimanam tavedam . Ajanata ..as ignorance and najanata as unknowingly , no word is incorrect with the reference here .Similarly tamodwarestribhih narah….as tamodware by men and women and three evil doors by men , both may be correct .

Ved richas are to be recited as mantras for welfare of mankind and not for arriving to meaning , may be trayambakam….or aum bhur bhuwah swah… etc.

Also vedmantra says to preserve brahmanatva and not Brahmins who describe in mahabharat to leave ashwatthama because he was Brahmin …huh.

amith vikram
17 October 2010, 01:16 PM
Dear saidevoij,
you mentioned in one of your posts that all south indian languages originated from tamil. How do you claim this to be true? And how much sure are we about the history of our country?

saidevo
17 October 2010, 09:08 PM
namaste Amith.

It's not my claim that the other South Indian languages originated from Tamizh. The famous modern playwright ManonmanIyam Sundaram PiLLai in his poem 'Tamizh ThAi VAzhtthu'--an eulogy to Mother Tamizh, says "even after the languages KannaDa, Telegu, MalayALam and TuLu were born from your udaram--womb, how youthful you still remain!" I agree that this claim needs to be researched.

As you are aware, Hindus were not in the habit of writing works of history although they did write charitams--biographies, but then the history of our country can be researched well from the literary and astrological references in Hindu texts, stone and other inscriptions and mainly from the sthala purANas. Our governments are indifferent, our scholars are pedantic, and our youth are too lazy to take such pains, so they simply parrot the first-level excavations of Archaeology done by Western-mediated institutions and claim their interpretations as our history.

The life and culture of the people of ancient and earlier times are much more reflected in their thoughts and religious/literary creations than in the terra cotta or metal utensils they used to cook food or bury the dead.

brahman
19 October 2010, 04:55 AM
Dear Sri. Sai,

I am delighted to see these information you have acquired from various sources. Great.




The life and culture of the people of ancient and earlier times are much more reflected in their thoughts and religious/literary creations than in the terra cotta or metal utensils they used to cook food or bury the dead.

Thats true, some seek truth in gross, sthuula (Visible to the naked eye) and others in subtle, suukShma (guru vAkyA, thoughts, orally handed over scriptures and various pramanas other than pratyksha etc).
As the truth is beyond perception, beyond words and beyond the senses no such investigations would reveal it. We can only claim it in favour our own perception.
I would like to add a verse from AthmOpadesha Sathakam of Shri. NarayanaGuru for pondering on this thought.

Oru matham annyanu nindyam onnilOthum-
karu aparante kanakkinu Oonamakum;
dharayil ithinte rahassyam onnu thaan-
ennu arivalavum bramam ennu arinjidEnam.(AthmOpadesha Sathakam(MalayAlam) 45/100)

Rules of one faith may not stand good for another one, in that each order or faith came to be established in the course of time, as a matter of fact under the influence of certain external conditions such as, climate, geographical conditions, historical events, language, racial difference, and so on, and the secret of such difference, when realized will be one and the same and then all the arguments built up on illusions will have no meaning at all.


Thanks again for enriching this thread. :) love

amith vikram
19 October 2010, 11:38 AM
namaste Amith.

It's not my claim that the other South Indian languages originated from Tamizh. The famous modern playwright ManonmanIyam Sundaram PiLLai in his poem 'Tamizh ThAi VAzhtthu'--an eulogy to Mother Tamizh, says "even after the languages KannaDa, Telegu, MalayALam and TuLu were born from your udaram--womb, how youthful you still remain!" I agree that this claim needs to be researched.

.
indeed. Because i have heard that tamil is a transformation of kannada owing to the different accent. And the fact that kannada has many dialects like tulu,kodava etc....

ScottMalaysia
27 October 2010, 12:26 AM
I can think of a few more examples.

Flower can be either puu or pushpam in Tamil. The first is the native Tamil word; the latter is a Sanskrit loanword. By the way, all Sanskrit nouns ending in a short 'a' are borrowed into Tamil in their Sanskrit accusative case (-am).

Also, 'mother' and 'father' are amma and appa in native Tamil, but mata and pita are also used, and these come from the Sanskrit.

While there are some Greek and Latin words that derive from Sanskrit, the majority of their vocabulary is not Sanskrit derived and comes from the surrounding areas. Sanskrit is much closer to Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Hindi, Gujarati etc. By looking at some Sanskrit words, you can trace their development into other languages if you are familiar with those languages.

Sanskrit mata - Greek μητηρ (mētēr), Latin mater, German Mutter, English mother.

However, this does not mean that any of these languages have a high lexical similarity with Sanskrit. It is completely different to modern English and impossible to understand without having studied it.