PDA

View Full Version : Am i god? if yes,how?



amith vikram
10 July 2010, 04:27 AM
What does the phrase aham brahmasmi actually mean? if it is true that i am god,then why cant i create a world or etc.,why do i suffer if i am god?
Brahman is present to every man and is the universal fact of life. If any logical proof were necessary, Samkara points to the inability of the mind to rest in the realtive, i.e. the impossibility
of accounting for experience except on the hypothesis of Brahman.
In his account of causality Samkara makes the causal nature the svabhava, or the samanya or the universal, while the effect is regarded as a condition, avastha, or visesa (particular).
There are in the world many samanyas with their visesas -- both conscious and unconscious. All these samanyas in their graduated series are included and comprehended in one great
samanya, i.e. in Brahman's nature as a mass of intelligence. To understand the nature of this universal reality is to know all the particulars involved in it.
To say that Brahman is reality is to say that it is different from the phenomenal, the spatial, the temporal and the sensible. Brahman is what is assumed as foundational, though it is in no
sense substance. It is not in any point of space, though it may be said to be everywhere, since all things imply and depend on it. Since it is not a thing, it cannot have spatial relations to
anything else, and is therefore nowhere. It is not a cause, for that would be to introduce time relations. Its nature is inexpressible, for when we say anything of it we make it into a
particular thing. We may speak about it, though we cannot describe it adequately or have any logical knowledge of it. If the finite man can comprehend Brahman, then either our
understanding must be infinite or Brahman finite.
Every word employed to denote a thing denotes that thing as associated with a certain genus, or act, or quality, or mode of relation. Brahman has no genus, possesses no qualities, does
not act, and is related to nothing else. It is devoid of anything of a like kind or of a different kind, and has no internal variety.Brahman has nothing similar to it, nothing different from it,
and no internal differentiation, since all these are empirical distinctions. As it is opposed to all empirical existence, it is given to us as the negative of everything that is positively known.
Samkara declines to characterize it even as one except in the sense of secondless, but calls it non-dual, advaitam. It is the "wholly other," but not non-being. Though the words used are
negative, what is meant is intensely positive. A negation is only an affirmation of absence. It is non-being, since it is not the being which we attribute to the world of experience. It does
not follow that it is pure nothing, since the negative has its meaning only in relation to the positive. The Upanisads as well as Samkara, deny of Brahman both being and non-being of the
type with which we are familiar in the world of experience. We can at best say what Brahman is not, and not what it is. It transcends the opposition of permanence and change, whole
and part, relative and absolute, finite and infinite, which are all based on the oppositions of experience. The finite is always passing beyond itself, but there is nothing which the infinite
can pass into. If it did so, it would no longer be infinite. If we call it infinite, it is not to be equated with a mere negation of the finite. We cannot understand the nature of Brahman until
we let go the formal and the finite. Since the personality cannot be realized except under the limiting condition of a non-ego, the absolute is not a person. If we use the term personality
in a different sense, in which it does not demand any dependence on another, then it is an illegitimate use.
When the Absolute is said to be Nirguna, this only means that it is trans-empirical, since gunas are products of prakrti and the Absolute is superior to it. The gunas qualify the objective as
such, and God is not an object. The objects come and go, but the real persists as the permanent in the midst of all changes. So it transcends the gunas or phenomenal being. The
Absolute is not on that account to be regarded as mere blank. So the Upanisad says "nirguno guni."
It can only be negatively described as the other of its own otherness. It is sat (real), meaning that it is not asat (unreal). It is cit (consciousness), meaning that it is not acit
(unconsciousness). It is ananda (bliss), meaning that it is not of the nature of pain (duhkha-svarupa). It is real, having authentic being. It never fails to be, since it depends on nothing to
preserve it in being. It does not take in anything from outside itself, for then being would include non-being. There is no first or last in it. It does not unfold, express, develop, manifest,
grow and change, for it is self-identical throughout. It cannot be regarded as a whole including parts, for it is uniform in nature (ekarasa). It is real and yet devoid of the nature of the
world. Such a being cannot of course be physical, and quantitative and fragmentary. The everlasting being devoid of any deficiency is of the nature of consciousness, cit. Such a fullness
of authentic being and ideality perforce is free delight, ananda. All human bliss is a phase of the bliss of Brahman. It is highest truth, perfect being and fullest freedom.
Atman and Brahman have the same characteristics of being, consciousness, all-pervadingness and bliss. Atman is Brahman. The purely subjective is also the purely objective. Brahman
seems to be mere abstract being, even as Atman seems to be mere abstract subjectivity to the eyes of intellect. When we strip the Absolute of all its veils, we find that it is being refined
away, evaporated into almost nothing. How can we assume this residuum, this nonentity, to be the supreme reality of the world? "Is Brahman then non-being? No, since even imagined
things must have something to stand upon." If anything exits, Brahman must be real. It is our human conception of Brahman that seems to be empty and not Brahman in itself, which is
the fullest reality.
While Brahman is devoid of attributes, still those of being, consciousness and bliss may be said to be its essential features (svarupa-lakshanas), while those of creatorship, etc., are
accidental ones (tatastha-lakshanas). Samkara knows that even the definition of Brahman as saccidananda or sat-cit-ananda (reality-consciousness-bliss) is imperfect though it
expresses the reality in the best way possible. The power of the human mind is great enough to recognize its own limitations. Brahmanubhava (divine experience) gives the highest insight
into Brahman, and he who has it answers every question of the nature of Brahman by silence or negative marks. Vidya gives the highest positive conceptual account of Brahman by
equating it with the attributes of being, consciousness and bliss, which are self-sufficient. Avidya, or lower knowledge, applies attributes which imply relation, such as creatorship and
rulership of the universe. These are thus two views of the ultimate, higher and lower. Where, by discarding the differences of name, form, and the like, ascribed by Avidya, Brahman is
indicated by negative expressions, as not gross, etc., it is the higher (param). But where, on the contrary, exactly the reality is described, for purposes of worship, as distinguished by
some difference or other, it is lower (aparam).
Brahman cast through the moulds of logic is Isvara. It is not the highest reality, since it has no meaning for the highest experience where existence and content are no longer separated.
Yet it is the best image of the truth possible under our present conditions of knowledge.But Brahman cannot be both determinate (saguna) and indeterminate (nirguna). A reality that has
two sides or can be experienced in two ways is not the highest reality. The sides are dissolved the moment we touch the fountain of being. We catch aspects of the Absolute when we
look at it from outside. In itself the Absolute is without sides, without forms, and without any element of duality or gunas. These characters of form and personality have meaning in the
world of Vidya, or experience. In the supreme Brahman there is a natural dissolution of all relativities. It is not a system or a whole which can be achieved by an endless process of
reconciling opposites. The infinite is not an object constructed by philosophy; it is an ever-present fact. Samkara is opposed to all attempts to think the Absolute. The moment we think
it, it becomes a part of the world of experience.
Thus Brahman has no equal. Similarly when the great Upanisadic truth “aham Brahmasmi” is pronounced it refers to “there is divinity in me” in relation to atman or divine element
(signifying Divinity or God) in the person, and not that “I am Brahman or God” or “I am divine”. Furthermore, since Brahman remains same in whole or 'parts', all “jivas” in creation have
same spark of divinity, no more or no less, implying everyone equal in front of God.

Source: Dr Subhash sharma
note: this is a sample article from my upcoming project E-Nirvana. for more info about E-Nirvana,please pm me.

kallol
11 July 2010, 05:24 AM
I think there is a bit of confusion about the definition and understanding of Brahman.

It may be due to capability of understanding, or non conforming books, or limited to one and few sects, etc.

It would be appropriate to segregate, Body, Mind, Intellect and I to infer what is Bramhan as Bramhan cannot be comprehended directly.

Love and best wishes

amith vikram
11 July 2010, 07:04 AM
I think there is a bit of confusion about the definition and understanding of Brahman.

It may be due to capability of understanding, or non conforming books, or limited to one and few sects, etc.

It would be appropriate to segregate, Body, Mind, Intellect and I to infer what is Bramhan as Bramhan cannot be comprehended directly.

Love and best wishes
namaste kallol,
It is true that there are different sects not only in hindu dharma but even outside,who have given different definitions about brahman(or god).here let me state that this is monotheistic view.this concept of brahman as explained by shankaracharya.he has explained it very neatly without any ambiguities.unlike many others he didnt start off the definition from god,but from anubhava or self experience.that is the highest thing that can clear any confusions.also the definition about brahman is very clear.while defining certain attributes for atributeless brahman,for the sake of our understanding,two things are considered.one-affirmation of the analogous and second-negation of the opposite.eg.,brahman is omnescient.here we affirm that brahman is all knowing and secondly there is nothing that brahman does not know.this is the saguna brahman.
also there are many other writings which i can bring out,if u wish as to infer what is brahman.

brahman
13 July 2010, 04:19 AM
________________________________________



What does the phrase aham brahmasmi actually mean?


At an enlightened level of disclosure, Aham bramasmi is anirvachaniya, its turya. ( so it’s called Anubhava vAkya)

If one needs to explain turya, the forth in words, needs the entire server farms to be filled with various data.

If you think some Great Gurus have defined turya, please take it in the sense that they have only Intend you to move towards a certain goal which is undefined.

None of the texts in Sandhana Dharma define Brahman, instead ‘indicating the possibility’ of a pure transcendental state or a higher consciousness.



If it is true that i am god, then why can’t i create a world or etc., why do I suffer if I am god?


Vedanta splits the experience of the world into TWO distinct terms.


1. Drik or Seer or Experiencer – this is the Self or the Subject. This is independent, always existing, and real.

2. Drishya or Seen or Experienced – these are the Objects that become objects for the Self or Subject. These are all dependent on the Self for their existence and hence are temporary and illusory like snake in rope or water in desert.

Now lets look at Drik Drishya Viveka(1st sloka) written by Bharathi Teertha swamigal of Sringeri Peetom.

Roopam drishyam lochanam drik, tad drishyam drik tu maanasam
Drishyaa dhee vrittayah sakshi drigeva na tu drishyathe

Form is the seen whereas the eye is the seer. The eye is the seen and the mind is the seer. The mind and its modifications are seen and the seer is the Self alone which never becomes the seen or perceived as it is the Subject.

Also see, the smallest of Shri. Bhagavan Adi Sankara’s work is the Ekasloki which contains the quintessence of Vedanta or Upanishads in a single verse.
Kim Jyothis tava bhanumaan ahani me. Ratrau pradeepadikam.
Syaad evam ravi deepa darshana vidhau kim jyothiraakhyahi me.
Chakshuh tasya nimeelanaadi samaya kim dheeh dheeyo darshana kim
Tatra aham Athah bhavaan paramakam jyothih tadasmi prabho.

The Teacher asks the student
Kim Jyothis tava – What is light for you?
The disciple replies
Me ahani Bhanumaan – for me, sun is the light in the day and
Ratrau pradeepadikam – at night lamp is the light.

The teacher again asks
Syaad Evam – Let that be so.
Ravi deepa darshana vidhau – the way to see the sun and lamp,
Kim jyotih – what is the light
Aakhyaahi me – tell that to me.
The disciple answers
Chakshuh – eyes

The teacher again questions
Tasya nimeelanaadi samaya kim – when you close your eyes, what is the light?
The disciple answers
Dheeh – intellect
The teacher again asks
Dheeyo darshana kim – what is the light for you to see(perceive) the intellect?
The disciple replies
Tatra aham – for that It is ME (the Self or pure Consciousness)

The teacher then says to the student
Athah bhavaan paramakam jyothi – Thus you are the ultimate light (self-luminous Self).
The disciple then asserts from his experience and says
Tad Asmi Prabho – Yes, that is right, my Lord

World is nothing but name and form of Consciousness alone seen because the Self is not perceived in its entirety.

A person when he gains clear conviction of the Drik and Drishya is fit enough to realize the Brahman and he very well attains this realization without much delay and wouldn’t spend much time on thinking of creating something , also doesn’t suffer of the worldly acts.


For him creating world is like creating dreams......




Drik Drishya Viveka, ekasloki (http://vedantatattva.org)

amith vikram
13 July 2010, 05:55 AM
as far as i have understood, anirvachaniya is term used to denote maya and not the statement aham brahmasmi or turya.
when the upanishads talk about the four states,it does define turya.it is not left blank.i think you are mixing up turya as an experience with turya as a definition.because it is stated,as we all know,that turya can only be experienced(definition of turya)
if no text in sanatana dharma is defining brahman,then how can one know about brahman?as indicated in the initial post,we can say what brahman is not,and not what it is.this also comes under definition itself.it is also said that the nature of brahman has to be known only by the scriptures and none other.
'indicating the possibility'- brahman is not just a hypothesis.at least the 'i' is not.

kallol
13 July 2010, 10:25 AM
namaste kallol,
It is true that there are different sects not only in hindu dharma but even outside,who have given different definitions about brahman(or god).here let me state that this is monotheistic view.this concept of brahman as explained by shankaracharya.he has explained it very neatly without any ambiguities.unlike many others he didnt start off the definition from god,but from anubhava or self experience.that is the highest thing that can clear any confusions.also the definition about brahman is very clear.while defining certain attributes for atributeless brahman,for the sake of our understanding,two things are considered.one-affirmation of the analogous and second-negation of the opposite.eg.,brahman is omnescient.here we affirm that brahman is all knowing and secondly there is nothing that brahman does not know.this is the saguna brahman.
also there are many other writings which i can bring out,if u wish as to infer what is brahman.


I cannot go into details of it. However we find different interpretations of Gita, or Shankaracharya discourses. It is sometimes difficult to comprehend the context of certain sentences.

Yes the self realisation through self experience is the flawless truth - but again that belongs to a few geniuses. Rest we hear, read and analyse with all our shortcomings. Here only the actual message deviates and becomes different and unique. This depends upon the persons position in the spiritual journey, which is unique for all.

Love and best wishes

amith vikram
13 July 2010, 11:04 AM
I cannot go into details of it. However we find different interpretations of Gita, or Shankaracharya discourses. It is sometimes difficult to comprehend the context of certain sentences.

Yes the self realisation through self experience is the flawless truth - but again that belongs to a few geniuses. Rest we hear, read and analyse with all our shortcomings. Here only the actual message deviates and becomes different and unique. This depends upon the persons position in the spiritual journey, which is unique for all.

Love and best wishes
There are of course diff. interpretations and its also common that the inference could vary at times.but how's that relevant to my initial post?
are you trying to tell that one has to be a genius in the matters regarding self without even trying?or the self realisation is for the already realized souls?
again i dont know what u intend to say.what exactly is deviating?

kallol
13 July 2010, 11:56 AM
There are of course diff. interpretations and its also common that the inference could vary at times.but how's that relevant to my initial post?
are you trying to tell that one has to be a genius in the matters regarding self without even trying?or the self realisation is for the already realized souls?
again i dont know what u intend to say.what exactly is deviating?

Dear Amith,

Thanks for your continued query.

The answer was related to quoted post.

To some extent it is true that self realisation is understood better by realized souls. For the rest it is a long way to assimilate through sustained interest and devotion in the subject. The perspective changes with more interactions and analysis and is a function of time, space and experience. This shows that the state of equilibrium is not reached. Once it reaches one equilibrium state, the knowledge is stabilized to a particular level - may be dvaita, visistha advaita, etc. The transition state is a state of fluidity.

Those states might look different for people in the equilibrium state.

I take back the word confused. Sorry for that.

Love and best wishes

amith vikram
13 July 2010, 12:44 PM
kallol, i agree with you that the perspective changes with more interactions and analysis.but mere interactions and analysis can never lead us anywhere.it'll be like,as they say,a blind leading the blind.the real path of self realisation starts after we reach a state of equilibrium,when we get something like'theory of everything'.it may be dvaita,vishitadvaita or even purva mimamsa.that depends.
but i disagree with you that self realisation is understood better by realised souls.its like saying self realisation is better understood by guru than a shishya.it doesn't make sense to me,as the guru was also a shishya some time ago.

kallol
15 July 2010, 06:53 AM
kallol, i agree with you that the perspective changes with more interactions and analysis.but mere interactions and analysis can never lead us anywhere.it'll be like,as they say,a blind leading the blind.the real path of self realisation starts after we reach a state of equilibrium,when we get something like'theory of everything'.it may be dvaita,vishitadvaita or even purva mimamsa.that depends.
but i disagree with you that self realisation is understood better by realised souls.its like saying self realisation is better understood by guru than a shishya.it doesn't make sense to me,as the guru was also a shishya some time ago.

Dear Amit,

My experience is different. By realised souls I meant enlightened people who has experienced the self. They might not have gone through books or gurus like Buddha, Ramana, Ramakrishna, Aurobindo, etc.

There might be some amongst us also who have been there but have chosen to continue the sansar path.

The difference of these people with others is the following :

1. There is a sudden knowledge pool introduced to these people. Their perspective of vision changes (like the biswarupa darshan). They start seeing at macro level - inclusive creation / universe.

2. They are enabled to extract knowledge out of anything that see, hear, do, etc. Scriptures are like fish to water for them.

3. Most important part is this. For others is it groping in the dark night towards a goal - fuzzily defined or understood. Books and Gurus give direction but with their capability they deviate mostly. Like a person with eyes covered - though given a direction - but get deviated when they start walking. But realised or enlightened people are blessed with a light at the goal. So though it might be dark the goal being visible the deviation is always self corrected. These people are assured of reaching the goals faster.

This is my understanding.

Love and best wishes

amith vikram
15 July 2010, 01:01 PM
kallol,
i dont know how you put that under experience.at best, it can be an opinion. i haven't heard of these distinctions nor does it appeal to me.at least what i said has a logical basis under the 'guru shishya parampara' concept.

kallol
15 July 2010, 10:31 PM
kallol,
i dont know how you put that under experience.at best, it can be an opinion. i haven't heard of these distinctions nor does it appeal to me.at least what i said has a logical basis under the 'guru shishya parampara' concept.

I will leave you to live with your opinion.

Love and best wishes.

amith vikram
15 July 2010, 11:43 PM
but we all do the same.

kallol
16 July 2010, 12:55 AM
but we all do the same.


Yes you are right. That is why we all are unique.

Love and best wishes

brahman
19 July 2010, 03:48 AM
as far as i have understood, anirvachaniya is term used to denote maya and not the statement aham brahmasmi or turya.
when the upanishads talk about the four states,it does define turya.it is not left blank.i think you are mixing up turya as an experience with turya as a definition.because it is stated,as we all know,that turya can only be experienced(definition of turya)
if no text in sanatana dharma is defining brahman,then how can one know about brahman?as indicated in the initial post,we can say what brahman is not,and not what it is.this also comes under definition itself.it is also said that the nature of brahman has to be known only by the scriptures and none other.
'indicating the possibility'- brahman is not just a hypothesis.at least the 'i' is not.





Dear Amit, Thanks so much for your beautiful replies.


Amit wrote: as far as i have understood, anirvachaniya is term used to denote maya and not the statement aham brahmasmi or turya.

You are right (these definitions seems like definitions that are not precisely limited and end up in a terminology called maya, that is anivarcaniya.)


Amit wrote: when the upanishads talk about the four states,it does define turya.it is not left blank.

Right, I understand all these definitions together as apara since the terminologies used to define are not really efficacious


Amit wrote: i think you are mixing up turya as an experience with turya as a definition.because it is stated,as we all know,that turya can only be experienced(definition of turya)

I did not mix it up; it is already in an inseparable manner.
I s para different from apara?(here apara is used as defenitions and para is used as experience)
Are definitions different from experience?
Can definition be without an experience?
Can experience be defined without definitions?
Is there a definition that has no experience?

Also see the example of gold, the experience(para) and gold-ornaments, the defenitions(apara)
Can ornaments be made without gold?
Can gold exist without ornament (without shape)?
Is there something called ornament in gold?
Gold and gold-ornaments can never be separated, because it’s only gold alone...

Maya makes it separate.


Amit wrote: if no text in sanatana dharma is defining brahman,then how can one know about brahman?as indicated in the initial post,we can say what brahman is not,and not what it is.this also comes under definition itself.it is also said that the nature of brahman has to be known only by the scriptures and none other.

That’s right.

But, the uniqueness of the scriptures lies in their form, sabda(sound), and in each sound is subsumed the meaning in an inseparable manner, uttered properly, turns to sparks of knowledge.
It’s MantrAtmika, to be conceived in the form of Sound by repeated chanting.

The revelations, the experiences of the sages have been handed over ORALLY through generations.


Amit wrote: 'indicating the possibility'- brahman is not just a hypothesis.at least the 'i' is not.

This is all the absolute! I don’t know whether i know it or i know whether i don’t know it.


A blind can only amaze the listener with his explanation on eyesight, he can’t really drive the listener close to the reality/ experience.
:) (kindly forgive this blind)

Lots of love.