What is the goal of life?

[atanu]

What is the goal of life?

The answers will surely vary, depending on the nature, aspirations, experience, and knowledge of the respondents. But is the true goal many? Different for different people?

We understand that it will be a bad teacher who will apply a single prescription to all. A family bread earner cannot be taught to leave everything and resort to meditation 24 hours of day and night. No worthy teacher does that. There is no example of that in Hindu religion. But what is the ultimate goal as taught in Hindu scriptures?

My understanding, based on scriptural support, is that irrespective of one's station and knowledge, the the true goal of existence is only one.

I clarify at the outset that this post is an outcome of a recent post but it is to obtain mind of the senior members who decided not to be part of that thread on the subject -- so that valuable knowledge is gathered.

I request Saidevoji, yajvanji, EM to kindly contribute.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~

namasté

This as I see it is a very noble question to consider. I have multiple views on this matter . Perhaps I can offer a few ideas, and look to others and their contributions to reflect on.


It seems the proper framework to suggest that the goal ( or aim) in life falls into the 4 puruṣārtha¹ : kāma , desire and its fulfillment, ; artha , acquirement of wealth ; dharma , discharge of duty to one's self, family, society, and mokṣa , final emancipation. Yet it has become my observation and assessment that these 4 take on new meaning pending one's station in life, their advancement and their relative attainment.

That is, one's intent changes over time. Let me offer the following ideas.

A Spiritual Orientation


Pending one's spiritual intent kāma becomes mumkṣutva - or the burning desire for libration vs. the acquisition of things.
Artha is wealth, yet the wealth of what? The wealth of knowledge is one venue, and one's financial wealth becomes a tool to advance this desire for liberation. That is, provide food, shelter, time, i.e. a stable environment that one may pursue their spiritual practices.
Dharma is the approach for one to remain disciplined and stay on their path... this discipline is welcomed as it supports one's goals and activities.
Mokṣa is the level of Being that one wishes to attain , but it is no longer a philosophical construct or idea, but a level that one nutures.A Stream of Desires
On another level these 4 puruṣārtha's are all about the expansion of happiness. Fulfilling one's dreams and desires. This is not a bad thing as expansion is the natural tendency of this known universe. All this expansion can be done with the proper intent ( dharma ). Yet if it is done un-mindfully one's pursuits of 'happy' keeps the individual on the treadmill of desire... wanting more and more, but not being satisfied and not knowing why. This is my point , if the individual understands the overall goal ( really aim vs. goal) then the milestones along the way i.e. wealth, family, cars, acquisition, job, advancement, etc. are better put in perspective and can be seen as 'part of the ride' and not the final destination. Many they have figured this out, and there are many that still wish to crack the code on this.

The Mind
Just as a bee goes from flower to flower ( or a human goes from desire to desire) , an observer could possibly mistake this action and say the aim of the bee is unorganized and travel from flower to flower on a whim. Yet the observer misses the final aim of the bee's contribution to the honey that is produced back at the hive. Like that, we go from desire to desire and mistake this for the acquisition of more things, yet that is not the aim. The mind is looking for more then the most or puruṣottama (Supreme Self).

It ( the mind) looks and looks from place to place - that is how the nervous system is wired - looking for expansion. That is why the acquisition of things gives some momentary joy , but does not bring lasting peace¹. The mind finds its contentment in the fullness of Being, or expansion of consciousness, because it is without limit or boundless.

Hence with this statement it suggests one aim, peace of mind, balance of mind. It brings contentment, and also security and confidence in one's own being or nature. This I believe is a natural aim of a human. Some do not know it as yet as kāma is expanding in their lives and the pursuit for more continues to be at their door steps.

Pending One's Lot In Life
But one can easily say it is very difficult to think of contentment in the fullness of Being, or expansion of consciousness when one's belly is empty and there are financial challanges in life. Hence artha comes to the forefront, kāma is then the pursuit of sustenance and there is less attention on dharma let alone mokṣa. This I understand well.
Yet it is worthy of note that artha is the son of dharma and buddhi i.e. duty/responsibity and intellect.

praṇām

words

puruṣārtha = puruṣa + ārtha = human + aim , purpose
lasting peace - chāndogya opaniṣad¹, where sanatkumāra-ji is instructing nārada and says, nālpe sukham asti or finite (alpa) things do not (na) contain happiness (suka).

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu.

"What is the goal of life?"

I can understand, as you say, "from the scriptures, that the goal can be only one, irrespective of one's station and knowledge"; and this goal is known to every human, although the knowledge about it is less or more; it's also known that all jIvas will and must reach it perforce, although only eventually.

But then one must have an aim--lakShyam, to reach the goal--antaH, in lesser number of births to come later, if not in this birth itself; and this is where the perception of the goal and the aims towards attaining it differ personally, except for a jIvan-mukta--liberated-while-living, who has accomplished his aim of the goal.

• What is this one goal of life for all humans?

It is the knowledge and understanding of the Self within, and the experience of IT as the ultimate, absolute, and only reality. In worldly terms, it is the understanding of the divinity in human personality and its consistent expression in human life that leads to a constant reality of existence. The most beloved person of everyone is his/her own ahaMkAra--I-ness, and this love is sublimated and made divine when a person seeks to love God.

• Why is the goal only one for all humans?

Because, the very nature of the jIvAtma--self, is the attainment of ever-lassting peace and happiness. Such peace and happiness is attained only in Self-Realization.

• What about the practical side of the goal?

In a practical sense, the goal of an individual has always been the desire to seek knowledge. Only knowledge brings even the minimum bread-winning capability and the money to get the bread itself. Knowlege is attained, wealth and power are only obtained. A human mind gets corrupted with the desires of wealth and power, never by the desire to seek knowledge.

• What about the individual, personal progress in life towards this goal?

I can only speak for myself, and I expect others to come up with their own expressions of personal progress. As you said, the expressions would vary, "depending on the nature, aspirations, experience, and knowledge".

My nature has been basically laziness and procrastination. The one aspiration I have had through my life so far is to know 'something of everything and everything of some things'. I presumed in my early life that only by this pursuit could knowledge be obtained. But then since the perception about what actually constituted knowledge had been changing, and has now almost settled, the 'something, everything and some things' do not seem so much important now, although I still crave (as an inevitable expression of my ego) to acquire and share it in some areas of mental activity, specially the knowledge about my religion.

One thing I have sufficiently understood today, however, is this: the question is not one reaching the goal but the goal coming on to the individual.

[amith vikram]

in brihadaranyaka up.,an illustration is given:just like a dog licks the blood coming from its own tongue but thinkin its from the bone,like a kasturi mruga searches for the smell of kasturi comin from its own body,a person in ignorance wanders around everywhere searching for his own self.

in bg also krishna says,every person strives to attain me according to their svabhava.

therefore jnana and vairagya should be the goal of a person.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam all:

There has been plenty of discussion on this, and yes, I have sat back and watched ... to this point. All viewpoints are correct for the individual expressing it.

From my viewpoint, the ultimate non-experience is the realisation of the Self-God within. It is our destiny on this planet, and something all souls will eventually arrive at. I'm not sure if I would term it a goal.

In the meantime, there is the path. In many ways, it is more important than the end, because without it the end won't be there. We have to think in practical terms. All this talk of God and moksha within the intellect is a burden, a waste of time.

I remember having a talk a long time ago with a senior swami in the order I am affiliated with. (The editor of Hinduism Today) I said something about not being very interested in the concept of God, and more interested in controlling anger in situations such as burning the toast. He laughed with me at the time, but the conversation must have struck a chord with him because about 15 years later he mentioned the very same conversation to me.


I've made similar comments on here before so my viewpoint is nothing new to older readers. Advaita isn't practical enough for me. As Saidevo related so humbly and honestly, his sore point was laziness. That has been mine at times as well. So has anger management. So has the inability to just 'be the observer' and many many others. You have to work at the level you are at. We don't feed calculus concepts to the Kindergarten class.

Moksha is something for the very very advanced. There are many who can regurgitate other's words on moksha. But that is all of the intellect, and as soon as the next personal crisis comes along, it is all forgotten. There is also the trap that I liken to the Christian trap of "Jesus loves me so all is okay". It goes something like this, "Since God is All and in all, it is only God that is doing this stealing, this adultery, this criticising, this abuse, etc." It's an intellectual trap, a wandering off the path.

I knew a man who figured Ganesha would find him a job, so he didn't bother looking. I am not making this up.

When I was in Mauritius, I stayed in a family compound that had a main house and three sons were having their houses built. One was built, and one had the first two layers of concrete block done. It was obvious the process was slow. I asked about it. "Oh, it'll get done when it gets done. We save money, and when we have enough for another whole layer of block, we'll do it." They weren't even visualising the completed house, let alone the completed house for the third son. It was literally one brick at a time, not metaphorically as the saying. That really struck me.

Aum namasivaya

[brahman]

What is the goal of life?

The answers will surely vary, depending on the nature, aspirations, experience, and knowledge of the respondents. But is the true goal many? Different for different people?

We understand that it will be a bad teacher who will apply a single prescription to all. A family bread earner cannot be taught to leave everything and resort to meditation 24 hours of day and night. No worthy teacher does that. There is no example of that in Hindu religion. But what is the ultimate goal as taught in Hindu scriptures?

My understanding, based on scriptural support, is that irrespective of one's station and knowledge, the the true goal of existence is only one.

I clarify at the outset that this post is an outcome of a recent post but it is to obtain mind of the senior members who decided not to be part of that thread on the subject -- so that valuable knowledge is gathered.

I request Saidevoji, yajvanji, EM to kindly contribute.

Om Namah Shivaya


Dear Atanu,

In my opinion 'Silence' is the goal of life.


The vibrations of the Vedas serve the purpose not only of creation and the conduct of life. There are indeed Vedic mantras that help us to transcend this life and become one with the Ultimate Truth.

When a man returns by the same way as he comes, does he not arrive at the starting point?
In the same way when we go seeking how creation came about, we are led to the point where there are no vibrations, no movements, where there is utter stillness.

Some mantras that create vibrations in our nadis accomplish the same noble task of taking us to such a goal.
Such are the Upanisadic mahavakyas and Pranava.

[kallol]

Dear Atanu,

both Yajvan and EM gave the answers from macro and micro point of view. Both brilliant answers.

As EM and yajvan explained - the final goal is not visible as most of us are still climbing to cross the desire side. The micro wins are the goals of life. Though the gyani knows that these micro steps are micro inching towards the final goal - who knows when.

Love and best wishes

[atanu]

Vannakkam all:
From my viewpoint, the ultimate non-experience is the realisation of the Self-God within. It is our destiny on this planet, and something all souls will eventually arrive at. I'm not sure if I would term it a goal.

In the meantime, there is the path. In many ways, it is more important than the end, because without it the end won't be there. We have to think in practical terms. All this talk of God and moksha within the intellect is a burden, a waste of time.
-

Namaste EM.

Thank you for the reply. I can understand that from my perspective of an ignorant. I can understand this when an ignorant harps on Moksha or Self Realisation as a preacher, while not displaying compatible qualities/effects. I also think that no one is perfect and strong criticism of imperfections of others is the biggest imperfection.

But does it apply to Jnanis while they are imparting this knowledge to particular people or to particular devotees -- as per the rquirements in a particular case? Else, all Indian Gurus and all upanishads have to be judged as mere waste of time.

Moroever, I wish to add that the kind of freedom from irritation/anger/lust etc. etc. you mention is actually comprised in Moksha. Elsewhere it has been pointed out that transcending faith, unfaith, and wrath is freedom and ultimate strength.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste All

Irrespective of the diversity of paths and the variegations within a path, the goal however, remains one, as so eloquently expressed by everyone in this thread. For me, I liked and agree to all posts. The following three, IMO, sum up:

"In my opinion 'Silence' is the goal of life."

"On another level these 4 purusartha's are all about the expansion of happiness."

"One thing I have sufficiently understood today, however, is this: the question is not one reaching the goal but the goal coming on to the individual."

IMO, the last statement could only come from a wise born hindu and it reflects the teachings such as "Be Still". Obviously it is not easy to be still, so we have to do karma, which must be alligned to prescriptions, yet prescriptions may vary a lot. Thus, a path, prescribed for me by Guru/God/Nature/ Circumstance/Birth/Coincidence (and whatever) is unique for me. Yet the fact remains that everyone is seeking unalloyed bliss. And Upanishad says that "Self is Bliss unlimited." Regarding the goal also, i cite only the following two, mentioning that Upanishads abound with one single instruction.

BU IV, 4, 23. This has been said in the verse: The eternal greatness of a knower of Brahman is neither enhanced by works (karma) nor diminished. All that matters is to know the nature of Brahman. One who knows is untainted by evil action.

Therefore, he who knows this, having become peaceful, controlled, detached, patient, and concentrated, sees the atman in himself and sees all in the atman. Evil does not overcome him, but he overcomes all evil; evil does not consume him, but he consumes all evil. -------

CU VIII, 5 ------ It is the atman, free from evil, free from old age and death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst: this is the atman, whose desires are truth, whose purpose is truth. Just as people here on earth act in accordance with command, living in the country or on the piece of land of their choice--

6. just as here [in this life] the world earned by work (karma) fades away, likewise the world beyond earned by meritorious deeds (karma) fades away also. He who departs from this world without having found the atman and true desires will lack freedom in every world. But he who departs from this world, having found the atman and true desires, will enjoy freedom in every world.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

But does it apply to Jnanis while they are imparting this knowledge to particular people or to particular devotees -- as per the rquirements in a particular case? Else, all Indian Gurus and all upanishads have to be judged as mere waste of time.



Vannakkam Atanu: I don't think it applies to Jnanis at all. Whether or not any particular teacher is actually a Jnani is another question, and none of my business. That would be their karma. The difference is in the source of the knowledge within that person. One is plain intellect, whilst the jnani's knowledge is much deeper. A jnani can speak with knowledge without having read a single book.

As far as criticism goes, sometimes it is difficult o distinguish between criticism and observation, as I have discussed on here before. I am beginning to believe that it is emotion that is the telltale difference. Observation entails no emotion at all, whilst criticism entails emotion. On a place like HDF, it is very difficult to observe emotional reactions within others. So it can all be misinterpreted, as you and I have seen for ourselves on many occasions.

Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu.



Obviously it is not easy to be still, so we have to do karma, which must be alligned to prescriptions, yet prescriptions may vary a lot. Thus, a path, prescribed for me by Guru/God/Nature/ Circumstance/Birth/Coincidence (and whatever) is unique for me. Yet the fact remains that everyone is seeking unalloyed bliss. And Upanishad says that "Self is Bliss unlimited." Regarding the goal also, i cite only the following two, mentioning that Upanishads abound with one single instruction.


You have given a nice, down-to-earth summary. Let us make even more down-to-earth and say:

The one word, one practical/practicable word, that includes everything
a person needs to do here,
for the svarga hereafter,
and the ultimate goal of mokSha
(a laconic term for a state of existence which is here and now)
is dharma. That is, dharma = mokSha.

Says the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad of the kRShNa yajur veda:

धर्मो विश्वस्य जगतः प्रतिष्ठा
लोके धर्मिष्ठ प्रजा उपसर्पन्ति
धर्मेण पापम्-अपनुदति
धर्मे सर्व प्रतिष्ठितं
तस्माद् धर्म परमं वदन्ति ॥७९.७॥

dharmo vishvasya jagataH pratiShThA
loke dharmiShTha prajA upasarpanti
dharmeNa pApam-apanudati
dharme sarva pratiShThitaM
tasmAd dharma paramaM vadanti ||79.7||

• Dharma is the support--pratiShThA, of all--vishvasya, universe--jagat.

• In this world--loke, to one who is fully devoted to dharma--dharmiShTha,
subjects--prajA, approach--upasarpanti.

• By dharma--dharmeNa, (a person) chases away--apanudati, sin--pApam.

• In dharma--dharme, all/everything--sarvam, is supported--pratiShThitam.

• Therefore--tasmAd, they say--vadanti, that dharma is supreme--paramam,
as well as the means of liberation--mokSha-sAdhanam.

By the last statement is understood that dharma is both the means and the end; it is the path and the goal. No wonder then, that our religion is called the sanAtana dharma.

svadharma for the svargam; sanAtana dharma for the mokSham.
svadharma is personal; sanAtana dharma is universal--and eternal.

[atanu]

namaste Atanu.

You have given a nice, down-to-earth summary. Let us make even more down-to-earth and say:

The one word, one practical/practicable word, that includes everything
a person needs to do here,
for the svarga hereafter,
and the ultimate goal of mokSha
(a laconic term for a state of existence which is here and now)
is dharma. That is, dharma = mokSha.

Says the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad of the kRShNa yajur veda:

धर्मो विश्वस्य जगतः प्रतिष्ठा
लोके धर्मिष्ठ प्रजा उपसर्पन्ति
धर्मेण पापम्-अपनुदति
धर्मे सर्व प्रतिष्ठितं
तस्माद् धर्म परमं वदन्ति ॥७९.७॥

dharmo vishvasya jagataH pratiShThA
loke dharmiShTha prajA upasarpanti
dharmeNa pApam-apanudati
dharme sarva pratiShThitaM
tasmAd dharma paramaM vadanti ||79.7||

• Dharma is the support--pratiShThA, of all--vishvasya, universe--jagat.

• In this world--loke, to one who is fully devoted to dharma--dharmiShTha,
subjects--prajA, approach--upasarpanti.

• By dharma--dharmeNa, (a person) chases away--apanudati, sin--pApam.

• In dharma--dharme, all/everything--sarvam, is supported--pratiShThitam.

• Therefore--tasmAd, they say--vadanti, that dharma is supreme--paramam,
as well as the means of liberation--mokSha-sAdhanam.

By the last statement is understood that dharma is both the means and the end; it is the path and the goal. No wonder then, that our religion is called the sanAtana dharma.

svadharma for the svargam; sanAtana dharma for the mokSham.
svadharma is personal; sanAtana dharma is universal--and eternal.

Namaste Saidevoji

Thanks for citing a valuable conversation of Aruni and Prajapati and for distinguishing svadharma and sanatana dharma. The full conversation goes on like this:





Mahanarayaana Up.


LXXIX-1: Aruni, the son of Prajapati and Suparna approached his father Prajapati – thus we have heard – and questioned him, what is that which revered teachers declare as the supreme means of liberation ? To him Prajapati thus replied:


LXXIX-2: By truth the wind blows. By truth the sun shines in the sky. Truth is the foundation of speech. Everything in practical life depends on truth. Therefore they say truth is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-3: Be Tapas performed in the beginning gods attained godhood. By Tapas seers attained to heaven gradually. By Tapas we get rid of our enemies who stand in the way of our acquisitions. Everything is founded in Tapas. Therefore they say Tapas is the supreme (means of liberation).


LXXIX-4: Persons who practise sense-control shake off their sin by that. Perfect ascetics reached heaven gradually through sense-control. Sense-control is inaccessible to ordinary creatures. Everything is founded in sense-control. Therefore they say sense-control is the supreme (means of liberation).


LXXIX-5: Those who are of a tranquil disposition do good merely by calmness. Sages have attained to heaven through calmness of mind. Calmness of mind is inaccessible for the ordinary creatures. Everything is founded on calmness of mind. Therefore they say that calmness of mind is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-6: Giving of gift in the shape of dakshina is the secure abode of the sacrifices. In the world all creatures subsist on a giver. People remove by gifts those who are envious and malignant towards them. By gift the unfriendly become friendly. Everything is established in gift. Therefore they say that the gift is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-7: Dharma, religious righteousness, is the support of the whole universe. All people draw near a person who is fully devoted to dharma. Through dharma a person chases away sin. All are supported by dharma. Therefore they say that dharma is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-8: In this world procreation is certainly the foundation of the race. A person who extends the continuity of progeny in the right way by rearing offsprings, according to the scriptural rules, discharges his debt towards his departed ancestors. That alone is the way for him to pay off his debts towards his ancestors. Therefore they say that procreation is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-9: The great sacrificial Fires are indeed the three-fold knowledge and the path leading to godhood. Of them, the Garhapatya Fire is Rig-Veda, the earth and the Rathantara Saman chant; Anvaharyapachana is Yajur-Veda mid-region and the Vamadevya Saman chant; Ahavaniya is the Sama-Veda, the heavenly worlds and the Brihat Saman chant. Therefore they say that the sacrificial Fires are the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-10: The performance of Agnihotra at dawn and sunset is an expiation for sins incidental to house-keeping. It is a good yaga and a good homa and also it is the commencement of all yajna-s and kratu-s. It is a beacon to the heavenly world. Therefore they say Agnihotra is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-11: Others devoted to the Vedic religion say that sacrifice is the means of liberation. Sacrifice is indeed dear to gods. Verily gods have attained to heaven by their previous deeds of sacrifice. They have driven away demons by sacrifice. By sacrifice those who are hostile become friendly. Everything is supported by sacrifice. Therefore they say sacrifice is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-12: Inward worship or mental concentration is indeed the means of attaining to the state of Prajapati and so that is holy. Those who possess a mind endowed with the power of inward concentration see and realise what is good. Through mental concentration, seers like Vishvamitra created subjects by mere wish. All depends upon this power of the mind. Therefore they say that the power of inward concentration is the supreme means of liberation.


LXXIX-13: Wise seers declare that Sannyasa mentioned as the supreme means of liberation is Brahman, and that Brahman is the Universal Spirit, is supremely blissful, is self-born, is the protector of created beings, is the soul of time, and so forth.


LXXIX-14: The year is the yonder sun. That Person who is in the sun is Hiranyagarbha; He is Parameshthin (the protector of the universe) and Brahmatman – Supreme Reality that is the innermost Self of all creatures.


LXXIX-15: Those rays by which the sun gives heat, the same rays transform water into rain-cloud which showers the rain. By the rain-cloud herbs and trees come into existence. From herbs and trees food is produced. By the use of food the breaths and sense are nourished. When the life-breath is nourished one gets bodily strength. Bodily strength gives the capacity to practise Tapas (in the shape of self-control, religious fast and so forth). As the result of such Tapas, faith in scriptural truths springs into existence. By faith mental power comes. By mental power sense-control is made possible. By sense-control reflection is engendered. From reflection calmness of mind results. Conclusive experience of Truth follows calmness. By conclusive experience of Truth remembrance of It is engendered. Remembrance produces continuous remembrance. From continuous remembrance results unbroken direct realization of Truth. By such realization a person knows the Atman. For this reason, he who gives food gives all these. For, it is found that the vital breaths and the senses of creatures are from food, that reflection functions with the vital breath and the senses, that unbroken direct realization comes from reflection and that bliss comes from unbroken direct realization of Truth. Thus having attained bliss one becomes the Supreme which is the source of the universe.


LXXIX-16: He by whom all thus universe is pervaded – the earth and the mid-region, the heaven and the quarters and the sub-quarters – that Person is fivefold and is constituted of five substances. He who has attained supreme knowledge through Sannyasa is, indeed, this Person. He is all that is perceptible at present, was in the past and will be in the future. Through apparently human, his true nature is that which is settled by the enquiry into the Vedas and what is attained by his new birth in right knowledge. He is firmly established in the richness of knowledge imparted by his guru, as also in his faith and in Truth. He has become the self-resplendent. Being such a one he remains beyond the darkness of ignorance. O Aruni, having become one possessed of knowledge by realizing Him, the Supreme, through Sannyasa and with your mind fixed in the heart, do not again fall a prey to death. Because Sannyasa is thus the supreme means of realization, therefore wise men declare that to be above all other means of liberation.


LXXIX-17: O Supreme, Thou art the giver of the wealth of supreme knowledge to us. Thou hast become all. Thou unitest the individual Souls in the Sutratman. Thou pervadest the universe. Thou art the giver of the lustre to fire. Thou art the giver of light and heat to the sun. Thou art the bestower of the riches of light to the moon. Thou art taken in the upayama vessel as soma juice for oblation. We worship Thee the Supreme who art such for the manifestation of Light.


LXXIX-18: (The Sannyasin having meditated upon the Supreme) should concentrate his thoughts on Him uttering the syllable Om. This, the syllable Om, verily is the substance of many great Upanishads and a secret guarded by the gods without imparting to the unfit. He who practises meditation on the Supreme thus with the aid of Pranava after Sannyasa attains to the unlimited greatness of the Supreme. By that he attains to the greatness of Brahman. Thus the secret knowledge has been imparted.


LXXX-1: The institutor of the sacrifice, in the case of the sacrifice offered by a Sannyasin who has attained supreme knowledge in the manner already described, is his own Self. His faith is his wife; his body is his sacrificial fuel; his chest is his altar; his hairs are his holy grass; the Veda he has learnt is his tuft of hair; his heart is his sacrificial post; his desire is his clarified butter; his anger is his animal to be immolated; his austerity is his fire; his sense-control is his immolator; his gifts are his dakshina; his speech is his Hotir priest; his breath is his Udgatir priest; his sight is his Adhvaryu priest; his mind is his Brahman priest; his hearing is his Agnid priest; the span of his life is his preparatory rite; what he eats that is his oblation; what he drinks that is his drinking of soma juice; when he delights himself that is his Upasad rite; when he walks, sits and stands that is his Pravargya rite; that which is his mouth that is his Ahavaniya Fire; that which is his utterance that is his offering of oblation; that which is his knowledge that is his Homa sacrifices; when he eats in the afternoon and forenoon that is his Samid-homa (oblation of fuel in the fire); the three divisions of the day – forenoon, midday and evening – relating to him are his savanas; the day and night are his Darsapurnamasa sacrifices; the half months and the months are his Chaturmasya sacrifice; the seasons are his Pasubandha sacrifice; the samvatsaras and the parivatsaras are his Ahargana sacrifice; the total sacrifice is, indeed, his Sattra; death is the Avabhritha or completion of his sacrifice. That person who knows this, namely, the conduct of a Sannyasin – covering all the duties from Agnihotra to Sattra and terminating in death overcome by old age – and who dies during the period of the sun’s movement to the north attains to the overlordship of gods like Indra and then reaches identity or companionship with the sun. On the other hand he who dies during the period when the sun moves to the south gets only the greatness of the manes and then attains to the identity or companionship with the moon. A Brahmana who knows separately the greatness of the sun and the moon realizes these two; but he who has become a knower of Hiranyagarbha wins further. From that knowledge which was acquired in the world of Hiranyagarbha, he attains to the greatness of Brahman, the Supreme who is Existence-Knowledge-Bliss, at the dissolution of the world of Hiranyagarbha. Thus the secret knowledge here, and in this Upanishad, is concluded.


Sannasya is noted as the highest means and it is also explained that Sannyasa is not mere giving up of worldly comforts or wearing of Gerua. True sannyasa is giving the self to the Self. That is why, the Gita ends with a sacred upadesha: Sarva Dharma -----. All ways enumerated above lead to the Supreme. Yet, the Upanishad distinguishes the path to Moon, the Path to Sun, and the path of knowledge of Hiranyagarbha.

For this reason, I found your statement: "One thing I have sufficiently understood today, however, is this: the question is not one reaching the goal but the goal coming on to the individual." , as the highest understanding. This itself is knowledge.

I think that the body and the mind being inert, it is impossible that these will reach the goal. Rather the origin, the Hiranyagarbha, draws the wayward mind in immediately provided the mind is still. All practices are towards this end.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Atanu ji and all

A story from Mahabharat comes to mind, the young princes being tested by Dronacharya, all except Arjun failed the target test. Everyone saw the target differently while Arjun’s lux or target was fixed.

Seemingly simple question by you, brings forth a lot off complex answers, none committal, four purashartha to individual aspiration being non judgemental, all sounds very good.

Does Vedas have a goal set, does our great Acharya like Shankra set a goal? Did Lord Shree Krishna in Gita set us a goal?

Thanks to Saidevo ji for the quote on dharma from Upanisad.


Lord Krishna describe this sansara as a banyan tree in chapter 15, and implores us, to cut our relation with it.

Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. Having cut these firm roots of the Ashvattha tree by the mighty ax of (Jnana and) Vairaagya or detachment; (15.03)

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

The goal should be sought reaching which one does not come back; and there surrender to that primal purusam from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

Shankracharya in Vivek Chudamni says so in no uncertain terms also

1. I bow to Govinda, whose nature is Bliss Supreme, -----
2. For all beings a human birth is difficult to obtain, more so is a male body; rarer than that is Brahmanahood; rarer still is the attachment to the path of Vedic religion; higher than this is erudition in the scriptures; discrimination between the Self and not-Self, Realisation, and continuing in a state of identity with Brahman – these come next in order. (This kind of) Mukti (Liberation) is not to be attained except through the well-earned merits of a hundred crore of births.
3. These are three things which are rare indeed and are due to the grace of God – namely, a human birth, the longing for Liberation, and the protecting care of a perfected sage.
4. The man who, having by some means obtained a human birth, with a male body and mastery of the Vedas to boot, is foolish enough not to exert himself for self-liberation, verily commits suicide, for he kills himself by clinging to things unreal.
5. What greater fool is there than the man who having obtained a rare human body, and a masculine body too, neglects to achieve the real end of this life ?

Following the Purshartha with dharma at fore sets us apart from Pashu but pursharth is a tool not a goal that is my opinion.
Without sitting on the fence I will on my part declare that Moksha and love of God is the goal of life, although I fail in my attempts as the pull of maya is very strong and I fall down perpetually but with that goal in my mind and his/her Karuna I hope one day I will achieve that goal.

Am I suggesting we all abandon our duty and proceed to the forest? No but when the time comes we have to give up everything including our loved ones, for whom we struggle and work very hard, therefore a wise one asks in solitude what is the purpose of life?

That is when our spiritual journey begins, reading the scriptures listening to dharma gurus, who will only echo what’s in the Vedas towards that final goal.

they are not Abramic in nature, idiotic or foolish, it is voluntary, as Lord Krishna says, now do as you please to Arjun. this is the nature of sanatan dharma, it is a self enquiry.

Jai Shree Krishna

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I have no doubt or dispute that mokSha is the only goal of life, but I did wonder as to why dharma is equated with mokSha. Perhaps the reasons could be:

• Dharma and Love of God are readily understood from the shaikSha sAdhaka--novice seeker, to the mumukShu--sage striving for mokSha. As against this, a shaikSha has only a vague idea of mokSha, an anubhavin--experienced, has more knowledge and less experience, and a jnAni has all knowledge and experience of it.

• Just as even a jnAni has an exterior, an interface, to the world, mokSha has an exterior, interface, which is dharma. Dharma itself has an interface which is karma--action.

• The interior/core of dharma is shAnta svaraikyam--peaceful harmony; of mokSha is satchidAnanda--blissfully conscious existence.

• Dharma is cyclic, hence the dharma-chakra, through the three worlds bhu-bhuva-suvaha; mokSha is sthita-prajna--abiding in Consciousness, here and now and for ever.

• Dharma is the trunk, branches, leaves, flowers and fruits of the tree of life; mokSha is the root. Since this root itself branches out through AkAsha--space, in all directions and forms the core experience of mokSha as AUM--the primordial sound of silence, the Tamizh poet BhArati said, "I saw vedAnta as a tree standing upside down", a tree whose foliage is on earth and the roots are in space.

• The tree of human body has a similar make-up with its roots up at the sahasrAra chakra of the brain.

• bhakti--devotion and love of God, is the interface between karma (which in turn is the interface to dharma) and jnAna (the interface to mokSha). We dream in the state of bhakti with brief experiences of the turIya state of jnAna, grounding ourselves in the jAgrat--wakeful, state of dharma.

It seems that dharma and mokSha are like a pair of Siamese twins, glued together by bhakti.

[atanu]

namaste everyone.

I have no doubt or dispute that mokSha is the only goal of life, but I did wonder as to why dharma is equated with mokSha. Perhaps the reasons could be:
---
It seems that dharma and mokSha are like a pair of Siamese twins, glued together by bhakti.

Namaste saidevoji

I agree about dharma. However, I understand that the Supreme itself is every thing and is every path. But, nyAsa, the full deposition of manAsa in Brahman, named as OM is Brahman itself.



ekonaashiititamo.anuvaakaH . MahanArayana

--------tasmaatsatyaM parama.n vadanti .. 2., -------tasmaattapaH parama.n vadanti .. 3.., --------tasmaaddamaH parama.n vadanti .. 4.., --------tasmaachchhamaH parama.n vadanti .. 5.., --------tasmaaddaanaM parama.n vadanti .. 6.., --------tasmaaddharmaM parama.n vadanti .. 7.., ---------tasmaat prajananaM parama.n vadanti .. 8.., ----------tasmaadagniin parama.n vadanti .. 9.., ---------tasmaadagnihotraM parama.n vadanti .. 10.., -------- tasmaad yaj~naM parama.n vadanti .. 11.., ---------tasmaadmaanasaM parama.n vadanti .. 12..,


nyaasa ityaahurmaniishhiNo brahmaaNaM brahmaa vishvaH katamaH svayambhuuH prajaapatiH sa.nvatsara iti .. 13..
-----
omityaatmaana.n yu~njiita . etadvai mahopanishhada.n devaanaa.n guhyam.h . ya eva.n veda brahmaNo mahimaanamaapnoti tasmaadbrahmaNo mahimaanamityupanishhat.h .. 18..


And in this connection, in order to establish the conection to the ultimate goal, it may be appropriate to re-iterate again;




BU IV, 4, 23. --- All that matters is to know the nature of Brahman. One who knows is untainted by evil action.

CU VIII, 5 ------ He who departs from this world without having found the atman and true desires will lack freedom in every world.


To rephrase, IMO, the dharma, danam, satyam, tapas, yajnam, manas, etc. are all the equal branches of the Supreme, who resides equally in all these branches. But the goal is to know the resident who resides in all these residences.

Om Namah Shivaya

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu.

I totally agree with your rephrasing, but aren't dAnam, satyam, tapas, yajnam, manas, etc., only different forms and names of dharma, just as mokSha is a different name for brahman (a name that aligns with the state)?

Yes, the sap--rasa, of the Tree is brahman; it is amRtam--sap of immortality; and dharma, coupled with bhakti, gives us the capability to taste that sap, while jnAna ensures that our very nature is that sap.

No doubt the goal is the jnAnam about brahman, but dharma with bhakti purifies and expands the vessel in us, so the goal of jnAnam enters and fills us with the bliss of brahman.

[atanu]

namaste Atanu.

I totally agree with your rephrasing, but aren't dAnam, satyam, tapas, yajnam, manas, etc., only different forms and names of dharma, just as mokSha is a different name for brahman (a name that aligns with the state)?

Namaste saidevoji

(That depends on understanding again. I remind that mere sleeping, eating and copulatiing was compared to the exact destination and dharma.)

I agree that all terms mean dharma, but, the verses cited say dharma param, danam param, tapa param, satyam param. The verse does not say satyam dharma, tapa dharma, danam dharma----.

I hope i am able to make the point. The common intelligent substratum is the primal purusha. Shankara is very clear on this. Dharma and Karma are helpful yet not the causative of moksha (other schools differ). I argue that dharma-karma are inert and in themselves have no intelligence to bestow fruits.

Further, Shri Krishna teaches: 'sarva dharma ------surrender to me' And while we are talking of the ultimate goal, i will like to reiterate what Ganeshprasadji cited:

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

(15.04)




No doubt the goal is the jnAnam about brahman, but dharma with bhakti purifies and expands the vessel in us, so the goal of jnAnam enters and fills us with the bliss of brahman.

No doubt about it.

Yet, I also believe: "One thing I have sufficiently understood today, however, is this: the question is not one reaching the goal but the goal coming on to the individual."

On this, I resort to Shri Ramana Maharshi. He teaches that there are two freedoms to individuals. One can meditate and eventually enquire "Whence I am?" or one can simply surrender. The former path many, including me, find difficult.

I understand that we both are saying the same thing. I just wanted to emphasise that dharma is not the common substratum but the Primal Purusha is. Yudhistir, dharmarAj, gambled and still being alligned to dharma was saved by the Lord.

I think that you will not disagree to this slight change of the perspective.

Regards


Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~


namasté


A 'goal' suggests the attainment of something one does not have...that is why I have suggested 'aim'. I am not inferrring my offer is superior to any other member's offer, just a different POV for the conversation.

Here is my orientation on this matter, perhaps there is an ounce of insight in it worthy of consideration:

We are already an expression of the Divine , our SELF resides in us - where do we need to go to get it ? to achieve it , to reach this goal?

As I see it, if we agree to the notion of unfoldment = goal, then I think I can concur. Yet because we need a 'process' (upāya ) to unfold
this goal one thinks we are going from here-to-there and that suggests an end; and this end is attributable to a finish line a ~goal~.

Looking at it another way I think I can state my POV in one word - pratyabhijñā , to re-recognize , remember , know , understand ;
to come to one's self , recover consciousness ; regaining knowledge or recognition of the identify of oneself with the Supreme. Any thing less as I see it may be an interesting attainment, but a missed opportunity none the less.

I look to one beacon of Truth, the Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (from 1941-1953) , svāmī brahmānaṇda sarasvatī who offers these wise words:
To get a human body is a rare thing, make use of it. There are 4 million kinds of lives which a soul ( ātman) can gather.
After that one gets a chance to be human, to get a human body. Therefore, one should not waste this chance. Every second in human life is valuable. If you don’t value this, then you have nothing in hand and you will weep in the end.

Because you are human, God has given you power to think and decide what is good and bad. Therefore, you can do the best possible kind of action. You should never consider yourself weak or a fallen creature.
Whatever may have happened up till now may be because you didn't know, but now be careful... after getting a human body, if you don’t reach God, then you have sold a diamond at the price of spinach.


praṇām

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~
namasté

A 'goal' suggests the attainment of something one does not have...---.

Looking at it another way I think I can state my POV in one word - pratyabhijñā , to re-recognize , remember , know , understand ;

to come to one's self , recover consciousness ; regaining knowledge or recognition of the identify of oneself with the Supreme. Any thing less as I see it may be an interesting attainment, but a missed opportunity none the less.


praṇām

Ditto. To uncover the dross over Gold by polishing to reveal its natural state.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste Friends





Brihadaraynaka U.
III-viii-10: He, O Gargi, who in this world, without knowing this Immutable, offers oblations in the fire, performs sacrifices and undergoes austerities even for many thousand years, finds all such acts but perishable; he, O Gargi, who departs from this world without knowing this Immutable, is miserable. But he, O Gargi, who departs from this world after knowing this Immutable, is a knower of Brahman.





All beings desire happiness always, happiness without a tinge of sorrow. At the same time everybody loves himself best. The cause for love is only happiness. So, that happiness must lie in one. Further that happiness is daily experienced by everyone in sleep, when there is no mind. To attain that natural happiness one must know oneself.

Shri Ramana Maharshi





The above is a very simple and compelling logic that is derived directly from Vedantic teaching such as Rishi Yajnavalkya to his wife Maitrei. This simple view is complicated by some philosophy, notably from western shores, for example, philosopher Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche or Kant. The former vehemently tried to teach (while upholding upanishads as greatest teachings as opposed to Bible etc.) that the goal of gaining utter Supremacy over all others is the ultimate goal. Nietzsche could be partially correct, since the ultimate goal of every one is to wrest control over the whimsical Prakriti. Yet that again is striving towards unadulterated happiness.

As I understand, Vedanta gives the valuable pointer that happiness is not to be had in the limited. Unadulterated happiness cannot be had at the expense of another and also at the expense of the Universe. The most beautiful teaching of Upanishad is reflected in a series of verses in Chandogya U. that expound the meaning of Agnihotra. I cite the last three verses:




Chandogya

V-xxiii-1 Then, when he offers the fifth oblation, he should offer it with the Mantra ‘Svaha to Udana’; thereby Udana is satisfied.


V-xxiii-2: Udana being satisfied, the skin is satisfied; the skin being satisfied, the air is satisfied; the air being satisfied, Akasa is satisfied; Akasa being satisfied, whatever is under the air and Akasa is satisfied. Through its satisfaction the eater himself is satisfied. (He is satisfied) also with offspring, cattle, food, lustre and the holy effulgence born of sacred wisdom.


V-xxiv-1: If anyone, without knowing this, offers the Agnihotra, it would be just a man removing the live embers and pouring the oblation on the ashes.



The verses are beautiful as well capable of turning a mind 180 degrees. What is this about: the skin is satisfied; the skin being satisfied, the air is satisfied; the air being satisfied, Akasa is satisfied; Akasa being satisfied, whatever is under the air and Akasa is satisfied. ...............???? The happiness of one is not derived from happiness of the surrounding, but the whole Universe is happy for the happy person (how idiotic some may say).:)


IMO, it will actually be idiotic to forget the simple goal of finding the happy Self, especially when the upanishad has been revealed.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Atman]

Unlimited bliss seems to be the goal of most- but unfortunately many do not get it- and even then, there are many levels of unlimited bliss, and the quality and knowledge would therefore be far steeper.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Unlimited bliss seems to be the goal of most- but unfortunately many do not get it- and even then, there are many levels of unlimited bliss, and the quality and knowledge would therefore be far steeper.


I read of this unlimited bliss often. It would seem with one becoming full with brahman the initial experience would bring one to overwhelming joy, yet would it remain? I have heard that it does.

It seems if one achieves the fullness of mokṣa and knows of this vimṛtyu ( not liable to death) there would be this aspect of joy.

praṇām

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Unlimited bliss--unadulterated happiness--is eventually attained when the mind is always in happiness and at peace. A shloka in shrImad bhAgavatam says:

sadA santuShTa-manasaH sarvAn shivamayA dishaH |
sharkarA-kandakAdibhyO yathOpAnat-padam shivam ||7.15.17||

"For a mind which is always (happy and) at peace, everything from wherever is auspicious; just like it is with a person who has sandals under his feet, happily walks over a path of pebbles and thorns."

Life in this world is always full of pebbles and thorns. The feet that wear the sandals of dharma passes over them easily, and such journey brings satisfaction, happiness and peace of mind. The mind at peace looks inward to sustain its peace and happiness and finds the sat-chit-Ananda shivam of the Self.

The terms 'tuShTa' and 'tuShTi' mean 'satisfaction', so santoSha/santuShTi is delight/happiness born out of satisfaction, which is felt in the mind. A mind which has such happiness sadA--always, begins to look inward to sustain it.

[Atman]

namaste everyone.

Unlimited bliss--unadulterated happiness--is eventually attained when the mind is always in happiness and at peace. A shloka in shrImad bhAgavatam says:

sadA santuShTa-manasaH sarvAn shivamayA dishaH |
sharkarA-kandakAdibhyO yathOpAnat-padam shivam ||7.15.17||

"For a mind which is always (happy and) at peace, everything from wherever is auspicious; just like it is with a person who has sandals under his feet, happily walks over a path of pebbles and thorns."

Life in this world is always full of pebbles and thorns. The feet that wear the sandals of dharma passes over them easily, and such journey brings satisfaction, happiness and peace of mind. The mind at peace looks inward to sustain its peace and happiness and finds the sat-chit-Ananda shivam of the Self.

The terms 'tuShTa' and 'tuShTi' mean 'satisfaction', so santoSha/santuShTi is delight/happiness born out of satisfaction, which is felt in the mind. A mind which has such happiness sadA--always, begins to look inward to sustain it.

Yes- but this is still a prelimerary stage- compared with brahman this happiness would appear 'tasteless,' and what to speak of even higher levels like sada-shivaloka and the spiritual world.

[Onkara]

Very good thread!

Just a small opinion to add if I may...

Personal experience is bliss (ananda) is already here, what happens is that one looks outwards rather than inwards, as Saidevo explains beautifully above.

I would say that there cannot be levels of bliss, in the way that there are not levels of consciousness, as to assume such levels, assumes that there is something beyond which experiences those levels. The point is that we already know that Brahman is all there is. Brahman is sat-chit-anada so the ananda is already here (in the apparent you and me), it is always the same (not a duality of levels) and can be know whilst living.

The problems is that we change through the day, but what changes is not ananda (Brahman) itself, but that which obscures ananda and over powers our minds; making us look outwards for answers and pleasure. Obscuring factors include worries, fear and ego engaged in actions which require a sense of investment by you and me.

Also we assume that Brahman will be a mind-blasting experience, but yet we are told that all this is Brahman already, so we are subject to overlook it in the search for the ultimate experience of bliss. We also may feel that we cannot have It now, as then the search will logically come to an end, then what do we do with all that knowledge we have acquired? So we flirt with It too afraid to submit to It; this too is maya.

:)

[Atman]

Very good thread!

Just a small opinion to add if I may...


I would say that there cannot be levels of bliss, in the way that there are not levels of consciousness
:)

I must respectfully disagree, I thought years ago as a child Indra's heaven was the only place, but as I matured and deepened my reading, I realised that there are many lokas above Indra, furthermore, life is not eternal there, still- that happiness cannot be compared with the King who is the ruler of the whole world!

[atanu]

Very good thread!

Just a small opinion to add if I may...

Personal experience is bliss (ananda) is already here, what happens is that one looks outwards rather than inwards, as Saidevo explains beautifully above.

I would say that there cannot be levels of bliss, in the way that there are not levels of consciousness, as to assume such levels, assumes that there is something beyond which experiences those levels. The point is that we already know that Brahman is all there is. Brahman is sat-chit-anada so the ananda is already here (in the apparent you and me), it is always the same (not a duality of levels) and can be know whilst living.

:)

Namaste Snip

Scripture supports you. Shankara in his commentary on the following verses of Brihadaraynaka states that the bliss of liberation is not simply measurable. Yet, uptill attainment of Brahmaloka, the joy is said to be of different grades.




Brihadaraynaka


IV-iii-33: He who is perfect of physique and prosperous among men, the ruler of others, and most lavishly supplied with all human enjoyments, represents greatest joy among men. This human joy multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the manes who have won that world of theirs. The joy of these manes who have won that world multiplied a hundred times makes one unit joy in the world of the celestial minstrels. This joy in the world of the celestial minstrels multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the gods by action – those who have attained their godhead by their actions. This joy of the gods by action multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the gods by birth, as also of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This joy of the gods by birth multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of Prajapati (Viraj), as well as one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This joy in the world of Prajapati multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of Brahman (Hiranyagarbha), as well as of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This indeed is the supreme bliss. This is the state of Brahman, O Emperor, said Yajnavalkya. ‘I give you a thousand (cows), sir. Please instruct me further about liberation itself’. At this Yajnavalkya was afraid that the intelligent Emperor was constraining him to finish with all his conclusions.


Note that the description of grades of happiness stops at Brahmaloka, just before attainment of liberation, which by logic and by definition and by teachings of gurus cannot have any grade whatsoever. It is not measurable either, because its nature itself is bliss.


Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[Onkara]

Dear Atanu ji
Thank you to you and Atman for the feedback on the post. I am not very familiar with the lokas and Brihadaraynaka, so I have learnt from your posts! :)

Mandukya III-47 (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/mandukya.html?page=2). “That highest Bliss exists in one’s own Self. It is calm, identical with liberation, indescribable, and unborn. Since It is one with the unborn knowable (Brahman), the knowers of Brahman speak of It as the Omniscient (Brahman).”

[atanu]

Dear Atanu ji
Thank you to you and Atman for the feedback on the post. I am not very familiar with the lokas and Brihadaraynaka, so I have learnt from your posts! :)

Mandukya III-47 (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/mandukya.html?page=2). “That highest Bliss exists in one’s own Self. It is calm, identical with liberation, indescribable, and unborn. Since It is one with the unborn knowable (Brahman), the knowers of Brahman speak of It as the Omniscient (Brahman).”

Namaste Snip

Yes, all scripture speak so. Loka is a dualistic existential plane yet. Brahmaloka is equated with the world of Hiranyagarbha, which is equivalent of taijjassa state of Mandukya U.. From reading of Brihadaraynaka passage cited above, along with Shankara's explanation, we see that Liberation is a step or more ahead of abidance in the world of Hiranyagarbha, where the gradation of bliss stops.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Atman]

Namaste Snip

Yes, all scripture speak so. Loka is a dualistic existential plane yet. Brahmaloka is equated with the world of Hiranyagarbha, which is equivalent of taijjassa state of Mandukya U.. From reading of Brihadaraynaka passage cited above, along with Shankara's explanation, we see that Liberation is a step or more ahead of abidance in the world of Hiranyagarbha, where the gradation of bliss stops.

Om Namah Shivaya

Actually, there is even more- above the brahman is sada-shivaloka- and this bliss is far greater than the infinite brahman- devotees there spit at impersonal liberation is disgust- still, even grander than this is the spiritual planets in Vishnu-loka, which is infinitely greater than brahmic bliss in terms of quality and quantity!

[isavasya]

Actually, there is even more- above the brahman is sada-shivaloka- and this bliss is far greater than the infinite brahman- devotees there spit at impersonal liberation is disgust- still, even grander than this is the spiritual planets in Vishnu-loka, which is infinitely greater than brahmic bliss in terms of quality and quantity!


You are confused , there are no two and three types of Infinity. Say infinity A of brahman, infinity B of vishnu, Infinity C of shiva, infinity is one and same, there is no greater or bigger or smaller infinity. Another thing ananda should not be tranlated as bliss, it should be translated as peace, calmness , shanti. And there is nothing called grandeur in state of moksha. Next are we going to have Islamic heaven ? All these definitions make moksha a product, that is why I say, moksha should not be a Goal, moksha is cessation of other goals, a state which only comes to great sages, others who claim it are just taking moksha as another product of bliss and grandeur etc etc and will never get that moksha.

So what is moksha ? Moksha is Asat chit anand or shantam shivam advaitam.

Actual meaning of Asat is unmenifest, which is form of brahman/shiva.

And there is no loka called sadashiva loka, shiva himself is moksha swaroop, so he doesnot has any planet, he is one without a second. One who reaches shiva, is one who gets moksha.






What is the goal of life?

The answers will surely vary, depending on the nature, aspirations, experience, and knowledge of the respondents. But is the true goal many? Different for different people?



Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste atanu ji,


"As long as even a single dog goes hungry in my country , the sole aim of my religion is to feed him."
- Swami Vivekanand

[atanu]

Actual meaning of Asat is unmenifest, which is form of brahman/shiva.



Where is it written that actual meaning of asat in unmanifest? Where is it written that Shiva is asat?

Shiva or Brahman is said to be neither sat nor asat but never asat.

Om Namah Shivaya

[isavasya]

Where is it written that actual meaning of asat in unmanifest? Where is it written that Shiva is asat?

I have derived it logically from various shruti statements.

To believe that asat means non-existence or nothingness is a false belief on part of some people, if that is the case then sanatan dharm will become Buddhism. We have so many statements from vedas, upanishads, which says, sat comes from asat, so to believe that existence comes from non-existence is absurdity.

असद्वा इदमग्र आसीत् । ततो वै सदजायत
(taittiriya upanishad 2.7.1)


In the beginning all this was but the Unmanifested (Brahman).From that emerged the manifested.
(Asat was this verily in
the beginning)


"Asat eva agre asit” (chandogya up 3.19)

This universe was at first but unmenifest.

After that it says, 'then it became existent” from asat came the 'sat '


Now from both chandogya and tait up , we come to know that asat gives rise to sat, so the primary and ever existent form of brahman is unmenifest.

Now to say that brahman is sat chit anand is to compromise the position of advaita, and go on to believe in parinaam vada, we know that menifest universe is mithya and temporary and according to vivartavada there is no question of nirvakaar brahman ever changing it's form.


by the way, there are some teachers who have translated asat as unmenifest.



Shiva or Brahman is said to be neither sat nor asat but never asat.

Yes you are right, we can say that shiva is above both form, nasadiya sukta supports this. I believe shantam shivam advaitam summarizes Shiva the best. Shivoham consciousness is what is supporter of everything.

[atanu]

(Asat was this verily in
the beginning)


Where is Chandogya Up. 3.19? It should be 3.19.1, which says that in the beginning the Universe was asat. And that is the point of Advaita darshana.

Kindly read all the purports again. Asat was THIS (and the Universe) in the beginning. Only THAT breathed on its own. The BEING was not ASAT.

If there was only asat, then there will never be sadyota. All these verses only prove that the manifest universe is not eternal, it was not there and it will not be there; and eventually it is asat -non-existent. Only the Sat -- who manifests as sadyota is the truth.


Yes you are right, we can say that shiva is above both form, nasadiya sukta supports this. I believe shantam shivam advaitam summarizes Shiva the best. Shivoham consciousness is what is supporter of everything.

Nasadiya sukta says "Neither sat nor asat". It does not say that in the beginning 'both' were there. Other scriptures also say "Neither a being nor non-being" and/or "neither conscious nor unconscious". The meaning of nasadiya is THAT WHICH IS NOT ASAT.

Asat never was and never will be. In the meantime there is Maya, which makes the Universe and Ego to appear as sat.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Satapatha Brahmana Part IV (SBE43), Julius Eggeling tr. [1897], at sacred-texts.com

THIRD BRÂHMANA.

10:5:3:11. Verily, in the beginning this (universe) was, as it were, neither non-existent nor existent; in the beginning this, indeed, as it were, existed and did not exist: there was then only that Mind.

----------------------
Brihadarayanaka U.

na eva iha kim.h chana agre AsIt.h
mR^ityunA eva idam.h AvR^itam.h AsIt.h ashanAyayA ashanAyA hi mR^ityuH (Brihad. I.2.1)

I-ii-1: There was nothing whatsoever here in the beginning. It was covered only by Death (Hiranyagarbha), or Hunger, for hunger is death. He created the mind, thinking, ‘Let me have a mind’.
--------------------------------------

So, there was 'no thing', but there was the It, covered by death-desire. The primeval MIND was always existent and thus it is sat. But because of absence of any boundary conditions, the Universe did not exist -- just as it does not exist in deep sleep. So, to say that Shiva is asat is not supported by any scripture. Are we Buddhists?

Om Namah Shivaya

[isavasya]

What you have quoted from nasadiya sukta is right, however regarding nasadiya sukta I said shiiva is 'above' both asat and sat, and I did not shiva is both asat and sat. My initial verse was from taitriya upanishad, i will like to quote 2.7.1 again.


II-vii-1: In the beginning all this was but the Unmanifested (Brahman). From that emerged the manifested. (tait up 2.7.1) Translated by Swami Gambhirananda - Published by Advaita Ashram, Kolkatta


Asat va idam agra aasit. Tato vai sadajayata (tait up 2.7.1)


asat was this in begining and from that came sat .


Now does asat means unmenifest here ? Note, some people translate asat as nothingness or non-esixtence, now existence can not come from non-existence, but menifest can and does comes from unmenifest. So in context of tait up, asat does mean unmenifest, asat can have other meanings at other places.


Nasadiya sukta is complex thing, for me somewhere that talks of ishwara and somewhere brahman/shivoham consciounsess, we should be careful in analyzing that, I will bring a seaparate thread for nasadiya sukta. Let us not bring that here.



So, to say that Shiva is asat is not supported by any scripture. Are we Buddhists?


You might say I gave a wrong interpretation of the meaning of asat, but questioning me of saying shiva as non-existent is twisting my statement. my claim is shiva/ brahman is unmenifest , whatever is manifest is mithya.

[atanu]

Now does asat means unmenifest here ? Note, some people translate asat as nothingness or non-esixtence, now existence can not come from non-existence, but menifest can and does comes from unmenifest.

Dear Isa

I think, you still do not get the purport. Who says that existence springs from non-existence? When you say Shiva is asat, then you only lead to such a conclusion. I hope you will be able resolve this doubt soon. Just remember that Veda says: The Truth (sat) is One. Also kindly check the dictionary meaning of asat and avaykta.

Sat never becomes asat and asat never becomes sat. That is the fundamental rule. You may read Gita verse and also Mandukya Karika on this.

What is asat (non-existent) is Universe as a thing on its own, separate from the PRIMEVAL MIND that generates it within (and also withdraws it within). Upanishads impress upon us that the Universe is NO THING. ONLY THAT PRIMEVAL MIND EXISTED, EXISTS, WILL EXIST.


Om Namah Shivaya

[isavasya]

Namaste atanu ji,

Thanks for the corrections, perhaps be I got the meaning of one word wrong, however I was also trying to say the same thing, that is


Upanishads impress upon us that the Universe is NO THING. ONLY THAT PRIMEVAL MIND EXISTED, EXISTS, WILL EXIST.

[Atman]

[quote=isavasya;47901]Another thing ananda should not be tranlated as bliss, it should be translated as peace, calmness , shanti. And there is nothing called grandeur in state of moksha. Next are we going to have Islamic heaven ? All these definitions make moksha a product, that is why I say, moksha should not be a Goal, moksha is cessation of other goals, a state which only comes to great sages, others who claim it are just taking moksha as another product of bliss and grandeur etc etc and will never get that moksha.
Actually you are wrong- ananda means bliss, and yes- there are many stages of bliss- otherwise everyone would all either be on the same platform or be unhappy- actually there are so many levels of consciousness- going all the way up to Krsna, it is unfanthomable. There is a sadashiva-loka, please study the vedas and scriptures properly, and as for infinity, there are still different stages of bliss- within infinity it is possible to have different dimensions!

[atanu]

---Actually you are wrong- ananda means bliss, and yes- there are many stages of bliss- otherwise everyone would all either be on the same platform or be unhappy- actually there are so many levels of consciousness- going all the way up to Krsna, it is unfanthomable. There is a sadashiva-loka, please study the vedas and scriptures properly, and as for infinity, there are still different stages of bliss- within infinity it is possible to have different dimensions!

Namaste Atman

Kindly show from Vedas or Upanishads that there is a Sadashiva loka and that there is a way going all the way up to Krsna --unfathomable.

OTOH, the following was shown from scripture:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=47872&postcount=27

And

Mandukya III-47 (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/mandukya.html?page=2). “That highest Bliss exists in one’s own Self. It is calm, identical with liberation, indescribable, and unborn. Since It is one with the unborn knowable (Brahman), the knowers of Brahman speak of It as the Omniscient (Brahman).”

It is not the Gaudiya Perspective thread that one can say whatever one fancies.

Om Namah Shivaya

[isavasya]

and as for infinity, there are still different stages of bliss- within infinity it is possible to have different dimensions!


‘In which one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else, that is infinite. But that in which one sees something else, hears something else, understands something else, is the finite. The Infinite is immortal, the finite is mortal.'(Chandogya upanishad , VII-xxiv-1)


Infinity is partless, brahman is part-less. That is what Sruti says. There are no different dimensions in infinity. You have read something other than vedas.



devotees there spit at impersonal liberation is disgust


Well then the people of such lokas need some treatment, and the place needs to be cleaned of the spit.



There is a sadashiva-loka, please study the vedas and scriptures properly
I have studied and keep on studying vedas, the shruti says,

When ignorance is dispelled there is no day, no night, neither being nor non-being ; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri -and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.

When one gets moksha, it is consciousness auspiciousness and peace which remains and not finite things. There is no loka called sadashiva loka, upanishad says, shiva = Moksha, moksha =shantam shivam advaitam

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu and everyone else.

Interesting discussions have flown under this thread, with points and counterpoints.

• Atanu, in terms of your post no.12 giving an extensive quote from the MahAnArAyaNa upaniShad, I agree with you that dharma is the sAmAnya-upAya--common means, and saMnyAsa is the parama-upAya--ultimate/supreme means, for a sAdhaka who seeks mokSha.

• My stress on dharma was for the sAmAnyas among us (which most are) who are unlikely to be saMnyAsins in life. However, it is understood, that only with the prayatna--persistent effort, at dhyAna-vichAra--meditation and inquiry, only which would in turn bring in Ishvara anugraha--divine grace, that a sAdhaka can hope to have a peek at and try to sustain the bliss of mokSha, here and now, and in the hereafter.

• As Ganesha Prasad has pointed out in post no.13, quoting GItA, a goal is where there is no coming back, so mokSha is that goal; and as he said quoting Shankara's Viveka ChUDAmaNi, that since this human birth is most difficult to obtain, it would be suicidal not to attempt attainment of Self-Realization in this birth. And Yajvan has stressed it further in post no.18, quoting the ShankarAchArya of Jyotirmath, with the diamond-spinach analogy.

• Members also expressed different views about the nature and grades of bliss and happiness, with a common consent that it is based on peace--shAnti. Let us attempt to obtain more understanding about the nature of the bliss that is equated with the Self.

• Sanskrit language has a plethora of synonyms that denote and connote gradations of happiness, joy, pleasure and bliss.

‣ For the word happienss, V.S.Apte in his 'The Student's English-Sanskrit Dictionary' enumerates these Sanskrit words: sukhaM, saukhyaM, AnandaM, dhanyatA, harShaH, kRtArthA, sharman, saMtoShaH, nivRti, shrIH, sampada, puNyodayaH, kalyANaM, bhadraM, kShemaH, shivaM, svAsthyaM, kushalaM.

‣ For bliss, he lists out: paramasukhaM, sukhAtishayaH, praharShaH, dhanyatA, antyatsukhaM.

‣ For joy, he enumerates only: AnandaM, harShaH, utsavaH.

‣ For pleasure, he lists out: sukhaM, saM-pari-toShaH, AnandaM, prIti, saukhyaM, tuShTi, modaH, ullAdaH, harShaH, mudA, ruchi, ichChA, abhilAShaH, kAmaH

We are interested here in happiness and bliss. How much happiness does qualify for being a state of bliss? A peep into their synonyms gives an idea:

• sukhaM chiefly means 'ease, comfort, pleasure, prosperity'. He is personified as a child of dharma and siddhi in MArkaNDeya purANam (MWD).

‣ Although this term associates with material happiness, there is a proverb in Tamil that says, "summA iruppadhE sukham"--"to be inactive is sukham", which denotes spiritual happiness.

‣ Therefore, bliss is paramasukhaM--supreme sukham; sukhAtishayaH--excellent sukhaM; and antya-sukham--sukham which is ultimate/last/final in place and time.

• dhanyatA means fortune, good luck, opulence; it is derived from dhanam--wealth.

‣ When associated with bliss, jnAna--knowledge, becomes the fortune and Ishvara anugraha--divine grace, becomes the luck. Adi ShankarAchArya sings the glory of dhanya in his 'dhanyAShTakam'.

• Although harShaH connotes joy, pleasure and happiness, it is associated with ardent desire and lustfulness.

‣ However, praharShaH means extreme joy, rapture, thrill of delight, hence is associated with bliss.

• Additionally, AnandaM denotes happiness and paramAnandaM denotes supreme happiness which is bliss. The term Anandamaya koSha is the blissful nature of our kAraNa sharIra--causal body.

So what is the difference between happiness and bliss?

• So long as happiness is born of activity, feeling, emotion, and thought, it is only material. When that happiness becomes a state of existence, of peaceful inaction, it enters the portals of bliss. In that state of bliss, as our shAstras and jnAnis say, the jIvAtman is merged in the paramAtman--Self, in the fourth state of turIya, and yet is aware of the experience of ultimate reality--sat, universal consciousness--chit, and supreme happiness--Ananda, which pervade and dominate the jnAni's other states of existence as apparent to the world.

*****

We have left out joy and pleasure because they are more of emotional expressions than states of mind. Here I am reminded of the difference between joy and pleasure, so beautifully expressed by W.H.Davies in his poem:

Joy and Pleasure
by William Henry Davies

Now, joy is born of parents poor,
And pleasure of our richer kind;
Though pleasure's free, she cannot sing
As sweet a song as joy confined.

Pleasure's a Moth, that sleeps by day
And dances by false glare at night;
But Joy's a Butterfly, that loves
To spread its wings in Nature's light.

Joy's like a Bee that gently sucks
Away on blossoms its sweet hour;
But pleasure's like a greedy Wasp,
That plums and cherries would devour.

Joy's like a Lark that lives alone,
Whose ties are very strong, though few;
But Pleasure like a Cuckoo roams,
Makes much acquaintance, no friends true.

Joy from her heart doth sing at home,
With little care if others hear;
But pleasure then is cold and dumb,
And sings and laughs with strangers near.

(http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/joy-and-pleasure/)

[NayaSurya]

That is a beautiful poem. So wonderfully true.
I hope you do not mind the fool's input.


This one, has always been internally happy. Not from things, places...but from understanding the life is a gift...a precious chance to advance.

Recently, I asked how can we work towards this, more important goal we should all seek, if we are still deep within the gross physical world being a parent.

The one who tried to answer this question was very young, they have no great responsibilities...no family which relies upon them.

They say...'move forward it won't harm anything.'


This state is one, unlike any other. It's the great ocean of Truth. Once you put even your toe within it, you become wet. Once wet you can not go back to dry land....nor would you want to.

But, now wet, you try to continue to maintain the things which once seemed so important. The mundane activities of Autumn festivals, grocery shopping. The grand parties and celebrations you once supported for your entire extended family...traditions everyone awaits each year...they too fall away.

You can not recoil from such bliss that the Truth provides...yet also can not deny the younger children, an equally blessed childhood. How do we reconcile?

I think of our haunted house every year. In our very large garage we clear everything away and hang large plastic walls to make rooms and coridoors. Then I spend two months, painstakingly decorating these as a haunted mansion, castle..cemetary. Our entire extended family comes to be actors in scenes inside the haunted house. We open it for free for our entire community...I hand out glow bracelets and handfulls of candy at the end. The chilly nights end with dancing and singing together upon the leaves of the great trees upon our lawn.

This is the time I begin to draw up the plans, purchase the hundreds of dollars in decorations. But, I can not. In fact I hate that I spent 20 years wasted upon such endevors. The family thinks I am broken...what is wrong with the sister, aunt? She once held parties where every room was filled with decoration. Every person was wrapped in such decadence. Now, she has grown silent and is contemplating parcelling out these things and giving them away?

Wasn't this the goal of life? To gather pretty things, enjoy the family?

The affected heart cries...no. New eyes see the world here...see the ridiculousness of it, and I. Is disgusted and ashamed by this previous ignorant state of dellusion.

The push to make the affected one, 'normal' again, is on.

But, the box is broken...the pieces no longer can be repaired.

For our goal is liberation and not seeking it would be to squander this precious time...

But, the other goal is to see the children raised equally, without making them feel that they were lacking from their siblings.

The goal in life is such a subjective thing. I realize that my primary goal can not be Moksha. It is in fact, a very mundane goal of keeping my family stable while I become very wet in the ocean.

Sometimes the goal fluctuates throughout our life.

My goal right now is to appear dry, for the sake of my children. But, to continue to walk directly into that ocean until I dissolve like bubbles.

Beloved Siva willing these two things coincide.

[atanu]

This state is one, unlike any other. It's the great ocean of Truth. Once you put even your toe within it, you become wet. Once wet you can not go back to dry land....nor would you want to.

But, now wet, you try to continue to maintain the things which once seemed so important. The mundane activities of Autumn festivals, grocery shopping. The grand parties and celebrations you once supported for your entire extended family...traditions everyone awaits each year...they too fall away.

You can not recoil from such bliss that the Truth provides...yet also can not deny the younger children, an equally blessed childhood. How do we reconcile?

I think of our haunted house every year. In our very large garage we clear everything away and hang large plastic walls to make rooms and coridoors. Then I spend two months, painstakingly decorating these as a haunted mansion, castle..cemetary. Our entire extended family comes to be actors in scenes inside the haunted house. We open it for free for our entire community...I hand out glow bracelets and handfulls of candy at the end. The chilly nights end with dancing and singing together upon the leaves of the great trees upon our lawn.

This is the time I begin to draw up the plans, purchase the hundreds of dollars in decorations. But, I can not. In fact I hate that I spent 20 years wasted upon such endevors. The family thinks I am broken...what is wrong with the sister, aunt? She once held parties where every room was filled with decoration. Every person was wrapped in such decadence. Now, she has grown silent and is contemplating parcelling out these things and giving them away?

Wasn't this the goal of life? To gather pretty things, enjoy the family?

The affected heart cries...no. New eyes see the world here...see the ridiculousness of it, and I. Is disgusted and ashamed by this previous ignorant state of dellusion.

The push to make the affected one, 'normal' again, is on.

But, the box is broken...the pieces no longer can be repaired.

For our goal is liberation and not seeking it would be to squander this precious time...

But, the other goal is to see the children raised equally, without making them feel that they were lacking from their siblings.

The goal in life is such a subjective thing. I realize that my primary goal can not be Moksha. It is in fact, a very mundane goal of keeping my family stable while I become very wet in the ocean.

Sometimes the goal fluctuates throughout our life.

My goal right now is to appear dry, for the sake of my children. But, to continue to walk directly into that ocean until I dissolve like bubbles.

Beloved Siva willing these two things coincide.

Namaste nayasurya

You have poetically and beautifully summarised the dilemma faced by me, especially, in the realm of profession, which appears cut-throat and is abrasive like sand paper. This restlessness, discontentment, and a sense of 'something not smooth' bothers me when i cannot do sadhana because of work exigency.

But when the goal taught in upanishads and by the Guru: "Know the Self, which is the only joy, only peace, and only permanence", resurfaces in my mind, peace reigns again. When I am able to leave the gross body and only as subtle mind prostrate and dissolve in the infinite peace -- albeit for small periods -- on returning, i know that our worries are all false.

But this certitude is lost in absence of sadhana and meditation.

Om Namah Shivaya

[NayaSurya]

Beloved Atanu, you describe wholly my beloved husband's dilemma, he also has these thoughts.

I send a wish, a prayer for you, and all others in this situation, that you may also have your time of work and submersion into the great bliss be coinciding.

[kallol]

Namaste nayasurya

You have poetically and beautifully summarised the dilemma faced by me, especially, in the realm of profession, which appears cut-throat and is abrasive like sand paper. This restlessness, discontentment, and a sense of 'something not smooth' bothers me when i cannot do sadhana because of work exigency.

But when the goal taught in upanishads and by the Guru: "Know the Self, which is the only joy, only peace, and only permanence", resurfaces in my mind, peace reigns again. When I am able to leave the gross body and only as subtle mind prostrate and dissolve in the infinite peace -- albeit for small periods -- on returning, i know that our worries are all false.

But this certitude is lost in absence of sadhana and meditation.

Om Namah Shivaya

My 2 cents.


Competition with world brings stress, competition with yourself brings joy.

When one runs after money and power, it brings stress. When one runs after "what one can do" brings joy.

Let money and power run after you and not vice versa.

Do job as a duty (whether office or outside) with love, joy and satisfaction of giving your best.

Understand that you are holder of a post and not the post (like Bharata who acted on Rama's behalf). This will help analyse the performance of that post.

Empower, enable and network to create a bigger "you" to carry out the duties of the post.

At the end of the day the joy is out of what you have done and not what you have got.

Love and best wishes

[atanu]

Namaste Naya and Kallol

Thanks and regards for your kind words, prayer and wise sayings. Thanks and may the honey that this Universe is, be present with you also -- always.

I love the following from MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

There is the person in the eye, there is he who walks as in sleep, he who is sound asleep, and he who is above the sleeper: these are the four conditions (of the Self), and the fourth is greater than all.

Brahman with one foot moves in the three, and Brahman with three feet is in the last.

It is that both the true (in the fourth condition) and the untrue (in the three conditions) may have their dessert, that the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.

------------------------------

There is the person who is beyond the person in the eye, beyond the person who walks in sleep, and beyond the person who is deep asleep. Till that person is known, I guess some abrasion is required and inevitable between the two Selves that became two........

Om Namah Shivaya

[NayaSurya]

That is one of the most beautiful and true things I have ever read in my lifetime of reading. Thank you.

May these lives of duplicity lead to one.

[kallol]

Namaste Naya and Kallol

Thanks and regards for your kind words, prayer and wise sayings. Thanks and may the honey that this Universe is, be present with you also -- always.

I love the following from MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

There is the person in the eye, there is he who walks as in sleep, he who is sound asleep, and he who is above the sleeper: these are the four conditions (of the Self), and the fourth is greater than all.

Brahman with one foot moves in the three, and Brahman with three feet is in the last.

It is that both the true (in the fourth condition) and the untrue (in the three conditions) may have their dessert, that the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.

------------------------------

There is the person who is beyond the person in the eye, beyond the person who walks in sleep, and beyond the person who is deep asleep. Till that person is known, I guess some abrasion is required and inevitable between the two Selves that became two........

Om Namah Shivaya


!!!!! ????

[atanu]

!!!!! ????

Namaste kallol

What are the four questions please?

Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

Namaste kallol

What are the four questions please?

Om Namah Shivaya


Your answer went over my old head.

So the enquiry for clarifications.

4 ?s are for the 4 sections

Love and best wishes

[atanu]

Your answer went over my old head.
So the enquiry for clarifications.
4 ?s are for the 4 sections
Love and best wishes

Dear Kallol,

I assume that by 'the 4 sections', you refer to 'the Four Conditions' stated in MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD, cited by me.

Since this is the thread on goal of life, I pointed to the goal as taught to us by all upanishads. The following is from the Mandukya Up.


7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.
------------------------
You may wish to read the detailing of the four conditions of that Self, which must be known. Hope this helps.


Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

Dear Kallol,

I assume that by 'the 4 sections', you refer to 'the Four Conditions' stated in MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD, cited by me.

Since this is the thread on goal of life, I pointed to the goal as taught to us by all upanishads. The following is from the Mandukya Up.


7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.
------------------------
You may wish to read the detailing of the four conditions of that Self, which must be known. Hope this helps.



Om Namah Shivaya



Sorry for my ignorance. As I had stated earlier - I am not well read.

Thanks for the clarifications. The fourth one is of course the TRUTH

Love and best wishes

[NayaSurya]

I come back tonight because something is heavy on my mind...and it usually means I should post.

I do have to apologize. I have read much...a whole lot in fact. But, much of my learning comes from experience and observation of life and the souls mucking through with me. So this is a fish tale...and I hope you do not mind the deviation, beloved friends and helpers.<3

Lastnight I had a dream. I was on a great ocean. Three figures upon a strong, grey wooden fishing boat. One a woman, two men.

The woman's hair was beautiful, her clothes, impeccable...she was covered in jewels...

The two fisherman wore heavy weather rain slickers...

As the winds came up the boat rocked heavily on it's sides and the ocean splashed over the sides of the boat. She cried out..."Do not get me WET!"

A moment echoed in my memories...

20 years ago...as a senior in high school...a friend came to me and asked me to come with her to a nearby lake to ride on a row boat.

She was always dressed in fine, expensive clothes...100$ just for her sweater. I was unsure...I did not know how to row a boat. She told me she was girl scout, professional rower ...badge holder in rowing and she would "teach me".

So we go and I am confused by her clothes...she is in these fine clothes and we are to embark in a lake with mud and fish guts...it's not clean. I wore modest flannels...ready for the mud.

She took us out into the boat but, unable to even row one stroke we are quickly forced into the middle of this enormous lake by the current. She begins to cry and says she actually didn't know how to row, that she had lied.

Then a severe storm rolled in...lightning, thunder and great winds come. She refused to even pick up the ores...not even to help me try to learn. I had to begin to learn to row...and I did so. I alone, rowed us to an island to rest a moment and then I turned the boat around and rowed my heart out to the shore all without her help. But, being so fatigued from fighting the strong current I could not get the ore to come so high out of the water and so each time I rowed...the water rushed into the boat hitting her and her fine clothes. I tried very hard to avoid this, but as the fatigue grew...so did the instances of her soaking. She cried..."DO NOT GET ME WET!"

Here she was...in the middle of the lake...without the knowledge to row...I now am rowing by myself with hands splintered from the strain..and she decries such a thing?

Such it is years later ...that I dream of the ocean and the woman decrying the same thing...and the fishermen say to her..."If you do not want to get wet...do NOT get in the boat!"

I believe this was in reply to the post I made in this thread. The woman's clothes represent ego...desire...all the trappings of these lifetimes. The fisherman...the wise...correcting the direction.

For I am here to get wet and so I can not worry about these inanimate items around me.

So funny how this forum always causes such things. Thank you for the lesson<3

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

For an arrow to be used properly in a war, the one who wields must....
First, know your target,
Second, find his target,
Third, aim for the target,
Fourth, pull the string of the bow,
Fifth, let go and watch it hit.

Funny.....
We don't know what the target is.
We don't know we have an arrow in our hand.
We don't know we have a bow in our hand.
It is still funnier to know that we don't know how to use the bow and the arrow, even if we know that there is a bow and arrow in our hands.
This is the case of Sattviks,

Funnier......
We don't know what 'target' means.
We don't know what an arrow is.
We don't know what a bow is.
It is even funnier to know that we don't even know that we have hands to wield them.
This is the case of the Rajsiks,

The Funniest......
We don't know we even exist.
We are unconscious.
This is the case of Tamasiks,

Rishis know what the target is, they know that they have a bow and arrow and learning how to wield.

Yogis have already wielded the weapon in their hands, they have aimed and ready to shoot.

Brahmarshis have already pulled the string and are ready to leave it.

Sad....

I don't know what my target is.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


For an arrow to be used properly in
Funny..... We don't know what the target is.
We don't know we have an arrow in our hand.


'We' ?
I see it differently. I am of the opinion that many do know the target and understand the arrow, yet opinions may vary.

praṇām

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;



'We' ?
I see it differently. I am of the opinion that many do know the target and understand the arrow, yet opinions may vary.

praṇām


This is really funny, you definitely didn't read my opinion fully. I did mention that those who do know what their target is, are referred to as rishis. Rishi refers to a person who is very near to nature and can comprehend its ways. Also, he must know that target. When I said 'we' I referred 'we' as in those who do not know, yet are satvik. For example, when I was a kid, I was a Sattvik (now Tamas and Rajas mainly surround me, I think), then, I didn't know what the target is, but still loved god. Even today, I don't know the target. Rishis are sattviks too, but are in higher level. I understand that many (most) here do know what the target is. I call those Sattviks Rishis.

Both are opinions are same. I just failed to express it in the correct manner.
Forgive me Yajvanji. :)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233; UDU mv,



This is really funny, you definitely didn't read my opinion fully.

I think I did read your opinion fully ( on post 55), yet perhaps did not comprehend it in the way you have intended.

I see and understand ṛṣi-s as yukti , established in brahman.
Hence for them the target has been reached. Yogi-s are yukta ( in union or yoked ) with the target ( brahman). Brahma-ṛṣi-s is see no difference.

If 'we' = those that do not know, then I better appreciate what you have written. For me 'we' is a grouping or 'all inclusive' and that is how I initially read your post... that is neither here or there.

But that said, there are many that are not established in the target (brahman),yet know what path to take. And they know they do exist in sattā ( Being, Existence). This seems to be an easy verification process by personal experience and by the śāstra-s. That was the point of consideration of my last post.

I must agree there are those that don't know they don't know, and that is a whole other conversation.

Yet we still can put people into two big buckets those that do know this mighty Being personally and experientially, and those that don't.

praṇām

[Parivrajaka]

Namstey Atanu,

I am quite a new member and was reading the different view of points from each members. almost all of them are quite convincing and true when we consider it from their individual view of point.

I will post my opinion. According to the ancient seers, there is only one goal for human life and that is going back home where we came from. Life and death is a cycle, it began from a point where we call God, Infinite Intelligence, Supreme Power, Parmatma, Brahman. Swami Vivekananada used the term "Macrocosm" to define this.

The Atman or Soul is untouched by any feelings or desires and it is a part of the Infinite Intelligence. It starts its journey from there and the journey is to enjoy worldly pleasures. As a results it starts vibrating and falls down from the Infinite consciousness to finite consciousness. Just like a drop of water from the sea has all the qualities of a sea, the fallen life force has all the qualities of the infinite Intelligence. the only difference is it forgets the state of infinite consciousness and became finite consciousness. In order to enjoy worldly pleasures it needs mind and body. so it again transforms into the state of mind and from there to body. And keeps on changing from one body to another by death and birth. All the forms of life including amoeba to human form are different forms the soul takes to enjoy. According to the ancient seers the average time for fulfilling this cycle is calculated as apprx. 14.5 Lakh (1.45 Million) years. Again it can vary from life to life depending upon cause and effect.

The ancient seers has divided human life into mainly two parts. The path of knowledge and path of Ignorance. According to them, spiritual life has been considered and the path of knowledge and Materialistic life as path of ignorance. Both the ways ultimately leads to the single truth that is returning back from where we have started which we calls self realization or salvation.

The duty of a materialistic person is to lead his life in a truthful manner without causing troubles or doing any unlawful activities which may lead to a further extension of the life cycle. The duty of the spiritual person is to lead a spiritual life and realize that the entire universe and himself is one not two. It is clearly mentioned that a real eligible person for leading a spiritual life will be less than 1%. It is for them all the religious things like temples scriptures and different form of gods are made. A materialist need not go to any temples or do prayers or worship any sort of gods. In fact temples and our so called gods like Kali, Rama, Ganesha and Shiva are not gods. Those are symbolic presentation of certain facts by the seers.

Namstey.

[sar78]

Every Mahaan would acknowledge the fact that there must be Godly purpose meant for each human birth... like for Godly avatars of Rama and Krishna! Ramavatar's purpose is to kill adharmic Ravana and establish the Dharma....
Similarly Krishnavatar's purpose is to thwart away adharmic kaurava kingdom and teach Bhagavad Gita to humanity;

Likewise, every human being would have a dharmic goal in life I suppose... Rama and Krishna are example of Godly beings came down to earth and show the way of the life... we need to follow those principles of dharma proposed by Godhood to human beings... I think that would be our purpose of our life....