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15 July 2010, 09:20 AM
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Sister Mary Joseph, a former Brahmin Hindu, since 1977 has lived in the cloistered Carmelite Convent in Mumbai. ...

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Eastern Mind
15 July 2010, 09:39 AM
Vannakkam:

Interesting. What religious freedom means is the 'freedom' to proseltyse unethically, the 'freedom' to feed the converted but not the heathens, the 'freedom' to slander other religions. When will the nonsense stop?

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
15 July 2010, 10:13 AM
Vannakkam:

Interesting. What religious freedom means is the 'freedom' to proseltyse unethically, the 'freedom' to feed the converted but not the heathens, the 'freedom' to slander other religions. When will the nonsense stop?

Aum Namasivaya
Hi EM
When a devotee can stand up alone and say "My God is enough, I have no need of anyone or anything else" then the nonsense will stop. As to where a devotee can draw that strength, certitude and faith in Sanatana Dharma and God, should be a fundamental topic for those living the path of Sanatana Dharma today.

Ramakrishna
15 July 2010, 11:16 PM
Namaste,

I also find this laughable. I've seen the Vatican speak out numerous times about the need for "religious freedom". But what they mean by that is for Catholics to have more rights in countries where they are in the minority. For countries where they are in the majority, the Vatican tries to make them in control as much as possible and doesn't care about other religions. "Religious freedom" to them just means whatever is in the best interest of their own religion.

Jai Sri Krishna

Eastern Mind
16 July 2010, 07:54 AM
Namaste,

I also find this laughable. I've seen the Vatican speak out numerous times about the need for "religious freedom". But what they mean by that is for Catholics to have more rights in countries where they are in the minority. For countries where they are in the majority, the Vatican tries to make them in control as much as possible and doesn't care about other religions. "Religious freedom" to them just means whatever is in the best interest of their own religion.

Jai Sri Krishna

Vannakkam Ramakrishna: Yup. And the sad part is they don't seem to get the double standard at all, and yet for any outside observer its so blatantly obvious. But their status and serious practitioner numbers are gravely in decline, (because of this, but also all their own scandals) at least in countries where the money is.


Aum Namasivaya

Believer
20 July 2010, 07:11 PM
This is part of a bigger problem that Hindus in India will be faced with in the near future.

When BJP was in power, the number of visas given to christian missionaries were very limited. The religious right (conservative christians) in the US complained and even the President chimed in that India was not being fair to its minorities (translation christians). With the regime change in India, the influx of Western proselytizers has increased a lot. Few years down stream, the scion of the Gandhi family will ascend to the throne and stay there for the rest of his life, like his predecessors from the Nehru-Gandhi clan. Those 25-30 years will be the heyday of Catholicism in India; as under the direction of India's first christian Prime Minister, there will be hoards of missionaries running amok converting entire villages of poor people. The game plan is simple - give the poor villager a free meal and then shove a bible down his throat as dessert. Hindus are by and large a docile group and I don't see much resistance to missionaries working under the patronage of the central govt. The uneducated naive masses will be willing partners in this surreptitious game, as they are the ones who caste votes in favor of secularist (anti-hindu) leaders. Instead of solitary "sisters" here and there, we will see many many "sisters" and "fathers" running schools and programming the minds of next generation of hindu kids.

Am I being oversimplistic and paranoid? I sure hope so. But I don't think I am. I welcome your comments!

BryonMorrigan
20 July 2010, 07:27 PM
This is part of a bigger problem that Hindus in India will be faced with in the near future.

When BJP was in power, the number of visas given to christian missionaries were very limited. The religious right (conservative christians) in the US complained and even the President chimed in that India was not being fair to its minorities (translation christians). With the regime change in India, the influx of Western proselytizers has increased a lot. Few years down stream, the scion of the Gandhi family will ascend to the throne and stay there for the rest of his life, like his predecessors from the Nehru-Gandhi clan. Those 25-30 years will be the heyday of Catholicism in India; as under the direction of India's first christian Prime Minister, there will be hoards of missionaries running amok converting entire villages of poor people. The game plan is simple - give the poor villager a free meal and then shove a bible down his throat as dessert. Hindus are by and large a docile group and I don't see much resistance to missionaries working under the patronage of the central govt. The uneducated naive masses will be willing partners in this surreptitious game, as they are the ones who caste votes in favor of secularist (anti-hindu) leaders. Instead of solitary "sisters" here and there, we will see many many "sisters" and "fathers" running schools and programming the minds of next generation of hindu kids.

Am I being oversimplistic and paranoid? I sure hope so. But I don't think I am. I welcome your comments!

At least, look at it this way: Hinduism survived the Mughal Empire, and the much more aggressive tactics of the Christian missionaries under English and Portuguese rule. (I'm an optimist. I know...) The Christians are pushing very hard outside of North America and Europe because Christianity is in such decline in those countries. They know that the average poor villager does not have the access to television and the Internet that others do.

In my opinion, THAT's the answer: More information. Christianity and Islam thrive among the poor and uneducated, but always decline when people have the freedom to see that there are alternatives. Even if they make inroads in India in the short term...eventually those villagers will have the Internet. ;)

Ramakrishna
20 July 2010, 10:14 PM
This is part of a bigger problem that Hindus in India will be faced with in the near future.

When BJP was in power, the number of visas given to christian missionaries were very limited. The religious right (conservative christians) in the US complained and even the President chimed in that India was not being fair to its minorities (translation christians). With the regime change in India, the influx of Western proselytizers has increased a lot. Few years down stream, the scion of the Gandhi family will ascend to the throne and stay there for the rest of his life, like his predecessors from the Nehru-Gandhi clan. Those 25-30 years will be the heyday of Catholicism in India; as under the direction of India's first christian Prime Minister, there will be hoards of missionaries running amok converting entire villages of poor people. The game plan is simple - give the poor villager a free meal and then shove a bible down his throat as dessert. Hindus are by and large a docile group and I don't see much resistance to missionaries working under the patronage of the central govt. The uneducated naive masses will be willing partners in this surreptitious game, as they are the ones who caste votes in favor of secularist (anti-hindu) leaders. Instead of solitary "sisters" here and there, we will see many many "sisters" and "fathers" running schools and programming the minds of next generation of hindu kids.

Am I being oversimplistic and paranoid? I sure hope so. But I don't think I am. I welcome your comments!

Namaste Believer,

I largely agree with what you have said. Some Hindus have been resisting and standing up to the missionaries, but in a wrong way that the media uses to just make the Indians look worse. I am talking about the murders of Christian missionaries in Orissa. Of course the media just concentrates on that but they rarely ever talk about the deceitful and dishonest tactics the missionaries use and how they are destroying entire villages. Myself and others on this forum believe that all missionaries should be banned from India. But of course that is not likely to happen at all.

I do agree with what Bryon has said. The key is education. Missionaries just prey on the poor and uneducated and tell them that all they need is Jesus to have a better life. Any educated person would not fall for such foolish nonsense. But the poor and uneducated in India do, and that is why education is so important.

Another important thing is the ending of caste discrimination. People of lower castes are discriminated against and then the missionaries come and promise them a better life. Before they have an opportunity to actually examine what Christianity is about, they jump on it and convert. But of course a lot of them aren't able to find out what Christianity is really about, and that goes back to education and the spreading of ideas, which is the most important thing.

Jai Sri Krishna

Believer
20 July 2010, 10:32 PM
Even if they make inroads in India in the short term...eventually those villagers will have the Internet. ;)

I am sorry to tell you Bryon that in India, conversion is a one way street. Anyone converting to Islam or Christianity is gone for good. They seldom re-convert. And it's always the whole clan or village that goes, not just individuals. The church specifically instructs the converts to sever all ties with the ones from the clan who refused to convert, thereby eliminating any desire for going back. Things are lot different there than what we have in the US. It is not a matter of choice, but more of incentive for financial advantage for a short duration. Once the converts are sucked in, the money dries up and they find themselves to be as poor as before the conversion. It is a vicious cycle and naive poor uneducated people get duped into this fraudulent scheme. Anyways, it is bound to happen and no one is going to stop it. Having access to internet down the line is not going to help, as the converts would be "more catholic" than the "born Catholics" in the West. :)

Eastern Mind
21 July 2010, 07:40 AM
Vannakkam:

It saddened me when driving through an entire community of Christianity in Tamil Nadu. Hinduism was still very predominant, but when you hit these enclaves, it seemed Christianity was the predominant one. I think rich Hindus, and others need to do a bit more literature distribution and the like. I really noticed a lot of Christian billboards. That might be a start. I know it gore against Hindu ideals, yet I don't think a little 'fight fire with fire' would be wrong. Just standing tall for Hinduism. Certainly people like myself have some sort of impact. It gets rid of the assumption that white equals Christian for sure. In India everyone has a religion. You have to be something. In the west we have that vast area of non-belief. The Hindus seemed more devoted as well. More festivals, more days of the week to temple etc. I personally am not very worried about the Christian 'takeover' as the money well from the west, especially in Catholicism is running dry as well.

I'll always remember driving by a a large cathedral like church that sat beside a small little temple in Mauritius on a Sunday morning. The cathedral had a few people going in about to get scared and yelled at, and the small temple had a throng of people who couldn't fit in getting blessed by the vibration.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
21 July 2010, 10:14 AM
Ones that have been converted may be lost, but have hope.

My family's heritage is Cherokee. My ggg Grandfather was converted to Christianity because he thought it would spare our family going on the trail of tears....he learned English...wore only western clothes and made his family do the same.

His christian name he took was Christmas. Because it was on that holiday that he converted our family. The white U.S. government soldiers drug him and our family out of his home like dogs. It was the color of his skin...he could change his religion, language...even his clothes. But all of it would never change his skin.

Years....years and years passed. Until this moment.

Every child, every single child, born to his gg grandchildren are an Eastern religion. It's a very close match to those native beliefs.

Even the swastika is present.

So it may not be this generation, that a convert's mistake is fixed. But eventually, the Truth comes around again...and a child...strong enough to bear it's weight, despite the culture around them.

Have hope.

Ramakrishna
21 July 2010, 11:00 PM
I am sorry to tell you Bryon that in India, conversion is a one way street. Anyone converting to Islam or Christianity is gone for good. They seldom re-convert. And it's always the whole clan or village that goes, not just individuals. The church specifically instructs the converts to sever all ties with the ones from the clan who refused to convert, thereby eliminating any desire for going back. Things are lot different there than what we have in the US. It is not a matter of choice, but more of incentive for financial advantage for a short duration. Once the converts are sucked in, the money dries up and they find themselves to be as poor as before the conversion. It is a vicious cycle and naive poor uneducated people get duped into this fraudulent scheme. Anyways, it is bound to happen and no one is going to stop it. Having access to internet down the line is not going to help, as the converts would be "more catholic" than the "born Catholics" in the West. :)

Namaste Believer,

I have read about Hindus who converted to Christianity and ended up converting back to Hinduism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3534071.stm

These occasions are rare, but they still provide hope. As the article says, the VHP is planning on converting back thousands of former Hindus.

You are right that the missionaries tell the converts to sever all ties with their families. Then the missionaries leave, and the converts are left dirt poor and they can't go back to their families because they cut off ties with them. But it is up to the Hindus to go out and reconvert these people. It is up to the Hindus to welcome those people back into Sanatana Dharma, even though they got fooled and suckered into Christianity. That is exactly what the VHP and others are doing, and I pray that they succeed.

Jai Sri Krishna