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redrobin
21 July 2010, 08:02 PM
Could someone shed some light on Atmakaraka dosha and remedies. For eg. if Venus is AK then 4th and 6th from it are bad? And depending on which planet is in that house, there will be problems connected to that are of life? 4th from my AK - Venus is Moon in Dhanu ( also 4th house an I am kanya lagna) and 6th in 6th bhava is Retro Sani in Aq. Is that a dosha and if so please shed some light on remedies?

Regards,
RR

yajvan
23 July 2010, 07:37 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

First lets talk about ātmakāraka overall so other HDF readers can get a 'feel' for the subject at hand.

The ātmakāraka deals with ātmajñāna - knowledge of the Self, soul, ātman or the inner spiritual intent ( adhikārin¹). It is considered rāj ( king ) of the chart. Yet if the person is not of spiritual intent what then? It shows what is most important ~king~ , and those that are considered most important to the aspirant.

We know the cara-ātmakāraka¹ is the planet with the highest degree in any one rāśi¹. Yet the natural ātmakāraka is the sun (raviḥ , we also call sūrya). Sarāvalī says it this way:
The sun is the ātma, moon is manas ( mind) , mars indicates strength, jupiter and venus show knowledge and happiness; one's ego we see from rāhu and saturn is the cause of grief.

All the cara kāraka-s¹ can be collected into 3 maco-groups:


those that assist, influence, ~ play a role~ in ones overall purpose in life
those that assist/influence in realizing one's ambitions/desires/intentions
those that are objects of one's desires and intentionsSo there are 8 cara kāraka-s. Why not 9 ? ketu is not a player in this cara kāraka scheme of things.
Placement of the ātmakāraka in trines and quadrants from lagna lord (ascendant) is conducive to spiritual orientations or moving to a spiritual path ( becoming or bhāva ) in this life. I mention this because this is where most of my interest lies regarding jyotiṣh.

Now in the D1 ( birth chart, we just call Divisional 1 chart for short) , we see where the cara-ātmakāraka and natural ātmakāraka is placed to get a feel for the location of the king or importance in ones life, also one's ego as sun is ruler of the ego. This placement of the cara-ātmakāraka is called the kāraka lagna. We then can see from there
the influences on this grāha (planet).

Where may the ātmakāraka run into some issues or vighna an obstacle , impediment ? We would need to look to those positions, grāha's, yoga's, etc. that cause bādhaka - oppressing, hindering, opposing, injuring, paining. For this we use the same 'ingredients' of jyotiṣh that one would apply to analyse a chart. But that said, If the view is that of adhyātma or adhyātmika ( spiritual endeavor) then the rules are different in the charts assessment.

If one wishes to learn more about this cara-ātmakāraka, you may wish to spend some time in this jyotish folder and look up the various posts on ātmakāraka . I think you will find some useful information. This one post will lead you to 3 or 4 posts on cara-ātmakāraka http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1404


praṇām

words

rāśi - is a heap, a mass, a pile, a group; in joytiṣ it is the name given to sign, as a collection point.
The ātmakāraka is the planet with the highest degree in any one rāśi.
Example: guru (jupiter) is at 24º 14' 44" and śukla (venus) is at 24º 14' 40" , then guru is deemed ātmakāraka . We use the complete angle-degree.
adhikārin - entitled to , fit for . But for what spiritual pursuit ~ sādhana~
cara kāraka : cara =means moving + kāraka is who or what produces or creates . That is, one graha may be the ātmakāraka for one chart and not another. They are moving vs. fixed or sthiti meaning standing , staying , remaining rooted in bhaj , ' to make a stay'.
vighna विघ्न an obstacle , impediment , hindrance , opposition , prevention , interruption , any difficulty or trouble

acharya_mj
14 December 2012, 01:39 PM
Dear Sir,
i have sun as my atmakaraka which is in 6th house in navamsa ie karkamsa now in 12th house from sun atmakaraka, i have saturn ie jivanmuktamsa of capricon on which there is drashti of moon which is again of cancer in 11th house from navmasa,so i want to know who is my ishta devata?

KrishnaTVM
18 December 2012, 01:11 PM
Dear Acharya_mj,

The planet in the 12th house from Athamakaraka in your Navamsa(D9) Chart indicates your Ishta Devata. In case of no plantes then the planet aspecting 12th house indicates your Ishta Devata.

Dear Yajvan Ji,

Whether Rahu can be treated as Athamakaraka. If yes do we need to subtract the longitute of Rahu from 30 degress since it travels in reverse direction. Some books donot include Rahu in the list.

Thanks in advance for your clarification.

Thanks
Krishna

yajvan
19 December 2012, 12:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast


Dear Yajvan Ji,

Whether Rahu can be treated as Athamakaraka. If yes do we need to subtract the longitute of Rahu from 30 degress since it travels in reverse direction. Some books donot include Rahu in the list.

Thanks in advance for your clarification.

Thanks
Krishna
Yes, you are correct... since rāhu is always retrograde it starts in a sign at 2929'29'' which is the lowest degree for rāhu;
we subtact 30 - 2929'29'' = 0000'01''.
Yes, rāhu can be ātmakāraka , but not ketu. Ketu has no head, and therefore not a candidate.
All the cara kāraka-s can be collected into 3 maco-groups:


those that assist, influence, ~ play a role~ in ones overall purpose in life
those that assist/influence in realizing one's ambitions/desires/intentions
those that are objects of one's desires and intentionsSo there are 8 cara kāraka-s. Why not 9 ? ketu is not a player in this cara kāraka scheme of things.
Placement of the ātmakāraka in trines and quadrants from lagna lord (ascendent) is conducive to spiritual orientations or moving to a spiritual path ( becoming or bhāva ) in this life. I mention this because this is where most of my interest lies regarding jyotiṣh.

iti śivaṁ

words
cara kāraka : cara =means moving + kāraka is who or what produces or creates . That is, one graha may be the ātmakāraka for one chart and not another. They are moving vs. fixed or sthiti meaning standing , staying , remaining rooted in bhaj , ' to make a stay'.

KrishnaTVM
19 December 2012, 12:34 PM
Dear Yajvan Ji,

Thanks for the clarification. One more question on the similar lines. Does
Athamakaraka points to one's Kula Devatha(Family Temple/God) or its a different formula.

Thanks
Krishna

Viraja
20 December 2012, 11:46 AM
Sorry for posting a question in between replies, but I would be very glad to know if atmakaraka acquires any dosha by associating with debilitated Sun placed in the nakshatra ruled by Rahu?? (Kumba lagna with Sun and Mercury AK placed in Libra the 9th house). If so, any remedies? Thank you.

yajvan
20 December 2012, 12:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast


Dear Yajvan Ji,

Does Athamakaraka points to one's Kula Devatha(Family Temple/God) or its a different formula.

Let me offer the following for one's consideration and review.

There are different rules that are used... let me offer a few here for you and other HDF readers.

We have talked of identifying the iṣṭa-devatā in a few posts ( this string) and there are others that outline the formulaic approach.
It can be found in this jyotish folder.

Now let's define the following.

kula-devatā
grāma-devatā
dharma-devatā
pālana-devatā
guru-devatā
grāma-devatākula-devatā
... is found based upon the strongest influence on the 2nd house in the D20 or viṃśaṃśa chart. We know kula means a herd , troop , flock , assemblage , multitude , number and also family. So, the family devatā is found in the 2nd ( dealing with family, domestic happiness, truthfulness,etc) and the 20th divisional chart dealing with spiritual matters, religious activities and the like.


grāma-devatā
... is the strongest influence on the 4th house in the D20 or viṃśaṃśa chart. We know grāma means village. The 4th house deals with mother, nurturing, farms, happiness and contentment.


dharma-devatā
... is the graha forming the strongest influence on the 9th house (in the navaṃśa chart) from the karakaṃśa lagna. As you know the karakaṃśa is that sign that houses the ātmakāraka in the D9 chart.


pālana-devatā
... is the graha with the strongest influence on the 6th house from the amatyakāraka in the D9 chart. Just as we said that the ātmakāraka is defined as that graha with the highest degree in a sign, the amatyakāraka has the 2nd highest degree. This is how we identify it.
What is pālana ? It is the act of guarding , protecting , nourishing , defending. It is that graha that guides that natives actions in providing for the welfare of the family.


guru devatā
... is the sign that houses the bharātṛkāraka. We identify this graha as having the 3rd highest degree in a sign.
Now pending the location in degrees of this graha, and if that sign is movable , fixed or dual, then one of the 3 great (maha) ṛṣi-s i.e. nārada-muni, agastya-muni or durvāsā-muni are indicated.

iti śivaṁ

words

D9 chart or navaṃśa = 1/9th divisional chart.
aṃśa = partition , fraction; a degree of latitude or longitude
kāraka - instrumental in bringing about the action ; that whish does or creates

KrishnaTVM
21 December 2012, 01:00 PM
Thank alot for the clarification. Does the Planet/God Mapping for the Kula Devatha is the regular mapping or its different. Is there way to identify the temple/location or more details about the Kula Devatha from D20.

Thank you
Krishna

yajvan
21 December 2012, 05:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast

you mention,



Does the Planet/God Mapping for the Kula Devatha is the regular mapping or its different
Can you show me your mapping so I can see it; I then can offer you a POV and what I have been taught.


Is there way to identify the temple/location or more details about the Kula Devatha from D20.
I am sure there is , but I am not aware of it.

iti śivaṁ

KrishnaTVM
21 December 2012, 07:03 PM
Namasthe,

I meant the following.

Sun - Siva
Moon - Parvathi
Mars - Subramanya/Hanuman
Mercury - Vishnu
Guru - Dhakshinamoorthy/Raghavendra/Saints & Siva
Sukra - Lakshmi
Saturn - Sastha/Hanuman
Rahu - Kali/Narasimha

Thanks
Krishna

yajvan
23 December 2012, 06:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast


Namasthe,

I meant the following.

Sun - Siva
Moon - Parvathi
Mars - Subramanya/Hanuman
Mercury - Vishnu
Guru - Dhakshinamoorthy/Raghavendra/Saints & Siva
Sukra - Lakshmi
Saturn - Sastha/Hanuman
Rahu - Kali/Narasimha

Thanks
Krishna
Pending on the jyotish masters i.e. mahaṛṣi (mahārishi) parāśar , or jaimini-muni or harihara-ji, etc. the devatā-s aligning to the grāha-s may be different. Let me give you one example.

For the sun, parāśar-ji calls out agni, jaimini-ji calls out śiva and hari-hara-ji may call out śiva, ganapati or skanda pending the position of the sun within a sign. In fact for other grāha-s hari-hara-ji may consider the strength of the grāha, or a sign's condition as male, female, sattvic, rajastic or tamastic, or if a sign is fixed or dual and then call out the proper devatā that aligns to the considerations mentioned.

Yet IMHO no mattter one can not go wrong with the guidence given by mahaṛṣi parāśar. Please look also his work the brihat-parāśara-horā-śāstra and chapter 2 starting with the 5th śloka for the daśāvatara that align to viṣṇu and his āvatara.

I also favor the views of jaimini as his work and insights are profund (as I see it). One can look to his jaimini-s upadeśa sūtra-s, chapter 1, 2nd pāda ( or quarter) and starting with the 72nd sūtra, he outlines the alignment of the grāha-s to the devatā-s with regard to the iṣṭadevatā

iti śivaṁ

1. jaimini - one should note that jaimini was was a student/śiṣyaka of veda vyāsa i(also known as kṛṣṇa dvaipāyana) who in turn was son of mahaṛṣi parāśar.

KrishnaTVM
30 December 2012, 07:11 PM
Thanks for the clarification and I'll refer as the books to gain more details.

Thanks
Krishna

MSG
29 July 2014, 01:14 PM
Read this on a page for Rahu as Atmakaraka:

Atmakaraka are the planets occupying highest no of degerees in a sign in zodiac, The reasoning behind the Atmakaraka theory is a planet moving ahead leaves it's impact in an incremental manner.

Rahu is mostly misunderstood as Atmakaraka and wrongly conected to spiritual enlightenment, Rahu is maya a myriad of ambitions !!

An unanswerred question is why Rahu is found as Atmakaraka in highly evolved saint's birth chart, the answer is crisp and pretty simple, Unlike other planets Rahu moves in reverse motion, It becomes Atmakaraka when it's leaving a sign thus sign is getting free from the affliction, Rahu in the border degrees from 5 to 0 in the reverse order is indicates it's negative impact is reducing every minute thus it shows a person who has got Rahu as Atmakaraka is on a process to reduce Maya or Moha that Rahu indicates, Atmakaraka Rahu shows freedom from the Maya or Moha, this is the reason great saints like Sri Ramakrishna etc have got Rahu as atmakaraka.

There is an exception to notice, When Rahu is bellow 15 degrees and still a Atmakaraka that won't indicate a status in which person is free from the Maya as Rahu has to travel a lot and still cast dense shadow of Maya to such a person's vision, keeping such exceptions in mind while understanding and applying Atkamakarka theory on a chart will help you out.
- - - - - - -

Source : https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/satvargas/conversations/messages/2587
Author: Lalit Mishra , August 15 ( date not shown) - Yahoo Groups

yajvan
30 July 2014, 08:48 PM
namaste and hello,


Read this on a page for Rahu as Atmakaraka:

Atmakaraka are the planets occupying highest no of degerees in a sign in zodiac, The reasoning behind the Atmakaraka theory is a planet moving ahead leaves it's impact in an incremental manner.

Rahu is mostly misunderstood as Atmakaraka and wrongly conected to spiritual enlightenment, Rahu is maya a myriad of ambitions !!

An unanswerred question is why Rahu is found as Atmakaraka in highly evolved saint's birth chart, the answer is crisp and pretty simple, Unlike other planets Rahu moves in reverse motion, It becomes Atmakaraka when it's leaving a sign thus sign is getting free from the affliction, Rahu in the border degrees from 5 to 0 in the reverse order is indicates it's negative impact is reducing every minute thus it shows a person who has got Rahu as Atmakaraka is on a process to reduce Maya or Moha that Rahu indicates, Atmakaraka Rahu shows freedom from the Maya or Moha, this is the reason great saints like Sri Ramakrishna etc have got Rahu as atmakaraka.

There is an exception to notice, When Rahu is bellow 15 degrees and still a Atmakaraka that won't indicate a status in which person is free from the Maya as Rahu has to travel a lot and still cast dense shadow of Maya to such a person's vision, keeping such exceptions in mind while understanding and applying Atkamakarka theory on a chart will help you out.

If this comes from a web page it is proper to give the reader the link... this will allow one to see the context and the original author. It is also prudent because it gives the reader the source of the data/information.

thank you

saswathy
31 July 2014, 02:16 AM
Dear friends ,
When it comes to Rahu , how is his athmakarakathwa decided since he always moves in reverse direction . Logically speaking when he is in the begining of the sign he can be said as athmakaraka as he has traversed in that sign many degrees .It has been a great doubt to me from the begining , since when I started studying astrology .

Mana
31 July 2014, 04:52 AM
Dear saswathy,

To calculate Rahu's status amongst the graha karaka's.
We simply take his elevation in degrees and subtract that from 30 (some wouild say 31), so as to obtain the elevation to be used in this scale.


ie: rahu at 2 30' gives rahu to be at 27 30'

If no graha is found with an elevation above 27 30' then rahu is said to be atmakaraka.

Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
31 July 2014, 08:27 AM
Dear Erudite Jyotishi-friends,

Please pardon my ignorance, but the third Master (Muni) in Jyotish named in this thread, namely, Harihara ji -- please educate me about Him and astrological writings attributed to Him. I have heard of the Yugma Deity Hari-Hara who is believed to be the joint form of Shiva and Vishnu: The Duality within the Holy Trinity depicted by Creation-Sustenance-Dissolution (Destruction).

I am particularly interested in the jyotish angle of this.

Although lunar nodes do describe both direct and retrograde movements in their (mostly) invisible sojourn in the skies (except during eclipses), their mean motion is retrograde and hence their predominant tendency. Although Parashara ji (and others) have ascribed Rahu with atmakarakatwa when there is one planet short in the list to serve (details in BPHS etc), many contemporaries use Rahu as one of the contenders in the charakarakatwa list using 8 instead of 7 candidates (thus giving separate prominence to father and son).

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

yajvan
31 July 2014, 03:20 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Dear saswathy,

To calculate Rahu's status amongst the graha karaka's.
We simply take his elevation in degrees and subtract that from 30º, so as to obtain the elevation to be used in this scale.


ie: rahu at 2º 30' gives rahu to be at 17º 30'

If no graha is found with an elevation above 17º30' then rahu is said to be atmakaraka.

Kind regards.

Please re-consider the math offered i.e. check your numbers.

iti śivaṁ

Mana
31 July 2014, 03:30 PM
Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for correcting me, a thoughtless mistake; it is of course 27º 30' I shall amend my original post.

Kind regards.

saswathy
31 July 2014, 08:43 PM
Dear friend,
Rahu at 2.30 is considered as has traversed 27.30 in that sign and is given athmakarakathwa status if no planet has more degrees .But then my next question is how rahu is placed in divisional charts, the counting being done by backward motion or forward motion . I am not talking about the usual practice , but am interested in the logic behind that.If the exact degree is taken in to consideration for fixing the position in divisional charts , then why should it be a different parameter in atmakarakathwa .When Rahu is a mathematical point and not an entity like other planets , how can he be treated as a planet and be assigned 18 years . If the dictum --Sanivath Rahu is considered , the period should be 19 years ideally '' kopam seshana purayeth '' not the answer .

Mana
01 August 2014, 12:41 AM
Dear saswathy,

I am only just learning this subject now; never the less, if I might offer you the thought that your post has inspired in me, with the hope of sharing with you my perspective and current understanding:

The movement of rahu through a cakra due to the cakras mathematical construct is quite separate from his movement about bhu loka from bhurva loka.
We might consider the cakra to be an enlargement or magnification of one segment of kāla; a slice of time if you will. As such should we alter any of the initial coordinates that represent space and time. Rahu may move, though this movement is not due to the motion of his ephemeral body; this is due to the "clock work" of the cakras construction.

With all that said; I may learn more in the following months, and my understanding of this matter might change ...

Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
01 August 2014, 07:53 AM
Dear friend,
Rahu at 2.30 is considered as has traversed 27.30 in that sign and is given athmakarakathwa status if no planet has more degrees .But then my next question is how rahu is placed in divisional charts, the counting being done by backward motion or forward motion . I am not talking about the usual practice , but am interested in the logic behind that.If the exact degree is taken in to consideration for fixing the position in divisional charts , then why should it be a different parameter in atmakarakathwa .When Rahu is a mathematical point and not an entity like other planets , how can he be treated as a planet and be assigned 18 years . If the dictum --Sanivath Rahu is considered , the period should be 19 years ideally '' kopam seshana purayeth '' not the answer .

Whether a person travels from Srinagar to Delhi or Chennai to Delhi, when he is in delhi, he is in Delhi!

The savya-apasavya counting is a different matter than the placement of a degree in the vargas and the two must not be confused!

Regardless of the motion of a planetary point or body, direct or retrograde, the designation of vargas (kshetra fine-wards!) are based on the actual degrees of the zodiac. Please think about the Srinagar, Delhi, Chennai analogy and it should become clearer what I am trying to say.

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

saswathy
01 August 2014, 09:17 AM
Dear friend ,
the argument is not exactly convincing with the given example. The time taken , the difference in fare , the travel experience are not the same .Ends and means always count in any matter except the ultimate goal of human life .

Rohiniranjan
01 August 2014, 09:33 AM
Dear friend ,
the argument is not exactly convincing with the given example. The time taken , the difference in fare , the travel experience are not the same .Ends and means always count in any matter except the ultimate goal of human life .

You are over-analysing it. The analogy for that would be trying to take a watch apart to understand how it ticks! :-)

Regardless of fare paid, even mode of travel, speed of travel, who you are traveling with, whether you are a professional, or a leader or doctor or a T.C. or newly wed or whoever, Delhi would be Delhi!

The finer vargas are related to specific segments on the zodiac and so, whether a planet moves forward or backward in the zodiac does not change the varga! It is where it is and when a planet is in the zone depicted by the varga, it is in that varga.

Anyways, you should probably pose that question to your teacher(s) since their words would be more acceptable and convincing to you and eliminate the *resistance*...! ;-)

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Rohiniranjan
01 August 2014, 09:38 AM
Dear friend,
Rahu at 2.30 is considered as has traversed 27.30 in that sign and is given athmakarakathwa status if no planet has more degrees .But then my next question is how rahu is placed in divisional charts, the counting being done by backward motion or forward motion . I am not talking about the usual practice , but am interested in the logic behind that.If the exact degree is taken in to consideration for fixing the position in divisional charts , then why should it be a different parameter in atmakarakathwa .When Rahu is a mathematical point and not an entity like other planets , how can he be treated as a planet and be assigned 18 years . If the dictum --Sanivath Rahu is considered , the period should be 19 years ideally '' kopam seshana purayeth '' not the answer .

SVR and KVK arise from the duality described by Parashara Muni while discussing Chara Dasha.

yajvan
01 August 2014, 06:42 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


the period should be 19 years ideally '' kopam seshana purayeth ''

We know that within the viṁśottarī daśā (vimśottaraśata¹) system of mahāṛṣi (mahārishi) parāśara, 19 years is reserved for saturn ( śani = the slow moving one ); and rāhu has been assigned 18 years.
One complete nodal precession period or rāhu = 18.6 years. So with some license we could say that rāhu's daśā period is ~about~ right i.e. aligned with its precession period . But why then would ketu's daśā period be 7 years ? And śani's period around the sun = 29.7 years, yet we use 19 years.

I ask any of our esteemed HDF readers/researchers and jyotisha-s to explain the viṁśottarī daśā system logic of time periods used. What are the ~rules~ or laws that offer the process to come up with these time periods ? (I have not found a reasonable explanation in over 20 years of looking.) I have come up with several notions ( conjecture) yet I have not found any insight that resolves the question firmly.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Lunar_eclipse_diagram-en.svg/320px-Lunar_eclipse_diagram-en.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lunar_eclipse_diagram-en.svg)
courtesy of Wikipedia

iti śivaṁ


words

vimśottaraśata = vimśa + uttara + śata

viṃśa = consisting of 20 parts
uttara = followed by
śata = 100

Rohiniranjan
01 August 2014, 07:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



We know that within the viṁśottarī daśā (vimśottaraśata¹) system of mahāṛṣi (mahārishi) parāśara, 19 years is reserved for saturn ( śani = the slow moving one ); and rāhu has been assigned 18 years.
One complete nodal precession period or rāhu = 18.6 years. So with some license we could say that rāhu's daśā period is ~about~ right i.e. aligned with its precession period . But why then would ketu's daśā period be 7 years ? And śani's period around the sun = 29.7 years, yet we use 19 years.

I ask any of our esteemed HDF readers/researchers and jyotisha-s to explain the viṁśottarī daśā system logic of time periods used. What are the ~rules~ or laws that offer the process to come up with these time periods ? (I have not found a reasonable explanation in over 20 years of looking.) I have come up with several notions ( conjecture) yet I have not found any insight that resolves the question firmly.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Lunar_eclipse_diagram-en.svg/320px-Lunar_eclipse_diagram-en.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lunar_eclipse_diagram-en.svg)
courtesy of Wikipedia

iti śivaṁ


words

vimśottaraśata = vimśa + uttara + śata

viṃśa = consisting of 20 parts
uttara = followed by
śata = 100



And, even if someone manages to explain that, then there are the other umpteen dashas with planets ascribed completely different number of years and sequences and so on! Lot easier to figure out the sequence of planetary periods, at least in vimshottary!

Love and Light

Rohiniranjan

yajvan
01 August 2014, 09:57 PM
namaste and hello,


And, even if someone manages to explain that, then there are the other umpteen dashas with planets ascribed completely different number of years and sequences and so on! Lot easier to figure out the sequence of planetary periods, at least in vimshottary!

Love and Light

Rohiniranjan
What you say is true. Yet it is my humble opinion that once we understand the logic used then we can ~test~ this notion with other systems, a scientific approach. It is my firm understanding that what our wise offer us always stands on firm ground i.e. there is a reason behind the numbers and sequences they communicate to us to use.

pranam

saswathy
01 August 2014, 09:59 PM
Dear friends ,
I don't know whether it has any relevance here or not , but I am giving the finding .In homeopathy , many snake poisons are used for very serious and grave cases . The very poison which takes life out , works as an elexer when triturated and potentised. For serious mental cases ,for heart problems ,for skin diseases , they really work wonders , though many rationalists argue that they have only placebo effect. Now , I came across a case history , where a snake bite was reported to be causing , the swelling , pain and stinging in the same area of the body , same time of the year , for a period of 18 years . It can't be considered a coincidence . Some enigma is there and the fact that there is some connection between Rahu and 18 years is shown.

yajvan
01 August 2014, 10:14 PM
namaste and hello,


Dear friends ,
I don't know whether it has any relevance here or not , but I am giving the finding .In homeopathy , many snake poisons are used for very serious and grave cases . The very poison which takes life out , works as an elexer when triturated and potentised. For serious mental cases ,for heart problems ,for skin diseases , they really work wonders , though many rationalists argue that they have only placebo effect. Now , I came across a case history , where a snake bite was reported to be causing , the swelling , pain and stinging in the same area of the body , same time of the year , for a period of 18 years . It can't be considered a coincidence . Some enigma is there and the fact that there is some connection between Rahu and 18 years is shown.

I would ask you this... if this condition of the pain and stinging can be reproduced 100's of times. That is, a sample size of one can be considered a coincidence , yet if it is reproduced many times then the statistical significance increases beyond just interesting.

Now, let's assume that this 18 and the poison idea is firm, true and accurate and statistically significant. The pickle still is this: how to explain all the other periods e.g. 20 years for venus, 6 years for the sun ( of which I would choose 1 year), saturn at 19 years, etc. etc. They are all connected.

pranam

saswathy
02 August 2014, 03:09 AM
Dear friend ,
What you say is a valid point and some body should throw light on this .The so called 'Jagath kshakshus , Sun and moon are not given bigger time scale .It is said that Saturn reflects the result of our bad karma , where as Jupiter reflects our good karma , Venus reflects out punyakarma so on and so forth . Again it is said that a human birth takes place when there is a mixture of good and bad karmas in a certain ratio. These are points which can't be verified with any authenticity .We have to go by apthavakyam .Now even if want to go by scriptures , we find so many injustices committed even by great heros ,which were justified by the scriptures with their own arguments .In such a case , how do we know when a person is wronged whether it is his past bad karma which gave him that result or whether it is being brewed now .It is a million dollar question .Of course this logic does not warrant any interest in any bad deed .

Rohiniranjan
02 August 2014, 06:15 AM
namaste and hello,


What you say is true. Yet it is my humble opinion that once we understand the logic used then we can ~test~ this notion with other systems, a scientific approach. It is my firm understanding that what our wise offer us always stands on firm ground i.e. there is a reason behind the numbers and sequences they communicate to us to use.

pranam

Namaskaar Yajvan ji,

I am with you 100% about the above. My predisposition is to approach and utilize Jyotish, as received by us from ancients, with humble and grateful acceptance. Where would we be had the scriptures not been there?

While adopting the above, I also remain aware that the words of sages arrived first as verbal discourses and then over thousands of years were preserved by lineages of human beings through written words on different media, tada-patra (dried leaves), paashaana (stone tablets), paper, electronic-digital media (now). If there were some information items that got dropped or distorted, it was because we humans were not always 100% careful etc. So, lots of room for reconstructive research, which I believe is being conducted in many groups causing much excitement and pleasure but also some misgivings in a few!

It is a marvel and blessing of God that what remained preserved has so much good potential to be of help in guiding all of us in our modern lives.

From that point, individual journeys begin as divinators and students, which we all are...

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Rohiniranjan
02 August 2014, 06:21 AM
Dear friend ,
What you say is a valid point and some body should throw light on this .The so called 'Jagath kshakshus , Sun and moon are not given bigger time scale .It is said that Saturn reflects the result of our bad karma , where as Jupiter reflects our good karma , Venus reflects out punyakarma so on and so forth . Again it is said that a human birth takes place when there is a mixture of good and bad karmas in a certain ratio. These are points which can't be verified with any authenticity .We have to go by apthavakyam .Now even if want to go by scriptures , we find so many injustices committed even by great heros ,which were justified by the scriptures with their own arguments .In such a case , how do we know when a person is wronged whether it is his past bad karma which gave him that result or whether it is being brewed now .It is a million dollar question .Of course this logic does not warrant any interest in any bad deed .


In order to accomplish all that, one simple requirement would be a direct perception and knowledge of past lives which at the present time is either absent in most, or extremely sketchy!

Currently, it is like reading War and Peace (HUGE tome) with chunks of segments entirely missing. It is like embarking on a scientific research with incomplete training and inadequate background information. It is like trying to enter an Indy car race with inadequate fuel and the fuel supply line blocked in places like an artery riddled with atheromatous plaques!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Rohiniranjan
02 August 2014, 06:53 AM
Dear friends ,
I don't know whether it has any relevance here or not , but I am giving the finding .In homeopathy , many snake poisons are used for very serious and grave cases . The very poison which takes life out , works as an elexer when triturated and potentised. For serious mental cases ,for heart problems ,for skin diseases , they really work wonders , though many rationalists argue that they have only placebo effect. Now , I came across a case history , where a snake bite was reported to be causing , the swelling , pain and stinging in the same area of the body , same time of the year , for a period of 18 years . It can't be considered a coincidence . Some enigma is there and the fact that there is some connection between Rahu and 18 years is shown.


Any chance of us forum friends seeing the horoscope (birthdata since we use different ayanamshas and calculations, etc) of the unfortunate/fortunate individual and the relevant dates etc of the malady and the remedy working and any other relevant details.

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

saswathy
02 August 2014, 08:35 AM
Dear friend ,
unfortunately however , I am not in a position to give any details . Many times it just does not strike us to take those particulars. The case , I came across in the forests of courtrallam , was narrated by a third party which of course is an authentic source. The source also told me about the leaves which emit bright light in moon light , also about the leaves which kill all hunger and give strength for days with out any food .All are adbhuthas . I never had the fortune of going to that place again in life .

Rohiniranjan
02 August 2014, 08:54 AM
Dear friend ,
unfortunately however , I am not in a position to give any details . Many times it just does not strike us to take those particulars. The case , I came across in the forests of courtrallam , was narrated by a third party which of course is an authentic source. The source also told me about the leaves which emit bright light in moon light , also about the leaves which kill all hunger and give strength for days with out any food .All are adbhuthas . I never had the fortune of going to that place again in life .

Please don't feel bad; we all run into such events which burn a deep imprint in our memories and personal belief systems and widen our perception. We often fail to or it does not occur or at times circumstances are not appropriate for collecting the necessary information that could be useful in astrological milieu.

Regardless of the logic or lack of our understanding of the same, overall, the vimshottari periods seem to work and work well within the general confines of our understanding and acceptance of the parameters revealed in the scriptures that we know of and have come across. Even that is much to be grateful for, for me and many of us.

Rohiniranjan

yajvan
02 August 2014, 05:02 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté





We know that within the viṁśottarī daśā (vimśottaraśata¹) system of mahāṛṣi (mahārishi) parāśara, 19 years is reserved for saturn ( śani = the slow moving one ); and rāhu has been assigned 18 years.
One complete nodal precession period or rāhu = 18.6 years. So with some license we could say that rāhu's daśā period is ~about~ right i.e. aligned with its precession period . But why then would ketu's daśā period be 7 years ? And śani's period around the sun = 29.7 years, yet we use 19 years.

I ask any of our esteemed HDF readers/researchers and jyotisha-s to explain the viṁśottarī daśā system logic of time periods used.

vimśottaraśata = vimśa + uttara + śata

viṃśa = consisting of 20 parts
uttara = followed by
śata = 100

I am in hopes ( since we are on this subject ) that our jyotish HDF readers do have an audit trail (~ logic~) back to this viṁśottarī daśā period which = 120 years , yes ? That is, why 120 and not 100 or 115 or 112 ?

iti śivaṁ

Rohiniranjan
03 August 2014, 07:46 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté




I am in hopes ( since we are on this subject ) that our jyotish HDF readers do have an audit trail (~ logic~) back to this viṁśottarī daśā period which = 120 years , yes ? That is, why 120 and not 100 or 115 or 112 ?

iti śivaṁ

As far as I know, Yajvan ji, the logic trail (but perhaps not the inherent LOGIC!) is missing from much of jyotish foundation blocks which are taken as acceptable axiomatic truths, although in some cases some sort of a logic can be perceived by us modern kaliyugis.

For instance, the very basic funda block that we use. Twelve rashis and lords thereof. To the best of my recollection and/or knowledge, the actual logical basis is not given, but moderns have figured out that the series of lordships fits nicely with (concordant as they say) the periodicities and orbits of planets in the solar system.

The triplicities, quadruplicities (tattwa and guna etc) are all indicated as labels and lists but the logical reasoning is not explicitly stated in scriptures.

Is it because pieces were never there, or are missing, or other parallel texts which were not explicitly stated by the Rishis contain those logical trails although the 'lateral link' (citations) are seemingly missing? A reasoning that I have heard is that the scriptures were kind of like lecture transcripts from ancient schools (gurukuls) where youth went to learn about life and got educated in a number of subjects, of which jyotish was one and of which we have inherited, literally and figuratively a small fraction of. Mostly the facts but not always the logic behind those facts! That they work and work well without knowing the logic is what I call a BONUS! :-)

Please understand that I am not trying to question your noble pursuit of the logic behind the facts and in fact if someone does have the *audit trail* as you said (loved it!), no one will be better pleased than I! :-)

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

yajvan
03 August 2014, 12:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté




I am in hopes ( since we are on this subject ) that our jyotish HDF readers do have an audit trail (~ logic~) back to this viṁśottarī daśā period which = 120 years , yes ? That is, why 120 and not 100 or 115 or 112 ?

One must note that jyotish is a rules based system. If this was not true then the construction of higher level charts ( 20 mentioned by mahāṛṣi parāśara), not to mention the 32 daśā systems called out in his his brihat-parāśara-horā-śāstra would not be possible or repeatable.

So, there are rules that are supplied for the construction of all the charts and methodologies the one can apply. Yet today many plug in the numbers into a computer program and out comes the data set. The inner workings of how the rules apply are left to another more skilled. Yet I am of the firm believe the ~more skilled~ has the richer understanding of jyotish. It seems to me the more you know the workings the better you can apply the rules. For some it may be too much i.e. knowing how a watch works when you only need to know the time.
That said, many of the rules have been lost over time , or really not described as they have been safe-guarded by some paramparā-s¹ ( schools, lineage). To that, I will offer the simple logic behind the 120 years viṁśottarī daśā period I was taught ( as it is quite simple).

A full life in this age is considered 120 years and this aligns to the full daśā period depicted within this viṁśottarī daśā system. A ~ full life~ is the sum of pūruṣārthara or the 4 aims of existence or human pursuit : dharma ,artha , kāma , mokṣa.

If one looks to the 12 houses of the janma kuṇḍalī ( birth chart) we see this orderly pattern (dharma artha , kāma , mokṣa ) repeat 3 times. Look to the first 4 houses beginning with aries and ending with cancer. This pattern is there , and then once again begins with leo and continues to scorpio, then again pickups up for its 3rd round, finally ending in pisces. This we are informed gives us an insight to the quality of a house that is in question. Yet from a degrees º point of view we have 30º + 30º + 30º + 30º = 120º. This is repeated 3x times for a total of 360º.

It is this core cycle (dharma artha , kāma , mokṣa) that gives us the full life span of 120º and therefore 120 years of life. Now is there more to this story ? Yes², but I will leave it to the research of those interested jyotisha-s that wish to take this further³.

Base upon this logic it clearly suggests to me that the sub-periods of this daśā system also has logic and sequences behind it. My teacher has never gone to this depth of explaining - he is of the opinion ( I presume) that a hint is enough to stimulate the student's interest to keep on digging to one's level of satisfaction is met (and I continue my search).

iti śivaṁ

1.paramparā- - an uninterrupted row or series , order , succession , continuation
2. the 12 signs collectively are called dvadáśa āditya or 12 sun signs. The sun is significator of how one spends their day; how life comes to this earth
3. All 9 graha-s are represented by the 9 nakṣatra-s (or asterisms) that reside in the first 120º - from aries to cancer. Hence the sun + moon are fully represented.

Mana
04 August 2014, 01:10 AM
Dear Yajvan & fellow Jyotiṣa,

A fascinating subject indeed; thank you for posting; you have inspired quite a flurry of activity in my own studies.
If I might offer some thought that your fine posting has inspired within me:
The ratio between the periods ascribed to graha (the lowest common denominator of which is 120); Might I suggest that this have been found by simply observing the self over time ...
Thus this rhythm is felt and annotated, rather than calculated.

Manas tattva in action; this could take a 1000 years of penance or be a divine insight.

If this is the case, then no rule would need be written. I would speculate, due to my love of fractal mathematics; that the ratio is the result of a much larger form and that as such counting at a base 10 will not easily reveal it.

The Cartesian decimals of the square might then, I suspect; conceal more than they reveal any deeper form; The Kendra being but doors after all.

This thought will not stop my continued search ...

Kind regards.

yajvan
04 August 2014, 11:22 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


If I might offer some thought that your fine posting has inspired within me:
The ratio between the periods ascribed to graha (the lowest common denominator of which is 120); Might I suggest that this have been found by simply observing the self over time ...


I do not comprehend what you offer... can you show us this ratio in numbers ? I do not see it as the lowest number/common denominator. That does not suggest what you say is incorrect, I just do not find the audit trail behind the notion you offer.

iti śivaṁ

Rohiniranjan
04 August 2014, 01:11 PM
Dear friends,

Oversimplifying jyotish which is a biological study expressed through symbols into simple mathematical equations etc sounds a bit too ambitious as notions go!

This is not to say that no math or mathematical relationships underlying reality are involved! However, the relationships may run from simple and obvious (for certain factors within the framework of Jyotish) to complex mathematical *functions* and possibly this produces and underscores the multifactorial nature of the Jyotish symbolic-framework!

That said, mathematical claims etc must be expressed in a clear manner with details and more importantly demonstrated relevance. Or else, like many instances observed far and wide, they remain: Notions come, notions go, reality [Question Mark and Question!] remains! ;-)

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

yajvan
04 August 2014, 02:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Dear friends,

Oversimplifying jyotish which is a biological study expressed through symbols into simple mathematical equations etc sounds a bit too ambitious as notions go!
What you have said has captured my attention.... yet first and foremost, let me say I am going off topic substantially e.g. Atmakaraka dosha and remedies, the title of this string.
So, if we care to pursue this idea to its fullest extent I think we can append an existing post i.e. how does jyotish work ( if my memory serves me correctly).
With at preamble , some would call it rambling, I find the notion that jyotish would be considered a biological study. While I do not think it excludes the biological , it seems to me that jyotish in whole or in part deals with the timing of events , albeit the birth, death or change of any thing or things. That includes living ( people, animals, organisms and the like) and those that are non-living ( inert like rocks, oceans, seas, rain, mountains, and the like).

So, if we care to take this to the next level , let's either begin a new string or append new posts to 'how does jyotish work'.


iti śivaṁ

Mana
04 August 2014, 11:50 PM
Namaste,


... can you show us this ratio in numbers ? I do not see it as the lowest number/common denominator.

It would be my pleasure; I hope my use of the words ratio and denominator have not been erroneous. I had thought that fraction would possibly be better; that said, I decided upon ration as the segment of 120 (units) is entirely variable though it remains relative to its self, thus a ratio of the whole seemed to me to be more apt ... time is flowing and the daśa have scale through antardaśa etc.

We know the daśa periods to be as follows, I have already noted as as a fraction of the whole though I am considering these fractions to be a ratio as we know that our whole that is 120 is part of a rotation, or rather an iteration due to to fully connected past and future. Which we could include by using the fractions of 360 though if we do this, we return to 120 as it is the lowest common denominator.

ketu 7/120 = 7/120
sukra 20/120 = 1/6
surya 6/120 = 1/20
chandra 10/120 = 1/12
mangal 7/120 = 7/120
rahu 18/120 = 3/20
guru 16/120 = 2/15
śani 17/120 = 19/120
budha 17/120 = 17/120

Now the above is so due to the prime numbers used in certain daśa lengths. Now as we are looking at 120 as a whole, why not try to group the tattva? Perhaps we can remove some of the primes.

agni 20/120 = 1/6
jala 30/120 = 1/4
vāyu 37/120 = 37/120
pṛthvī 17/120 = 17/120
ākāśa 16/120 = 2/15 (4/30)

120 is still the lowest common denominator, from this I conclude that the ratio of graha to time span is not a harmonic of another function and is thus numerically irreducible.

Why a function?

I like to see the time span here in the daśa as being a gradient in a fractal landscape, rather than a time period or a number; kāla manifesting, to my mind, at another stage in the process: perhaps even being the gradient.

I hope Yajvan Ji, that this has clarified my thought process a little to you and that you might correct any mistakes in my audit trail, should you see fit to do so.
I am not much of a mathematician; though I do enjoy playing with the concepts by moving the axioms of my normal thought.

Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
05 August 2014, 05:35 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


What you have said has captured my attention.... yet first and foremost, let me say I am going off topic substantially e.g. Atmakaraka dosha and remedies, the title of this string.
So, if we care to pursue this idea to its fullest extent I think we can append an existing post i.e. how does jyotish work ( if my memory serves me correctly).
With at preamble , some would call it rambling, I find the notion that jyotish would be considered a biological study. While I do not think it excludes the biological , it seems to me that jyotish in whole or in part deals with the timing of events , albeit the birth, death or change of any thing or things. That includes living ( people, animals, organisms and the like) and those that are non-living ( inert like rocks, oceans, seas, rain, mountains, and the like).

So, if we care to take this to the next level , let's either begin a new string or append new posts to 'how does jyotish work'.


iti śivaṁ


I tried to post my thoughts as part of a new thread as per your friendly behest, Yajvan ji. However, it did not appear and hence the local HDF *universe* Wisdom perhaps decreed for the simple concordance between biological perspective and Jyotish to remain an untold facet of reality, at this time, or *here*, anyways! <LOL>

Rohiniranjan

Rohiniranjan
05 August 2014, 05:52 AM
Namaste,



It would be my pleasure; I hope my use of the words ratio and denominator have not been erroneous. I had thought that fraction would possibly be better; that said, I decided upon ration as the segment of 120 (units) is entirely variable though it remains relative to its self, thus a ratio of the whole seemed to me to be more apt ... time is flowing and the daśa have scale through antardaśa etc.

We know the daśa periods to be as follows, I have already noted as as a fraction of the whole though I am considering these fractions to be a ratio as we know that our whole that is 120 is part of a rotation, or rather an iteration due to to fully connected past and future. Which we could include by using the fractions of 360 though if we do this, we return to 120 as it is the lowest common denominator.

ketu 7/120 = 7/120
sukra 20/120 = 1/6
surya 6/120 = 1/20
chandra 10/120 = 1/12
mangal 7/120 = 7/120
rahu 18/120 = 3/20
guru 16/120 = 2/15
śani 17/120 = 19/120 [Error!]
budha 17/120 = 17/120

Now the above is so due to the prime numbers used in certain daśa lengths. Now as we are looking at 120 as a whole, why not try to group the tattva? Perhaps we can remove some of the primes.

agni 20/120 = 1/6
jala 30/120 = 1/4
vāyu 37/120 = 37/120
pṛthvī 17/120 = 17/120
ākāśa 16/120 = 2/15 (4/30)

120 is still the lowest common denominator, from this I conclude that the ratio of graha to time span is not a harmonic of another function and is thus numerically irreducible.

Why a function?

I like to see the time span here in the daśa as being a gradient in a fractal landscape, rather than a time period or a number; kāla manifesting, to my mind, at another stage in the process: perhaps even being the gradient.

I hope Yajvan Ji, that this has clarified my thought process a little to you and that you might correct any mistakes in my audit trail, should you see fit to do so.
I am not much of a mathematician; though I do enjoy playing with the concepts by moving the axioms of my normal thought.

Kind regards.



Okay, I followed the basis to a point behind adding up the planetary representations of tattwas and producing a second set of fractional summation (e.g. 6/120+7/120+7/120 for sun+mars+ketu which is kujavata, and similar others) to slice the one third of the pie in a different way).

But I failed to see the connection between your mathematical exercise and the audit trail or more correctly the logical trail about the reasoning behind the planetary periods being what they are.

What you did was to take two sets of axioms (givens) and showed that the pie (or rather one third of the pie) remains a whole (120 degrees) no matter how you cut (fractionate) it!

Love and Light (?)

Rohiniranjan

Mana
05 August 2014, 07:18 AM
Dear RR ji,

Perhaps we simply do not share the same perspective? Pertaining to the post to which you are referring, it is a response to Yajvan Ji's question as to why a lowest common denominator. Its self a response I think to a question that he had previously raised in post 38 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=118777&postcount=38) "why 120?"; Though I did not realize that whilst writing it.

I have tried to explain my thoughts, why it is that I think the daśa system be an internal examination of an iteration of a fractal; thus explaining why 120, before other numbers, and thus as a ratio rather than any fixed length of time; to give a 3d aspect to this landscape.

The unit seems rather arbitrary, everything is 1 ... except 0; all of these flowers seem to tend towards abundant numbers.
Are they perhaps sub sets of 1, waves in numerical existence.

Perhaps this is how 1 emerges? Or rather; how 4 emerges; from 3 ...

Kendra are assimilated to 10 and our vision, this is why we love the base 10 system, yet nature loves abundant numbers; is 120 perhaps the first number to allow a real number value for each graha daśa periods length ...

Worthy of further investigation as a line of thought; I am not offering any answer, just sharing thoughts.


Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
05 August 2014, 09:02 AM
Well Mana ji, obviously our perspectives are different, otherwise why questions would even rise, but since we are not sheep and don't all say "BAA..."and only that, we are human beings with a much larger vocabulary, etc. ;-)

The problem with your explanation that I sense and see is that vimshottari is only one dasa with the nice trinal division of the circle, but it is but one of many with rather different subperiodicities and totals alloted (108 for ashtottari for instance and smaller for yogini and so on, and even planetary involvement etc change as well).

And vimshottari is not the only dasa for which Saint Parashara and similar others have stated that those are general purpose dasas and thus not conditional dasas (applicable in fewer than ALL charts)!

So, it is not just about ovian/ovidian conformity or questioning of that, but the logic that we all are after! Presumably? <LOL>
The circle (360) in astrological framework is composed of three slices (triplicity) with four sub-slices which can be classified as fire, earth, air, water (repeating thrice) sequence, or dharma, artha, kama, moksha (repeating thrice), but also a third sequence which highlights the movable, fixed and common trinality. In this the three sequences are:
Movable, fixed, common, movable (first slice of circle)
Fixed, common, movable, Fixed (2nd slice with fixed capping the series)
Common, movable, fixed, common (3rd slice of 120 degrees, forming the base unit of vimshottari)

Each of these sequence has the same dharma, artha, kama, moksha sequence which runs in tandem with the fire, earth, air, water sequence.

But the planet in the predominantly movable (mesh-adi) trine would be so different from the same planet in the same (DAKMoksha) 'degree' but in the fixed (simh-adi) or common (Dhanur-adi) trinal slice!

Since, planets (dasa lords or bhukti lords) could all be in the same duty-cycle (artha, dharma etc) but with different kinetic potentials (movable, fixed or common), any simple mathematical reductionism would somehow not seem to be useful or even meaningful, unless appropriate multifactorial math be utilized!

Please do not take it as a display of opposition, but a questioning born out of curiosity about your thoughts and thinking!

Love,

Rohiniranjan

yajvan
05 August 2014, 11:11 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


I sense and see is that vimshottari is only one dasa with the nice trinal division of the circle, but it is but one of many with rather different subperiodicities and totals alloted (108 for ashtottari for instance and smaller for yogini and so on, and even planetary involvement etc change as well).


It is obvious ( I hope) that all daśā systems are rules based. Before anyone can use a daśā system it is advised that it applies to the native at hand. Such is the aṣṭottarī daśā system ( which aligns nicely in my chart). I only mention this to point out the obvious. There are 27 nakṣatra-s with 4 pada-s each. 27 x 4 = 108. A very nice fit , or a very nice coincidence?

This is the crux of my never-ending search for insight to this great science. To understand how the watch is made vs. just being satisfied with the time.
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/inside-pocket-watch-15745018.jpg



iti śivaṁ

Rohiniranjan
05 August 2014, 11:17 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



It is obvious ( I hope) that all daśā systems are rules based. Before anyone can use a daśā system it is advised that it applies to the native at hand. Such is the aṣṭottarī daśā system ( which aligns nicely in my chart). I only mention this to point out the obvious. There are 27 nakṣatra-s with 4 pada-s each. 27 x 4 = 108. A very nice fit , or a very nice coincidence?

This is the crux of my never-ending search for insight to this great science. To understand how the watch is made vs. just being satisfied with the time.
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/inside-pocket-watch-15745018.jpg



iti śivaṁ

And extending the watch analogy to a message shared, Yajvan ji, if we cherry-pick a statement (like a lever or wheel in a watch), the context sometimes gets lost, inadvertently or deliberately ;-) or WORSE, appears distorted! It is like eating a trifle cake which has many discrete components which together give the cake its full taste as opposed to picking a crumb here, a fruit there, etc. Surely, it must be obvious but sometimes necessary to be pointed out...? :cool1:

yajvan
05 August 2014, 11:55 AM
hello and namaste


And extending the watch analogy to a message shared, Yajvan ji, if we cherry-pick a statement (like a lever or wheel in a watch), the context sometimes gets lost, inadvertently or deliberately ;-) or WORSE, appears distorted! It is like eating a trifle cake which has many discrete components which together give the cake its full taste as opposed to picking a crumb here, a fruit there, etc. Surely, it must be obvious but sometimes necessary to be pointed out...? :cool1:

yes, I see your point. Yet to burden the conversation with the same watch analogy, one notes that the 'whole' of the watch is expressed as time. We come to appreciate time. Then one is curious of what makes up this time. Minutes are followed by seconds and micro seconds. This occurs while holding the thought of the time (wholeness) in one's mind. It is when one picks up a compoent of a watch ( a gear) and thinks what can this be part of ? Then the lever, then the moment arm. All becomes curious to the person of how these pieces can form the tick-tick of the clock not to mention keep time. So, the lesson ( for me) is to go from the whole to the part and back again. This is a basic principle ( perhaps not all are aware of) of spiritual unfoldment; and this is how my teacher always taught , of which I have taken note and wish to apply again and again.

pranams

Rohiniranjan
05 August 2014, 12:46 PM
hello and namaste



yes, I see your point. Yet to burden the conversation with the same watch analogy, one notes that the 'whole' of the watch is expressed as time. We come to appreciate time. Then one is curious of what makes up this time. Minutes are followed by seconds and micro seconds. This occurs while holding the thought of the time (wholeness) in one's mind. It is when one picks up a compoent of a watch ( a gear) and thinks what can this be part of ? Then the lever, then the moment arm. All becomes curious to the person of how these pieces can form the tick-tick of the clock not to mention keep time. So, the lesson ( for me) is to go from the whole to the part and back again. This is a basic principle ( perhaps not all are aware of) of spiritual unfoldment; and this is how my teacher always taught , of which I have taken note and wish to apply again and again.

pranams


Of course! The analogies can be interpreted as a whole, or as a part or even 'fitting' parts, and ultimately the important thing is to be able to read and tell the time correctly, unless one wants to become a watch repair-person, which is a noble avocation too :-)

That is the beauty about life and its pursuits, Yajvan ji. It is what we bring to life is what we get back from life and essentially is that not what karma is conceptually all about in a practical sense?

yajvan
05 August 2014, 04:27 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


As far as I know, Yajvan ji, the logic trail (but perhaps not the inherent LOGIC!) is missing from much of jyotish foundation blocks which are taken as acceptable axiomatic truths, although in some cases some sort of a logic can be perceived by us modern kaliyugis.
I am of a different opinion... trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is one thing. Havng jyotisha-s wiser then many explain the ~rules~ or approach is a gift. Some are offered this gift, others , well not so much.

I rest my case on this matter and believe I have exhausted my point of view. That is, many of the secrets remain so and not put in books. When one finds the eye that sees and is given this information , there's the gift. Yet if one sees only stones and misses the gems within them, then what can one do ? ( This is not meant to infer anyone on this string or within our HDF community, as it seems at times it is taken to be so)

iti śivaṁ

Rohiniranjan
05 August 2014, 06:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


I am of a different opinion... trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is one thing. Have jyotisha-s wiser then many explain the ~rules~ or approach is a gift. Some are offered this gift, others , well not so much.

I rest my case on this matter and believe I have exhausted my point of view. That is, many of the secrets remain so and not put in books. When one finds the eye that sees and is given this information , there's the gift. Yet if one sees only stones and misses the gems within them, then what can one do ? ( This is not meant to infer anyone on this string or within our HDF community, as it seems at times it is taken to be so)

iti śivaṁ


Yajvan ji,

Without differences of opinions, no discussion and no internet forum ;-)
I fully respect your devotional conditioning which you have often expressed and as long as that is not taken as the Holy Grail or the ONLY mode of learning for one and all, I see no problem in such line of thinking!

Human beings are afterall fairly varied beings and derive learning not just from the current lifetime, perhaps? Of course anything can be questioned and assumed etc, but ultimately it all boils down to individual stories of life and the useful service they provide. To other human beings!! And I do not mean just as jyotishis or even psychics or professionals of different kinds with their varied experiences, not all of which have the so called "devotional" components!

All is good and so too varieties of figuring out our personal realities! Just like your shoe size would not be the same as that of others, or glove sizes, as long as your hands and feet are warm and protected from snow and frost-bite, etc -- All is Well, is it not? ;-)

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Mana
06 August 2014, 03:11 AM
Namaste Dear Friends,

If the clock is a tool used in conjunction with a deep ancestral knowledge of stars and deva, a little divine instinct for praśna; one might navigate through, perhaps even understand a little of life's inherent hidden depth along the way.
I would certainly hope that my guides have more than just a little working knowledge of the tools at hand ...


http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d52797/d5279747l.jpg


Else I miss the point entirely.


http://oi61.tinypic.com/2ewhdux.jpg


Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
06 August 2014, 07:29 AM
LOL Manaji!

Your math-musings were a lot easier to (?)follow(?)...! ;-)

Like they say, 'It is all relative...!'

Cheers!

Rohiniranjan

Mana
07 August 2014, 01:45 PM
Dear RR,

Please forgive me for saying such as I wish only to be honest; I find at times that you have the most curious syntax, and in consequence, very hard to understand ...

Anyways that aside, follow your nose RR.
I have made a simple visual reference to Ch1 of Bṛhat Parāśara Horāśāstra.

Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
07 August 2014, 01:58 PM
Dear RR,

Please forgive me for saying such as I wish only to be honest; I find at times that you have the most curious syntax, and in consequence, very hard to understand ...

Anyways that aside, follow your nose RR.
I have made a simple visual reference to Ch1 of Bṛhat Parāśara Horāśāstra.

Kind regards.

Haha! Likewise, I am sure ;-)

But, seriously, it was not your syntax that was getting in the way or making your math etc. inscrutable...!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Mana
07 August 2014, 02:11 PM
Dear RR,

Fractal boundaries are a wonderful subject; you might enjoy investigating them further; if you wish to understand the mountain from another perspective. I am quite sure that it is not you intelligence that render my words inscrutable to you; simply a matter of perspective.

As Yajvan Ji has said it is a marvel to wonder at the depths of the ṛṣi's amazing vision; to try to understand a little more; Above all else, so as to improve our own ability's as a Jyotiṣa.

I am backing out of this conversation now and thank you for your thoughts on the daśa systems.

Kind regards.

Rohiniranjan
07 August 2014, 02:59 PM
Dear RR,

Fractal boundaries are a wonderful subject; you might enjoy investigating them further; if you wish to understand the mountain from another perspective. I am quite sure that it is not you intelligence that render my words inscrutable to you; simply a matter of perspective.
...
Kind regards.


Dear Mana ji,

I have no misgivings about Fractals not being a wonderful subject! I recall that you are fairly conversant with the workings of human mind and hence must possibly be aware of the concept of "amorphous presence" that I believe comes from the realm of psychoanalysis-psychotherapy. In photographic realm, it is akin to the 'perfect grey' that is utilized for setting up a camera for capturing a picture in different conditions of lighting (illumination?). Combining the two concepts, what emerges is that often we can see *things and patterns* which arise just by happenstance and one may say are of questionable relevance even when they seem to be correlated and thus 'coincidental'!

A similar phenomenon is when folks see (meaningful) shapes and patterns in the clouds and in flames. It is known as pareidolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

For most individuals, it can be a curious and even engaging pastime, although in shamanistic practices (and similar) these form useful and meaningful omens. At other times, those are meaningless just as the famous "human face on Mars" that the above wiki article describes. A very similar situation exists in Sedona, Arizona behind an 'energy spot' which is a christian church with sandstones that show the shapes of Mary and Jesus and the nuns guarding those Holy symbols. Curiously, across from them is another rock formation (I have a photograph if you wish to see) which has the unmistakable shape of Lord Ganapati and the mighty elephant Airavat, next to each other. None of these were carved by human hands, but by Nature, through years of movements of winds and rains etc.!

Jyotish is a rather curious subject which captures a snapshot of pretty much all human endeavours and activities and facets and for the skilled astrologer, it can depict the entire movie of lifetimes as you perhaps would agree!

Being so inclusive and comprehensively such a magnificient mental construct/framework, it is a small wonder that there would be significant correlative bridges between Jyotish and not just math, but other human subjects and disciplines.

So the mathematical pareidolia that we have observed, is not what I am expressing disbelief towards, if that is what you think is going on here! :-) The same correlative linkages can and have been drawn between poetry and jyotish, certain mechanistic aspects of science and jyotish and other disciplines.

All of these are to be marvelled at but not necessarily to be considered as the critical or definitive underpinnings of what makes Jyotish tick! Since it encompasses all human endeavours and disciplines and hence must have elements of the latter?

We are back to the clock, again -- it seems, or rather "sounds"? <LOL>

Since you seem to have lost interest in further elaborating the tenuous linkages in your fractal hypothesis, or perhaps feel incapable of doing so (and that is okay!), I shall respect your wishes and file away your proposed conceptualization, for the time being. Perhaps after you have thought through and become more familiar with it, you might wish to try again or perhaps move on to another conceptualization which has more promise!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Mana
08 August 2014, 01:22 AM
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Rohiniranjan
08 August 2014, 07:30 AM
6 circles
6 triangles within the inner-most circle
8+16 trianguloids within the hierarchy of 5 more
Musings of the seeing-mind...
Within the confines of structured rectilinear shapes!

All really the dynamic *lines* some straight, some curved
In essence all shapes (even those in clouds?) made by **points**

And that, my friends, is the POINT! ;-)

Don't let the mind wander like the hapless butterfly or moth
For pareidolia will show only what you know or have seen
Meditate on the point and the Universe shall unfold,
Before the eyes of your aware self that sleeps within!

Love, Light, Insight,

Rohiniranjan

Mana
09 August 2014, 06:35 AM
Dear RR Ji,

This is santAna dharma, I have no doubt about the interrelated nature of everything. As such, I find your pareidolia analogy to be rather off the mark; We are not talking about the same thing at all.

I don't mean random patterns; that is an often misconstrued notion of fractal mathematics, and a rather Cartesian view.
I mean these patterns emerging from the inherent limits of a system ... do you not see this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yaqUI4b974

Akash contains the system; Sun heats water, water rises (agni does this) clouds form in the air (vayu), rain falls (jala), on to the earth (prithvi) with out which there is no river.

Can you not see the striking cyclic pattern forming in the clouds? Rather mundane perhaps, but alas it also makes the sky blue.

Don't let go of the spiritual sadhana; for pure relevant nimita, one can not see without this. Patterns are not found in the physical clouds them selves, that is an overly objective view, but in the somewhat more subjective timing of events and their relevance to thoughts and feelings at that time ...

90% ineffectual I will agree fully; but that 10% ...

Rather than a percentage of the whole, which might be rather misleading; as previously stated and for the very same reason of iteration, such that I shall iterate no further:

I prefer to use the ratio: 108:120; before the Cartesian sum of that is 10%.
I have no more to offer on this subject.

Warm regards,

Over and out ...

Rohiniranjan
09 August 2014, 08:20 AM
Manaji,

Just pointing out the *holes* in what to your mind might seem like uncontestable :-)



Dear RR Ji,

This is santAna dharma, I have no doubt about the interrelated nature of everything. As such, I find your pareidolia analogy to be rather off the mark; We are not talking about the same thing at all.
RR: Mana ji, many of us believe in the *inter-relatedness* and while pareidolia may seem like curious pastime to you, for those who read omens etc (shamanistic pursuits) the shapes etc can give meaningful information! It is this obsessive angst of certain individuals to think that they can reduce everything to this or that or another fancy math without having the intellectual wherewithal of being able to explain it (without throwing a tantrum or fit!) is where the problem lies! ;-) Pareidolia is simply the phenomenon of seeing FAMILIAR shapes in UNfamiliar or UNusual places, like clouds or flames etc.

I don't mean random patterns; that is an often misconstrued notion of fractal mathematics, and a rather Cartesian view.
I mean these patterns emerging from the inherent limits of a system ... do you not see this?
RR: If you can demonstrate this, then perhaps your claim might hold water, but you have not managed to fully bake the dough that you had meant to be a delectable cookie/biscuit (let alone sustenance!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yaqUI4b974

Akash contains the system; Sun heats water, water rises (agni does this) clouds form in the air (vayu), rain falls (jala), on to the earth (prithvi) with out which there is no river.
RR: Yes, but this is the case only in a local 'system' and not the case generally - in what one thinks of as universe! Unless you wish to go pre-copernican or follow the dictates of the era of ignorant religion/religious heads?

Can you not see the striking cyclic pattern forming in the clouds? Rather mundane perhaps, but alas it also makes the sky blue.
RR: See this last statement is where your thinking pattern gets limited! It does not *make* the sky blue, but only makes it seem that way (blue) and while perception translates into immediate reality, we are dealing with something infinitely larger where you have worked yourself into (and floundering!)

Don't let go of the spiritual sadhana; for pure relevant nimita, one can not see without this. Patterns are not found in the physical clouds them selves, that is an overly objective view, but in the somewhat more subjective timing of events and their relevance to thoughts and feelings at that time ...
RR: The flaw in your thinking is that the objective or perhaps underlying principle is not the Universe moving clouds into a shape for the benefit of a scryer or omenologist, but the omenologist deriving meaningful information from within (innersource) through observing the shapes. Thinking otherwise would be mighty egocentric, would it not? The universe moving the flames so that the shaman can see...? <LOL>

90% ineffectual I will agree fully; but that 10% ...
RR: Where was this survey or demographic experiment done, Mana ji? How did you come out with that estimate (or guesstimate or pure wild guess, perhaps?). Were the other numbers and math coming from the same source, as well?

Rather than a percentage of the whole, which might be rather misleading; as previously stated and for the very same reason of iteration, such that I shall iterate no further:

I prefer to use the ratio: 108:120; before the Cartesian sum of that is 10%.
I have no more to offer on this subject.
RR: Now you are being a tad more forthcoming. You can prefer to use whatever, but it remains but a curious observation or an amusing line of thinking, but hardly a fact or even truth as it might apply to reality that your hypothesis might be alluding to or trying to...!

Warm regards,

Over and out ...

I shall respond to any additional remarks only if you are making any progress in your current thinking (the hypothesis) rather than wishing others to just take your word and follow you in the ovian/ovidian manner that prevails in certain micro-communities ;-)

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan