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Believer
26 July 2010, 08:36 PM
I would like ONLY our Sikh friends in this forum to help me with my understanding, or lack thereof, of our almost identical/slightly diverging spiritual paths. If my thought process is flawed at any point, it was by no means meant to show any disrespect, and I would like to be corrected on that.

As per my understanding of the Sikh practices,

1. The Guru Granth Sahib is considered the Guru.
2. The Guru (in the form of) Guru Granth Sahib is given a place of honor, which is decorated with flowers and symbols; and the scripture covered with nice/expensive pieces of cloth.
3. Everyone prostates before this Holy book which represents the Guru.
4. Hymns are read/sung from this Holy book and the Pathi explains their meaning.
5. A food plate is kept by the side for the blessing of the Guru, which is mixed with the rest of the food to make it Langar.

In Hinduism,

1. The devotees prostrates before a deity, which represents God Himself.
2. God (in the form of deity) is given a place of honor on the alter and is decorated with tilak, nice outfits and flowers.
3. Hymns are read from Bhagwad Gita and their meaning explained in the form of a Pravachan.
4. Food offered to and blessed by the Lord is mixed with the rest of the food to make it Prasadam.


In one case I am supposed to believe that some ordinary paper with hymns printed on it becomes sacred and represents the Guru; while in the other case, clay or marble or a piece of wood formed into a deity represents God Himself.

In one case devotees prostrate before the Book representing the Guru; in the other case they do it before the deity representing the Lord Himself.

In both cases, they read/sing hymns which essentially define their dharma.

Both eat the food sanctified by the presence of divinity in their middle.

In both cases people are exercising their beliefs in front of a Guru or a Deity.

Why the acrimony?

On a different note,
Regarding the caste system in Hinduism, Boota Singh has been cabinet minister in many central governments in India because he represented the Dalits and the Sikhs. And the people working in the crematoriums in Punjab are served food outside of the main dining area of a Gurdwara. We do have Dalits among Sikhs too. It is something culturally rooted amongst people of all religions there.

We have so many varnas and social groupings in Hinduism. If one were to check the matrimonial section of any Sunday paper in Punjab or Delhi, one would see the various groupings that the prospective Sikh brides/grooms belong to, and the request that suitable matching families from those groupings only need apply.

Why can’t we just accept the fact that we have two sets of books in two different languages meant to meet the spiritual needs of people based on their religious affiliation? Why do the beliefs/practices of one have to be shown as better than the other? Why can't we accept that some of our common deficiencies are culturally rooted. Most of all, why must each group pick apart what they consider to be deficiencies of the other and gloat over them?

darshansingh
27 July 2010, 06:35 PM
I completely agree with your last sentence. People who think their religion is superior are the stupidest people. Especially true for hindus and sikhs whose religion preaches that everything and everybody is manifestation of God.

I would like to make just few comments ( to highlight the difference):
1. Sikhs who practice the caste system are doing it opposite of what the religion tells. Basically, they can't defend their practice by quoting religious text.
2. The halwa becomes prasad only by Kirpan, not by sitting besides the guru granth. And all prasad is eaten, nothing is left for the "guru"

Not a ideological difference, but a practice difference, is amount of time visitors spend in listening to the kirtan. The times I have visited the temple with my hindu friends, they just rang the bell, did matha-tek, took prasad and out.

Harjas Kaur
29 July 2010, 01:03 AM
As per my understanding of the Sikh practices,

1. The Guru Granth Sahib is considered the Guru.

In Hinduism,

1. The devotees prostrates before a deity, which represents God Himself.

Forgive my intrusion into this forum. I don't know that this post will go through, but on occasion something is written on internet and left unclarified and this leads to nothing but confusion which is then manipulated by political people with an agenda to divide. And that I find to be the biggest tragedy.

1. The Guru Granth Sahib is considered the Guru.
vs.
1. The devotees prostrates before a deity, which represents God Himself.

First of all, Sikhism has a lineage of 10 dedhari (in the body) Gurus who have all died. All 10 are believed to be One Jyot which was merged in God Consciousness and cannot die. According to ancient traditions the Guru is the same as God.

Guru Gita Verse 32Verse 32 of the Guru Gita states

"Gurubrahma guruvisnurgururdevo mahesvarah Gurureva parabrahma tasmai srigurave namah"

Guru is Brahma, the Guru is Visnu, the Guru is Lord Maheswara. The Guru is actually the Supreme Divinity and therefore we bow down to the respected Guru. Therefore what does this mantra mean then: "gurubrahma guruvisnur gururdevo mahesvarah gurursakshat parabrahma tasmai srigurave namah"


The Guru is actually the Supreme Divinity...
http://www.shreemaa.org/drupal/guru_gita_0
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਨਾਦੰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%B0) ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਵੇਦੰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%B0) ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਰਹਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਸਮਾਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88) ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 2
------------------------------

aacaaryam maam vijaaniyaan naavamanyeta karhichit na martya-buddhyaasuyeta sarva-devamayo guruh "Know the acharya to be as good as Myself. Never disrespect him. Never envy him or consider him as an ordinary man for he is the sum total of all the demigods."

~Srimad Bhagavatam 11.17.27
---------------------------------------------

shikshaa-guruke ta'jani krsihnera svarupa antaryaami, bhakti-shrestha ei dui rupa " One should know the shiksha guru to be Krishna Himself. As guru Krishna has two forms__as the Supersoul and as the best of devotees."

~Chaitanya-caritamrita, Aadi Leela 1.47---------------------------------

ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਗਾ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
Gur cẖarṇī jin man lagā se vadbẖāgī mā▫e.
Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother.

ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
Gur ḏāṯā samrath gur gur sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੨॥
Gur parmesar pārbarahm gur dubḏā la▫e ṯarā▫e. ||2||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||

ਕਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥੁ ॥
Kiṯ mukẖ gur salāhī▫ai karaṇ kāraṇ samrath.
How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?

ਸੇ ਮਥੇ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਰਹੇ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਹਥੁ ॥
Se mathe nihcẖal rahe jin gur ḏẖāri▫ā hath.
Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.

ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਆਲਿਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਾ ਪਥੁ ॥
Gur amriṯ nām pī▫āli▫ā janam maran kā path.
The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਦੁਖ ਲਥੁ ॥੩॥
Gur parmesar sevi▫ā bẖai bẖanjan ḏukẖ lath. ||3||
I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away.
~SGGS Ji ang 49
****************************

The tradition is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the 10th Master placed His own Jyot into the Adi Granth and gave the Shabad Gurbani within the pages the Gurgaddi. So let's take another look at that first tuuk/verse:


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਨਾਦੰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%B0) ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਵੇਦੰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%B0) ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਰਹਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਸਮਾਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88) ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਈਸਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%88%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਗੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਗੋਰਖੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%96%E0%A9%81) ਬਰਮਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE) ਗੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਪਾਰਬਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਮਾਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88) ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

From the Primal Nada comes the Sound current which is Guru's words. And later in Japji Sahib it says:


ਅਖਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਨਾਮੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81) ਅਖਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਸਾਲਾਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9) ॥
Akẖrī nām akẖrī sālāh.
From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.

ਅਖਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਗਿਆਨੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81) ਗੀਤ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A4) ਗੁਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3) ਗਾਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9) ॥
Akẖrī gi▫ān gīṯ guṇ gāh.
From the Word, comes spiritual wisdom, singing the Songs of Your Glory.
~SGGS Ji ang 4

So we see these Vedic Sanskrit concepts which are rooted in Sruti being expressed in Guru Granth Sahib.


Veda are those fundamental Tattva’s, from whom the Cosmos has sprung up and grown. That Veda which we know - has been termed as ‘Shabda Veda’. The foundation of Shabda Veda is ‘Tattva Veda’, which is all-pervading in the cosmos. It is only on the foundation of Tattva Veda that, Veda Grantha’s have been written by the Rishi’s...

That Akshara-Brahma, which having a central-appearance, self-originates in the womb of Jagada-Janani Mahamaya, and thus grants five Kala’s to a nishkal Awyaya thereby making it sakala is known as Param-Brahma. http://knol.google.com/k/tattva-veda#

Now I am not a Vedic scholar, but I think it's clear that the "theology" of Sikhism is rooted in the Sruti of the Vedas. The Ek Akshara Shabda Brahma is a form of Parabrahm.

The Gayatri Mantra http://z.about.com/
Part 2: Inner Meaning & Analysis
The First Word Om (Aum)
"It is also called Pranav because its sound emanates from the Prana (vital vibration), which feels the Universe. The scripture says "Aum Iti Ek Akshara Brahman" (Aum that one syllable is Brahman)." http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa061003b.htm

ੴ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A9%B4) ਸਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ਨਾਮੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81) ਕਰਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ਪੁਰਖੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%96%E0%A9%81) ਨਿਰਭਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%89) ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਅਕਾਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2) ਮੂਰਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ਅਜੂਨੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80) ਸੈਭੰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%88%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%B0) ਗੁਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0) ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BF) ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~
~SGGS Ji ang 1

Ik▫oaʼnkār
Ek Omkar
Ek Akshara Aumkara

Really, we are in root basic terminology only talking about the same concepts which are modernly encrusted over with a multitude of obscurities to forge divisions and differences.

Harjas Kaur
29 July 2010, 01:41 AM
2. The Guru (in the form of) Guru Granth Sahib is given a place of honor, which is decorated with flowers and symbols; and the scripture covered with nice/expensive pieces of cloth.

In Hinduism,

2. God (in the form of deity) is given a place of honor on the alter and is decorated with tilak, nice outfits and flowers.

Actually.... to show how superficial are these "differences."


ਜਿਤਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਢਾਇ ॥
Jiṯne bẖagaṯ har sevkā mukẖ aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath ṯin ṯilak kadẖā▫e.
All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, the ceremonial mark, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.
~SGGS Ji p. 733
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Even the Sikh Guru is wearing tilak mark (and bearing a "caste" name).

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
Rāmḏās sodẖī ṯilak ḏī▫ā gur sabaḏ sacẖ nīsāṇ jī▫o. ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad.
~SGGS Ji ang 723
------------------------------------------------------------------
And if that isn't enough similarity, according to Gurbani, even God, in the roop of Vishnu, is wearing tilak.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar mālā ṯilak birājiṯ ḏekẖ parṯāp jam dari▫o.
He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.
~SGGS Ji ang 1105

http://students.ou.edu/L/Jillian.S.Lombardi-1/vishnu2.jpg

In Sikhism, the Guru Granth Sahib is treated as a Living Guru because the Shabad Bani and mantra NAAMs of the Lord's names are in it and are considered to be a boat of mukti if you jap them, or sing the sankirtana of the Lord's praise.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
Gur sabaḏ kamā▫i▫ā a▫ukẖaḏẖ har pā▫i▫ā har kīraṯ har sāʼnṯ pā▫e jī▫o.
Acting in accordance with the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the medicine of the Lord's Name is obtained. Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, divine peace is obtained.
~SGGS Ji ang 446
--------------------------------------------

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜੀਅਰੇ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੩॥
Har jap jī▫are cẖẖutī▫ai gurmukẖ cẖīnai āp. ||3||
Chanting the Name of the Lord, O my soul, you shall be emancipated; as Gurmukh, you shall come to understand your own self.
~SGGS Ji ang 20
-------------------------------------------
ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥
Mil sāḏẖsangaṯ bẖaj keval nām. ||1||
Joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, vibrate and meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 378
-------------------------------------------

"Many of you, as spiritual seekers, would be practicing japa sadhana. When you were initiated you would have been told that you should do japa,Tat japah jadarthabhavanah - the recitation, chanting or japa of the mantra is to be accompanied by a contemplation on its importance or meaning. As a matter of fact, japa, according to Patanjali, is not merely a mechanical chanting of the Name, although chanting is also Japa, but it is tadartha bhavana or the contemplation on the meaning of the mantra. To give an instance, 'Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya' is a mantra. Chanting this is japa. Japa can be of two kinds: external verbal japa, as well as internal manasika japa, or mental japa. Japa is the repetition of a mantra, which is a mysterious group of letters or phrases so connected with one another that when the mantra is chanted a peculiar sensation or vibration is generated in the entire system. That is the difference between ordinary words or sentences or groups of phrases and a mantra. A mantra is the result of a vision of a seer and it is the concrete manifestation of the deity or devata through the world of language, which is made to manifest in the mantra." http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/disc/disc_90.html

Harjas Kaur
29 July 2010, 02:13 AM
3. Everyone prostates before this Holy book which represents the Guru.

In Hinduism,

3. Hymns are read from Bhagwad Gita and their meaning explained in the form of a Pravachan.

I don't believe that all Hindu sects routinely read Bhagavad-Gita in their temples. So I don't see what this comparison is trying to show. I do believe that bowing is a cultural sign of respect shown to a Guru or devata in every Hindu sect. Just as Hindu's will object to worship shown to murthi being mischaracterized as worship of an inanimate object, so a Sikh will object that he is bowing down to a Holy "Book or a mere "representation." A Sikh submits to the Shabad-Jyot which resides in the words of Guru's bani and the Naams of the Lord which are originating from mantras.

So in this respect, a Hindu will worship a certain form and the Sikh will worship another, but both are worshipping the actual One Absolute Divine which is pervading in all forms.


"April 13, 1919, fifty British Indian Army soldiers, under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer, opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted for ten to fifteen minutes, until ammunition was running short. [1] Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379, and with 1,100 wounded.[2] Civil Surgeon Dr Smith indicated that there were 1,526 casualties.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre



"On 2 May 1905, Arur Singh, the manager of the Golden Temple, ordered the removal of a large number of images from it's precincts. This single measure precipitated a fierce public controversy all over the province, with members of the Singh Sabha, the Arya Samaj, the Brahmo Samaj and several other key socio-religious organizations leaping into the fray. In addition the general public, particularly Sikh soldiers, exhibited a keen interest in these lively proceedings.

In less than a month, two distinct positions crystallized over the idol controversy: one side supported Arur Singh and the other chose to vilify him. The Tat Khalsa aligned with the temple manager and advanced a series of reasons for backing his fiat. These merit close attention if the changing vision and constitution of sacred space among the Sikhs is to be properly understood."

~The Construction of religious boundaries: Culture, Identity, and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition, by Harjot Oberoi, p. 323

http://books.google.com/books?id=1NKC9g2ayJEC&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=aroor+singh+tat+khalsa&source=bl&ots=b98noH2IYX&sig=jPl8OjnUsd0_-8f7q32K0hQWnh8&hl=en&ei=DxIzTIPpH4PcnAfFx_TXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Moreover it needs to be said that original Sikh tradition was sanatan, and origin of this term comes from the shared Hindu Dharma. In 1905 the British Raj had installed a caretaker of the central Harimandir Gurdwara after the reform Singh Sabha had usurped power from the original Sanatan Singh Sabha. This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history. Traditionally the pujaris and mahants of the Udasi and Nirmalay sects were the caretakers of the Sikh Gurdwaras. This British appointed "jathedar" not only did he place a siropa of honor around the neck of General Dyer following the Jallianwalla bagh massacre committed by the British against own Punjabis,

but in 1905 he REMOVED the murthis from the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple). It is known that removed included a lifesized murthi of Vishnu, a murthi of Chandi-Durga, a murthi of Bhagavan Krishna and a murthi of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

So it is correct to say Sikh "religion" has been altered by influence of the British with deliberate intent to drive a wedge between Hindu and Sikh community, to oppose Indian Nationalism as pro-British Sikhs worked as soldiers-sepoys upholding British rule. This is the legacy of separation, deliberate distortions, exaggerating differences, even actual editing and manipulative translations of Sikh religion existing to this day.

And if we closely analyze the collection of evidence what emerges from Sikh history is something decidedly and recognizably Hindu in orientation.


While Max Arthur McAuliffe achieved the position of Deputy Commissioner in Punjab in 1882, Macauliffe wrote the popular Tat Khalsa text. ‘It is admitted that a knowledge of the religions of the people of India is a desideratum for the British officials who administer its affairs and indirectly for the people who are governed by them so that mutual sympathy may be produced. It seems, at any rate politic to place before theSikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty.’ ‘The Sikh Religion’,1909, M.A. Macauliffe, Preface xxii



From the above quote, it is clear that one of the main objectives for Macauliffe was to inculcate loyalty within Sikhs for the British Raj. At the time, the SanatanSikh Raj had been displaced by the British Raj, and as such, Sanatan Sikhs, especially the Akali Nihangs, were naturally very hostile towards the British. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatan_Singh_Sabha#cite_note-1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatan_Singh_Sabha

Harjas Kaur
29 July 2010, 02:25 AM
In one case I am supposed to believe that some ordinary paper with hymns printed on it becomes sacred and represents the Guru; while in the other case, clay or marble or a piece of wood formed into a deity represents God Himself.

I find you have a lot to learn about other people's religion. 1. You aren't "supposed" to believe in anything. But hopefully you can respect what other people do believe in and tolerate that.

"In one case I am supposed to believe that some ordinary paper with hymns printed on it becomes sacred and represents the Guru;"

Sikhs don't worship a "book." They worship the Sruti Truth in the Shabda, the beej mantra syllables of the Names of the Lord as being capable of creating a vibrational Presence of the Shabda Parabrahmha directly.

"while in the other case, clay or marble or a piece of wood formed into a deity represents God Himself."

Because of the mantras, and the prayers and the thoughts and vibrational energy of the worshippers, ordinary objects are made to contain shakti, which again is energetic vibrational Presence. I'm sorry if you cannot accept, do not believe, or cannot understand this.

But neither a Sikh nor a Hindu can be described as "believing" what you have written in your paragraph.

Harjas Kaur
29 July 2010, 03:09 AM
In one case devotees prostrate before the Book representing the Guru; in the other case they do it before the deity representing the Lord Himself.

In both cases, they read/sing hymns which essentially define their dharma.

There is only One Dharma. All Dharmic religions observe this, be they Jain, Buddhist, Hindu's, or Sikhs.

Again modern Tat Khalsa Sikhs will define Sanskrit and Braj terms differently to exaggerate the differences. But the Adi Granth, Sarbloh Granth and Dasam Granth were written primarily as translations from Sanskrit and Braj or actually in Sanskrit and Braj. So, having brahmin Sanskrit scholars in the very households of the Gurus and having the sanatan sects of Udasis and Nirmalay being themselves Sanskrit scholars, only the conundrum of modern "re-interpretation" of these ancient terms and philsophical concepts becomes "separate" and "problematic."

Prior to the British sponsored Tat Khalsa movement 100 years ago, the Sanatan Hindu-Sikh community respected the Vedic and Puranic origins of these teachings. It makes no sense logically whatsoever that Shri Dasam Granth contains Devi Mahatmyam in praise of Devi, or that Shri Guru Granth Sahib describes the sargun God in terms of Vishnu's das avtaray and suddenly we have to "reject" that Dharma to "Sikhs" means one thing and "Dharma" to Hindu's suddenly means another.


Hindu means of the culture and heritage of the Indus Valley.

Sikh (derived from Sanskrit [Indic] word Shishya) means a disciple of a Guru.

Guru-Shishya relationship originates in Vedic Hindu Dharmic tradition.

And Panth means "path" not "religion."

Why the acrimony?
Because the British Raj ruled by creating divisions and mischief like altering and editing scriptures to divide and conquer and keep the population subjected, ignorant and subservient. All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed. The British brought Muslim Butchers into Amritsar to sell cow meat and promote meat eating, particularly among the British soldiery/Indian sepoys aka Sikhs.

They were met with an uprising from the Sikh Namdhari sect which killed the Muslim butchers for committing what was always a crime in Sikh ruled Punjab under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The same Sikhs who call God after Krishna Naams, including Gopala and Govinda, Protector of the world and protector of the cows, fought to the death and received torture of being blown apart by cannons in massacres to terrorize the population into submission.

After this, the British worked with M.K. Gandhi and Nehru to divide the Punjab in partition giving Sikh territories to "Pakistan," deceived Sikh leaders about giving Sikhs back a kingdom in the form of "Khalistan," Millions were dislocated, beaten, raped, tortured, killed during the riots and madness of partition creating huge scars and blame against Indian government for failing to defend Sikh interests.

There's just a lot of bad political history with Akali Dal morcha/agitation to promote Anandpur Resolution and the weakness of the Indira government in emergency to appropriately and diplomatically reach an accord with those points of grievance. After all that transpired, asking for recognition of language, respecting state boundaries, capitol of Chandigarh and some sugar mills, seems a tiny demand. At this time too, Sant Bhindranwale began lashing out at the "servitude of the Sikhs as second class citizens in India and promoted independant state of Khalistan, there precipitated an armed confrontation, an attack on Golden temple with resulting casualties of innocent unarmed pilgrims, resulting in retaliatory assassination of Mrs. Gandhi. Subsequent retaliatory anti-Sikh riots in which thousands were raped and killed and properties destroyed. Subsequent anti-Indian government uprising which lasted twenty years and which succeeded by colluding with Pakistani terrorists. Subsequent gallughara against Sikh militants and their families by Punjabi police which resulted in extra-judicial killings, disappearances, rapes, tortures, etc. and finally suppressed the militancy.

Why the acrimony? Because we live in Kaliyuga, and people are just messed up. Because this has been a long, sad, miserable war of brother hating brother. And I hope and pray that it should heal and end for all time, and that land of Bharat will truly be Nation bright and shining in Dharmic justice as well as economic justice and success.

http://sikhswolverhampton.org.uk/WebImages/GurTeghBahadur/GurTeghBahadur2.gif
Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji's shaheedi for being willing sacrifice to face execution rather than be forced to convert to Islam. (For which He became known as the Hindu di Chaddur, blanket of protection of the Hindus, because His action spared the destruction of the Kashmiri pandits from same fate of forced conversion.)


ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥
darookrisan tin ke sut vae|| Tin te Teg Bahaadar bhae||12||
Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
Tilak janjhoo raakhaa Prabh taa kaa|| Koono bado kaloo maih saakaa||
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
Saadhan het(i) itoo jin(i) daroo|| Soos(u) dooaa par soo na ucdaroo||13||
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.


ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
Dharam het(i) saakaa jin kooaa|| Soos(u) dooaa par sirar(u) na dooaa||
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 131

Harjas Kaur
29 July 2010, 03:41 AM
On a different note,
Regarding the caste system in Hinduism,
Why does everyone always go there?


Boota Singh has been cabinet minister in many central governments in India because he represented the Dalits and the Sikhs. And the people working in the crematoriums in Punjab are served food outside of the main dining area of a Gurdwara. We do have Dalits among Sikhs too. It is something culturally rooted amongst people of all religions there.

We have so many varnas and social groupings in Hinduism. If one were to check the matrimonial section of any Sunday paper in Punjab or Delhi, one would see the various groupings that the prospective Sikh brides/grooms belong to, and the request that suitable matching families from those groupings only need apply.

Modern Tat Khalsa Sikhs in turn with the British Raj loudly condemn Hindu religion on basis of perceived "evils" and injustices of caste system. However worst discrimination of casteism and obsessive concerns regarding jati evolved in correlation with racist colonial system of British.


ਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥
Bedoo bhae prasann raaj kah paae kai|| Det bhayo bardaan hooai hulsaae kai||
Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased. With happy heart, he predicted this boon:

ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥
Jab Naanak kal(i) mai ham aan kahaae-hain|| Ho jagad pooj kar(i) toh(i) param pad paae-hain||7||
“When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak, you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world.”7.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
Dohraa||
DOHRA

ਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥
Lavoo raaj de ban gad Bedooan koono raaj||
The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest, and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥
Bhaant(i) bhaant(i) tin(i) bhogooyang bhooa kaa sakal samaaj||8||
They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
Chaupaee||
CHAUPAI

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥
Tritooa Bed sunbo tum kooaa|| Chatur Bed sun(i) bhooa ko dooaa||
“O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas, and while listening to the fourth, you gave away your kingdom.

ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥
Tin janam ham-hoon jab dharihain|| Chauthe janam Guroo tuh(i) karihain||9||
“When I shall have taken three births, you will be made the Guru in he fourth birth.”9.

ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਹਿ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥
Ut raajaa kaananah(i) sidhaayo|| It in raaj karat such paayo||
That (Sodhi) king left for the forest, and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib p. 128

According to Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth, Sikh religion did not (yes contrary to Tat Khalsa ideology) "reject" the Caste system. Dasam Granth speaks plainly about Bedi and Sodhi dynasty of Khatri/kshattriya caste being descended from Luva and Kusha, the sons of Shri Ramachandra of Avodhya. It simply restored the original Vedic conception which was propagated by the Vaishnav sants and bhagats of North India which influenced the culture during time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

So just as some Vaishnav sects accepted women, such as famous bhakta Mirabai, famous mleccha/Muslim born Vaishnav Sant Kabir Ji, and famous low caste bhagat Ravidas...
these radical reform teachings influenced Sikhism. Meaning, it was Vaishnavism's radical bhakti sants who included traditionally shunned classes into the sadhsangat (women, outcastes and lower castes as spiritual equals and true brahmanas) in literal conformity with Bhagavan Krishna's teachings in the Gita.


I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him.

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.

O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth — women, vaiśyas [merchants] and śūdras [workers] — can attain the supreme destination.
~Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 9.25-32

And commentary: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower and higher classes of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (2.4.18) it is stated that even the lowest, who are called caṇḍālas (dog-eaters), can be purified by association with a pure devotee." http://vedabase.net/bg/9/32/en


ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥
Aḏẖam cẖandālī bẖa▫ī barahmaṇī sūḏī ṯe sarėstā▫ī re.
The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.
~SGGS Ji ang 381

Believer
30 July 2010, 02:24 PM
Darshan Singhji,

Thank you very much for stopping by and taking the time to read and respond to the post.

Respectfully, I would like to have a heart to heart talk about the issues raised and try to remain mindful of your feelings.




I would like to make just few comments ( to highlight the difference):
1. Sikhs who practice the caste system are doing it opposite of what the religion tells. Basically, they can't defend their practice by quoting religious text.

It is not an accusation and we don't have to be defensive at all. If I were a sikh, I would not be giving away my educated, good looking daughter to an uneducated/uncultured, not so good looking person with low moral values and one who does not make enough money to support a family, just because the religious text says so. It is a matter of being practical regardless of whether it is sanctioned by the scriptures or not. In the South, there are separate churches among christians for converts from the Dalits and from other strata of society. Well off and better looking muslims don't associate with lower class muslims either. Heck, even in the good old USA, an African American woman with straight hair and relatively fairer skin commands a better match than just another ordinary african-american. We humans are the only species that have a sense of aesthetics and care about the looks of a prospective mate. Only in Hinduism, it gets called caste system and Hindus are vilified for that. I, for one, will not make any excuses and not ask for anybody's understanding/forgiveness for doing what is practical and what all humans do, regardless of whether the scriptural authority sanctions it or not. Not going to hide behind a technicality on this point!




2. The halwa becomes prasad only by Kirpan, not by sitting besides the guru granth. And all prasad is eaten, nothing is left for the "guru"

Just for my understanding, what exactly do you mean the halwa becoming prasad by the Kirpan? In our local Gurudwara in California, they place a plate of the food to be served for langar, as well as a huge bowl of halwa for prasad, by the side of the Guru Granth sahib for being sanctified. Traditionally, does it have to be touched by a Kirpan? Is it just a metaphor? Please explain. Thanks.



Not a ideological difference, but a practice difference, is amount of time visitors spend in listening to the kirtan. The times I have visited the temple with my hindu friends, they just rang the bell, did matha-tek, took prasad and out.

That is a good observation. It will always remain like that. The Gurudwara service consists of reciting the Shabad to music. It is soothing to the soul. Beside the spiritual message, it is like attending a classical music concert with the hymns beautifully sung to a raag. It is mesmerizing. That is the best feature of a Sikh service - more of music by trained raagis and less of any lecture. It is very a beautiful way to keep the assembly involved/attentive/entertained with a calming effect.

As an aside, I have heard many times that Sikhism incorporates the best of Hinduism and Islam. I don't get it. To me it is reformed Hinduism, pure and simple. Islamists killed a Guru, entombed two sahabzadas alive; and committed untold atrocities against Sikhs. They made every attempt to convert the whole Sikh community to Islam. They don't want any adultration of their fanatic creed. They hate and killed both hindus and sikhs with equal vengeance at the time of partition. As we can see in today's environment, they cannot co-exist with people of other religions and would like a world domination. There are a handful of verses in the Guru Granth sahib written by mystics who were nominally muslim. Mardana was just another villager who came under the influence of Guru Nanak and should be classified as a sikh rather than a muslim. He surely did not shape/influence Sikh theology.

Why are they given so much prominence in Sikhism as if they had a hand in shaping the Sikh spiritual values? Is this is subconscious way to distance themselves from Hindus and protect their identity? It is hurtful for the two groups - Hindus and Sikhs - born of the same Punjabi blood to be picking on each other all the time. And it is discouraging to hear the claim that Sikhism is Hindusim, reformed as a result of Islamic values/influences. It was reformed because of the Bhakti movement of Guru Nanak and the base values creeping into the "practice" of Hinduism at the time; not because of the Islamic influence. I just hope that some day, the fear that Hindus want to see Sikhism disappear is purged from the Sikh psyche and they find themselves at peace without having to play the "muslim influence" card to protect their identity.

darshansingh
03 August 2010, 03:29 PM
Darshan Singhji,
Thank you very much for stopping by and taking the time to read and respond to the post.
Respectfully, I would like to have a heart to heart talk about the issues raised and try to remain mindful of your feelings.


Thanks. And I enjoy this discussion with you.



We humans are the only species that have a sense of aesthetics and care about the looks of a prospective mate.


Agree totally with you. But being a sikh, its easier to marry with other castes if you have similar educational and social background. I and my wife are from different communities, and ours was an arranged marriage.




Just for my understanding, what exactly do you mean the halwa becoming prasad by the Kirpan? Traditionally, does it have to be touched by a Kirpan? Is it just a metaphor?


Old Hindu/Indian custom in guru parampara was charan amrit. The guru would put a foot in the bowl of water and that water would become "amrit" for all the disciples. This parampara was practised in sikhs when guru-with-human-form existed. Guru Gobind Singh, made Guru Granth Sahib the eternal guru. He also started the practice of Khande-ka-amrit rather than charan-amrit. Thus food becomes prasad when khanda (kripan) passes through the food; along with ardas to Guru/God that "please make this food prasad". In most gurudwaras, when the food is cooked in kitchen, it is sanctified by kirpan and ardas before being served.



As an aside, I have heard many times that Sikhism incorporates the best of Hinduism and Islam. I don't get it. To me it is reformed Hinduism, pure and simple.

The gurus didn't see people as hindus or muslims. On being asked who is better - hindu or muslim - Nanak said "whosoever does good deeds will be accepted in the court of God"
The terms "Hindu" or "Muslim" mean different things to different people. So making generic statements a best-of-hinduism-and-islam doesn't mean anything.
Now the disciples of gurus were both hindus and muslims and detractors also were both hindus and muslims. Guru Arjan Dev was tortured and killed on the orders of Jahangir, but Mannu, a hindu, gave the testimony.
Guru Gobind singh fought 13 or so battles, and 11 of them were against hindu kings of himachal area.
Another hindu gangu betrayed Mata Gujri and two sahibzade, who were eventually entombed. And prince of malerkotla tried to help sahibzade. The sikhs felt so much indebted to the prince of malerkotla that even after 250 years, during the riots of 1947 partition, when utter madness struck everyone, no muslim was killed within the boundaries of malerkotla.

This is just to reiterate that the gurus and hence sikhs are against the tyrants and untruthful exploiting people, not against particular religion.

The definition of God is sikhism is very similar to advaita god with added human-like qualities such as mercy, love and so on; this definition is very different from islamic god. The concepts of cycles of rebirth are same as hinduism. Moksha concept of concept is their in sikhism with a slight difference that "aim-is-not-moksha-but-aim-is-gods-feet". The difference with hinduism is again in practice. Hardly any hindu practices worship of formless god. And some hindus get offended if I don't bow to idols in a temple. This is where some authors will say its similar to islam. There is not much similarity with islam.

Again to say it reformed hinduism may put-off some hindus, who say, we are already the best and complete. We don't need any reformation.

So its safe to say that sikhism is a new religion; which has many similarities with hinduism.

As a note, Mardana, Baba Farid and Kabir were born muslims. Their bani is found in Guru Granth Sahib. The bani of many hindu saints - namdev, ramanand, ravidas, jaidev, dhanna is also in Guru Granth Sahib. Thus when I bow to Guru Granth Sahib, I bow to the word of all of them. A hindu friend of mine was taken aback that in guru granth the synonym of god was also allah along with ram, mohan, giridhar, gopal and so on. Its again our narrow mind who sees the word allah with disdain. Or the actions of present day muslims is giving it a bad name.

Present day sikh anger against hindus is because of the events of 1980s. Sikhs felt betrayed by hindus when Golden temple was attacked and destroyed. Sikhs felt further betrayed when 5000 sikhs were brutally killed in Delhi, and 10000 in the whole country; over a period of 3 days. Sikhs felt betrayed by hindus when they gave Rajiv Gandhi a huge victory just 3 months after the massacre he orchestrated. Sikhs felt betrayed by hindus when after 25 years just 10 people are convicted for the killing of 10000 sikhs. Sikhs feel betrayed when some godmen (ashutosh and sacha sauda guy) does actions to insult sikhs and their gurus; and govt takes no action.
I can go on and on.

Also you will see many posts in this forum who say that guru gobind singh was bhagat of Chandi; and some using the words that sikh gurus were self-styled godmen and such. These people are either uneducated, or silly, or mischievous. I just consider them uneducated. Some sikhs may see them as mischievous which causes further rift.

BryonMorrigan
05 August 2010, 01:23 AM
I personally have nothing but the utmost respect for Sikhs. You guys are like Indian Ninjas. (LOL)

But I never get tired of this sketch, as it's effing hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cVqA8qBOlQ
(There's a similar sketch about Hinduism, but it isn't as funny...)

Believer
05 August 2010, 12:27 PM
Again to say it reformed hinduism may put-off some hindus, who say, we are already the best and complete. We don't need any reformation.

The reformation needed at the time was of its adherents, its practitioners.



Or the actions of present day muslims is giving it a bad name.
I wish I was that charitable!



Present day sikh anger against hindus is because of the events of 1980s. Sikhs felt betrayed by hindus when Golden temple was attacked and destroyed. Sikhs felt further betrayed when 5000 sikhs were brutally killed in Delhi, and 10000 in the whole country; over a period of 3 days. Sikhs felt betrayed by hindus when they gave Rajiv Gandhi a huge victory just 3 months after the massacre he orchestrated. Sikhs felt betrayed by hindus when after 25 years just 10 people are convicted for the killing of 10000 sikhs. Sikhs feel betrayed when some godmen (ashutosh and sacha sauda guy) does actions to insult sikhs and their gurus; and govt takes no action.
I can go on and on.
All the events leading up to, the sad events of 1980 and many of the things since then are a shame; something that should have never happened. But,
1. It should be blamed on certain people and their political leaders and not on an entire community.
2. We must not forget all that, but we must move forward.

Regarding the Govt. acting against people insulting a religion - The Govt. ONLY protects the Islamic and Christian faiths, everything else is fair game. The Govt. is in the business of staying in power at all costs, NOT protecting all. The scion of the royal family is all set for coronation after the current term and the apple cart will not be disturbed to derail that effort.


Also you will see many posts in this forum who say that guru gobind singh was bhagat of Chandi; and some using the words that sikh gurus were self-styled godmen and such. These people are either uneducated, or silly, or mischievous. I just consider them uneducated. Some sikhs may see them as mischievous which causes further rift.
I have one word for them: Insecure; which probably arises out of the 'mine is better than yours' line of thinking.

Believer
05 August 2010, 12:43 PM
But I never get tired of this sketch, as it's effing hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cVqA8qBOlQ
(There's a similar sketch about Hinduism, but it isn't as funny...)

Thanks for the post. It really is hilarious, as is the other one about Hinduism.

darshansingh
05 August 2010, 06:21 PM
All the events leading up to, the sad events of 1980 and many of the things since then are a shame; something that should have never happened. But,
1. It should be blamed on certain people and their political leaders and not on an entire community.
2. We must not forget all that, but we must move forward.


Silent observer of crime is part of the crime. I don't remember any political or religious hindu leader protesting against Blue Star Operation. Or even the killings of 10000 sikhs most of them in the capital of india over three days period. Nobody protested when rajiv gandhi said "Bada Ped Girta...."

I was in school at that time in Delhi. No student or even teacher asked me if all was well with me and my family. In fact, one boy said - tu bach gaya, agli baar nahi bachega. Others have much worse stories than me. So, I implore you to understand our anger.

satay
06 August 2010, 10:39 AM
sat sri akal darshan,

I will start by saying that I do not condone the riots and violence that occured in delhi towards sikhs after the sikh security guards murdered the prime minister of India, Indira Gandhi in broad day light.

That said, while you were growing up in Delhi at the same time I was growing up in Punjab.

I witnessed the terror caused by misguided sikhs first hand. All of my childhood and college friends were sikhs. I lost several of my school friends in the fight for khalistan. Most of us used to travel by bus to go college in the nearby city. The minority hindus like myself didn't know if were going home alive every night because every day buses/trains/cars were being stopped randomly, hindu men singled out, lined and shot in bright day light. Now, this was happening in punjab for several years. This is because pakis were misguiding our youth and training them to be terrorists.

Operation blue star is a shame. No hindu in his right mind would agree with it. However, look at it from another point of view, the golden temple was taken over by the terrorists. It was full of asla, arms, bombs, ak-47 machine guns. What were the police and army to do? Several days they were outside telling the terrorists to come out peacefully. Several army men (hindu and sikhs) lost their lives because they were ambushed by the terrorists. Would you rather have the golden temple under terrorists or would you rather have it free? Remember it is a place of worship, perhaps the most popular if not most sacred place for sikhs if not for all indian citizens.

I hope that you are not one of those sikhs that still want khalistan. No punjabi sikh in his right mind wants a separate nation that will go bankrupt between six months to a year and become a wasteland like the pakiland north to us.




Silent observer of crime is part of the crime. I don't remember any political or religious hindu leader protesting against Blue Star Operation. Or even the killings of 10000 sikhs most of them in the capital of india over three days period. Nobody protested when rajiv gandhi said "Bada Ped Girta...."

I was in school at that time in Delhi. No student or even teacher asked me if all was well with me and my family. In fact, one boy said - tu bach gaya, agli baar nahi bachega. Others have much worse stories than me. So, I implore you to understand our anger.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 12:06 PM
sat sri akal darshan,
Operation blue star is a shame. No hindu in his right mind would agree with it. However, look at it from another point of view, the golden temple was taken over by the terrorists.

Don't have it both ways. Just say whether it should have happened or it. "It was a shame...but ..." doesn't make sense.

Difference in Punjab anti-hindu activities of 1981-84 vs Anti-sikh riots of Nov 1984. Its painful for me to write, I will write it just once; and won't go back and forth. I am not here to win an argument.

1. Number of per-capita murders in Punjab in 1981-84 was 1/6th the per-capita murder of UP, Bihar.
2. Number of sikhs killed by terrorists were more that number of hindus killed.
3. Many murders which may have happened because of usual property disputes were classified as terrorist murders
4. Many police encounters were classified as murders done by terrorists
5. 1984-1992 period in punjab, hundreds of thousand of sikhs were killed and secretly cremated. You understand punjabi. Following is worth a listen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktfuGXpi5qw
Khalra was killed by police for raising this. (many policemen were eventually convicted in his murder)
So, I would just conclude that sikhs were as unsafe in punjab in 80s as were hindus. Hindus were only threatened by terrorists; but sikhs were threatened by both terrorists and police.

Anti-sikh riots were conducted by policemen under the order of politicians. If you are a sikh in delhi; not hiding in some safe place; there was 100 % chance that you would be killed, during those three days.

Its pathetic that I have to state the obvious to people with selective amnesia; who was willing to say "..but.." with the grossest of the acts.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 12:16 PM
I personally have nothing but the utmost respect for Sikhs. You guys are like Indian Ninjas. (LOL)
But I never get tired of this sketch, as it's effing hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cVqA8qBOlQ
(There's a similar sketch about Hinduism, but it isn't as funny...)

This is not just funny; but is so tragic and sarcastic. This is the main reason why so many sikhs do not wear turban anymore, because their parents failed in telling them what it means to be a sikh.

Believer
06 August 2010, 12:17 PM
Harjas Kaurji,

I am eternally greatful to you for spending so much of your valuable time on us "jadds".


I find you have a lot to learn about other people's religion.

Yes, I do. And I apologize for being so dense!



Because of the mantras, and the prayers and the thoughts and vibrational energy of the worshippers, ordinary objects are made to contain shakti, which again is energetic vibrational Presence. I'm sorry if you cannot accept, do not believe, or cannot understand this.


I totally accept/believe/understand that, but have not experienced that sacred "vibrational energy" that I have heard so much about from my "Sahaj Yogi" friends.

Bowing to your presence............

Believer
06 August 2010, 12:38 PM
I was in school at that time in Delhi. No student or even teacher asked me if all was well with me and my family. In fact, one boy said - tu bach gaya, agli baar nahi bachega. Others have much worse stories than me. So, I implore you to understand our anger.



All of my childhood and college friends were sikhs. I lost several of my school friends in the fight for khalistan. Most of us used to travel by bus to go college in the nearby city. The minority hindus like myself didn't know if were going home alive every night because every day buses/trains/cars were being stopped randomly, hindu men singled out, lined and shot in bright day light.

Both of you have experienced much pain first hand.
Let us move past the sad events of the past.
Let the healing begin.
Acid eats away the very pot it is contained in - you both know that.
Shake hands, embrace and be ONE again!

satay
06 August 2010, 12:45 PM
namaste,

I never said, "it was a shame...but..." I offered another point of view.

I was living in punjab and living the terror. I am the one who lost my childhood friends to terrorism. Just like I can't fathom the terror you and other sikhs went through during riots you can't fathom the terrorism that was going on in punjab. Saying that sikhs were in as much danger as hindus doesn't absolve the terrorists from the dispecable acts of murdering innocent men, women and children in punjab. A gursikh can never be that cruel; the only reason why these acts were being committed were because pakis brainwashed our youth.

I don't know where you are getting your data from but with all due respect, I was actually living in punjab during that time...so...

It is pathetic that people are hung up on an empty dream of khali stan because that's what it would've been if terrorists had their way. Last year I was in punjab, no sikh that I met talked about separating from India.



Don't have it both ways. Just say whether it should have happened or it. "It was a shame...but ..." doesn't make sense.

Difference in Punjab anti-hindu activities of 1981-84 vs Anti-sikh riots of Nov 1984. Its painful for me to write, I will write it just once; and won't go back and forth. I am not here to win an argument.

1. Number of per-capita murders in Punjab in 1981-84 was 1/6th the per-capita murder of UP, Bihar.
2. Number of sikhs killed by terrorists were more that number of hindus killed.
3. Many murders which may have happened because of usual property disputes were classified as terrorist murders
4. Many police encounters were classified as murders done by terrorists
5. 1984-1992 period in punjab, hundreds of thousand of sikhs were killed and secretly cremated. You understand punjabi. Following is worth a listen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktfuGXpi5qw
Khalra was killed by police for raising this. (many policemen were eventually convicted in his murder)
So, I would just conclude that sikhs were as unsafe in punjab in 80s as were hindus. Hindus were only threatened by terrorists; but sikhs were threatened by both terrorists and police.

Anti-sikh riots were conducted by policemen under the order of politicians. If you are a sikh in delhi; not hiding in some safe place; there was 100 % chance that you would be killed, during those three days.

Its pathetic that I have to state the obvious to people with selective amnesia; who was willing to say "..but.." with the grossest of the acts.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 01:03 PM
Moreover it needs to be said that original Sikh tradition was sanatan, and origin of this term comes from the shared Hindu Dharma. In 1905 the British Raj had installed a caretaker of the central Harimandir Gurdwara after the reform Singh Sabha had usurped power from the original Sanatan Singh Sabha. This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history. Traditionally the pujaris and mahants of the Udasi and Nirmalay sects were the caretakers of the Sikh Gurdwaras. This British appointed "jathedar" not only did he place a siropa of honor around the neck of General Dyer following the Jallianwalla bagh massacre committed by the British against own Punjabis,
but in 1905 he REMOVED the murthis from the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple). It is known that removed included a lifesized murthi of Vishnu, a murthi of Chandi-Durga, a murthi of Bhagavan Krishna and a murthi of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

Harjas Kaurji,
The above paragraph say jathedar honored dyer after jallianwala and removed murtis in 1905. You know there is 14 years difference between the two events. So making the link in two events 14 years apart doesn't make sense.



This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history

Incorrect. Baba Budda was first jathedar of Harmander Sahib.

thirdly,
I can't understand that what you say about "removing the statues". was it right or wrong?

Sikh Sabha movement was not just given away by british. There were enough struggles, protests and loss of life for that.

This paragraph creates wedge between sikhs and hindus; sikhs and sikhs more than britishers. Where did you get this paragraph from? Who wrote this ? what references ?

Sikhs who worked on this reform movement were not politicians; they were very learned sikhs - who have written treatises on guru granth sahib. Kahan Singh Nabha and Prof Sahib Singh (born a hindu - Nathu Ram) are the authorities on guru granth sahib even after 100 years.

Fourly - pardon me - I don't understand the meaning of Sanatan Dharma. And why go in terminology. Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god. ( From first lines of guru granth sahib). So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.
There is no images of sikh gurus also in a sikh gurudwara. The images are only kept in the museums. Nobody bows before images.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 01:15 PM
namaste,
Saying that sikhs were in as much danger as hindus doesn't absolve the terrorists from the dispecable acts of murdering innocent men, women and children in punjab.
It is pathetic that people are hung up on an empty dream of khali stan because that's what it would've been if terrorists had their way. Last year I was in punjab, no sikh that I met talked about separating from India.

In none of my posts, I ever said terrorists were right.
In none of my posts, I demanded a Khalistan.
I am not sure where you interpreted that from.

My discussion with you is over.

satay
06 August 2010, 02:33 PM
namaskar,


In none of my posts, I ever said terrorists were right.
In none of my posts, I demanded a Khalistan.
I am not sure where you interpreted that from.

My discussion with you is over.

Good.

satay
06 August 2010, 02:52 PM
namaskar,


So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.
There is no images of sikh gurus also in a sikh gurudwara. The images are only kept in the museums. Nobody bows before images.

Hmm...when was the last time you went to a sikh gurudwara sahib? I ask because the last time I was there I saw there pictures of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and people bowing to those 'images'. Also, I saw sangat bowing down to the Guru Granth Sahib. Nobody bows before images? Which Gurudwara are you talking about? Because the gurudwaras I go to everyone bows to images there!

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 03:14 PM
namaskar,
Hmm...when was the last time you went to a sikh gurudwara sahib? I ask because the last time I was there I saw there pictures of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and people bowing to those 'images'. Also, I saw sangat bowing down to the Guru Granth Sahib. Nobody bows before images? Which Gurudwara are you talking about? Because the gurudwaras I go to everyone bows to images there!

Images of gurus have no place in Gurudwara. If some gurudwara has that, its incorrect. The first lines of Guru Granth says that "God is done,Formless...". So anybody who is doing such is not following the sikhism.

You need to read stuff, before we can make fruitful discussion. You are not here to learn, and I don't have much time to argue.

Believer
06 August 2010, 03:26 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but did people bow before the images of the gurus before Guru Granth Sahib was installed as the eternal guru and the practice of bowing only before it was established?

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 03:42 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but did people bow before the images of the gurus before Guru Granth Sahib was installed as the eternal guru and the practice of bowing only before it was established?

Guru Gobind Singh established Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal guru during his lifetime. There was no gap.

In fact Guru Arjan Dev - 5th guru - compiled most of the Guru Granth Sahib and established it in Harmander Sahib (Golden Temple); and people bowed before the granth since then.

Believer
06 August 2010, 04:18 PM
Guru Gobind Singh established Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal guru during his lifetime. There was no gap.

In fact Guru Arjan Dev - 5th guru - compiled most of the Guru Granth Sahib and established it in Harmander Sahib (Golden Temple); and people bowed before the granth since then.

I am sorry, I probably did not phrase my question right.

1. Who/What did people bow to before Guru Arjan Dev compiled the Guru Granth Sahib?
2. Did people bow to Guru Nanak during his lifetime or the other three Gurus who followed him, since the Guru Granth Sahib did not exist then?
3. What is so evil about bowing before a Guru - who teaches you about God and God's word - or before a deity representing God?
4. What is the point of splitting hair? Out of the two groups, one who sees God as nirakaar and the other who sees God as akaar, is one essentially better/more enlightened than the other? Can we just let them both worship according to their understanding/religious affiliation/intellect/personal preference/ego fueled 'better than thou' attitude, and not argue about it? Even if some members of the nirakaar group bow before a picture, are they going to be denied entry into heaven? Have they committed an unpardonable sin against God and humanity? If one sees God in a murti/picture, let him. If another sees God in thin air, let him. Microscopes can be useful in a lot of scientific research, but NOT in studying these two species to determine who is better of the two. Splitting hair is injurious to your health and it annoys your friends/well-wishers/neighbors too. :)

BryonMorrigan
06 August 2010, 04:40 PM
What is the point of splitting hair? Out of the two groups, one who sees God as nirakaar and the other who sees God as akaar, is one essentially better/more enlightened than the other? Can we just let them both worship according to their understanding/religious affiliation/intellect/personal preference/ego fueled 'better than thou' attitude, and not argue about it? Even if some members of the nirakaar group bow before a picture, are they going to be denied entry into heaven? Have they committed an unpardonable sin against God and humanity? If one sees God in a murti/picture, let him. If another sees God in thin air, let him. Microscopes can be useful in a lot of scientific research, but NOT in studying these two species to determine who is better of the two. Splitting hair is injurious to your health and it annoys your friends/well-wishers/neighbors too. :)


Quoted for truth. If I wanted to argue about "true" and "false" religions, then I'd be a Christian or a Muslim.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 04:49 PM
I am sorry, I probably did not phrase my question right.

1. Who/What did people bow to before Guru Arjan Dev compiled the Guru Granth Sahib?
2. Did people bow to Guru Nanak during his lifetime or the other three Gurus who followed him, since the Guru Granth Sahib did not exist then?
3. What is so evil about bowing before a Guru - who teaches you about God and God's word - or before a deity representing God?
4. What is the point of splitting hair? Out of the two groups, one who sees God as nirakaar and the other who sees God as akaar, is one essentially better/more enlightened than the other? Can we just let them both worship according to their understanding/religious affiliation/intellect/personal preference/ego fueled 'better than thou' attitude, and not argue about it? Even if some members of the nirakaar group bow before a picture, are they going to be denied entry into heaven? Have they committed an unpardonable sin against God and humanity? If one sees God in a murti/picture, let him. If another sees God in thin air, let him. Microscopes can be useful in a lot of scientific research, but NOT in studying these two species to determine who is better of the two. Splitting hair is injurious to your health and it annoys your friends/well-wishers/neighbors too. :)

1-2. Sikhs bowed before the living Guru. They not just bowed, but everything the Guru said - even gave their head ( Baishakhi 1699)

3. If I answer this is detail, it may appear as criticism of idol-worship. So, I have to walk on very thin line. The idol is not God. So, there is no point in worshipping it. An idol cannot represent the nirgun God. And I, as a sikh, would respect a hindu doing his worship the way he wants. And a sikh would even defend a hindu's right to worship the way he wants. (Guru Teg Bahadur did it)

4. I have no-better-than-thou attitude. A sikh, who follows sikhism, cannot have that attitude. Please point any of my posts where I have stated sikh is better than hindu or such.

I am just here to clarify some misinformation. The first lines for Guru Granth ( I am saying it for nth time) are One God, Truth, ..Timeless, Birth-less..
So, why some people can't understand that Idol-worship is not part of sikhism. Hey, we don't even worship idols of Gurus. Even Guru Ramdas's statue was removed from Golden Temple, when singh sabha reform movement happened. We have no disrespect for anybody and any method of worship.

satay
06 August 2010, 05:04 PM
namaste,

Please visit a gurudwara sahib and tell that to the sikhs there that are bowing down to the images of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and the Guru Granth Sahib.

I am starting to think that you have never been to a gurudwara sahib and you are pretending to be a sikh.


Images of gurus have no place in Gurudwara. If some gurudwara has that, its incorrect. The first lines of Guru Granth says that "God is done,Formless...". So anybody who is doing such is not following the sikhism.

You need to read stuff, before we can make fruitful discussion. You are not here to learn, and I don't have much time to argue.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 05:12 PM
namaste,
Please visit a gurudwara sahib and tell that to the sikhs there that are bowing down to the images of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and the Guru Granth Sahib.
I am starting to think that you have never been to a gurudwara sahib and you are pretending to be a sikh.

If your aim is to make me angry and leave this site forever, you are almost there.

Where in Golden Temple or Akal Takht are the images of Gurus. Where in Bangla Sahib, Sis Ganj (Delhi) ?

Which gurudwara have you seen images. Please post the photographs. I will send those to Sikh Missionary College, who may do the needful.

Believer
06 August 2010, 05:25 PM
A respectful way for an Arya Samaji to talk about image/murti puja would be to say, we don't do that but many other hindu sects do it.

A respectful way for a Sikh to talk about image puja would be to say our faith does not allow it, but some adherents choose do it any way.

When I share space with a one eyed man, and I keep bringing up the fact that I have two eyes, I am essentially conveying to him that he is inferior to me, without using those words. Enough said!

Don't let religion drag you down and keep you from soaring to the heights of spirituality. You may quote me on that.

Believer
06 August 2010, 05:39 PM
Satay and Darshan,

Veero, please cool it.

When I was a kid and got mad with a playmate, I would do a kutti, which lasted all of five minutes. If he really made me mad, I would do a pucki kutti, which lasted, maybe for a day. But we always made up and were friends again. That was then. Now I am a grown up man, almost close to the end. And I realize that this petty fighting and harboring animosity towards people, specially so close to my race/culture/background is poisonous and self-defeating. I try to make a conscious effort not to do that. I am not saying that I am perfect and I always succeed in that, but I always give it a shot. There is not much time left for kuttis - kachchi or pucki. I started this thread for us to get closer to each other, not to diverge. That is all I am going to say. You guys are grown ups, do what makes you happy.

darshansingh
06 August 2010, 05:39 PM
When I share space with a one eyed man, and I keep bringing up the fact that I have two eyes, I am essentially conveying to him that he is inferior to me, without using those words. Enough said!


Who knows. Maybe I am the one-eyed among two-eyed people. I am just saying - Hey just acknowledge that I am different in such and such way.

I think I said enough of what I wanted to say.

I have a some disagreements with Harjas Kaur, who, per me, sometimes presents incorrect picture of Sikhism. So, if you really want to know sikhism, read stuff other than her posts - I would recommend - sikhs.org - a good site with some comparison of sikhism with various religions. Read McLauliff, if you really have a lot of time.

So, with that, I take leave from this site, for at least a month.

satay
06 August 2010, 05:55 PM
namaste,


If your aim is to make me angry and leave this site forever, you are almost there.

Where in Golden Temple or Akal Takht are the images of Gurus. Where in Bangla Sahib, Sis Ganj (Delhi) ?

Which gurudwara have you seen images. Please post the photographs. I will send those to Sikh Missionary College, who may do the needful.

Here in Canada there are many gurudwara sahib that have pictures all over the place. People bow to them. In sikh homes in punjab and everywhere there are pictures of guru nanak and gobindh singh. Sikhs bown to the images in the morning and evening.

Last time I visited Darbar sahib was in March 2009. I don't recall any images there so I will give you benefit of the doubt there. But have you not seen sikhs bowing to the darbar sahib itself! Darbar sahib itself is an idol! It doesn't matter what is written in our vedas or in the granth sahib, people are people and they will bow down to the image of their dear. Punjabis even bow down to the images of their dead ancestors what to say of gurus!

I really don't know where you are coming from? Have you ever been to Punjab?

satay
06 August 2010, 05:57 PM
Sorry, these types of sikh that don't know their own history make me frustrated.

I grew up in the dirt of punjab and this guy is telling me that sikhs don't bow to images! What nonsense is this.


Satay and Darshan,

Veero, please cool it.

Eastern Mind
06 August 2010, 06:49 PM
Vannakkam:

I know nothing of Sikhism but have observed this thread. It seems that Sikhism may have a few variations, and many think their particular variation is the only one practised, but also the CORRECT one. Reminds me of some other eastern faith.

Aum Namasivaya

squid
08 August 2010, 08:09 AM
Believer ji

1) Comparing "Shabad Guru"Guru Granth Sahib ji with deity is Childish !
2) I am not denying Caste still present among some Sikhs But it( Caste System) is against Sikhi Principles and and is rejected in Guru Granth Sahib ji .

Believer
08 August 2010, 12:16 PM
squidji,

Thanks for stopping by. I am honored by your presence.




1) Comparing "Shabad Guru"Guru Granth Sahib ji with deity is Childish !
I am sorry. It was out of ignorance, I meant no disrespect.



2) I am not denying Caste still present among some Sikhs But it( Caste System) is against Sikhi Principles and and is rejected in Guru Granth Sahib ji .

If you closed your eyes and just tried to hear yourself, you would see the fallacy of your statement. Someone making a statement, "I rob and kill and rape and plunder, but it is not sanctioned by my religion" - do you see anything there?

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 04:35 AM
Darshansingh writes:

"Also you will see many posts in this forum who say that guru gobind singh was bhagat of Chandi; and some using the words that sikh gurus were self-styled godmen and such. These people are either uneducated, or silly, or mischievous. I just consider them uneducated. Some sikhs may see them as mischievous which causes further rift."
Actually, it is you who are uneducated, since you aren't even aware of the historical origins of such teachings. Regardless of whether you accept them or not, this is still a validly held part of purataan sanatan Sikh heritage.

See below is a picture which appears on Jvala Singh's blogspot. Now whether you can accept it or not, whether the majority of the Singh Sabha Tat Khalsa reformed Sikh Panth can accept it or not, you see Devi as being quite central to an earlier time period of Sikh history (read: before the British and Macauliffe's divisions and lies.)


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ghls0vHlOYk/S_Rxlfvqr_I/AAAAAAAADgE/vPxdT5d6fHM/s400/blog+copy+1.jpeg

Above is a photograph of a beautiful handwritten Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib manuscript which portrays Guru Nanak Dev Ji on the left side, Guru Gobind Singh Ji on the right side and in the middle the Devi, this particular form of the Devi is Sarswati. This manuscript is estimated to be written in the early to mid 1800s. http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/


Bansavalinama written in 1769 CE by Kesar Singh Chibber also mentions the celebrating of Dusshera. Kesar Singh Ji writes:

ਦੁਸਹਰੇ ਦੇ ਦਿਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਕਰਨ । ਚੰਡੀਪਾਠ ਕੀਤਾ ਰਸਨਾ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ।
On the days of Dusshera, worship your weapons. From your mouths you should recite the ballads of Chandi [Chandi Chritars and Chandi Di Vaar].

ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ, ਪੁਸ਼ਪ, ਬਹੁਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁਗੰਧਿ । ਕੇਸਰ, ਚੰਦਨ, ਚਉਰ ਝੁਲੰਤ ।੩੯੦।
[Worship your weapons by using] lots of Incense, Gee-lamps, flowers and nice fragrances. [Use] Saffron, Sandalwood and a Wisk to wave [above your weapons].
- Bansavalinama pg. 161 ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ ਪਨਾ ੧੬੧
http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/



Below is a passage from the start of Krishnavatar [the section which describes the life story of Krishna], from Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. For more information on the role of Devi in Sikh Dharam please view other articles on the blog such as, Ugardanthi Explanation, Khalsa Dharam Shaastar, and Bhagauti Astotar Katha.


ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥
Now begins the description in praise of the goddess

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
SWAYYA

ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਹਮ ਪੈ ਤੁ ਸਭੈ ਸਗਨੰਗੁਨ ਹੀ ਧਰਿਹੋਂ ॥
On receiving Thy Grace, I shall assume all the virtues;

ਜੀਅ ਧਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਤਬੈ ਬਰ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਮਹਾਂ ਅਗਨੰਗੁਨ ਕੋ ਹਰਿਹੌਂ ॥
I shall destroy all the vices, ruminating on Thy attributes in my mind;

ਬਿਨੁ ਚੰਡ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਨਹੀ ਅੱਛਰ ਹਉ ਕਰਿ ਹੌਂ ॥
O Chandi! I cannot utter a syllable from my mouth without Thy Grace;

ਤੁਮਰੋ ਕਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਿਧੋ ਤੁਲਹਾ ਜਿਮ ਬਾਕ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਿਖੈ ਤਰਿਹੌਂ ॥੫॥
I can ferry across the ocean of Poesy, on only the boat of Thy Name.5.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
DOHRA

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭਜ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਰਦਾ ਅਨਗਨ ਗੁਨ ਹੈ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
O mind! Remember the goddess Sharda of innumerable qualities;

ਰਚੌ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਇਹ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਜਉ ਵੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਾਹਿ ॥੬॥
And if she be kind, I may compose this Granth (based on) Bhagavata.6.

ਕਬਿਤੁ ॥
KABIT

ਸੰਕਟ ਹਰਨ ਸਭ ਸਿੱਧਕੀ ਕਰਨ ਚੰਡ ਤਾਰਨ ਤਰਨ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਲੋਚਨ ਬਿਸਾਲ ਹੈ ॥
The large-eyed Chandika is the remover of all sufferings, the donor of powers and support of the helpless in ferrying across the fearful ocean of the world;

ਆਦਿ ਜਾਕੈ ਆਹਮ ਹੈ ਅੰਤ ਕੋ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਉਬਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ਹੈ ॥
It is difficult to know her beginning and end, she emancipates and sustains him, who takes refuge in her,

ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਭੁਖ ਜਾਰਨ ਸੋ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਛਡਾਏ ਜਮਜਾਲ ਹੈ॥
She destroys the demons, finishes various types of desires and saves from the noose of death;

ਦੇਵੀ ਬਰ ਲਾਇਕ ਸਬੁੱਧਿਹੂ ਕੀ ਦਾਇਕ ਸੁ ਦੇਹ ਬਰ ਪਾਇਕ ਬਨਾਵੈ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਹਾਲ ਹੈ ॥੭॥
The same goddess is capable of bestowing the boon and good intellect; by her Grace this Granth can be composed.7.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
SWAYYA

ਅੱਦ੍ਰ ਸੁਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਤਨਯਾ ਮਹਿਖਾਸੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਰਤਾ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੋਊ ॥
She, who is the daughter of the mountain and the destroyer of Mahishasura;

ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕੋ ਰਾਜਹਿ ਕੀ ਦਿਵਯਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਬਧ ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭਹਿ ਦੋਊ ॥
She, who is the bestower of the kingdom of Indra, the King of Demi-Gods, by killing Sumbh and Nisumbh;

ਜੋ ਜਪ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੈ ਬਰ ਕੋ ਸੁ ਲਹੈ ਮਨ ਇੱਛਤਾ ਸੋਊ ॥
He, who remembers and serves her, he receives the reward to his heart`s desire,

ਲੋਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਉਹ ਕੀ ਸਮ ਤੁੱਲ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਕੋਊ ॥੮॥
And in the whole world, none other is the supporter of the poor like her.8

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ॥
End of the praise of the goddess,
http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/


First Stanza of Sarbloh Granth Translation


One (advait - non-dual) Lord who is the light of all creation

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
Victory to Sri Vahiguru

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
May Bhavani be helpful

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਾਯਾ ਲਛਮੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
May Maya Laxmi be helpful

ਉਸਤਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਾਯਾ ਲਛਮੀ ਜੀ ਕੀ ॥
The Praise of Sri Maya Laxmi

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਿਵਾਕਯ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦ ॥
From the blessed mouth of the Tenth King

ਦੋਹਿਰਾ ॥ ਛਾਯਾ ਰੂਪੀ ਹੇਇ ਕੈ, ਬਿਚਰਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
Taking the form of Maya (the great illusion, duality), Gopal (the preserver of Life) wanders within it (the creation)

ਆਪਹਿ ਲਛਮੀ ਬਪੁ ਧਰੇ, ਜੀਉ ਜੰਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ॥੧॥
For the protection of beings, He took the form of Sri Laxmi

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਾਯਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਕਰੋ ਉਚਾਰ ॥
Recite, “Sri Maya”, from your mouth

ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਸਾਗਰ ਤੇ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
She protects the weak from the (dreadful) ocean

ਦੋਹਿਰਾ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਈਸੁਰੀ, ਮਾਯਾ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ॥
The Primordial Bhavani (Paida karn vali shakti*) the Creator, whose name is Maya

ਇਨ ਬਿਨ ਸਰੈ ਨ ਏਕ ਛਿਨ, ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਤ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥੨॥
Nothing can be accomplished without Her protection not even for a moment.

ਸੁਖਦਾਇਕ ਮੰਗਲਕਰਨ, ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ॥
The giver of happiness, giver of liberation, Her very nature is to take care of Her creation

ਸੁਬੁਧਿਦੈਨ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਕਰਨਿ, ਮਾਯਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਜਗਮਾਤਿ ॥੩॥
Hail Hail to the One who gives awareness of the Self (aatma), Maya (Laxmi), the mother of the World


Notes according to the Budha Dal Steek on Sarbloh Granth:
Bhavani (the fericous form of Parbati, Shivji's consort, also known as Durga, Bhagauti) here is noted as "Paida karan vali shakti", meaning, that She is the Creative (that which gives birth) Energy of the Universe.

Maya Laxmi (Vishnu's consort) is noted as "Paalnaa karan vali Shakti", meaning She is the Nourishing/protecting Energy of the Universe.

The Steek talks about how these Devi's represent Guna's (qualities) of Vahiguru.
http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html

See, rather than the Sanatan view being "uneducated," all that has transpired over the past 100 years of Singh Sabha reform is the older source material has been suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright.

What has Singh Sabha to fear? Oh of course, as the principle purpose of their coming into existence being to promote an independent Sikh identity separate from Hindu, the former sanatan glory of Hindu-Sikhism must be kept from public view. And so, it isn't I who am uneducated in this matter...but YOU!

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 06:01 AM
"In 1905 the British Raj had installed a caretaker of the central Harimandir Gurdwara after the reform Singh Sabha had usurped power from the original Sanatan Singh Sabha. This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history."

Darsahansingh writes:

"Incorrect. Baba Budda was first jathedar of Harmander Sahib."
--------------------------------

According to a source, when Guru Hargobind Sahib remained in Gwalior Fort prison, he had asked Baba Buddha to perform the services of Darbar Sahib (HARIMANDAR SAHIB) and Bhai Gurdas to take care of Akal Takht Sahib. It was not the appointment of Bhai Gurdas as the Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib. It is ignorance to say that Bhai Gurdas was the Jathedar or the Custodian of Akal Takht Sahib. He was just the caretaker.

Guru Hargobind Sahib left Amritsar in 1635. Between 1635 and 1696 (until the death of Harji), Amritsar was under the control of the descendants of Pirthi Chand (elder brother of Guru Arjan Sahib).

In April 1698, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib appointed Bhai Mani Singh as Granthi of Darbar Sahib and Akal Takht Sahib. On December 30, 1711, Bahadur Shah, the Mogul emperor, "assigned" the Jagir of Chakk Ram Das (Amritsar) to Ajit Singh Palit (He had been adopted by Mata Sunder Kaur. Later, she discarded him). Bahadur Shah wanted to use Ajit Singh Palit against Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, the Sikh General. Ajit Singh returned to Delhi after the death of Bahadur Shah (February 27, 1712).

After this Baba Kahan Singh of the so-called Tat Khalsa, who looked after Akal Takht Sahib and Mahant Amar Singh of the so-called Bandai Khalsa, who had the control of Jhanda Bunga.

Bhai Mani Singh is not referred as so-called Jathedar in any Sikh work. Bhai Ratan Singh Bhangu calls him "Pujaran sion vado pujari" (chief priest among the priests)." http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/akal.html

You have inherited a very creative history which, as per Tat Khalsa reforms, fills the gaps very nicely but inaccurately. The Jathedars were also known as Misldars and hence the position was one of military commander. The caretakers of the shrines including Harimandir Sahib were "pujaris" of the Guru Sahibaan blood relatives. There is an entire lineage which the Singh Sabhas have completely overlooked and derailed in their invention of new history.

And notice these Mahants are all wearing Seli Topi. The same Seli Topi worn by the first 5 dedhari forms of Guru Sahibaan, who did NOT wear pagri. Notice they are all wearing tilak, which according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, was also placed on Guru Sahibaan. Notice they are all wearing mala which is same in appearance to the mala belonging to Guru Nanak Dev Ji kept in Sodhi family Guru Harsahai to this day. So don't think the Mahants appearance is strange, because the original dedhari forms of Guru would not recognize the images depicting them today, but appeared very much as these pictures of the original Mahants and pujaris of Harimandir Sahib Ji.

http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/images/mahant-1.jpg

THE FIRST SHRI MAHANT AUD DAS JI
Shri Aud Das Ji is considered the first Shri Mahant of the Darbar Sahib. He served from 1687 to 1741. He did not get any formal education and had come in the service of Guru Maharaj at a very young age. It is also said of him that he was left with Guru Maharaj and Mata Punjab Kaur in his childhood. Some people say that he became the Mahant after the death of Mata Punjab Kaur. He went to Malwa region of the Punjab for preaching religion where he met Har Prasad Ji. The latter got so much impressed by Shri Aud Das Ji that he took Sanyas (adandoned the world) and became his disciple. Though Shri Aud Das Ji remained Mahant for 54 years yet he worked for 32 years under the guidance of Mata Punjab Kaur and after her death carried out the work with the assistance of Shri Har Prasad Ji. Shri Aud Das Ji was a gentle natured saint and utilized most of his time in adoration and worship. He remained a dedicated devotee and Shri Mahant. He preserved the tradition of Guru Maharaj and declared Shri Har Prasad Ji who had become the cardinal worker of the Darbar Sahib during the life time of Mata Punjab Kaur, as the future Shri Mahant. http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/images/mahant-2.jpg

THE SECOND SHRI MAHANT HAR PRASAD JI
Shri Har Prasad Ji was the Shri Mahant of Darbar Sahib from 1741 to 1766 (25 years). He belonged to Malwa in the Punjab and came to Dehradun due to the magnetism of Shri Mahant Aud Das Ji. He was influenced by both Shri Aud Das Ji and Mata Punjab Kaur. He got an opportunity to work with Mata Punjab Kaur as well as Shri Aud Das Ji. He was a bit literate although he did not have any formal education. The Darbar Sahib had very small income during his tenure. After the death of Aurangzeb, there was a change in the political scenario of the country and due to this change, no emperor extended any help or patronage to the Darbar Sahib thereafter. But the Maharajas of Garhwal continued their help as usual. Shri Har Prasad Ji chose Shri Har Sewak Ji as his successor. http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/images/mahant-3.jpg

THE THIRD SHRI MAHANT HAR SEWAK JI
Shri Har Sewak Ji was also known as Sewak Das but as a Mahant he was called Har Sewak. He also hailed from Malwa (Punjab) and came to Dehradun with a group of sadhus. He started living in the Darbar Sahib. He was initiated as disciple by Shri Har Prasad Ji. He remained Shri Mahant from 1766 to 1818(52 years). He got close proximity to his Guru and double of his tenure. His period was full of upheavals and difficulties. He was a wise and influential Mahant. During the last leg of his tenure, the decline and the fall of the Mughal empire and domination of the Britishers were changing the attitude of the society. Besides this, insecurity and disorder spread in Doon Valley and Garhwal due to the Gorkha War. The treaty of Singoli after the Gorkha War did bring normalcy but Garhwal was divided into two parts. The income of Darbar Sahib got reduced. The Maharaja of Garhwal, Sudarshan Shah, was now left only as the ruler of Tehri Garhwal. The territory across the river Alaknanda, the Ganga and Chandrabhaga had to be given to the British empire. http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/images/mahant-4.jpg

THE FOURTH SHRI MAHANT SWAROOP DAS JI
Shri Swaroop Das Ji was enthroned on the Gaddi in 1818 and remained Shri Mahant till 1842. He had been a friend and a colleague of his Guru. He was a resident of Saharanpur and might have come in the service of Darbar Sahib long back during the tenure of Shri Har Sewak Ji. He attended the conference of Udaseen sect in 1787 organised at Allahabad as a representative of the Darbar Sahib. The Udaseen Panchayati Akhara was established the same year in which the famous saint Preetam Das Ji made a notable contribution. He placed an orb made of the sacred ashes brought from the 'Dhun' of Baba Bankhandi, the worship of which became an essential part of the sect. The instance of choosing more than one disciple was put in to practice by shri Swaroop Das Ji. He nominated Shri Preetam Das Ji and Shri Bishab Das Ji as his two disciples but Pritam Das Ji became the fifth mahant. http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 06:27 AM
http://babawadbhagsinghtrust.com/relics_files/image001.jpg

"This Seli Topi was worn by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji, Sri Guru Amar Dass Ji, Sri Guru Ram Dass Ji & Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Presently it is lying at the The Fort, Kartarpur District Jalandhar (Pb.) India" http://babawadbhagsinghtrust.com/relics.htm

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/3371428802_8a0872898c.jpg
Original handwritten Pothi, original mala, padam and shaligram belonging to Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji. YES, Shaligram kept in Sodhi family, Guru Harsahai.




Sila, (शिल in Devanagari, śila in IAST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAST) refers to a Vaishnava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishnava) (Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu)) aniconic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconic) representation of Vishnu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu), in the form of a spherical, usually black-coloured stone found in the sacred river Gandaki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandaki).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaligram#cite_note-0) [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaligram#cite_note-1) They are more often referred to as Shaligram Shilas, with Shila being the shortened version. The word Sila translates simply to 'stone' and Shaligram is a less well-known name of Vishnu. The origin of the name is traced to a remote village in Nepal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal) where Vishnu is known by the name of Shaligraman...

Although Hinduism is commonly represented by such anthropomorphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphic) religious murtis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murtis), aniconism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism) is equally represented with such abstract symbols of God such as the saligrama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saligrama).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaligram#cite_note-2) Moreover, Hindus have found it easier to focus on anthropmorphic icons, because Lord Krishna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna) said in the Bhagavad Gita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita), Chapter 12, Verse 5, that it is much more difficult to focus on God as the unmanifested than God with form, due to human beings having the need to perceive via the senses.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaligram#cite_note-3)



ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਾਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
bahur bahur this laageh paaee ||1||
Again and again, he falls at the Lord's Feet.

ਸਾਲਗਿਰਾਮੁ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਸੇਵਾ ॥
saalagiraam hamaarai saevaa ||
Such is the Saalagraam, the stone idol, which I serve;

ਪੂਜਾ ਅਰਚਾ ਬੰਦਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
poojaa arachaa bandhan dhaevaa ||1|| rehaao ||
such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well.

ਘੰਟਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ॥
ghanttaa jaa kaa suneeai chahu kuntt ||
His bell resounds to the four corners of the world.

ਆਸਨੁ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਸਦਾ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ॥
aasan jaa kaa sadhaa baikunth ||
His seat is forever in heaven.

ਜਾ ਕਾ ਚਵਰੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਝੂਲੈ ॥
jaa kaa chavar sabh oopar jhoolai ||
His chauri, his fly-brush, waves over all.

ਤਾ ਕਾ ਧੂਪੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਰਫੁਲੈ ॥੨॥
thaa kaa dhhoop sadhaa parafulai ||2||
His incense is ever-fragrant.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੰਪਟੁ ਹੈ ਰੇ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥
ghatt ghatt sanpatt hai rae jaa kaa ||
He is treasured in each and every heart.

ਅਭਗ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਧਾ ॥
abhag sabhaa sang hai saadhhaa ||
The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is His Eternal Court.

ਆਰਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦ ॥
aarathee keerathan sadhaa anandh ||
His Aartee, his lamp-lit worship service, is the Kirtan of His Praises, which brings lasting bliss.

ਮਹਿਮਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਸਦਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ॥੩॥
mehimaa sundhar sadhaa baeanth ||3||
His Greatness is so beautiful, and ever limitless.

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਲਹਨਾ ॥
jisehi paraapath this hee lehanaa ||
He alone obtains it, who is so pre-ordained;

ਸੰਤ ਚਰਨ ਓਹੁ ਆਇਓ ਸਰਨਾ ॥
santh charan ouhu aaeiou saranaa ||
he takes to the Sanctuary of the Saints' Feet.

ਹਾਥਿ ਚੜਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਲਗਿਰਾਮੁ ॥
haathh charriou har saalagiraam ||
I hold in my hands the Saalagraam of the Lord.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਦਾਨੁ ॥੪॥੩੯॥੯੦॥
kahu naanak gur keeno dhaan ||4||39||90||
Says Nanak, the Guru has given me this Gift.
~SGGS Ji ang 393

Now, if the Shaligram were only symbolic like the incense and aarti as per the interpretations of the Tat Khalsa reform scholars...WHY THEN DOES AN ACTUAL SHALIGRAM DATING FROM GURU NANAK AND PASSED DOWN TO GURU SAHIBAAN FAMILIES STILL EXIST?

Answer? Because Tat Khalsas invented a new anti-Hindu history ignoring the OBVIOUS Vaishnavi roots and distorting the original Sanskrit understanding.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Bhuuman.jpg/230px-Bhuuman.jpg
Baba Bhumman Shah famous Udasi sant also shown wearing Seli Topi and mala.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/375610347_e4c34e387c.jpg

This is a fresco (over 200 yrs old), found in the inner sanctum of Dera Baba Charan Shah Udasin at Bahadurpur in Hoshiarpur, Punjab. It depicts the first Sikh Guru, Guru Nanak Dev, along with his companions - Bhai Mardhana (left) and Bhai Bala (right). Bhai Mardhana, a Muslim Sikh, is seen playing the Rabab. Bhai Bala, a Hindu Sikh is fanning the Guru. http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/375610347/

Clearly a red chandan tilak on Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

ਜਿਤਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਢਾਇ ॥
jithanae bhagath har saevakaa mukh athasath theerathh thin thilak kadtaae
All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, the ceremonial mark, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage. ~SGGS Ji ang 733
--------------------------------

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji ang 923

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 06:33 AM
Clearly a red chandan tilak on Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Sorry, unable to edit. I hit post before proofreading. Meant to say chandan and kumkum tilak, thanks. (from puja obviously)

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 07:52 AM
Darshansingh writes:

"thirdly, I can't understand that what you say about "removing the statues". was it right or wrong?"
Well per the Singh Sabha reform it was wrong, as they condemned nearly everything from purataan Gursikhi heritage and invented a new, Westernized, monotheistic, blatantly ignorant of Sanskrit version.

I say it was wrong because it CHANGED, as in ALTERED what had been Sikh heritage.

Sikhs who worked on this reform movement were not politicians; they were very learned sikhs - who have written treatises on guru granth sahib.
According to the mainstream Tat Khalsa opinion. But not according to the sanatan Sikh opinion. They were very learned in suppressing and then denying the sanatan history and in ignoring the obvious underlying Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha terminology.


Fourly - pardon me - I don't understand the meaning of Sanatan Dharma. And why go in terminology.

Well, I'll give you a perfect example...


Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god. (From first lines of guru granth sahib). So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.


ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||
One Universal Creator God The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self- Existent. By Guru's Grace~
~SGGS Ji ang 1

Now let's take a close look at these concepts in Gurbani. Oh yes, there was this little problematic issue right here....
"Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god."

Not quite. You cannot worship something without form. Impossible. There is no NAAM you can call it. No conception you could imagine of it. No relationship whatsoever to human mentality. It is by definition BEYOND HUMAN WORSHIP. What you worship is that aspect of the Supreme Totality which is nirguna that MANIFESTS in perceivable form and becomes sarguna/saguna.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥
nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.
~SGGS Ji ang 250
--------------------

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ ॥
niragun thae saragun dhrisattaaran ||
From formless, He appeared as form.
~SGGS Ji ang 250
--------------------

Now, it cannot be correctly said that the Lord is formless ONLY, that the Supreme Absolute is nirguna ONLY, since that would contradict the Gurbani which describes the Supreme as BOTH Nirguna and Sarguna. HENCE the Absolute Lord DOES take on form.

And if this were not the case...how could there be a Satguru, coming into sansaar to unite us with the Lord who is agochar (imperceivable and beyond human perception?)

How could there be Shabda, from the Shabda Brahman, if the Nirankar didn't also manifest in the perceivable world as Sound, and also as Light (Jyoti Jyot Paramjyot)?

Now these concepts of nirguna and sarguna, where do they come from?


The Vedas depict Brahman as the Ultimate Reality, the Absolute Paramātman (http://veda.wikidot.com/paramatman) (Universal Self). Brahman is the indescribable, inexhaustible, incorporeal, omniscient, omnipresent, original, first, eternal, both transcendent and immanent, absolute infinite existence, and the ultimate principle who is without a beginning, without an end , who is hidden in all and who is the cause, source, material and effect of all creation known, unknown and yet to happen in the entire universe.

Brahman (not to be confused with the deity Brahmā (http://veda.wikidot.com/brahma)) is seen as a Cosmic Spirit. The personality behind Brahman is known as Parabrahman (http://veda.wikidot.com/parabrahman) (The superior Brahman). Brahman may be viewed as Nirguna Brahman (http://veda.wikidot.com/nirguna-brahman) (without personal attributes) or Saguna Brahman (http://veda.wikidot.com/saguna-brahman) (with attributes)...


Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman are not two different Brahmans. Nirguna Brahman is not the contrast, antithesis or opposite of Saguna Brahman. The same Nirguna Brahman appears as Saguna Brahman for the pious worship of devotees. It is the same Truth from two different points of view. Nirguna Brahman is the higher Brahman, the Brahman from the transcendental viewpoint (Paramarthika (http://veda.wikidot.com/paramarthika)); Saguna Brahman is the lower Brahman, the Brahman from the relative viewpoint (Vyavaharika (http://veda.wikidot.com/vyavaharika)). http://veda.wikidot.com/brahman

So, if we accept Shabda as empowering Gurbani, then we have to accept that which is Ajooni (unborn) and Nirguna (without perceivable form) has become manifest into the world of perception as Sound, Word, Guru Vakya. If Sikhs only worship and believe in nirguna, they can't worship anything at all. Because nirguna is completely beyond human capacity.

ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
akharee naam akharee saalaah ||
From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.
~SGGS Ji ang 4

from Gayatri mantra: "Aum Iti Ek Akshara Brahman" (Aum that one syllable is Brahman).

Ek Akshara Aumkara.
Ek Ongkar/Omkar.

You must understand the Pranava-Nada. Without that not even the first word of the first sentence of Japji Sahib will make sense.


Four constituents of Om
The Pranava (AUM) is a combination of four parts, namely, 1. A (Akara), 2. U (Ukara), 3. M (Makara) and 4.Bindu and Nada. These parts are symbolic of 1. Creation, 2. Preservation, 3. Dissolution and 4. Deliverance, which form the eternal life-death rhythm that goes on in an endless cycle. Thus, Pranava is the sound manifestation of God.



Four states of Om
The four parts of Om correspond to four states of consciousness:
1. The sound 'a' is the symbol of the waking state (Jagrath Avastha)
2. The sound 'u' is the symbol of the dream state (Svapna Avastha).
3. The sound 'm' is the symbol of the deep-sleep state (Sushupti Avastha).
4. The closing sound of the syllable, followed by silence, is the symbol of the transcendental state (Turiya).



Four stages of Om
The Four stages of the syllable Om are the complete representation of the four stages of sound and their counterparts.
1. The physical (Sthula) part is connected to Vaikhari sabda.
2. The subtle (Sukshma) part is connected to Madhyama sabda.
3. The causal (Karana) part is connected to Pasyanthi sabda
4. The transcendental part is connected to Para sabda

Four states of consciousness
The four stages of sound and their counterparts are manifested in the four states of consciousness:
1. The physical body operates in the state of wakefulness. It is in this realm of consciousness and through this body that Vaikhari-vak is manifested.
2. The subtle body operates in the dream state. It is in this realm of consciousness and through this body that the Madhyama-vak is manifested.
3. The causal body operates in the state of deep sleep state. It is in this realm of consciousness and through this body that the Pashyanti-vak is manifested.
4. The Para-vak is manifested through the fourth state of consciousness, namely, the transcendental (turiya) state.
http://k-b-n-sarma.sulekha.com/blog/post/2003/12/pranava-the-song-of-life.htm

Can you please tell me per the Singh Sabha definition, what is the translational meaning of Oang/Ong/On? in ANY language appearing in Guru Granth Sahib. I know it is translated as meaning "God." But it means nothing in any language in Guru Granth Sahib.

Ek Ong Kar
One Creator God.

Not quite. That only Islamifies the Vedic concept of AUM, the Pranava Nada which is the roop of nirguna to come into world of pakriti/manifestation through the power of Shabda Brahman which CREATED by mantra vibrational SOUND current.

And the ONENESS referred to by the EK comes also from Vedas, Ek Akshara Omkara, the Primal God which is Present as vibrational Presence in Sound, and hence you understand the power of mantras. If mantras had no power of vibrational Presence of the Divine nirguna, coming into sargun perceivable form, there would be no power of Guru Vakya. There would be no Shabda. There would be no NAAM. There would be no Gurmantra. There would be no boat of mukti or method of liberation in the Kalyug.

You see, the translated definition of "One Creator God" is quite meaningless, and therefore false. Within the very term Ekonkar, or more properly, Ek Aumkar, is the very boat of mukti and the method for achieving transcendence through elevation of consciousness to the Turiya state and merging into Divine consciousness.

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 08:24 AM
ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਉਧਰਾ ॥
guradhaev aadh jugaadh jug jug guradhaev manth har jap oudhharaa ||
The Divine Guru existed at the primal beginning, throughout the ages, in each and every age. The Divine Guru is the Mantra of the Lord's Name; chanting it, one is saved.
~SGGS Ji ang 250

-----------------------

ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਦੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
gur manthra sabadh sach dheethaa raam ||
- the Guru has given the Mantra of the Shabad, the True Word of God.
~SGGS Ji ang 576

-----------------------
darshansingh writes:

Fourly - pardon me - I don't understand the meaning of Sanatan Dharma. And why go in terminology. Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god. ( From first lines of guru granth sahib). So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.
There is no images of sikh gurus also in a sikh gurudwara. The images are only kept in the museums. Nobody bows before images.
The recent past was very different from the present, despite denials from the Singh Sabha intellectuals and "scholars" or rather suppressors.


ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082

God has 4 arms according to Gurbani, and in fact keeps Vishnu's roop and descends to Earth as avatars and is called after Vaishnavi Divine Naams. Imagine! Now what low-minded "Hindu" Mahant could have deceptively "snuck" those tuuks into Guru's Mat? Or just maybe...it IS GURMAT!


And THIS philosphical and cultural HERITAGE in Gurbani clearly inherited from VEDAS, SHASTRAS, PURANAS, (while not proclaiming that THEY as mere book knowledge can give mukti, but rather SANATAN DHARM teaching of a SATGURU and NAAM JAP and SANKIRTAN of bhakti for the Divine is actually the method of liberation...)
One can only conclude that SIKHI is SANATANA DHARMA! Can it be anything ELSE? Because it's certainly not Abrahamic.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji ang 2

The ONENESS of the All-Pervading God takes on infinity of forms, in varying degrees of greater and lesser complete and partial opulences and does in fact use the agency of the devatay and avtaray to manifest Divine Light in the world of pakriti of thrai gunas and bondage to God's Mayajog.

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 08:34 AM
Imagine! Now what low-minded "Hindu" Mahant could have deceptively "snuck" those tuuks into Guru's Mat? Or just maybe...it IS GURMAT!
Begging forgiveness of the internet sangat for any deprecation of Hindu religion by this sentence. By way of explanation was a way of grabbing attention of sometimes stubborn Singh Sabha oriented Sikhs who think and accuse along these lines against Mahants, sanatan Hindu-Sikhs, against Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, and Sri Sabloh Granth Sahib Ji....

but would never DARE voice such utterances against Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And hence clearly pointing out especially to them, that these exact same tuuks which explain the God as having 4 arms, Vishnu's roop, descending in incarnation, etc as actually being unimpeachably Guru Sahibaan's own Gurmat/teachings, own Guru Vaakya. Of course it isn't "low." It is incredibly high and beautiful. But these Singh Sabhias have endlessly preached rejection of Hinduism on false political grounds.

Harjas Kaur
15 August 2010, 08:59 AM
I am just here to clarify some misinformation. The first lines for Guru Granth ( I am saying it for nth time) are One God, Truth, ..Timeless, Birth-less..
So, why some people can't understand that Idol-worship is not part of sikhism. Hey, we don't even worship idols of Gurus. Even Guru Ramdas's statue was removed from Golden Temple, when singh sabha reform movement happened.
-------------------------------------------
Where in Golden Temple or Akal Takht are the images of Gurus. Where in Bangla Sahib, Sis Ganj (Delhi) ?
:gotcha:Obviously, there WERE there and have been removed per the Singh Sabha REFORM: read alteration of Sikh religion.


Which gurudwara have you seen images. Please post the photographs. I will send those to Sikh Missionary College, who may do the needful.
See above, everyone knows the murthis have been used in pujas by pujaris but have been removed in 1905. Yes, send Taliban to whitewash more Gurdwara murals and suppress the history even further so people like you can outright blatantly lie and deny it ever existed to a whole new generation.


I have a some disagreements with Harjas Kaur, who, per me, sometimes presents incorrect picture of Sikhism. So, if you really want to know sikhism, read stuff other than her posts - I would recommend - sikhs.org - a good site with some comparison of sikhism with various religions. Read McLauliff, if you really have a lot of time.
I represent quite an accurrate synopsis (with references and pictures even) of the sanatan Hindu-Sikh (read: PRE-Singh Sabha version of Sikh religion.)



Read McLauliff

Are you serious? Read the former British Commissioner of British Occupied Punjab for expertise on understanding the Sikh religion?:confused:

Have Sikhs really sunk to such depths they need British Raj to explain:confused:?
(And people have problems with my explanations based on ancient Indic and Vedic heritage. Imagine!)


While Max Arthur McAuliffe achieved the position of Deputy Commissioner in Punjab in 1882, Macauliffe wrote the popular Tat Khalsa text.

‘It is admitted that a knowledge of the religions of the people of India is a desideratum for the British officials who administer its affairs and indirectly for the people who are governed by them so that mutual sympathy may be produced. It seems, at any rate politic to place before the Sikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty.’ ‘The Sikh Religion’,1909, M.A. Macauliffe, Preface xxii
Volume 1, By Max Arthur MacAuliffe p. 13
http://books.google.com/books?id=E0UwOOjrjGAC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=macauliffe+prophecies&source=bl&ots=42PJPxOnxl&sig=n83oaZVCr2jKsRsEbL4X8qP-Z9U&hl=en&ei=q-FnTKmIOYzmsQOywe3ADQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

"It seems, at any rate politic to place before the Sikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty."

No one can be serious who promotes this obviously lying weasel as any representative of Sikh faith.

darshansingh
16 August 2010, 11:34 AM
Believer ji,

Squid is talking about the principles of sikhism and you are talking about practice by some who call themselves sikhs (even if 90 % of sikhs are such)

If there are million people, they all will understand and practice their religion as the way they deem fit. So its not easy to discuss the practice of each one of those millions. The best we can say is what Guru Granth Sahib - our eternal guru - preaches is what sikhism is, even if there is no person of earth who does that. When in doubt, ask the Guru; not just any person.

The following is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh
"Rehat pyaari mujhko, sikh pyaara naahi"
which means only the principles are dear to me, not the person.

Few examples:
1. We all know that Sikhs can't cut their hair. But still half-or-more who call themselves sikhs cut their hair. Now, their action cannot make it acceptable principle of sikhism
2. All forms of Intoxication are forbidden, but in India, a large percentage of sikhs drink alcohol.
3. Same is case with caste system to some extent; and possibly to idol worship.

Shanti
16 August 2010, 03:06 PM
And the ONENESS referred to by the EK comes also from Vedas, Ek Akshara Omkara, the Primal God which is Present as vibrational Presence in Sound, and hence you understand the power of mantras. If mantras had no power of vibrational Presence of the Divine nirguna, coming into sargun perceivable form, there would be no power of Guru Vakya. There would be no Shabda. There would be no NAAM. There would be no Gurmantra. There would be no boat of mukti or method of liberation in the Kalyug.

You see, the translated definition of "One Creator God" is quite meaningless, and therefore false. Within the very term Ekonkar, or more properly, Ek Aumkar, is the very boat of mukti and the method for achieving transcendence through elevation of consciousness to the Turiya state and merging into Divine consciousness.

Beautiful!!

darshansingh
16 August 2010, 03:50 PM
Harjas Kaur,

I have no idea what your source is. All those pictures don't prove anything.

I can discuss this, only if the basis of discussion is Guru Granth Sahib; and nothing else. Because, thats the only authority on sikhism.

Is that acceptable to you ? Please let me know.

And another suggestion, being verbose is distracting. The point is lost. Please keep your posts smaller, for any fruitful discussion. You don't have to give 20 examples, when one example drives the point.

Your views don't represent sikhs. Not even 0.0001 % sikhs would agree with you.

darshansingh
16 August 2010, 03:55 PM
I suggested McCauliff because He was a christian by birth, studied Guru Granth Sahib for many years; and eventually became a sikh.

A person not born a sikh, would give a different perspective than a person who was born a sikh. He is not constrained by unwavering faith, if you will, in his analysis.

darshansingh
16 August 2010, 04:17 PM
Harjas Kaur,

You just posted half the verse. The real meaning becomes apparent as you read further.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1083&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0

squid
16 August 2010, 04:18 PM
Harjas Kaur ...
God has 4 arms according to Gurbani,

:cool1:


Guru Nanak sahib saying otherwise @Jagannath Puri ( Orissa )
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Raag Dhanaasree, First Mehl:

ਗਗਨ ਮੈ ਥਾਲੁ ਰਵਿ ਚੰਦੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਬਨੇ ਤਾਰਿਕਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਜਨਕ ਮੋਤੀ ॥
Upon that cosmic plate of the sky, the sun and the moon are the lamps. The stars and their orbs are the studded pearls.

ਧੂਪੁ ਮਲਆਨਲੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਚਵਰੋ ਕਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਬਨਰਾਇ ਫੂਲੰਤ ਜੋਤੀ ॥੧॥
The fragrance of air is the temple incense, and the wind is the fan. All the plants of the world are the altar flowers in offering to You, O Luminous Lord. ||1||

ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is!

ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ ॥
O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light.

ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad is the vibration of the temple drums. ||1||Pause||

ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤਹੀ ॥
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥
You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2||

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.

ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all.

ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.

ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
That which is pleasing to Him is the lamp-lit worship service. ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਮਕਰੰਦ ਲੋਭਿਤ ਮਨੋ ਅਨਦਿਨ ਮੋਹਿ ਆਹੀ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
My mind is enticed by the honey-sweet Lotus Feet of the Lord. Day and night, I thirst for them.

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜਲੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਰਿੰਗ ਕਉ ਹੋਇ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਇ ਵਾਸਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
Bestow the Water of Your Mercy upon Nanak, the thirsty song-bird, so that he may come to dwell in Your Name. ||4||3||

squid
16 August 2010, 04:44 PM
GURU Sahib.. ..

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਹਯੋ ਤਿਹਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਿ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
बेद कतेब न भेद लहयो तिहि सि्ध समाधि सभै करि हारे ॥ सिम्रित शासत्र बेद सभै बहु भांति पुरान बिचार बीचारे ॥
The Vedas and Ketebs could not comprehend His Mystery and the adepts have been defeated in practising contemplation; various thought have been mentioned about God in Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and smrities;


ਆਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿੱਧ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪ ਸਭੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਜੱਛ ਮਹੀਧਰ ਨਾਗਨ ਭੂੰਮ ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਚਹੂੰ ਚਕ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥
आदि अनादि अगाधि सदा प्रभ सि्ध स्वरूप सभो पहिचानयो ॥ गंध्रब ज्छ महीधर नागन भूम अकाश चहूं चक जानयो ॥
All know that Lord as beginningless, unfathomable and adept-incarnate; the Gandharvas, Yakshas, men, Nagas consider him on the earth, sky and all the four directions;


ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
कहूं लै ठोक बधे उर ठाकुर काहूं महेश कौ एस बखानयो ॥ काहूं कहयो हरि मंदर मै हरि काहूं मसीत कै बीच प्रमानयो ॥
Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥
काहूं ने राम कहयो क्रिशना कहु काहूं मनै अवतारन मानयो ॥ फोकट धरम बिसार सभै करतार ही कउ करता जीअ जानयो ॥१२॥
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥
जौ कहौ राम अजोनि अजै अति काहे कौ कौशल कु्ख जयो जू ॥ काल हूं काल कहै जिहि कौ किहि कारण काल ते दीन भयो जू ॥
If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥
कयों कहु क्रिशन क्रिपानिध है किह काज ते ब्धक बाण लगायो ॥ अउर कुलीन उधारत जो किह ते अपनो कुल नासु करायो ॥
Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥
आदि अजोनि कहाइ कहो किम देवकि के जठरंतर आयो ॥ तात न मात कहै जिह को तिह कयों बसुदेवहि बापु कहायो ॥१४॥
He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥
काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥
Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥
एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥
Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥
बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥
O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who was in past ,who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

darshansingh
16 August 2010, 04:57 PM
I once visited a site maintained by muslims and they were claiming sikhism to be offshoot of islam quoting the sentences where God is mentioned as
Allah, Rahim, Karim.

Why ?

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 01:05 AM
darshanshinghji writes:

"The following is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh
"Rehat pyaari mujhko, sikh pyaara naahi"
which means only the principles are dear to me, not the person. </SPAN>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jio, may I ask firstly: WHICH rehat Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji was referring to specifically, and whether or not you believe it is the same as the SGPC (read Singh Sabha) created document first published in 1945?



Few examples:
1. We all know that Sikhs can't cut their hair. But still half-or-more who call themselves sikhs cut their hair. Now, their action cannot make it acceptable principle of sikhism
2. All forms of Intoxication are forbidden, but in India, a large percentage of sikhs drink alcohol.
3. Same is case with caste system to some extent; and possibly to idol worship."
 
Now you have described many things which cannot properly be translated as "principles." They are clearly "practices." It is the underlying intent which would cause the practices to conform to principles or not. Simply having long hair is fairly meaningly from a spiritual principle wouldn't you say? Or are Buddhist monks NOT spiritual, and say long-haired hippies who take drugs spiritual?

1. Can you kindly show me the pauri which specifically states that Sikhs can't cut their hair?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but you are saying "everyone knows," and clearly not everyone is in full agreement, though we can concede there is a majority view, and that dominant view is Singh Sabha.

For simplest example, NOWHERE does Guru Granth Sahib state ANYWHERE that a Sikh must keep uncut hairs. On the other hand, the God (sarguna) has been described as Keshava, which is another kritam NAAM of Bhagavan Krishna.
 
ਅਨਾਥ ਨਾਥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦਹ ਬਲਹੀਣ ਬਲ ਕੇਸਵਹ ॥
anaathh naathh gobindheh baleheen bal kaesaveh ||
The Lord of the Universe is the Master of the masterless; the Beautiful-haired Lord is the Power of the weak.
~SGGS Ji ang 1355
 
Simply on the basis of spiritual "principles" rather than blindly ritualistic observances, Gurbani says this about hair:

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
kabeer preeth eik sio keeeae aan dhubidhhaa jaae ||
Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
 
ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥
bhaavai laanbae kaes kar bhaavai gharar muddaae ||25||
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
 
ਕਬੀਰ ਜਗੁ ਕਾਜਲ ਕੀ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਅੰਧ ਪਰੇ ਤਿਸ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
kabeer jag kaajal kee kotharee andhh parae this maahi ||
Kabeer, the world is a room filled with black soot; the blind fall into its trap.
 
ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੈਸਿ ਜੁ ਨੀਕਸਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨੬॥
ho balihaaree thin ko pais j neekas jaahi ||26||
I am a sacrifice to those who are thrown in, and still escape. ||26||
~SGGS Ji ang 1365
----------------------

"But still half-or-more who call themselves sikhs cut their hair. Now, their action cannot make it acceptable principle of sikhism."
 
But you have failed to establish that from Gurmat or any historical document that it even IS a principle of Sikhism.
 
But I will tell you, it is based in rehitnamay and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji. I for one, do not dispute uncut hair, but you should not pronounce your own opinion and understanding as facts without attributing any source as basis.
 
Earliest rehitnamay and Sarbloh Granth/Mangalacharan describe, not panj/5 kakkars, but thrai/3 mudra.

The 3 mudra includes: 1. kes/uncut hairs, 2. kirpan 3. kacch.

Now, traditionally the diksha/initiation required to become a chela of Guru Sahibaan was charan pahul. Guru Gobind Singh changed this to khande ki pahul, baptism by the sword. Now when a disciple takes amrit, he joins the Khalsa Army. But we know from historical record, not all Sikhs were Khalsay. Recognized purataan sampraday included Nirmalay, Udasay, sevapanthis, as well as Nihang Khalsay. The sants from these purataan sampraday were never shastardhari nor were they keeping kakkar, though they did all keep kes.

Now, modernly, if a Sikh is described in the official Panthically acknowledge SRM as being someone who BELIEVES in the 10 Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib, then he is a Sikh~! And if he is NOT amritdhari, he is not, per the modernly constructed code REQUIRED to keep the panj kakkars accepted as including uncut kes/hairs. So I cannot be sure what principles of Sikhism you're talking about here.

--------------------------------

"2. All forms of Intoxication are forbidden, but in India, a large percentage of sikhs drink alcohol."
This is also not entirely true. On what do you base this when Nihang have the tradition of sukhnidhan bhang (shaheedi degh) use which their sampraday says comes direct from Guru Gobind Singh Ji?


"A Khalsa should never be without a weapon. Do not pray without having your weapons with you. Intoxicating liquor may be taken before battle, but otherwise should be avoided. In battle a Khalsa should never be defeated. Sustain the spirit which declares, 'I shall kill the enemy!' In a fight, never turn your back or flee from the field of battle. In battle a Singh should roar like a lion. Let him do the deeds of a Kshatriya, crying "kill!, kill!" as he fights. Never wield a weapon against another Singh. ~Desa Singh Rahit Nama." http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-rehat-maryada/desa-singh-rahit-nama-p2.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_N12sxdwLe-o/R1CTMn15lVI/AAAAAAAAAHo/cIVeyL6uhV4/s400/shaheedi+degh.jpg
Nihang's following Buddha Dal Rehat to make Shaheedi Degh (bhang)

So my point is to show you here, what is blindly accepted as the Singh Sabha definition, not of itself bad or wrong, can be radically different from purataan definitions and historical practices. This should show you that fundamentalism is just an opinion. it is NOT any Absolute Truth to be imposed on everyone else, nor does it invalidate purataan and other sects who have different views which might ACTUALLY be based in historical evidence.
 

"3. Same is case with caste system to some extent; and possibly to idol worship."</SPAN>
Dear, this is YOUR opinion based on YOUR belief and understanding of Sikh practice. Have I not at least shown that HISTORICALLY there have been variances with the modern "official" view? Even Shri Dasam Granth describes the Surya Vanshi clan of the Bedi and Sodhi dynasties of Kshattriyas. WHY would caste based surnames of Guru Sahibaan exist in Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth Sahib if caste were completely denied and rejected as the Singh Sabha allege?
As for murthi puja, there ARE alternate historical sources alleging otherwise, such as Prem Sumarag describing Chandi Gul Shastars, Suraj Prakash describing Shastar and Chandi pooj, etc.
Can you please tell me what is the basis for YOUR opinion besides just opinion?

Now you may agree or disagree on the rightness or wrongness of things...but you cannot erase the history of different interpretations of Sikh religion.

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 01:34 AM
Harjas Kaur,

I have no idea what your source is. All those pictures don't prove anything.

I can discuss this, only if the basis of discussion is Guru Granth Sahib; and nothing else. Because, thats the only authority on sikhism.

Is that acceptable to you ? Please let me know.
For one thing, who can discuss interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib without having even basic knowledge of Sanskrit? Do you think it was for nothing Guru Sahibaan employed and even trained Sanskrit scholars?

Next, do you invalidate a Jatha such as Nihang Buddha Dal who take prakash of the three Granths: Guru Granth Sahib, always central as well as Shri Dasam Granth Sahib and Shri Sarbloh Granth Sahib?

Now, you want to claim that an amritdhari Sikh is someone who has chukked amrit through Khande-ki-pahul. Yet, this same amritdhari is japping 3 of his nitname banis from Shri Dasam Granth, yet you want to remove Shri Dasam Granth from the consideration? Is it even possible to have any educated understanding of Sikhi heritage, particularly of the sanatan sects ignoring the source material?

That to me is not a discussion, it frames an artificial exclusion in order to create the illusion of Singh Sabha interpretation.

Pictures mean nothing to you? Well historical pictures are EVIDENCE that what I'm saying is not merely talk. A mural of Guru Nanak Dev Ji wearing Raj tilak is meaningful. It supports the interpretation that tilak in Guru Granth Sahib was taken to mean something literal, and not figuartive. Pictures of the Mahant lineage of Harimandir Sahib caretakers is highly relevant. It disproves completely the Singh Sabha story about jathedars.

But I'm not asking you to accept my beliefs. I'm asking you to look at the history and realize there have been alternate views, interpretations and practices of Sikh religion. That has all been suppressed now.

Can we possibly discuss the historical actuality of sanatan Sikh viewpoints if we erase the sanatan Sikh history and supporting granths?

And another suggestion, being verbose is distracting. The point is lost. Please keep your posts smaller, for any fruitful discussion. You don't have to give 20 examples, when one example drives the point.
You are a rude fellow. Personal slanders against me detract from the discussion. I have said nothing about your personal qualities or writing skills. You don't like what I write, then no one forces you to read it. You begin by demanding my sources, even as you invalidate that I write long posts in order to PROVE a point of view.

I don't belive in nor respect opinionated sound-bites. Mere opinion without any evidence or logical discussion is unpersuasive.


Your views don't represent sikhs. Not even 0.0001 % sikhs would agree with you.
I am a Sanatan Hindu-Sikh, and don't even try to represent the mainstream. By the same token, you only can claim as "Sikhs" those who fit within the Singh Sabha definition and have had to eliminate from reference the purataan sampradays and various sant sect deras which have existed since time of Guru Sahibaan. Communities like Ravidasis, Namdharis, Sant Nirankaris, Nanaksaris, Radhasoamis, Udasis, Sikligers, Sevapanthis, Kabirpanthis, etc

ALL have roots in sanatan Sikh history and interpretations of Sikh religion. Can you tell me why they even exist at all?

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 04:32 AM
"Harjas Kaur,

You just posted half the verse. The real meaning becomes apparent as you read further."
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...=1&t=1&p=0&k=0 (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1083&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0)

Perhaps you could kindly be more specific than to post link to pauri p. 1083. Exactly what is your point of dispute?

You do realize that Sikhism has been interpreted differently since the very beginning and even during Guru Sahibaan times. The debates between the Singh Sabha reformers and even currently over authenticity of Shri Dasam Granth and in particular charittropakhyan are seemingly endless. I do not even believe there are formal discussions involving controversies such as Gurbilas Patshahi chevin and dasveen. But to deny there are controversies, points of contention both modernly and historically is....well naive.

But for point of discussion dear, what is your point? I don't even understand your objection here. Are you saying das avtaray are NOT associated as sarguna of the Nirgun absolute God? What exactly are you saying?

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 05:12 AM
Dear Squid

Do you have anything to say or any point to make or do you just like linking blocs of scripture and assuming they are defined and translated by everyone else in exactly the same way as in your own brain?

Regarding Shri Dasam Granth p. 1353 which you have cited...what specifically is the point?

Let me take this part here, because a religious discussion could be nearly endless.


"The Vedas and Ketebs could not comprehend His Mystery and the adepts have been defeated in practising contemplation; various thought have been mentioned about God in Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and smrities;"

I will assume this has a deep and profoundly negating view for you regarding Sanatana Dharm. But I would like to note from the outset that such an assumption would be incorrect on this basis:

For one thing, that is exactly the teaching of Bhagavan Krishna in Bhagavad-Gita. The scriptures that are manifested in this sansaar are "sarguna." As sarguna, they are "temporary" and incomplete and incapable of being themselves "infinite." If they were "infinite" they would cease to be sargun and immediately become nirgun.

Now, it is clear that simply practicing a religion will not lead to mukti, and most particularly not in the age of Kaliyuga. In previous ages, the sadhana of aceticism was more helpful but in this age more difficult to practice without corruptions. Rather, what are those methods by which the boat of mukti is obtained?


ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਵਾਚੀਐ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਆਸੁ ॥
baedh pukaarae vaacheeai baanee breham biaas ||
The Vedas proclaim, and the words of Vyaasa tell us,

ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਾਧਿਕਾ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ ॥
mun jan saevak saadhhikaa naam rathae gunathaas ||
that the silent sages, the servants of the Lord, and those who practice a life of spiritual discipline are attuned to the Naam, the Treasure of Excellence.
~SGGS Ji ang 57
------------------

ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥
vaedh kehehi vakhiaan anth n paavanaa ||
The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥
parriai naahee bhaedh bujhiai paavanaa ||
Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.

ਖਟੁ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੈ ਭੇਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਾ ॥
khatt dharasan kai bhaekh kisai sach samaavanaa ||
There are six pathways in the Shaastras, but how rare are those who merge in the True Lord through them.

ਸਚਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਾ ॥
sachaa purakh alakh sabadh suhaavanaa ||
The True Lord is Unknowable; through the Word of His Shabad, we are embellished.

ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਸੰਖ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥
mannae naao bisankh dharageh paavanaa ||
One who believes in the Name of the Infinite Lord, attains the Court of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 148
-----------------

There is no condemnation of Vedas or Sanatan Dharm anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib, and explanations of the distinction between nirguna/sarguna (infinity/finite limits) or mode of salvation (Naam jap, sankirtan of the Lord's praise and holding the feet of a Satguru) are also teachings from those same Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and Smritis. The debate AGAINST them is contrived to make a political point. Can you show me any tuuk or pauri where Guru Sahibaan counsels anyone to go AGAINST the teachings of Vedas, Shastras, Smritis or even Kateb?

ਬੇਬਰਜਤ ਬੇਦ ਸੰਤਨਾ ਉਆਹੂ ਸਿਉ ਰੇ ਹਿਤਨੋ ॥
baebarajath baedh santhanaa ouaahoo sio rae hithano ||
That which is forbidden by the Vedas and the Saints - with that, you are in love.

ਹਾਰ ਜੂਆਰ ਜੂਆ ਬਿਧੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਵਸਿ ਲੈ ਜਿਤਨੋ ॥੧॥
haar jooaar jooaa bidhhae eindhree vas lai jithano ||1||
Like the gambler losing the game of chance, you are held in the power of sensory desires. ||1||

ਹਰਨ ਭਰਨ ਸੰਪੂਰਨਾ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਿਤਨੋ ॥
haran bharan sanpooranaa charan kamal rang rithano ||
The One who is All-powerful to empty out and fill up - you have no love for His Lotus Feet.
~SGGS Ji ang 212

Compare with older pre-existing body of Vaishnavi teachings:


Being very pleased, Babaji Maharaja replied, “Sri Bhagavan has two kinds of names: His primary names (mukhya-nama) and His secondary names (gauna-nama). Names such as the Srsti-karta (Creator), Jagat-pata (Protector of the universe), Visva-niyanta (Controller of the universe), Visva-palaka (Maintainer of the universe), and Paramatma (Supersoul) are related to the creation within the shelter of the material modes. These are called gauna (secondary), because they are related to the gunas (modes of material nature). There are many such gauna names, including names such as brahma. Although their fruit is extremely great, they do not easily yield a transcendental result (cit-phala).

The names that are always present both in the spiritual and material worlds are spiritual and primary. For example, names such as Narayana, Vasudeva, Janardana, Hrsikesa, Hari, Acyuta, Govinda, Gopala, and Rama are all primary. These names are present in Bhagavan’s abode (bhagavad-dhama), and are one with His form (bhagavat-svarupa). In the material world, these names only dance on the tongues of very fortunate people to whose bhakti they are attracted. Sri-bhagavan-nama has no connection at all with the material world, and all the saktis of Bhagavan’s form (bhagavat-svarupa) are present in sri-nama.

Therefore, the names also possess all these saktis. They have descended into the material world and are engaged in destroying maya. The jivas have no friend in this material world except for hari-nama. In the Brhan-naradiya Purana, hari-nama is said to be the only way.

harer namaiva namaiva namaiva mama jivanam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
~Brhan-naradiya Purana (38.126)
Meditation is the predominant process for perfection in Satya-yuga, yajna (sacrifice) in Treta-yuga, and arcana (Deity worship) in Dvapara-yuga. But in Kali-yuga harinama is my only life, hari-nama is my only life, hari-nama is my only life. In Kali-yuga, other than sri-hari-nama, there is no other way, there is no other way, there is no other way. http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/23.html


ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਸਤੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਜਗੀ ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਪੂਜਾਚਾਰ ॥
sathajug sath thaethaa jagee dhuaapar poojaachaar ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, was Truth; in the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga, charitable feasts; in the Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga, there was worship.

ਤੀਨੌ ਜੁਗ ਤੀਨੌ ਦਿੜੇ ਕਲਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰ ॥੧॥
theena jug theena dhirrae kal kaeval naam adhhaar ||1||
In those three ages, people held to these three ways. But in the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the Lord is your only Support. ||1||
~SGGS Ji ang 346

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 05:37 AM
Penances and vows are insignificant activities compared to chanting

"Observing penances and vows like candrayana-vrata strictly according to scriptural injunctions cannot completely eradicate the sins a sinner commits. Yet, by chanting Lord Krishna's name even once, one becomes totally free from all sins.

na niskrtair uditair brahma-vadibhis
tatha visuddhyaty aghavan vratadibhih
yatha harer nama-padair udahrtais
tad uttamasloka-gunopalambhakam
(Bhag. 6.2.11)


"By following the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies or undergoing atonement, sinful men do not become as purified as by chanting once the holy name of Lord Hari. Although ritualistic atonement may free one from sinful reactions, it does not awaken devotional service, unlike the chanting of the Lord's names, which reminds one of the Lord's fame, qualities, attributes, pastimes and paraphernalia.


"Even if the holy name is chanted unconsciously, jokingly, simply for entertainment, or neglectfully, the most grievous sins are absolved, and he enters the spiritual realm of Vaikuntha, lying beyond the jurisdiction of Yamaraja, the god of death.

sanketyam parihasyam va
stobham helanam eva va
vaikuntha-nama grahanam
asesagha-haram viduh
( Bhag. 6.2.14)
http://nitaaiveda.com/Compiled_and_Imp_Scriptures/Prema_Vivarta/20._The_Glories_of_the_Holy_Name.htm
(http://nitaaiveda.com/Compiled_and_Imp_Scriptures/Prema_Vivarta/20._The_Glories_of_the_Holy_Name.htm)


So my point is what is so often used by the Singh Sabha interpretation to condemn "Hindu" religion is actually a sectarian interpretation from within it. The condemnation of ritualism and formalism and panditry for sake of egotism was condemned within Vaishnava sampradaya before Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born. And the teaching that the emphasis in Kaliyuga has become chanting the Divine Name, sankirtan of the Lord's praise, keeping the company of the sadhsangat is clearly Vaishnav bhakti and philosophy traceable to those bhatts and bhagats of North India which had such profound influence.

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 07:03 AM
ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥
काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥
Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥
एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥
Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥
बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥
O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who was in past ,who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 1353


Let's analyze the pauri a little more closely. The key to understanding it is found here:

"in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars;"

If you do not know who they are, then there is no possible way to understand what Guru Gobind Singh Ji is saying. So let's get a clue.
-----------------------------------

Prashar or Parashara was the son of Vasishtha and father of Vyaasa. He is also the sage who wrote the Vishnu Purana.
And Sukhdev Muni Goswami was the son of Ved Vyaasa and a disciple of Raja Janak. His father Sage Vyaasa was the author of Srimad Bhagavatam. But the credit goes to Sukhdev Muni for reciting the Bhagavata to the dying king Parikshit.

So, we have here 2 saints of the Vedic era. Now, what could be the context of Sri Dasam Granth? What would Parashara and Sukhdev have in common, that whoever opposed them as liars is being scolded by Guru?

So the relationship between these 2 sages is actually the foundation of Vaishnavism: Vishnu Purana and Srimad Bhagavatam. And in context of that, what could the pauri be saying?


Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ?
Well, who do Vaishnavis NOT consider as the Supreme?


There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

This isn't saying these are NOT the Supreme. It's accusing whoever is calling Shukdev and Prashar as liars, as the person who does not consider these to be Supreme.


Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses;

This is classic Vaishnavism since Mahavishnu and His incarnations are considered by Vaishnav Sampraday to be the Supreme and absolute Lord and do not worship demi-gods or lesser opulences.

The Guru is clearly scolding the people for having sectarian fights about whose God is Supreme and condemning religion itself as hollow for leading people to these fruitless disputes.

So here is the context:


sri-suka uvaca
evam abhyarthito vishnur
bhagavan sula-panina
prahasya bhava-gambhiram
girisam pratyabhashata

Sukadeva Gosvami said: When Lord Vishnu was thus requested by Lord Siva, who carries a trident in his hand, He smiled with gravity and replied to Lord Siva as follows.

sri-bhagavan uvaca
kautuhalaya daityanam
yoshid-vesho maya dhritah
pasyata sura-karyani
gate piyusha-bhajane

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: When the demons took away the jug of nectar, I assumed the form of a beautiful woman to bewilder them by directly cheating them and thus to act in the interest of the demigods.

tat te 'ham darsayishyami
didrikshoh sura-sattama
kaminam bahu mantavyam
sankalpa-prabhavodayam

O best of the demigods, I shall now show you My form that is very much appreciated by those who are lusty. Since you want to see that form, I shall reveal it in your presence.

sri-suka uvaca
iti bruvano bhagavams
tatraivantaradhiyata
sarvatas carayams cakshur
bhava aste sahomaya

Sukadeva Gosvami continued: After speaking in this way, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, immediately disappeared, and Lord Siva remained there with Uma, looking for Him all around with moving eyes.
...

slathad dukulam kabarim ca vicyutam
sannahyatim vama-karena valguna
vinighnatim anya-karena kandukam
vimohayantim jagad-atma-mayaya


As She played with the ball, the sari covering Her body became loose, and Her hair scattered. She tried to bind Her hair with Her beautiful left hand, and at the same time She played with the ball by striking it with Her right hand. This was so attractive that the Supreme Lord, by His internal potency, in this way captivated everyone.
...

tayapahrita-vijnanas
tat-krita-smara-vihvalah
bhavanya api pasyantya
gata-hris tat-padam yayau


Lord Siva, his good sense taken away by the woman because of lusty desires to enjoy with Her, became so mad for Her that even in the presence of Bhavani he did not hesitate to approach Her.
...

ko nu me 'titaren mayam
vishaktas tvad-rite puman
tams tan visrijatim bhavan
dustaram akritatmabhih


My dear Lord Sambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.



PURPORT
Of the three chief demigods -- Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesvara -- all but Vishnu are under the influence of maya. In Caitanya-caritamrita, they are described as mayi, which means "under maya's influence." But even though Lord Siva associates with maya, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by maya, but although Lord Siva apparently associates with maya, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Siva are swayed by maya. Lord Siva is therefore neither vishnu-tattva nor jiva-tattva. He is between the two.

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/39/en1


Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who was in past ,who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.
This is a clear reference to the gunas which Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva represent, don't look to the pakriti, to the Sarguna for the liberation, but the Absolute is beyond.

Here you must distinguish between the pakriti of Brahma-Shiva-Vishnu which is bondage to the mayayog, and the Vaishnavi definition of Maha-Vishnu who is Parabrahmha, the Absolute Lord. This is the problem with faulty translations that do a poor job of bringing out the deep and extensive philosophy behind these concepts.

Let's jump ahead:

ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਇਓ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗਹਿ ਦੰਡ ਕਮੰਡਲ ਭੂਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਸਦਾ ਸ਼ਿਵਜੂ ਸਭ ਦੇਸ ਬਿਦੇਸ ਭਇਆ ਹਮ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥
काल ही पाइ भइओ ब्रहमा गहि दंड कमंडल भूम भ्रमानयो ॥ काल ही पाइ सदा शिवजू सभ देस बिदेस भइआ हम जानयो ॥
Brahma came into being under the control of KAL (death) and taking his staff and pot his hand, he wandered on the earth; Shiva was also under the control of KAL and wandered in various countries far and near;

ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਮਿਟ ਗਯੋ ਜਗ ਯਾਂਹੀ ਤੇ ਤਾਹਿ ਸਭੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਯੋ ॥ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੇ ਭੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਤਜਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੨੪॥
काल ही पाइ भयो मिट गयो जग यांही ते ताहि सभो पहिचानयो ॥बेद कतेब के भेद सभै तजि केवल काल क्रिपानिध मानयो ॥२४॥
The world under the control of KAL was also destroyed, therefore, all are aware of that KAL; therefore, all are aware of that KAL; therefore, abandoning the differentiation of Vedas and Katebs, accept only KAL as the Lord, the ocean of Grace.24.
~Sri Dasam Granth p. 1355

Notice curiously that it does not say the same thing about Vishnu tattva as being under control of Kal. This is a clue to the argument which began on p. 1353 in which Guru Sahib is scolding those who call Shukdev and Prashar as liars.


Now, jumping ahead to Shastar Nama, we have a better understanding of who is KAL and the relationship to MAYA in this debate of who is the Supreme Lord:

ਕਾਲ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਗ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਜਗਬੀਰ ॥੫॥
काल तुही काली तुही तुही तेग अरु तीर ॥ तुही निशानी जीत की आजु तुही जगबीर ॥५॥
Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow, Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 1358

So this can't exactly be construed as any kind of psuedo-Abrahamic rejection of Sanatana Dharma. And who exactly is this KAL?


ਸ੍ਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਿੱਦਯਾ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਾਜਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰ ॥੮॥
स्री तूं सभ कारन तुही तूं बि्दया को सार ॥ तुम सभ को उपराजही तुमही लेहु उबार ॥८॥
Thou art the cause of peace and prosperity and the essence of learning; Thou art the creator of all and the redeemer of all.8.

ਤੁਮਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਰਜਨੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਜੀਅਨ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਉਤਕ ਹੇਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਮਿਤ ਤਿਨ ਮੋ ਬਾਦ ਬਢਾਇ ॥੯॥
तुमही दिन रजनी तुही तुमही जीअन उपाइ ॥ कउतक हेरन के नमित तिन मो बाद बढाइ ॥९॥
Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them; Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 1358

And who is it which has Lila or sport with the world and the jivas?

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਉਪਾਵਹੁ ਜਗਤ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮਹੀਂ ਪੰਥ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਆਪ ਤੁਹੀ ਝਗਰਾ ਕਰੋ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰੋ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧੫॥
प्रिथम उपावहु जगत तुम तुमहीं पंथ बनाइ ॥ आप तुही झगरा करो तुमही करो सहाइ ॥१५॥
Firstly Thou createst the world, and then the Paths; then Thou crreatest the disputes and also help them.15.

ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥
म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥
Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥
तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥
Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰੰਕ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਉ ॥ ਸ਼ਾਮ ਦਾਮ ਅਰੁ ਡੰਡ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਭੇਦ ਉਪਾਉ ॥੧੮॥
तुहीं बिप्र छत्री तुहीं तुहीं रंक अरु राउ ॥ शाम दाम अरु डंड तूं तुमही भेद उपाउ ॥१८॥
Thou art the Brahmin, Kshatriya, the king and the poor; Thou art also Sama, Sama, Dand and Bhed and also other remedies.18.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 1358

ਸੀਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਕਾਯਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੈਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ॥ ਤੈਂ ਬਿਦਯਾ ਜਗ ਬਕਤ੍ਰ ਹੁਇ ਕਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਬਖਯਾਨ ॥੧੯॥
सीस तुहीं काया तुहीं तैं प्रानी के प्रान ॥ तैं बिदया जग बकत्र हुइ करे बेद बखयान ॥१९॥
Thou art the head, trunk and the life-force of all the creatures; the whole world imbibes all the learning from Thee and elucidates the Vedas.19.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 1359


See, now the philosophy of Shri Dasam Granth is clearly a Dharmic philosophy which completely resonates with the teachings of Shukdev and Prashar, as so closely associated with Vaishnavism.

So I quite do not understand you point.

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 08:36 AM
ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥
aapae kaaran keeaa aparanpar sabh thaero keeaa kamaaeidhaa ||10||
The Infinite Lord Himself created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, Lord. ||10||

ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥
raj tham sath kal thaeree shhaaeiaa ||
Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva.

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
janam maran houmai dhukh paaeiaa ||
Through egotism, they suffer the pains of birth and death.

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਣਿ ਚਉਥੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੧॥
jis no kirapaa karae har guramukh gun chouthhai mukath karaaeidhaa ||11||
Those blessed by His Grace become Gurmukh; they attain the fourth state, and are liberated. ||11||

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥
sunnahu oupajae dhas avathaaraa ||
From the Primal Void, the ten incarnations welled up.

ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
srisatt oupaae keeaa paasaaraa ||
Creating the Universe, He made the expanse.
~SGGS Ji ang 1038

The power of the Absolute Lord comes through the pakriti of the thrai gunas. The Absolute Lord is nirgun. Sarguna is the Power of the Absolute Lord diffused in the three gunas of materiality and mayayog (veil of illusion).

And here again it is clear that a distinction is made between the 3 gunas of pakriti and the Vishnu tattva which incarnates into the world of form as the das avtaray.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaadhaeo thrai gun rogee vich houmai kaar kamaaee ||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva suffer from the disease of the three gunas - the three qualities; they do their deeds in egotism.

ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
jin keeeae thisehi n chaethehi bapurrae har guramukh sojhee paaee ||2||
The poor fools do not remember the One who created them; this understanding of the Lord is only obtained by those who become Gurmukh.
~SGGS Ji ang 735

Can you see again a clear distinction between pakriti of 3 gunas (materiality) of Brahma-Shiva-Vishnu and the Lord who created them who is called Har?

So how is Hari Bhagavan different from guna tattva (manifest nature of the world)?

ye caiva sāttvikā bhāvā
rājasās tāmasāś ca ye
matta eveti tān viddhi
na tv ahaḿ teṣu te mayi


Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair
ebhiḥ sarvam idaḿ jagat
mohitaḿ nābhijānāti
mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam

Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.
~Bhagavad-Gita 7.12-13


So looking again at Sri Dasam Granth bani p. 1353

Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who was in past, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.
We can see a clear explanation from Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars:


ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਕ ਵੇਦ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਆਨ ਲਘਾਏ ।
brahamaa bisanu mahaysu trai|ok vayd gun giaan|aghaaay|
The gurmukhs have gone ahead of the three worlds, three gunas (rajas, sattva and tamas) and Brahma Visnu Mahesa.

ਭੂਤ ਭਵਿਖਹੁ ਵਰਤਮਾਨੁ ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਜਿਣਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਸਿਧਾਏ ।
bhoot bhavikhahu varatamaanu aadi madhi jini anti sidhaaay|
They know the mystery of the beginning, the middle, the end, of past, present and future.

ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕਰਮ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਕਰਿ ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਜਿਣਿ ਆਏ ।
man bach karam ikatr kari janman maran jeevan jini aaay|
They keep together in one line their mind, speech and action and conquer birth, life and death.

ਆਧਿ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਉਪਾਧਿ ਸਾਧਿ ਸੁਰਗ ਮਿਰਤ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਨਿਵਾਏ ।
aadhi biaadhi upaadhi saadhi surag mirat paataal nivaaay|
Subjugating all the maladies, they have humbled this world, heaven and the nether world.
ਉਤਮੁ ਮਧਮ ਨੀਚ ਸਾਧਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜੋਬਨ ਬਿਰਧਿ ਜਿਣਾਏ ।
utamu madham neech saadhi baalak joban biradhi jinaaay|
Winning the top, middle and the lowest positions they have conquered the childhood, youth and the old age.

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਲਘਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੈਣੀ ਨ੍ਹਾਏ ।
irhaa pingulaa sukhamanaa trikutee|aghi tribainee nhaaay|
Crossing trikuti, the conjunction of three naris – ira, pingala, susumna in between the eyebrows, they have bathed in the triveni, the pilgrimage centre at the confluence of Ganges, Yamuna and Sarasvati.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਇਕੁ ਮਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥੩॥
guramukhi iku mani iku dhiaaay ॥3॥
With concentrated mind, gurmukhs adore only one Lord.
~Vaar 7 Pauri 3 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

Who is the One Lord who is obtained through the yoga of cleansing the nadis to bathe in the amrit-nectar from the pineal gland which transforms from duality into the fourth state of Turiya consciousness?

It is the Lord who is all-pervading the Pakriti but not entangled by it.


bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh
kham mano buddhir eva ca
ahankara itiyam me
bhinna prakrtir astadha

Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego--all together these eight comprise My separated material energies.


PURPORT
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThe science of God analyzes the constitutional position of God and His diverse energies. Material nature is called prakrti, or the energy of the Lord in His different purusa incarnations (expansions) as described in the Satvata-tantra:
visnos tu trini rupani purusakhyany atho viduh
ekam tu mahatah srastr dvitiyam tv anda-samsthitam
trtiyam sarva-bhuta-stham tani jnatva vimucyate

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gif"For material creation, Lord Krsna's plenary expansion assumes three Visnus. The first one, Maha-Visnu, creates the total material energy, known as mahat-tattva. The second, Garbhodakasayi Visnu, enters into all the universes to create diversities in each of them. The third, Ksirodakasayi Visnu, is diffused as the all-pervading Supersoul in all the universes and is known as Paramatma, who is present even within the atoms. Anyone who knows these three Visnus can be liberated from material entanglement."

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThis material world is a temporary manifestation of one of the energies of the Lord. All the activities of the material world are directed by these three Visnu expansions of Lord Krsna. These purusas are called incarnations.

apareyam itas tv anyam
prakrtim viddhi me param
jiva-bhutam maha-baho
yayedam dharyate jagat

Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.

etad-yonini bhutani
sarvanity upadharaya
aham krtsnasya jagatah
prabhavah pralayas tatha

Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution.
~Bhagavad-Gita Asitis 7.4-6 http://www.asitis.com/7/4.html

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 469

To me the philosophy is completely sanatan. Those who insist it isn't usually have not read sanatan philosophy and do not understand the origin of these concepts, terms, and rich heritage of philosophical interpretation.

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 10:04 AM
I once visited a site maintained by muslims and they were claiming sikhism to be offshoot of islam quoting the sentences where God is mentioned as
Allah, Rahim, Karim.

Why ?

Because Muslim missionaries are deceptive. If Sikhism were an offshoot of Islam, it would accept Mohammed as the last and final prophet and Koran and the last and final revelation and have long ago burned Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in fire.

Al-Islam HAS no offshoots which it will accept and not reject. It has no room for any Guru Nanak or other Granth.

Sanatana Dharma on the other hand recognizes that the Absolute Lord is all-pervading His creation and hiding behind the false appearances of Mayajog as His Lila. So every Divine Name is actually His Name.


"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

Harjas Kaur
18 August 2010, 10:49 AM
Harjas Kaur ...
God has 4 arms according to Gurbani,


Guru Nanak sahib saying otherwise @Jagannath Puri ( Orissa )


ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤ+ਹੀ ॥
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥
You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2||

this is no contradiction at all, since the God is clearly with form and without form. Do you deny what Gurbani says?


ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082

Do you deny Gurbani says:

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082

Do you deny Gurbani says:


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥
nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.

ਏਕਹਿ ਏਕ ਬਖਾਨਨੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
eaekehi eaek bakhaanano naanak eaek anaek ||1||
Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many.
~SGGS Ji ang 250
-------------------
Indram mitram varunam agni mahuradho divyah
Sa suparno garutman
Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti

They call it Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni as well as Garuda of heavenly plumage. That which exists is One, sages call it by various names.
~Hymn 164, Rg Veda

Harjas Kaur
20 August 2010, 10:04 AM
http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/guru.gif
Vaishnav sampraday. Notice the guru wearing SELI TOPI.

http://www.deragurubhadbhagsinghji.com/english/images/seli.jpg

The Topi (Cap) that originally belonged to Guru Nanak Dev Ji
http://pothimala.com/topi_page/index.htm
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/movements/Udasis/moorti.jpg
Early murthi of Baba Sri Chand Udasi (eldest son of Guru Nanak) wearing...Seli Topi.

http://asikhsangat.the-caddy.com/dsc04011cz4.jpg
Images of the Guru Sahibaan from original sanatan manuscripts in custody of Sodhi family at Guru Harsahai.


1. First throw out the Sanskrit scholars.
2. Second deny any need to learn Sanskrit, and emphasize only PUNJABI.
3. Third, remove murthis, whitewash the murals from Gurdwaras.
4. Fourth "re-interpret" Guru Granth Sahib and give new Abrahamic meanings.
5. Invalidate the older sanatan granths so people never know they existed.

and then say THIS, OUR INTERPRETATION OF GURU GRANTH SAHIB (fundamentalist) IS THE ONLY TRUE SIKHISM!!!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/389547584_866f1c09bb_m.jpg
"Painting of "Surya" (the Sun diety) found on the ceiling of the inner sanctum of Sach Khand Sri Hazoor Sahib at Nanded, Maharashtra."
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/389547584/

Harjas Kaur
20 August 2010, 10:12 AM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/387101210_866096dbf1.jpg
"Rama and Sita visited by holy men.~Fresco on the walls of the Guru Ram Rai Udasin Akhara at Dehradun, Uttranchal, India" http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/387101210/


EVEN as Guru Granth Sahib writes the NAAM of God as RAMA over 8,000 times. EVEN as RAMA is part of beej mantra syllables of GURMANTRA VAHEGURU! But Singh Sabha mentalities will say, "This is not really RAM of Sita." It is some OTHER kind of Ram.
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/387101210/)

Sikhs believe only in Nirguna, which is agochar, ajooni, saibhung and Akaal moorath." YET GURMAT does not say God is ONLY nirguna!~ Sargun manifestation of the Absolute PARABHRAMHA is none other than GOVINDA, GOPALA, JAGANNATHA, KRISHNA, RAMA, and coming to save the Dharma in various ages as AVTARAY. Same avtaray which modern Sikh Rehat Maryada claims to reject and deny.


You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour. http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

WHY would NAAMS of avtaray and devatay be considered "boat of mukti" for japa and sankirtana if they are not real and not to be believed? And if real but you deny they manifest Light and power from the Absolute God, what are they then, "devils?" You see the logic fails.~

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/410372629_57314dd6fd.jpg

Fresco on the walls of the inner sanctum of the Bhai Bir Singh Nirmala Dera at Naurangabad, Punjab depicting Narsingha (also known as Narsimha), the half-man half-lion/tiger 'Avtar' (incarnation) of Vishnu. Narsingha is the 7th Avtar of Vishnu who came to restore the balance between wisdom and ignorance.

The 'Rakshas' (demon) King Hiranyakasipu who attempted to kill the saintly Prahlad (2nd from left) has his chest ripped apart by Narsingha with his claws. Age of the fresco is estimated to be early/mid 1800s. http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/410372629/in/photostream/


ਦੀਨਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਛਾ ਨਿਮਿਤ ਕਰ ਹੈ ਆਪ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਵਨ ਸਦਾ ਆਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੈ ਆਇ ॥
Deenan kirachchhaadnimit kar hai aap upaae|| Param purakh paavan sadaa aap pragad hai aae||
For the protection of the helpless and suffering humanity the Lord Himself will take some measure and He will manifest Himself as the Supreme Purusha;

ਆਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੈ ਆਇ ਦੀਨ ਰੱਛਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਣ ॥ ਅਵਤਾਰੀਸ ਵਤਾਰ ਧਰਾ ਕੇ ਭਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਣ ॥੧੩੯॥
aaP pragad hai aae deen rachchhaadke kaaran|| Avtaaris vataar dharaa ke bhaar utaaran||139||
For the protection of the lowly and for ending the burden of the earth, the Lord will incarnate Himself.139.

ਕਲਜੁਗ ਕੇ ਅੰਤਹ ਸਮੈ ਸਤਿਜੁਗ ਲਾਗਤ ਆਦਿ ॥ ਦੀਨਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਛਾ ਲੀਏ ਧਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਦ ॥
Kaljug ke antah samai sat(i)jug laagad aadh|| Deenan kirachchhaadleee dhar(i) hai roop anaad||
At the end of the Iron Age and by the very beginning of Satyuga, the Lord will incarnate Himself for the protection of the lowly,

ਧਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਦ ਕਲਹਿ ਕਵਤਕ ਕਹ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਸ਼ੱਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਸਾਰਥ ਨਮਿਤ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥੧੪੦॥
Dhar(i) hai roop anaad kalah(i) kavtak kah bhaari Shattran ke naasaarath namit avtaar avtdaree||140||
And will perform wonderful sports and in this way the incarnated Purusha will come for the destruction of the enemies.140.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ਛੰਦ ॥
Sorthaa Chhand||
SWAYYA STANZA

ਪਾਪ ਸੰਬੂਹ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਕਉ ਕਲਿਕੀ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਵਹਗੇ ॥ ਤੁਰਕੱਛਿ ਤੁਰੰਗ ਸਪੱਛ ਬਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਢ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥
Paap sanbooh binaasan kau Kalikiavtaar kahaavahge|| Turkachchh(i) turang sapachchh bado kar(i) kaadh||
For the destruction of the sins, he will be called the Kalki incarnation and mounting on a horse and taking the sword, he will destroy all;
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 1150

-------------------

"You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour." http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html
And what happens when the Guru's bani says the One Supreme Himself has taken incarnation? You do not honor and worship incarnations even as you chant the liberating NAAMS of the One Supreme Vishnu Light in form of avtaray, also called as 4 armed Lord and Lord of Lakshmi who resides in Baikuntha? who as Lord Krishna saved honor of Dropadi?

-----------------

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082
------------------

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You.


ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082


Can you even explain it?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/410366498_7b80b609c7.jpg

Fresco on the walls of the inner chambers of the Ram Rai Udasin Akhara depicting Shiva and Parvati. Nandi, the bull is seated beside the couple (left). Shiva is seen making 'Bhang' - an almond based drink laced with copious amounts of cannabis.

The cloth held in this manner is termed "Sher Kann" (Tiger's Ears) as the ends of the cloth resemble the ears of a tiger. Akali Nihang Singhs use this same method in the preparation of 'Shaheedi Degh' - drink of the martyrs (essentially the same as 'Bhang' but with 5 leaves of cannabis) http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/410366498/in/photostream/

Harjas Kaur
23 August 2010, 04:00 AM
http://www.mynews.in/News/dailyimage/news/kabir-das-l.jpg
This is Sant Kabir Ji, born a Muslim, but became a Vaishnav bhakta and chela of Guru Ramanand Ji. Notice the Seli Topi and peacock feather? Notice cut hairs?

Now, if Vaishnavism is a "sect" within Hinduism...and Sant Kabir Ji was clearly a Vaishnav HINDU...please explain me why any BANI of Sant Kabir Ji about "idols" and falsely worshipping representations without any spiritual experience can be taken to mean anything anti-Hindu...when they were clearly uttered by a Hindu?

See this is the degree of ignorance that parades around and thinks to speak and know everything about Sikh religion, and only succeeds in condemning itself.


ਮਾਥੇ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਹਥਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਬਾਨਾਂ ॥
maathhae thilak hathh maalaa baanaan ||
Some apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, hold malas in their hands, and wear religious robes.

ਲੋਗਨ ਰਾਮੁ ਖਿਲਉਨਾ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੧॥
logan raam khilounaa jaanaan ||1||
Some people think that the Lord is a play-thing. ||1||

ਜਉ ਹਉ ਬਉਰਾ ਤਉ ਰਾਮ ਤੋਰਾ ॥
jo ho bouraa tho raam thoraa ||
If I am insane, then I am Yours, O Lord.

ਲੋਗੁ ਮਰਮੁ ਕਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
log maram keh jaanai moraa ||1|| rehaao ||
How can people know my secret?

ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa ||
I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols.

ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੨॥
raam bhagath bin nihafal saevaa ||2||
Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਜਉ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਾਵਉ ॥
sathigur poojo sadhaa sadhaa manaavo ||
I worship the True Guru; forever and ever, I surrender to Him.

ਐਸੀ ਸੇਵ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥
aisee saev dharageh sukh paavo ||3||
By such service, I find peace in the Court of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 1158

Clearly the bhakta is prescribing bhakti marg as the path to meet the Lord Rama over the empty ritualism of going through the motions of worship. Nothing is condemning or rejecting Hindu practices...at all. The mind that thinks that is clearly imbalanced.

http://www.indiapost.gov.in/images/Stamp-Rel34.gif

"Let no one ask a man's caste or with whom eats. If a man is devoted to Hari, he becomes Hari's own." Thus declared saint Ramananda who is considered a pioneer of the Bhakti movement in North India. Political conquest of Muslims was taking root and the Indian society, ever divided over caste hierarchy was slowly forgetting its glorious past of universal brotherhood, transcendental knowledge and realization of God. Several saints appeared on the scene making people aware of age old values, especially when there was a challenge of Islamic supremacy.
Ramananda was born at Allahabad and had South Indian parentage. he studied scriptures at a very young age and was a disciple of Raghavananda, an ascetic of the Sri Vaishnava order...

Disciples started coming in, Hindus, Muslims and Dalits (untouchables). Among them were Kabir, Ravidas and Dhanna. According to Ramananda, Lord Rama was the supreme spirit and humanity was one big family. He was a great preacher and drew big crowds wherever he went but his poems and sayings are not preserved. Only one poem is recorded in the Guru Granth Sahib, the holy text work of Sikhs.

Harjas Kaur
23 August 2010, 04:06 AM
ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa ||
I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols.

See the deliberate corruption here and mistranslation. It does not even say "idols" ANYWHERE in the tuuk.

It says "I do not worship (pooj) the gods (dhaevaa)."

Again, clearly Vaishnav sect teaching, he does not worship the demi-gods. But has become corrupted into example against idol worship. With this degree of manipulation of interpretations of Sikh scripture (Gurubani), can the "official" (Singh Sabha) translations and interpretations even be trusted?


Did the debaters run away after making such bold claims about Sikhism having NOTHING to do with Sanatana Dharm?

satay
23 August 2010, 10:50 AM
namaste,

Anyone who knows gurmukhi knows that there is no such thing as 'idols' mentioned in the following:

ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa ||
I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols.

Instead the word 'deva' is there.

rcscwc
23 August 2010, 09:19 PM
namaste,

Anyone who knows gurmukhi knows that there is no such thing as 'idols' mentioned in the following:

ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa ||
I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols.

Instead the word 'deva' is there.
Yes. Translators cannot be trusted at all.

What about
ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੨॥
raam bhagath bin nihafal saevaa ||2||
Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless.

Devotion to Rama is MUST.

In fact if you remove every verse containing Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu from SSGS, little more than covers would be left.

squid
24 August 2010, 10:14 AM
namaste,

Anyone who knows gurmukhi knows that there is no such thing as 'idols' mentioned in the following:

ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ ਪੂਜਉ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
thoro n paathee poojo n dhaevaa ||
I do not pick leaves as offerings, and I do not worship idols.

Instead the word 'deva' is there.

Peace to all ,

hi Satay , here Deva is same as idol or "idol of Deva", read the first part of line of gurbani again


ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ
I do not pick leaves as offerings

leaves/ flowers are offered to idol only


here is related shabad

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
पाती तोरै मालिनी पाती पाती जीउ ॥
Pāṯī ṯorai mālini pāṯī pāṯī jī▫o.
You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
जिसु पाहन कउ पाती तोरै सो पाहन निरजीउ ॥१॥
Jis pāhan ka▫o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī▫o. ||1||
That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥
भूली मालनी है एउ ॥
Bẖūlī mālnī hai e▫o.
In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सतिगुरु जागता है देउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur jāgṯā hai ḏe▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

squid
24 August 2010, 10:33 AM
Yes. Translators cannot be trusted at all.

What about
ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੨॥
raam bhagath bin nihafal saevaa ||2||
Without devotional worship of the Lord, service is useless.

Devotion to Rama is MUST.

In fact if you remove every verse containing Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu from SSGS, little more than covers would be left.

hi rcscwc

here " raam " is not KING Rama of ramayna , son of Dashrath of Hindu mythology , raam is same as Waheguru , Allah ........ used in SGGS .

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

Believer
24 August 2010, 11:52 AM
here " raam " is not KING Rama of ramayna , son of Dashrath of Hindu mythology , raam is same as Waheguru , Allah ........ used in SGGS .

I love it when every attempt is made to distance the theology from Hinduism, including throwing in the muslim card, by using the word Allah.

squid
24 August 2010, 12:03 PM
I love it when every attempt is made to distance the theology from Hinduism, including throwing in the muslim card, by using the word Allah.


Believer ji , its your understanding and you are free to interpret it that way .


i just mean " RAAM , WAHEGURU , ALLAH ..." IS ONE AND SAME



SAT NAM

Believer
24 August 2010, 12:19 PM
here " raam " is not KING Rama of ramayna , son of Dashrath of Hindu mythology , raam is same as Waheguru , Allah ........ used in SGGS .


The word Raam, used in reference to divinity, is used for one being and only one being - Bhagwan Raam, the son of King Dashrath, of Sanatan Dharam (NOT mythology). But if you don't want to be my brother and want to distance yourself from me, I will understand.

squid
24 August 2010, 12:45 PM
रामकली महला ५ ॥
Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:

कोई बोलै राम राम कोई खुदाइ ॥
Some call Him, 'Raam, Raam', and some call Him, 'Khudaa-i'.

कोई सेवै गुसईआ कोई अलाहि ॥१॥
Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allah'. ||1||

कारण करण करीम ॥
He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.

किरपा धारि रहीम ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||

कोई नावै तीरथि कोई हज जाइ ॥
Some bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and some make the pilgrimage to Mecca.|

कोई करै पूजा कोई सिरु निवाइ ॥२॥
Some perform devotional worship services, and some bow their heads in prayer. ||2||

कोई पड़ै बेद कोई कतेब ॥
Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.

कोई ओढै नील कोई सुपेद ॥३॥
Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. ||3||

कोई कहै तुरकु कोई कहै हिंदू ॥
Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.

कोई बाछै भिसतु कोई सुरगिंदू ॥४॥
Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. ||4||

कहु नानक जिनि हुकमु पछाता ॥
Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will,

प्रभ साहिब का तिनि भेदु जाता ॥५॥९॥
knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||

satay
24 August 2010, 01:34 PM
hi rcscwc

here " raam " is not KING Rama of ramayna , son of Dashrath of Hindu mythology , raam is same as Waheguru , Allah ........ used in SGGS .


Huh? :rolleyes:

satay
24 August 2010, 01:39 PM
namaste squid,
One question: Do you know how to read gurmukhi?

I ask because I do. I learnt in in school in punjab. I don't see any word in that sabad that translates to 'idol'.

Please learn Gurmukhi if you want to understand the meaning of guru granth sahib.

Anyone who tells you that sabad contains anything about 'idols' is teaching you nonsense.

Thanks,



Peace to all ,

hi Satay , here Deva is same as idol or "idol of Deva", read the first part of line of gurbani again


ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ
I do not pick leaves as offerings

leaves/ flowers are offered to idol only


here is related shabad

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
पाती तोरै मालिनी पाती पाती जीउ ॥
Pāṯī ṯorai mālini pāṯī pāṯī jī▫o.
You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
जिसु पाहन कउ पाती तोरै सो पाहन निरजीउ ॥१॥
Jis pāhan ka▫o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī▫o. ||1||
That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥
भूली मालनी है एउ ॥
Bẖūlī mālnī hai e▫o.
In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सतिगुरु जागता है देउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur jāgṯā hai ḏe▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

darshansingh
24 August 2010, 02:37 PM
ਸੂਹੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%80) ਮਹਲਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE) ੫ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A9%AB) ॥
सूही महला ५ ॥
Sūhī mėhlā 5.
Soohee, Fifth Mehl:

ਘਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%98%E0%A8%B0) ਮਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਠਾਕੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਨਦਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਆਵੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88) ॥
घर महि ठाकुरु नदरि न आवै ॥
Gẖar mėh ṯẖākur naḏar na āvai.
Within the home of his own self, he does not even come to see his Lord and Master.

ਗਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B2) ਮਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਪਾਹਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਲਟਕਾਵੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%9F%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88) ॥੧॥
गल महि पाहणु लै लटकावै ॥१॥
Gal mėh pāhaṇ lai latkāvai. ||1||
And yet, around his neck, he hangs a stone god. ||1||

ਭਰਮੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%87) ਭੂਲਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE) ਸਾਕਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਫਿਰਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AB%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥
भरमे भूला साकतु फिरता ॥
Bẖarme bẖūlā sākaṯ firṯā.
The faithless cynic wanders around, deluded by doubt.

ਨੀਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਬਿਰੋਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਖਪਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF) ਖਪਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF) ਮਰਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥੧॥ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A5%A5%E0%A9%A7%E0%A5%A5) ਰਹਾਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89) ॥
नीरु बिरोलै खपि खपि मरता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nīr birolai kẖap kẖap marṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He churns water, and after wasting his life away, he dies. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਸੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81) ਪਾਹਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3) ਕਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89) ਠਾਕੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਕਹਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥
जिसु पाहण कउ ठाकुरु कहता ॥
Jis pāhaṇ ka▫o ṯẖākur kahṯā.
That stone, which he calls his god,

ਓਹੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%93%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81) ਪਾਹਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਉਸ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%B8) ਕਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89) ਡੁਬਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥੨॥
ओहु पाहणु लै उस कउ डुबता ॥२॥
Oh pāhaṇ lai us ka▫o dubṯā. ||2||
that stone pulls him down and drowns him. ||2||

ਗੁਨਹਗਾਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0) ਲੂਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%A3) ਹਰਾਮੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%80) ॥
गुनहगार लूण हरामी ॥
Gunahgār lūṇ harāmī.
O sinner, you are untrue to your own self;

ਪਾਹਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3) ਨਾਵ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਪਾਰਗਿਰਾਮੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0 %A9%80) ॥੩॥
पाहण नाव न पारगिरामी ॥३॥
Pāhaṇ nāv na pārgiramī. ||3||
a boat of stone will not carry you across. ||3||

ਗੁਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0) ਮਿਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਨਾਨਕ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95) ਠਾਕੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਜਾਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥
गुर मिलि नानक ठाकुरु जाता ॥
Gur mil Nānak ṯẖākur jāṯā.
Meeting the Guru, O Nanak, I know my Lord and Master.

ਜਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਥਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਮਹੀਅਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਪੂਰਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A8) ਬਿਧਾਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥੪॥੩॥੯॥
जलि थलि महीअलि पूरन बिधाता ॥४॥३॥९॥
Jal thal mahī▫al pūran biḏẖāṯā. ||4||3||9||
The Perfect Architect of Destiny is pervading and permeating the water, the land and the sky. ||4||3||9||

darshansingh
24 August 2010, 02:51 PM
Following is the most blunt way in which Namdev ji says that his lord is not Ramchandra or Shiva, but the all pervading lord. He seems to speak very rude .. I guess ... to shock people to understand his point; and not raise the same doubts as many people in this forum keep on raising.

Now, Harjas Kaur how do you explain this. I don't want you to fill pages...but just clearly answer this.
Note: Namdevji lived few hundred years before Nanak.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81) ਗੋਂਡ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1) ॥
बिलावलु गोंड ॥
Bilāval gond.
Bilaaval Gond:

ਆਜੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81) ਨਾਮੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%87) ਬੀਠਲੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਮੂਰਖ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%96) ਕੋ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%8B) ਸਮਝਾਊ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%9D%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%8A) ਰੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%87) ॥ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A5%A5) ਰਹਾਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89) ॥
आजु नामे बीठलु देखिआ मूरख को समझाऊ रे ॥ रहाउ ॥
Āj nāme bīṯẖal ḏekẖi▫ā mūrakẖ ko samjẖā▫ū re. Rahā▫o.
Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. ||Pause||

ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਲੋਧੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%87) ਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਖੇਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਖਾਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਥੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%80) ॥
पांडे तुमरी गाइत्री लोधे का खेतु खाती थी ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrī gā▫iṯarī loḏẖe kā kẖeṯ kẖāṯī thī.
O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields.

ਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਕਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਠੇਗਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE) ਟਗਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9F%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਤੋਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਲਾਂਗਤ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4) ਲਾਂਗਤ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4) ਜਾਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਥੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%80) ॥੧॥
लै करि ठेगा टगरी तोरी लांगत लांगत जाती थी ॥१॥
Lai kar ṯẖegā tagrī ṯorī lāʼngaṯ lāʼngaṯ jāṯī thī. ||1||
Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. ||1||

ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਮਹਾਦੇਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%89) ਧਉਲੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%87) ਬਲਦ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%A6) ਚੜਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%9C%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਆਵਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥
पांडे तुमरा महादेउ धउले बलद चड़िआ आवतु देखिआ था ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrā mahāḏe▫o ḏẖa▫ule balaḏ cẖaṛi▫ā āvaṯ ḏekẖi▫ā thā.
O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull.

ਮੋਦੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%80) ਕੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%87) ਘਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%98%E0%A8%B0) ਖਾਣਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE) ਪਾਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਵਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE) ਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਲੜਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%9C%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਮਾਰਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥੨॥
मोदी के घर खाणा पाका वा का लड़का मारिआ था ॥२॥
Moḏī ke gẖar kẖāṇā pākā vā kā laṛkā māri▫ā thā. ||2||
In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. ||2|| ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81) ਸੋ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8B) ਭੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%80) ਆਵਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥
पांडे तुमरा रामचंदु सो भी आवतु देखिआ था ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrā rāmcẖanḏ so bẖī āvaṯ ḏekẖi▫ā thā.
O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too

ਰਾਵਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8) ਸੇਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਸਰਬਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B0) ਹੋਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%88) ਘਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%98%E0%A8%B0) ਕੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80) ਜੋਇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%87) ਗਵਾਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88) ਥੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%80) ॥੩॥
रावन सेती सरबर होई घर की जोइ गवाई थी ॥३॥
Rāvan seṯī sarbar ho▫ī gẖar kī jo▫e gavā▫ī thī. ||3||
; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3||

ਹਿੰਦੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%82) ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE) ਤੁਰਕੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%82) ਕਾਣਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE) ॥
हिंदू अंन्हा तुरकू काणा ॥
Hinḏū anĥā ṯurkū kāṇā.
The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.

ਦੁਹਾਂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82) ਤੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87) ਗਿਆਨੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80) ਸਿਆਣਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE) ॥
दुहां ते गिआनी सिआणा ॥
Ḏuhāʼn ṯe gi▫ānī si▫āṇā.
The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them.

ਹਿੰਦੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%82) ਪੂਜੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%88) ਦੇਹੁਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਮਸੀਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ॥
हिंदू पूजै देहुरा मुसलमाणु मसीति ॥
Hinḏū pūjai ḏehurā musalmāṇ masīṯ.
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.

ਨਾਮੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%87) ਸੋਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%88) ਸੇਵਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਜਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%B9) ਦੇਹੁਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਮਸੀਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
नामे सोई सेविआ जह देहुरा न मसीति ॥४॥३॥७॥
Nāme so▫ī sevi▫ā jah ḏehurā na masīṯ. ||4||3||7||
Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||

darshansingh
24 August 2010, 06:06 PM
paahan = stone for those who don't know
I am not sure whether its origin is braj or sanskrit

Squid's post says:
o silly gardner, why do you pluck living leaves for the dead stone.

This word is also used by raskhaan in doha:
paahan ho to wohi giri ki ......

satay
24 August 2010, 06:33 PM
namaskar,


Following is the most blunt way in which Namdev ji says that his lord is not Ramchandra or Shiva, but the all pervading lord.

Namdev is not saying anything new but the teachings of upanishads. Ram and Shiva 'are' the all pervading Lord.

Look, you Internet sikhs don't know your own history. Guru Gobind was a devotee of chandi or kali ma is a known fact. Doesn't matter how you malign the interpertations of your own gurus, history remains history and facts are facts.

For anyone who doesn't know the following are the names of sikh gurus:
1. shri guru nanak dev ji
2. shri guru angad dev ji
3. shri guru amar das ji
4. shri guru ram das ji
5. shri guru arjan dev ji
6. shri guru har gobind sahib ji
7. shri guru har rai sahib ji
8. shri guru har krishan sahib ji
9. shri guru teg bhadur ji
10. shri guru gobind singh ji

11. shri guru granth sahib ji (the eternal vak of the gurus)

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 04:19 AM
Following is the most blunt way in which Namdev ji says that his lord is not Ramchandra or Shiva, but the all pervading lord. He seems to speak very rude .. I guess ... to shock people to understand his point; and not raise the same doubts as many people in this forum keep on raising.

Now, Harjas Kaur how do you explain this. I don't want you to fill pages...but just clearly answer this.
Note: Namdevji lived few hundred years before Nanak.
Well, this is going to be fun. :p I can hardly contain my chuckling.

But first, we have to get our clue. And in this instance, the clue is....
WHO is NAMDEV Ji?

Because....sadly for the Sikh separatists...Namdev Ji, is another famous Vaishnav bhakta Hindu with a devotion to Vithoba/Vithala. So it is quite impossible any of his bani can be correctly interpreted as "anti-Hindu!"


Vithoba (Marathi: विठोबा, Viṭhobā), also known as Vitthala (Sanskrit: विठ्ठल, Viṭṭhala; Kannada: ವಿಠ್ಠಲ, Viṭṭala) and Panduranga (Sanskrit: पांडुरंग and Kannada: ಪಾಂಡುರಂಗ both Paṇḍuraṇga), is a Hindu god, worshipped predominantly in the Indian states of Maharashtra, Karnataka,Goa and Andhra Pradesh. He is generally considered a manifestation of the Hindu god Vishnu or his avatar (incarnation) Krishna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vithoba
http://namdevsamaj.com/images/Namgallery/O_N1.jpg
Sant Bhagat Namdev Ji born 1270. Died 1350. See murthi of Vithoba? It is recorded Namdev Ji worshipped in Vithoba mandirs. What was he worshipping if not murthi pooj?


Namdev was married before he was eleven years of age to Rajabal, daughter of Govinda Sheti Sadavarte. They had four sons and one daughter. Janabai, the family's maidservant and a bhagat and poetess in her own right, records the tradition that Namdev was born to Gonabai as a result of her worship of Vitthala in Pandharpur. This present temple building was constructed by Sardar Jassa Singh Ramgarhia and the tank by its side was repaired by Rani Sada Kaur, mother-in-law of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

God's name was always on the lips of Bhagat Namdev Ji. He was asked by the king to show miracles. He refused to do so and was thrown before a drunk elephant to be crushed to death. God saved His own saint. When the Fifth Guru, Guru Arjan dev compiled the Guru Granth Sahib, he decided to give some recognition to the saints of the Bhakti movement.

So let's analyze the tuuk in context of it's origin and author:


ਆਜੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81) ਨਾਮੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%87) ਬੀਠਲੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਮੂਰਖ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%96) ਕੋ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%8B) ਸਮਝਾਊ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%9D%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%8A) ਰੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%87) ॥ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A5%A5) ਰਹਾਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89) ॥
आजु नामे बीठलु देखिआ मूरख को समझाऊ रे ॥ रहाउ ॥
Āj nāme bīṯẖal ḏekẖi▫ā mūrakẖ ko samjẖā▫ū re. Rahā▫o.
Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. ||Pause||


See dear, this is quite the problem. Because the tuuk says Namdev saw the Lord, and the Lord's name was Bīṯẖal/Vithal/Vithoba.

You appreciate immediately the translational problem. And as this was two hundred years before Satguru Nanak Dev Ji, born 1469, it's quite impossible for the mantr formulation of Waheguru to even have been used in context of Swami Namdev Ji's writings to say this means Waheguru (or even Allah) when clearly it says VITHAL.



ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਲੋਧੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%87) ਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਖੇਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਖਾਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਥੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%80) ॥
पांडे तुमरी गाइत्री लोधे का खेतु खाती थी ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrī gā▫iṯarī loḏẖe kā kẖeṯ kẖāṯī thī.
O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields.

ਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਕਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਠੇਗਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE) ਟਗਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9F%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਤੋਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਲਾਂਗਤ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4) ਲਾਂਗਤ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4) ਜਾਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਥੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%80) ॥੧॥
लै करि ठेगा टगरी तोरी लांगत लांगत जाती थी ॥१॥
Lai kar ṯẖegā tagrī ṯorī lāʼngaṯ lāʼngaṯ jāṯī thī. ||1||
Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. ||1||


Yes, within context of the Vaishnavi bhakta tradition, you must understand they were ideologically opposed to the education professional pandits who held religious power but did not have experience of the Divine Lord. And that is what this bani is saying. And that is what this bani is saying.

It's quite impossible for a famous Vaishnavi Hindu sant to be against his own religion. That is simply ignorance of context and deliberate distorting to suit a political paradigm which didn't apply 200 years before Satguru Nanak as there weren't even any "Sikhs" to be opposed to Hindus. This was a sectarian difference between brahmin pandits and Vaishnav reform movement of bhakti sants occurring within the religion of Sanatana Dharma.


ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਮਹਾਦੇਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%89) ਧਉਲੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%87) ਬਲਦ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%A6) ਚੜਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%9C%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਆਵਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥
पांडे तुमरा महादेउ धउले बलद चड़िआ आवतु देखिआ था ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrā mahāḏe▫o ḏẖa▫ule balaḏ cẖaṛi▫ā āvaṯ ḏekẖi▫ā thā.
O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull.

ਮੋਦੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%80) ਕੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%87) ਘਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%98%E0%A8%B0) ਖਾਣਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE) ਪਾਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਵਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE) ਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਲੜਕਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%9C%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE) ਮਾਰਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥੨॥
मोदी के घर खाणा पाका वा का लड़का मारिआ था ॥२॥
Moḏī ke gẖar kẖāṇā pākā vā kā laṛkā māri▫ā thā. ||2||
In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. ||2|| ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81) ਸੋ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8B) ਭੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%80) ਆਵਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥

All these lessons given in these stories about the Gods have powerful symbolism. Vaishnav Bhagat is illustrating a point why not to give Shiva called as Mahadeva, (name Shiva does not appear anywhere in this text) primacy as per his own sectarian orientation. If we are to understand Shiva in form of Mahadeva, we know it is in context of the thrai gun Mahadevas of pakriti (material form/world/creation.) And hence is reference to the demi-gods of material manifestation.


पांडे तुमरा रामचंदु सो भी आवतु देखिआ था ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrā rāmcẖanḏ so bẖī āvaṯ ḏekẖi▫ā thā.
O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too

ਰਾਵਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8) ਸੇਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਸਰਬਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B0) ਹੋਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%88) ਘਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%98%E0%A8%B0) ਕੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80) ਜੋਇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%87) ਗਵਾਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88) ਥੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%80) ॥੩॥
रावन सेती सरबर होई घर की जोइ गवाई थी ॥३॥
Rāvan seṯī sarbar ho▫ī gẖar kī jo▫e gavā▫ī thī. ||3||
; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3||


Yes, this is the story of Mahabharat. It isn't any secret. Why should contents of it be considered "shocking?" Clearly in reference to the above, Namdev is hinting at something which lies beyond the the gunas of pakriti (material manifestation) represented by Mahadeva, and beyond the sargun roop of Vishnu avatar Rama.

We are in suspense what he will say next /biting fingernails.


ਹਿੰਦੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%82) ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE) ਤੁਰਕੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%82) ਕਾਣਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE) ॥
हिंदू अंन्हा तुरकू काणा ॥
Hinḏū anĥā ṯurkū kāṇā.
The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.

ਦੁਹਾਂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82) ਤੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87) ਗਿਆਨੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80) ਸਿਆਣਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE) ॥
दुहां ते गिआनी सिआणा ॥
Ḏuhāʼn ṯe gi▫ānī si▫āṇā.
The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them.


Oh my! Shocking. Listen the context.

Hinḏū anĥā ṯurkū kāṇā.

The Hindu is sightless, the TURK has only one eye. CLEARLY in this context, it is talking about the ethnic cultures and not even the spirituality of Hindu or even Islamic religion. The saint is saying the people of both nations are blind because the spiritual teacher, essentially guru preceptor who has connection with the God, has surpassed the empty knowledge of religion.

And you see this is quite a HINDU teaching, and coming as a hundred years or so before Guru Nanak Dev or Sikh-ism, was also part of the wonderful bhakti reform.



ਹਿੰਦੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%82) ਪੂਜੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%88) ਦੇਹੁਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਮਸੀਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ॥
हिंदू पूजै देहुरा मुसलमाणु मसीति ॥
Hinḏū pūjai ḏehurā musalmāṇ masīṯ.
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.


Now here is a reference to religion, and describing how people of different countries have different religions and practices. There is no negation so far of any religion.


ਨਾਮੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%87) ਸੋਈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%88) ਸੇਵਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਜਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%B9) ਦੇਹੁਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਮਸੀਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
नामे सोई सेविआ जह देहुरा न मसीति ॥४॥३॥७॥
Nāme so▫ī sevi▫ā jah ḏehurā na masīṯ. ||4||3||7||
Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||[/quote]


Here the Sant is saying his God is beyond the limits of religion.

Following is the most blunt way in which Namdev ji says that his lord is not Ramchandra or Shiva, but the all pervading lord. He seems to speak very rude .. I guess ... to shock people to understand his point; and not raise the same doubts as many people in this forum keep on raising.

Dear, please do some basic study of Vaishnav teachings before you presume to interpret Vaishnav sampraday as being anti-Hindu. CLEARLY per the tuuk you have provided, you have shown us Namdev Ji's wise teaching that the all-pervading Maha Vishnu Light of VITHOBA is greater than demi-gods of pakriti or sarguna. Not exactly shocking, rude, or new.

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 04:32 AM
||2||ਪਾਂਡੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%82%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%87) ਤੁਮਰਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE) ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81) ਸੋ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8B) ਭੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%80) ਆਵਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਦੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ਥਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE) ॥

All these lessons given in these stories about the Gods have powerful symbolism. Vaishnav Bhagat is illustrating a point why not to give Shiva called as Mahadeva, (name Shiva does not appear anywhere in this text) primacy as per his own sectarian orientation. If we are to understand Shiva in form of Mahadeva, we know it is in context of the thrai gun Mahadevas of pakriti (material form/world/creation.) And hence is reference to the demi-gods of material manifestation.


पांडे तुमरा रामचंदु सो भी आवतु देखिआ था ॥
Pāʼnde ṯumrā rāmcẖanḏ so bẖī āvaṯ ḏekẖi▫ā thā.
O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too

Begging cyber sangat ji's pardon as I was not able to edit the post and correct the Gurmuki over the tuuk properly and it was left hanging off other paragraph. This was unintentional and I was unable to correct. Perhaps Satay Ji will do so out of respect for the bani and place Gurmukhi script in proper order of the bani. Thank you.

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 06:17 AM
Let's examine this bani of Bhagat Swami Namdev Ji, as you have kindly provided.


ਘਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%98%E0%A8%B0) ਮਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਠਾਕੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਨਦਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਆਵੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88) ॥
घर महि ठाकुरु नदरि न आवै ॥
Gẖar mėh ṯẖākur naḏar na āvai.
Within the home of his own self, he does not even come to see his Lord and Master.


yo yo yam yam tanum bhaktah
sraddhayarcitum icchati
tasya tasyacalam sraddham
tam eva vidadhamy aham
I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship the demigods, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to some particular deity.
~Bhagavad-Gita 7.21

Let's look at this more closely: Gẖar mėh ṯẖākur naḏar na āvai.

Nadar/nazar is an Arabic word meaning "vision"
And Na is from the Sanskrit "Nri" meaning "as a human being," or more correctly in this context, that primeval human nature which is called purusha or the Supreme in-dwelling Self which observes pakriti/materiality but is not in bondage to it, and hence aspect of the Divine because of it's eternal and trancendental qualities.

Also it is related to purushottama: Supreme/uttama Self/purusha which is also known as Parabrahmha and Paramatman, the Absolute Lord.

So we can see this simple tuuk is quite obviously rooted in an advanced Hindu philosophy and conveys many deep and abstract principles in very simple terminology. "He is not even going within his own home to have the vision of the Supreme Lord which is his Original and true Nature."

So NOTHING in this could be construed as against Sanatana Dharma teaching.



ਗਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B2) ਮਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਪਾਹਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਲਟਕਾਵੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%9F%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88) ॥੧॥
गल महि पाहणु लै लटकावै ॥१॥
Gal mėh pāhaṇ lai latkāvai. ||1||
And yet, around his neck, he hangs a stone god. ||1||


How many Hindu's do you know that go around wearing stone murthis like a necklace? (Most creative translations)

OBVIOUSLY it does not say "stone god." But it says from the neck hangs the stone. It is clearly a reference to carrying a burden, a weight which prevents the interiorization needed to find the Paramatma within the home of own True Self.


ਭਰਮੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%87) ਭੂਲਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE) ਸਾਕਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਫਿਰਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AB%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥
भरमे भूला साकतु फिरता ॥
Bẖarme bẖūlā sākaṯ firṯā.
The faithless cynic wanders around, deluded by doubt.

ਨੀਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਬਿਰੋਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਖਪਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF) ਖਪਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF) ਮਰਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥੧॥ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A5%A5%E0%A9%A7%E0%A5%A5) ਰਹਾਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89) ॥
नीरु बिरोलै खपि खपि मरता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nīr birolai kẖap kẖap marṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He churns water, and after wasting his life away, he dies. ||1||Pause||


This is talking about someone who doesn't really have faith/shraddha and is incapable of grasping that which is beyond the materiality.



sa taya sraddhaya yuktas
tasyaradhanam ihate
labhate ca tatah kaman
mayaiva vihitan hi tan
Endowed with such a faith, he seeks favors of a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.
~Bhagavad-Gita 7. 22


PURPORT
...The less intelligent living entity does not know this, and therefore he foolishly goes to the demigods for some benefit. But the pure devotee, when in need of something, prays only to the Supreme Lord. Asking for material benefit, however, is not a sign of a pure devotee. A living entity goes to the demigods usually because he is mad to fulfill his lust. http://www.asitis.com/7/22.html


ਜਿਸੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81) ਪਾਹਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3) ਕਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89) ਠਾਕੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਕਹਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥
जिसु पाहण कउ ठाकुरु कहता ॥
Jis pāhaṇ ka▫o ṯẖākur kahṯā.
That stone, which he calls his god,

ਓਹੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%93%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81) ਪਾਹਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਲੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%88) ਉਸ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%B8) ਕਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89) ਡੁਬਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A1%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥੨॥
ओहु पाहणु लै उस कउ डुबता ॥२॥
Oh pāhaṇ lai us ka▫o dubṯā. ||2||
that stone pulls him down and drowns him. ||2||


Is there a difference between outward religion and inward? Does this say abandon and disrespect outward forms of religion? No! It says only, don't be deluded to think outward customs and rituals with give you experience of the God. if you never have interior experience of the God, you will drown. Clinging to customary worship only you do not get the inner experience which will transform you.


ਗੁਨਹਗਾਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0) ਲੂਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%A3) ਹਰਾਮੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%80) ॥
गुनहगार लूण हरामी ॥
Gunahgār lūṇ harāmī.
O sinner, you are untrue to your own self;

ਪਾਹਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3) ਨਾਵ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਪਾਰਗਿਰਾਮੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0 %A9%80) ॥੩॥
पाहण नाव न पारगिरामी ॥३॥
Pāhaṇ nāv na pārgiramī. ||3||
a boat of stone will not carry you across. ||3||


And this is because the boat of mukti in Kaliyuga is to chant the name of God and do kirtan of His praise and cling to charan/feet of a satguru. Since this is exactly what Vaishnavism teaches, it cannot be said to be anti-Hindu teaching or any kind of mat which negates, invalidates or dismisses Hindu philosophy...since it...IS Hindu philosophy.


ਗੁਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0) ਮਿਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਨਾਨਕ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95) ਠਾਕੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਜਾਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥
गुर मिलि नानक ठाकुरु जाता ॥
Gur mil Nānak ṯẖākur jāṯā.
Meeting the Guru, O Nanak, I know my Lord and Master.

ਜਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਥਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਮਹੀਅਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਪੂਰਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A8) ਬਿਧਾਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ॥੪॥੩॥੯॥
जलि थलि महीअलि पूरन बिधाता ॥४॥३॥९॥
Jal thal mahī▫al pūran biḏẖāṯā. ||4||3||9||
The Perfect Architect of Destiny is pervading and permeating the water, the land and the sky. ||4||3||9||


Yes, no mystery. The worship and religion is nothing without a Satguru to carry you across. It is anti-Hindu? Or a Satguru is explaining the difference between outward customs of religion and having the salvation of Satguru to lead you to inner knowing the Divine?

Again, these are Hindu teachings. Nothing is new. Nothing is contradicting Sanatana Dharm. What is you point? Here, let's get that clue again. Let's trace back the ORIGIN of these teachings:



ye caiva sattvika bhava
rajasas tamasas ca ye
matta eveti tan viddhi
na tv aham tesu te mayi
All states of being--be they of goodness, passion or ignorance--are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything--but I am independent. I am not under the modes of this material nature.
~Bhagavad-Gita 7.12


So this is the philosophy, the God is beyond the gunas (rajo, satto, tamo) of material nature and hence nir*guna, without gunas. Yet, to make His reality known to the ignorant lost in maya, the God takes on the form, sarguna. Now the form is not everything. If you get stuck just worshiping and clinging to the form, you won't be able to pass beyond form.

But to pass beyond form, you need a guru.

So the complexity of this thought is the sargun avatars that manifest in this material reality have a mode which is caught in time and illusion of maya. They are by nature as material, temporary. If you cling to Ramachandra who has blown to dust, you will be lost. It is the same if you cling to foot of Guru Gobind Singh Ji which is dust, you would be lost.

Does this mean Rama is nothing? Does this mean Guru Gobind Singh Ji has ceased to exist? Or does it mean that which has taken form and passed from form is part of that which is beyond form?

So you know, foolish and deluded people will just worship the Guru's leftover shoe, or the actual stone representation of Ram avtar will be all the god they believe in. But without the sound current of the beej mantra syllables in the NAAM, and without guru...

you don't even have ability to properly worship by getting interior and cleansing the nadis to open the chakrs and raise the energies to have darshan of the Absolute Supreme.



kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah
prapadyante 'nya-devatah
tam tam niyamam asthaya
prakrtya niyatah svaya
Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.
~Bhagavad Gita 7.20


PURPORT
...It is said in the Bhagavatam that less intelligent people who have lost their spiritual sense take shelter of demigods for immediate fulfillment of material desires. Generally, such people do not go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, because they are in particular modes of nature (ignorance and passion) and therefore worship various demigods. Following the rules and regulations of worship, they are satisfied.

The worshipers of demigods are motivated by small desires and do not know how to reach the supreme goal, but a devotee of the Supreme Lord is not misguided. Because in Vedic literature there are recommendations for worshiping different gods for different purposes (e.g., a diseased man is recommended to worship the sun), those who are not devotees of the Lord think that for certain purposes demigods are better than the Supreme Lord.

But a pure devotee knows that the Supreme Lord Krsna is the master of all. In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that only the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is master and all others are servants. Therefore a pure devotee never goes to demigods for satisfaction of his material needs. He depends on the Supreme Lord. http://www.asitis.com/7/20.html

So you see the heart of Vaishnavism, of primacy of the Nirgun Lord as Absolute is the center of true worship. And this is the same philosophy, rooted on the famous Vaishnav bhagats and bhatts, on which GURMAT philosophy is based. Understanding the Vaishnav connection, one would be foolish to misinterpret Gurbani ...as anti-Hindu.

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 06:20 AM
Let's examine this bani of Bhagat Swami Namdev Ji, as you have kindly provided.

Sorry again, as I am not able to edit and start on one frame of thought and go analyzing some other. This pauri which I analyzed was SGGS Ji ang 739 and written by Guru Arjun Dev Ji. I had originally intended to look again at the Nam Dev Bani, but switched gears to the other Gurbani. Sorry for the confusion.

rcscwc
25 August 2010, 07:06 AM
I love it when every attempt is made to distance the theology from Hinduism, including throwing in the muslim card, by using the word Allah.

rich. Sikhs claims, mistakely, they are closer to islam than Hinduism!! haha. Yet they cannot even share a meal!!

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 07:07 AM
Let's examine this bani of Bhagat Swami Namdev Ji, as you have kindly provided.

Now back to the Swami Nam Dev Ji's bani:

paahan = stone for those who don't know
I am not sure whether its origin is braj or sanskrit

From Sanskrit pasana: "stone" or "dead stone."
Example:


satyaḿ bravīmi manujāḥ svayam ūrdhva-bāhur
yo yo mukunda narasiḿha janārdaneti
jīvo japaty anu-dinaḿ maraṇe raṇe vā
pāṣāṇa-kāṣṭha-sadṛśāya dadāty abhīṣṭam



SYNONYMS
satyam — the truth; bravīmi — I am speaking; manujāḥ — O humans; svayam — myself; ūrdhva — with raised; bāhuḥ — arms; yaḥ yaḥ — whoever; mukunda narasiḿha janārdana — O Mukunda, Narasiḿha, Janārdana; iti — thus saying; jīvaḥ — a living being; japati — chants; anu-dinam — every day; maraṇe — at the time of death; raṇe — during battle; vā — or; pāṣāṇa — stone; kāṣṭha — or wood; sadṛśāya — to a state of similarity with; dadāti — he renders; abhīṣṭam — his cherished desires.


TRANSLATION
O mankind, with arms raised high I declare the truth! Any mortal who chants the names Mukunda, Nṛsiḿha, and Janārdana day after day, even in battle or when facing death, will come to regard his most cherished ambitions as no more valuable than a stone or a block of wood.
~Mukunda-mālā-stotra 40
http://vedabase.net/mm/40/

Squid's post says:
o silly gardner, why do you pluck living leaves for the dead stone.

This word is also used by raskhaan in doha:
paahan ho to wohi giri ki ......

Hindi or most specifically the language of the Vaishnav Bhakti bhagats Braj Bhasha. But in this case I believe pahana is Braj translation of Sanskrit pasana.

Raskhan was one of the great poets of the Hindi language. Though he was a Muslim, he was devoted to Lord Krishna.

"Manusha ho to wahi Raskhan, basoN braja Gokula Gaava ke Gvaraan,
Jo pashu ho to kaha bas mero, charo nit Nand ki dhenu manjharan,
paahan ho to wahi giri ki, jo dharyo kar chatra Purandara dharan,
jo khag ho to basero karo,mili kalindi kool kadamb ki daran
(In my next birth):
if i am born human, may i be the same Raskhan whereupon i would go to
if i am an animal, what else can i do but to go and graze everyday in the midst of Nanda's cows;
if i am a stone, may i be the same mountain holding which Indra was controlled;if i am a bird, may i live on a branch of the Kadamb tree on the banks of the Yamuna; Braja and dwell with the cowherds in Gokula; http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/hindu/TFIRNP04BRQS4ECO3

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 08:02 AM
hi Satay , here Deva is same as idol or "idol of Deva", read the first part of line of gurbani again

ਤੋਰਉ ਨ ਪਾਤੀ
I do not pick leaves as offerings

leaves/ flowers are offered to idol only
Why do you make the assumption leaves are offered to idol only? Do you think Hindu's worship fake Gods which do not exist and do not have any possibility of real worship or true understanding simply to give devotional offerings such as flowers?



here is related shabad
No first, here is the related concept from it's origin so we can have our "clue."

patram pushpam phalam toyam
yo me bhaktya prayacchati
tad aham bhakty-upahritam
asnami prayatatmanah

TRANSLATION
If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.
~Bhagavad-Gita As it is 9.26




ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
पाती तोरै मालिनी पाती पाती जीउ ॥
Pāṯī ṯorai mālini pāṯī pāṯī jī▫o.
You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
जिसु पाहन कउ पाती तोरै सो पाहन निरजीउ ॥१॥
Jis pāhan ka▫o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī▫o. ||1||
That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

It does not say the word "idol" or any equivalent anywhere. And it is my humble benti that the word was placed there DELIBERATELY to construe to connotation which the word "idol" represents.

Why is it that Hindu's do not call "murthis" as "idols?" Do you understand the distinction in the language? Let's have a look:


IDOL:
1. an image of a god, used as an object or instrument of worship
2. in monotheistic belief, any heathen deity
3. any object of ardent or excessive devotion or admiration
4. a false notion or idea that causes errors in thinking or reasoning
5. Archaic anything that has no substance but can be seen, as an image in a mirror
6. Obsolete
1. any image or effigy
2. an impostor
http://www.yourdictionary.com/IDOL
So when we read vichaar of Singh Sabha oriented Sikh gyani Jis, and we read descriptions such as Hindu Mythology...that is the deliberately construed meaning given by a term such as "idol."


MURTHI:
In Hinduism, a murti (Devanagari: मूर्ति), or murthi, typically refers to an image which expresses a Divine Spirit (murta). Meaning literally "embodiment", a murti is a representation of a divinity, made usually of stone, wood, or metal, which serves as a means through which a divinity may be worshiped. Hindus consider a murti worthy of serving as a focus of divine worship only after the divine is invoked in it for the purpose of offering worship.


So lets correct it:

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
जिसु पाहन कउ पाती तोरै सो पाहन निरजीउ ॥१॥
Jis pāhan ka▫o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī▫o. ||1||
That stone, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone is lifeless.

It speaks plainly for itself without need for dragging in constructs of the English language which imply fake gods, mythological superstitions or heathen gods, a concept which was not shared by the Vaishnav bhakta Sant Kabir Ji and is artificially and mischievously placed in his bani by the Singh Sabha translators.



ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥
भूली मालनी है एउ ॥
Bẖūlī mālnī hai e▫o.
In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सतिगुरु जागता है देउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur jāgṯā hai ḏe▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

So the teaching here is in completely conformity with Bhagavad-Gita that the All-pervading Life-force Divinity is in the leaves and flowers ut not the lifeless stone, and that proper worship is for the Satguru who is the Lord. And it is clearer in the next tuuk:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81) ਪਾਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਬਿਸਨੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81) ਡਾਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A1%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਫੂਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AB%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B2) ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%89) ॥
ब्रहमु पाती बिसनु डारी फूल संकरदेउ ॥
Barahm pāṯī bisan dārī fūl sankarḏe▫o.
Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.

ਤੀਨਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF) ਦੇਵ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B5) ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਤੋਰਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਕਰਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਕਿਸ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B8) ਕੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80) ਸੇਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%89) ॥੨॥
तीनि देव प्रतखि तोरहि करहि किस की सेउ ॥२॥
Ŧīn ḏev parṯakẖ ṯorėh karahi kis kī se▫o. ||2||
When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||


So for clarity the tuuk is describing the modes of worship in the flowers, leaves and branches as being the same modes of materiality represented by the 3 gunas of Pakriti of the 3 Mahadevas, and respecting the life-force of creation which is the Supreme God's Light pervading within them. And this is a sectarian view which is not at odds or invalidating Sanatan Dharm in any way. It provides an insight into the philosophical thought of the Vaishnav bhakti reform movement which revitalized people's traditional forms of worship.


ਪਾਖਾਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8) ਗਢਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A2%E0%A8%BF) ਕੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%88) ਮੂਰਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%80) ਦੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87) ਕੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%88) ਛਾਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9B%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਪਾਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89) ॥
पाखान गढि कै मूरति कीन्ही दे कै छाती पाउ ॥
Pākẖān gadẖ kai mūraṯ kīnĥī ḏe kai cẖẖāṯī pā▫o.
The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.

ਜੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%87) ਏਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%8F%E0%A8%B9) ਮੂਰਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ਸਾਚੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%80) ਹੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%88) ਤਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%89) ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%9C%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0 %A9%87) ਖਾਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89) ॥੩॥
जे एह मूरति साची है तउ गड़्हणहारे खाउ ॥३॥
Je eh mūraṯ sācẖī hai ṯa▫o gaṛĥaṇhāre kẖā▫o. ||3||
If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||


We can plainly see "idol" is not used here for what is clearly described as "murthi." If the murthi was the true God it wouldn't tolerate the disresepct of the sculptor even to carve it. And hence we see the clarity of proper worship versus the oversimplified customs of worship which become as engrossed in materiality as the murthis which are made from lifeless materials.

But this is no condemnation of authentic devotion. The Bhagavad-Gita cherished by these Vaishnav bhaktas explains clearly that devotional worship to murthy or even to demi-gods has it's place. NOTHING is a condemnation of devotion. It is a condemnation of foolishness not to have the SHRADDHA to understand the difference between representations of the Divine, and the actual DIVINE. And it is clearly saying the Guru is God, better to practice Guru bhakti and reach the infinite Lord who is beyond the materiality. So we see in context it is the Vaishnav reform of panditry, materialistic faith in the mundane forms of worship to the neglect of the more deeper and true.


ācāryaḿ māḿ vijānīyān
nāvamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyāsūyeta
sarva-devamayo guruḥ
"One should know the ācārya to be My self and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods."
~Srimad Bhagavatam 11.17.27


ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma;
the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji ang 2

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 09:20 AM
here " raam " is not KING Rama of ramayna , son of Dashrath of Hindu mythology , raam is same as Waheguru , Allah ........ used in SGGS .

i just mean " RAAM , WAHEGURU , ALLAH ..." IS ONE AND SAME

Uhm, hmmm. Well let's take a look.

Seems to me there's a difference between saying : " RAAM , WAHEGURU , ALLAH ..." IS ONE AND SAME." Which is Gurmat and explaining that the sargun forms are the Eka Parabhramha, or the One Lord Eternal who is both the sargun and the nirgun.


And then this thing over here which I think people on this forum are objecting to as deliberately hostile to Hindu and falsely separating to make a monotheistic Abrahamic paradigm in contradiction to the abundance of explanation seen in both bhagat bani, gurubani (While accepting that the Shri Guru Granth Sahib is in totality Guru's bani, but for purposes of pulling out the Vaishnav Hindu philosophy acknowledged as bani of the Vaishnav bhagats).
-----------------------------

So this little bugger is the issue:

"here " raam " is not KING Rama of ramayna , son of Dashrath of Hindu mythology , raam is same as Waheguru , Allah ........ used in SGGS."

We have already discussed this before, on this very thread the philosophical difference between nirguna and sarguna, between avtaray and the demi-gods of pakriti.

CLEARLY, nirguna has no NAAMS by which any human being can chant for liberation. So when you are saying RAAM does NOT mean Raja RAAM, you are WRONG. You are wrong because without the avatar Raja RAAM, we would not have the NAAM of RAAM. It simply wouldn't exist.

So undeniably this NAAM has come from Raja RAAM.

Let's get our clue for this...WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAKRITI AND AVTARAY?

And per Vaishnav sampraday definition the demi-gods of pakriti are in the modes of materiality, are partial opulences only, subject to death and haumai and the delusion of maya to varying degrees.

Avtaray while similarly situated as being incarnated into materiality are the very ABSOLUTE GOD (nirguna) manifesting on the earth in sargun form. So Gurbani actually does very clearly say that Raja Ram is an avatar of the Absolute Lord. And the name of Ram is therefore POTENT as a MANTRA to generate the sound current vibration from the Primal Nada OM~Pranava~arising out of the nirgun infinite....

in order to give us a boat of mukti, a NAAM we can jap which creates the vibrational Presence of the Absolute Lord who TOOK INCARNATION AS THIS FORM (sarguna), because as Gurbani clearly says, the God is both nirgun AND sargun. NOWHERE does it say the God is nirgun only, otherwise we could have no NAAM and no boat of mukti.

ਸ੍ਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6) ਜਿਸੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81) ਰੂਪੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%81) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਰੇਖਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%80) ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF) ਦਰਸਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BF) ਅਨੂਪਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi▫ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B8) ਨੇਤ੍ਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0) ਮੂਰਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ਹੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%88) ਸਹਸਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE) ਇਕੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81) ਦਾਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ਸਭ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%AD) ਹੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%88) ਮੰਗਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE) ॥੪॥
सहस नेत्र मूरति है सहसा इकु दाता सभ है मंगा ॥४॥
Sahas neṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF) ਵਛਲੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%9B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81) ਅਨਾਥਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%B9) ਨਾਥੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%87) ॥
भगति वछलु अनाथह नाथे ॥
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthe.
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%80) ਨਾਥੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%81) ਸਗਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B2) ਹੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%88) ਸਾਥੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%87) ॥
गोपी नाथु सगल है साथे ॥
Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthe.
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B5) ਨਿਰੰਜਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%A8) ਦਾਤੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87) ਬਰਨਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਸਾਕਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89) ਗੁਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3) ਅੰਗਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE) ॥੫॥
बासुदेव निरंजन दाते बरनि न साकउ गुण अंगा ॥५॥
Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. ||5||
O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A6) ਮਨੋਹਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0) ਲਖਮੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%80) ਨਾਰਾਇਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%A3) ॥
मुकंद मनोहर लखमी नाराइण ॥
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ.
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%80) ਲਜਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE) ਨਿਵਾਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਉਧਾਰਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A3) ॥
द्रोपती लजा निवारि उधारण ॥
Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.
Savior of Dropadi's honor. ~SGGS Ji ang 1082
-------------------------

ਗੁਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3) ਗਾਵਹਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF) ਸਨਕਾਦਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BF) ਆਦਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BF) ਜਨਕਾਦਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BF) ਜੁਗਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%B9) ਲਗਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF) ॥
गुण गावहि सनकादि आदि जनकादि जुगह लगि ॥
Guṇ gāvahi sankāḏ āḏ jankāḏ jugah lag.
Sanak and Janak and the others sing His Praises, age after age.

ਧੰਨਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF) ਧੰਨਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF) ਗੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਧੰਨਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF) ਜਨਮੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81) ਸਕਯਥੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%AF%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%81) ਭਲੌ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%8C) ਜਗਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF) ॥
धंनि धंनि गुरु धंनि जनमु सकयथु भलौ जगि ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖan gur ḏẖan janam sakyath bẖalou jag.
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2) ਪੁਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਜੈਕਾਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%88%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0) ਧੁਨਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF) ਕਬਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF) ਜਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%A8) ਕਲ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B2) ਵਖਾਣਿਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%93) ॥
पाताल पुरी जैकार धुनि कबि जन कल वखाणिओ ॥
Pāṯāl purī jaikār ḏẖun kab jan kal vakẖāṇi▫o.
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਨਾਮ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE) ਰਸਿਕ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%95) ਨਾਨਕ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95) ਗੁਰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0) ਰਾਜੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81) ਜੋਗੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81) ਤੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%88) ਮਾਣਿਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%93) ॥੬॥
हरि नाम रसिक नानक गुर राजु जोगु तै माणिओ ॥६॥
Har nām rasik Nānak gur rāj jog ṯai māṇi▫o. ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF) ਤੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%88) ਮਾਣਿਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%93) ਛਲਿਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%93) ਬਲਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF) ਬਾਵਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8) ਭਾਇਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%93) ॥
सतजुगि तै माणिओ छलिओ बलि बावन भाइओ ॥
Saṯjug ṯai māṇi▫o cẖẖali▫o bal bāvan bẖā▫i▫o.
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%88) ਤੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%88) ਮਾਣਿਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%93) ਰਾਮੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81) ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%98%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81) ਕਹਾਇਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%93) ॥
त्रेतै तै माणिओ रामु रघुवंसु कहाइओ ॥
Ŧareṯai ṯai māṇi▫o rām ragẖūvans kahā▫i▫o.
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A8) ਮੁਰਾਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਕੰਸੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81) ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%81) ਕੀਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%93) ॥
दुआपुरि क्रिसन मुरारि कंसु किरतारथु कीओ ॥
Ḏu▫āpur krisan murār kans kirṯārath kī▫o.
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%88%E0%A8%A3) ਕਉ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89) ਰਾਜੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81) ਅਭੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%88) ਭਗਤਹ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%B9) ਜਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%A8) ਦੀਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%93) ॥
उग्रसैण कउ राजु अभै भगतह जन दीओ ॥
Ugarsaiṇ ka▫o rāj abẖai bẖagṯah jan ḏī▫o.
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF) ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81) ਨਾਨਕ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95) ਗੁਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਅੰਗਦੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A6%E0%A9%81) ਅਮਰੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81) ਕਹਾਇਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%93) ॥
कलिजुगि प्रमाणु नानक गुरु अंगदु अमरु कहाइओ ॥
Kalijug parmāṇ Nānak gur angaḏ amar kahā▫i▫o.
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80) ਗੁਰੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%82) ਰਾਜੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%81) ਅਬਿਚਲੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81) ਅਟਲੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%9F%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81) ਆਦਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BF) ਪੁਰਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AB%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%93) ॥੭॥
स्री गुरू राजु अबिचलु अटलु आदि पुरखि फुरमाइओ ॥७॥
Sarī gurū rāj abicẖal atal āḏ purakẖ furmā▫i▫o. ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji ang 1390
----------------------


Now, if the God incarnates as the Yuga avatars, and Raja Raam Raghuvans is the Satguru of the Treta Yuga, then CLEARLY the aspect of Him which is from the Absolute Supreme is called by His Name.

And IF, the Guru is unchanging from age to age, but in Treta Yuga he was MYTHOLOGICAL...then Guru Nanak Dev Ji was mythological too.

Harjas Kaur
25 August 2010, 09:48 AM
I'm curious if the Sikhs who deny Sanatan Dharm background in Gurbani can please clarify for me.

1. Do you believe that Gurbani is mythological? If so, why do you bow your hairs down to a book of myths?

2. Do you believe the NAAMs for the Divine Lord are mythological (made up, based on fake stories that never really happened?) and if so, how can you believe that Naam jap is any boat of mukti for anyone?

3. If you don't believe NAAM is based on any reality, and is just made up mythological NAAMs for God, how can anyone be sure, since you admit falsehood is in Gurbani, that other parts aren't false too? Why practice japa at all? And please then, you must admit Sikhi is a failed religion which has no boat of mukti at all.

4. If you believe some is true but some is fake myth, on what authority is the vivek to distinguish the truth from the myth? Or is "mythological" anything in Gurbani from Vedic, Puranic Hindu background?

5. Why are you wasting everybody's time trying to explain a religion which you don't even believe has basis in reality? But if perchance you believe there is reality to Gurbani, then please acknowledge that Sri Ramachandra Ji of Raghu dynasty is Yuga avatar of the Supreme Lord for the Treta Yuga and that His Name is a boat of mukti for the Kali Yuga.

Thanks.

darshansingh
25 August 2010, 10:48 AM
who claims?

The synonym for God in guru granth sahib are:
rama, madhav, gusain, ...Allah, rahim and so on.

Sikhs are distinct from muslims and hindus; Indian sikhs share a lot of cultural identity with hindus since it started in India.

Similarly, the white sikhs share cultural identity with christians, atheists or pagans.

Believer
25 August 2010, 11:48 AM
Sikhs are distinct from muslims and hindus;

Why are muslims even brought into the equation? Muslims hate everyone and they will not stop until they have converted everyone in sight to Islam. So, why would anyone even claim any affinity to them or compare their religion to them or mention them in any discussion of their religion is beyond me, unless it was meant to distance themselves from Hindus.

Here is the Pride of India, Milkha Singh's story, which Rakyesh is planning to make into a Bollywood movie,

"Milkha and his entire family were caught tragically in a massacre during the time of the partition of India soon after gaining Independence from the British. As a young kid barely in his teens he saw his entire family being hacked to death in front of his eyes during the rioting that took place on the Pakistan side. And all he could see and remember was his dying Father screaming to him, ” dauD .. dauD Milkha dauD ” , run..run Milkha run, to escape from being killed by the marauding rioters.
As Milkha ran for his life from this gruesome scenario, the voice of his Father urging him to escape, what would have crossed this young man's mind, heart and indeed his world. The visuals of the dastardly act perpetually within him, his entire family killed before his very eyes, impoverished and alone, he ran across to the Indian side of the imaginary border and became one of the greatest ‘runners’ of the country !"

Time to wake up and see the forest rather than be focused one tree. Keeping the blinders provided by the Tat Khalsa Sabha 'on', and fearing that existence of the religion was in peril because of Hindus, sure is a miserable way to live. There can be no spiritual growth with this thinking. It will remain a lip service to the professed faith with no spiritual advancement in this lifetime. May the sikhs see this and the sikh faith live for ever!



Indian sikhs share a lot of cultural identity with hindus

What a revelation!
Sikhs did not drop in to Punjab from the skies. They came from the Punjabi Hindu families. They share their blood with me. Why would they, or should they be different. Just saying that they share their cultural identity with me is disappointing. Who would they share their identity with?
We, your ancestors and mine, originated from the same tree.
We, your ancestors and mine, toiled in the same rich soil of Punjab.
We, your ancestors and mine, had a shared language.
We, your ancestors and mine, sang the same songs.
We, your ancestors and mine, celebrated the same festivals.
We, your ancestors and mine, covered each others' back.
We, your ancestors and mine, shared each others' joys, and wiped each others' tears.
We, your ancestors and mine, danced and rejoiced together on the marriages of our children.
We, your ancestors and mine, were both proud sons of Punjab.

And, today you have been 'made to' think that you are an alien race and "just" happen to share your culture with me?

Come on!

Use your head. I know you are a smart man. Such comments are beneath you.
Don't disappointment me.
And don't disappoint your creator!
May the Sikh identity live for ever.

Yogkriya
25 August 2010, 04:18 PM
Why are muslims even brought into the equation? Muslims hate everyone and they will not stop until they have converted everyone in sight to Islam. So, why would anyone even claim any affinity to them or compare their religion to them or mention them in any discussion of their religion is beyond me, unless it was meant to distance themselves from Hindus.

Here is the Pride of India, Milkha Singh's story, which Rakyesh is planning to make into a Bollywood movie,

"Milkha and his entire family were caught tragically in a massacre during the time of the partition of India soon after gaining Independence from the British. As a young kid barely in his teens he saw his entire family being hacked to death in front of his eyes during the rioting that took place on the Pakistan side. And all he could see and remember was his dying Father screaming to him, ” dauD .. dauD Milkha dauD ” , run..run Milkha run, to escape from being killed by the marauding rioters.
As Milkha ran for his life from this gruesome scenario, the voice of his Father urging him to escape, what would have crossed this young man's mind, heart and indeed his world. The visuals of the dastardly act perpetually within him, his entire family killed before his very eyes, impoverished and alone, he ran across to the Indian side of the imaginary border and became one of the greatest ‘runners’ of the country !"

Time to wake up and see the forest rather than be focused one tree. Keeping the blinders provided by the Tat Khalsa Sabha 'on', and fearing that existence of the religion was in peril because of Hindus, sure is a miserable way to live. There can be no spiritual growth with this thinking. It will remain a lip service to the professed faith with no spiritual advancement in this lifetime. May the sikhs see this and the sikh faith live for ever!



What a revelation!
Sikhs did not drop in to Punjab from the skies. They came from the Punjabi Hindu families. They share their blood with me. Why would they, or should they be different. Just saying that they share their cultural identity with me is disappointing. Who would they share their identity with?
We, your ancestors and mine, originated from the same tree.
We, your ancestors and mine, toiled in the same rich soil of Punjab.
We, your ancestors and mine, had a shared language.
We, your ancestors and mine, sang the same songs.
We, your ancestors and mine, celebrated the same festivals.
We, your ancestors and mine, covered each others' back.
We, your ancestors and mine, shared each others' joys, and wiped each others' tears.
We, your ancestors and mine, danced and rejoiced together on the marriages of our children.
We, your ancestors and mine, were both proud sons of Punjab.

And, today you have been 'made to' think that you are an alien race and "just" happen to share your culture with me?

Come on!

Use your head. I know you are a smart man. Such comments are beneath you.
Don't disappointment me.
And don't disappoint your creator!
May the Sikh identity live for ever.


You are right on.
Hinduism contains all of it.

Sikhism is essentially based on impersonal Bhakti plus a few other elements that were necessary as per time and tide.
In some ways, it took some features similar to Islam and muslims of the time like keeping beard etc.

There is nothing new in it that the Vedic Hinduism hasn't got.
And who were the Sikhs? The glorious "Panch Peyares"?? They were the Hindus of Punjab!!! Who took up arms against the muslim oppression of the time under the able leadership of Guru Govind Rai (Singh). (Govind = one of the names of Krishna/Hari).

The identity differentiation is outward mostly. Inward, the Sikhs and the Hindus are pretty much sons of the same mother.
And if we understand Nanak, inward spiritualistic understanding is important than outward image.

The "Ek Omkar" is the same OM of the Vedas.
The "Akal Purukh" is "aakal purush": the Mahakaal.

And of course jo bole so nihal - Sat- Sri - Akal !
Akal - that is beyond time - that is Mahakaal.
Sadashiv - beyond time and space - eternal.
So who - so ever glorifies the the great eternal God is blessed.
Namaskar! Satsriakal.

Yogkriya

Believer
25 August 2010, 04:39 PM
it took some features similar to Islam and muslims of the time like keeping beard


Editor Sahib,

I wish you would organize your thoughts and weigh each word spoken/written - that is your declared professional specialty.

Keeping beard is what they copied from muslims?
Dang!

Yogkriya
26 August 2010, 03:33 AM
Editor Sahib,

I wish you would organize your thoughts and weigh each word spoken/written - that is your declared professional specialty.

Keeping beard is what they copied from muslims?
Dang!

Well, not exactly. Hey most people used turbans in the days. The muslims kept beard and so did (still do) the sikhs. To be honest, I don't know anymore why it was made necessary for sikhs to keep beard. Does it serve a spiritual purpose? As far as I can imagine, none. So it has to be a social thing.
Also, keeping hair saves the trouble of cutting them during odd conditions of war, whether its gorilla warfare or open attacks.
Sikhs essentially took up arms and organized to fight the then ongoing muslim oppression of India and religion. It was started as a martial group. Was it a warfare tactic to look a bit like the muslims? I don't know.
But yes official version of keeping hair is that hair is part of body and gift of God and should not be cut. It also represents nobility and manhood. But on the other hand a clean shaven man can also be manly and noble. Its what you keep something as a symbol to fix you mind on a certain virtue which seems to be the purpose. The symbolic meaning. Not a direct use.
In Hindu sadhnas, sadhaks or sadhus also do not cut hair.

I'd like to recall this - A Lion remains a lion irrespective of the hair.

I organize my thoughts more meticulously when I write a research paper or edit articles. Most people write here as the thoughts flow. Its good I don't have to consult history books on every post. Besides so many are twisted by the Moghuls and the Brits, that a major chunk of Indian history (like the true story of Taj Mahal and other Hindu monuments, Aryan invasion etc.) have been falsified and its what we are fed officially.
But I will keep in mind your kind advice dear. The discussions are healthy and good.
Warm regards.

Yogkriya

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 04:58 AM
"it took some features similar to Islam and muslims of the time like keeping beard."
:(

http://ic2.pbase.com/u11/bmcmorrow/small/37969773.DSC_1818.jpg http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adsingh/images/Sikhs/5k_kes.gif

"To be honest, I don't know anymore why it was made necessary for sikhs to keep beard. Does it serve a spiritual purpose? As far as I can imagine, none. So it has to be a social thing."
:confused:

It's called yoga. The hair is worn in a topknot over the tenth gate/dasam duaara to form a seal/mudra. By japping pranayam gurmantra you place you surti/conscious attention on the praan and with the mantr vitalizes it with shakti to pierce the chakrs of the body, ascending by cleaning the nadis and vrittis of the body-mind, to close the 9 gates of the body and open the tenth gate, sahasrara chakr.

ਰੋਮੇ ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮੇ ਮੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਰਾਮ ॥
romae rom rom romae mai guramukh raam dhhiaaeae raam ||
With each and every hair, with each and every hair, as Gurmukh, I meditate on the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 443

------------------------

ਹਰਿ ਭਜੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਰਸਨ ਰਸਾਇ ॥੩॥
har bhaj praanee rasan rasaae ||3||
O mortal, lovingly vibrate the Lord's Name with your tongue.
~SGGS Ji ang 222

------------------------

ਮੂਲ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਬੰਧਿਆ ਬੰਧੁ ॥
mool dhuaarai bandhhiaa bandhh ||
In the first chakra, the root chakra, I have grasped the reins and tied them.
~SGGS Ji ang 1159

------------------------

ਉਲਟਤ ਪਵਨ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਖਟੁ ਭੇਦੇ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਅਨਰਾਗੀ ॥
oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||
I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 333

------------------------

ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਦਸਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
no dharavaajae dhasavai mukathaa anehadh sabadh vajaavaniaa ||3||
Beyond the nine gates, the Tenth Gate is found, and liberation is obtained. The Unstruck Melody of the Shabad vibrates.
~SGGS Ji ang 110

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ਨਉ ਦਰ ਠਾਕੇ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਾਏ ॥
no dhar thaakae dhhaavath rehaaeae ||
Those who close off the nine gates, and restrain the wandering mind,

ਦਸਵੈ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਏ ॥
dhasavai nij ghar vaasaa paaeae ||
come to dwell in the Home of the Tenth Gate.
~SGGS Ji ang 124

-----------------------

ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਨਹਦ ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ ਬਾਜੈ ॥
raajaa raam anehadh kinguree baajai ||
The Unstruck Melody of the Sovereign Lord's Harp vibrates;

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਨਾਦ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jaa kee dhisatt naadh liv laagai ||1|| rehaao ||
by His Glance of Grace, we are lovingly attuned to the Sound-current of the Naad.

ਭਾਠੀ ਗਗਨੁ ਸਿੰਙਿਆ ਅਰੁ ਚੁੰਙਿਆ ਕਨਕ ਕਲਸ ਇਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||
The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat.

ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰਸ ਮਹਿ ਰਸਨ ਚੁਆਇਆ ॥੨॥
this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||
Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure essence of all distilled essences.

ਏਕ ਜੁ ਬਾਤ ਅਨੂਪ ਬਨੀ ਹੈ ਪਵਨ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਸਾਜਿਆ ॥
eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||
Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨੁ ਹੈ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੩॥
theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||
In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him? ||3||
~SGGS Ji ang 92

------------------------

ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੋ ਧਰਤਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਉਲਘਿ ਪਇਆਣਾ ।
paunu paanee baisantaro dharati akaasu ulaghi paiaanaa|
Gurmukh goes beyond air, water, fire, earth and sky.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਲਘਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ।
kaamu krodhu virodhu|aghi|obhu mohu ahankaaru vihaanaa|
Resisting lust and anger he crosses the greed, infatuation and ego.

ਸਤਿ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਦਇਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਰਥੁ ਸੁ ਗਰੰਥੁ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ।
sati santokh daiaa dharamu aradu su garandu panch paravaanaa|
He espouses truth, contentment, compassion, dharma and fortitude.

ਖੇਚਰ ਭੂਚਰ ਚਾਚਰੀ ਉਨਮਨ ਲਘਿ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਬਾਣਾ ।
khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa|
Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord.

ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੋ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਘਨਘੋਰ ਨੀਸਾਣਾ ।
panchaain paramaysaro panch sabad ghanaghor neesaanaa|
He beholds God in five (select persons) and the five sounds of five words become his special marks.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਆਤਮਾ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਸੁਹਾਣਾ ।
guramukhi panch bhooaatamaa saadhasangati mili saadh suhaanaa|
Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by gurmukh in the holy congregation.

ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੫॥
sahaj samaadhi n aavan jaanaa ॥5॥
This way immersing in undisturbed trance he gets liberated from the cycle of transmigration.
~Vaar 7 Pauri 5 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 06:05 AM
sarva-karmāṇi manasā
sannyasyāste sukhaḿ vaśī
nava-dvāre pure dehī
naiva kurvan na kārayan
When the embodied living being controls his nature and mentally renounces all actions, he resides happily in the city of nine gates [the material body], neither working nor causing work to be done.
~Bhagavad-Gita Asitis 5.13

--------------------------


"In the language of yoga, the purpose or the effect of continuous nada sadhana on the human mind is ananda- extreme bliss. Nada, or sound, is divided into two parts - aahada and anhada, heard and unheard. Heard means that which is possible for you to hear 'through the physical ears', and unheard means 'felt', which is the condition of nada before it is musically shaped and regularized. Then come the shrutis, then swaras, notes, which from time to time have been explained by the masters." ~Peace of Mind: Shunya to Nada Yoga - Journey of Peace http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Peace_of_Mind/id/219733

-----------------------------
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||
The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||
The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
bin gur poorae ghor andhhaar ||1||
Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness.
~SGGS Ji ang 1270



Analyze this vaak: "guramukh naadh baedh beechaar." The Gurmukh is learning/reflecting on the wise teaching/vichaar which is coming from Naad and Vedas. What is the essence of Vedas whose wise vichaar is contemplated by Gurmukh and which resounds out of the Primal Naad? That essence is Sruti, sacred and timeless Truth which is vibrating in the Vedas, and that which vibrates in the Vedas is the NAAM.


ਇਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਟ ਬ੍ਰਤੀ ॥ ਇਮ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਾਰਤ ਸਾਰਸੁਤੀ ॥
Ik naam binaa nahoo kot bratoo|| Im Bed uchaarat Saarsutoo||
Without One Lord’s Name, one cannot be saved even by millions of fasts. The Superb Shrutis (of the Vedas) declare thus.

ਜੋਊ ਵਾ ਰਸ ਕੇ ਚਸਕੇ ਰਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇਊ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਕਾਲ ਫੰਧਾ ਫਸਿ ਹੈਂ॥੨੦॥੧੬੦॥
Jooo vaa ras ke chaske ras hain|| Teoo bhool na kaal phandhaa phas(i) hain||20||160||
Those, who are absorbed with the ambrosia of the Name even by Mistake, they will not be entrapped in he snare of death.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 64


-------------------------
oḿ ity ekākṣaraḿ brahma
vyāharan mām anusmaran
yaḥ prayāti tyajan dehaḿ sa
yāti paramāḿ gatim oḿ

—the combination of letters oḿ (oḿkāra); iti — thus; eka-akṣaram —the one syllable; brahma — absolute; vyāharan — vibrating; mām — Me(Kṛṣṇa); anusmaran — remembering; yaḥ — anyone who; prayāti —leaves; tyajan — quitting; deham — this body; saḥ — he; yāti —achieves; paramām — the supreme; gatim — destination.

After being situated in this yoga practice and vibrating the sacred syllable Oḿ, the supreme combination of letters, if one thinks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and quits his body, he will certainly reach the spiritual planets.
~Bhagavad-Gita 8:13

-----------------------

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥
baedh puraan sinmrith sudhhaakhyar ||
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,

ਕੀਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥
keenae raam naam eik aakhyar ||
were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji ang 262

------------------------

Sruti is intimately related to the Shabda Brahman, which is a Word-Akshara which vibrates-Spanda. Sruti is that which is heard vibrating from higher dimensional reality of Divine Sound Roop. As such it is the essence of Truth and Gyaan of the Vedas. Sruti is that which has been perceived directly and transmitted to mankind in a form we can understand, language. But carried within the words by vibrational Truth is the Sound Presence of the Divine and the means to Divine Perception and liberation. Only a Satguru can give us the grace to perceive Divine Truth on this level. It can never be understood simply by reading or reciting the words. It has to be received as an empowerment/initiation by guru.


ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਾਤੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗ ਸਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥
sathigur dhaathai naam dhirraaeiaa mukh masathak bhaag sabhaagae ||1||
The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me. A very blessed and fortunate destiny is recorded upon my forehead.
~SGGS Ji ang 171

-----------------------------

Diksha/dheekya is a requirement, and the sadhana is japa of the guru's mantra as well as this curiosity, since Singh Sabha claims the Guru Sahibaan rejected it...oh yes, THAPASIYA!~ Imagine!


ਗੁਰ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਲੇ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
gur dheekhiaa lae jap thap kamaahi ||
You have received the Guru's Teachings - now practice meditation and penance.

ਨਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਤੂਟੈ ਨਾ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੫॥
naa mohu thoottai naa thhaae paahi ||5||
If attachment is not broken, no one is approved.
~SGGS Ji ang 356

---------------------



Śruti: श्रुति,IAST: śrúti, lit. "hearing, listening")...This literature differs from other sources of Hindu Law, particularly smṛti or “remembered text”, because of the purely divine origin of śruti. This belief of divinity is particularly prominent within the Mimamsa tradition. The initial literature is traditionally believed to be a direct revelation of the “cosmic sound of truth” heard by ancient Rishis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sruti


From this (Unmeṣa-Appearance), Bindú --divine light, Nādá --divine sound--,Rūpá --divine form-- and Rása --divine taste-- soon appear to an embodied soul as a disturbing factor. ~Spanda Karikas Section 1,aphorism 10.

What is the Bindu? Bindu in Sanskrit means "point." It also means "drop." From the Bindu chakra flows the amrit nectar which is tasted on the tongue.


Bindu refers to an aspect of the anatomy of the 'subtle body' composed of 'drops' (Tibetan: tikle; tigle; thigle) and 'winds' (Tibetan: rLung): "the drops and winds are features of the human energy system and have varying degrees of subtlety."[2]In the Shakta tantra school of philosophy, there is said to exist a Bindu chakra, at the back of the head, in the part where Brahmins grow their small tuft of hair, although it is often not mentioned in traditional chakrologies. This centre is said to be where the Bindu fluid is produced, a fluid that can become either the nectar of immortality, or the poison of death. This Bindu fluid is often conflated with both male and female gamete(s) (that is semen or ova) and amrita in Tantrism. It is intimately connected to the Vishuddha chakra, and awakening the Vishuddha chakra is held in the Tantric traditions to awaken the Bindu chakra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindu



ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਚੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਰਸਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥
jihavaa rathee sabadh sachai anmrith peevai ras gun gaae ||
The tongue imbued with the True Word of the Shabad drinks in the Amrit with delight, singing His Glorious Praises.
~SGGS Ji ang 36


In metaphysical terms Bindu is held to be the point at which begins creation and the point at which the unity becomes the many. It is also described as "the sacred symbol of the cosmos in its unmanifested state." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindu
The single point, "Bindu" is actually where the nirgun becomes the sargun. It is where the 3 states of consciousness can transcend duality and reach the Fourth state.


"The Bindu Chakra bestows physical and mental health, vitality and youthfulness, because it produces “the nectar of immortality” (Amrita).This nectar usually drops into the Manipura Chakra where it is burned by the digestive fire without being fully utilised by the body. For this reason the Rishis of ancient times sought a method to collect this valuable nectar and discovered that the flow of nectar can be arrested with the help of the tongue and Vishuddhi Chakra. The tongue contains subtle energy centres, each corresponding to an organ or area of the body. In the Yoga techniques of Ujjayi Pranayama and Khechari Mudra, the tongue curbs the flow of nectar and stores it in the Vishuddhi Chakra. Like a homeopathic medicine it is then redistributed throughout the whole body via the subtle energy channels, where its healing effects unfold." http://system.yogaindailylife.org/yoga/en/180700/chakras/bindu-chakra/

According to Kashmiri Shaiva teachings on Spanda yoga, the nirgun Supreme God becomes Form, Light, Sound and Taste. That taste being the amrit nectar obtained by NAAM rasna. And the Lord is experienced because of the spiritual practices of Mantra NAAM jap through unfolding of sehaj (unforced, natural, product of Guru's grace) samadhi like fruit that ripens on a tree. Sruti are those Divine Truths which have been perceived by the Rshis vibrating in the Shabad-Word/Sound of NAAM, mantra, and Guru vak as coming directly from the Shabda Brahman swaroop of nirgun God.


ਵਿਚਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਗਿਰਾਸੁ ॥
vich aapae janth oupaaeian mukh aapae dhaee giraas ||
He Himself created the beings there, and He Himself places food in their mouths.
~SGGS Ji ang 302

The Sanskrit root of is which means primary meaning: ; and secondary meaning So the word is reflective of our calling out to the Almighty with hunger, longing to taste the sweetness of the Lord and our taking Him into ourselves as sustenance. This is the profound meaning behind sas giras NAAM simran. NAAM is not only carried on the "sas" of our praanic lifeforce breath, but it is also nourishment to satisfy our suffering hunger which Guru feeds us, giraas. So we can see clearly by this descriptor how intimately related is the concept that God is our father and our mother.


ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ॥
maeraa piaaraa preetham sathigur rakhavaalaa ||
My Darling Beloved True Guru is my Protector.

ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਦੀਨ ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ॥
ham baarik dheen karahu prathipaalaa ||
I am a helpless child-please cherish me.

ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਜਲ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
maeraa maath pithaa gur sathigur pooraa gur jal mil kamal vigasai jeeo ||3||
The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, is my Mother and Father. Obtaining the Water of the Guru, the lotus of my heart blossoms forth.

ਮੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਦੇਖੇ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
mai bin gur dhaekhae needh n aavai ||
Without seeing my Guru, sleep does not come.

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਤਨਿ ਵੇਦਨ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਰਹੁ ਲਗਾਵੈ ॥
maerae man than vaedhan gur birahu lagaavai ||
My mind and body are afflicted with the pain of separation from the Guru.
~SGGS Ji ang 94



"One whose prabhava i.e., udaya or appearance or manifestation (abhivyakti) comes about from the vibhava i.e. the inner unfoldment of the mass of light i.e., the divinities of the senses (rasmi punja) (i,e, Shankara who is manifested by an inner development of the senses). The sense is that the recognition of the highest Lord is brought about effortlessly by the practice of perception of the inner nature." ~The Yoga of Pulsation and Divine Vibration http://books.google.com/books?id=sQwtCrGERjkC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=unmesa+yoga&source=bl&ots=7izpAUlUpM&sig=hxAdORRW76KFbyBQHpSIy_WWthA&hl=en&ei=muleS72DGI68sgPulIjFCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCYQ6AEwCQ#


ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਅਗਮੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
pranavath naanak agam sunaaeae ||
Prays Nanak, I share the mysterious secrets of God.

ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਕੀ ਸੰਧਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
gur chaelae kee sandhh milaaeae ||
The Guru and His disciple are joined together!
~SGGS Ji ang 877


----------------------

ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥੮॥੩॥
joth niranthar jaaneeai naanak sehaj subhaae ||8||3||
The Divine Light within is revealed, O Nanak, through this intuitive understanding.
~SGGS Ji ang 55


So all these concepts, Guru, chela, diksha, gurmantra, Naam jap, tapas, the city of nine gates, the tenth gate, the chakrs, the nadis, pranayama, yoga, dharma, karma, atma, Paramatma, nirguna, sarguna, Yugas, etc....

Those are all Vedic, Puranic, Tantric concepts derived from the tremendous spiritual treasure of Indic Sanatana Dharma. Foolish is the person who refuses to acknowledge so great a heritage which even the Guru Sahibaan preserved and instructed.

Can someone prove from Gurbani ANY Islamic teachings to show HOW Sikhism is related to Islam? Please explain why Gurbani calls Muslims as Mlecchas/foreigners if their ideology is shared by the Guru Sahibaan.

Because we need to distinguish bani which explains that Qazis and Kateb (Koran/Bible) became dominant in the downward age of Kali Yuga as becoming the actual religious teaching of the Guru's and their undeniably Vedic heritage. Thanks.

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 06:14 AM
The Sanskrit root of is which means primary meaning: ; and secondary meaning
Sorry this got messed up. Perhaps Satay can edit for me.



The Sanskrit root of giraas is "Gir, which means primary meaning: "call,""voice," "speech," "word,"; and secondary meaning "swallowing."
Thanks.

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 06:39 AM
http://tour-rajasthan.com/images/main01.jpg
Rajaputra, the original Kshattriya Singhs/lions.
Please notice the beard.

http://theprg.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/poster_waterstones_cov.jpg?w=211&h=300 http://www.budhadal.com/nihang2.jpg
Akali Nihang Singhs

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Egj-ZBtQwn0/0.jpg
Rajputs and Maharaja

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IQhEsPkzGCk/0.jpg
Rajput warriors


Hair, like the Sarbloh metal chakrs, kirpans, tulwars, khandas, teers, and karas...holds Durga's shakti!


ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥
Sarab kaal hai pitaa apaaraa|| Deb(i) Kaalikaa maat hamaaraa||
Sarbloh Kaal (Bhairaav) is my Father and Destroyer of all, Devi Kalika is my mother.
~Shri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 174

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 07:12 AM
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/9613/shivabeardzz6.jpg
Shiva/Mahesh/Rudra/Shankara

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs018.snc4/34255_106130256104265_100001218740679_43697_419041_n.jpg
Adh Chand worn by Nihang Sikh: Khanda/sword (linga) united with Chandi's moon. Please notice the farla, material coming off the top of the Singh's dumalla represents the Ganges coming from the top of Lord Shiva. Sikhs are Shiv swaroop. (Certainly not Muslim appearance.)

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs416.snc4/47892_121010731282884_100001218740679_136441_1377764_n.jpg
Sadhu


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs117.snc4/36202_106129952770962_100001218740679_43693_8204847_n.jpg
Solar (suryavanshi) race from Lord Rama, dynasty of Rajputana Kshattriya Dharm. Note trishula at agni chakr representing triveni of 3 sacred nadis (ire, pinagala and shushmana) which meet at the confluence of the three (agni chakr) and is shown by such placement of the Adh Chand worn by Nihang Sikhs.


ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.
~SGGS Ji ang 21



ਚਉਦਸਿ ਚਉਥੇ ਥਾਵਹਿ ਲਹਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
choudhas chouthhae thhaavehi lehi paavai ||
The Fourteenth Day: One who enters into the fourth state,

ਰਾਜਸ ਤਾਮਸ ਸਤ ਕਾਲ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥
raajas thaamas sath kaal samaavai ||
overcomes time, and the three qualities of raajas, taamas and satva.

ਸਸੀਅਰ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥
saseear kai ghar soor samaavai ||
Then the sun enters into the house of the moon,

ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
jog jugath kee keemath paavai ||
and one knows the value of the techniques of Yoga.
~SGGS Ji ang 840


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs055.ash2/36088_108049289245695_100001218740679_61056_5262346_n.jpg
Goddess Chandi/Durga on Sikh Battle Standard captured by British during Anglo-Sikh wars. Displayed at Lichfield Cathedral (Staffordshire, UK).

rcscwc
26 August 2010, 08:10 AM
You are right on.
Hinduism contains all of it.

Sikhism is essentially based on impersonal Bhakti plus a few other elements that were necessary as per time and tide.
In some ways, it took some features similar to Islam and muslims of the time like keeping beard etc.

There is nothing new in it that the Vedic Hinduism hasn't got.
And who were the Sikhs? The glorious "Panch Peyares"?? They were the Hindus of Punjab!!! Who took up arms against the muslim oppression of the time under the able leadership of Guru Govind Rai (Singh). (Govind = one of the names of Krishna/Hari).

The identity differentiation is outward mostly. Inward, the Sikhs and the Hindus are pretty much sons of the same mother.
And if we understand Nanak, inward spiritualistic understanding is important than outward image.

The "Ek Omkar" is the same OM of the Vedas.
The "Akal Purukh" is "aakal purush": the Mahakaal.

And of course jo bole so nihal - Sat- Sri - Akal !
Akal - that is beyond time - that is Mahakaal.
Sadashiv - beyond time and space - eternal.
So who - so ever glorifies the the great eternal God is blessed.
Namaskar! Satsriakal.

Yogkriya

Beard from islam? Don't you know Rajputs have beards, sadhus have them?

Why did Sikhs not copy muslims whole hog on this count, like shaving the upper lip? Turban has been worn all over India, in scores of styles.

What else did they copy? Marriage rituals, funeral rites. Do they or can they eat halal meat? NO.

What did Guru Goving Singh mean when he said that do not trust a muslim even if he swears by putting his hand in boiling oil?

Sikhs believe in formless Akal Purush, described as Par Nrahma in Upanishads, but nowhere so in kuran.

darshansingh
26 August 2010, 02:34 PM
This forum concept is not a good way to discuss things, because there are always people who don't let the discussion further. I can't conclude whether its their motive or their inability.

Believer, I do want to discuss things with you. Though, we disagree on a lot, I see a way forward. Suggest a way so that Harjas, Satay and some others don't jump in and steer the whole thing away. As always, I will provide reference from guru granth sahib, not what a farmer on a tractor in my village says; or some pictures somebody has drawn; or some text some noname has written.

satay
27 August 2010, 01:25 PM
namaste,


Suggest a way so that Harjas, Satay and some others don't jump in and steer the whole thing away.

If you internet sikhs don't know your history, have never been in punjab, are interperting the granth wrongly, insisting that sikhism dropped out of the blue sky without the backdrop of hindu sastra then we 'will' steer things in the correct way and teach you the correct sikh history. If you insist on staying in the dark about the beautiful sikh history then we can only feel sorry for you and advice you to go to other sites that will allow you to stay in the dark.

Thanks,

Shanti
27 August 2010, 04:04 PM
I'd like to thank Harjas Kaur and Satay for continuing to educate us about the true roots of Sikhism and especially to Harjas Kaur for backing up the truth with so many various resources and actual FACTS. This is certainly better than just saying that my way is the right way and not feeling the need to expound on it.

Harjas Kaur, I have read many of your posts and have tried to find your back posts as well on this topic. You have really helped understand the Sikhism that my family practices. My mom was Sikh, and religion was not an issue when she married my Hindu father. Same with my Sikh grandfather that married my Hindu Brahman grandmother. There have always been pictures of Hindu deities at the family alters of all my Sikh relatives. I was never taught that they were completely separate religions. I didn't know that much about Sikhism though and when I got older I tried to do my own research on it and the descriptions did not match how my family prayed.

What you say here has finally made sense of the Sikhism in my family. Are there any resources you could recommend to me for further reading? (My mom has passed away and I'm not very close to my relatives on her side so asking them won't work)

Thanks!
S

satay
27 August 2010, 06:29 PM
namaste Shanti,


I'd like to thank Harjas Kaur and Satay for continuing to educate us about the true roots of Sikhism and especially to Harjas Kaur for backing up the truth with so many various resources and actual FACTS. S

If you want to learn the true sikhi go to punjab or meet someone who practices sikhi. I hope you don't meet people who say 'Ram' mentioned in the guru granth sahib is not Shri Ram of ayodhya or such nonsense like that!

satay
27 August 2010, 06:37 PM
namaskar,


Begging cyber sangat ji's pardon as I was not able to edit the post and correct the Gurmuki over the tuuk properly and it was left hanging off other paragraph. This was unintentional and I was unable to correct. Perhaps Satay Ji will do so out of respect for the bani and place Gurmukhi script in proper order of the bani. Thank you.
[/size]

You should be able to do it yourself. Thanks,

satay
27 August 2010, 06:43 PM
namaste,


rich. Sikhs claims, mistakely, they are closer to islam than Hinduism!! haha. Yet they cannot even share a meal!!

I don't get this nonsense of the Internet Sikhs who have no punjabi background. Why would the gurus sacrifice their own young children against the terrorism of mullahs! The sikh literature is littered with pictures of muslims burning sikh warrior nihangs and young sikhs alive. One of the gurus lost two of his young children because muslims buried them alive in a wall!!

I shake my head on all this. As a hindu I should not care but as a punjabi it makes me sick!!

If I were a sikh, aligning myself to a mullah would be a great disgrace to sikhi, the gurus and the sacrifices they made!

satay
27 August 2010, 06:52 PM
namaste,


Sikhs are distinct from muslims and hindus; Indian sikhs share a lot of cultural identity with hindus since it started in India.


Reducing sikhi's association of hinduism by calling it mere 'cultural identity' is complete ignorance and a huge disgrace to sikhi and the gurus!

Please do not disgrace sikhi like that!

Believer
27 August 2010, 08:27 PM
Believer, I do want to discuss things with you.

Darshanji, I can see your predicament. When a person's whole existence depends on one set of principles, and those principles are challenged, or proven to be not totally in line with reality; there is tremendous feeling of anger, fear and disappointment. Add to that the feeling of facing the prospect of the mahal that one builds about faith, crumbling before ones eyes. It is devastating, to say the least. I can see the extreme pain you must be going through. And, I am sorry for being part of that.

I started the thread to look for the reasons for our separateness and to try to bridge the gap. I guess I got more than what I bargained for. The old Chinese proverb 'Be careful about what you wish for, as you might get it', is ringing in my ears. I did not want it to end this way. But since the search for history and truth and questions about our faiths have brought us to this point, we must stand up and face it, and try to make something positive out of this whole mess.

As much I disagree with you on some issues, I have the utmost respect for your sincerity towards your line of thinking. There are millions of schools of thought in Hinduism, and it still survives. We just go about our own ways in worshiping 'a deity' without posing a threat to anyone else. To me no good is served by demanding one set of principles for each individual follower of a faith. It might do you good to take a step back, do some soul searching for a few days and then talk to us. In moments of anger, the mind shuts down and all one has are bad thoughts about the perceived adversaries. Remember, we are not adversaries. We have been, are today and will ever be ONE.

Please calm yourself and spend a few days in reflection. I am not going anywhere, and our faiths are not changing either. What will hopefully change will be our interaction with each other and an atmosphere conducive to better dialogue.

Be at peace and enjoy your days. We will talk again soon!

darshansingh
31 August 2010, 12:13 PM
sure!

I feel no crumbling of faith though.

The feeling I am getting is what you would get if somebody tells you
"My var_1 neighbor eats var_2, hence its allowed is var_1"

Admin will delete this comment, if I use some words instead of var_1 and var_2. But I know you would get my point.

rcscwc
07 September 2010, 09:06 AM
namaste Shanti,



If you want to learn the true sikhi go to punjab or meet someone who practices sikhi. I hope you don't meet people who say 'Ram' mentioned in the guru granth sahib is not Shri Ram of ayodhya or such nonsense like that!
Ram not mentioned in granth?? Denials do not work.

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 12:15 AM
Description of the Supreme Lord God in Sikhism
______________________________________


ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.
~Shri Guru Granth Sahib p. 1082

Who has taken incarnation as Shri Ramachandra Ji? As Shri Krishna Ji? As the Das avtaray? It's all accident to be mentioned so clearly in Guru Granth Sahib Ji? No. it's obvious what the truth is.