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kallol
31 July 2010, 02:23 AM
1. How do we define the Avatar from the saying of Krishna - Whenever there is a depletion of Dharma and Adharma rules, I will come in those eras to establish the dharma again and again ?

2. How do we connect it to the cycles of birth, karma and the mind (as the super power needs a body to work through this change)

Let us discuss this. I have some thoughts on this but again from scientific point of view which I will provide later.

Love and best wishes

kallol
12 August 2010, 03:28 AM
yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham



paritranaya sadhunam

vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharma-samsthapanarthaya

sambhavami yuge yuge

This was said by Krishna. How do we explain this ?

My understanding :

As the physical world (both manifested and un-manifested) follow certain rules for any of the actions (some discovered and many undiscovered), similarly the combination of the physical (aparaprakriti) and paraprakriti follows certain rules.

Which can be

1. constant pull towards permanent form (both un-manifested) which results in life and death (manifestation & un-manifestation) at all levels. It is like pendulum.
2. Maintaining the balance both in the manifested and in the un-manifested for maintaining equilibrium.
3. Evolution rules : space, stars(fire), earth, water, air, plant, herbivorous animal, carnivorous animal, human (or similar), .......;
4. etc.

As we understand that there is no direct intervention of God and every action or creation is out of our past karma. The karma phals are as per the rules set and the results are what we experience at present.
Now then how do we define the phenomenon of Avatar.

The rule of Balance comes here. If negativity becomes majority that has to be balanced by a few positive souls, then a few or one of them would need to have a huge positivity to balance.

I will take two similes we find in the physical world.

1. There is ionization of atoms happening now and then. These ions get neutralized over a period of time through acquiring suitable compatible partner. It can be another ion or electrons, etc. This phenomenon happens in the atmosphere continuously but without major notice.

Now what happen if there is a sudden cloud of ions gathering. This creates a huge imbalance in the system and depending on the threshold limit, this does not wait to be neutralized but generates a huge lightning to break the barrior and bring in balance in the system. The power of such phenomenon and the power of normal neutralization is totally different.
2. Second example can be the tsunami. In tsunami, the sea recedes and the level of the sea comes down apparently. The general level of the vast sea comes down. Only to generate a 10 story height tsunami. So when after an earthquake, we see the sea level going down and the sea line receding much beyond its normal ones, then we know that there is a tsunami coming. And thereafter the balance comes back and the sea level is back to normal.

The same principle is valid for the case of Avatars also.

The mind reflects the turbulence of the cosmos which in turn drives the energy. The minds may have body or may not. These minds are all around, which we call souls. Souls are nothing but minds in the environment of consciousness. These minds which fill the space are the points of energy drivers. In cases of minds without body the state of the mind or the excited potential remain constant whereas the minds with bodies have the capability to alter the state of the mind. Humans, being at the top of the evolution ladder, have the biggest capable minds and the biggest capability to alter the status.

So the potential changes brought by the minds with bodies, particularly humans, may alter the overall state of the excited state. Now this state also has a threshold limit beyond which it brings in a corrective or balancing action. This corrective or balancing action is carried out by a suitable mind of that order which takes in a body, which is suitable for the purpose, to deliver the balance. This phenomenon (body with this super mind) is called Avatar. Avatars are generally the Change Agents who comes to change certain deficiencies or deviations. This can be at society level, state level, country level or mankind level or total ecosystem level. They come with a mind, which can make best use of the body and also maximize the consciousness content. Minds clogged with egos, anger, desire, envy, etc have limited capabilities of holding consciousness.

The phenomenon of Avatar is rule based and automated. Based on the need for corrective action it happens to bring in the balance. And this is bound to happen again and again as humans are blind to what they are doing and mostly deviate from the expected path.

Love and best wishes

Adhvagat
08 September 2010, 05:59 PM
Kallol, sometimes my feeling-oriented mind craves for logic (in order to balance itself) and your explanation provided me this.

Thank you for sharing your view!

Onkara
23 September 2010, 03:50 AM
Namaste Kallol
You share some deep thought here.:)

My personal opinion is that an Avatar cannot be limited to a body with a super mind. Nonetheless an Avatar appears to be a body with a mind and we take it to be similar to ourselves. As the mind is a part of the parkriti itself and is influenced by gunas, it risks falling "victim" to desire, anger, lust etc. This would imply that the Avatar acts under the influence of gunas, as per the teaching of Sri Kirshna:

There is no entity on earth,
Or in heaven among the gods,
Found devoid of these three gunas,
Born of Prakriti, Arjuna. (Bhagavad Gita 18.40)


(or see post 15 on this page (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6379&page=2) for further thought)

Clearly an Avatar must be more than a body-mind which is influenced by the gunas, if it is to serve a good end and not contradict verse 18.40.

So to undertand this we must be clear that mind does not contain consciousness. Mind is a reflection of the consciousness from which mind has arisen. We know consciousness through the reflection of the mind, that explains the analogy of the mirror. This mind can be clogged with egos, anger, desire, etc, but it does not limit holding of consciousness, as consciousness is always present regardless of mind. The recognition of our consciousness is concealed by these negative phenomena, this is ignorance which conceals the bliss (ananda). We could say, it is mind which moves or is agitated and not consciousness itself.

So how does an Avatar differ to humans? It does not differ to our eyes (or to our minds), it appears to act under the same forces of prarkiti as if it had a mind and desires like us, however it knows itself always as pure consciousness and as such it can maintain the focus and purpose it sets itself. It serves a purpose and it knows that purpose before its outset and it interacts with us (with prarkriti). It takes form as an Avatar to influence prakriti, as it is prakriti which acts on prakriti. This is why the Lord takes form and does not direct from His loka. It is for our grace and the continued interest of His lila that implies an Avatar will come.

kallol
23 September 2010, 04:29 AM
Thanks Snip. Good that we have restarted this thought provoking topic.

Some points :

1. You are right in the sense that this body mind complex cannot be absolved of the gunas. However inspite of that we strive to achieve moksha by aligning ourselves to the consciousness where the body mind complex becomes a mere tool for earthly functioning. For us we are striving but for Avatar he starts with that.

All of us strive to become Chess champion Anand or Sachin or Pele / Maradona but Avatar comes with that capability.

I will elaborate a bit more on this in next point.

2. Mind is not a reflection of consciousness but the reflector. This reflector can have the different Gunas which are the dirts and colours. This diminishes the reflected consciousness intensity and thus the ability to utilise the body in the best efficient way. The body remaining the same, utilisation differs based on the charateristics of the reflected conciousness. That is why not all becomes Anand or Mozart or Ramakrishna or Sachin or Pele.

3. Due to the purest of minds without the Gunas (almost) the Avatars become extremely powerful through their efficient usage of the tool / instrument called the body-mind complex. Even in that there are levels. Krishna is supposed to be the highest level (than Rama, than Parashurama, etc).

4. Again by Advaita, there is no seperate God who will decide this phenomenon. God is the superset of all (prakriti and purusha). It is us, who decide the phenomenon of Avatar through our karma. How is this phenomenon explained ? This is what I tried.

5. By itself purusha cannot act and by itself mind cannot act. Even a combination of purusha and mind cannot act by themselve. They need a body to act and that body for avatar is decided based on what is creating the problem and what is the solution.

6. It is the rule of balance which is again derived from permanence to temporary to permanence.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
23 September 2010, 04:43 AM
2. Mind is not a reflection of consciousness but the reflector. This reflector can have the different Gunas which are the dirts and colours. This diminishes the reflected consciousness intensity and thus the ability to utilise the body in the best efficient way. The body remaining the same, utilisation differs based on the charateristics of the reflected conciousness. That is why not all becomes Anand or Mozart or Ramakrishna or Sachin or Pele.


4. Again by Advaita, there is no seperate God who will decide this phenomenon. God is the superset of all (prakriti and purusha). It is us, who decide the phenomenon of Avatar through our karma. How is this phenomenon explained ? This is what I tried.

6. It is the rule of balance which is again derived from permanence to temporary to permanence.

Love and best wishes

Hello Kallol :)
Would you mind elaborating on the ideas I have quoted in bold above, please? I have tried to capture my questions below, hopefully this can be linked back to the original topic following further clarification :)

1) What are the characteristics of reflected consciousness which make the Mozart or Ramakrishna different or "better" to those who remain unknown to the majority?

2) Who is deciding? Also how is karma influencing our decisions or understanding of Avatars?

3) I am afraid I am not familiar with the context in which this rule of balance from permanence to temporary to permanence is observed.

Thanks!

kallol
23 September 2010, 06:15 AM
1. utilisation differs based on the charateristics of the reflected conciousness. That is why not all becomes Anand or Mozart or Ramakrishna or Sachin or Pele.

The intellect, the sense organs and the action organs are like different parts of a highly complicated robotic system. They need to be powered to enable them to function. The fuctioning capability depends on the level of power and the inherited gunas (etc.) from the previous birth. The senses and action organs are lower in the order and are dumb, used only as inputs and output.

However in case of intellect it is different. The power (reflected consciousness intensity) in combination with the inherited karmaphals decide on the level & direction of the functioning & maturing of the intellect. This decides whether one will become Ramakrishna or Mozart or Pele, or etc.

A rudimentary example. Say the consciousness light is reflected through the ego, envy, desire, anger, etc glasses which is the charateristics of the mirror (mind). Each of those glass is differently coloured and dirty. Now these reflected light from these charteristics influence the intellect is different way and thus it develops in different way. In case all are almost clear the development is at the best level.

2. It is us, who decide the phenomenon of Avatar through our karma. How is this phenomenon explained ? This is what I tried.

3. It is the rule of balance which is again derived from permanence to temporary to permanence


See the connection : whenever there is a degradation of Dharma I come. This is to maintain the balance.
Again if the whole subject is seen, it has been mentioned that the permanent state of God is the unmanifested prakriti and purusha. the manifestation is very temporary and does not figure in the eternal timeframe.

The constant movement of the prakriti due to the vibration out of the mind creates the unending waves of the prakriti (energy) which beyond a threshold becomes the manifested universe. But again as the waves, though they move up, come down to the permanent state, so is the state of prakriti. Coming back to the equillibrium state - This phenomenon manifests at all level of the evolution. Right from atomic level, to human level to society level to country level. Equllibrium of the minds.

Once there is a cause to upset this equillibrium, there is an effect which tries to nullify the cause. Now as the society degrades and adharma rules, the equillibrium of the combined mental state degrades and there is a local (a relative term) sharp unbalance created. This unbalance gives rise to a balancing act.

We need to always keep in mind that the permanent state is the TRUTH and a single level, the net summation of all minds should conform to that. Now if more minds are negative then a few minds or a single mind has to be hugely positive.

That is why I have given the example of lightening and tsunami.

The whole system is automated and is self intelligent based on certain basic rules.

Whenever we think of God doing something, he becomes karta (which is against advaita) and it becomes dvaita (and not advaita).

Do not know whether this expalination was enough.

We can delve more with more probing questions.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
23 September 2010, 06:56 AM
The fuctioning capability depends on the level of power and the inherited gunas (etc.) from the previous birth. The senses and action organs are lower in the order and are dumb, used only as inputs and output.

However in case of intellect it is different. The power (reflected consciousness intensity) in combination with the inherited karmaphals decide on the level & direction of the functioning & maturing of the intellect. This decides whether one will become Ramakrishna or Mozart or Pele, or etc.


NamastÚ Kollol,
your perspective is different and intriguing to what I am used to, so thanks for helping me keep up :)

The above prompts me to ask theoretically, how does one increase the intensity of light (consciousness)?

My opinion is that it is through yoga (bhakti/karma/j˝ana etc) and through the Lord's grace?

Besides the karmaphalas, which our out of our control, would you say there is something more to increasing the intensity which makes one a Mozart or Ramakrishna? Are we destined to be just as we are?




See the connection : whenever there is a degradation of Dharma I come. This is to maintain the balance.


Whenever we think of God doing something, he becomes karta (which is against advaita) and it becomes dvaita (and not advaita).

Do not know whether this expalination was enough.

We can delve more with more probing questions.

Love and best wishes

This is more clear, I missed the quote that the Lord would maintain balance in bold above.

For me, the action is within the Lord and the Lord remains as the inactive onlooker. However because everything is the Lord i.e. non-dual Brahman, even the action occurs within and to the Lord's prakriti.

In other words God acts but His action is only apparent and within prakriti and so has no real effect; it is just a show on a stage. This show is the Dvaita view of jIva and Lord, but it is only a perspective because if we retire to the perspective of Advaita, there I can see both the play (Dvaita) and the whole, which appears to change yet has a changeless foundation.

My point is that the Avatar serves to balance or influence prakriti only. Nothing beyond prakriti is influenced, all cause and effect is in the real of prakriti only and that which lies out side of it goes untouched.

I feel our perspectives are very close, perhaps we would split hairs to disagree, but I remain most interested in your perception of this so please feel free to direct my thoughts with yours :)

kallol
23 September 2010, 08:16 AM
1. The above prompts me to ask theoretically, how does one increase the intensity of light (consciousness)?

My opinion is that it is through yoga (bhakti/karma/jñana etc) and through the Lord's grace?

Besides the karmaphalas, which our out of our control, would you say there is something more to increasing the intensity which makes one a Mozart or Ramakrishna? Are we destined to be just as we are?

It is through right knowledge (SD) we clean the mirror or mind. It is that which increases the illumination or power to the intellect.

You are abosolutely right in the sense that we have some control over karma and not much over karmaphal. At the best we are a party to that.

The different combinations for different skills depend on what faculty they have pursued in the previous births. Much of knowledge behind this is beyond our memory and analysing capability.
Say this birth you are constantly working with the knowledge of spirituality and you focus on that part. May be by next birth - the starting point (at very young age) would be self realisation or enlightenment. So you have a jumpstart and will not need much guidance to understand and assimilate the TRUTH.

Again the thinking and analysing faculty might have been a strong area for Anand (we need to remember these skills are connected also to the base qualities of ego, anger, envy, desire, rajas, tamas, stavik, etc)

But it is sure that We Choose What We Are.

2. In other words God acts but His action is only apparent and within prakriti and so has no real effect; it is just a show on a stage. This show is the Dvaita view of jIva and Lord, but it is only a perspective because if we retire to the perspective of Advaita, there I can see both the play (Dvaita) and the whole, which appears to change yet has a changeless foundation.

There are several POV depending on where one is comfortable. It can be systems level (advaita) or levels below.

However my experience has been that POV of systems provides enough clarity of the different phenomenons and does not need to define it from micro level. Mixing up the phenomenons at micro and macro levels might create variations in the clarity.

Take the mind at the level of God (virtual) and observe the phenomenons. Everything will fall in place. It will be difficult to explain each an everything from micro level but will be easier done at macro level.

I agree with you Snip that your understanding has lots of common points with mine. That is why I love to discuss with you.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
23 September 2010, 08:42 AM
Thank you Kallol
:) :o

Permit me to add a new angle, for the pleasure of exploring this topic, and address it to the phenomenon of Avatars.

I am of the opinion that everything is being determined, be it as small as a baby's yawn or even which people govern and influence our daily social and economic life.

I can make this personal by saying that even my position in life is the result of many factors: gunas, karma and interaction with the world e.g. other's who act under gunas or karma etc.

Note I say "being determined" because it is fluid, like a stream. It changes continually and is open to change. When I need to act, I find I act, and likewise when I witness periods of little change or inactivity in my life, these too I know have come about naturally and I need not be concerned. There is only the impression of "free will" due to time, this is my observation.

So the Avatar is needed to influence us at that level. The Avatar is required in order to trigger the movement which ultimately brings us into balance. This is the "why". However, I said above that everything is already determined, so is the role of Avatar is just another effect arising from the cause of disbalance?

It might seem so unless we subscribe to "free will" and then I must ask, who's free will? This question is the crux of the problem.

The "how" is answered above, it is through the Lord's own creation i.e. prakriti and the universe of atoms, elements, molecules etc which come together to make name and form.

kallol
23 September 2010, 12:57 PM
Dear Snip,

You remind me of an article I had written on this aspect long long ago.

One is on a boat in a fast moving stream of the life. The direction and the speed of the stream is the inherited condition of the mind. As long as we are only listening to the mind and acting, we are child of destiny. Where the destiny takes us, we go.

But this hardly happens in human birth.

Fortunately the person is also given a paddle to steer. But the size of that paddle depends upon the reflected consciousness intensity and the inherited characteristics. The more clogged is the mind, the smaller is the paddle and vice versa.

This paddle is the ablity of the intellect to rule over the mind or take decision beyond the mind. This we do. may be less when we are young and more when we mature. Then again it varies hugely from person to person. There are cases by which one guides himself to the bank of bliss and there are cases where one guides himself to the bank of dungeon. It all depends how we use the intellect paddle.

That is why you will find that the initial journey on the spiritual path is tedious, confusing, directionless and sometimes chaotic. This constitutes of most of the people. But as they get into the knowledge part of the spiritual journey, the paddle becomes bigger and the ability to steer becomes better and the goal is achieved faster.

So the destiny is in our hand. That we have given the ability to choose is the proof that we decide our destiny.

Again as a society if the boat is having many humans the fate is decided by which side the numbers are more. If the dungeon side is more then there will be a need for a bigger paddle on the bliss side to balance and guide to bliss side. This is when avatar come into the sansar.

The theory of creation is too big and complex to contain in a single writeup. But we can do some justice to it through connected writeups.

Let us continue. :) :hug:

Love and best wishes

Onkara
24 September 2010, 12:37 PM
Dear Snip,

You remind me of an article I had written on this aspect long long ago.

One is on a boat in a fast moving stream of the life. The direction and the speed of the stream is the inherited condition of the mind. As long as we are only listening to the mind and acting, we are child of destiny. Where the destiny takes us, we go.

But this hardly happens in human birth.

Fortunately the person is also given a paddle to steer. But the size of that paddle depends upon the reflected consciousness intensity and the inherited characteristics. The more clogged is the mind, the smaller is the paddle and vice versa.

This paddle is the ablity of the intellect to rule over the mind or take decision beyond the mind. This we do. may be less when we are young and more when we mature. Then again it varies hugely from person to person. There are cases by which one guides himself to the bank of bliss and there are cases where one guides himself to the bank of dungeon. It all depends how we use the intellect paddle.

That is why you will find that the initial journey on the spiritual path is tedious, confusing, directionless and sometimes chaotic. This constitutes of most of the people. But as they get into the knowledge part of the spiritual journey, the paddle becomes bigger and the ability to steer becomes better and the goal is achieved faster.

So the destiny is in our hand. That we have given the ability to choose is the proof that we decide our destiny.

Again as a society if the boat is having many humans the fate is decided by which side the numbers are more. If the dungeon side is more then there will be a need for a bigger paddle on the bliss side to balance and guide to bliss side. This is when avatar come into the sansar.

The theory of creation is too big and complex to contain in a single writeup. But we can do some justice to it through connected writeups.

Let us continue. :) :hug:

Love and best wishes
Dear Kallol
Beautiful metaphoric post, like poetry lined with wisdom! :)

I agree it seems to be an inherent condition of the mind. However, I do not recognise any boatman who handles the paddle of the intellect. I sit back, as if on an Italian gondola and warm my face in the bliss of divine light.

Intellect is certainly steering away from the weeds which would muddy the mind, I can relate with your post. Afterall, what else could it be that steers the mind through the ancient scriptures, if not the intellect. But I cannot tell you when this intellect started, nor is there memory of anyone ever controlling it. Rather it is attracted to the good things in life (scriptures, learning, the wisdom of friends and teachers). It is almost as if it is propelled by a satvic undercurrent, rather than controlled through calculated decisions.

The intellect does discard the temporary pleasures once it knows of something of more valuable. As you say, these short lived joys were more appealing in youth. So what has changed?

Has the mind become less cluttered and clean and allowed the intellect to be steered more efficiently. Is it consciousness which is doing that steering? Is it consciousness itself which appears to decide on our destiny?

kallol
24 September 2010, 11:10 PM
Dear Kallol
Beautiful metaphoric post, like poetry lined with wisdom! :)

I agree it seems to be an inherent condition of the mind. However, I do not recognise any boatman who handles the paddle of the intellect. I sit back, as if on an Italian gondola and warm my face in the bliss of divine light.

Intellect is certainly steering away from the weeds which would muddy the mind, I can relate with your post. Afterall, what else could it be that steers the mind through the ancient scriptures, if not the intellect. But I cannot tell you when this intellect started, nor is there memory of anyone ever controlling it. Rather it is attracted to the good things in life (scriptures, learning, the wisdom of friends and teachers). It is almost as if it is propelled by a satvic undercurrent, rather than controlled through calculated decisions.

The intellect does discard the temporary pleasures once it knows of something of more valuable. As you say, these short lived joys were more appealing in youth. So what has changed?

Has the mind become less cluttered and clean and allowed the intellect to be steered more efficiently. Is it consciousness which is doing that steering? Is it consciousness itself which appears to decide on our destiny?

Again thanks Snip for your beautiful words.


1. The boatman is the human and not anyone. The consciousness in this case is the ground on which the sansar stream runs. It is the ground on which the wheel of life runs. Without the ground there is no stream or no wheel.

The consciousness is eternally constantly and all pervading. The prakriti is in cycles or waves. This it does in the presence of consciousness. But consciousness does not play a role in what prakriti does. Like the signal for the cell phones is available in the space. The cellphone works because of that. There is a small device in cellphone which recognises the signal and makes the cellphone alive. What converstaion takes place - the signal is no way connected. Assume we have signal with power also (which might be possible one day). Now that can be an analogy of the consciousness.

The bliss of consciousness is reflected more on the people who remaining in the sansar is also a sanyasi (at mental level) and gyani (of TRUTH). They do all karmas as duties without getting attached. Keeps the mind and intellect at a level which is always attached to the TRUTH. This, at the highest level, is the Avatara. But these people are the special people for special purposes, which are required sparingly.

2. The mind is the I/O port for the body. the external stimulii comes through the mind and is processed & kept as experience in the intellect. Again the processed output is also through the mind to activate the action points.

This phenomenon indicates that the intellect's power of processing & experience holding is subject to the condition of mind. This mind, being the entity which moves from body to body, is also the carrier for the karmaphals. This karmaphals are stored in terms of basic entities which dictates the charateristics of a person towards the sansar. Initially the kid starts with these and the mind plays a bigger role for the actions. The intellect is blank at the birth. This part is the initial learning part where we mostly have Sense, React and little Learn.

Then gradually the intellect picks up with the experience gained out of the filtered signals coming from the external senses through the mind. As it matures (this is what we call as self learning in robotics term), it starts to use the experience to Plan. So slowly and surely the human moves towards Learn, Sense, Plan & React. Because we have the Plan capability (which is not there to this extent in any others), we also are stakeholders in defining our destiny. Better Learning we have, the Better the Intellect guides the mind.

3. As mentioned Consciousness (like signal or light) only enables the prakriti to perform but it does not take part in the performance or is not responsible for the performance.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
25 September 2010, 04:53 AM
Again thanks Snip for your beautiful words.


1. The boatman is the human and not anyone. The consciousness in this case is the ground on which the sansar stream runs. It is the ground on which the wheel of life runs. Without the ground there is no stream or no wheel.


Namaste Kallol
This is interesting. I understand the bold above to mean that the humanoid is the boatman. Rather than an individual, it is the nature of being human that guides/controls the paddles. In other words the phenomenon of being a human is that which makes decisions because a human has mind,intellect,memory,ego etc. Is that what you mean?

I ask as I associated being human as being a part of prakriti. In doing so one can go beyond the idea that "I am the body-mind-intellect" and see that it is nature which operates, not consciousness. Consciousness is my true Self, and it is abiding in consciousness that is the summum bonum.

Best wishes

kallol
25 September 2010, 05:35 AM
Dear Snip,

The "I" had been always different because of our clogged mind - when reflects directly the "I" is the mind. Before that "I' is the body. After there is lots of declogging then "I" is the intellect. But the people who are in the Gyana Yoga phase knows that "I" is the reflected consciousness.

About the evolution I will cut and paste something which I penned quite sometime back on the evolution and postion of human and thereafter.

"
Just like any fetus being nurtured and groomed in a protective enclosure inside a liquid medium, similarly the first life-forms were nurtured and grown in water bodies. Again just like the earlier phase, each step in this phase of evolution is the support structure for the next step of the evolution. So we find the plant kingdom evolving first and then later on the animal kingdom starts. Any step is a bridge between the earlier one and the next one - cause and effect rule.
For independent chartering of the life path there are four major factors, which we come across.

1. Learn
2. Sense (through sensory organs / mind)
3. Plan
4. React / Proact

In the plant evolution, the proactive quotient, intelligence and mind are in the minimal state. It is the two points : Sense and React, which are mostly present (in the case of the earlier phase it was mostly forced reactions). So mostly they do whatever they are meant for. They hardly change the way they are. But they grow, they adjust the strength of their trunk, branches according to need. Now what did they use for growth, sustain, and further evolution ? They used the earth, the water, the oxygen and the light. It is a fascinating journey of evolution. They bear leaves, fruits and strong branches.

This creates the ideal support system for the next phase of evolution, the herbivorous animals. This is again a major change in the evolution which added the learning factor and marginal planning factor. Though the transition came through slowly but as it evolved, the main food for them was these plants. As in the earlier cases, it also started from monocells. Here on the evolution became faster. Different environment and DNA strains created different herbivorous creatures. It evolved to become giant creatures. It can move, it can think, it can decide and it can act accordingly. But the evolution was still not over. Though structurally these creatures had huge sizes, but the ability to think, analyze and plan had lot to be developed. These creatures became the support structure for the next step, carnivorous creatures.

Again the creation started from the smallest ones and later evolved into the bigger ones. Ferocious and hungry giants. But again they were limited by their brain and mind power. Here also the planning part is limited. Till now we have sizes in physical attributes but limitations in the mental attributes. Even though we have millions of years of evolution, none of these creatures could evolve the planning part to the extent of human.

This is the next step to the evolution. . Somewhere, there was a change in the DNA, when we have a branch in the evolution which consisted of omnivorous creatures. In these omnivorous creatures, we find the human species to be the leader. This human species is almost unique. This has combination of many attributes which enable them to change the way of evolvement much much faster than in history. Just in above a few million years, this species has moved out of the caves to reach out to the sky. Never ever the earth has witnessed this rapid evolution. Of what ? No not the physical attributes but mostly in the mental attributes. Now we have all the four parameters learning, sensing, planning and reacting working in tandem. If the sensing is mostly external oriented, the actions are mostly reactive, but if the sensing is internally oriented the actions are mostly proactive.

This attribute led to the scientific studies and also towards the search for the roots of all these causes. The activities can be divided mostly in two streams, material and mental. The science has also propagated in material field and mental field. .......
What is the next step ? Or whether there will be further radical evolution of another species ? We do not have any answer to these now. "

Love and best wishes

Onkara
25 September 2010, 11:49 AM
Dear Snip,

The "I" had been always different but our clogged mind - when reflects directly the "I" is the mind. Before that "I' is the body. After there is lots of declogging then "I" is the intellect. But the people who are in the Gyana Yoga phase knows that "I" is the reflected consciousness.

About the evolution I will cut and paste something which I penned quite sometime back on the evolution and postion of human and thereafter.

Thank you, dear Kallol, for the answer :)
I think this is spot on explanation of how the mind is cleared. I am going to "stick my neck out" with the topic of evolution and say that I do not personally see a need for it to help my mind/intellect to arive at knowing consciousness. I do not imply that it is not useful or that things don't change or evolve, however from the perspective of consciousness, all change is occuring at the level of shakti or prakriti and it is inconsequencial when that is known. Please do not feel any harshness in this, but I hope it helps to understand why I feel that an Avatar is only apparently a body-mind but is much more beyond prakriti. :)