Reincarnation and I-ness

[Ao]

Personally, I feel that viewing reincarnation as the linear journey of one specific soul through various forms has the danger of promoting I-ness, or ego. For example, one could point to their soul as being essentially 'them', their 'true, eternal self', which to my thinking would distract from the higher truth of the unity of all in brahman. If we are seeking the ultimate Self, at the transcendental level where all merges into nirguna brahman, then how shall we view reincarnation? As a series of causes and effects which are not strictly linear a la some Buddhist interpretations? As the journey of one tiny piece of brahman, like a thought that passes through multiple aspects? Or should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life?

Any thoughts?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Andrew:

I view this as one step up from identification with this body this life, the sense organs, or the mind as it is now. Viewing yourself as a soul going through various lifetimes of human existence is certainly a higher or 'closer to reality' POV. But you are correct that we are in essence part of a higher reality, the Self .... God, and all that that entails. The focus on the ego that you mentioned is another good reason for not worrying or thinking much about past or future lives, other than to be practicing dharma now, and understanding it is karma that gets you many of your experiences today.

There is also some debate on the idea of 'various forms' you mentioned coupled with reincarnation. One view is that we travel upward through these forms, and the other view is that animals and plants have an entirely different type of soul which is evolving on its own. This viewpoint doesn't allow for reincarnating as an insect.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

Personally, I feel that viewing reincarnation as the linear journey of one specific soul through various forms has the danger of promoting I-ness, or ego. For example, one could point to their soul as being essentially 'them', their 'true, eternal self', which to my thinking would distract from the higher truth of the unity of all in brahman. If we are seeking the ultimate Self, at the transcendental level where all merges into nirguna brahman, then how shall we view reincarnation? As a series of causes and effects which are not strictly linear a la some Buddhist interpretations? As the journey of one tiny piece of brahman, like a thought that passes through multiple aspects? Or should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life?

Any thoughts?

Namaste andrew

I think you are correct yet it is said by at least one school of Vedanta that just as camphor vanishes on burning or as a stick used to light up the funeral pyre burns itself -- the soul, which is mentally, experientially and existentially held as true, must be used like the funeral pyre stick.

The main point is that it is useless to theoretically proclaim non-existence of a discrete soul that apparently goes through its own pain and joy.

Buddhists oppose this for the reason cited by you.

Om Namah Shivaya

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Personally, I feel that viewing reincarnation as the linear journey of one specific soul through various forms has the danger of promoting I-ness, or ego. For example, one could point to their soul as being essentially 'them', their 'true, eternal self', which to my thinking would distract from the higher truth of the unity of all in brahman. If we are seeking the ultimate Self, at the transcendental level where all merges into nirguna brahman, then how shall we view reincarnation? As a series of causes and effects which are not strictly linear a la some Buddhist interpretations? As the journey of one tiny piece of brahman, like a thought that passes through multiple aspects? Or should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life?

Any thoughts?

Very good thread starter andrewoberg!

It is very confusing to state advaitha and reincarnation parallely.

We cannot perceive the reality with our sense organs, manah and buddhih alone.

God and his children(us) cannot be defined by simple logic nor by mere imagination, it requires much much much much much much.... more than that. There is no separation between us all. Idividuality is an illusion from advaitha. This may seem wrong if perceived wrongly. Even though the nucleus and electron are the same string on the string level, they on a higher level, i.e the level of fundamental and elementary particles, they are 2 different objects. Similarly, we are reborn again and again, yet we are all the same person, we are all that TatPurusha. This may sound impossible or stupid, but this is a part of the truth.
If that doesn't glow the bulb, I have another explanation. A single AUM behaves like many many many infinite sounds, but at the same time it remains to be aum. Out of all these sounds, each and every sound is unique and no two sounds are alike, these sounds pass through the fabric of space time and cause their own effects on the surrounding matter, producing well, music or existence. Here, the sounds are we, the AUM is god and the surrounding matter is maya. If this explanation wasn't enough, I'm ready to think of another. This is how I understand this subject.

Beautiful thread! :grouphug: = :)
:D

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~

namasté A-O,



Or should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life? Any thoughts?

You are referring to anāgata - a future state or condition that has not yet arrived; yet this future state is here now in seed form , yes? By our actions, desires, intentions. It gives us a hint to one's future. We also can get a hint via specific jyotish charts pending one's time of death.

Yet my question to those here on HDF: A future state is awaiting us. Many say we are here to learn ( I do not disagree with this), yet what of the future state? If I cannot recall the past conditions of learning - how am I to progress if I cannot recall my past lessons?

I prefer to become the anāgāmin - the one that does not return.

praṇām

[saidevo]

namaste Andrewoberg and others.

Advaita, I-ness and Reincarnation

If reincarnation fosters and fortifies I-ness, then how does Advaita view it? In other words, if the inherent Self is Brahman for all the jIvAtmas, who or what is it that reincarnates and how does it fit within the Advaidic scheme of One Universal Absolute Reality?

Some thoughts I have on this question, which I share here for discussion:

Brahman, as Shiva DakShiNAmUrti, sits beneath the big, broad, banyan tree of this universe, immersed in the peaceful silence of bliss. His original thought or kAma--desire, to know himself better, was his original karma that spawned the universe. Still, the universe is only his thought, in his thought.

As the great universe of matter and energy arose like a huge bubble, the power of his thought populated it with tiny bubbles of multitudinous forms animate and inanimate, infusing them with the silence of his consciousness as their Self at the core. Just as a single vAsana--impression, stored in our mind creates for us--from us--a whole world to experience in dream, the single, great thought of Shiva DakShiNAmUrti, created this universe for his lIlA--sport, founded on the silence and sound of AUM, as the first manifestation of the peace of stillness and activity.

Infused with Shiva's consciousness, the tiny bubbles of life are active in space, their discrete perceptions of I-ness created by the reflection of the underlying consciousness of the Self in the triad of their jIvAtma-buddhi-manas--ego-wisdom-mind. This reflected and mistaken I-ness lets the bubbles play their roles that are scripted by the cause-and-effect law of karma of their own desires and activities.

Although he is only a silent witness to the ego-and-karma-driven life of the bubbles, Shiva DakShiNAmUrti has given them a way to fall back into their real nature of absolute consciousness of the silent and peaceful Self in their deep sleep state. In addition, Shiva has imbued their active life in wakeful and dreamy states of existence, with the silent intervals of turIya, dividing and uniting their very breathing, heartbeats, pulse flows, feelings, emotions and thoughts.

Bubbles that learn to use their wisdom to identify and foster the experience of the turIyac moments of existence, as well as explore the deep sleep state of their existence, mature sooner spiritually, and eventually prick themselves out from within, and merge with the silent bliss of Shiva DakShiNAmUrti.

Other bubbles live their worldly life filled with strife, tossed about by their desires to possess, getting pricked and reincarnated endlessly in the illusion of time, until they find their Self of silence and bliss.

Just as the core of the ocean is unaffected by the foam and froth of its waves on the surface, the Self that is Shiva DakShiNAmUrti is unaffected by the varNa--colors, of the I-ness of the jIvas, or their kleshas--colored thoughts, and carried over vAsanas--impressions. It is only the ego--the triad of jIvAtma-buddhi-manas that reincarnates, the Self is always everywhere.

"... should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life?"

I think we should be practical in the way suggested, so long as we can only identify with the jIvAtma--ego, instead of the Self.

[Ao]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~


Yet my question to those here on HDF: A future state is awaiting us. Many say we are here to learn ( I do not disagree with this), yet what of the future state? If I cannot recall the past conditions of learning - how am I to progress if I cannot recall my past lessons?




This is an excellent point, I think, and one worth spending some time on. Our present and future are conditioned by the past, by the great karmic web of interconnectedness of which we and all are a part. However, we do not, and some say cannot, know from whence our current manisfestation has come. We are all brahman, all is brahman, yet why is the part of brahman that is typing these letters a Caucasian male living in southern Japan?

To me, and these are only my thoughts, it is most beneficial to focus on spiritual progress in the here and now rather than trying to set oneself up for something in the future. Even having the goal of moksha can be a detriment if your focus is on exiting the cycle of birth and death rather than achieving enlightment--a true awareness of ultimate reality and a merging of consciousness with the ulitmate Self. I (for lack of a better term the personal pronoun once again rears its ugly head) want to learn and grow as much as I can during my short stay in this skinny white body, all the while keeping in mind that what my senses perceive around me are merely "puppets in a play of shadows" as the Gita puts it.

[Ao]

Also, Saidevo, many thanks for the great explanation.:D

[saidevo]

namaste Andrewoberg.

For the type of sAdhana--practice, you aim at, perhaps this pratical advice might be of help:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=29149&postcount=64



To me, and these are only my thoughts, it is most beneficial to focus on spiritual progress in the here and now rather than trying to set oneself up for something in the future. Even having the goal of moksha can be a detriment if your focus is on exiting the cycle of birth and death rather than achieving enlightment--a true awareness of ultimate reality and a merging of consciousness with the ulitmate Self. I (for lack of a better term the personal pronoun once again rears its ugly head) want to learn and grow as much as I can during my short stay in this skinny white body, all the while keeping in mind that what my senses perceive around me are merely "puppets in a play of shadows" as the Gita puts it.

[Ao]

namaste Andrewoberg.

For the type of sAdhana--practice, you aim at, perhaps this pratical advice might be of help:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=29149&postcount=64


Practical and useful advice, many thanks for sharing it with me. This kind of thing is exactly what I need for my practice alone here.

[brahman]

Ao: Personally, I feel that viewing reincarnation as the linear journey of one specific soul through various forms has the danger of promoting I-ness, or ego. For example, one could point to their soul as being essentially 'them', their 'true, eternal self', which to my thinking would distract from the higher truth of the unity of all in brahman. If we are seeking the ultimate Self, at the transcendental level where all merges into nirguna brahman, then how shall we view reincarnation?

At the transcendental level there is no incarnation or reincarnation, its truth alone.


Ao: As a series of causes and effects which are not strictly linear a la some Buddhist interpretations?

No idea about it


Ao:
As the journey of one tiny piece of brahman, like a thought that passes through multiple aspects?

Whether it be tiny or large, characteristics remains the same. Its truth alone


Ao: Or should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life?

Shruti commands thus,

Om Isavasyamidam sarvam yatkiñca jagatyam jagat |
tena tyaktena bhuñjitha ma grdhah kasyasvid dhanam 1
kurvanneveha karmani jijivisecchatam samah |
evam tvayi nanyatheto'sti na karma lipyate nare 2 (Holy Isa)

Again truth


Ao: Any thoughts?

Aaanda is the only thought, which is chit and sat, that’s truth. :) Love



.

[kallol]

Personally, I feel that viewing reincarnation as the linear journey of one specific soul through various forms has the danger of promoting I-ness, or ego. For example, one could point to their soul as being essentially 'them', their 'true, eternal self', which to my thinking would distract from the higher truth of the unity of all in brahman. If we are seeking the ultimate Self, at the transcendental level where all merges into nirguna brahman, then how shall we view reincarnation? As a series of causes and effects which are not strictly linear a la some Buddhist interpretations? As the journey of one tiny piece of brahman, like a thought that passes through multiple aspects? Or should our focus be more practical--sowing good karma for this life and leaving whatever will happen in the next life to that next life?

Any thoughts?

Dear Ao,

It is all about how we align ourselves. The "I" can be aligned with Brahman (paraprakriti, purusha, consciousness) or the "I" can be aligned with Maya (aparaprakriti, prakriti, inert).

The purpose of self realisation and the scriptures is to help us align that "I" with the first one. As this is the permament, non changing one. Being attached with permanent higher nature, the stability is there and we do not have to go through the pains of death and birth. It is constant through death and birth.

Aligning with the second one (it may also be the mind which is, though permanent at macro level, is inert and highly fluctuating) has a risk of non permanence of any state. The fluctutions will be through birth and death, and associated mental upheals.

The second one will eternally be subjected to waves and cycles in macro level. There is no stopping of that and so if we align ourselves with this, then the "I" goes through the cycles.

In the micro level even if we full control the mind and make it 99.99999% pure then also it will have rebirth ofcourse after a long gap (even Brahma has rebirth) i.e. it slows downs the cycle of birth-rebirth (ideally zero).

So it is clear that the Lower nature (inert, aparprakriti, etc) is in constant cycle. If we are on it, then we also will be rotating in the giant wheel and never get freedom.

The freedom lies with the alignment with the Higher nature (consciousness, paraprakriti, etc). Because this is permanent and does not go through death and birth.

Now the "I"ness. This "I"ness comes in conjunction with mind. So there is an apparent notion that the liberation is not there.

However once the knowledge is supreme and aligned to the higher nature, the "I" is always detached from the body mind complex in virtual sense. It knows that the body mind complex is there to go through this cycle and the tasks are done as duty and not with attachment and emotions.

Now as the mind is almost pure and the knowledge of TRUTH is embedded into it, the "I"ness reduces to the point of zero (ideally) and merges with Brahman.

The "I" remains merged in the Brahman for the period between the births, which happens after long long gap (ideally it never happens)

Love and best wishes

[Ao]

Now the "I"ness. This "I"ness comes in conjunction with mind. So there is an apparent notion that the liberation is not there.

However once the knowledge is supreme and aligned to the higher nature, the "I" is always detached from the body mind complex in virtual sense. It knows that the body mind complex is there to go through this cycle and the tasks are done as duty and not with attachment and emotions.

Now as the mind is almost pure and the knowledge of TRUTH is embedded into it, the "I"ness reduces to the point of zero (ideally) and merges with Brahman.

The "I" remains merged in the Brahman for the period between the births, which happens after long long gap (ideally it never happens)

Love and best wishes

This section, particularly the second paragraph of those quoted here, has brought a lot of clarity to me. My thanks yet again to you, Kallol, always a pleasure to read your thoughts. :)

[Maya3]

Alignment, that's a beautiful way to put it.

Maya