PDA

View Full Version : The problems of being a Hindu ''convert''



BhaktinAnna
08 August 2010, 05:32 AM
Namaste everyone,

Ive been a part of ISKCON for about the last two years. I consider myself a Hindu, and while I am practising ( no alcohol, pubs, bars, restaurants, meat and chanting 4-8 rounds a day, attending mandir one day a week) I am by no means as strict as some of the people who attend my temple.

I am trying to ease myself in slowly so to speak. To take my time to read and experience as much as possible and to understand properly where I fit into the whole lable of ''Hindu''.

One thing I have come accross where I live within the ''white'' community though is a negative perception of ''white'' Hindus - especially white ISKCON devotees.

At work especially I am percieved as not being a ''proper'' Hindu and instead some kind of hippy playing ''lets pretend to be an Indian'' or a member of a fringe group that isnt accepted in mainstream Hinduism and therefore has no credibility.

I find that my faith and beliefs are not taken as seriously and things are said or implied to me that I feel would not be said if I was of indian or asian background.

I try my best to keep away from the stereotypical '' hare krishna hippy'' look. I wear indian style clothing but mix it with western dress ( Shalwar kameez tops with jeans for instance )- just because I find it more comfortable and in line with my own standards of modesty - and save the saris for the weekend - but I feel constantly like I have to down play or make light of my faith.

Im wondering if anyone else has come accross this type of negative perception? especially those of non indian or asian ethnicity. How do you deal with it in everyday life?? what about at work? how do you deal with the perception that only indians are proper hindus??

I feel like im constantly having to justify or defend myself to the white community despite living in a town with a large muslim and asian population.

Im sorry for such a long post - its only my second here. I hope you all understand what im trying to say ?

ScottMalaysia
08 August 2010, 05:24 PM
Many Christians would view Christian converts to Hinduism negatively, as they believe that Christianity is the only true religion. Americans would also see it as being counterculture, especially since you're not eating meat or drinking booze (on VeggieBoards there are a large number of negative comments that vegetarians have reported people making against vegetarianism).


At work especially I am percieved as not being a ''proper'' Hindu and instead some kind of hippy playing ''lets pretend to be an Indian'' or a member of a fringe group that isnt accepted in mainstream Hinduism and therefore has no credibility.

ISKCON is Hindu, regardless of what they say. They're a particular sect of Hinduism. However, they are far stricter and more devout than many Hindu sects, and they have some beliefs that differ from "mainstream" Hinduism. Therefore, they're perceived as being a different religion or "fringe group".

Most Americans are just not used to seeing white Hindus. They see Hinduism as the religion of Indian people and have most likely never heard of non-Indians adopting it. Many Indians actually believe that it is not possible for a non-Indian to convert to Hinduism - they believe that one must be born into it. However, this is not true and Hinduism has always accepted converts. Swami Vivekananda said that conversion to Hinduism is natural. Some of Alexander the Great's Greeks converted to Hinduism. Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami wrote a book called How to Become a Hindu that details conversion to Hinduism. You can find the full text here (http://himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_table_of_contents.html).

Eastern Mind
08 August 2010, 06:11 PM
Vannakkam Bhaktinanna:

I would say patience is the key. The white people eventually will get used to you for who you are, and so too with the Indians. I've been at this 35 years and still encounter the occasional stare, mostly from Indians who are coming to our temple for the first time, and see me as out of place. Same thing if I go into a temple in a strange city. It does help tio wear Hindu attire to the temples. All the old timers who know me well would never do that. But then I don't where veshti in the western public. I was in a temple in Omaha, the only white guy there, but dressed in Hindu attire, and some Indians came up and asked me about the temple. They were there for the first time as well.

So just be patient. it takes awhile to prove sincerity with everyone, because often they are right in the idea that it is a passing fad. Two years is not a very long time, I'm afraid, in their eyes, or the eyes of your family, or westerners. I found also that when I legally changed my name and announced it at work (I taught) , it was the younger children mostly who thought it was cool. The adults thought it was weird. But amongst the Indians, a name change meant a lot to them. Then they knew I was serious.

Best wishes in having all get used to you.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
08 August 2010, 08:03 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



I would say patience is the key.

EM offers wise words.

Also it is not what you wear but who you are. We all want to be accepted no doubt. Yet at the end of the day you have come into this world alone and will leave alone.
No one will be there to negeotiate anything different - family, friends, or otherwise.

So what is an approach ? .... what EM offers along with just being simple.

you mention,


I feel like im constantly having to justify or defend myself to the white community despite living in a town with a large muslim and asian population

What if your answer to questions is, Oh I enjoy this dress or style. And of your spiritual practices , It just feels right to me. IMHO you owe no-one a reason for your choices. You are bound by them. Keep them wholesome and people will notice. Do things that are uplifting, yet just be simple about it. It is our words & actions people are watching. Do the words match the action?

praṇām

Eastern Mind
08 August 2010, 08:21 PM
Vannakkam again Bhaktinanna

I was giving this some further thought and realised I never showed my Hinduness at all in the west in the secular school system. We never talked religion at all there. It wasn't important. So I never had to 'defend myself' as you say, because the topic never came up. I didn`t wear rudraksha, or vibhuthi to school or shopping. To me the hassle of defending it to anyone wasn`t worth it. So I was thinking you might be presenting yourself in the world so that people do ask, and then you feel you have to defend it. To me, religion is a private matter anyway. Just a thought.

Aum Namasivaya

Onkara
09 August 2010, 04:40 AM
Namasté BhaktinAnna
Is it a requirement to wear Indian Clothing? I have seen followers of ISKON dressed in Indian clothing in my city.

Sahasranama
09 August 2010, 06:30 AM
Don't be afraid to outwardly display that you are Hindu. It's not necessary though. I am an "Indian" Hindu born in the west and I almost never wear Indian clothing. Most of the time when I go to a satsanga or a ritual, I wear jeans and a t-shirt. Only on occasion and in my morning ritual I wear a dhoti and a shawl. The clothes don't make you a Hindu, but if you like the clothes, by all means keep wearing them.

If I'd go to school or work with in traditional Indian style clothing, I would sure get weird looks, even though I am not a white person.

One word of advice, don't express you being a Hindu with even a pinch of self doubt. Say it with confidence, enthusiasm and pride. If you doubt yourself, they will doubt you. If you act like it's the coolest thing in the world, they'll even be a little jealous that they don't have the same background as you do.

Eastern Mind
09 August 2010, 06:51 AM
Most of the time when I go to a satsanga or a ritual, I wear jeans and a t-shirt.

Vannakkam Sahasranama:

Interesting, because I have the opposite take and I'm a convert.

Although it doesn't really matter, I do differ on this one. I ALWAYS wear veshti and shirt to temple, even when its -40. It's an odd contrast when the only people wearing veshti are the white guys. I see western clothing as an erosion of culture. Who's next, the priests in blue jeans too? I think it is a carryover from the British system of denigrading Hindus so we're all ashamed. But the main reason is I FEEL more Hindu in veshti.

Suits and ties, jeans and t-shirts etc kind of look out of place to me. Everyone in traditional dress makes the whole place feel more like India, and therefore more like a Hindu temple. But then I don't have to drive far and its easy for me. There is also the problem of availability of Hindu clothing here.

I try a bit to wear non-leather all the time as well. I have a denim belt, but wallet and work boots are leather. You can buy synthetics but they are hard to find.

I understand if you are on your way to work, and you are just doing that 5 minute drop in thing. Here there are only two Tamil men in a community of some 200 who make it a point to wear veshti like me. I find raunchy slogans on t-shirts somewhat offensive as well, and that too does happen. Some temples have dress codes. The Vishnu temple in Toronto used to have one, although I'm not sure any more.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
09 August 2010, 07:34 AM
I can see you your point. I think it depends of the culture of the temple. In south Indian temples, ISCKON temples and sikh temples almost everyone is dressed in Indian clothing. In a lot of north Indian temples outside India, people wear very diverse clothing.

In our culture, amongst Hindus in the Netherlands, it's important for the people performing the ritual, the priests and the yajman to wear traditional clothing. The rest of the people generally don't wear dhotis. In fact many north Indian priests wear kurta and pajama which is not traditionally Indian at all, but came from the arabs.

Another thing that I have to consider is that if I would wear traditional clothing to most of the religious gatherings, people would think that I am the priest. This has happened to me before. I had put on a red dhoti, a white shirt with a large orange shawl with "aum namah shivay" printed on it and some rudraksha malas as a yajnopavita. People started calling me "maharaj ji."

I agree that if everyone would wear Indian clothing, it would benefit the atmosphere. Maybe I'll consider it in the future.

kallol
09 August 2010, 09:44 AM
Namaste everyone,

Ive been a part of ISKCON for about the last two years. I consider myself a Hindu, and while I am practising ( no alcohol, pubs, bars, restaurants, meat and chanting 4-8 rounds a day, attending mandir one day a week) I am by no means as strict as some of the people who attend my temple.

I am trying to ease myself in slowly so to speak. To take my time to read and experience as much as possible and to understand properly where I fit into the whole lable of ''Hindu''.

One thing I have come accross where I live within the ''white'' community though is a negative perception of ''white'' Hindus - especially white ISKCON devotees.

At work especially I am percieved as not being a ''proper'' Hindu and instead some kind of hippy playing ''lets pretend to be an Indian'' or a member of a fringe group that isnt accepted in mainstream Hinduism and therefore has no credibility.

I find that my faith and beliefs are not taken as seriously and things are said or implied to me that I feel would not be said if I was of indian or asian background.

I try my best to keep away from the stereotypical '' hare krishna hippy'' look. I wear indian style clothing but mix it with western dress ( Shalwar kameez tops with jeans for instance )- just because I find it more comfortable and in line with my own standards of modesty - and save the saris for the weekend - but I feel constantly like I have to down play or make light of my faith.

Im wondering if anyone else has come accross this type of negative perception? especially those of non indian or asian ethnicity. How do you deal with it in everyday life?? what about at work? how do you deal with the perception that only indians are proper hindus??

I feel like im constantly having to justify or defend myself to the white community despite living in a town with a large muslim and asian population.

Im sorry for such a long post - its only my second here. I hope you all understand what im trying to say ?


Certifications are not required to believe in a way you can. No one is more or less hindu. Neither you have to show outwardly any hinduness to believe in hinduism.

It is your (and only uniquely yours) spiritual path. Tread it as you can. You do not have to live other's life.

There are plenty of books, friends, discourses, etc available all over the places.

Love and best wishes

BhaktinAnna
09 August 2010, 12:25 PM
Namaste,
Thank you for your reply.

Just to clarify a few things :)

-Im in the UK, I live just outside London, near a place called Slough and in a place with a large Asian, Chinese and muslim population. There are mosques and mandirs and buddhist centres, and its even becoming more commen to find white poeple in islamic or asian traditional clothing.

- The mandir I go to requires that traditional dress - including vaishnav tilak be worn when doing service around the temple -something i do on a weekly basis.

- Ive always been something of an alternative dresser. On my very first visit to an Iskcon temple I was wearing a floaty sari skirt, kurti top and scarf over my head, with bangles and a bindi. Its the way i dressed for years. I dress in long skirts and kurti tops because i feel more comfortable and modest in them than jeans and t-shirts.

- I do wear a few strands of tulsi mala and because of the style of tops I wear - they are on show most of the time but i dont go out of the way to wear huge chunky ones or anything. I think that by the time ive a nose pin, tulsi mala, long skirt and t-shirt/ kurti top - i look like a devotee one way or another. its the whole look taken together rather than the fact that im walking around in saris or punjabis or something.

Im used to people staring at me for how i dress ( i was a goth for many years - piercings - black make up - the works ) and that doesnt bother me. And i dont mind standing out as being a devotee - nor do i feel the need to stand out as a devotee..

most indian people i come across are very accpeting - and think its nice that a non indian can appreciate their culture - but the problems I have come from the ''white'' camp so to speak.

The job where i work is a call centre - and people are always going out for after work drinks or meals etc which i dont join in with. Where ever possible i try to keep explanations away from anything religious but it gets hard to keep coming up with excuses without seeming rude or unsociable or getting too personal about my beliefs.

Sometimes i do find it easier to at least say im religious and leave it as ambiguous as possible - but its when it really gets down to needing days off, or when there is a big event on - like at christmass - or when the odd joke goes past about hare krishnas that i feel like my faith just isnt taken seriously - because im white.

I often feel that things get said to me that wouldnt if I was indian or in a headscarf or something..

once when i complained about the situation- i actualy had a manager blame the problem on me and my skin color.

Ironically - my work also has a number of hijabi muslims at work - and ive actually ended up finding myself a whole bunch of friends in them - just because on many levels we understand each other - even if our core beliefs are very differant.

Im really just wondering how people deal with this kind of attitude in every day life ? I dont feel that its fair that i should have to go out of my way to hide my beliefs but im not one to push it in peoples faces. I do strongly believe in dressing modestly and wearing tulsi and chanting etc but i dont walk out of my house trying to dress like i just fell out of some indian village - just so everyone will think im cool..

sorry again - for such a long post. I hope again that you understand what im getting at here ?

Eastern Mind
09 August 2010, 01:12 PM
Another thing that I have to consider is that if I would wear traditional clothing to most of the religious gatherings, people would think that I am the priest. This has happened to me before. I had put on a red dhoti, a white shirt with a large orange shawl with "aum namah shivay" printed on it and some rudraksha malas as a yajnopavita. People started calling me "maharaj ji."


Being mistaken for the priest is better that being mistaken for God. Back when I was the pandaram here, a kid came up to me and called me God. After some discussion with the parents, the reason for the confusion became clear. Apparently the parents had been telling the child that they went to the temple to see God. (Which was fair enough) but the child wasn't actually told that the murthy was God, so since I was the only breathing living creature that was always there the child thought I was God. I imagine there was a rather detailed explanation on the car on the way home that day. Kind of funny and sad at the same time.

I do hassle some of my older Tamil friends about wearing veshti. At festival time 90% of them do. But on regular days, no. But you're right that it depends on the temple too. I just make it a point at any temple. The veshti is like putting on nice clothing for a wedding or something. Not only that you are going to see God, and He is like a king. I think people should dress up for the sanctity of the event basically.

Aum Namasivaya

NetiNeti
09 August 2010, 02:10 PM
I am white, 29 years old and a devout Hindu. I see a lot of these issues as a cultural things. Hinduism is a faith or religion and its core is that of Brahma (who is beyond description). Being "Indian" is cultural and comes from a specific country, India. I am Italian by heritage and American by birth. My diet is mostly that of my forefathers but removing meats and eggs and follows Vedic law. My dress is American and when I go to temple I wear a nice button up and slacks. My home is very modern but contains a proper shrine. None of my furniture or decorations are Indian in design.

I am not Indian nor do I pretend to be. Most of my fellow devotees are Indian but this creates no conflict for me. While the taste of our food, our language, and style of dress differs; our hearts burn with the same fire. That is all that matters.

I don't feel that my offerings of a vegetarian pasta and salad are frowned upon by the Gods I offer them to. I don't feel the clothes I wear offend them either. When The earth was made, it was all created by Vishnu. He did not only make India. All the cultures, traditions, diets and languages come from him. While many nations have lost their way spiritually, I have not.

Even though I look different I never feel out of place. The temples I visit were made for Hindus and since I am Hindu I have just as much right to be there as anyone else.

I feel like white devotees try to fit in by assimilating the cultural aspects of India. This is ineffective. It is your faith that matters, your devotion and your love. The color of your skin, your country of origin you dress are neither this nor that. If you are a Hindu you should be more concerned with your karma than your shirt.

Sahasranama
09 August 2010, 02:30 PM
EasternMind, you make a good point, maybe it's even good to stand out with clothing, so that you can set a standard so that others will show up in traditional clothing too the next time.

Most people will argue that it's all about what happens on the inside, but the outside can definitely influence the inside. The atmosphere of the place of worship can bring tranquility if it's clean and decorated and when people show up dressed for the occasion.

The clothing can be a symbol for Hinduism and there's definitely a lot of shakti in symbols.


I am white, 29 years old and a devout Hindu. I see a lot of these issues as a cultural things. Hinduism is a faith or religion and its core is that of Brahma (who is beyond description). Being "Indian" is cultural and comes from a specific country, India. I am Italian by heritage and American by birth. My diet is mostly that of my forefathers but removing meats and eggs and follows Vedic law. My dress is American and when I go to temple I wear a nice button up and slacks. My home is very modern but contains a proper shrine. None of my furniture or decorations are Indian in design.

I am not Indian nor do I pretend to be. Most of my fellow devotees are Indian but this creates no conflict for me. While the taste of our food, our language, and style of dress differs; our hearts burn with the same fire. That is all that matters.

I don't feel that my offerings of a vegetarian pasta and salad are frowned upon by the Gods I offer them to. I don't feel the clothes I wear offend them either. When The earth was made, it was all created by Vishnu. He did not only make India. All the cultures, traditions, diets and languages come from him. While many nations have lost their way spiritually, I have not. Yes, you should offer the pasta by all means if you want to!


Even though I look different I never feel out of place. The temples I visit were made for Hindus and since I am Hindu I have just as much right to be there as anyone else.

I feel like white devotees try to fit in by assimilating the cultural aspects of India. This is ineffective. It is your faith that matters, your devotion and your love. The color of your skin, your country of origin you dress are neither this nor that. Om Tat Sat. If you are a Hindu you should be more concerned with your karma than your shirt.If the desire to dress up like an Indian doesn't come natural to you, then I doubt it's really necessary for you personally. There's definitely a lot of culture mixed with religious customs and in India the customs are diverse, some are more traditionally based on vedic literature and others come from various foreign cultures. There are lots of rules varying from sect to sect, region to region and scripture to scripture. But those rules cannot be followed by everyone.

But a lot of people will be attracted to both the philosophical side of Hinduism as well as the cultural aspect of it. I definitely think they enrich each other.

Eastern Mind
09 August 2010, 03:39 PM
I feel like white devotees try to fit in by assimilating the cultural aspects of India. This is ineffective. It is your faith that matters, your devotion and your love. The color of your skin, your country of origin you dress are neither this nor that. If you are a Hindu you should be more concerned with your karma than your shirt.

Vannakkam Netineti:

I agree that it is faith that matters. The Indian clothing is meaningless without the faith and respect when in a temple. But I wouldn't go as far to say its ineffective. Irrelevant, maybe. It's an individual thing. I'm very comfortable in Indian clothing and it makes me feel more Hindu. But that's just my personal take. I don't dress to impress anyone other than myself. I'm glad to hear you dress neatly. At our temple we have no dress code, but occasionally the administrators ask someone to remove their hat, and sometimes people enter dressed immodestly.

In South India many temples have dress codes. No lungis for example. Some also have no shirts for men. I have no problems following that within any temple anywhere.

Aum Namasivaya

BryonMorrigan
09 August 2010, 04:35 PM
Personally, I've found (in my experience) that the loudest voices that a non-Indian cannot adopt Hinduism come from (in order of frequency):

1. Western Christian Supremacists who use that as a "reason" to denigrate Hindus.

2. Muslims and Christians who are Indian-born, often because of their deep-seated hatred for Hinduism.

3. Indian Hindus who doubt the commitment of white Hindus and feel that they are likely to lose interest, or mistrust their motives as a form of cultural appropriation.

Numbers one and two clearly have a Christian/Muslim Supremacist agenda, and should be ignored and/or ridiculed. Number three should be approached as a challenge. Prove your sincerity. (IMO)

yajvan
09 August 2010, 10:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Many good ideas and insights have been offered above. I'd like to offer another from the taittirīya upaniṣad 1.11.1 .
For me, it keeps what is important in focus, and reduces the items we add to ourselves that just may be burdensome.

satyānna pramaditavyam
dharmānna pramaditavyam
kuśalānna pramaditavyam
bhūtyai na pramaditavyam

Never swerve away from truth
never swerve away from dharma
never neglect your welfare;
swerve not from any act for the protection of yourself

said another way,


Let there be no neglect of truth
let there be no neglect of dharma ( some call righteousness)
let there be no neglect of prosperity
let there be no neglect of protecting yourself

praṇām

kallol
10 August 2010, 02:58 AM
I am white, 29 years old and a devout Hindu. I see a lot of these issues as a cultural things.

My dress is American and when I go to temple I wear a nice button up and slacks. My home is very modern but contains a proper shrine. None of my furniture or decorations are Indian in design.

I am not Indian nor do I pretend to be. Most of my fellow devotees are Indian but this creates no conflict for me. While the taste of our food, our language, and style of dress differs; our hearts burn with the same fire. That is all that matters.

I don't feel that my offerings of a vegetarian pasta and salad are frowned upon by the Gods I offer them to. I don't feel the clothes I wear offend them either. When The earth was made, it was all created by Vishnu. He did not only make India. All the cultures, traditions, diets and languages come from him. While many nations have lost their way spiritually, I have not.

Even though I look different I never feel out of place. The temples I visit were made for Hindus and since I am Hindu I have just as much right to be there as anyone else.

I feel like white devotees try to fit in by assimilating the cultural aspects of India. This is ineffective. It is your faith that matters, your devotion and your love. The color of your skin, your country of origin you dress are neither this nor that. If you are a Hindu you should be more concerned with your karma than your shirt.


Beautifully summarised NetiNeti.

I would suggest to divide the aspects into two clear areas

1. Culture : Food, dress, rituals, traditions, superstitions, habits, etc.

2. Spriritual growth : Niskama Bhakti, Niskama Karma and Knowledge of TRUTH

The culture part will vary from place to place : even in India we have so many cultures which vary widely. It should be more so with countries.

Culture has some bearing on Spiritual growth but Spiritual Growth has major bearing on culture.

So to move to Spiritual growth through adapting culture (in a major way) would be herculean task and challenging socially.

Rather moving from the spiritual growth to adjust the culture would be more aligned to mind's conformance.

I would be happy if I am continuing with my culture and gain the knowledge of Sanatan Dharma and be able to assimilate that in my interaction with myself and outside.

The crux of hinduism is the assimilation of the knowledge and live it. This focus should not be lost.

Ofcourse to appreciate that knowledge one needs to develop that devotion and faith through niskama bhakti and karma to condition the mind to receive the knowledge in more pure form.

Love and best wishes

Eastern Mind
10 August 2010, 06:30 AM
The job where i work is a call centre - and people are always going out for after work drinks or meals etc which i dont join in with. Where ever possible i try to keep explanations away from anything religious but it gets hard to keep coming up with excuses without seeming rude or unsociable or getting too personal about my beliefs.

Ironically - my work also has a number of hijabi muslims at work - and ive actually ended up finding myself a whole bunch of friends in them - just because on many levels we understand each other - even if our core beliefs are very differant.

Im really just wondering how people deal with this kind of attitude in every day life ? I dont feel that its fair that i should have to go out of my way to hide my beliefs but im not one to push it in peoples faces. I do strongly believe in dressing modestly and wearing tulsi and chanting etc but i dont walk out of my house trying to dress like i just fell out of some indian village - just so everyone will think im cool..

sorry again - for such a long post. I hope again that you understand what im getting at here ?

Vannakkam BhaktinAnna:

I dealt with stuff like this as a teacher. At Christmas time I refused to celebrate Christmas, so I supervised the Muslims and the Jehovah Witnesses in the library. So I can relate to your befriending the Muslims where you work.

The Friday after work going to the bar thing I just never did, and I wasn't alone. Lots of people didn't go. I was often pressured but I'd usually just say I had something else to do, which I did ... like going home to be with family.

Occasionally someone would say something stupid. I remember once I was telling someone else (an understanding person) how I didn't like it when people brought up Christianity in my face, and this guy said, "I guess the truth hurts," Another time I was wearing a single rudraksha and someone said it looked like a dried up calf testicle.

The best advice I ever got came from a Christian colleague (smart one, not some nut case) to always "consider the source". Racist mean drinking bullies get this attitude from one thing alone: their own insecurities. They have a psychological need to belittle others. Often it is to get attention from their own version of an 'in' crowd, no better than adolescents. That's what causes the behaviour. So the goal is to be able to let it go in one ear and out the other. To not react. If you can look at it from the old soul, young soul angle, and realise they are also on the path, but in the kindergarten class, that will help.

I used to practice a bit mentally as well by imagining scenarios, and visualising myself not reacting.

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
10 August 2010, 08:46 AM
people are always going out for after work drinks or meals etc which i dont join in with. Where ever possible i try to keep explanations away from anything religious but it gets hard to keep coming up with excuses without seeming rude or unsociable or getting too personal about my beliefs.

Sometimes i do find it easier to at least say im religious and leave it as ambiguous as possible - but its when it really gets down to needing days off, or when there is a big event on - like at christmass - or when the odd joke goes past about hare krishnas that i feel like my faith just isnt taken seriously - because im white.

They are seeing you as being counterculture. Going out for a few beers after work at a pub and having some bangers and mash is part of British culture. You could always say that you're vegetarian and that you don't drink.


I often feel that things get said to me that wouldnt if I was indian or in a headscarf or something..

When people see someone Indian, they instantly recognise that that person is from a different culture and probably a different religion. When they look at you, they see a white British person, who is of the same culture as them. With regard to what you said about a headscarf, converts to Islam are probably taken more seriously because the religion has a specific conversion procedure and many famous people such as Yusuf Islam and Muhammad Ali have converted.


when the odd joke goes past about hare krishnas that i feel like my faith just isnt taken seriously - because im white.

Tell people that you're a Hindu. People associate Hindus with India while they associate Hare Krishnas with hippies who dance around on the streets. ISKCON follows the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect of Hinduism, so feel free to call yourself a Hindu.


once when i complained about the situation- i actualy had a manager blame the problem on me and my skin color.

Isn't that illegal in Britain? If the same thing was said in New Zealand, the manager would find himself facing all sorts of complaints and possibly even charges.


I dont feel that its fair that i should have to go out of my way to hide my beliefs but im not one to push it in peoples faces. I do strongly believe in dressing modestly and wearing tulsi and chanting etc but i dont walk out of my house trying to dress like i just fell out of some indian village - just so everyone will think im cool..

Wearing tulsi beads and tilak is not 'pushing your religion in people's faces' any more than a Muslim woman wearing a headscarf. The only difference is that people assume the Muslim woman was born following that religion while you have converted.

Possibly you could buy some shalwar kameez suits. They consist of a knee-length shirt and loose baggy trousers and look very nice. They are easier to put on than a sari and might suit your image better. Try looking in Indian clothing shops (I'm sure they'll be a few in London).


Although it doesn't really matter, I do differ on this one. I ALWAYS wear veshti and shirt to temple, even when its -40. It's an odd contrast when the only people wearing veshti are the white guys. I see western clothing as an erosion of culture. Who's next, the priests in blue jeans too? I think it is a carryover from the British system of denigrading Hindus so we're all ashamed. But the main reason is I FEEL more Hindu in veshti.

Suits and ties, jeans and t-shirts etc kind of look out of place to me. Everyone in traditional dress makes the whole place feel more like India, and therefore more like a Hindu temple. But then I don't have to drive far and its easy for me. There is also the problem of availability of Hindu clothing here.

At our temple, the majority of women wear saris, and the majority of men wear Western clothes. Myself and the priest are usually the only ones who wear Indian clothes. I used to wear kurta shalwar as my normal dress for going to the temple, but I've gained so much weight that the shalwar trousers don't fit comfortably anymore. So I'll be wearing the dhoti/veshti to the temple from now on. My mother (who isn't Hindu or religious) keeps telling me that I'd fit in much better if I wore "normal" clothes but I prefer to wear clothes that I don't wear for any other purpose than worship (although I did wear my kurta shalwar for other purposes in Malaysia where it was warmer).

The way I see it is that as a convert, I need to declare that I am a Hindu. The clothes, together with the red tilak on my forehead, show these people that without a doubt, I am a Hindu. A Westerner who went to the temple wearing jeans and a T-shirt would not be seen the same way. A friend of mine, who is a Western Muslim, always dresses in modest Islamic clothing (generally a skirt or abaya) and always wears a headscarf. If she walked into a mosque in a strange city, everyone would know that she was a Muslim and would not question her. In contrast, I saw Muslim women in Malaysia who were born Muslim but wore immodest clothes such as tight tops and tight jeans with their headscarves (and some who didn't wear headscarves at all). It's generally the case that converts are more zealous because they need to prove that they are truly a member of that religion.

BryonMorrigan
10 August 2010, 10:08 AM
When people see someone Indian, they instantly recognise that that person is from a different culture and probably a different religion. When they look at you, they see a white British person, who is of the same culture as them. With regard to what you said about a headscarf, converts to Islam are probably taken more seriously because the religion has a specific conversion procedure and many famous people such as Yusuf Islam and Muhammad Ali have converted.

I know this is probably a minority position here, but this is why I'm glad about the whole Julia Roberts thing. Maybe it will put Western Hindus more in context for the average person.

Believer
10 August 2010, 01:20 PM
Certifications are not required to believe in a way you can. No one is more or less hindu. Neither you have to show outwardly any hinduness to believe in hinduism.

It is your (and only uniquely yours) spiritual path. Tread it as you can. You do not have to live other's life.

There are plenty of books, friends, discourses, etc available all over the places.


Personally, I've found (in my experience) that the loudest voices that a non-Indian cannot adopt Hinduism come from (in order of frequency):

1. Western Christian Supremacists who use that as a "reason" to denigrate Hindus.

2. Muslims and Christians who are Indian-born, often because of their deep-seated hatred for Hinduism.

3. Indian Hindus who doubt the commitment of white Hindus and feel that they are likely to lose interest, or mistrust their motives as a form of cultural appropriation.

Numbers one and two clearly have a Christian/Muslim Supremacist agenda, and should be ignored and/or ridiculed. Number three should be approached as a challenge. Prove your sincerity. (IMO)

I envy the people who can express so much in so few words.

BTW, ISKCON devotees wear what they consider to be "spiritual clothes" to the temple, not Indian or Western or any other clothes.

Eastern Mind
10 August 2010, 02:11 PM
I know this is probably a minority position here, but this is why I'm glad about the whole Julia Roberts thing. Maybe it will put Western Hindus more in context for the average person.

Vannakkam: Maybe. Maybe not. I think it sort of depends on how she continues her practice of Hinduism. A lot of westerners lose some interest when they find out about some things, like the discipline, the yamas and niyamas, or even the menses custom or marital fidelity. Hopefully she'll learn this stuff and practice it.

So I say we wait and see.

Although Richard Gere claims to be a practising Buddhist, some of his lifestyle choices are questionable.

Aum Namasivaya

BryonMorrigan
10 August 2010, 02:17 PM
Although Richard Gere claims to be a practising Buddhist, some of his lifestyle choices are questionable.

Yeah, him and Tiger Woods...

But that just puts them up there with the majority of Christian celebrities in the West, who also don't exactly live up to the general religious teachings of their religion. At least I don't hear people saying that one can't be a Buddhist unless they're ethnically Asian...

Eastern Mind
10 August 2010, 05:55 PM
Yeah, him and Tiger Woods...

But that just puts them up there with the majority of Christian celebrities in the West, who also don't exactly live up to the general religious teachings of their religion. At least I don't hear people saying that one can't be a Buddhist unless they're ethnically Asian...

Vannakkam: You mean the Mel Gibson types. Still, I feel sorry for those with karma to be in the limelight. I think its a tough karma, and a tough life. Very few celebs come through it really well and sane. Better just to be some simple peasant somewhere with enough to eat, and enough free time to worship.

Aum Namasivaya

BryonMorrigan
10 August 2010, 06:31 PM
Oh, and another thing: Whenever some Christian tells you that some Hindus don't accept Western Hindus...remind them that some Christians (Google "Christian Identity") don't believe that non-Whites can be Christian, and believe that Jews are some kind of evil demon-race. (Heck, that's pretty close to some of what Mel Gibson seems to believe...at that...)

Ramakrishna
10 August 2010, 10:11 PM
Vannakkam: You mean the Mel Gibson types. Still, I feel sorry for those with karma to be in the limelight. I think its a tough karma, and a tough life. Very few celebs come through it really well and sane. Better just to be some simple peasant somewhere with enough to eat, and enough free time to worship.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste Eastern Mindji,

Julia seems to agree with you: "Golly, I've been so spoiled with my friends and family in this life. Next time I want to be just something quiet and supporting."

But of course for some people being in the limelight could be a blessing. They could do great things like charity and activism and inspire people. It all depends on how they use the popularity and being the focus of attention.

But I would still choose the peasant's life over the Hollywood life. :)

Jai Sri Krishna

Kumar_Das
10 August 2010, 11:54 PM
anti-Semitism is something that Christians and Muslims have been historically very good at and even today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmg97rnz4xg

Hindus have given refuge to Jews. And Parsees when the Muslims invaded Iran, and the Bahai's in modern times. Not to mention Hindu kings defending Buddhist monks and constructing temples for them.

Racism is also a very Muslim thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhSejBDTPI

Zanzibar revolt, Blacks massacre Arabs for enslaving them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqHi50YdAQQ&feature=related

Sudan today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoAxr-ZZz_U

Still blacks have been converting to islam in flocks.

kallol
12 August 2010, 05:34 AM
BTW, ISKCON devotees wear what they consider to be "spiritual clothes" to the temple, not Indian or Western or any other clothes.



We all are cautious with dresses when we go to place of worship lest God gets angry and possibly ogle :D ;)


Love and best wishes

naga
16 October 2010, 10:44 PM
I agree with kallol, for the last 20 years as a white westerner I have attended countless Hindu ceremonies, never said Im Hindu but follow Sanathana Dharma. Like offering pearls to the swine, keep it to your self. The outsiders will never understand something even in our lifetimes we wouldn't fully understand. Maybe in several births they might become interested in the Vedas too.

Maya3
28 October 2010, 11:40 PM
What a great discussion!
I'm so glad I found this forum, actually someone recommended it to me! :)

First to Anna,

I'm a "convert" too, though I have never converted FROM anything so I don't think I count as a convert.
I have had similar reactions from Asian Hindu's where they don't think I'm really Hindu. I had one situation where they were nice and spoke about it a little but then I found out that they had said to each other behind my back that I couldn't REALLY be a Hindu.

It hurt, but now when I've been following this path for about 10 years, I find that I have had a lot more good experiences than bad ones.
I've been pleasantly surprised by non Indian non Hindu people when I've told them, only one person so far has had a surprised and kind of ignorant reaction.

And with Indians or people of Asian decent, most people have been pleasantly surprised too. If I say that I belong to an Ashram and follow the Dharma it seems to get more acceptance than if I say that I'm Hindu.

I don't wear Indian style clothing. When I'm not at work, I wear a little Indian like style, but it's more my own style than traditional Indian. At work all I wear pants and t-shirts. The only way people would tell is because they see my small OM pendant around my neck.

I agree with Neti Neti, I'm not Indian, I have never even been to India.
I'm a Swede living in the U.S. I celebrate Swedish traditions and American ones, all secular.
Spiritual traditions are all Hindu.

:)

ScottMalaysia
29 October 2010, 07:28 AM
The only way people would tell is because they see my small OM pendant around my neck.

Maybe you could wear a small bindi on your forehead as well.

Eastern Mind
29 October 2010, 08:26 AM
The only way people would tell is because they see my small OM pendant around my neck.

:)

Vannakkam: The Sanskrit Om is so common now that many unread westerners don't even know what it means. My daughter, a hairstylist, tells many a story of people coming in for a cut with some Om somewhere, as a tattoo, a bracelet, earring, or pendant. Then she mentions, "Oh, you have a Sanskrit Om. That's nice." to get some conversation going. Often the person denies that and argues that it is just a symbol of peace. Then my daughter moves on to a new topic because she does want return customers.

What you say about the terms 'ashram' and 'dharma' being more acceptable than 'Hindu' is sad (in my opinion) but true. There is lots of stuff here on HDF about the yoga denial of Hinduism, so I won't start it all up all over again. The British, Porteugeuse, Christians etc. did a real number on the word back in colonial times, and it has stuck around. Almost the same as the 'n' word but not quite. For some reasons slaves from India were more politely referred to in history books as 'indentured labor'.

Personally, I say I'm Hindu. Most commonly it comes from introductions, as I carry a Hindu name. But if they don't hear me, my first name becomes John, and Murugan becomes Morgan. Fairly natural response from the subconscious mind. I never go anywhere with it (correct them) unless the individual is going to become more than an acquaintance.

Aum Namasivaya

Maya3
29 October 2010, 09:34 AM
Vannakkam: The Sanskrit Om is so common now that many unread westerners don't even know what it means. My daughter, a hairstylist, tells many a story of people coming in for a cut with some Om somewhere, as a tattoo, a bracelet, earring, or pendant. Then she mentions, "Oh, you have a Sanskrit Om. That's nice." to get some conversation going. Often the person denies that and argues that it is just a symbol of peace. Then my daughter moves on to a new topic because she does want return customers.

What you say about the terms 'ashram' and 'dharma' being more acceptable than 'Hindu' is sad (in my opinion) but true. There is lots of stuff here on HDF about the yoga denial of Hinduism, so I won't start it all up all over again. The British, Porteugeuse, Christians etc. did a real number on the word back in colonial times, and it has stuck around. Almost the same as the 'n' word but not quite. For some reasons slaves from India were more politely referred to in history books as 'indentured labor'.

Personally, I say I'm Hindu. Most commonly it comes from introductions, as I carry a Hindu name. But if they don't hear me, my first name becomes John, and Murugan becomes Morgan. Fairly natural response from the subconscious mind. I never go anywhere with it (correct them) unless the individual is going to become more than an acquaintance.

Aum Namasivaya

I agree, a lot of people have no idea what it means. Here in the US, some people think I do Hatha yoga. I do...but that's not why I wear it.
In Sweden, no one has a clue what it means. One person thought it was the communist Moon and Hammer, and another asked why I wore the number 30 around my neck. What's ironic though is that I actually bought m pendant in Sweden.

Don't get me wrong, I tell people that I'm Hindu if it comes up in conversation. But I find that Asian Hindu's take me more seriously when I talk about my Ashram. It IS kind of sad. I often wonder if they don't give their own religion enough credit since they are so surprised that other people embrace it.
I think it's a lot more surprising that so few westerners have found it.

Maya

Eastern Mind
29 October 2010, 10:09 AM
I tell people that I'm Hindu if it comes up in conversation.

Maya

Vannakkam: That's my stance exactly, unless they're Indian, and I see that they're Hindu or there is some purpose. For example, we have temporary immigrant legislation here, and in rural areas I might bump into some Indian Hindu person working in some fast food joint on a one year temporary working visa, and I'll let him or her know about our temple. But with westerners, I'd never bring it up. Seems too much like proseltysing to me. Another example is at hotels owned by Hindus. occasionally I'll say, "Nice picture of Ganesha" or something like that.

Aum Namasivaya

parteeksharma
11 May 2014, 03:23 AM
namaste :)

from what i know there is no provision in Hinduism of certifying somebody and neither is there any for excommunication so i guess you need not worry about it.

don't try to fit in with other members of Hindu community its your own personal spiritual journey,every human is born different,yes i agree there may be a little nonacceptance of a white hindu convert,same would happen to an indian(or asian) who converts to christianity ,..people have a certain mindset

in hinduism there are lot of people who are revered who were earlier from not accepted in the society just because of the path they chose for example valmiki who was earlier a robber and after what he chose he became a maharishi.

Ram ji as well in rameshwaram prayed to lord Shiva in order to seek forgiveness for killing ravan and when he was dying lord ram asked his brother lakshman ji to seek knwoledge from the 'mahapandit'--the reason i am telling this is may be some hindus may not accept you but there is no way hinduism will not

you need not worry about them its between you and your god ,nobody came with you on this earth and nobody will accompany you ,so its you alone the whole way:)

just dont try anything to please them you would be doing injustice to your inner self and thus to your god who lives inside you,even still if you are worried about them people will eventually accept you as a HINDU

Eastern Mind
12 May 2014, 06:54 PM
namaste :)

from what i know there is no provision in Hinduism of certifying somebody

Vannakkam parteek: Although this thread is almost 4 years old .... (look in the top left corner for dates of posts) I thought I should respond anyway.

Both the Arya Samaj (for reconverting back to Hinduism) and Saiva Siddhanta Church, an American based Hindu organisation, (ethical conversion after a long process of study) issue certificates. Sometimes these certificates can be useful ... for entering temples, etc.

But you are essentially correct ... just start practicing.

Aum Namasivaya

parteeksharma
13 May 2014, 12:29 AM
namsate EM,

i am sorry for posting in a thread which is so old,i never realized that i should also check the dates when the posts were posted. I am just getting hang of using the forum(i've never been in one) so please excuse my ignorance :)

thanks for pointing out that certificates are indeed issued ,..but is there any provision of this kind in any of our scriptures?
the societies which issue such certificates will end up creating a new sect in my opinion
It seems absurd to say that "i am a certified Hindu",so that means a non certified hindu might not be a hindu in their views !! according to me that takes away all the good this religion has because if there is certification there must be people who judge the candidates,down the line they will even start issuing fatwas and try to command hindus who they have certified in this process i guess god(religion) and humanity takes a back seat and the people on the top become the gods on earth (i guess we have seen that a lot !!)

about the temples i know of some temples(in south india) which have dress code and allows only hindus and i guess there are a few who only allow brahman community,well i say that is pure nonsense,if lord ram can share berries with shabri why can't such people(be it people from lower castes or other religions) pay their respect in the temple,

*ram ji tells shabri about the nava-vidha bhakti,nine forms of devotion.after telling the nine froms he tells that out these nine, "bhakti" pleases me the most*

so why people on earth mere mortals should govern who should enter the house of god who is totally blind to the mortal identity of his bhagat,....may be because we gave them power to certify :confused:

Eastern Mind
18 May 2014, 09:55 PM
namsate EM,

i am sorry for posting in a thread which is so old,i never realized that i should also check the dates when the posts were posted. I am just getting hang of using the forum(i've never been in one) so please excuse my ignorance :)

thanks for pointing out that certificates are indeed issued ,..but is there any provision of this kind in any of our scriptures?
the societies which issue such certificates will end up creating a new sect in my opinion
It seems absurd to say that "i am a certified Hindu",so that means a non certified hindu might not be a hindu in their views !! according to me that takes away all the good this religion has because if there is certification there must be people who judge the candidates,down the line they will even start issuing fatwas and try to command hindus who they have certified in this process i guess god(religion) and humanity takes a back seat and the people on the top become the gods on earth (i guess we have seen that a lot !!)

about the temples i know of some temples(in south india) which have dress code and allows only hindus and i guess there are a few who only allow brahman community,well i say that is pure nonsense,if lord ram can share berries with shabri why can't such people(be it people from lower castes or other religions) pay their respect in the temple,

*ram ji tells shabri about the nava-vidha bhakti,nine forms of devotion.after telling the nine froms he tells that out these nine, "bhakti" pleases me the most*

so why people on earth mere mortals should govern who should enter the house of god who is totally blind to the mortal identity of his bhagat,....may be because we gave them power to certify :confused:

Vannakkam parteek: I have one such certificate,and its helped me get into a temple in TN. It's not necessary, but at the same time it's helpful, just like carrying a passport might be.

Aum Namasivaya

Ravenwolf
28 June 2014, 08:42 AM
Hare Krsna,

This is a great thread. I am a recent convert and live in the hills of Appalacia in the US. I was raised in the redneck region of the bible belt. I come from that general area. The closest Iskcon agency near me is over 75 miles one way. I have not "Come out" as it were with my religious beliefs yet as I am still very new to the faith. I am however not unfamilliar with the faith as I had a girlfriend who was Krishna years ago who lived int he area. Her family was the only family in the region that was. (An Anomally here) However that family moved away years ago and I lost all contact. Here killing Bambi is a cultural requirement and drinking is as well. Man it's hard to be anything but what the Rednecks want you to be. But I have always been an extrovert and and type A personality. I have always been cultured and drawn to Hinduism. For me it is a completion of Karma I believe that I am where I am and am in the faith. I am still struggling with trying to convert my diet. But I did not just fall into this faith, it was here I was led by Krsna. I will tell who needs to know. Family will just have to deal with it. Friends will just have to deal with it as well, or I am sure I will make new ones. There is no requirement I tell my boss at work my faith, so feel no pressure there.

I would love to get traditional clothes but have no idea where to get them or what men wear. I have no idea how to make a tilak? All I know is that Krsna has led me to where I am and I am his child. All else matters little in the material world. I could care less what others think of me, but have not flown my flag yet so to speak as I am only in the faith for a bout a month and getting my bearings. I will fly my flag when it is right. Till then I would suggest those of you facing adversity for your faith stand to be counted with Krsna and nothing else (Assuming you are Krishna Conscious) THe local Iskcon facility here is sponsoring a Ratha Yatra soon and I am going with my teenage daughter. I was there years ago and loved it. The world is a wonderfaul palce with Krsna in it. I would say do not be afraid to express who are and let the world deal with it. Of what conceern is it of others where you are in the spiritual path, you have made it to where you are and that is where you are to be. ;-)

Eastern Mind
29 June 2014, 03:31 PM
Vannakkam Ravenwolf: You can order anything you want in regard to clothing on-line. it's quite easy. I've uses Krishnastore (or some name like that) .

Other stuff is on-line as well, like how to apply tilak, vegetarian support, and more.

Aum Namasivaya

Ravenwolf
29 June 2014, 06:21 PM
Thank you for the reply. I shall look at the site.

Samraat Bhismadeva Maurya
30 June 2014, 02:15 AM
I feel for you OP, i know one of my friends who follow the path of santana dharma more strictly than others, yet still, as he is "white", he is not allowed into the Jaganatha temple!

markandeya 108 dasa
02 July 2014, 12:40 PM
Pranams members,

I find it very funny in this day and age that White people or any other non Hindu can not enter Lord Jaganaths temple.

In Vrndavana and Mayapura and other places in India white devotees of Sri Krsna have been born, educated, nationalised with passport, have learned sanskrit and done devotional practices and lived in the holy places all their life, but they are not allowed in the temple.

An Indian, who eats meat, may not have true sraddha in the Lord can go and visit when he likes.

The true vaishnava is not disturbed by this act of local brahmins, many of them eat fish, because the devotee is humble, the devotee is satisfied that Sri Jaganatha will come to see the devotees outside once a year.

Its not just whites its anyone who is not Hindu Brown by birth, they even want to stop Hindus who are born outside of India for not entering.

If this practiced was handled in this way in the west, the temple would be closed down for acts of racism. Its such a pity in such a great culture you have traces of racism and native superiority. But this is Kali yuga, a time where degradation is considered advancement and Adarma is Dharma.

Ys

Md

Eastern Mind
02 July 2014, 02:04 PM
Vannakkam: What is the actual policy at that temple? Does it say 'No foreigners' od 'no whites' or does it say 'Only Hindus'.

Just curious.

Aum Namasivaya

markandeya 108 dasa
02 July 2014, 02:55 PM
Pranams Eastern Mind,

As far as I know its still the same, only Hindu's, at one point it was being pushed native Indian Hindus only, the reason that Indians abroad have been infected my the mellechas :), if that came to pass I will have to check.

It has not been a rule that has been accepted without question, ISKCON has challenged and opened many debates on very high levels to allow access to ISKCON devotees, but always denied. They are standing firm.

In general the pujaris and brahmins caste that run the temple are very friendly with devotees, I have been to several of their houses and shared prasdam with them.

I can understand from a historic point of view with the behavior of the British and the Moguls, but that is history, the world is a very different place now, and with the growing power of human rights the sacred temple could come under very bad criticism, which would be unfortunate.

Ys

Md

Eastern Mind
02 July 2014, 03:56 PM
Pranams Eastern Mind,

As far as I know its still the same, only Hindu's, at one point it was being pushed native Indian Hindus only, the reason that Indians abroad have been infected my the mellechas :), if that came to pass I will have to check.



Vannakkam, and thank you for that. I also understand that some Vishnu temples in Kerala follow the same hard and fast rules and strict enforcement.

I totally get the no nonHindu allowed policy. We don't need any more disrespect that that which is already out there. There is also a real security issue especially on festival days.

In days past, and today, skin color is an indicator and a pretty decent one. But it certainly isn't the only one. An NRI with family, or a non-Hindu (a Moslem, or Christian, or atheist) could likely walk right past the rules, unless of course they look at passports.

When stopped at Madurai, which also has the same signage, I showed my passport and conversion certificate, and was granted access with no problem. So it's more the way the rule is interpreted and enforced that varies. It was nice being outside the range of camera toting staring tourists. But again it was easily bypassed. My driver had a Moslem friend who tagged along with no problem. He was an architecture student interested in it, so that was why took opportunities to go in.

At the main gopurams at Madurai we had to go through a metal detector similar to the ones at airports. Unfortunate, but it made sense to me.

Aum Namasivaya

Samraat Bhismadeva Maurya
03 July 2014, 12:23 AM
Hari Bol!

Thank you for your answer!
I guess it's because we live in Kali-Yuga, as time goes on this will only get worse! It's sad to think, but it's destiny i guess.

Jai Sri Radhe Syam!

yajvan
04 July 2014, 04:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Please consider this... for some it will make sense for others they will scratch their heads.
A covering (ācchādaka¹) is no less a covering no matter what you choose, if it over-shadows one's real nature.
Doesn't matter if one is a redneck or even the vaiṣṇava¹. For the redneck the thickness of ignorance may be more then the vaiṣṇava - doesn't matter. If one's true original core being (ātmamukhaṃ¹) is not known , does it matter what you wear ? Wear you go, what you do ? having a tattoo ? If one living in ignorance thinks that changing how they look will make a difference - it is just folly. It may make you ~feel~ more spiritual , so be it. Yet if one lives in ignorance ( up to one's finger nails) does it matter what garb one wears, what one wears on the forehead ? These things are all well and good , but we cannot confuse the ride for the destination


With all these these things we wear ( sajja¹) we still are ~wearing~ or being owned by the body (śarīra¹). This is what the wise have been telling us for eons - you are not this transitory body that comes-and-goes. You are stainless, infinite and whole.


iti śivaṁ



words

ācchādaka - concealing , hiding

vaiṣṇava - a worshipper of viṣṇu

ātmamukhaṃ - turned towards one own Self

sajja - dress; decoration


śarīra - that which easily perishes; one's body i.e. one's own person

markandeya 108 dasa
05 July 2014, 04:50 AM
Pranams Eastern Mind


I totally get the no-Hindu allowed policy

I am sorry but I just dont get it, it makes no sense what so ever. I can sympothise with it and I understand the reasons.

I lived and travelled all around India for 5 years, I have been to many holy places from north to south, east to west to central. The majority of Temples allow anyone and have no problem.

I dont know where in Shastra is says that a particular race of indigenous people own the Lord.

Shastra is to be free from teh bodily conception of life.

England has been invaded many times and has changed rulers many times, one being the Normans

Should I have any personal bias against the modern day French people, only if I am in total ignorance would this be valid.

Ys

Md

Eastern Mind
05 July 2014, 08:49 AM
Vannakkam: Firstly, I meant no nonHindu, not no Hindu. Restrictions to groups within religion has been going on for a long time. Non Catholics can't receive communion, non Brahmins aren't allowed in moolasthanams, nonMormons, and Mormons not living up to standards cannot enter their temples. The list goes on. In countries it's similar, and simple things like barring people with criminal records get people turned around from the border gates.

The reasons are similar ... keep the inside pure, others out. Hindu temples are by law, private places. If a devotee comes drunk or disorderly, the temple authorities have every right, just as private citizen has, to boot them out. If a temple board has decided to ban people with mustaches, so be it. There are many temples in South India where men must remove shirts. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Obey the laws of the country you're in, whether you agree with them or not. If not, it can get you in a ton of trouble.

So why are non-Hindus even wanting to go into a Hindu temple? Mostly it's curiousity, but it could also be other reasons, like terrorism, desecration, etc. Besides that, the definition of who is a Hindu varies a ton. Although I may not agree with a really stict enforcement, UI respect the right for a temple to put it there, and there are several good reasons for asking non-Hindus to stay away. Deciding who is or ho isn't is a very tricky matter.

Aum Namasivaya

aupmanyav
08 July 2014, 09:05 AM
Deciding who is or ho isn't is a very tricky matter.Jai Ram ji ki, :)

Yes, it is tricky. Sometimes, the only way is to ask the person if he/she is a hindu and accept his/her answer as correct.

Mystical Soul
12 October 2014, 06:09 PM
Greetings
Wow I can really relate to this one. I am a black American and I have gotten several comments from other blacks that "I know better that that", or the whole "false religion" concept.

Many of them give me a "polite toleration", kind of like OK, we will humor you until you come to your senses.

Interestingly, I have not noticed any reactions from Indians which could have to do with skin color. However when they try to talk to me it is blatantly obvious that my accent is American.

Coming from a black culture though I am aware of how I present to attend temple. Blacks still wear suits and ties to church in many cases. Although that is western culture, a kurthi shirt and nice slacks are worn by many Shavite men and I do likewise. Women wear saries and I feel men should also look reverent. I save my jeans and sweat shirts for picnics and such.

I wear an AUM necklace around my neck all the time. I have gotten compliments from Indians and two non Indians asked me what it was. When I explained it, one was aghast and the other just gave me the "polite toleration" look.

I got started in Hare Krishna but feel much more spiritually drawn to Shiva. However the HK are where I get the most general teachings because they are geared to speaking English.

I am more peaceful now than I have been in years and I think it has to do with having found Lord Shiva. People will get used to it. When I started going to AA 25 years ago some of my drinking buddies thought is was a phase. When I started dating my other race wife of 15 years some thought it a phase. I guess most people don't like social change as much as other types of changes. It requires a sort of brain rewire. I guess most of us are comfy with the social status quo.

Believer
20 October 2014, 10:32 AM
Namaste,


Sometimes, the only way is............

If something is true sometimes, then it is not the only way,
If it is the only way, then it cannot be true sometimes; has to be true all the time! :)

Pranam.

ramak31
30 December 2016, 11:08 PM
Namaste, I just joined this forum. You are very much right "Patience" will pay off. Hinduism itself is a religion where tolerance is it's virtue and is sustaining due to tolerance despite brutal islamic invasions lasting centuries.

I also have one point. If you want to be comfortable to be accepted as Hindu, you need to interact with genuine seekers or devotees from Bharat. They may be rare but they are always there. They will look at you only as an Aatman trying to realize God through Hindu philosophy and they will be willing to help you in any way. Actually, I am one such person. You could find such souls in many organizations like ISKCON, Art Of Living, Isha Yoga, SSRF, Arsha Vidya Gurukulam etc. Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh has now some 100 branches across USA and Canada and there are many good souls there willing to accept and give a sense of comfort seekers/devotees from outside Bharat. I myself am ready to assist in any way. I am aged 50, father of two children living here in Phoenix and working for American Airlines and I am practicing Hindu with daily prayers, chantings, reading etc.

ramak31
30 December 2016, 11:11 PM
Namaste, I just joined this forum. So, I thought I shall reply even though this thread is old.

If you want to be comfortable to be accepted as Hindu, you need to interact with genuine seekers or devotees from Bharat. They may be rare but they are always there. They will look at you only as an Aatman trying to realize God through Hindu philosophy and they will be willing to help you in any way. Actually, I am one such person. You could find such souls in many organizations like ISKCON, Art Of Living, Isha Yoga, SSRF, Arsha Vidya Gurukulam etc. Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh has now some 100 branches across USA and Canada and there are many good souls there willing to accept and give a sense of comfort seekers/devotees from outside Bharat. I myself am ready to assist in any way. I am aged 50, father of two children living here in Phoenix and working for American Airlines and I am practicing Hindu with daily prayers, chantings, reading etc.

Believer
15 January 2017, 01:24 PM
Namaste,


..... Hinduism itself is a religion where tolerance is it's virtue and is sustaining due to tolerance despite brutal islamic invasions lasting centuries.
Tolerance is confused with being a doormat by many Hindus. Gita's prime message is to fight Adharma. When you have no spine to fight adhrama and pretend to be tolerant, the adharmic forces annihilate you. Look at all the land lost to Islamic forces - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and the hundreds of millions of Hindus forcibly converted to Islam. By some estimates, 100 million Hindus were killed over the period that muslims invaded and ruled India - that is the biggest genocide in the history of mankind. Even now India has a 15+% muslim population which is growing every second. Some day, Hinduism will exist only among the Hindus living outside of India. Burying one's head in the sand and being a doormat in the name of "tolerance" is just being docile and letting the adharmic forces win.

Pranam.

Seeker
17 January 2017, 04:07 PM
Namaste,


Tolerance is confused with being a doormat by many Hindus. Gita's prime message is to fight Adharma. When you have no spine to fight adhrama and pretend to be tolerant, the adharmic forces annihilate you. Look at all the land lost to Islamic forces - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and the hundreds of millions of Hindus forcibly converted to Islam. By some estimates, 100 million Hindus were killed over the period that muslims invaded and ruled India - that is the biggest genocide in the history of mankind. Even now India has a 15+% muslim population which is growing every second. Some day, Hinduism will exist only among the Hindus living outside of India. Burying one's head in the sand and being a doormat in the name of "tolerance" is just being docile and letting the adharmic forces win.

Pranam.


Reminds me of a story told by Ramakrishna Paramahamsa

"In a village, there lived a huge Naag (hooded snake). The path where it lived was narrow; so it was difficult for people to walk past. One day, a Brahmachari Maharaj came that way. People stopped him and warned him about the Naag. They told him that it was even more poisonous than Vasuki, the king serpent. The Brahmachari Maharaj replied that he wasn’t scared of any snake, as he possessed a mantra that would calm the snake. As he went along, he was greeted by the hiss of the hooded serpent. With the help of the mantra, he managed to calm the snake down. The snake told the Brahmachari, ‘I have never seen a man like you, and I bow down to you. Please make me your disciple. And before you go, please give me a ‘Diksha Mantra’.’ The Brahmachari agreed to initiate the snake but on one condition. It was that the serpent would have to give up biting after it started the recitation of the japa. The snake agreed to give up biting people. Both went their own ways. A year later, the Brahmachari Maharaj visited that area again. He found that children were playing on the path, close to the snake’s habitat, totally unafraid of the snake. The Brahmachari asked the children, ‘Are you not scared of the Naag?’ The children said, ‘Who will be scared of that snake who doesn’t bite anymore. We pulled him by the tail, broke his back, and put him back in his hole. You can go and see for yourself.’ The Brahmachari peeped down the hole and called out to the snake: ‘Where are you, Naag Maharaj?’ The snake replied, ‘I’m down here waiting for you, Guruji.’ The Guruji asked him to come up. The snake replied that he couldn’t, as his back was broken. ‘Look what has become of me ever since I stopped biting. I wanted to find Moksh (salvation) but instead broke my back!’ The Brahmachari comforted the snake telling him that he would set it all right. He then told him, ‘Silly fellow. All I said was don’t bite. But did I ask you to stop hissing as well?’"

Indialover
18 January 2017, 02:39 AM
Namaste

Just read in Madhva’s Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, chapter 22, a dialog between Draupadi, Yudhishthira and Bhima.

Bhima asked Draupadi to talk to Dharmaraja and keep his spirit to fight the Kauravas after thirteen years. If he is isolated for such a long time from the thought of the harm done to us by Kauravas, he may become indifferent to the kingdom. Draupadi went to Dharmaraja and told him that tolerance is not a virtue in respect of evil persons. If the king is tolerant even with evil persons the good people will suffer. It is said that dharma protects a person if he protects dharma. But in your case dharma did not protect you. Duryodhana does not care for dharma but he is prospering. This makes me to loose the faith in the very dharma. It is true that the God manages everything. However man's effort is also necessary. If man has nothing to do with his undertakings, then, the vidhi and nishedha i.e., 'do' and 'do not' prescribed in Veda will loose their meaning. Dharmaraja listened to these arguments of Draupadi and said these are empty arguments. The man is not independent in his undertakings; He is regulated by God in all matters. God is the independent agent. Every one else is under his control. Man should undertake his activities with this awareness. He should respond to Vidhi and nisheda as God's command. Then, Bhima also joined this discussion. He agreed with Dharmaraja that God is all in all. One had to realize both the facts that Jiva has to do his duties but also be aware that he is not independent. Only such a person who knows both these aspects can function better and do his duty. One should not arrogate Svatantrakartritva for himself or akartritva. Jiva functions on the basis of his Yogyata, anadikarma and prayatna. These three are under the control of God. He is independent, he is supreme. He guides the Jivas taking into account these factors. He has no partiality or cruelty. With this background Bhimasena explains Varnadharmas, particularly, Rajadharm. He concludes by saying that dice play is not a dharma. Therefore he can take back our kingdom.

In Pandava Gita Duryodhana says
I know what is right but I am not able to practice it; I know what is wrong and I am not able to keep away from it. I act as I am directed to by some mysterious power that is seated in my heart. I am but a machine, Oh Madhusudana! As I am a machine, so you are the one who runs this machine. Please forgive the faults of this machine! Please do not blame me for what I do!

Pranam