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Believer
12 August 2010, 10:09 AM
One of the tenets of ISKCON, as I understand, is that the Guru will lead you back to Krishnaloka when you leave this earth.

This concept has bothered me for the longest time for two reasons:

1. People who were born into families who have been Hindus from the day Hinduism came into being, will not be going to Krishnaloka if they are not formally initiated into the Gaudiya Vaishanava Sapmpradaye. They have not accumulated enough Karmic points to be liberated just because they did not subscribe to a specific tradition.

2. The devotees who converted and were initiated into ISKCON, somehow get to be at the head of the line to go to Krishnaloka. Many of these devotees, no doubt, are very sincere in their practices, but they have a spiritual name ONLY within the confines of their association circle. To the outside world, they are still Scott or Kathy or whatever their original name was. They have not completely severed their ties with, and their influences from the environment they came from.

Are centuries of successive births into Hindu families and following Hindu way of life trumped by a Johnny come lately who goes through a debauchery of sex, drugs, alcohol during his teen years, then converts, gets initiated and follows Vaishanava way of life for few years in this lifetime? Are all bad Karmic reactions from all of his previous lifetimes and the current life overlooked, just because he followed this Sampradaye for few years? This exclusivity leaves me speechless.

When we go out into the world and talk about Krishna consciousness even to Hindus, we find ourselves at a loss to explain some concepts. And this is one of them. Any comments from the ISKCON devotees?

upasaka
12 August 2010, 11:34 AM
Are centuries of successive births into Hindu families and following Hindu way of life trumped by a Johnny come lately who goes through a debauchery of sex, drugs, alcohol during his teen years, then converts, gets initiated and follows Vaishanava way of life for few years in this lifetime? Are all bad Karmic reactions from all of his previous lifetimes and the current life overlooked, just because he followed this Sampradaye for few years? This exclusivity leaves me speechless.



Well, I am not ISKCON (I am Buddhist) but I would like to address just one point here. How do you know that the "Johnny" in question did not spend centuries of successive births in Hindu families before his present one? My point being that it is hard to comment on what someone's past karma was like unless one is enlightened and therefore able to see the chain of existence and know a being's past and future births.

Ramakrishna
12 August 2010, 03:27 PM
Namaste Believer,

I am not a member of ISKCON but I seriously considered joining them once. This is one of the things I disagree with them on. It reminds me too much of the Christian concept of accepting Jesus as your savior and all your sins are forgiven just like that. Of course, it's not the same exact thing but it's similar.

It is extremely difficult to know what our past karma was, and because of that we can never be 100% positive that we will attain moksha at the end of this lifetime. The Johnny in your example who goes through sex, drugs, alcohol, and a general immoral lifestyle for a number of years has accumulated lots of "bad" karma. He has set himself far back on the path of moksha. Yet, when he converts or adopts Vaishnavism, he has set himself forward on that track and accumulates lots of "good" karma. Maybe he has even accumulated enough "good" karma to offset all the "bad" karma that he accrued earlier in his life. Yet, how are we to know what his karma was like from past lives? Maybe he still has to accumulate a lot more "good" karma to offset many bad deeds in his prior lives. I don't think simply adopting Hinduism for a few years can erase all bad karmic reactions that he has accumulated over many many lives.

But as upasaka said, maybe he lived as a Hindu for many of his previous lives, and just had a little bit of "bad" karma to live out in this life. The point is we don't know, and because of that we should always strive to live a dharmic life and never be certain that we will attain moksha after this lifetime.

(I put "good" and "bad" in quotes because there is really no "good karma" or "bad karma", but just karma. But for the sake of simplifying things, that is what they are commonly called.)

Jai Sri Krishna

Believer
12 August 2010, 05:18 PM
Thanks Upasaka and RamaKrishna. I did not think about the unfortunate Johnny having been a Hindu in all his previous births and have accumulated enough "good karma" to qualify for a journey back to Krishnaloka. That was a good catch.

I was holding my breath till I got an official ISKCON position on this issue, but now I am exhaling. I am liable to die before the answer comes along. ;)

upasaka
12 August 2010, 05:45 PM
Thanks Upasaka and RamaKrishna. I did not think about the unfortunate Johnny having been a Hindu in all his previous births and have accumulated enough "good karma" to qualify for a journey back to Krishnaloka. That was a good catch.



It is difficult for us to discern the pattern of kamma in ordinary situations. This is why meditation is important for it can lead to the insight necessary to see the chain of kammic existence. As a Buddhist, I believe that the Buddha and Arahants are able to see this and know an individual's past and future births.

Your post does bring up an interesting point, however. Does practicing bhakti eliminate the need to observe morality? My answer is no.

Believer
12 August 2010, 05:57 PM
Does practicing bhakti eliminate the need to observe morality?

I guess I am missing something in this question.

Practicing Bhakti means to serve the Lord, to follow the code of conduct laid down by Him and to be in constant rememberance (consciousness) of Him. With this is mind, how could one do anything immoral and practice Bhakti at the same time? They seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

upasaka
12 August 2010, 06:13 PM
I guess I am missing something in this question.

Practicing Bhakti means to serve the Lord, to follow the code of conduct laid down by Him and to be in constant rememberance (consciousness) of Him. With this is mind, how could one do anything immoral and practice Bhakti at the same time? They seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

What I had in mind were some things that I have read in ISKCON materials suggesting that the demons killed by Krishna were liberated because of their intense focus upon him. In other words, immorality of the demons was nullified by their one-pointedness upon Krishna. Obiviously, the demons were not engaged in bhakti; but, this would suggest that one could be "devoted" and immoral.

This probably belongs in its own thread so feel free to ignore this. My apologies for getting off topic. :) You asked some interesting questions in your OP and you deserve on-topic responses.

orlando
12 August 2010, 06:18 PM
Hare Krishna!

Before reading my post,please note that my English(which isn't my mother tongue) is very bad.

Although I am a gaudiya-vaishnava and I read Srila Prabhupada's books and ISKCON sites,I don't identify my-self as a follower of ISKCON.
I will accept as my guru even someone who belongs to Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math or to other gaudiya-vaishnava organizazion(or even to no organization at all...).

In this forum there is something I find very strange(admin Satay please forgive me for my sincerity):it looks like everyone here belevies that Gaudiya-Vaishnvism is only ISKCON.
Why a section only for ISKCON?
If you have to make a section for an organization,then why didn't you create a section even for Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math and other gaudiya-vaishnava organizations?

Folks,please note that you don't need at all to follow ISKCON to be a true gaudiya-vaishnava.

It is true that ISKCON is a very good train who bring us back to Godhead.But it isn't the only train who does such thing.


One of the tenets of ISKCON, as I understand, is that the Guru will lead you back to Krishnaloka when you leave this earth.

ISKCON teaches that Diksha(initiation) destroys all the karma of the disciple.

I noted that another gaudiya-vaishnava organization who is found in my own contry seem to not believe in such teaching.

By the way,please note that a true guru is a jivan-mukta:a liberated soul although he is still inside his material body.
A liberated person has the power to liberate others people.
A guru is one who may free his disciple from the bondage of material existence.
A guru is able to do his duty:take the disciple back to Godhead.


1. People who were born into families who have been Hindus from the day Hinduism came into being, will not be going to Krishnaloka if they are not formally initiated into the Gaudiya Vaishanava Sapmpradaye. They have not accumulated enough Karmic points to be liberated just because they did not subscribe to a specific tradition.

Please note that in order to go back to Krishna's Kingdom you have to burn all the karma:not only the good karma.

Srila Prabhupada teached that a pure devote of Lord Krishna acts on a trascendental plane,so he/she is free from (both good and bad) karma.


2. The devotees who converted and were initiated into ISKCON, somehow get to be at the head of the line to go to Krishnaloka. Many of these devotees, no doubt, are very sincere in their practices, but they have a spiritual name ONLY within the confines of their association circle. To the outside world, they are still Scott or Kathy or whatever their original name was. They have not completely severed their ties with, and their influences from the environment they came from.

Chancing legally one's name is not necessary al all to achieve pure devotion and freedon from the cycle of births and death.

Your servant,
Bhakta Orlando.

Believer
12 August 2010, 07:21 PM
Many thanks for your post, Bhakta Orlando.




Before reading my post,please note that my English(which isn't my mother tongue) is very bad.

I am looking for answers from a spiritual being. So, don't worry at all about your English. I can comprehend everything that you have written.


ISKCON teaches that Diksha(initiation) destroys all the karma of the disciple.

By the way,please note that a true guru is a jivan-mukta:a liberated soul although he is still inside his material body.
A liberated person has the power to liberate others people.
A guru is one who may free his disciple from the bondage of material existence.
A guru is able to do his duty:take the disciple back to Godhead.

Now I understand.
But here is the problem: in the last issue of Back to Godhead magzine from ISKCON, there is an article by a loving devotee of Srila Prabhupad on the topic of Diksha without Tapa. In this he goes to great lengths to explain that in their desire to have more devotees under them, some ISKCON gurus are ignoring the concept of Tapa (which is not very palatable to Western devotees) and initiating large numbers of devotees into the Samparadaye without them fulfilling the requirement of Tapa. The result is that you have lot of new initiated devotees with a spiritual name ending in Dasa; but with no change of heart, no desire for spiritual advancement and no desire to do Tapa. This is degrading the high standards set by Srila Praphupad. Additionally, the gurus who would initiate devotees without proper Tapa, are themselves not liberated souls and are incapable of helping anyone. So, the whole thing becomes a sham.

People (gurus) who are not liberated souls and have no spiritual powers are giving Diksha and initiating devotees without proper Tapa, who in turn have no desire for spiritual advancement. They are all CHEATING the Lord. No, I take that back, you can't cheat the Lord. They THINK that they are cheating the Lord and will get away with it.



Chancing legally one's name is not necessary at all to achieve pure devotion and freedom from the cycle of births and death.

In ISKCON, every initiation means a commitment to Krishna and is accompanied with a new spiritual name. That is the name which everyone uses for them in the temple. Outside, they could be whatever they were before, and continue to use their original birth name. So they do make a distinction, that when you are associating with other devotees, or are serving the Lord in the temple, you must be this new person with the new name ending in Dasa.

I do not in way mean to disrespect the Guadiya Vaishnava Sampradaye. It is an exceptionally good moral order. I am just trying to understand the basis of their tenets and point out what they themselves are saying about the misuse of initiation procedure.

Believer
13 August 2010, 10:05 AM
Just wanted to stress that my post is no way meant to be disrespectful to ISKCON. It is just that people tend to ask lot of questions, and many times I find I find myself speechless; either because I don't know the reason for a tenet, or the explanation I have is not strong enough. My post was to be able to overcome these deficiencies, when talking to people about ISKCON. The more information I have, the more forcefully can I defend it. I hope some of the devotees would address the issues raised. All glories to Srila Prabhupad.

Regards.

charlebs
30 August 2010, 09:50 AM
Namaste Believer,

I am not a member of ISKCON but I seriously considered joining them once. This is one of the things I disagree with them on. It reminds me too much of the Christian concept of accepting Jesus as your savior and all your sins are forgiven just like that. Of course, it's not the same exact thing but it's similar.

It is extremely difficult to know what our past karma was, and because of that we can never be 100% positive that we will attain moksha at the end of this lifetime. The Johnny in your example who goes through sex, drugs, alcohol, and a general immoral lifestyle for a number of years has accumulated lots of "bad" karma. He has set himself far back on the path of moksha. Yet, when he converts or adopts Vaishnavism, he has set himself forward on that track and accumulates lots of "good" karma. Maybe he has even accumulated enough "good" karma to offset all the "bad" karma that he accrued earlier in his life. Yet, how are we to know what his karma was like from past lives? Maybe he still has to accumulate a lot more "good" karma to offset many bad deeds in his prior lives. I don't think simply adopting Hinduism for a few years can erase all bad karmic reactions that he has accumulated over many many lives.

But as upasaka said, maybe he lived as a Hindu for many of his previous lives, and just had a little bit of "bad" karma to live out in this life. The point is we don't know, and because of that we should always strive to live a dharmic life and never be certain that we will attain moksha after this lifetime.

(I put "good" and "bad" in quotes because there is really no "good karma" or "bad karma", but just karma. But for the sake of simplifying things, that is what they are commonly called.)

Jai Sri KrishnaI personally don't believe you can erase your bad karma by attaining more good karma. karma is like tax, you always have to pay the toll. it's action which always has a reaction. no matter in what time you live. karma always follows your actions.
of course it can be taken away but only if you have gained self realization I think.