PDA

View Full Version : Liberation



Tirisilex
12 August 2010, 04:05 PM
I just got done reading "The Practice of Perfection" by Swami Prabhupada.

In the last chapter it talks about 5 different types of Liberation. One of these is looked upon as suicide and thus not encouraged at all.. It's called Sayujya.

The other four are accepted. They are Sarupya, Salokya, Sarsti, and Samipya
Out of all of these I find Samipya (To remain with God as a close friend.) to be the most attractive..

My question is.. Does Advaita Vedanta accept multiple forms of Liberation like those I listed?

saidevo
12 August 2010, 11:13 PM
namaste Tirisilex.

My first thoughts on the question is:

I can understand why sAyujya-mukti--merging with the One Reality, is considered suicidal to ISKCONites and other non-Advaitins. Advaita recognizes only this type of mukti which can be attained here and now.

Although non-Advaitins dread sAyujya-mukti, it is always here and now to stay; and the non-Advaitins do have a peep into it at the peak of their bhakti--devotion (although they may not accept it as such).

Ironically, shrI KRShNa says in the GItA 2.20: "The primeval one is unborn, eternal and permanent." And yet the non-Advaitins would only be content with the 'primeval one' of their jIvas being different from the ParamAtman.

In one sense, however, since Advaita is all-inclusive (that is, of everything in the karma, bhakti and jnAna yoga), and bhakti is an inherent part of it, we may say that the other types of mukti--liberation, are also attained, by a jIvan mukta--liberated while living, when he gives an appearance of going about his worldly life.

For example, when KAnchi ParamAchArya performed his extensive pUjAs and niyama-anuShTAnas with the utmost shraddha--sincerity, he certainly passed through the other types of mukti, although his Self was firmly routed at all times in the sAyujya reality of turIya.

atanu
13 August 2010, 10:57 AM
I just got done reading "The Practice of Perfection" by Swami Prabhupada.

In the last chapter it talks about 5 different types of Liberation. One of these is looked upon as suicide and thus not encouraged at all.. It's called Sayujya.



Dear Tirisilex

Whether one likes or not, the following is destined:

Ahamaatmaa gudaakesha sarvabhootaashayasthitah;
Ahamaadishcha madhyam cha bhootaanaamanta eva cha.


BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings



Om Namah Shivaya

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 11:05 AM
The Path of Perfection says that death will come to all on the lower planets but on Krishnas Spiritual Planet Goloka there is no death.

atanu
13 August 2010, 11:13 AM
We have three bodies that make us bhuta atman. The sthula, the physical body, which occupies a little space. We have sukshma sarira, the mental body, which occupies space as far as the mind goes. We have, karana sarira, the causal body, which is infinifinite, homogeneous, just as in deep sleep. But in this causal body are embedded our deepest desires which make us the particular being that we are as bhutama- the elemental self.

Desires gone, the causality goes.

But shastra, such as Brihadaraynaka upanishad clarify that there are forces that want bhutatma to remain so. Else who will do their bidding? Some say that it is as per the will of Ishwara. But again scripture negates this. The manifestations do not enter the immutable Self, but only because of powers of Ishwara, the jivas are deluded.

Here the free will comes into play. To believe the following or to disregard it.

BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
13 August 2010, 11:22 AM
The Path of Perfection says that death will come to all on the lower planets but on Krishnas Spiritual Planet Goloka there is no death.

Namaste

The death, from which one is reborn, is the prakriti of Self-Brahman.

Death, from which one does not return is Self alone. But how can the Self die?

You can check the above from Gita.

Om Namah Shivaya

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 11:23 AM
Atanu.. You lost me.. I haven't got a clue as to what exactly you are saying.

Sorry for my Ignorance..

atanu
13 August 2010, 11:32 AM
Atanu.. You lost me.. I haven't got a clue as to what exactly you are saying.

Sorry for my Ignorance..

Tirisilex

I am sorry for jumping -- as in my wont. IMO, only thing that is important at this stage, in this thread (wherein a question about sayujja mukti was raised) is,

BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

I repeat that whether one likes or not, the end of the being (bhutatma) is destined.

Om Namah Shivaya

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 12:18 PM
So what is the point of Liberation? If we are gonna meet an end no matter what.. then why? When I read BG 10:20 I take it as.. He is the End of all that lives within this Material world.. and not in "the spiritual" This is My HO.

Onkara
13 August 2010, 12:58 PM
So what is the point of Liberation? If we are gonna meet an end no matter what.. then why? When I read BG 10:20 I take it as.. He is the End of all that lives within this Material world.. and not in "the spiritual" This is My HO.
Good question, Tirisilex
Isn't the point of liberation the relief from our suffering; from the problems we face as individuals such as anger, attachment, jealousy, greed, lust, pride etc.

The way I see this quote is that He is unavoidable. It is our own mind which causes us to fall victim of these negative attributes and suffer. He just continues to witness the whole cycle of our life.

Why did and do you turn to Sri Krishna? :)

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 01:11 PM
About 5 years ago I had a Vision of Krishna in my Living room.. He said to me that he would never judge me nor would he dictate to me on how to live my life.. He would let me grow at my own pace. After this I went to the Boston Mass. ISKCON to ask if it was an authentic experience.. They told me it was..
Although I dont consider myself as a "ISKCON" follower I do believe in Krishna and I am really interested in Advaita Vedanta.. because of it's "psychology"

I hope this answers your question..

atanu
13 August 2010, 01:14 PM
So what is the point of Liberation? If we are gonna meet an end no matter what.. then why? When I read BG 10:20 I take it as.. He is the End of all that lives within this Material world.. and not in "the spiritual" This is My HO.

Namaste Tirisilex

WRT the red part

I have already said that this end which makes one to come back is in the prakriti (nature of self) and not in the Self. Coming back means living again and again -- an aspect on which you now have more interest (as will be evident below). In other words you seem to have more interest in dying again and again.

WRT the blue part

Who are these 'we'?? At present isn't your interest more intense towards continuation of this 'we'? That is your intense interest is towards continuation of this world. Isn't it? This continuation of the world means dying again and again.


Why is one dismayed at the prospect of vanishing of this 'we' stage? Then does Brahman, who is said to be one and all, has reason to be dismayed that He is not an individual like you or me and never dies?


Although I dont consider myself as a "ISKCON" follower I do believe in Krishna and I am really interested in Advaita Vedanta.. because of it's "psychology"

That is correct. Because of your interest in advaita and love of Krishna, i am pointing you to Krishna's teaching as below:

BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

-----------------
I do not know whether i make any sense to you or not, therefore i request you to come back to this a few times more.


Om Namah Shivaya

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 01:21 PM
BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

Krishna also says in the Gita that all beings have no beginning or end but are eternal...so is he contradicting himself?

No he is not, I also believe he is referring to beings in their 'manifested state' in this jada-prakriti.

Gita 2.28: Beings are unmanifest in the beginning, manifest in the middle and unmanifest in their end.

namaskar

atanu
13 August 2010, 01:58 PM
BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

Krishna also says in the Gita that all beings have no beginning or end but are eternal...so is he contradicting himself?

No he is not, I also believe he is referring to beings in their 'manifested state' in this jada-prakriti.

Gita 2.28: Beings are unmanifest in the beginning, manifest in the middle and unmanifest in their end.
namaskar

Good post Jogesh


I wish to clarify a point. There are three levels

vaykta: manifest -- the waking world.

avyakta: the Unmanifest, moola prakriti, wherein jivas die and are re-born again and again

akshara avaykta (which is also called avvyaya - imperishable): the imperishable unmanifest, which is the highest goal from where one does not return.

The above three levels are decribed below.




8.18 Avyaktaadvyaktayah sarvaah prabhavantyaharaagame;
Raatryaagame praleeyante tatraivaavyaktasamjnake.

8.18. From the unmanifested all the manifested (worlds) proceed at the coming of the “day”; at the coming of the “night” they dissolve verily into that alone which is called the unmanifested.

8.19 Bhootagraamah sa evaayam bhootwaa bhootwaa praleeyate;
Raatryaagame’vashah paartha prabhavatyaharaagame.

8.19. This same multitude of beings, born again and again, is dissolved, helplessly, O Arjuna, (into the unmanifested) at the coming of the night, and comes forth at the coming of the day!

8.20 Parastasmaat tu bhaavo’nyo’vyakto’vyaktaatsanaatanah;
Yah sa sarveshu bhooteshu nashyatsu na vinashyati.

8.20. But verily there exists, higher than the unmanifested, another unmanifested Eternal who is not destroyed when all beings are destroyed.

8.21 Avyakto’kshara ityuktastamaahuh paramaam gatim;
Yam praapya na nivartante taddhaama paramam mama.

8.21. What is called the Unmanifested and the Imperishable, That they say is the highest goal (path). They who reach It do not return (to this cycle of births and deaths). That is My highest abode (place or state).



The repeated birth/death occurs when the end occurs in Prakriti (in the unmanifest).



9.7 Sarvabhootaani kaunteya prakritim yaanti maamikaam;
Kalpakshaye punastaani kalpaadau visrijaamyaham.

9.7. All beings, O Arjuna, enter into My Nature at the end of a Kalpa; I send them forth again at the beginning of (the next) Kalpa!

9.8 Prakritim swaamavashtabhya visrijaami punah punah;
Bhootagraamamimam kritsnamavasham prakritervashaat.

9.8. Animating My Nature, I again and again send forth all this multitude of beings, helpless by the force of Nature.


But, finally, Moksha means freedom from karma bandhan, which is described below:




9.28 Shubhaashubhaphalairevam mokshyase karmabandhanaih;
Sannyaasayogayuktaatmaa vimukto maamupaishyasi.

9.28. Thus shalt thou be freed from the bonds of actions yielding good and evil fruits; with the mind steadfast in the Yoga of renunciation, and liberated, thou shalt come unto Me.

9.34 Manmanaa bhava madbhakto madyaajee maam namaskuru;
Maamevaishyasi yuktwaivamaatmaanam matparaayanah.

9.34. Fix thy mind on Me; be devoted to Me; sacrifice unto Me; bow down to Me; having thus united thy whole self with Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt verily come unto Me.


Having united the whole self, what remains? Even if one fails to do so, the following is inevitable:

BG 10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

Comparing 10.20 (above) and 8.20 (below) reveal that destruction of bhuta occurs in akshara avyakta and not in avaykta.

8.20 Parastasmaat tu bhaavo’nyo’vyakto’vyaktaatsanaatanah;
Yah sa sarveshu bhooteshu nashyatsu na vinashyati.

8.20. But verily there exists, higher than the unmanifested, another unmanifested Eternal who is not destroyed when all beings are destroyed.


Om Namah Shivaya


In summary, destruction of bhutatma and non-return is in akshara avaykata (highest imperishable unmanifest). The dissolution in avaykta (unmanifest prakriti) leads to repeated birth and deaths.

Om Namah Shivaya

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 02:13 PM
Sooo.. There is a state that is imperishable?

Kumar_Das
13 August 2010, 02:18 PM
Atanu.. You lost me.. I haven't got a clue as to what exactly you are saying.

Sorry for my Ignorance..

Same here.

atanu
13 August 2010, 02:37 PM
Sooo.. There is a state that is imperishable?

Namaste Trisilex

Why Sooo? Of course, Prakriti and the bhutatma seeds therein, do not arise due to vacuum. They arise due to imperishable unmanifest. Imperishable unmanifest is also called the Immutable Turya, which is not touched by any bhutatma, because:

8.20. But verily there exists, higher than the unmanifested, another unmanifested Eternal who is not destroyed when all beings are destroyed.

And

10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.


This is the beginning and the end of all beings and this state is called neither a being nor a non being. The whole discussion started with sayujjya, which is not a suicide but an inevitabilty.


Om Namah Shivaya

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 02:48 PM
So.. Explain to me Goloka Vrndavana (Krishnaloka)

atanu
13 August 2010, 02:58 PM
So.. Explain to me Goloka Vrndavana (Krishnaloka)

Kindly show me this term from Gita or from sruti so that i can relate. As far as i understand, this world, which is like a sphere is a goloka (gol -- spherical).

Om Namah Shivaya

Eastern Mind
13 August 2010, 03:30 PM
Vannakkam Tirisilex:

Liberation, in my understanding, is beyond words. There are no words that can describe it. It is a waste of time to try to construct a rational theory or understanding. Only those who are liberated souls can understand, and it isn't through the intellect or books. Its through many many years of dedicated sadhanas and meditation via the guidance of a realised Satguru. So the endless circles of debate lead to confusion and argument. Many of the above posts seem to lend credence to my POV here.

Sorry for the interruption. Continue on. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Aum Namasivaya

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 03:41 PM
atanu,

I'm still looking in my BG to answer your last question.. However what it sounds like to me is that you are speaking of absolute annihilation of all existence including God.. I could be very much getting the wrong Idea of what you are saying it just sounds this way to me..

Ganeshprasad
13 August 2010, 03:51 PM
Pranam Atanu ji


Kindly show me this term from Gita or from sruti so that i can relate. As far as i understand, this world, which is like a sphere is a goloka (gol -- spherical).

Om Namah Shivaya

na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama

The sun does not illumine there, nor the moon, nor the fire. That is My supreme abode. Having reached there they do not come back. (15.06)

now there is no direct reference 'Goloka Vrndavana' in Gita,for that you will have to read srimad Bhagvat, or Shiv puran to read about Shiva's abode Kailash.
Since Lord Krishna mentions his supreme abode it is not difficult to make the connection.



Jai Shree Krishna

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 04:03 PM
oops double post

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 04:09 PM
Goloka is defined as Krishnas Supreme Abode.

8:21 Supreme abode is called manifested and infallible and is the supreme destination. When one goes there they never come back.

8:13 After being situated in this yoga practice and veibrating the sacred syllable Om. The one who thinks on the supreme personality of Godhead and quits his body will certainly reach the "Spiritual" planets

There are Spiritual Planets and then there is Material Planets.

16:8 From the Highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and misery and death take place. But who attains to my abode O Son of Kunti never takes Birth again.

There is suffering in the Material but not the spiritual.. I think 8:13 and 16:8 explains Goloka even though Goloka isn't Mentioned in the BG it is certainly implied.

The Purports in "The BG as it is" is full of references to Goloka by Name.
I'm thinking maybe the "Srimad Bhagavatams" may have more references to Goloka.

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 05:05 PM
Goloka is defined as Krishnas Supreme Abode.

8:21 Supreme abode is called manifested and infallible and is the supreme destination. When one goes there they never come back.

8:13 After being situated in this yoga practice and veibrating the sacred syllable Om. The one who thinks on the supreme personality of Godhead and quits his body will certainly reach the "Spiritual" planets

There are Spiritual Planets and then there is Material Planets.

16:8 From the Highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and misery and death take place. But who attains to my abode O Son of Kunti never takes Birth again.

There is suffering in the Material but not the spiritual.. I think 8:13 and 16:8 explains Goloka even though Goloka isn't Mentioned in the BG it is certainly implied.

The Purports in "The BG as it is" is full of references to Goloka by Name.
I'm thinking maybe the "Srimad Bhagavatams" may have more references to Goloka.

Tirisilex, Goloka is not 'certainly implied' in those verses from Gita at all, I'm sorry, perhaps Gaudiyas want to believe that, but certainly not other followers of Sanatan Dharma or commentators on Bhagavad Gita.

Also please note that purports are not scriptual reference, but commentary.

namaskar

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 05:13 PM
What do these verses imply then?

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 05:26 PM
The primary scriptural reference for Goloka Vrndavana within the Gaudiya Sampradaya is Sri Brahma Samhita with commentary of Jiva Goswami.

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 05:59 PM
What do these verses imply then?

Krishna says.,"paramam gatim"... the supreme destination"

cant his word be taken at face value?

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 06:14 PM
What is the supreme destination?
16:8 ...But one who attains to my abode (Home) O son of Kunti

Isn't Abode of Krishna.. Goloka?

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 06:50 PM
What is the supreme destination?
16:8 ...But one who attains to my abode (Home) O son of Kunti

Isn't Abode of Krishna.. Goloka?

in this verse Krishna says: mam upetya - means 'taking refuge of me' or 'attains to me'...

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 06:59 PM
8.16 O Arjuna, all the worlds together with the
world of Brahma are subject to return. But, O son
of Kunti, there is no rebirth after reaching Me.


English Translation of Sri Sankaracharya's Bhagavad Gita
~ Swami Gambhirananda

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 07:07 PM
Ok. It's clear that we are working from different translations and Beliefs..
I don't know what to do.. Just go with my Gut feeling?

Is Goloka a real place? Here you say No (Right?) But a ISKCON follower will say yes.. Is this the clash between 2 paths?

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 07:11 PM
Ok. It's clear that we are working from different translations and Beliefs..
I don't know what to do.. Just go with my Gut feeling?

Is Goloka a real place? Here you say No (Right?) But a ISKCON follower will say yes.. Is this the clash between 2 paths?

I would not narrow it down to only 2...

namaskar,

:D

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 07:20 PM
Oh.. more than 2? Tell me if I am wrong.. But is it the Smartist way is to take things here and some from there?

Ekanta
13 August 2010, 08:38 PM
There are different translations and interpretations. But the Bhagavad Gita "as it is" (ISKCON) is the version who (a lot more than other versions) instead of using a word to word translation, exchanges the words to their own philosophy. For example 99% of the time when you read "the supreme personality of Godhead" or "transcendental" you can be sure its not an accurate translation (and you find those words A LOT). And hence... that version can never give an accurate impression of what the Gita actually says.
Now some may not want that, but think its ok anyway. But the fact remains. ISKCON sanskrit-word databas is equally biased. Now this is not necessarily a critic, but I think people should be aware of it.
Either be happy with it, read different versions or best of all, look up the words.

Jogesh
13 August 2010, 09:07 PM
There are different translations and interpretations. But the Bhagavad Gita "as it is" (ISKCON) is the version who (a lot more than other versions) instead of using a word to word translation, exchanges the words to their own philosophy. For example 99% of the time when you read "the supreme personality of Godhead" or "transcendental" you can be sure its not an accurate translation (and you find those words A LOT). And hence... that version can never give an accurate impression of what the Gita actually says.
Now some may not want that, but think its ok anyway. But the fact remains. ISKCON sanskrit-word databas is equally biased. Now this is not necessarily a critic, but I think people should be aware of it.
Either be happy with it, read different versions or best of all, look up the words.

Thank you Ekanta, I for one think using words in translations that are not accurate to make a scripture more in line with ones philosophy is bound to back fire sooner or later.

;)

Tirisilex
13 August 2010, 09:53 PM
I have 3 different versions of the BG.. It was my first time I actually sat down and compared them.. Each one had a almost completely different translation.

How do I know which one to trust?

atanu
14 August 2010, 12:07 AM
I have 3 different versions of the BG.. It was my first time I actually sat down and compared them.. Each one had a almost completely different translation.

How do I know which one to trust?

Namaste Trisilex

You said you were inclined towards advaita but you are trying to understand Krishna, reading Shri Prabhupada. That is a volatile combination, which has very little chance of working out correctly.


I'm still looking in my BG to answer your last question.. However what it sounds like to me is that you are speaking of absolute annihilation of all existence including God.. I could be very much getting the wrong Idea of what you are saying it just sounds this way to me..

Far from it. I am stressing complete annihilation of the idea of ego. It was already explained, that the interpretation will depend on one's perspective

a) whether one loves the view of "I and them and God and Universe" to continue and thus be subject to repeated cycle of birth and death

or

b) whether one is interested whole heartedly to experience the purport of the following verse, which has been often repeated to stress the point:

10. 20 I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

You may choose the world of 'I-Me-They-God-Universe-Goloka' to continuue or you may chose to believe that Self is all this. But the fact is that the beginning, the middle, and the end is the Self alone. This is apparently simple: to believe and let go of all inhibitions arising from ego. But actually it is not. Every second, your ego-mind will raise obstacle.

The talk of travelling to some dhama to attain moksha hides another key teaching:

8.19 Ihaiva tairjitah sargo yeshaam saamye sthitam manah;
Nirdosham hi samam brahma tasmaad brahmani te sthitaah.

5.19. Even here (in this world) birth (everything) is overcome by those whose minds rest in equality; Brahman is spotless indeed and equal; therefore, they are established in Brahman.


So, you may continue to imagine about Goloka etc. or you may just settle down Here and Now -- Ihaiva with the complete faith that the beginning, the middle, the end is Self alone.

---------

To each according to taste. I believe that Advaita and Prabhupada do not go together. If one has taste for Shri Prabhupada then go for it. Do not mix it with advaita.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
14 August 2010, 12:17 AM
I will supplement the above with some examples (borrowed from morning newspaper)

If a wave tries to find water, it will turn out be a difficult task indeed. But if the wave subsides and then tries to find water, it will realise that it is first water and then onle a wave.

If a gold ornament seeks gold, it will eventually learn, it is first gold and then an ornament -- a shape (a design).

Asaram Bapu

atanu
14 August 2010, 12:19 AM
Vannakkam Tirisilex:

Liberation, in my understanding, is beyond words. There are no words that can describe it. It is a waste of time to try to construct a rational theory or understanding. Only those who are liberated souls can understand, and it isn't through the intellect or books. Many of the above posts seem to lend credence to my POV here.

Sorry for the interruption. Continue on. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Aum Namasivaya

Vannakkam EM

But "Brahma Jigyasa Auspicious"? :)


Its through many many years of dedicated sadhanas and meditation via the guidance of a realised Satguru. So the endless circles of debate lead to confusion and argument.

Actually it should be many lives instead of many years. (And about many lives spent by anyone, i at least know nothing).


Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
14 August 2010, 12:55 PM
I will supplement the above with some examples (borrowed from morning newspaper)

If a wave tries to find water, it will turn out be a difficult task indeed. But if the wave subsides and then tries to find water, it will realise that it is first water and then onle a wave.

If a gold ornament seeks gold, it will eventually learn, it is first gold and then an ornament -- a shape (a design).

Asaram Bapu
Sorry Atanuji
I did not get it . Brahman is always there , jeeva may be or may not be there .
Wave exists then the water looses its shape . Ornament exists then gold looses its shape .
Can it be assumed that A vivek is same as Avivek or A saram as Asaram .
:Cool:

atanu
14 August 2010, 01:25 PM
Sorry Atanuji
I did not get it . Brahman is always there , jeeva may be or may not be there.
Namaste Guptaji

I agree.



Wave exists then the water looses its shape . Ornament exists then gold looses its shape.


Do you mean to say that Gold becomes 'Not gold' or Gold loses its Goldness?:headscratch:

Om Namah Shivaya

Tirisilex
14 August 2010, 04:51 PM
I have but a couple of questions.. You say Sayuja-Mukti is the Ultimate Goal?
Do you accept the other four as "Sub" existences? Sarupya-Mukti, Salokya-Mukti, Sarsti-Mukti, and Samipya-Mukti? Or they do not exist at all??

Are there Mundane material worlds and Spiritual worlds to advance to?

I'm just trying to make sense of this stuff.. I just realized because I'm quite ignorant that the "BG as it is" is not the "Divine" Translation and that it's not entirely accurate.. I never sat down with my 3 versions before and compared.
They are quite different (Each of them)

atanu
14 August 2010, 10:24 PM
I have but a couple of questions.. You say Sayuja-Mukti is the Ultimate Goal?
Do you accept the other four as "Sub" existences? Sarupya-Mukti, Salokya-Mukti, Sarsti-Mukti, and Samipya-Mukti? Or they do not exist at all??

Namaste Tirisilex

It has been repeated that Self is the beginning, the middle, and the end of BEINGS. Do we know it? The Self is all the time covered up by 'I-ME-Mine' of all the Beings.

To know the singular unbroken Self underneath these 'I-Me-Mine'-s is the goal. Without experiencing the Self as singlular and as the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings, how will one claim to have attained the goal? Sayujja Mukti alone can reveal this Truth of singular unbroken intelligent Self exisiting supportless, yet that which is support of all beings.

Else all the time Self is veiled by some being or other. (Sayujja does not mean annhilation of all. The Self cannot be annhilated).


Are there Mundane material worlds and Spiritual worlds to advance to?

Brihadaraynaka U. says:

There are only two worlds. This (the world of waking) and That (heaven -- the world of Devas, which is equated to life force). The dream world is the intermediate one.

I prefer the teachings of the Upanishad. But how does it matter? One's goal is to know the Self and not to know the numerous worlds that may come up.


I'm just trying to make sense of this stuff.. I just realized because I'm quite ignorant that the "BG as it is" is not the "Divine" Translation and that it's not entirely accurate.. I never sat down with my 3 versions before and compared.
They are quite different (Each of them)


I believe what Ekanta and Jogesh have opined about Shri Prabhupada's 'As it is'.

But to each according to taste. You must evaluate logically and with devotion to your goal -- and then select the path which is easiest for you. For me, the language of Shri Prabhupada's 'As It is' is mythical that no one has experienced in my environment and that no one can logically prove. That is not for me.

Best Wishes. We have talked enough, I think.

Om Namah Shivaya

purnapragya
15 August 2010, 01:49 AM
So what is the point of Liberation? If we are gonna meet an end no matter what.. then why? When I read BG 10:20 I take it as.. He is the End of all that lives within this Material world.. and not in "the spiritual" This is My HO.
just check this website kamakoti.org,50 divine thought.

kallol
15 August 2010, 03:38 AM
So what is the point of Liberation? If we are gonna meet an end no matter what.. then why? When I read BG 10:20 I take it as.. He is the End of all that lives within this Material world.. and not in "the spiritual" This is My HO.

Dear Tirisilex,

The end point of both material and spiritual world is one. As it is together that forms the entity called God. Only thing is that this God is the superset of all lesser combinations of material and spiritual world.

Ofcourse the route to Him through the material world takes a huge loop (millions and millions years and more) and may not be even complete before the human race perish. This is said in a subtle way in Ramayana when Rishi Viswamitra asks Rama to choose the path to his ashrama : 14 days path or 14 months path. The 14 months path is easy but long and 14 days path is tough but short.

Spiritual path is abstract and tough but is shorter.

This is best understood by looking at the present happenings. India, long back, had hardly much (like other parts of the world) materialistic science but was mature in terms of spiritual knowledge. From there they derived the needs of life by connecting ad networking through the nature. Ayurveda, astronomy, big bang or cyclic nature of universe, timescale, life of universe, the mind, the body, intellect, consciousness, etc all were connected to have a synergic life. With so much of knowledge on harmonic living they did not have any science and labs to prove.

See today. The Science and Labs of today's materistic world have taken a long route and is coming out with the similar results. And there are still so much to cover. That is why hinduism is always for science.

That the spiritual path is shorter way to the knowledge was known to the great people but again this is only for a very few geniuses. That is why the religions and sects have come up (was the original intentions) to guide the people to the spirituality.

Yes both of the path leads to same goal but spirituality makes it lightening faster.

Love and best wishes

Tirisilex
16 August 2010, 02:14 PM
I have another person at a different site telling me that Liberation is Soooo Rare that only 1 in a billion can reach it.. He's saying that we are all guilty of killing Bugs and therefore are destined for Hell

Onkara
16 August 2010, 02:19 PM
I have another person at a different site telling me that Liberation is Soooo Rare that only 1 in a billion can reach it.. He's saying that we are all guilty of killing Bugs and therefore are destined for Hell

Do you believe them? :)

Tirisilex
16 August 2010, 02:25 PM
Nope.. not at all