Pre-Marital Sex

[mblova]

This is a subject that i think has a need to be addressed as hindu children, esp first generation americans get older and go to college where the lifestyle changes dramatically. As a college sophomore i always wonder what the "books" say about such acts. The most i can recall is that a man and woman should save themselves for the marriage night for the "suhag".

What do you guys think of pre-marital sex, knowing that many did not grow up in this country, or with the same college atmosphere. Its a decesion that i have to make but i am very curious as to what hindu scripture dictates.


-mblova

[Arjuna]

This is a subject that i think has a need to be addressed as hindu children, esp first generation americans get older and go to college where the lifestyle changes dramatically. As a college sophomore i always wonder what the "books" say about such acts. The most i can recall is that a man and woman should save themselves for the marriage night for the "suhag".

What do you guys think of pre-marital sex, knowing that many did not grow up in this country, or with the same college atmosphere. Its a decesion that i have to make but i am very curious as to what hindu scripture dictates.

Perhaps smriti-shastras prohibit premarital sex for Brahmanas. But for kshatriyas ect it seem to be allowed. We know that for example Krishna had enough sexual relationships before his marriage.

Also, smritis accept a Gandharva type marriage — which is simply sex in love without any rituals and social stuff.

Myself i, as a kaula, think that there should be no restrictions in this field, but education and culture must be there (not conditioning). Suppression of sex never results in any good. And arranged marriage as well.

[mblova]

What i find interesting is as a brahmin, a lot of religious teaching is taught. However they never, and i have never seen an incident where they traverse to the "dark" side and discuss sex, pre-marital sex and so forth. I must say the kama sutra is a hindu scripture and im very curious as to its inception but see how its never discussed as it is a socailly and i would think religiously taboo subject.

also some of the terms you used i am unfamiliar with

smriti-shastras what does this mean? and

Gandharva this also?

how do these terms relate to marriage and so forth.

greatly appreciated!

[orlando]

As far as I know,pre-marital sex is totally forbidden.
I hope that mblova will find interesting the following writings which are taken from the book Dancing with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Catechism by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (1927-2001).
By http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-15.html

What Is the Hindu View of Sexuality?
SLOKA 74

The purpose of sexual union is to express and foster love's beautiful intimacy and to draw husband and wife together for procreation. While offering community guidance, Hinduism does not legislate sexual matters. Aum.

BHASHYA

Sexual intercourse is a natural reproductive function, a part of the instinctive nature, and its pleasures draw man and woman together that a child may be conceived. It also serves through its intimacy to express and nurture love. It is love which endows sexual intercourse with its higher qualities, transforming it from an animal function to a human fulfillment. Intensely personal matters of sex as they affect the family or individual are not legislated, but left to the judgment of those involved, subject to community laws and customs. Hinduism neither condones nor condemns birth control, sterilization, masturbation, homosexuality, petting, polygamy or pornography. It does not exclude or draw harsh conclusions against any part of human nature, though scripture prohibits adultery and forbids abortion except to save a mother's life. Advice in such matters should be sought from parents, elders and spiritual leaders. The only rigid rule is wisdom, guided by tradition and virtue. The Vedas beseech, "May all the divine powers together with the waters join our two hearts in one! May the Messenger, the Creator and holy Obedience unite us." Aum Namah Sivaya.

What Is the Relation of Sex to Marriage?
SLOKA 75

Wisdom demands that the intimacies of sexual intercourse be confined to marriage. Marriages that are free of prior relationships are the truest and strongest, seldom ending in separation or divorce. Aum Namah Sivaya.

BHASHYA

When a virgin man and woman marry and share physical intimacy with each other, their union is very strong and their marriage stable. This is because their psychic nerve currents, or nadis, grow together and they form a one body and a one mind. Conversely, if the man or woman has had intercourse before the marriage, the emotional-psychic closeness of the marriage will suffer, and this in proportion to the extent of promiscuity. For a marriage to succeed, sexual intercourse must be preserved for husband and wife. Each should grow to understand the other's needs and take care to neither deny intercourse to the married partner nor make excessive demands. A healthy, unrepressed attitude should be kept regarding sexual matters. Boys and girls must be taught to value and protect their chastity as a sacred treasure, and to save the special gift of intimacy for their spouse. They should be taught the importance of loyalty in marriage and to avoid even the thought of adultery. The Vedas intone, "Sweet be the glances we exchange, our faces showing true concord. Enshrine me in your heart and let one spirit dwell with us." Aum Namah Sivaya.

O man and woman, having acquired knowledge from the learned, proclaim amongst the wise the fact of your intention of entering the married life. Attain to fame, observing the noble virtue of nonviolence, and uplift your soul. Shun crookedness. Converse together happily. Living in a peaceful home, spoil not your life. Spoil not your progeny. In this world, pass your life happily, on this wide Earth full of enjoyment! Shukla Yajur Veda 5.17.

Husband and wife in sweet accord give milk oblations to the Gods and press and strain the Soma. They acquire a plenteous store of food. They come united to the altar. Their rewards never lessen. They do not wander from the Gods or seek to hide their favors granted. Thus they acquire great glory. With sons and daughters at their side, they live a good long span of years, both decked with precious gold.Rig Veda 8.31.5-8

Have your eating and drinking in common. I bind you together. Assemble for worship of the Lord, like spokes around a hub. Of one mind and one purpose I make you, following one leader. Be like the Gods, ever deathless! Never stop loving.Atharva Veda 3.30.6-7.

Unite, O Lord, this couple like a pair of lovebirds. May they surrounded by children be, living both long and happily.Atharva Veda 14.2.64.

Let there be faithfulness to each other until death. This, in short, should be known as the highest duty of husband and wife. So let husband and wife ever strive, doing all their duties, that they may not, separated from each other, wander apart.Manu Dharma Shastras 9.101-2

Now please read what Subramuniyaswamy says in his book Living with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Culture.
By http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lws/lws_ch-10.html

Brahmacharya, the yoga of celibacy, is a traditional practice in Saivite Hinduism. It allows the adolescent or young adult to use his vital energies to prepare for a rewarding life, to develop his mind and talents for his chosen vocation. The first of the four stages, or ashramas, of life is actually called the brahmacharya ashrama. Love, including sex, is one of the legitimate four goals of life, according to our religion. Sex is not bad. Its place, however, is properly within the confines of a sanctified marriage. Nor are sex drives unnatural. The goal of the brahmachari and brahmacharini is not to become fearful of sex, but to understand sex and the sexual impulses in a balanced way. During the time of brahmacharya, the goal is to control the sex urges and transmute those vital energies into the brain to gain a great mental and spiritual strength. Yes, this vital life force must be focused on studies and spiritual pursuits. Brahmacharya maintained until marriage, and faithfulness thereafter, helps enable the devotee to merit a good wife or husband, a happy, stable marriage and secure, well-adjusted children.


I agree with Arjuna when he says:

Suppression of sex never results in any good.

In fact sublimation results in good.
Regards,
Orlando.

[mblova]

Hey Bhakta thanks for the response. So what we can conclude is that the texts indicate that a marriage will be better if both individuals are virgins. Now is that the only place sexual activities are discussed or are there other places?

What i find interesting is that sex is such a taboo subject but the kama sutra evolved from hinduism which is very interesting.

anybody else wanna chime in?

[sarabhanga]

For the Brahmana varna there should be no sex outside of marriage, and for the Brahmacarya ashrama there should be no sexual relations.

For anyone who has completed their formal studentship but remains without any formal marriage and with no particular dedication to Brahma, there is no prohibition of anything beyond the basic limits of Yama (which, at the very least, requires Ahimsa).



Manu Smriti, III:

6. In connecting himself with a wife, let him carefully avoid the ten following families, be they ever so great, or rich in kine, horses, sheep, grain, or (other) property,

7. (Viz.) one which neglects the sacred rites, one in which no male children (are born), one in which the Veda is not studied …

20. Now listen to (the) brief (description of) the following eight marriage-rites used by the four castes (varna) which partly secure benefits and partly produce evil both in this life and after death.

21. (They are) the rite of Brahman (Brahma), that of the gods (Daiva), that of the Rishis (Arsha), that of Prajapati (Prajapatya), that of the Asuras (Asura), that of the Gandharvas (Gandharva), that of the Rhashasas (Rakshasa), and that of the Pisakas (Paisaka).

22. Which is lawful for each caste (varna) and which are the virtues or faults of each (rite), all this I will declare to you, as well as their good and evil results with respect to the offspring.

23. One may know that the first six according to the order (followed above) are lawful for a Brahmana [i.e. Brahma (highest), Daiva, Arsha, Prajapatya, Asura, and Gandharva (lowest)], the four last for a Kshatriya [i.e. Asura, Gandharva, Rakshasa, and Paisaka], and the same four, excepting the Rakshasa rite, for a Vaisya and a Sudra [i.e. Asura, Gandharva, and Paisaka].

24. The sages state that the first four are approved (in the case) of a Brahmana, one, the Rakshasa (rite in the case) of a Kshatriya, and the Asura (marriage in that) of a Vaisya and of a Sudra.

25. But in these (Institutes of the sacred law) three of the five (last) are declared to be lawful and two unlawful; the Paisaka and the Asura (rites) must never be used.

26. For Kshatriyas those before-mentioned two rites, the Gandharva and the Rakshasa, whether separate or mixed, are permitted by the sacred tradition.

27. The gift of a daughter, after decking her (with costly garments) and honouring (her by presents of jewels), to a man learned in the Veda and of good conduct, whom (the father) himself invites, is called the Brahma rite.

28. The gift of a daughter who has been decked with ornaments, to a priest who duly officiates at a sacrifice, during the course of its performance, they call the Daiva rite.

29. When (the father) gives away his daughter according to the rule, after receiving from the bridegroom, for (the fulfillment of) the sacred law, a cow and a bull or two pairs, that is named the Arsha rite.

30. The gift of a daughter (by her father) after he has addressed (the couple) with the text, 'May both of you perform together your duties,' and has shown honour (to the bridegroom), is called in the Smriti the Prajapatya rite.

31. When (the bridegroom) receives a maiden, after having given as much wealth as he can afford, to the kinsmen and to the bride herself, according to his own will, that is called the Asura rite.

32. The voluntary union of a maiden and her lover one must know (to be) the Gandharva rite, which springs from desire and has sexual intercourse for its purpose.

33. The forcible abduction of a maiden from her home, while she cries out and weeps, after (her kinsmen) have been slain or wounded and (their houses) broken open, is called the Rakshasa rite.

34. When (a man) by stealth seduces a girl who is sleeping, intoxicated, or disordered in intellect, that is the eighth, the most base and sinful rite of the Pisakas.

36. Listen now to me, ye Brahmanas, while I fully declare what quality has been ascribed by Manu to each of these marriage-rites.

37. The son of a wife wedded according to the Brahma rite, if he performs meritorious acts, liberates from sin ten ancestors, ten descendants and himself as the twenty-first.

38. The son born of a wife, wedded according to the Daiva rite, likewise (saves) seven ancestors and seven descendants, the son of a wife married by the Arsha rite three (in the ascending and descending lines), and the son of a wife married by the rite of Ka (Prajapati) six (in either line).

39. From the four marriages, (enumerated) successively, which begin with the Brahma rite spring sons, radiant with knowledge of the Veda and honoured by the Sishtas (good men).

40. Endowed with the qualities of beauty and goodness, possessing wealth and fame, obtaining as many enjoyments as they desire and being most righteous, they will live a hundred years.

41. But from the remaining (four) blamable marriages spring sons who are cruel and speakers of untruth, who hate the Veda and the sacred law.

[And those four “blamable marriages” are the Asura, Gandharva, Rakshasa, and Paisaka, marriage rites.]

42. In the blameless marriages blameless children are born to men, in blamable (marriages) blamable (offspring); one should therefore avoid the blamable (forms of marriage).

So, for Brahmanas in general, there are six lawful marriages, of which only four are recommended by sages, and according to Manu the Asura rites are also illegal and the Gandharva rites not recommended.

Following Manu’s exclusions, only the Brahma, Daiva, Arsha, and Prajapatya rites are proper for a Brahmana marriage.

For Kshatriyas, however, Manu considers ALL of their marriage rites to be relatively “blamable”, but the Gandharva marriage is the traditional first preference of the Kshatriya varna.

[orlando]

What i find interesting is that sex is such a taboo subject but the kama sutra evolved from hinduism which is very interesting.

It is interesting even to note that this taboo degenerated to a big sexphobia in some hindu traditions.For example some hindus say that masturbation is a sin and that God would be "forced" to punish someone because of masturbations.According to me,such hindus are similar to zelous christians of the medieval age.

[sarabhanga]

DISSIPATION:

Dissipation occurs through excessive talk, and through loss of the vital fluids (which must be transmuted in order to make progress in spiritual life) such as through masturbation or excessive intercourse only for pleasure, with no intention of conceiving a child. ~ Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

[Sudarshan]

It is interesting even to note that this taboo degenerated to a big sexphobia in some hindu traditions.For example some hindus say that masturbation is a sin and that God would be "forced" to punish someone because of masturbations.According to me,such hindus are similar to zelous christians of the medieval age.

A sin must be discriminated from a vice. A sin is an action that harms others mentally or physically and it can be absolved only by experiencing its fruits or by deep prayers of remorse. Bigger sins like murder in a past birth etc cannot be resolved apart from samAdhi or by undergoing the effects.

Activities like masturbation, pre marital sex, prostitution, smoking, drugs etc are not sins, because they do not hurt others. These are addictions which must be given up if one aspires for spiritual growth. These are activities of materialist people who believe that all life ceases to exist at death. Those who believe in after life will certainly give consideration for spiritual pursuit by gradually erasing out these materialistic tendencies that can trap you in samsAra. Any single addiction will ensure that your spiritual progress will remain blocked until you resolve it. All humans have strong material tendencies like these that weigh us down, but we must overcome them to the extent allowed by the prArabdha Karma. The absence of the will power to overcome such weaknessess is a result of fate, that cant help in spiritual progress. That is where the guru can help - motivation to stay away from sin and vice.

Brahmacharya is considered to be a very supreme quality by all religions. Its value is not to be undermined by considering the difficulty of its practical nature. It is universally accepted that proper practice of Brahmacharya leads to mind control and spiritual growth on its own merit. Zealot Christians of the medieval age were certainly more aware of spirituality than the "present day breed of fallen Hindus" who do not even know the fundamentals of religion, and distort it to suit their taste. One swamiji was found advocating that the use of tobacco in large doses can lead to God realization quickly. Did you know what happened? His diciplies grew in big numbers because this religion was easy and fun to follow. Unfortunately, God was not found, but many found cancer. True religion is hard to follow, and takes a certain amount will power to listen to good advice and follow them.

We need not pass judgements on others, but what should we do to ourselves? There cant be much compromise from a personal point of view unless you have planned to continue to exist in samsAra by bowing down to all your own materialistic desires. The desires trap you at every stage and are limitless and exist in all colors and hues - the objective in spiritual growth is to exercise one's will power and channelize these desires slowly towards God. One should first understand what is good and what is pleasant, before such a transition is ever possible. If you convince yourself that good=pleasant always, then there is no room for real growth.

[orlando]

Sudarshan,I really hope that you know that,unlike Sri Vaishnavism,not all hindu traditions say to their followers to "live and act only for the pleasure of the Lord".
Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

DISSIPATION:

Dissipation occurs through excessive talk, and through loss of the vital fluids (which must be transmuted in order to make progress in spiritual life) such as through masturbation or excessive intercourse only for pleasure, with no intention of conceiving a child. ~ Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

In the Yoga Sastras it is said:

Maranam Bindu Patanat,
Jivanam Bindu Rakshanat.

Falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life.

And those students who find that world of God through chastity, theirs is that heavenly country; theirs, in whatever world they are, is freedom.-Chandogya Upanishad

There is no doubt that people die prematurely by letting the semen out of the body; knowing this, the Yogi should always preserve semen and lead a life of strict celibacy.-Siva Samhita

Regards,
Orlando.

[Sudarshan]

But have you enquired why should one live for the pleasure of the Lord? Because the Lord is lacking in something? It is for your own sake only. Straying away from the Lord means that you are trading the eternal bliss of Brahman with the meagre pleasure of the senses, which are not even long lasting. That is why most traditions emphasise living for the Lord's sake. I do not know of any Hindu tradition that says "dont live for the Lord", and I wonder why such a tradition is called Hindu in the first place.

The main reason why Hinduism does not condemn individuals for any reason is because we beleive in the law of Karma and progressive salvation. Even if you do not live a dharmic life, nothing is permanently lost - hence our shAstras are more liberal than Christianity which beleives that permanent damage is caused by non compliance with scriptures. Such an issue does not arise in the scheme of our philosophy, as it is generally held that all souls will find their place with God some day, however long it may take.

Our bondage in the world is caused by our three guNas of sattva, rajas and tamas. Sattva guNa takes one towards God, tamas takes you away from God( temporarily) and rajas does neither. Thus every human being is a union of some proporition of these guNas. People who are predominantly sattvik in nature will experience heavenly pleasures, those who are tAmasic will experience suffering and those who are rajasik will usually experience mixture of enjoyment and suffering. Those who are completely freed of rajas and tamas become devas, and gradually get liberated. Those who transcend the three guNas, will be directly liberated.

Every action of ours belongs to one of sattva, rajas and tamas, unless one is enlightened in which case the action does not fall in any category. This includes the act of sex too, naturally. Celibacy is of the nature of pure sattva, and is one of the most difficult feats to accomplish. When sex is between a husband and wife
wedded by the proper rites and for the sake of proceation, it is an act of Sattva. When such act is not for procreation, it is still dharmic but it is not as pure as the above, and tainted by materialism. Other sexual activities like premarital sex, masturbation and similar things which do not harm others will fall in the rajasik mode. And violent acts of sex like rape is of the nature of tamas.

Human beings exist in all kinds, some predominantly Sattvik, some rajasik and some tamasik. Those of tamasik nature are close to animals and evil spirits. Those in the mode of rajas is the typical materialistic man, who obeys social laws. Those in the mode of Sattva is the typical spiritual man, who will qualify for liberation in due course. Sattvik nature alone helps in the long term spiritual growth, and the nature of rajas will save you from the clutches of law. That of tamas will likely land you in jail, and also spell a spiritual downfall.


Every person is free to choose to be Sattvik or rAjasik to the extent permitted by his vAsanas, but the person with true spiritual inclinations will try to subdue his basal tendencies that drag him down to bondage, by adopting various means of sAdhana. This cannot be enforced by a religion, but all true religions recommend people to be Sattvik, which does include "living for the Lord". Without this fundamental principle, it is only materialsim in the garb of religion.

[Arjuna]

In the Yoga Sastras it is said:

Maranam Bindu Patanat,
Jivanam Bindu Rakshanat.

Falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life.

And those students who find that world of God through chastity, theirs is that heavenly country; theirs, in whatever world they are, is freedom.-Chandogya Upanishad

There is no doubt that people die prematurely by letting the semen out of the body; knowing this, the Yogi should always preserve semen and lead a life of strict celibacy.-Siva Samhita

Regards,
Orlando.

That kind of disciplines which deal with longevity and immortality indeed in most cases recommend preventing a loss of semen (but do not prohibit sexual act itself). However these disciplines have nothing to do with a path to Moksha or God.
Bodily health and life span aren't same as Liberation!

BTW brahmacharya in Chandogya is NOT related to sex but simply means "studying" or "way to Brahman". The whole stuff about absistence from sex as smth spiritual as such is a product of a later period.

[Znanna]

Well, with respect to loss of semen ...

So glad I don't have to worry about such :P



ZN
/just a girl

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Falling of semen brings death;

[...]

There is no doubt that people die prematurely by letting the semen out of the body;

Regards,
Orlando.

Strange to believe this when there is not one shred of scientific evidence demonstrating this assumption. As I have said previously, semen naturally leaves the body periodically on its own anyway. There is no scientific or medical evidence whatsoever demonstrating such a claim. In fact, evidence points more towards the opposite. Sex is actually also a form of body exercize and like any exercize if done regularly will lower the heart rate in the long run and make the heart muscle stronger. On the other hand, sitting in front of a computer is generally not good for your health if done for extended periods of time because no exercize is being done which is not good for the body's muscles or organs. So from a scientific and medical point of view, chances are that over the course of your life you will be healthier from having sex regularly than from sitting in front of a computer spreading myths. ~BYS~

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

I'm not trying to sound condescending in my previous post. However, when it comes to living a spiritual lifestyle or at least attempting to make some spiritual advancement, it is essential that we use our intellect to distinguish between what simply makes sense and what sounds like far-fetched dogma. Being a spiritually-oriented person does not require one to blindly believe something that doesn't make any sense at all just because some religious person a long time ago said so. I guess I'm just a bit surprised to see what I consider quite a bit of nonsense being that people are concerned over the loss of semen lowering one's lifespan while living in cities full of car exhaust and industrial pollution. :confused: ~BYS~

[saidevo]

Sex is actually also a form of body exercize and like any exercize if done regularly will lower the heart rate in the long run and make the heart muscle stronger.


From the article The Value of Semen
by Swami Sivananda (Divine Life Society):
(http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_value_of_semen.html)



One drop of semen in manufactured out of forty drops of blood according to modern medical science. According to Ayurveda, it is elaborated out of eighty drops of blood.

Semen is found in a subtle state in all the cells of the body. Just as sugar is all-pervading in the sugar-cane, butter in milk, so also, semen is pervading the whole body. Just as the butter milk is thin after the butter is removed, so also, semen is thinned by its wastage. The more the wastage of semen the more is the weakness. In the Yoga Sastras it is said:

Maranam Bindu Patanat,
Jivanam Bindu Rakshanat.

Falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life. Semen is the real vitality in men. It is the hidden treasure in man. It imparts Brahma-Tejas6 to the face and strength to the intellect.

Eminent European medical men also support the statement of the Yogins of India. Dr. Nicole says: “It is a medical and physiological fact that the best blood in the body goes to form the elements of reproduction in both the sexes. In a pure and orderly life, this matter is reabsorbed. It goes back into circulation ready to form the finest brain, nerve and muscular tissues. This vital fluid of man carried back and diffused through his system makes him manly, strong, brave and heroic. If wasted, it leaves him effeminate, weak and physically debilitated and prone to sexual irritation and disordered function, a wretched nervous system, epilepsy, and various other diseases and death. The suspension of the use of the generative organs is attended with a notable increase of bodily and mental and spiritual vigour.”

Another writer, Dr. E.P. Miller, says: “All waste of spermatic secretions, whether voluntary or involuntary, is a direct waste of the life force. It is almost universally conceded that the choicest element of the blood enters into the composition of the spermatic secretion. If these conclusions are correct, then it follows that a chaste life is essential to man’s well-being.”


From the article Techniques of Sex Sublimation
by Swami Sivananda (Divine Life Society):
(http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_techniques_sex_sublimation.html)



The sexual energy must be transmuted into spiritual energy or ojas shakti by the practice of japa, prayer, meditation, study of religious books, pranayama and asanas.

Ojas is spiritual energy that is stored up in the brain. This stored up energy can then be utilised for divine contemplation and spiritual pursuits.

(Sex) Sublimation is not a matter of suppression or repression, but a positive, dynamic, conversion process. It is the process of controlling the sex energy, conserving it, then diverting it into higher channels, and finally, converting it into spiritual energy or ojas shakti.

The process of sex sublimation is extremely difficult. It demands constant and protracted sadhana and perfect discipline.

Anger and muscular energy can also be transmuted into ojas. A man who has a great deal of ojas in his brain can turn out immense mental work. He is very intelligent. He has lustrous eyes and a magnetic aura in his face. He can influence people by speaking a few words. A short speech of his produces a tremendous impression on the minds of the hearers. His speech is thrilling. He has an awe-inspiring personality. Sri Shankara, an akhanda brahmachari, worked wonders through his power of ojas. He did digvijaya and held controversies and heated debates in different parts of India with learned scholars through his power of ojas. A yogi always directs his attention to the accumulation of this divine energy by unbroken chastity.

In yoga, it is called urdhvaretas. An urdhvareta yogi is one in whom the seminal energy has flown upwards into the brain as ojas shakti. There is now no possibility of the semen going downwards by sexual excitement.

According to yogic science, semen exists in a subtle form throughout the whole body. It is found in a subtle state in all the cells of the body. It is withdrawn and elaborated into a gross form in the sexual organ under the influence of the sexual will and sexual excitement. An urdhvareta yogi not only converts the semen into ojas, but checks through his yogic power, through purity in thought, word and deed, the very formation of semen by the secretary cells of the testes or seeds. This is a great secret. Allopaths believe that even in an urdhvareta yogi, the formation of semen goes on incessantly and that the fluid is reabsorbed into the blood. This is a mistake. They do not understand the inner yogic secrets and mysteries. They are in the dark. Their drishti or vision is concerned with the gross things of the universe. The yogi penetrates into the subtle hidden nature of things through yogic chakshu or the inner vision of wisdom. The yogi gets control over the astral nature of semen and thereby prevents the formation of the very fluid itself.

The body of a man who is truly an urdhvaretas has the scent of a lotus. A man who is not a brahmachari, in whom gross semen is formed, may, on the other hand, smell like a buck goat. The semen dries up in those who practice pranayama seriously. The semen-energy ascends up to the brain. It is stored up as ojas shakti or spiritual energy and comes back as amrita or nectar.

There is another segment called “dhiryaretas,” or those persons, who, previously a prey to lustful thoughts and deviated from brahmacharya, later take to the practice of strict celibacy. Such a person, if he practices strict celibacy for twelve years, can acquire superhuman powers. Medha nadi or buddhi nadi is formed in him. By means of this, he can have retentive memory of anything as long as he lives, and he will be in a position to learn all kinds of subjects.

By observance of unbroken brahmacharya in thought, word and deed for a period of full twelve years, one is bestowed even with the vision of God, if one aspires for it. He can solve the most abstruse and complicated problems easily. But, this kind of observance should commence before the thirty-second or the thirty-fourth year.


Swami Sivananda himself was a physician and practiced medicine before he took to sannyasa. I don't think his opinions could be wrong or prejudiced.

All the Hindu sages, seers, saints and rishis have observed and recommended sex sublimation by strictly practicing brahmacharya. They have demonstrated their spiritual potentional in myriad ways for the benefit of humanity. How can they all be wrong vis-a-vis the changing opinions of orthodox medical science?

Sex sublimation, therefore, cannot weaken the muscles or organs (though it might shrink the male reproductive organ which is for the good). It is extremely difficult to practice it though.

There are several other related and valuable articles on the practice of brahmacharya at the Website: http://www.atmajyoti.org.

[Arjuna]

All the Hindu sages, seers, saints and rishis have observed and recommended sex sublimation by strictly practicing brahmacharya.

Please, no need in such baseless generalisations! This is simply wrong. While SOME saints preferred celibacy, other considered no spiritual difference is there between being a celibate and having sex, and yet another saw a spiritual value in sex and prohibited celibacy.

Enough of this anti-sex propaganda based on utter disinformation. Yes, SOME Hindu traditions advise celibacy for SOME groups of aspirants, but nothing more than that!

[orlando]

Strange to believe this when there is not one shred of scientific evidence demonstrating this assumption. As I have said previously, semen naturally leaves the body periodically on its own anyway. ~BYS~

Now I will copy something from the book PRACTICE OF BRAHMACHARYA by SRI SWAMI SIVANANDA.
By http://www.dlshq.org/download/brahma_nopic.htm#_Toc441557012

Get up before 4 a.m.
Night pollution generally occurs in the fourth quarter of the night. Those who are in the habit of getting up from bed between 3 and 4 a.m. and doing Japa and Dhyana can never fall a victim to nocturnal pollutions. Make it a point to get up at least at 4 a.m. regularly. Sleep on a coarse bed. Use rough mats.


So from a scientific and medical point of view, chances are that over the course of your life you will be healthier from having sex regularly than from sitting in front of a computer spreading myths.

I must confess that by reading his book I am sure that what he preachs is much more sexphobia than true religious chastity.It is even true that Sivananda spreads some myths in his book.

13. SOME IDEAL BRAHMACHARINS
Hanuman
Hanuman was born of Anjana from Pavana, the wind-god. He was named Hanuman after the name of the city Hanuman over which his maternal uncle Parti Surya ruled. Hanuman’s body was as hard as stone. So, Anjana named him Vajranga. He is also known by the name Mahavir or mightiest hero, because he exhibited several heroic feats. His other names are Balabhima and Maruti.

The world has not yet seen, and will not see in the future also, a mighty hero like Sri Hanuman. During his lifetime he worked wonders and exhibited superhuman feats of strength and valour. He has left behind him a name which, as long as the world lasts, will continue to wield a mighty influence over the minds of millions of people.

Hanuman is one of the seven Chiranjivis. He is the only learned scholar who knows the nine Vyakaranas or sciences of granunar. He learnt the Sastras from the sun-god. He is the personification of Brahmacharya. He is the wisest of the wise, the strongest of the strong and the bravest of the brave. He is the Sakti or energy of Rudra. He who meditates on Hanuman and repeats his name attains power, strength, glory, prosperity and success in life. Hanuman is worshipped in all parts of India, particularly in Maharashtra.

Hanuman had the power to assume any form he liked, to swell his body to an enormous extent and to reduce it to the length of a thumb-nail. His strength was superhuman. He was the terror of the Rakshasas or demons. He was well-versed in the four Vedas and other sacred book’s. His valour, wisdom, knowledge of the scriptures and superhuman strength attracted everybody who came near him. He had extraordinary skill in warfare.

Hanuman was the chosen messenger, warrior and servant of Sri Rama. He was a votary and devotee of Lord Rama. Rama was his all-in-all. He lived to serve Rama. He lived in Rama. He lived for Rama. He was a minister and intimate friend of Sugriva.

Hanuman was born on the morning of the 8th of the lunar month, Chaitra, on the most blessed day, Tuesday. From his very birth, Hanuman exhibited extraordinary physical strength and worked many miracles. When he was a child, he jumped up at the sun and caught hold of him to eat. All the gods were very much troubled. They came with folded hands to the child and humbly entreated him to release the sun. The child set free the sun at their request.

A Rishi pronounced a curse on. Hanuman for his wrong action that he would remain unconscious of his great strength and prowess till he met Sri Rama and served Him with devotion. Hanuman saw Sri Rama for the first time in Kishkinda. Sri Rama and Lakshmana came there in the course of their search for Sita whom Ravana had carried away. As soon as Hanuman beheld Sri Rama, he became quite conscious of his own strength and power.

Hanuman burnt the whole of Lanka and brought news of Sita to Rama. In the great war between Rama and Ravana, Hanuman killed many heroes of the Rakshasa army. He did many superhuman acts. Carrying a big mountain and other great activities were nothing for Hanuman. All those were due to the power of Brahmacharya.

When the great war was over, Vibhishana was installed on the throne of Lanka. The time of banishment was over. Sri Rama, Lakshmana, Sita and Hanuman sat on the Pushpaka Vimana or aeroplane and reached Ayodhya in time. The coronation ceremony of Lord Rama was celebrated with great eclat and pomp. Sita presented a necklace of pearls to Hanuman.

Glory to Hanuman, the blessed devotee of Lord Rama. Glory, glory to Sri Anjaneya, the mighty hero, undaunted warrior and learned Brahmachari, the like of whom the world has not yet seen and will not see in all time to come.

May we derive inspiration from Hanuman’s ideal life of Brahmacharya! May His blessings be upon you all. Let us sing His glory:

Jaya Siya Ram Jaya Jaya Siya Ram
Jaya Hanuman Jaya Jaya Hanuman
Jaya Siya Ram Jaya Jaya Siya Ram
Jaya Hanuman Jaya Jaya Hanuman

Sri Lakshmana
Lakshmana, the son of Dasaratha by his second queen Sumitra, was the younger brother of Sri Rama. He was an Avatara of Adisesha. He was the constant companion of Rama both in pleasure and in pain. Rama and Lakshmana lived, dined, played and studied together. One could not bear the separation of the other. Lakshmana was a loving servant also of Sri Rama. He carried out Sri Rama’s commands to the very letter. He lived in perfect obedience to Sri Rama.

Lakshmana had pure and untainted brotherly love. His object of life was service to his elder brother. Obedience to the commands of his brother was the motto of his life. He would not do anything without getting Rama’s permission. He regarded Sri Rama as his God, Guru, father and mother. He followed Rama as a shadow.

He was quite unselfish at heart. He abandoned all the comforts of a royal life willingly only for the company of his brother. He served Rama’s cause in all possible ways. He made Rama’s cause his own. He sacrificed every personal consideration on the altar of brotherly love. Sri Rama was his all-in-all. Lakshmana could relinquish anything, his life even, for the sakc of Rama. He abandoned in a moment his mother, his wife and his royal comforts to follow Sri Rama and Sita in exile. What a magnanimous soul! What a great Tyagi he was! Here is an unprecedented example, in the history of the whole world, of a disinterested, noble and devoted soul who lived only to serve his brother. That is the reason why the readers of Ramayana eulogize Lakshmana for his pure and unique love towards his brother. Some eulogize Bharata, while others speak very highly of Hanuman, but Lakshmana was in no way inferior to Bharata or Hanuman.

Lakshmana followed Sri Rama for the long period of fourteen years though he was perfectly aware of the dangers of the forest. He accompanied Rama with his bow and arrow, though his help was not required by Visvamitra. It was all due to his devotion and love towards his brother Sri Rama.

Sri Rama also had intense love for Lakshmana. When Lakshmana fell down unconscious by the fatal arrow of Meghanada, Rama’s heart was broken. He wept bitterly. He made a determination not to revisit Ayodhya when he lost his dear brother. He said, "A wife like Sita can be had, but a real devoted brother of the type of Lakshmana cannot be had again. The world is nothing for me without my brother."

Lakshmana was pure in thought, word and deed. He led the life of an ideal Brahmachari during the fourteen years of exile. He never looked at the face or body of Sita. His eyes were ever directed towards her lotus-like feet only. When Sugriva brought Sita’s cloak and jewels—which, while she was being carried away, she had allowed to fall on the earth, seeing the monkeys on the mountain—Rama showed them to Lakshmana and asked whether he recognized them. Lakshmana said:

Naham Janami Keyure Naham Janami Kankane
Nupura Eva Janami Nityam Padabhivandanat

"I do not recognise the bracelets or ear-rings; I know only the anklets, for I worshipped her feet alone." See how Lakshmana revered Sita as mother or Goddess.

Meghanada, the son of Ravana, had conquered even Indra, the lord of gods. By virtue of this victory, Meghanada also came to be known as Indrajit. He had a boon of being invincible to all except to one who could abstain from all sorts of sensual enjoyments as least for a full fourteen years. He was unconquerable. But Lakshmana destroyed him by the power of his purity, by the power of Brahmacharya.

O Lakshmana! We shall ever sing thy glory and repeat, "Ram Lakshman Janaki, Jai Bolo Hanuman Ki!" Introduce us to our beloved Lord Rama, thy dear brother and master. Help us also in holding communion with Lord Rama. O Lakshmana! Be ever merciful to those neophyte Sadhakas who grope in the darkness of ignorance! Teach us the secret of success and help us in becoming staunch celibates till the end of our lives. Once again, salutations to thee, O Lakshmana, the darling of Sumitra and the apple of Sri Rama’s eyes!

It is not true that Hanuman was very powerful because of Brahmacharya.And the story about the Lakshmana is false.
Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

BTW brahmacharya in Chandogya is NOT related to sex but simply means "studying" or "way to Brahman". The whole stuff about absistence from sex as smth spiritual as such is a product of a later period.

Arjuna is right.In fact Vedas,unlike Puranas,are not sexphobic at all.
Sudarshan,please don't take offense if I say that I decided to ignore and to not reply to your posts.
Regards,
Orlando.

[mblova]

So it can be seen that for brahmins, pre marital sex is seen as a vice. Is there anyway that this applies to before or after yagnopavit? Also seeing that masturbation is seen as reducing ones life because of the drops of blood lost(somebody has to read a biology textbook) it can be seen as slowly killing yourself.

Once in marriage is it then "normal" or "accepted" to have sex for pleasure, as i feel can be seen by the fact that there is a kama sutra.

also another question, since pre-marital sex is a vice, what is the importance of virginity then? What significance does it hold in our religion( as an example, virgins held a high significance in roman culture)

im just very curious on the subject because of being a college student.

also how did the "suhag night" evolve from this practice of postponement(if it did at all).

[atanu]

Hehe.


All is for Lords pleasure alone. Sexual consummation is supposed to be sacrifice of agni into agni. So, no problem for those who know it. And the bliss? -- who is the true cogniser of that bliss? One who has an inkling has no problem. Actually it is only a fragment of Soma bliss, said to be the inherent quality of Turiya. Through friction of nerves Soma is activated for a few seconds and then the bliss is gone and remains as a memory only --- making one long for more. Well that is not a manly thing friends. The real man is Shiva, who himself is that bliss.


But masturbation? Well what knid of sacrifice is that? That may be Self sacrifice?


But everything said and done: "I did it", sense is the culprit. And everything said and done, this problem will remain. This is the World. This is duality. No use being prudish. Where self control is laudable there hypocrisy is punishable.

Or there is the example of God himself. Gopis giggled and giggled when told by a muni that their Lord Krishna was a Brahmachari. Then Lord told them: I am pure spirit, how does flesh affect me? Till we understand this pure advaitism:


Let us accept that the desire remains for a short thrill. But let us also accept that we wish for longer and longer thrills and culminationg in a big unbroken but controlled dripping of Soma unto the senses.



Om Namah Shivayya

[Arjuna]

Hehe.
All is for Lords pleasure alone. Sexual consummation is supposed to be sacrifice of agni into agni. So, no problem for those who know it. And the bliss? -- who is the true cogniser of that bliss? One who has an inkling has no problem. Actually it is only a fragment of Soma bliss, said to be the inherent quality of Turiya. Through friction of nerves Soma is activated for a few seconds and then the bliss is gone and remains as a memory only --- making one long for more. Well that is not a manly thing friends. The real man is Shiva, who himself is that bliss.
But masturbation? Well what knid of sacrifice is that? That may be Self sacrifice?
But everything said and done: "I did it", sense is the culprit. And everything said and done, this problem will remain. This is the World. This is duality. No use being prudish. Where self control is laudable there hypocrisy is punishable.
Or there is the example of God himself. Gopis giggled and giggled when told by a muni that their Lord Krishna was a Brahmachari. Then Lord told them: I am pure spirit, how does flesh affect me? Till we understand this pure advaitism:
Let us accept that the desire remains for a short thrill. But let us also accept that we wish for longer and longer thrills and culminationg in a big unbroken but controlled dripping of Soma unto the senses.
Om Namah Shivayya

Exactly ;)


hUM hrIM shivashaktibhyo namaH

[atanu]

With respect to premarital sex.

If one's mind remains placid, then nothing is barred. Though Gandharva Vivaha is a valid way but does the case under discussion lead to marriage? There is every possibility of scarring the well being of one or the other partner in such cases, especially the female.

Such attractions take place under the effect of Rahu and one should be cautious. It is definitely not a light thing.

What is pleasurable may not be good.


Om Namah Shivayya

[Znanna]

And, what's "good" sometimes hurts :)

So long as no thing is held back, everything offered as sacrifice to HEr ... I think it's ok.

It's when things are classified, rationalized, personalized ... to me this is when debasement occurs.


ZN
/just a girl

[sarabhanga]

“Falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life” ~ Yoga Sastras

This is from the Shiva Samhita, and the same line has been repeated (from another translation):



“There is no doubt that people die prematurely by letting the semen out of the body; knowing this, the Yogi should always preserve semen and lead a life of strict celibacy.” ~ Siva Samhita

And all of this is a particularly limited (and Hindi influenced) interpretation of an important ancient saying!

Note that bindu (in Sanskrit) refers to “a detached particle; a drop, globule, or dot; a colored spot or mark; the anusvAra; a zero or cypher (placed over an erased word to show that it should not have been erased)”, and thus absolution or “the Absolute” (i.e. the Atman or brahman).

tadya evaitaM brahmalokaM brahmacaryeNAnuvindanti teSAmevaiSa brahmalokaH |
teSAM sarveSu lokeSu kAmacAro bhavati ||

And that world of Brahman belongs only to those who find it by brahmacarya ~ and for them there is freedom in all the worlds.

The world of Brahman is found only by following the path of Brahman; and from there, all ways are open!

[sarabhanga]

Well, with respect to loss of semen ...

So glad I don't have to worry about such :P

ZN / just a girl

Strictly, the same logic also applies in the case of women. The ovum is equally sacred as the sperm, and each shares the same vital purpose. The microscopic gametes were anciently unknown, but the generative power was considered to reside in the characteristic fluids emitted from the male and female genital organs.

The menstrual blood should likewise be kept from falling. Unlike the case of a man deliberately wasting his semen, however, a woman has little control over her menstruation, and there can be no blame, but the traditional advice to females would be to fall pregnant at every opportunity (normally assuming marriage). If that is not possible, an alternative would be to limit one’s diet until weight loss causes periods to cease (and that would assume renunciation). Young (pre-adolescent) girls and old (post-menopausal women) have always been especially revered, and the reason behind this is their perfect continence.

This rule is almost impossible for a women to always follow perfectly, and the traditional compromise has been that women should at least stay secluded at the time of their menstruation.

[sarabhanga]

Those kinds of disciplines which deal with longevity and immortality indeed in most cases recommend preventing a loss of semen (but do not prohibit sexual act itself). However these disciplines have nothing to do with a path to Moksha or God.

Moksha and God have everything to do with immortality and eternity!

[sarabhanga]

It is not true that Hanuman was very powerful because of Brahmacharya.
Yes it is!




And the story about Lakshman is false.
No it is not!

[Sudarshan]

Arjuna is right.In fact Vedas,unlike Puranas,are not sexphobic at all.
Sudarshan,please don't take offense if I say that I decided to ignore and to not reply to your posts.
Regards,
Orlando.

No problem. Not offended by any of your remarks...

Cant you really see that you cannot justify everything? Just take this example - a group of ten friends decide to mutually share their wives. Is there anything legally wrong in this, as long as the parties are all happy? Could this be a way to God, after all it does not harm anybody? Aren't they making their lives more enjoyable and shouldn't God reward them by giving them moxa? How many religeous people would consider this friendship as sacred and selfless? What is wrong with that? What is your opinion? Why would you say that this is not good?

For highest levels of spirituality Brahmacharya is an absolute must and is the highest possible sAdhana. Most people are not upto it because of various reasons governed by their physical and emotional needs, which are product of Prakriti. The reason that you continue to be lured by sex is because you are unable to break the bind of Prakriti and its influence on you, and you cannot break free fully until you are close to getting enlightened.

For most such people, sex in a limited measure is acceptable, and is perfectly allright. For a mumukshu, or an aspirant of moksha, the final days of life must always be spent as a sanyAsin in its perfect sense, while preparing the rest of life to be eligible for this Ashrama. It is expected that a person moves from brahmacarya to grihasta to vAnaprasta to sanyAsa. Though these stages need not be reflected in the clothes you wear or based on formal initiation, it is an absolute must that sanyAsa in mind is a prerequisite to moxa. As one gets older, one must get rid of attachments of all kinds, must spend most of the time in Godly activities and so on. While one is younger it is fairly acceptable to be involved with the world until one has gradually matured into a sanyAsin. But this goal should always be there even when one is young - it will be for a true mumukshu. For a person who has not practised self control in the grishasta Ashrama, the transition to sanyAsa is not possible. So it is necessary to exercise self restraint even as a grihasta though celibacy is not required.

Anjaneya is portrayed as a Brahmachari because his love towards Rama is of the purest kind - the highest kind known as AdhyAtmika Bhakti, of the Bhakti that arises when knowledge of God is fully present. Bhakti is always equated with pure chastity and should show you the importance of it. Of course, there is no strict Brahmacharya rule for Hanuman to follow, as he is fully enlightened. For one who is situated in the Brahman, these material rules of celibacy are not applicable. But those are not steady in Brahman, Brahmacharya is a vehicle to reach there...

[Znanna]

Strictly, the same logic also applies in the case of women. The ovum is equally sacred as the sperm, and each shares the same vital purpose. The microscopic gametes were anciently unknown, but the generative power was considered to reside in the characteristic fluids emitted from the male and female genital organs.

The menstrual blood should likewise be kept from falling. Unlike the case of a man deliberately wasting his semen, however, a woman has little control over her menstruation, and there can be no blame, but the traditional advice to females would be to fall pregnant at every opportunity (normally assuming marriage). If that is not possible, an alternative would be to limit one’s diet until weight loss causes periods to cease (and that would assume renunciation). Young (pre-adolescent) girls and old (post-menopausal women) have always been especially revered, and the reason behind this is their perfect continence.

This rule is almost impossible for a women to always follow perfectly, and the traditional compromise has been that women should at least stay secluded at the time of their menstruation.


Namaste,

Thank you for commenting; I am not well read, and I'd not come across any analog so specific as this, beyond more generalized prescriptions of purdah or somewhat akin.

There is power to be had in the Flow (red, clear, energy,whatever), too, in my opinion. However this also is perhaps a learned intent; I and many I know (who might be commonly called "witches") almost take for granted the ablilty to control these things mentally, physically or both.

I think it may be easier being a girl, as I am innately my own sacrifice.

:)


ZN
/JAG


Edit to add: Weight lifting (in other words adding muscle) rather than dieting (restricting fat) also works to cause ammenorahea.

[Sudarshan]

I'm not trying to sound condescending in my previous post. However, when it comes to living a spiritual lifestyle or at least attempting to make some spiritual advancement, it is essential that we use our intellect to distinguish between what simply makes sense and what sounds like far-fetched dogma. Being a spiritually-oriented person does not require one to blindly believe something that doesn't make any sense at all just because some religious person a long time ago said so. I guess I'm just a bit surprised to see what I consider quite a bit of nonsense being that people are concerned over the loss of semen lowering one's lifespan while living in cities full of car exhaust and industrial pollution. :confused: ~BYS~

I agree. The spiritual part of this is the avoidance of sex in the mind, and not the body. But physical sex inteferes a lot with the mind, making it prone to fantasies and restlesness, and craving for more.

Ultoimately. It depends on the kind of spiritual discipine one undertakes. Those following the path of Bhakti or prapatti are not expected to observe celibacy strictly as this is impossible or even dangerous without proper guidance and preparations. However , regardless of the discipline followed it is necessary to make the mind pure and free from disturbing thoughts when you meditate and worship. It is possible to meditate meaningfully only when mind is getting increasingly free from worldly thoughts - sex thoughts can hurt very badly and difficult to overcome, hence the need for proper self restraint and not pay much heed to those advocating otherwise, who are just expressing their own inability. If you are a serious spiritual aspirant, you should look at the what the religion eulogizes rather than what it does not comment anything upon. If you are a runner, you will probably want to be a winner rather than just be a participant in a race - one should take the best practices in spiritual instruction rather than looking for loop holes if you are serious - there is nobody to fool other than ourselves.

[Arjuna]

Moksha and God have everything to do with immortality and eternity!

U must have noticed that i used the word immortality in relation to physical body and not to THAT Amrita, which sons are we, as Veda says ;).

Being healthy or unhealthy, live long life or short is irrelated to being Jivanmukta! That is why all semen restriction stuff as well as Taoist sexual practices for longevity has nothing to do with spirituality as such.

[atanu]

U must have noticed that i used the word immortality in relation to physical body and not to THAT Amrita, which sons are we, as Veda says ;).

Being healthy or unhealthy, live long life or short is irrelated to being Jivanmukta! That is why all semen restriction stuff as well as Taoist sexual practices for longevity has nothing to do with spirituality as such.


Like interpretation of scripture, this subject also seems to be perspective ruled -- even among the spiritualists. It has to be so.

Shankaracharya was not allowed to enter the portal of sarvajnanis since he had no sexual knowledge. Then he entered a body of dead king and had 100 wives for consort. Then he forgot who he was. His disciples sang hymns to him to bring him back.

Whether it is myth or not is not important since it conveys the both sides of the perspective being presented here. Becoming slave to sense objectives is just turning one's back on God. As Sarabhanga Ji said here: Brahmacharya opens the gate to all freedom. As per my Guru, Brahmacharya is unbroken abidance in Self, to gain which the lower kind of Brahmacharya is required -- which includes gaining control over one's senses.

The following is from Uddhava Gita

7. At the sight of woman, the Lord’s instrument of delusion, the man of uncontrolled senses, attracted by her charms, falls into the blinding darkness of ignorance, just as the moth attracted by the glow of fire falls into it and perishes.

8. Woman, gold, ornaments, clothes, etc, the creations of Maya offer attraction to man as objects of enjoyment. Their infatuation deprives him of his discriminative vision and generates in him intense attachment to them. He thus becomes a victim to the sense objects as moths to fire, and perishes.


Om Namah Shivayya

But why this Maya is there in the first place?

[Sudarshan]

Very surprised to see some people commenting that Brahmacarya is not essential because the truth is the spirit soul and not the body. With this type of logic, you can justify anything - stealing, murder, dishonesty also have nothing to do with the spirit, so they are also unnecessary? What is the dividing line between "do" and "dont do"?

There is no point in showing the stories of Krishna and his exploits and using them for your day to day life. We cannot do anything the Lord does, and we cannot copy his actions. The Lord is ever free from karma and hence nothing within the confines of Prakriti affect him. If this is true for you, then one could admit that the physical body( or even the mind) is not important for you. It is great self deception to think of the spirit and ignore the grim realities of the body that you observe everyday. The physical component of Brahmacharya is a tool for arriving at the true Brahmacarya. There is no need of material gratifications for a person situated in true Brahmacarya. In either case, it is totally unnecessary.

The absence of all material and sense attachment is an absolute prerequisite to attain God, regardless of the practice followed. So whatever practice one does right now, must be in a direction that leads to detachment from the senses and attachment towards God. This law is not mutable based on a person's inclinations and wishes. Any material desire leads to Karma, and its vicious cycle.

If sex is used for the purpose of material gratification, it is certainly an obstacle in realizing the final goal, and such involvement must gradually be given up by the exercise of will power, and by developing deep attachment towards God. The same thing is true of all worldly attachments - money, fame etc. When you die the only things that will follow you are your good and bad Karmas, and your tapas shakti acquired by practice. Nothing else will follow a dead man. The fact that you are still in samsAra after countless births is a result of never having given up these material pursuits in the past.

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

I agree. The spiritual part of this is the avoidance of sex in the mind, and not the body. But physical sex inteferes a lot with the mind, making it prone to fantasies and restlesness, and craving for more.

Ultoimately. It depends on the kind of spiritual discipine one undertakes. Those following the path of Bhakti or prapatti are not expected to observe celibacy strictly as this is impossible or even dangerous without proper guidance and preparations. However , regardless of the discipline followed it is necessary to make the mind pure and free from disturbing thoughts when you meditate and worship. It is possible to meditate meaningfully only when mind is getting increasingly free from worldly thoughts - sex thoughts can hurt very badly and difficult to overcome, hence the need for proper self restraint and not pay much heed to those advocating otherwise, who are just expressing their own inability. If you are a serious spiritual aspirant, you should look at the what the religion eulogizes rather than what it does not comment anything upon. If you are a runner, you will probably want to be a winner rather than just be a participant in a race - one should take the best practices in spiritual instruction rather than looking for loop holes if you are serious - there is nobody to fool other than ourselves.

I agree with what you are saying. The key here is to focus on your own spiritual growth and do what is necessary to improve and make progress. We have to also realize that not everyone is at the same level and even those who are at the same level have different paths that they are taking that are also heading the same direction. It is one thing for other spiritual aspirants to give constructive advise on how another person can obtain spiritual growth. What I have an issue with is when others become busybodies and dictate what another person can or cannot do and then in turn try to deny any spiritual growth that person has obtained even though they have absolutely no way of knowing what is going on in that person's mind and heart. Namaste. ~BYS~

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

U must have noticed that i used the word immortality in relation to physical body and not to THAT Amrita, which sons are we, as Veda says ;).

Being healthy or unhealthy, live long life or short is irrelated to being Jivanmukta! That is why all semen restriction stuff as well as Taoist sexual practices for longevity has nothing to do with spirituality as such.

I think that is part of the confusion here. People are confusing this issue with regards to more longevity with the physical body and spiritual progress. I have jumped in here because both arguments don't make any sense when talking about those who aren't even brahmacharyas. Even if it is true that unnecessary loss of semen takes so many minutes off of the person's lifespan, this is an absurd way of trying to live longer considering that people are breathing in second-hand cigarette smoke on a daily basis along with car exhaust, our cities are polluted with chemicals emitted from industrial plants, people are getting harmful chemicals in their food and water and have harmful chemicals sitting right inside their own homes. I believe that people should live as healthy of a lifestyle as reasonably possible. Note the word "reasonably." As said previously, it is likely healthier to have sex for ten minutes than it is to sit in front of a TV set or computer for several hours. As to spiritual growth, again people should strive for the best but should also keep moderation in mind. Until you are at that point where you are fully renounced, it is at least necessary to live a life of moderation rather than consistent indulgence. People also don't seem to always understand what renunciation means. Renunciation does not necessarily mean abstaining from an activity. Instead, it means removing attachment from that activity. A fully-realized person can do or not do an activity and still be detached from it. On the opposite side, just because someone is abstaining from an activity does not mean that he or she is renounced from it. An alcoholic who hasn't had a drink for six months does not mean he/she is no longer an alcoholic. As long as the person keeps thinking about alcohol even though he/she isn't drinking, there is still an attachment there. So the irony is that a person drinking and having sex could actually be more renounced from those activities than someone trying to not drink or have sex. It has to do with what is going on inside the mind. Anyway, enough said. ~BYS~

[Sudarshan]

I agree with what you are saying. The key here is to focus on your own spiritual growth and do what is necessary to improve and make progress. We have to also realize that not everyone is at the same level and even those who are at the same level have different paths that they are taking that are also heading the same direction. It is one thing for other spiritual aspirants to give constructive advise on how another person can obtain spiritual growth. What I have an issue with is when others become busybodies and dictate what another person can or cannot do and then in turn try to deny any spiritual growth that person has obtained even though they have absolutely no way of knowing what is going on in that person's mind and heart. Namaste. ~BYS~

There is no known way to measure how much spiritual a person is, or how much he has accomplished in a past birth. External appearances can be very deceptive as what you observe currently it is based merely on prArabdha karma, while his sancita is unknown or not operating at that point. It is possible for the worst sinner(outwardly) to be a very great soul.

However, one must assume oneself at ground zero while starting ones journey, and be extemely humble towards God and earnest about the purpose - we do not honestly know when one can have a divine revelation, because it does not depend on any activities we do now. ( because it mainly depends on a truck load of meritorious things in the past). It can happen spontaneously for anybody, or one might have to wait for millions of years. But, as long as we do not see a divine hand yet, it is our responsibility to break free of the bonds of materialsm to our fullest capacity - the individual capacity is determined the the prArabdha karma responsible for this birth. As long as one makes that earnest effort, the hand of grace is always present. Our shortcomings are taken care of by God when we place that trust in him.

Spiritual progress is always possible regardless of ones shortcomings and sins, as long as true desire for growth is present. The fruits of Karma and the fruits of devotion towards God are different. If a devotee constantly sins and deviates from Dharma, he will undergo the suffering but the Lord will ultimately grant salvation. But the Lord will make you deserve it first - those who combine materialsm and spiritualism will have to endure more sterner tests in life and wait much longer before they see the light of God.

[sarabhanga]

Namaste ZN,

An alternative would involve limiting the diet and/or increasing the metabolic rate until body fat drops to about 10% of total body weight, causing amenorrhea. :)

[Znanna]

Well, being real strong has always worked for me; always been better at more than less :) (Go figure, haha)

I am almost 49, now, it is interesting to see a different aspect of how the hormonal shifts influence my perception, too. Initially, I was scared that I would lose my edge ... but again found a balance which works, to me it is a continual metamorphosis.


Namaste,
ZN

[orlando]

No problem. Not offended by any of your remarks...

Cant you really see that you cannot justify everything? Just take this example - a group of ten friends decide to mutually share their wives. Is there anything legally wrong in this, as long as the parties are all happy? Could this be a way to God, after all it does not harm anybody? Aren't they making their lives more enjoyable and shouldn't God reward them by giving them moxa? How many religeous people would consider this friendship as sacred and selfless? What is wrong with that? What is your opinion? Why would you say that this is not good?

My opinion is that I consider a bad thing share own wife with another person.I am contrary to have sex only for fun and game.Making love and making sex aren't the same thing.The ten people in your example make sex.Personally I would never make sex with an occasional woman.I would make love only with my girlfried/wife.I believe that what the ten friends do is a very wrong and bad thing.


For highest levels of spirituality Brahmacharya is an absolute must and is the highest possible sAdhana. Most people are not upto it because of various reasons governed by their physical and emotional needs, which are product of Prakriti. The reason that you continue to be lured by sex is because you are unable to break the bind of Prakriti and its influence on you, and you cannot break free fully until you are close to getting enlightened.
Before breaking the bind of Prakriti,one should be a sattvik person.I wish to be sincer with you.I am a rajasic person.And I must confess that I am more near to Tamas-Guna than Sattva-Guna.


For most such people, sex in a limited measure is acceptable, and is perfectly allright. For a mumukshu, or an aspirant of moksha, the final days of life must always be spent as a sanyAsin in its perfect sense, while preparing the rest of life to be eligible for this Ashrama. It is expected that a person moves from brahmacarya to grihasta to vAnaprasta to sanyAsa. Though these stages need not be reflected in the clothes you wear or based on formal initiation, it is an absolute must that sanyAsa in mind is a prerequisite to moxa. As one gets older, one must get rid of attachments of all kinds, must spend most of the time in Godly activities and so on. While one is younger it is fairly acceptable to be involved with the world until one has gradually matured into a sanyAsin. But this goal should always be there even when one is young - it will be for a true mumukshu. For a person who has not practised self control in the grishasta Ashrama, the transition to sanyAsa is not possible. So it is necessary to exercise self restraint even as a grihasta though celibacy is not required.

Anjaneya is portrayed as a Brahmachari because his love towards Rama is of the purest kind - the highest kind known as AdhyAtmika Bhakti, of the Bhakti that arises when knowledge of God is fully present. Bhakti is always equated with pure chastity and should show you the importance of it. Of course, there is no strict Brahmacharya rule for Hanuman to follow, as he is fully enlightened. For one who is situated in the Brahman, these material rules of celibacy are not applicable. But those are not steady in Brahman, Brahmacharya is a vehicle to reach there...

I already know that in order to achieve Moksha,one must leave all material desires and wish only Brahman.I did read many times (in my current language) the following verses taken from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:
By http://www.advaita.it/library/brihadaranyaka.htm

IV-iv-1: When this self becomes weak and senseless, as it were, the organs come to it. Completely withdrawing these particles of light, it comes to the heart. When the presiding deity of the eye turns back from all sides, the man fails to notice colour.
IV-iv-2: (The eye) becomes united (with the subtle body); then people say, ‘He does not see’. (The nose) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not smell’. (The tongue) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not taste’. (The vocal Organ) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not speak’. (The ear) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not hear’. (The Manas) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not think’. (The skin) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not touch’. (The intellect) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not know’. The top of the heart brightens. Through that brightened top the self departs, either through the eye, or through the head, or through any other part of the body. When it departs, the vital force follows; when the vital force departs, all the organs follow. Then the self has particular consciousness, and goes to the body which is related to that consciousness. It is followed by knowledge, work and past experience.
IV-iv-3: Just as a leech supported on a straw goes to the end of it, takes hold of another support and contracts itself, so does the self throw this body aside – make it senseless – take hold of another support, and contract itself.
IV-iv-4: Just as a goldsmith takes apart a little quantity of gold and fashions another – a newer and better – form, so does the self throw this body away, or make it senseless, and make another – a newer and better – form suited to the manes or the celestial minstrels, or the gods, or Viraj, or Hiranyagarbha, or other beings.
IV-iv-5: That self is indeed Brahman, as also identified with the intellect, the Manas and the vital force, with the eyes and ears, with earth, water, air and the ether, with fire, and what is other than fire, with desire and the absence of desire, with anger and the absence of anger, with righteousness and unrighteousness, with everything -–identified, in fact, with this (what is perceived) and with that (what is inferred). As it does and acts, so it becomes; by doing good it becomes good, and by doing evil it becomes evil – it becomes virtuous through good acts and vicious through evil acts. Others, however, say, ‘The self is identified with desire alone. What it desires, it resolves; what it resolves, it works out; and what it works out, it attains.’
IV-iv-6: Regarding this there is the following pithy verse: ‘Being attached he, together with the work, attains that result to which his subtle body or mind is attached. Exhausting the results of whatever work he did in this life, he returns from that world to this for (fresh) work’. Thus does the man who desires (transmigrate). But the man who does not desire (never transmigrates). Of him who is without desires, who is free from desires, the objects of whose desire have been attained, and to whom all objects of desire are but the Self – the organs do not depart. Being but Brahman, he is merged in Brahman.
IV-iv-7: Regarding this there is this pithy verse: ‘When all the desires that dwell in his heart (mind) are gone, then he, having been mortal, becomes immortal, and attains Brahman in this very body’. Just as the lifeless Slough of a snake is cast off and lies in the ant-hill, so does this body lie. Then the self becomes disembodied and immortal, (becomes) the Prana (Supreme Self), Brahman, the Light. ‘I give you a thousand (cows), sir’, said Janaka, Emperor of Videha. IV-iv-8: Regarding this there are the following pithy verses: the subtle, extensive, ancient way has touched (been reached by) me. (Nay) I have realised it myself. Through that sages – the knowers of Brahman – (also) go to the heavenly sphere (liberation) after the fall of this body, being freed (even while living). IV-iv-9: Some speak of it as white, others as blue, grey, green, or red. This path is realised by a Brahmana (knower of Brahman). Any other knower of Brahman who has done good deeds and is identified with the Supreme Light, (also) treads this path.
IV-iv-10: Into blinding darkness (ignorance) enter those who worship ignorance (rites). Into greater darkness, as it were, than that enter those who are devoted to knowledge (the ceremonial portion of the Vedas).
IV-iv-11: Miserable are those worlds enveloped by (that) blinding darkness (ignorance). To them, after death, go those people who are ignorant and unwise.
IV-iv-12: If a man knows the Self as ‘I am this’, then desiring what and for whose sake will he suffer in the wake of the body ?
IV-iv-13: He who has realised and intimately known the Self that has entered this perilous and inaccessible place (the body), is the maker of the universe, for he is the maker of all, (all is) his Self, and he again is indeed the Self (of all).
IV-iv-14: Being in this very body we have somehow known that (Brahman). If not, (I should have been) ignorant, (and) great destruction (would have taken place). Those who know It become immortal, while others attain misery alone.
IV-iv-15: When a man after (receiving instructions from a teacher) directly realises this effulgent Self, the Lord of all that has been and will be, he no longer wishes to hide himself from it.
IV-iv-16: Below which the year with its days rotates, upon that immortal Light of all lights the gods meditate as longevity.
IV-iv-17: That in which the five groups of five and the (subtle) ether are placed, that very Atman I regard as the immortal Brahman. Knowing (Brahman) I am immortal.

Sudarshan,I can assure you that I am already aware that because of my material desires I am...lost.

Regards,
Orlando.

[Sudarshan]

Sudarshan,I can assure you that I am already aware that because of my material desires I am...lost.

Regards,
Orlando.

But who gets lost or not is not decided by us, isnt it? Whichever spiritual teacher you may follow will instruct a unique devotion towards God and an indifference towards the world. But almost everyone will frankly admit that this is a hypothetical condition. Without knowing who God is, it is not possible to satisfy the above condition. Till that point, we can accept our own shortcomings, make a resolve to overcome them - and seek the hand of grace where we feel we cant. Those who cant lift by themselves, must seek oneself to be lifted by God.

If you have an addiction or vice, or continue to indulge in certain sins or undesirable habits - talk about your problems to God, tell him openly that you are in the wrong, and you cannot give them up inspite of your best efforts, and surrender completely - and "command" him to transform you to perfection and give him the freedom to choose his way to do this. That should do it.

[atanu]

Sudarshan,I can assure you that I am already aware that because of my material desires I am...lost.

Regards,
Orlando.

Dear Orlando,


No one is lost. Why do you give up? You know about your own state and not of others. You are candid and others are not. You are young and it is only natural for you to have Rajasic tendencies. That you know You are lost indicates that you are not lost. Those who are truly lost do not even know that that they are lost. For that matter who has crossed over and has gained mastery? The very interest that this subject has generated shows interest of all.

Step by step, with patience, one has to make the mind a friend and bring it under control. The methods are well known: satsang, reading good scripture, pranayama, nama japa, meditation, and enquiry. Slowly tendencies come under control.

Aa p/Kwasae? -la/nsae? -n/Ntail?nasae iv;a/i[n>? iz/vas>? ,
Aa yae =?nyt! sx/ma AayR?Sy g/Vya t&Tsu?_yae Ajgn! yu/xa n¨n! . 7 -018 -07


Those who hear auspicious words, they obtain friendship of Indra and not others. And good words are included in the following verse:


7.018.18 Your numerous enemies, Indra, have been reduced to subjugation; turbulent Bheda, who holds men under subjugation, praising you as guilty of wickedness; hurl, Indra, your sharp thunderbolt against him. [Bheda: one who breaks or separates].


Those who hold on to the Bheda sense as real can never gain the auspicious state.


YV ii. 1. 3.
The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf, he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds. One who is engaged in a struggle should offer the dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes like Visnu and conquers these worlds.



The desires rise in the Self and you are no one to be blamed. Offer the desires worshipfully to the Self. Desires will be fulfilled and the cravings shall vanish in time.


Om Namah Shivayya

[Sudarshan]

That you know You are lost indicates that you are not lost. Those who are truly lost do not even know that that they are lost.


That is a perfect assessment.

[Arjuna]

Very surprised to see some people commenting that Brahmacarya is not essential because the truth is the spirit soul and not the body. With this type of logic, you can justify anything - stealing, murder, dishonesty also have nothing to do with the spirit, so they are also unnecessary? What is the dividing line between "do" and "dont do"?

U again make logical mistakes ;).

Stealing, murder etc are not natural neither for body nor for spirit. They are acts repressing others' freedom. However sexual act done in mutual feeling is not himsa.

If one rejects sex as a pleasure, then he has to reject EVERY pleasurable action. Be it any good food or enjoying nature or even meditation and prayer. Since any pleasure MAY result in attachment. However rejection of pleasures is the same attachment but cunningly reversed. The difference is simple: while normal man at least doesn't think that enjoying sex or food is spiritual, dualistic "sadhaka" abstaining from every pleasure grows tremendous "spiritual" ego. This is a true "siddhi" of such approach.

Everyone is free to choose.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

A

[Arjuna]

The following is from Uddhava Gita

7. At the sight of woman, the Lord’s instrument of delusion, the man of uncontrolled senses, attracted by her charms, falls into the blinding darkness of ignorance, just as the moth attracted by the glow of fire falls into it and perishes.

8. Woman, gold, ornaments, clothes, etc, the creations of Maya offer attraction to man as objects of enjoyment. Their infatuation deprives him of his discriminative vision and generates in him intense attachment to them. He thus becomes a victim to the sense objects as moths to fire, and perishes.


According to Kularnava-tantra, all these enjoyment bring Liberation to the wise, but are sin for the ignorant.
As soon as one gets correct vision of reality as Consciousness only, the illusory antagonism of Atman and jagat vanishes. Perfect saint enjoys the world since the world is non-different from Atman.
For upasakas there are some relative rules which depend on particular tradition. Word of the Guru is the Law. So let us stop here.

[atanu]

According to Kularnava-tantra, all these enjoyment bring Liberation to the wise, but are sin for the ignorant.
As soon as one gets correct vision of reality as Consciousness only, the illusory antagonism of Atman and jagat vanishes. Perfect saint enjoys the world since the world is non-different from Atman.
For upasakas there are some relative rules which depend on particular tradition. Word of the Guru is the Law. So let us stop here.


Pefectly said.

Lord was, it is said, once disturbed by Manmatha, whom He killed but later installed in the Heart. Lord being Heart of all, Manmatha is also the heart of all. That is how the Kalu came there. Love Kalu. Love Shiva.

Anbe Sivam.

[sarabhanga]

Everyone is free to choose.

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.”

Everyone is free to choose, between dharma and adharma. ;)

For those on the true path of dharma:
“Do what Thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law” (i.e. act with full submission to the will of God).

And for those treading their own way in the wilderness of adharma:
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” (i.e. follow your own will and submit to no other authority).

[sarabhanga]

From Gargantua and Pantagruel by Francois Rabelais


The inscription set upon the great gate of Theleme.

Here enter not vile bigots, hypocrites,
Externally devoted apes, base snites,
Puffed-up, wry-necked beasts, worse than the Huns,
Or Ostrogoths, forerunners of baboons:
Cursed snakes, dissembled varlets, seeming sancts,
Slipshod caffards, beggars pretending wants,
Fat chuffcats, smell-feast knockers, doltish gulls,
Out-strouting cluster-fists, contentious bulls,
Fomenters of divisions and debates,
Elsewhere, not here, make sale of your deceits.

Your filthy trumperies
Stuffed with pernicious lies
(Not worth a bubble),
Would do but trouble
Our earthly paradise,
Your filthy trumperies.

Here enter not attorneys, barristers,
Nor bridle-champing law-practitioners:
Clerks, commissaries, scribes, nor pharisees,
Wilful disturbers of the people’s ease:
Judges, destroyers, with an unjust breath,
Of honest men, like dogs, even unto death.
Your salary is at the gibbet-foot:
Go drink there! for we do not here fly out
On those excessive courses, which may draw
A waiting on your courts by suits in law.

Lawsuits, debates, and wrangling
Hence are exiled, and jangling.
Here we are very
Frolic and merry,
And free from all entangling,
Lawsuits, debates, and wrangling.

Here enter not base pinching usurers,
Pelf-lickers, everlasting gatherers,
Gold-graspers, coin-gripers, gulpers of mists,
Niggish deformed sots, who, though your chests
Vast sums of money should to you afford,
Would ne’ertheless add more unto that hoard,
And yet not be content,—you clunchfist dastards,
Insatiable fiends, and Pluto’s bastards,
Greedy devourers, chichy sneakbill rogues,
Hell-mastiffs gnaw your bones, you ravenous dogs.

You beastly-looking fellows,
Reason doth plainly tell us
That we should not
To you allot
Room here, but at the gallows,
You beastly-looking fellows.

Here enter not fond makers of demurs
In love adventures, peevish, jealous curs,
Sad pensive dotards, raisers of garboils,
Hags, goblins, ghosts, firebrands of household broils,
Nor drunkards, liars, cowards, cheaters, clowns,
Thieves, cannibals, faces o’ercast with frowns,
Nor lazy slugs, envious, covetous,
Nor blockish, cruel, nor too credulous,—
Here mangy, pocky folks shall have no place,
No ugly lusks, nor persons of disgrace.

Grace, honour, praise, delight,
Here sojourn day and night.
Sound bodies lined
With a good mind,
Do here pursue with might
Grace, honour, praise, delight.

Here enter you, and welcome from our hearts,
All noble sparks, endowed with gallant parts.
This is the glorious place, which bravely shall
Afford wherewith to entertain you all.
Were you a thousand, here you shall not want
For anything; for what you’ll ask we’ll grant.
Stay here, you lively, jovial, handsome, brisk,
Gay, witty, frolic, cheerful, merry, frisk,
Spruce, jocund, courteous, furtherers of trades,
And, in a word, all worthy gentle blades.

Blades of heroic breasts
Shall taste here of the feasts,
Both privily
And civilly
Of the celestial guests,
Blades of heroic breasts.

Here enter you, pure, honest, faithful, true
Expounders of the Scriptures old and new.
Whose glosses do not blind our reason, but
Make it to see the clearer, and who shut
Its passages from hatred, avarice,
Pride, factions, covenants, and all sort of vice.
Come, settle here a charitable faith,
Which neighbourly affection nourisheth.
And whose light chaseth all corrupters hence,
Of the blest word, from the aforesaid sense.

The holy sacred Word,
May it always afford
T’ us all in common,
Both man and woman,
A spiritual shield and sword,
The holy sacred Word.

Here enter you all ladies of high birth,
Delicious, stately, charming, full of mirth,
Ingenious, lovely, miniard, proper, fair,
Magnetic, graceful, splendid, pleasant, rare,
Obliging, sprightly, virtuous, young, solacious,
Kind, neat, quick, feat, bright, compt, ripe, choice, dear, precious.
Alluring, courtly, comely, fine, complete,
Wise, personable, ravishing, and sweet,
Come joys enjoy. The Lord celestial
Hath given enough wherewith to please us all.

Gold give us, God forgive us,
And from all woes relieve us;
That we the treasure
May reap of pleasure,
And shun whate’er is grievous,
Gold give us, God forgive us.


How the Thelemites were governed, and of their manner of living.

All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed,

Do What Thou Wilt;

because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour.

[saidevo]

kama-gayatri

klim kama-devaya vidmahe
pushpa-banaya dhimahi
tanno 'nangah pracodayat

Considered to be Sri Krishna Himself, the kama-gayatri mantra is obtained from a spiritual master after a disciple is advanced in chanting the Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare mantra. Sri Krishna is described as the transcendental Cupid in the Gopala-tapani Upanishad, attractive to both men and women, not in the material sense but as an individual soul attracted to the Supersoul.

"Actually lust and sex are there in spiritual life, but when the spirit soul is embodied in material elements, that spiritual urge is expressed through the material body and is therefore pervertedly reflected. When one actually becomes conversant in the science of Krishna consciousness, he can understand that his material desire for sex is abominable, whereas spiritual sex is desirable."

"Spiritual sex is of two kinds: one in accordance with the constitutional position of the self and the other in accordance with the object. When one understands the truth about this life but is not completely cleansed of material contamination, he is not factually situated in the transcendental abode, Vrindavana, although he may understand spiritual life. When, however, one becomes free from the sex urges of the material body, he can actually attain the supreme abode of Vrindavana. When one is so situated, he can utter the kama-gayatri and kama-bija mantra."

Sources:
http://www.vedabase.net/tlc/31/en1
http://www.dharmakshetra.com/articles/flute%20song.htm

It seems that Sanatana Dharma has ways and means for every kind of spiritual urge of every kind of human soul. May be this is the reason for the extrapolation of the original six darshanas into different kinds of philosophical systems on the three yoga paths (chiefly the Bhakti Yoga path) and the spawn of varied kinds of upanishads.

[Arjuna]

Everyone is free to choose, between dharma and adharma. ;)

For those on the true path of dharma:
“Do what Thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law” (i.e. act with full submission to the will of God).

And for those treading their own way in the wilderness of adharma:
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” (i.e. follow your own will and submit to no other authority).

Namaste Sarabhanga,

I totally agree with what U've said :).

[mblova]

Do things change once an individual has had their yagnopavit. In relation to pre-marital sex, or even sex when married.

[orlando]

We need not pass judgements on others, but what should we do to ourselves? There cant be much compromise from a personal point of view unless you have planned to continue to exist in samsAra by bowing down to all your own materialistic desires. The desires trap you at every stage and are limitless and exist in all colors and hues - the objective in spiritual growth is to exercise one's will power and channelize these desires slowly towards God. One should first understand what is good and what is pleasant, before such a transition is ever possible. If you convince yourself that good=pleasant always, then there is no room for real growth.

In order to support the Sudarshan's point of view I will quote some verses from Katha Upanishad.
By http://www.visionaire.org/advaitavedant/katha.htm

1-II-1. Different is (that which is) preferable; and different, indeed, is the pleasurable. These two, serving different purposes, blind man. Good accrues to him who, of these two, chooses the preferable. He who chooses the pleasurable falls from the goal.
1-II-2. The preferable and the pleasurable approach man. The intelligent one examines both and separates them. Yea, the intelligent one prefers the preferable to the pleasurable, (whereas) the ignorant one selects the pleasurable for the sake of yoga (attainment of that which is not already possessed) and kshema (the preservation of that which is already in possession).



2-I-2. The unintelligent go after outward pleasures; they fall into the meshes of wide-spread death. But the intelligent, having known immortality to be constant, never covet here objects that are inconstant.


Regards,
Orlando.

[Sudarshan]

U again make logical mistakes ;).

Stealing, murder etc are not natural neither for body nor for spirit. They are acts repressing others' freedom. However sexual act done in mutual feeling is not himsa.

If one rejects sex as a pleasure, then he has to reject EVERY pleasurable action. Be it any good food or enjoying nature or even meditation and prayer. Since any pleasure MAY result in attachment. However rejection of pleasures is the same attachment but cunningly reversed. The difference is simple: while normal man at least doesn't think that enjoying sex or food is spiritual, dualistic "sadhaka" abstaining from every pleasure grows tremendous "spiritual" ego. This is a true "siddhi" of such approach.

Everyone is free to choose.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

A

Addiction to prayer and worship is indeed good, because addiction makes you do more of it. Ideally, those addictions directed at God are to be built up and those not pertaining to it should be filtered. Rejection of pleasure is not the same as falling to the pleasure. Rejection is the strong expression born out of a grim determination to realize God and not repeating the age old vAsaNas that have prevented your release to date. Rejection is discrimination between eternal and the perishable. Pleasure driven addictions are bad because you become unable to escape the clutches of addiction the more you indulge in them. A habitual smoker simply cannot spend a single day without them. Is rejection of cigarettes equivalent to smoking them, in a cunning reversed way?

Your comments on spiritual ego are incorrect. No one sacrifices his pleasures unless his commitment and love for God is firmly rooted. In the absence of such determination, he will be a victim to these addictions again and no scope of such "ego". A vegetarian does not feel a "spiritual ego" for the non killing of animals, likewise it is very natural for devotees to sacrifice the material pleasures and they find delight only in God and nothing else.

[Znanna]

If Godz are ALL, then it seems to me that pleasure also can be included in devotion. What is more pleasurable that the experience of the bright Bliss of the Beloved? I think one would have to be bodiless to know.

But to my upside down point of view (did I mention I think that's because I'm a girl? hehe) loving EVERYTHING is the counterpoint to restriction.

That doesn't really fit with any model except submitting to my poor perception of the will of Godz.

It does, however, allow me vodka :)



ZN
/single, not looking

[Sudarshan]

But to my upside down point of view (did I mention I think that's because I'm a girl? hehe) loving EVERYTHING is the counterpoint to restriction.


Yes, I believe I said once that
1. You can turn back on everything but God.
2. Love everything like you do God.

Very obviously, the latter is easier. But what do you mean love? Why do ppl love their wives and children? What does a man do when he finds that his wife is dating somebody else? Does his love remain firm or vanish? If it vanished why do we call this love which was merely based on reciprocation and had well defined reasons to exist.(opportunistic love) True love remains constant.

God is one being who loves us without cause - regardless of who we are, and is eternal. Love and pleasure is to be found only there. Searching for it elsewhere will have very limited scope.

[Znanna]

Yes, I believe I said once that
1. You can turn back on everything but God.
2. Love everything like you do God.

Very obviously, the latter is easier. But what do you mean love? Why do ppl love their wives and children? What does a man do when he finds that his wife is dating somebody else? Does his love remain firm or vanish? If it vanished why do we call this love which was merely based on reciprocation and had well defined reasons to exist.(opportunistic love) True love remains constant.

God is one being who loves us without cause - regardless of who we are, and is eternal. Love and pleasure is to be found only there. Searching for it elsewhere will have very limited scope.

To me, Love is complete acceptance of the "other" as "self".



ZN

[atanu]

To me, Love is complete acceptance of the "other" as "self".

ZN


The ultimate. So far away. So near.

[Arjuna]

Addiction to prayer and worship is indeed good, because addiction makes you do more of it. Ideally, those addictions directed at God are to be built up and those not pertaining to it should be filtered. Rejection of pleasure is not the same as falling to the pleasure. Rejection is the strong expression born out of a grim determination to realize God and not repeating the age old vAsaNas that have prevented your release to date. Rejection is discrimination between eternal and the perishable.

Discrimination (viveka) as such has nothing to do with rejection. Eternal or perishable are mere concepts of mind based on a time-concept. In fact there is only NOW. When this viveka is there, one never rejects so called "perishable", since there is no need or sense in this. Rejection is ego and illusion.

The realised (Siddha) is free from inner censorship of mind, he spontaneously enjoys everything as form of Samvit.


Is rejection of cigarettes equivalent to smoking them, in a cunning reversed way?

Yes, surely. When addiction is there, there is a point in rejection. When one is free, neither of these are present. A saint may smoke or may not, he isn't disturbed.


Your comments on spiritual ego are incorrect. No one sacrifices his pleasures unless his commitment and love for God is firmly rooted. In the absence of such determination, he will be a victim to these addictions again and no scope of such "ego". A vegetarian does not feel a "spiritual ego" for the non killing of animals, likewise it is very natural for devotees to sacrifice the material pleasures and they find delight only in God and nothing else.

When U get deeper understanding of motivations of people, U see that my comment were to the point ;)...

[Sudarshan]

Discrimination (viveka) as such has nothing to do with rejection. Eternal or perishable are mere concepts of mind based on a time-concept. In fact there is only NOW. When this viveka is there, one never rejects so called "perishable", since there is no need or sense in this. Rejection is ego and illusion.

The realised (Siddha) is free from inner censorship of mind, he spontaneously enjoys everything as form of Samvit.



Yes, surely. When addiction is there, there is a point in rejection. When one is free, neither of these are present. A saint may smoke or may not, he isn't disturbed.



When U get deeper understanding of motivations of people, U see that my comment were to the point ;)...

Ah, the usual climb to the tree top. Who is talking about an enlightened sage and what would he be doing on a forum like this? We are talking about those who are not and what they are supposed to act and think to become a sage. If you think and act as if you are a sage now in some respects , you will possibly never get there.

Drop Adharma-----foundation of religion.
Follow Dharma----in earlier stages of sAdhana
Drop Adharma and dharma-----in asamprajnata samAdhi there is no dharma to follow.
Do as you please.----enlightened.

would be a logical ascension to becoming a sage. Reaching thereupon, there is no dharma and adharma to follow or not follow. Inserting 'do as you please' somewhere in the middle is suicidal.

A saint may intoxicate or not - but he has no reason to do so. He will never do it in public and mislead others. He will set an example for others on how to attain what he attained.

[Arjuna]

///Ah, the usual climb to the tree top. Who is talking about an enlightened sage and what would he be doing on a forum like this? We are talking about those who are not and what they are supposed to act and think to become a sage.///

The proper method is to speak the Truth first. That is shAmbhava-upAya. If one cannot grasp it, then it is explained as a direct method of realization, shAkta-upAya. If this also comes to be of no help, then various indirect pointers are to be given, like various dualistic methods, philosophies and techniques.
The last approach is ANava-upAya, and it cannot lead to realization, but only to some level of understanding. There are pretty many teachers who promote this Anavopaya, but few are there who speak the truth. Truth is usually unpopular, since the ego is very much fond of “being pure”, “spiritually progressing” and “becoming realized”. But these are mere lies, self-deceptions. I have said about growth of “spiritual ego”, but U seem to be unaware of such phenomenon. In this case Anavopaya is verily for U. In a course of time perhaps U come to see its uselessness and turn to direct methods.

///If you think and act as if you are a sage now in some respects, you will possibly never get there.///

HERE&NOW the Consciousness in present and “accessible”. There is nowhere to “get”. If one has a idea of “getting there”, he never succeeds. Atman is not a destination, but the Self.

///Drop Adharma-----foundation of religion.
Follow Dharma----in earlier stages of sAdhana
Drop Adharma and dharma-----in asamprajnata samAdhi there is no dharma to follow.
Do as you please.----enlightened.///

To drop adharma is an advice for pashus (who are devoid of understanding), not for upasakas. Coming to “following Dharma” — what is Dharma? Rejecting the world etc is not. Dharma is to trust and follow the Divine Revelation, i. e. the words of Guru and Agama (Shruti). And this Revelation offers direct path of realization. Rejecting it and clinging to lower doctrines is like having amrita at home but searching to drink water from a dirty pond, in words of Mahanirvana-tantra.

///would be a logical ascension to becoming a sage. Reaching thereupon, there is no dharma and adharma to follow or not follow. Inserting 'do as you please' somewhere in the middle is suicidal.///

I did not say “do as U please”. “Do what thou wilt” is to follow one’s true will, and not momentary desire of ego.

///A saint may intoxicate or not - but he has no reason to do so. He will never do it in public and mislead others. He will set an example for others on how to attain what he attained.///

However we know that saints behaved differently. Many of them smoked, drank or lived with women openly in order to push away all pashus attached to surface and unwilling to see the Truth…

[orlando]

God is one being who loves us without cause - regardless of who we are, and is eternal. Love and pleasure is to be found only there. Searching for it elsewhere will have very limited scope.

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad show that what Sudarshan said is true.
By http://www.advaita.it/library/brihadaranyaka.htm

I-iv-8: This Self is dearer than a son, dearer than wealth, dearer than everything else, and is innermost. Should a person (holding the Self as dear) say to one calling anything else dearer than the Self, ‘(what you hold) dear will die’ – he is certainly competent (to say so) – it will indeed come true. One should meditate upon the Self alone as dear. Of him who meditates upon the Self alone as dear, the dear ones are not mortal.


Regards,
Orlando.

[sm78]

problem is I don't yet know the self. Is self an ideal?

[orlando]

problem is I don't yet know the self. Is self an ideal?

Please read the words in bold taken from the same Upanishad.
By http://www.advaita.it/library/brihadaranyaka.htm

IV-iv-22: That great, birthless Self which is identified with the intellect and is in the midst of the organs, lies in the ether that is within the heart. It is the controller of all, the lord of all, the ruler of all. It does not grow better through good work nor worse through bad work. It is the lord of all, It is the ruler of all beings, It is the protector of all beings. It is the bank that serves as the boundary to keep the different worlds apart. The Brahmanas seek to know It through the study of the Vedas, sacrifices, charity, and austerity consisting in a dispassionate enjoyment of sense-objects. Knowing It alone, one becomes a sage. Desiring this world (the Self) alone, monks renounce their homes. This is (the reason for it); The ancient sages, it is said, did not desire children (thinking), ‘What shall we achieve through children, we who have attained this Self, this world (result).’ They, it is said, renounced their desire for sons, for wealth and for the worlds, and lived a mendicant’s life. That which is the desire for sons is the desire for wealth, and that which is the desire for wealth is the desire for worlds, for both these are but desires. This self is That which has been described as ‘Not this, Not this’. It is imperceptible, for It is never perceived; undecaying, for It never decays; unattached, for It is never attached; unfettered – It never feels pain, and never suffers injury. (it is but proper) that the sage is never overtaken by these two thoughts, ‘I did an evil act for this’, ‘I did a good act for this’. He conquers both of them. Things done or not done do not trouble him.


In original sanskriti the sanskrit word that is translated as Self is Atma.

In the context of the verses I-iv-8 and IV-iv-22 of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad ,the word Atma(which can be translated both as Self and Soul) is refered to the Paramatma(Supreme Soul).
The Supreme Soul/Supreme Self is God.
If you I don't interprete the word atma as advaitins do,be sure that you may consider the world of Brahman/Paramatma a true ideal.
Please read the following verse taken from the same Upanishad.

IV-iii-21: That is his form – beyond desires, free from evils and fearless. As a man, fully embraced by his beloved wife, does not know anything at all, either external or internal, so does this infinite being (self), fully embraced by the Supreme Self, not know anything at all, either external or internal. That is his form – in which all objects of desire have been attained and are but the self, and which is free from desire and devoid of grief.
IV-iii-22: In this state a father is no father, a mother no mother, worlds no worlds, the gods no gods, the Vedas no Vedas. In this state a thief is no thief, the killer of a noble Brahmana no killer, a Chandala no Chandala, a Pulkasa no Pulkasa, a monk no monk, a hermit no hermit. (This form of his) is untouched by good work and untouched by evil work, for he is then beyond all the woes of his heart (intellect).
IV-iii-23: That it does not see in that state is because, though seeing then, it does not see; for the vision of the witness can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can see.
IV-iii-24: That it does not smell in that state is because, though smelling then, it does not smell; for the smeller’s function of smelling can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can smell.
IV-iii-25: That it does not taste in that state is because, though tasting then, it does not taste; for the taster’s function of tasting can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can taste.
IV-iii-26: That it does not speak in that state is because, though speaking then, it does not speak; for the speaker’s function of speaking can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can speak.
IV-iii-27: That it does not hear in that state is because, though hearing then, it does not hear; for the listener’s function of hearing can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can hear.
IV-iii-28: That it does not think in that state is because, though thinking then, it does not think; for the thinker’s function of thinking can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can think.
IV-iii-29: That it does not touch in that state is because, though touching then, it does not touch; for the toucher’s function of touching can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can touch.
IV-iii-30: That it does not know in that state is because, though knowing then, it does not know; for the knower’s function of knowing can never be lost, because it is imperishable. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can know.
IV-iii-31: When there is something else, as it were, then one can see something, one can smell something, one can taste something, one can speak something, one can hear something, one can think something, one can touch something, or one can know something.
IV-iii-32: It becomes (transparent) like water, one, the witness, and without a second. This is the sphere )(state) of Brahman, O Emperor. Thus did Yajnavalkya instruct Janaka: This is its supreme attainment, this is its supreme glory, this is its highest world, this is its supreme bliss. On a particle of this very bliss other beings live.
IV-iii-33: He who is perfect of physique and prosperous among men, the ruler of others, and most lavishly supplied with all human enjoyments, represents greatest joy among men. This human joy multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the manes who have won that world of theirs. The joy of these manes who have won that world multiplied a hundred times makes one unit joy in the world of the celestial minstrels. This joy in the world of the celestial minstrels multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the gods by action – those who have attained their godhead by their actions. This joy of the gods by action multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the gods by birth, as also of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This joy of the gods by birth multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of Prajapati (Viraj), as well as one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This joy in the world of Prajapati multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of Brahman (Hiranyagarbha), as well as of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This indeed is the supreme bliss. This is the state of Brahman, O Emperor, said Yajnavalkya. ‘I give you a thousand (cows), sir. Please instruct me further about liberation itself’. At this Yajnavalkya was afraid that the intelligent Emperor was constraining him to finish with all his conclusions.


Regards,
Orlando.

[sm78]

Namaste Orlando ... Thanks :D

It's times like this I realize you are much younger than me.

[atanu]

///Ah, the usual climb to the tree top. Who is talking about an enlightened sage and what would he be doing on a forum like this? We are talking about those who are not and what they are supposed to act and think to become a sage.///

The proper method is to speak the Truth first. ------

///If you think and act as if you are a sage now in some respects, you will possibly never get there.///

HERE&NOW the Consciousness in present and “accessible”. There is nowhere to “get”. If one has a idea of “getting there”, he never succeeds. Atman is not a destination, but the Self.

----…


HERE&NOW the Consciousness is present and “accessible”. Right Ho.

[orlando]

Namaste Orlando ... Thanks :D

It's times like this I realize you are much younger than me.

Namaste.
Please could you explain to me your statement?

[sm78]

Namaste Orlando,

loving an ideal one can be an ideologist at best

[Sudarshan]

///If you think and act as if you are a sage now in some respects, you will possibly never get there.///

HERE&NOW the Consciousness in present and “accessible”. There is nowhere to “get”. If one has a idea of “getting there”, he never succeeds. Atman is not a destination, but the Self.


"Getting to" is to attain the state, whatever that is. I have never stated anywhere that moksha is a place. No sane mind will think he is already there, or that there is nowhere to reach. That is the pitfall of monism. If I throw a stone at your head, you are possibly going to writh and roll in pain, and that is not what a jnanin experiences. There is a transition which is quite self evident( requiring no proof), which an "illusionist"( or a monist) is unlikely to grasp except for some blind addiction to some dogma.

Bhagavad Gita dispels all these erroneous notions with its vibrant philosophy on Karma Yoga. Dedicating all actions to God instead of one's own pleasure, one acquires no karma that leads to liberation :- a person does have to go through these stages and cant assume that there is nothing to attain.( that would be termed an illogical dogma with no practical utility)

[sm78]

Bhagavad Gita dispels all these erroneous notions with its vibrant philosophy on Karma Yoga. Dedicating all actions to God instead of one's own pleasure, one acquires no karma that leads to liberation

Now who is this God ?

Is he the imagination of a talented artist who drew him in some form say blue with four arms and 2 weapons or naked guy in crematory ?

Or is he our imagination of whom we want to think as God ?

How can offering our actions to our own imagination be selfless ? It sounds more of a type of hypocracy to me.

I think Gita dispels these questions too very well, but few pay attention to those areas and prefer arguing over oneness or manyness of God.

[Sudarshan]

Now who is this God ?

Is he the imagination of a talented artist who drew him in some form say blue with four arms and 2 weapons or naked guy in crematory ?

Or is he our imagination of whom we want to think as God ?

How can offering our actions to our own imagination be selfless ? It sounds more of a type of hypocracy to me.

I think Gita dispels these questions too very well, but few pay attention to those areas and prefer arguing over oneness or manyness of God.

Answers to atIndriya vasTu cannot be imagined in anyway you want. That is where the scriptures come into the picture. The supreme being is known from his characteristics mentioned in the scripture.

One's imagination of God will be based on his adhikAritvam. Common men think of God in certain human concievable forms. These forms have some technical meanings and not wild fancy. A jnanin who obtains a perception of God has better resources at his disposal ~ a typical Bhakti Yogi will realize God as the vasus, the rudrAs, the AdityAs, indra, prajApati ( these are the glories of Brahman) and so on until the complete realization of paramAtma is attained, where all karmas cease...

[sm78]

Answers to atIndriya vasTu cannot be imagined in anyway you want. That is where the scriptures come into the picture. The supreme being is known from his characteristics mentioned in the scripture.

One's imagination of God will be based on his adhikAritvam. Common men think of God in certain human concievable forms. These forms have some technical meanings and not wild fancy. A jnanin who obtains a perception of God has better resources at his disposal ~ a typical Bhakti Yogi will realize God as the vasus, the rudrAs, the AdityAs, indra, prajApati ( these are the glories of Brahman) and so on until the complete realization of paramAtma is attained, where all karmas cease...

Sudarshan, I don't doubt the technicality of the scriptures ~ but we see them with our fanciful mind.

[sm78]

Anyway Bhagvan also lists his vibhutis in this vishwa and the his powers/sampadas which are active in us (love, peace, fearlessness, justice,....). His presence in this world are through his powers. Practicing these in life is Karma Yoga.

When u don't know God, the nature of the karma tells us whether it is yoga or mere bhoga.

Doing stuff actually for self benefit and then mentally offering them to our mental God is ~ I don't know what.

[Sudarshan]

Anyway Bhagvan also lists his vibhutis in this vishwa and the his powers/sampadas which are active in us (love, peace, fearlessness, justice,....). His presence in this world are through his powers. Practicing these in life is Karma Yoga.

When u don't know God, the nature of the karma tells us whether it is yoga or mere bhoga.

Doing stuff actually for self benefit and then mentally offering them to our mental God is ~ I don't know what.

But what is meant by offering to God? How does it matter if you dont know God?

Every thought or action where there is doership is called Karma. Doership is associated with motive. Three entities are behind karma - kartA( doer, mind), kAraNam ( cause, subtle and gross body), kAryam ( action due to indriyAs). As long as kartA is there, there will be kAraNam and kAryam. When one reliquishes kartA, the others gradually fall down.

When I go to office, I expect certain rewards for my work. If company refuses to pay one month, you feel dejected and depressed. This is due to motive. But when all action is dedicated to bhagavat kainkaryam, no misery can affect you, nor there will be any craving for any perishable entity. vairAgya is another name for Karma Yoga.


The thought that all that happens in one's life is solely due to divine will, and seeking God's protection for everything ( instead of people and money) is SaraNagati. If the supreme being does not help you, who else has the ability? If supreme being helps you, who else is needed? When this attitude is engraved deeply into your personality he is called the prapanna.

[sm78]

I am speaking in very practical terms:-

Suppose you work very hard to attain a promotion. Then u get a promotion. Then u mentally offer and pray what u have achieved to God has his will.

What do think of the above? Is this a Karma Yoga?
I know a lot of people who do this.

On contray suppose you spend a lot of energy to help the poor in your neigbourhood. But you do not work with the bhavna that all is God's work.

Is this then not a Karma Yoga ?

I bring this because this is how yoga is practiced beyond words.

[Sudarshan]

I am speaking in very practical terms:-

Suppose you work very hard to attain a promotion. Then u get a promotion. Then u mentally offer and pray what u have achieved to God has his will.

What do think of the above? Is this a Karma Yoga?
I know a lot of people who do this.


Yes, it is. Accepting whatever comes in life on its own accord is in acordance with karma yoga. Trying, failing and brooding isnt.



On contray suppose you spend a lot of energy to help the poor in your neigbourhood. But you do not work with the bhavna that all is God's work.

Is this then not a Karma Yoga ?

I bring this because this is how yoga is practiced beyond words.

This is not Karma Yoga because it is done without correct knowledge. Helping the poor is a noble deed and this will win you heaven and good kingly birth - but it will not help in the cause of spiritual growth. The doer is always present in a person who does not believe in the eternal soul and God, and hence niSkAma karma is impossible. An atheist can at best do sat-karma whose fruits are different.

[sm78]

Ok I disagree with you :)

I think neither is Karma Yoga

[Sudarshan]

Are you saying that "helping the poor" is equivalent regardless of one's attitude? Those who support this are not drawing their conclusions from the Gita, but from their own imagination. To tell you the truth, most God believing people end up doing the same thing that the atheist does, and consequently reap the same material benefits.

[sm78]

No helping the poor or exercising other divine qualities are just good karma or rather right karma. karma is not mechanical thing. what u do effects who u are. so right karma with sadhana (whcih includes devotion) leads to jnana. with jnana only real karma yoga (or bhakti yoga) is possible.

i don't think gita teaches imaginary mental surrender...ow lord wouldn't have taken pain to explain samkhya yoga to jnana yoga to dhyana yoga before presenting the proper idea of SharaNagati ~ that too culminating in the most difficult work.

If sharaNagati was so simple, then Krishna could have left arjuna with his decesion of not fighting and still teach him SharaNagati leading to liberation.

Karma is like a fire ... without the fire there can be no sacrifice, even if one imagines so.

[sm78]

I must say and end it here, that what I say is a contemplation for those of us who thinks themselves as Karmi or Karma Yogi.

If u don't cosider yourself a karma yogi, my points are not for u.

[Sudarshan]

See, Karma and Karma Yoga are different.
The term 'yoga' implies disciplines of jnAnakANDa to lead to the final goal.

The main difference between karma yoga and jnana yoga is their proportion between Karma and Jnana. There could be no basis for yoga of any kind out a rigorous and full fledged discipline like aStAnga yoga. Since nobody can be without karma, Karma Yoga is an essential part of Jnana Yoga. Very simply put, until one is not beyond the body conciousness of the stUla SarIra, he cannot be called jnAna yogi, but only as a karma yogi.

When one transcends the limitations of the physical body through yoga, he practices Jnana Yoga where he seeks to eliminate the limitations posed by the subtle body and the mind(intellect). Such a yogi realizes his "self". In VA's terminology, Bhakti yoga commences only with self realization. Self realization automatically culminates in the viSvarUpa darSana, meditating on which one gets moxa.

Helping the poor etc are anga(useful aids) of Karma Yoga where the goal is to puify ones chitta.

Until a man has purified his chitta through Karma Yoga that he is a fountain of goodness, which leads to partial vision of God by itself, all talks of Jnana is just empty theory.

[mblova]

So then is pre-marital sex seen as a VICE.

How does this affect ones spiritual being and ones relationship to GOD.




off topic but do any of you guys recommend books on an intro to Hinduism?

[Sudarshan]

One's imagination of God will be based on his adhikAritvam. Common men think of God in certain human concievable forms. These forms have some technical meanings and not wild fancy. A jnanin who obtains a perception of God has better resources at his disposal ~ a typical Bhakti Yogi will realize God as the vasus, the rudrAs, the AdityAs, indra, prajApati ( these are the glories of Brahman) and so on until the complete realization of paramAtma is attained, where all karmas cease...

I must also point out that these 33 aspects of Brahman are symbolized in the Tamil alphabets. Those who know Tamil know that

a) The twelve "uyir ezhutu" ( vowels) denote the twelve AdityAs.
b) The Ayudha ezhutu is nicely given a symbol to suit the three eyed Rudra.( Shankara)
c) The 18 remaining consonants( mei ezhutu) represent the ten rudrAs and eight vasus.
d) kuttialikaram represents indra
e) kuttialukaram denotes prajApati

The whole description is quite detailed though I have just mentioned the basics.

The 51 alphabets in sanskrit is further division of these 33 alphabets in Tamil, although this is a disjoint set( sanskrit for eg does not have zh). It is held that sanskrit represents the Jnana Yoga, and Tamil, the Karma Yoga and hence contains much lesser symbols.(principles) These two languages form a pair and are the oldest living languages, and their origin is pre historic.

[atanu]

-----
------- If company refuses to pay one month, you feel dejected and depressed. This is due to motive. But when all action is dedicated to bhagavat kainkaryam, no misery can affect you, nor there will be any craving for any perishable entity. vairAgya is another name for Karma Yoga.
-----.

Hehe. This example is somewhat similar to the stone hitting example you gave to Arjuna. Do you draw the parallel and do you see the irony?

[Sudarshan]

Hehe. This example is somewhat similar to the stone hitting example you gave to Arjuna. Do you draw the parallel and do you see the irony?

Yes, you should draw the line: In the former ( hit by a stone) you cannot overcome the limitations imposed by the body. Even if you wanted to ignore it you cannot. One who can, can talk about theory of Atman being unaffected or ever present or something like that.

The latter situation of sacrificing the payment is mental, which is more easier for most, though if the trend continues month after month one is likely to break apart. It is like "strong in mind, weak in flesh".

[orlando]

So then is pre-marital sex seen as a VICE.

How does this affect ones spiritual being and ones relationship to GOD.



?

Dear Mblova,please read the following verse from Katha Upanishad.


1-II-24. None who has not refrained from bad conduct, whose senses are not under restraint, whose mind is not collected or who does not preserve a tranquil mind, can attain this Self through knowledge.


I strongly suggest you to read the whole Katha Upanishad at http://www.advaita.it/library/katha.htm

I think it will help you a lot.

Regards,
Orlando.

[atanu]

Yes, you should draw the line: In the former ( hit by a stone) you cannot overcome the limitations imposed by the body. Even if you wanted to ignore it you cannot. One who can, can talk about theory of Atman being unaffected or ever present or something like that.

The latter situation of sacrificing the payment is mental, which is more easier for most, though if the trend continues month after month one is likely to break apart. It is like "strong in mind, weak in flesh".


Do you mean to say that a jnani should be senseless? Then a man under drug or chloroform would qualify best.

And, frankly speaking, I do not see any difference in the two examples. Both events, being hit by a stone or not receiving a paycheck, will be perceived as unpleasant in the consciousness.


But Jnani knows that the consciousness does not get altered because of perception of pain/unpleasantness and his pain in consciousness does not destroy his samadrishti.

Om Namah Shivayya

[Sudarshan]

Do you mean to say that a jnani should be senseless? Then a man under drug or chloroform would qualify best.

And, frankly speaking, I do not see any difference in the two examples. Both events, being hit by a stone or not receiving a paycheck, will be perceived as unpleasant in the consciousness.


But Jnani knows that the consciousness does not get altered because of perception of pain/unpleasantness and his pain in consciousness does not destroy his samadrishti.

Om Namah Shivayya

I dont know about you, but according to my beliefs, jnanin will not even feel anything unpleasant in the consciousness. There could be no question of any residual karma after obtaining God knowledge. Since the cause of anything other than "brahmAnanda" is karma, there is no question of even going to the idea of samadristi. Some people do bring up the concept of prArabdha, which is plain illogical. Given that the prakriti kartA exists no more on dawn of knowledge , what can prArabdha do? Karma cannot act without a 'material' doer.( prArabdha or sancita)

The examples were given from the point of view of man, not jnanin. Simple logic will tell you that "the ability to part with some money" is much easier than "sustaining some heavy body blows". As an example, try this: You are waylaid by a thief who has a knife and demands all your money. Unless one is a plain idiot ( or strong enough to overpower him) you will avoid the painful knife for the money.

[atanu]

I dont know about you, but according to my beliefs, jnanin will not even feel anything unpleasant in the consciousness. -------

Dear Sudarshan,

I feel that your anger has subsided.

Jnanin does not feel anything in Turiya. But has full awareness with Turiya consciousness in Turiyatita.

All gods are also said to be in Turiyatita, in full yoga with Self and omniscient. Lord Krishna says that those who torture their body give me pain (not exact translation). How so? Is He not a jnanin? Rama is known to have cried on loss of Sita. Is He not the Supreme God?

Else, what is the use of Turiya? --- if one were to become like a stone? The purpose is not to become unconscious but to become a master of the roaming mind, knowing that Turiya is the sustainer in all states. Again this may depend on destiny as per Niyati, a Jnani may be continuosly in Turiya and another may be frolicking. Jnani is one, who simply has lost the attachment to body, but surely has not lost the Pragnya.


Om

[atanu]

-----
The examples were given from the point of view of man, not jnanin. Simple logic will tell you that "the ability to part with some money" is much easier than "sustaining some heavy body blows". As an example, try this: You are waylaid by a thief who has a knife and demands all your money. Unless one is a plain idiot ( or strong enough to overpower him) you will avoid the painful knife for the money.

Yes, this example is given in a Upanishad. Love of life is the dearest. No doubt.

[Sudarshan]

Dear Sudarshan,

I feel that your anger has subsided.

Jnanin does not feel anything in Turiya. But has full awareness with Turiya consciousness in Turiyatita.

All gods are also said to be in Turiyatita, in full yoga with Self and omniscient. Lord Krishna says that those who torture their body give me pain (not exact translation). How so? Is He not a jnanin? Rama is known to have cried on loss of Sita. Is He not the Supreme God?

Else, what is the use of Turiya? --- if one were to become like a stone? The purpose is not to become unconscious but to become a master of the roaming mind, knowing that Turiya is the sustainer in all states. Again this may depend on destiny as per Niyati, a Jnani may be continuosly in Turiya and another may be frolicking. Jnani is one, who simply has lost the attachment to body, but surely has not lost the Pragnya.


Om

These maybe your personal opinions but not backed up by any authority -if so you are free to show citations from Shankara or others. Advaita categorically holds Turiya as NB, and rest as mithyA. Jagat is just like a snake superimposed on a rope due to imagination. You cannot claim to see the snake and the rope, without contradicting your own thesis. Any one claiming so is under a big illusion himself.

Yes, these are views of some modern advaitins not conversant with classical Advaita. They end up saying a lot of things, and it is very easy to show that the above hypothesis is that of VA and not Advaita. Turiya and Prajna being eternal implies dualty is always present.

You have already contradicting yourself heavily when you said - "All gods are also said to be in Turiyatita, in full yoga with Self and omniscient. ". Where is the concept of many gods in Turiyatita, which is mere oneness and undifferentiated consciousness? Do these gods know each other, if they are one and the same why call them "many gods"?

[atanu]

------
You have already contradicting yourself heavily when you said - "All gods are also said to be in Turiyatita, in full yoga with Self and omniscient. ". Where is the concept of many gods in Turiyatita, which is mere oneness and undifferentiated consciousness? Do these gods know each other, if they are one and the same why call them "many gods"?


A lamp and a table are both forms of consciousness. In waking state one does not go and attempt to obtain light from a table.

If knowledge of Self (Advaita) makes one forget this then woe to such knowledge. And if Upanishads were teaching this and if Shankara was teaching this then ------- ha ha. Yes in Samadhi, wherein the knowledge is obtained nothing is known.

But that is not a bondage. It is about freedom.


Please do not form your own opinions. Do not try to understand Advaita by reading its critiques. If you are sincere, start by reading Tripura Rahasya or Yoga Vashista. There is no difference in VA and Advaita, except that Advaita holds that for mukti the Advaita knowledge (knowledge of the Self) is essential. VA seems to differ.

If Self has to be known one cannot remain different from it. But one established in Self has no more localised ego, so why should the Self be bound any more? It is ever liberated, causing no change in the Turiya, which is changeless.

Advaita is about knowledge of the Self and the knowledge that it is na lipayate. About freedom.


Om Namah Shivayya

[atanu]

----- Turiya and Prajna being eternal implies dualty is always present.

-----

Why not? Like you are not one being. Your leg is one and your arm another?

Is it like that?

Om Namah Shivayya

[Sudarshan]

Why not? Like you are not one being. Your leg is one and your arm another?

Is it like that?

Om Namah Shivayya

ooh, you did not understand that Prajna is vyavahAra and Turiya is paramArta. If vyavahAra is eternal, it is unsublatable, and breaks down the fundamental positions of Advaita. Also, it means that Advaita will now support nitya samsArins ( eternally damned souls in vyavahAra), so Advaita becomes exactly Dvaita.

[Sudarshan]

Please do not form your own opinions. Do not try to understand Advaita by reading its critiques. If you are sincere, start by reading Tripura Rahasya or Yoga Vashista. There is no difference in VA and Advaita, except that Advaita holds that for mukti the Advaita knowledge (knowledge of the Self) is essential. VA seems to differ.


None of these texts are authority by any breadth of imagination. Who has used and referred to them? I read Advaita directly from Shankaracharya, and I have all his original works. You think he did not know Advaita?

Knowledge of the Atman is necessary in any system. Atman, however is not the Self( which is greatly similar to Atma though), but a superior entity. Self Realization is considered as an inferior stage in VA. Self is the real "I" in Atanu ( which suffers and feels pain here, which is not Atma), and Atma is God, the ever free entity. The relation between Self and Atma must be known to be liberated, which needs requiring to know the self and God.

[atanu]

----
Knowledge of the Atman is necessary in any system. Atman, however is not the Self( which is greatly similar to Atma though), -----.


Since title of the thread is a misnomer I have moved elsewhere.

However, I am a bit surprised since Self is not there in our scripture, only Atma is there. We just use Self for Atma, which has to be known!


Regards

[Atman]

[quote=Sudarshan;8321]Activities like masturbation, pre marital sex, prostitution, smoking, drugs etc are not sins, because they do not hurt others. These are addictions which must be given up if one aspires for spiritual growth.

Masturbation is considered a 'vice', or sexual sin, read up on it at celibacy.info, and the link with the original garden of eden.