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yajvan
15 August 2010, 02:23 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I was just thinking. What if you wished to change present time and society. It seems reasonable you would have to change the past.

So I was thinking what would I do if I could drop something of ~today~ back in time of yester-year.
Let's say I was able to drop a slide ruler on the desk of Sir Issac Newton. I say a slide rule because it would not need any batteries to operate and it is my opinion Newton
would be able to figure out the logic on how to use this device. ( I used one in college - when I went to school there were no calculators, let alone computers).

So my point or idea is to drop something back in time that could be used, be practical, and still have an impact. Here is another idea - say you dropped a simple Bolt and Nut
arrangement back say 2,000 years ago. How would that revolutionize technology then and progress society overall?
Another is to drop a very good telescope ( Celestron ® ) into the office of Leonardo Di Vinci. Sure he had optics at that time but what of a telescope that allowed him to really
explore the stars, then pass this on to the next high-minded astronomer.

What if one gave a lighter or matches to a cave man ... If he didn't eat it :) perhaps in a few days he'd figure out how it worked and he would have fire say 500,000 years earlier.

What if one gave a computer to one back in time? Without electricity nothing would occur. If in fact it was given in a time frame of Thomas Edison ( 1850's to the 1930's)
I still think it would break due to 'dirty electricity' - spikes, not always 120 volts, etc.

Do you have any ideas on what you would place or 'drop off' that would not cause too much of a stir but would advance the overall thinking or technology by 100's of years?


praṇām

Eastern Mind
15 August 2010, 03:44 PM
Vannakkam Yajvan: This is food for thought, yes. Although the past determines the present, it doesn't control the future, (not that you said it did, just pointing this out, as each individual via the process of decision making can alter the future. Take the case of a few years ago when scientists and politicians chose to keep the smallpox virus. That was a fairly major decision. Of course you are not the first to ponder such things. There are many lists on the net such as this one: http://inventors.about.com/od/famousinventions/tp/topteninvention.htm

From a religious point of view, whoever discovered that rock can contain a mystical vibration (murthy worship) and have it stay in one place this way certainly changed our religion. So that would be my choice off the top of my head. Of course the first being to sit in a cave and REALIZE is also right up there. I also admire incense as an invention. Certainly somewhat of a higher plane than its explosive counterpart, gunpowder. One induce himsa, the other when misused ahimsa. We could have done without that one.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
15 August 2010, 06:06 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté EM,





Vannakkam Yajvan: This is food for thought, yes. Although the past determines the present, it doesn't control the future

Yes, I see your point.

I often thought what if the veda-s were introduced earlier to very influential people. It is my notion that the pure veda-s given to people without their ability to comprehend the significance of them, would not bring much merit and not change things much. Yet if the 'delivery' of the veda-s came with a muni to decode the knowledge then I think this would be impactful.
Yet for my original thought on this, I was looking for technology or an object i.e. the incense you suggested, that would allow the intellect of that person getting this object to be invigorated with a new approach. From this and the 'natural selection' of things, a better way of life, thinking, doing would unfold.

Another thing that would be impactful but could not be sustained is ice. Ice would allow the gathering and preserving of food for longer periods. One would not have to forage and hunt for food daily. But you say ice has always been around. Perhaps, but not in the warmer climates especially in summer. Again this could not be sustained as one block of ice could not be cooled. It would melt in a day and that would be the end of the impact.
Refrigeration also would not work as if we talk some 1,000 years ago, no electricity was available.

Yet this ice used to be a big deal - it was the 3rd largest export in the USA in the 1800's. It could last about a season. It was wrapped in sawdust for export and hauled on boats. Very interesting stuff. In the USA refrigeration changed American life. People could work farther from home as food would stay longer in their 'Ice Box' ; People could work in hotter places ( using Air conditioning), etc. It had a big impact on American society.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
15 August 2010, 06:51 PM
Vannakkam:

The discovery of agriculture itself changed the way humans live drastically enabling cities to develop, and much more free time. The transition from hunting and gathering was relatively quick. Free time enabled religion and arts to occur. On the west coast of Canada where fish was plentiful enabled all the totem poles, singing, etc. But I tend to look at it as a religious thing. What things are specific to developing out religion? the uses of hemp or other fibres as ropes and the harnessing of elephants for strength must have really aided in the building of some of the huge stone temples of Tamil Nadu.

Of course, the computer age is changing things today making our teachings more available to everyone. You can learn a new word by the click of a mouse. Not too long ago you and I could never have had this discussion.

Another thing like incense is the invention of all the wonderful musical instruments of India. There are some 23 or more varieties of drums lone, let alone things like nadaswaram (http://www.carnatica.net/sangeet/nagaswaram-art.htm) and the melodious stringed instuments like veena. Historians don't even know how old some of these things are.

Aum namasivaya

atanu
16 August 2010, 02:10 AM
If such a facility was made available to me (by Shri Yajvan), I would wish to change all my kukarma to sukarma.:)

Om Namah Shivaya

Eastern Mind
16 August 2010, 06:20 AM
Ice would allow the gathering and preserving of food for longer periods.

Vannakkam: Ice trivia

Speaking of ice, I had an uncle who was a bit of a traditionalist, and cut a few large blocks each winter, then put them in straw about 10 to 15 feet down inside a cavern he had dug under his pumphouse. He probably held the tradition for 20 odd years before finally giving in and buying a refrigerator. His blocks lasted at least until mid-July, perhaps longer, when the fresh vegetables started coming in.

Have you heard of the expensive pure water glacier ice they dig out from under 3 miles or so of glaciers? It is so compacted from the pressure that the volume increases as it melts, and it takes longer to melt. Not sure if they're still selling it.

The Amarnath Ice lingam has already melted this year, which is the shortest duration of it in recorded history.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
16 August 2010, 06:27 AM
The past is the thing in which our bricks have been laid. I wouldn't be able to change one thing...because even a subtle change could potentially change things we could never foresee.

But for fun...imagine that whatever I did would only bring more positive futures...I would go back and hug N. Tesla...and tell him to strive on.

I would not allow Edison to steal his work...and I would support him until I died. Doing whatever I could to aid him.

Because truly, the treatment of Tesla is one thing which has troubled me my whole life.

yajvan
16 August 2010, 10:41 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu


I would wish to change all my kukarma to sukarma.:) Om Namah Shivaya

Yes, this would be a most worthy boon.

For those unfamiliar with these words, atanu-ji is suggesting changing ku+karma or those actions/desires (karma) that are deficient (kuš)
to ones that are su+ kāma i.e. su = right , virtuous + kāma = desire for; hence having virtuous desires.

praṇām


words
ku was once signified 'how strange' - hence kukarma would then be = to strange actions or strange desires.

satay
16 August 2010, 11:35 AM
namaskar,
I wonder if an 'engine' was dropped at the door step of a cave man. An automobile, or a blueprint of a plane or design and concepts of a semi-conductor. Or perhaps just some advanced tools used to survive in a jungle or on water. What would happen?

saidevo
16 August 2010, 12:42 PM
namaste everyone.

About ten years ago, when I was not even this much informed about the undiscovered scientific glory of Hindu Dharma, I used to eagerly subscribe to the speculations of Erich von Daniken in such books of his as 'Chariots of the Gods?' He essentially speculated that ET beings visited our Earth in the past and it was them who taught our primitive people the technology behind marvels that we wonder at, such as the Egyptian pyramids, Stonehenge etc. Now I am inclined towards dismissing his speculations as anachronistic fantasies and believe that the people of our ancient civilizations were really capable of building their memorial edifices that we marvel at today.

Many of the huge and imposing Hindu stone temples of TamilnADu were actually constructed during the reign of the Cholas--particularly RAjarAja and his son RAjendra. Author shrI Kalki in his Tamil historical saga 'Ponniyin Selvan' has described those events. The kings ordered the erstwhile dilapidating brick works of the temples to be changed into what they called 'kaTRaLi'--stone temples. It is awesome that such stone moulding, welding and joining technologies existed in the 9th and 10th century CE in TamilnADu. The English translation of Kalki's masterpiece can be read at: http://www.wattpad.com/121249-ponniyin-selvan-english-part-1

Generally, I am nostalgic about the life in ancient India, and would readily agree to travel back in time if there is an offer. Nevertheless, I wonder, by Yajvan's idea of anachronistic fantasy, what would happen to the world if we receive tomorrow's technology today.

atanu
16 August 2010, 12:57 PM
namaste everyone.

----Nevertheless, I wonder, by Yajvan's idea of anachronistic fantasy, what would happen to the world if we receive tomorrow's technology today.


hari? o?
namasté atanu
Yes, this would be a most worthy boon.
----

Namaste yajvanji (and saidevoji)

Another question is whether time travel is possible with our gross body and carrying gross equipments to be dropped into a past time -- that my friends are wishing. Various stories in Yoga Vasista and other smriti relate time travel, which is actually a shift through consciousness layer. Special mention must be made of the story of Leela who travels with Saraswati to different time domains. But all of those were with sukshma body and never with gross body.

What can however be done is that you enter the mind of Newton with a subtle sarira and change him or control him to do your bidding; telling him about the Relativity etc. So, Relativity theory will be predated some 200 years and in the next 300 years upto the present time, the avidya (science of objects) will surpass the avidya that you and me know. But where will that leave you? When you come back you may not be able to fit in.There may be infinite number of mind-boggling possibilities

So. nayasurya has correctly said what she said.

I have not heard any Hindu scripture teaching that individuals can alter the master plan laid by Ishwara. It is like saying that a pot will alter the design of potter. Brahma Sutra teaches that a freed individual abiding in Brahmaloka will share equal bliss of Brahman but will not be able to create etc. On the other hand, a stitha pragnya Jnani will have no "I" to say that I changed the future.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
16 August 2010, 04:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté satay,


namaskar,
I wonder if an 'engine' was dropped at the door step of a cave man. An automobile, or a blueprint of a plane or design and concepts of a semi-conductor. Or perhaps just some advanced tools used to survive in a jungle or on water. What would happen?

This is what happened the last time we gave them the blueprints... ( I guess they could have done better?)

http://www.exoticcars.ws/cars/ferrari-enzo-doors-open.jpg



praṇām

Eastern Mind
16 August 2010, 05:57 PM
Vannakkam: Where'd you get the picture of my car ... my second car?

Vroom!

Aum

yajvan
16 August 2010, 07:23 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Another thing that would be impactful but could not be sustained is ice. Ice would allow the gathering and preserving of food for longer periods. One would not have to forage and hunt for food daily. But you say ice has always been around.


I found this program to be excellent... It is how scientists got to Absolute Zero (I mean really really close to 273º below 0º).
The history of man-made 'cold'.

A 2 hour NOVA special on harnessing 'cold' - the full program on HULU
http://www.hulu.com/watch/63745/nova-absolute-zero

There is also a condensed version ( you can choose the parts to watch) in Quicktime or Windows Media Player format
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/zero/program.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/zero/program.html)

praṇām

saidevo
16 August 2010, 10:15 PM
namaste everyone.

Atanu's reference in post 11, to the possibility of time travel using only the sUkShma sharIra--subtle body, brings up some thoughts:

• Suppose we have a star located 1,000 light-years away from us. This would mean that we would be looking at the star's past, as it existed on its surface, 1,000 years ago. The marvel is that mortal man is able to build bhautika upakaraNas--material instruments, that can sense time across the space of the universe.

• Expanding on this fact, we find that time is mapped linearly in the physical plane between the star and the earth. That is, the past time of the star is propagated, as it were, across space.

• We can have a whole lot of spiritual implications of this fact which we shall discuss in a separate thread, but for the purpose of this thread we find that we can have a glance at the past in the order of decreasing time as we move linearly across the physical plane to the target.

• Reversing this fact, we can say that the past time of our Earth can be known across several other celestial spheres located on a line with our Earth. Theoretically an infinite number of such lines are possible, which means that time is propaged in the form of spherical waves across space.

• Suppose there is a RShi living in a planet 1000 light years away from our Earth. He can look at our past 1,000 years ago, and travelling towards or away from us, using the power of his consciousness, he might virtually write a genuine history of the Earth spanning yugas.

• The point is that even the RShi CANNOT change the past; he can only observe and document it. The past cannot be changed because it is a creation of the Universal Consciousness, which, unlike the creations we make in our dream worlds, is permanently impressed on a relative reality from sRShTi--Creation, to pralaya--dissolution of the universe.

What can we discuss about if and how the future time is mapped in the same way across space?

Mudvayne
17 August 2010, 09:59 PM
Is it true that time travel is possible?.

I read that has a relation with astral body, but not sure.

satay
17 August 2010, 10:29 PM
Who said material things are not good? :)


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté satay,



This is what happened the last time we gave them the blueprints... ( I guess they could have done better?)

http://www.exoticcars.ws/cars/ferrari-enzo-doors-open.jpg



praṇām

kd gupta
17 August 2010, 11:37 PM
Think on the other hand . I feel todays science as nothing . A shashtriji [ an astrologer too ] at Ayodhya told me about a bad future happening about me , seeing my kundali . I remember that happened . A palmist can also tell , seeing the palm , I have tested .

yajvan
18 August 2010, 11:10 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I was thinking of another 'leave behind' say for around the 9th century. Leaving a compass for those explorers that ventured out.
Again a small thing that would not make a big splash, but would be a most valuable tool.

http://www.navis.gr/navaids/images/compass.jpg

just an idea.

praṇām

Adhvagat
10 October 2010, 11:38 AM
namaste everyone.

Atanu's reference in post 11, to the possibility of time travel using only the sUkShma sharIra--subtle body, brings up some thoughts:

• Suppose we have a star located 1,000 light-years away from us. This would mean that we would be looking at the star's past, as it existed on its surface, 1,000 years ago. The marvel is that mortal man is able to build bhautika upakaraNas--material instruments, that can sense time across the space of the universe.

• Expanding on this fact, we find that time is mapped linearly in the physical plane between the star and the earth. That is, the past time of the star is propagated, as it were, across space.

• We can have a whole lot of spiritual implications of this fact which we shall discuss in a separate thread, but for the purpose of this thread we find that we can have a glance at the past in the order of decreasing time as we move linearly across the physical plane to the target.

• Reversing this fact, we can say that the past time of our Earth can be known across several other celestial spheres located on a line with our Earth. Theoretically an infinite number of such lines are possible, which means that time is propaged in the form of spherical waves across space.

• Suppose there is a RShi living in a planet 1000 light years away from our Earth. He can look at our past 1,000 years ago, and travelling towards or away from us, using the power of his consciousness, he might virtually write a genuine history of the Earth spanning yugas.

• The point is that even the RShi CANNOT change the past; he can only observe and document it. The past cannot be changed because it is a creation of the Universal Consciousness, which, unlike the creations we make in our dream worlds, is permanently impressed on a relative reality from sRShTi--Creation, to pralaya--dissolution of the universe.

What can we discuss about if and how the future time is mapped in the same way across space?

Saidevo, scientifically this is a very interesting concept.

If we somehow develop a way to capture this information (be it light or whatever) that was beamed out of the Earth ages ago, we would be able to know its past perfectly. Perhaps watch the Ramayana again? :)

Some kind of Chronophotography, hehehe.

It's also interesting when we look through this point of view because only our very central self experiences the world in its manner, meaning that my father 10 meters away from me is just not in another space, but another time as well.

Crossing these understandings with Vedic teachings is really fascinating!

saidevo
10 October 2010, 08:46 PM
namaste PI.



It's also interesting when we look through this point of view because only our very central self experiences the world in its manner, meaning that my father 10 meters away from me is just not in another space, but another time as well.

Crossing these understandings with Vedic teachings is really fascinating!


You are right. Yes, your father is in another time, however tiny the interval is. We know by Science and experience that time decreases from east to west along the earth's horizontal axis at 4 minutes a degree, due to earth's rotation on its vertical axis. Thus, apart from the universal time propagated across space, the local time propagated around also changes with space.

Perhaps some smart young person can work out a schematic relationship of time, taking into account all these components. What is of even greater interest is: Where is the location of the future time in this schema? Prima facie, it is not in the 3-D of physical space, but maybe in the expanded dimensions of inner space: that is, the future is mapped across the subtle space of astral, mental and causal worlds in the seven planes of the cosmos schema?

In one sense we may say that the physical Sun dispenses time in our solar system across and around its physical space; and the inner Sun dispenses and tracks all time through the space of the subtler worlds.

saidevo
08 December 2010, 10:45 AM
namaste.

In the Christian religious film 'Prince of Darkness' (1987), a concept is advanced:

• Tachyon is a subatomic particle that travels faster than light. Anything traveling faster than the speed of light would appear to be going backward in time.

• A future scientist calculates the exact spot that the Earth occupied in space in the past, given trajectory and speed. He then beams a tachyon signal at that spot, transmitting video information backwards through time.

• For us to receive as electrical impulses, neural stimulus. To show us what's going to happen. A sort of remote camera view of the future, so that we can change it.

This is the explanation given by a team of scientists who investigate a mysterious cylinder that has landed itself in the basement of a church, an incident that coincides with the Biblic prediction that Satan kept in prison would be released in future and wreck his vengeance against God through man.

What I am interested is the degree of absurdity and possibility of the above concept of science as a means of travelling back in time and remote-sensing and transmitting the future. Any thoughts?