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Arav
21 August 2010, 02:59 PM
I would like to know if there are any schools of Shaivism that are monistic and believe in non-dualism. I just "converted" to Hinduism and Shaivism is my favorite sect, but I also like non-dualism (advaita). Also, to Shaiva's accept converts? Thank you.

ScottMalaysia
21 August 2010, 07:47 PM
Most, if not all schools of Shaivism follow Advaita.

Since you've just converted to Hinduism and prefer Shaivism, then I'd recommend you take a look at the Himalayan Academy (http://www.himalayanacademy.com). They have heaps of information about both Shaivism and Hinduism in general. I'd recommend you look at their 'Publications' tab. If you go to 'Online Books' you can read a lot of books about Hinduism. The three particularly recommended for converts are Dancing with Siva, Living with Siva and Living with Siva. There are also children's books which are very good for those who are completely new to Hinduism.

To answer your question about converts, yes, Shaivism does accept converts. You can find a book called How to Become a Hindu on the Himalayan Academy site which will tell you all you need to know about conversion.

Riverwolf
21 August 2010, 08:42 PM
Most, if not all schools of Shaivism follow Advaita.

Since you've just converted to Hinduism and prefer Shaivism, then I'd recommend you take a look at the Himalayan Academy (http://www.himalayanacademy.com). They have heaps of information about both Shaivism and Hinduism in general. I'd recommend you look at their 'Publications' tab. If you go to 'Online Books' you can read a lot of books about Hinduism. The three particularly recommended for converts are Dancing with Siva, Living with Siva and Living with Siva. There are also children's books which are very good for those who are completely new to Hinduism.

To answer your question about converts, yes, Shaivism does accept converts. You can find a book called How to Become a Hindu on the Himalayan Academy site which will tell you all you need to know about conversion.

However, what must be understood is that, while the "With Siva" trilogy is great, it's also very traditionalistic, and may appear rather... overtly strict about things at first. (I don't personally subscribe to that kind of strictness, personally.) Those books still come recommended, though, at the very least as sources of good information. Subramuniyaswami was very wise, indeed.

Alise
22 August 2010, 03:43 AM
Namaste,

Shaiva Siddhanta (Himalayan Academy) is monistic theism, as I understand it's monism mixed with dualism but I may be wrong. Himalayan Academy materials are good, Riverwolf's right 'with Shiva' trilogy is really traditional but for example I don't take them as rules but pick & chose that are good for me & what's not, maybe you can do the same.


Have a nice day,
~Alice

Arav
22 August 2010, 07:44 AM
Are there two diferent types of Shaiva Siddhanta? Because when I look it up I get a dualistic philosophy and a monist philosophy. And by what you all are saying Shaiva Siddanta Chrurch follows the monist version, right?

Eastern Mind
22 August 2010, 08:12 AM
Vannakkam all:

Subramuniya's books weren't really written as 'rules' although sometimes it does come across that way. Consider it more as 'suggestions'. Clearly every individual person's case is different. This 'rule' thing is a western concept that many western adoptives and converts have a hard time dropping especially if raised in a 'rule' religion where you have the golden RULE, the ten COMMANDMENTS, etc. In Sanatana Dharma, things like the yamas and niyamas or the Tirukkurral are considered wise guidelines. If it doesn't fit your gut, or individual circumstance, then so be it. You are your own guide, and experience is the teacher.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
22 August 2010, 01:34 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté

It was mentioned above that most if not all schools of Śaivism are advaita. I have a different view on this matter as my teachings and
study suggest otherwise. Yet this adoration of śiva has been around for thousands of years - we find this in the rāmāyama, the mahābhārata, not to mention the āgama's and the ved.

There are considered 6 main schools ( with multiple sub-sections and divisions) :

śaiva siddhānta - as mentioned
pāśupata śaivism
kaśmir śaivism - of which I am most familiar
vīra śaivism
siddha śaivism
śiva advaita I mention these so the HDF reader that has interest can do some research as they see fit.

Let me offer the following for one's consideration and my orientation on this matter.

It's interesting to note there are a few views on how durvāsā ṛiṣi divided up the teaching of Śaivāgama (Śiva-āgama-s). One view is the triad is advaita ( non-dual), dvaita (dual) and dbaitādvaita ( non-dual +dual). From this view ( offered by svāmī Lakṣman-jū) we know the following:

Tryambakanātha received advaita ( non-dual) from durvāsā ṛiṣi
Amardaka received dvaita (dual) from durvāsā ṛiṣi
Srinatha received dvaitādvaita (non-dual +dual) from durvāsā ṛiṣi One must ask then who is durvāsā ṛiṣi ? . Svāmī lakṣman-jū from the kaśmir śaivism school informs us of the following:

svāmī lakṣman-jū's guru was svāmī mahatābakak
svāmī mahatābakak's guru was svāmī ram
this whole lineage is traced back to durvāsā ṛiṣi.
It is said durvāsā ṛiṣi received knowledge of bhairava tantra from śrikaṇṭhanathā (śiva) Himself.
Accordingly , durvāsā ṛiṣi was instructed by śrikaṇṭhanathā to expand the thought of bhairava tantra in all the universe with no restriction to varna or jāti, male or female.The first to receive his dīkṣā was Tryambakanātha, his son. What is of special note this sisya (śiṣya) was a mind-born son. He also created two more mind born sons and a mind born daughter for the upliftment of the family of man. Her name was ardhatryambakā.

Why did durvāsā ṛiṣi pursue this venue? He was a brahhmacārī and therefore ūrdhvaretah or one preserving ones sexual energy and no displacement of sukra.
From father to mind born son and daughter, some of the children also created mind born śiṣya-s. It's said that 15 siddhas were created in this manner. It was this 15th siddha that was unsuccessful in creating mind born śiṣyas.

For this he searched for a female with all sattvic qualities to produce his children and śiṣyas. Up to this point it was always father-to-son initiation.
So, starting with somānandanātha muni the dīkṣā began from Master to disciple. It is from this lineage that the most notable Abhinavagupta came to be initiated into this great knowledge of kaśmir śaivism.

We can review each school if requested, yet perhaps, some of our esteemed HDF members will do some research and come back to compare and contrast the various schools.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
22 August 2010, 01:51 PM
Vannakkam Yajvan and others:

All I've read is this: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_r2_six-schools.html

and it comes from Himalayan Academy. I'm sure there are other subtle nuances within various explanations. Dividing Saivism into 6 schools is just a start, as there are other further subdivisions and Guru interpretations, etc. There is also the 'leaning toward' concept I've mentioned before, not that it matters. Philosophical stance is one thing, yet how it is practiced is another. For example, I've heard that Virasaivas bury their dead, yet I've never learned anything more than that.

The energy that I personally feel at a Siva temple is like a subtle eraser of the dross of the mind, without me even knowing it. "Oops.. what was that? It's gone now, whatever it was." Such is the mystic magic of temples for me.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
22 August 2010, 06:38 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté EM (et.al)

Yes, I have read this. I am fortunate to possess Dancing with śiva, the publication of the Himalayan Academy and your guru-ji.


Regarding pāśupata-s
It is interesting that the initial definition mentioned in the link you have offered is 'Lord of souls' e.g. 'The Pashupatas (from Pashupati, a name of Siva meaning "Lord of souls") ' ; this too is one and the same in Dancing with śiva, pg. 499.

Why do I mention this?

paśu is any tethered beast, a herd.
pāśa - anything that binds or fetters the soul i.e. like a snare that catches an animal; For us we would call it the world.
Hence paśupati is the 'lord of animals' or 'lord of a servant named paśu' . Yet too we can find this paśupati as Lord of the soul.We are initially considered tethered animals overall. Thought that was worth mentioning.


But an observation we can make that is germane to the overall conversation of this string is the paśupata-s were dvaita (dual) initially , then dvaitādvaita (non-dual +dual) later on, as lakulīśa-ji made his influence.

Therefore with the pāśupata-s (and the māheśvaras as I understand it ) the individual soul, for them , is distinct from the divine Soul;
hence not advaita ( non-dual) or one-and-the-same in liberation.

One may say perhaps this group is a very small part of Śaivism and not worthy of considering in the overall scheme of things. This would be a blunder in understanding. As I read some of the history of the number of temples, , pāśupata-s , the records, suggests 10's of thousands participants.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
27 August 2010, 04:57 PM
Vannakkam Yajvan: Although I am not a history buff, I am always amazed at how things change. One group has millions of followers one century, and then some wise man comes along, and the force of it dwindles, and another one comes up in its place, just because of a slight shift in the thinking, as you mentioned. Angkor Wat in Cambodia is massive, and there must have been a thriving agricultural Hindu community there at one time. Even here in Edmonton, I see it. When our priest first came, there were literally weeks when only a few people would come to temple. Now no one can remember the day when no one came, not morning, or evening. So it is a microcosm of things bigger.

There are monasteries that used to have a thousand monks, and now there is one guy with one disciple.

Here one county which contained primarily Ukrainian immigrants once had some 50 or more of those onion topped churches. In three generations only 3 or 4 are still in use.

Aum Namasivaya

PARAM
30 August 2010, 08:38 AM


Is there something like Ravan Shivism, or Lankan Shivism?
Ravan was the author of Krisna Samhita, I haven't read it but Ravan was a Great Sanskrit Scholar, knower of Vedic Knowledge, and Great Shiv devotee, a Mahapandit.

Onkara
31 August 2010, 09:11 AM
How does one come to love Shiva, are there paticluar scriptures which help convey His nature or His relationship with His devotees or is it based soley on the devotees attraction to His image (or ista-devata)?

Eastern Mind
31 August 2010, 11:00 AM
Vannakkm Snip:

There are many reasons for choosing a sect or an ishta, as some people would prefer. Sometimes the sect sort of chooses you. One is just plain family and local tradition. It just happens, like occupation used to. My dad was a farmer so so am I. So if you are in a geographical area where one sect is dominant, then most likely you will be that. Or if from childhood you watch your father do a daily abhishekham to a lingam as the integral part of home puja, you'd grow up thinking that is the norm.

There is also scripture. A translation of a text may call to you. If you're Tamil for example, you might be inspired from listening to the thevaram hymns at temples, of which most glorify Siva. Religious singing might do it.

There are also Gurus, who usually are leaning to some sect or another, unless they are of the Universalist type. So if you get connected to a particular Guru who is a bhaktar of Krishna, or of Siva, then it would seem appropriate to follow him along that path.

But yes, there is the image itself also. Perhaps an image of Nataraja just calls to you in some way, or beckons you for a closer look. Same thing with Krishna.

So I think there are many ways this happens. Personally, I think the soul already knows, and it just rediscovers it each lifetime.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
31 August 2010, 12:36 PM
Just as Most Beloved Shiva has no beginning...the love for Him started from the time when this child could first remember. Finding His Beloved Name is like finding your position on a map after years of being lost in wilderness. Being given a compass....when storm tossed within uncharted seas.

I can not speak for everyone. But I did not come to love Beloved Shiva, as I was born with this condition. What came was certain knowledge of His Beloved Name. The words rang through my heart like the sound of Om in my bathroom each day as I pray.

To find this most precious gift, despite this pathetic...absurd lifetime filled with abuse, violence, scarecrows and candy corn...makes the entire wretched captivity acceptable.

Arav
31 August 2010, 12:41 PM
How does one come to love Shiva, are there paticluar scriptures which help convey His nature or His relationship with His devotees or is it based soley on the devotees attraction to His image (or ista-devata)?

I love Shiva because of this proclamation: God Shiva is Immanent Love and Transcendant Reality.

Shiva is Love.

Onkara
31 August 2010, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the answers. I would have liked to have dedicated a thread to the Love of Shiva and explored it further, I feel you are all just sharing the tip of the iceberg here :)

Rachael
01 September 2010, 12:35 PM
How would one start worshiping or dedicating themselves to Shiva? Do you feel that one could dedicate and worship without the access of a temple and a community? The only temple that's available where I live is an ISKCON one.

Eastern Mind
01 September 2010, 02:42 PM
Vannakkam Rachael: If you take BART and get off in Concord, you're a couple of blocks away from the Siva-Murugan temple in Concord. There is also the Siva-Vishnu temple in Livermore, but I don't know if BART goes there. These are both South Indian style temples. I think thee is also a small Ganesha temple in San Jose, as well as another in Sacramento.

So althoguh it might take a bit of effort, they would be accessible. Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

Rachael
01 September 2010, 03:26 PM
Vannakkam Rachael: If you take BART and get off in Concord, you're a couple of blocks away from the Siva-Murugan temple in Concord. There is also the Siva-Vishnu temple in Livermore, but I don't know if BART goes there. These are both South Indian style temples. I think thee is also a small Ganesha temple in San Jose, as well as another in Sacramento.

So althoguh it might take a bit of effort, they would be accessible. Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya
Thank you for the information :). I will be sure to look into it.

Ashvati
01 September 2010, 04:52 PM
I would NOT go to an Iskcon temple to worship Shiva, it seems like they have some issues with Lord Shiva. They already seem to encourage anyone who's ishta isn't Krishna to worship Krishna (just ask Scottmalaysia-ji), but Shiva seems to be almost actively disliked by them, from what I gather.

Rachael
01 September 2010, 05:05 PM
I would NOT go to an Iskcon temple to worship Shiva, it seems like they have some issues with Lord Shiva. They already seem to encourage anyone who's ishta isn't Krishna to worship Krishna (just ask Scottmalaysia-ji), but Shiva seems to be almost actively disliked by them, from what I gather.
I am aware of this, this is why I was asking how I could worship. Eastern Mind gave me some temples I could go to, even if they are a bit out of the way.

At this point in my journey since I am very new to everything I think I'd like to learn more and start worshiping on my own before I start looking for an in person community.

I'm wondering if anyone has some tips on things I can start doing in my home to start connecting to Shiva?

Rachael
01 September 2010, 05:24 PM
I've also read that Ganesha is always worshiped first. Do I focus my attention on Ganesha for a certain period of time before I start praying to Shiva or other deities? .. Or does it simply mean that I always worship Ganesha right before Shiva or any other deity worship?

Eastern Mind
01 September 2010, 07:13 PM
Vannakkam: Go to an Indian store or an import store and find yourself a nice picture of Ganesha or Siva, or perhaps a small murthi. Buy some incense and a simple aarti lamp if they have one. Then you can just wave this in front of the picture, and chant Om Siva or mentally chant it. Then just sit and stare. Om is a very safe and grounding mantram to do as well. This stuff is also available on line.

And keep asking questions on here. If you need more instructions, let us know. For example, you can roll cotton batting like the stuff you find in an aspirin bottle into a 'snake' (like those plasticine days) which will make a nice oil wick. Just use regular cooking oil, and you get a nice little flame. More traditional than candles.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
01 September 2010, 07:29 PM
Making a nice starter mala might be a good idea, make it 108 beads to keep count.

I went to Ebay and purchased some nice Shiva Batik paintings for my home. Found a very old, beautiful temple hanging of Krishna there too (Happy birthday Big K<3)

Anyway Ebay has lots of starter things there for very cheap.

You can put in Shiva and get lost a day looking.

My son did something wonderful for me, he took the Shiva in my icon on here and went to Walgreens and had it blown up into a high resolution photograph then bought a beautiful frame for it. It is one of my favorite things now...and it was only a few dollars to make.

My most prized things to worship Shiva with are the incense I buy from Satya Sai Baba...I get Goloka from them and also I buy from Amazon.com my favorite type which is Flora Nag and Shantimalai..that one is my absolute favorite...and I use it on special days.

Start with a song in your heart<3

Hari Om Namah Shivaya<3

Ashvati
01 September 2010, 07:40 PM
If you want, I could send you a description of what I do for my daily worship to give you an idea. Its pretty simple and basically, and although its not quite "by the book", it works for me and aparently is good to do, according to my bestest friend on here NayaSurya.

Rachael
01 September 2010, 07:46 PM
Thank you everyone for all the ideas. Ashvati, I will PM you my email address.

Eastern Mind
01 September 2010, 08:01 PM
I've also read that Ganesha is always worshiped first. Do I focus my attention on Ganesha for a certain period of time before I start praying to Shiva or other deities? .. Or does it simply mean that I always worship Ganesha right before Shiva or any other deity worship?

Vannakkam It's kind of both. There are temples entirely dedicated to Ganesha, like the one I go to. But no matter what, pujas, (at least the Smarta or Saiva variety) start with an invocation to Ganesha. Be it a simple sloka or whatever. Psychically and mystically, it is said He is the easiest to contact.

Aum Namasivaya