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Believer
24 August 2010, 09:14 PM
Warning: The Tat Khalsa Sikhs may want to skip reading this post.

It was a personal quest to learn about the Hindu-Sikh acrimony which led me to gather the following information. It is by no means meant to hurt or disrespect anyone, and the Tat Khalsa Sikhs should heed the above warning. Also, the interested readers may access more information at the two links provided below, and from additional material available on the internet, to draw their own conclusions.

The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum. When Punjab fell under the British rule, hordes of missionaries moved in to harvest the lost souls in the name of Jesus. A Sikh religious administrative body, Sanatan Sikh Sabha was established in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar to counter the rising influence of, and conversion to Christianity.

The British Raj ruled by creating divisions through tactics which included altering and editing scriptures to divide and conquer and keep the populace subjugated, ignorant and subservient. All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed. It is alleged that Max Arthur McAuliffe, the British Deputy Commissioner of Punjab, saw an opportunity with the establishment of Sanatan Sikh Sabha and engineered the formation of a second Sabha, Tat Khalsa (the 'True Khalsa') Singh Sabha in Lahore in 1879, as a political rival to the Sanatan Sikh Sabha. Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity; the Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity, separate from the non-Sikh Punjabis. So, the motive for the formation of this Tat Sabha were primarily to push Sikhs over to a pro-Muslim stance, put a wedge between the Sikhs and non-Sikh Punjabis thereby weakening the Hindus, and also to propagate the belief among the Sikh soldiers serving the Raj that their Guru’s prophecies coincided with the interests of the British Raj. It was a deliberate act in their “divide and rule” tactics and to get the Tat Khalsa Sikhs to be loyal to the British Raj.

Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed. To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued. In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

Over the last few decades, the newer generations of Sikhs have been indoctrinated into the Tat Khalsa mold. They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity. They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature. This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today, subscribe to the Tat Khalsa Sabha. Other sects are frowned upon and dealt with harshly, sometimes with the elimination of their leaders. Although, the seat of spiritual authority emanates from the Golden Temple; in North America, there is always a tussle between the conformist and reformist minded Tat Khalsas, which is at times settled violently. Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.

A murti or a book is an inanimate object. It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine. The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable. For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.

Sanatan Sikhi link:
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/introduction.html

Tat Khasla Link:
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Tat_Khalsa

Believer
24 August 2010, 11:13 PM
Live and learn is my motto. Stagnation leads to spiritual blindness.

Ashvati
24 August 2010, 11:17 PM
All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.

shubhamgarg1993
25 August 2010, 03:14 AM
yeah i have also experienced this ..
means see there are some sikhs who sing bhajans and devotional songs of krishna,durga,rama etc.

and there are sikhs who consider gurbani is only thing...
while it also contains the rama,krishna etc.

also i feel confused how sikhs deny to idol worship while maharaja Ranjit Singh
made a golden covering on the jwalamukhi temple in north , and He HIMSELF ,
shree guru Gobing Singh Ji wrote "Chandi di vaar" (poem praising goddess Durga.)

although being a hindu though i have always been to gurudwara as its near to home and any time we get a chance to be in amritsar we visit golden temple for sure..
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i dont know how bitterness came in sikhs??

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 07:41 AM
"They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity."
LOL. You're not exaggerating either. It's precisely because these people are terrified of what may come bubbling up from the surface of long buried historical realities that the ideologues who have denied and suppressed these facts create this ridiculous conspiracy theory about the evil Hindus.

I've been contacted by all these people, GURSIKH organization, and that twit who makes the "RSS put all the Hindu imagery into Sikhism" videos. Trust me, Alex Jones has nothing on Tat Khalsas. I was just in communication with a guy trying to convince me everything was all fault of the evil Bahmins. So I asked, "what bahmins? And he said, "Indian government." So I informed him that current ruling family of India is Christian. To which he replied, "No, they're definitely bahmins." "How so?" I asked. "Because of bahminvaadi." Oh.

Then I asked, "Well what about Manmohan Singh?" Honest question. To which he replied, "He's a bahmin too." :dunno:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zgyy-WZLeIk/SfEbUst91FI/AAAAAAAAAG4/D0XDpIAVHe8/s320/nihang+dastaar+V+%26+A.jpg
See this purataan Nihang Dumalla with all those chakrs? Where did the chakr come from anyway? I'll give you a clue...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/sudarshan-chakra-1.jpg

Harjas Kaur
26 August 2010, 08:55 AM
"I had never heard the phrase Sanatan Sikh before I visited this forum."
For someone who is a professed Sikh and is that ignorant of their basic history, I find very sad. How can you possibly promote or represent something when you don't even have the basic knowledge? Perhaps you feel that knowledge is dangerous and should be kept..."secret?"


I cannot understand the purpose of some people like Harjas Kaur who want to misrepresent the sikhism. Anyhow, everybody has to meet their maker, and answer for their deeds.

Why would anyone suffer from the God for providing an education? Dear, it was not I who misrepresented the Sikhism. The history is there for all who care to look. Just investigate for yourself, if you care at all about Sikh heritage as a reality and not as a fabrication.


Perhaps you didn't know this either:


The Vishwa Hindu Parishad was formed in 1964 by Swami Chinmayananda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinmayananda) as president and former Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh) (RSS) member S.S. Apte as general secretary, with Master Tara Singh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Tara_Singh) as one of the co-founders[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishva_Hindu_Parishad#cite_note-1).The following aims and objectives were set before the Parishad...
To consolidate and strengthen the Hindu Society.
To protect, promote and propagate Hindu values of life, the ethical and the spiritual in the context of modern times.
To keep in touch with all the Hindus living abroad, and to organize and help them in all possible ways in protecting their Hindu identity also popularly known as Hindutva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishva_Hindu_ParishadAnd who is Master Tara Singh that this would even be relevant? Well, that's a long story. You should read it sometime.

http://www.indiapicks.com/stamps/Gallery/1984-86/1148_Master_Tara_Singh.jpg

Master Tara Singh said:

“Protection of Dharma is our Dharma. Khalsa Panth was born for that purpose. Never have I left Hinduism. Guru Govind Singh has produced a lot of Gurumukhi literature based on Vedas, Puranas and the like. Are we to leave all that? In fact Hindus and Sikhs are not two separate communities. Name is Sikh and beard… Mona (non beard) Sikh and Sevak… That is all… Sikhs live if Hinduism exists. If Sikhs live Hinduism lives. They are not two separate communities. They are one indeed. Lack of mutual confidence has been a small problem. This situation must be put to an end. I want to see that. A Hindu revival movement is very necessary and it will certainly come up.” http://www.jstor.org/pss/3517547

It's really sad so many political divisions from British Raj and also from within the Nation of India divide true brotherhood and unity. Regardless of anyone's opinions, knowledge is never a bad thing. You may agree or disagree. But please, never choose to remain ignorant.


At last the nation is paying tribute to the memory of one of its great freedom fighters, Master Tara Singh, by adorning his portrait in Parliament's Central Hall at the hands of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee on Aug. 21. Master Tara Singh was the leader of the Akali Dal and the sole spokesman for the Sikhs. He had such authority that one word from him could seal the fate of millions of Hindus and Sikhs.

No history book contains any [appropriate] reference to the role of Master Tara Singh. He got half of the Punjab (now Punjab, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh) integrated into India. He was born in a Hindu family in Haryal village, near Rawalpindi, on Jun. 24, 1885. Nanak Chand, as he was then known, got converted to Sikhism at the age of 14 and was baptized by amrit [sweet initiation water] and given the name Tara Singh. It is said that next to Maharaja Ranjit Singh (1780-1839) no Sikh had such vast influence in the community as Master Tara Singh.

Every Sikh leader of modern times was in fact his creation. At one time Partap Singh Kairon was his secretary. India's first defence minister, Sardar Baldev Singh, was his nominee. Sardar Swaran Singh was made a minister and leader of the Akali Assembly Party in Lahore by him. Sardar Hukam Singh, who rose to be the speaker of the Lok Sabha, owed his entry into parliament to Masterji. Sardar Buta Singh was picked up by him and made member of parliament in 1962.

The demand for partition of the Punjab was first mooted by Master Tara Singh when Strafford Cripps announced his Draft Declaration in 1942. In a memorandum to the Cripps Mission he demanded: 'The Sikhs cannot attain their rightful position or can effectively protect their interest unless the Punjab is redistributed into two provinces with River Ravi as boundary between them. If you can separate provinces from India for the domination of Muslims, how can you refuse to separate a big area for protection of Sikhs from the rule of a single community?'

To counteract the Muslim League demand for a sovereign Muslim State, the Akali Dal put forward the demand for a Sikh state. The main aim of the demand was to insist upon the partition of Punjab. Later, they put forward the Azad Punjab scheme. The Punjab had a coalition government headed by Khizr Hayat Khan with the Congress and Akali Dal as partners. In Mar. 1947, the Muslim League succeeded in getting the resignation of Khizr Hayat Khan in order to install its own government. It was due to Master Tara Singh's tough stand that a Muslim League ministry could not be installed in the Punjab.

Master Tara Singh took a great risk but there are political thinkers who concede that his action changed the course of free India's history. The Muslims took to communal riots in Lahore and western parts of the Punjab. Thousands of Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their homes razed. In vengeance they destroyed Master Tara Singh's ancestral home and killed 59 of his relatives. The Hindu leadership, including Bhim Sen Sachar, Gopi Chand Bhargava, Mahasha Krishan, and Mahasha Khushal Chand, formed an anti-Pakistan front, with Master Tara Singh as its sole dictator.

The British tried to influence Sikh leaders to side with the Muslim League. Jinnah went all out to win over the Sikhs and offered them an autonomous state within Pakistan. Master Tara Singh spurned all offers and announced his decision to stay with India. The demand for the partition of Bengal, which was also a Muslim majority province, was mooted by the Hindu leaders at the behest of Master Tara Singh. http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_082103a.html

Just because you never heard about something,doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact is, in the very recent past was a vastly different Sikh identity and it is no misrepresentation to share the historical truth.

Harjas Kaur
27 August 2010, 08:41 AM
All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.

Well this is the key issue. And it has been under the radar for decades.


I cannot understand the purpose of some people like Harjas Kaur who want to misrepresent the sikhism.

Anyone simply analyzing the situation, where the degree of suppression in a community is such that lifelong Sikhs have never even heard of the alternative history tells you something. Where anyone who simply presents the suppressed view is vilified as "misrepresenting" the faith and answerable to God as if commiting a sin.


Misrepresent: "to represent falsely; give an untrue or misleading idea of; to be an improper or bad representative of."

As I do not claim to represent the mainstream, but say directly I am Sanatan...and a Sikh have never even heard of sanatan Sikhism but decides that ANY OTHER PRESENTATION OR UNDERSTANDING of Sikhism apart from the mainstream is false and untrue, tells you something.

So what is the truth? Truth represents itself. It is an unqualified defense to an accusation of falsehood.


Adi Granth Our Living Guru is not for Research
Dr. Pashaura Singh and Dr. W.H. McLeod please note!
An Essay by Dr. S.S. Sodhi

So we can see from the above, in academia, certain viewpoints are simply not allowed to be questioned, analyzed or even discussed. Why is this, if truth is it's own powerful defense?

http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/12-04/sikh04_400.jpg

Why would a PhD thesis which challenged the mainstream Singh Sabha view result in mass protests of Sikhs and censure from Akal Takht Sahib directly, calls for his firing, invalidation of his doctorate, and issuing tankhah with threat of excommunication?


"To prove that Kachi Bani is not different from the Sachi/Pakki Bani of Adi Sri Gurū Granth Sahib, revisions in Mul Mantar and the creation of doubts on the revelatory character of Bani as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib have become the fastest growing epidemic in the western universities. It was due to such ridiculous and wrong interpretations of Bani by using unauthentic sources; Dr. Pashaura Singh’s Ph.D. thesis caused a strong reaction from Sikh researchers and intellectuals all over the world because of the poor quality of research and misrepresentation of the Sikh history & Sikh Scripture merely on conjectural basis and unauthentic documents...

In a historic judgement delivered by Professor Manjit Singh, Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht, the highest spiritual and temporal authority/ seat of Sikhs, Pashaura Singh was declared guilty of five charges of blasphemy. Pashaura Singh had made a number of baseless observations in his Ph.D. thesis, "The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth", submitted to the University of Toronto in 1991, to please his supervisor who is well known as an adversary of Sikhism and with an eye on a university job...

The judgment says that Pashaura Singh had attacked the authenticity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, which had deeply hurt the sentiments of the Panth: He had also levelled baseless charges against the Fourth and the Fifth Masters, saying that they had made alterations in the Mul Mantra as well as linguistic and theological changes in the bani of Guru Nanak...

As a Sikh scholar, you were expected to produce literature to promote the welfare of all, with commitment to Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Panth. But what happened was exactly the opposite of this. Taking cognizance of the overall situation in the Panth, Sri Akal Takht is pleased to issue the following orders for your compliance:-

1) You shall not publish this controversial thesis in the present form, nor shall you authorize anyone else to publish it.

2) The charges and the objections relating to doctrines or presentation, raised by Sikh scholars against this thesis, have been pointed out, and accepted by you. Some of these have been given to you in writing. These shall be removed by you in letter and spirit from the thesis. And in case the thesis is to be published in the future, it will be done according to Gurmat with full regard for the sentiments of the Sikh community.

3 ) In deference to the sentiments of the Guru Panth you shall also not publish any other such objectionable material as produced by you earlier. In the future you shall ever keep in mind the sentiments for the ascendancy of the Panth and salvation of all, and conduct only such research on Gurbani and Sikh history, as would lead to blessings of the Living Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Panth.http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xtXtnIXBQKQJ:www.globalsikhstudies.net/articles/isc2k/Pashaura%2520Singh%2520Turns%2520His%2520Back%2520To%2520Akal%2520Takhat.doc+dr+pashaura+singh&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=opera

This is the courage of conviction that truth can withstand scrutiny? Or it is bullying an opinion into conformity with the mainstream in order to maintain a historical suppression? Well, is it any wonder that an entire generation has never even heard of the sanatan alternative? because the issues at stake regarding the doctoral work of WH Mcleod and Dr. Pashaura Singh, for example, who challenged the mainstream view have to do as much with Singh Sabha alterations and WHICH bir such as Kartarpur bir may or may NOT be authentic, but is bundled up neatly in a little package by Singh Sabha scholars to be blindly believed in and never dared questioned.

And since this is an intellectual forum open to discussions of philosophy, I will point out those "suppressed" questions regarding alterations and involving the Singh Sabha and the British Raj creation of a new religion and blatant hostility and renunciation of Hinduism.

Harjas Kaur
27 August 2010, 10:57 AM
All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.


The Apocryphal Mirabai Hymn:

"of the collections of hymns or pothis prior to Guru Granth Sahib are still extant. They are in the possession of the descendants of Guru Amar Das, Nanak III. Besides the compositions of the Gurus, these pothis contain compositions of some of the saints as well among them Kabir, Namdev. Ravidas and Bhikhan...

Views differ on whether Guru Arjan included the sayings of the Bhagats exactly as received or whether he used his discretion in choosing his contributors and in bringing their contributions to conform, in general at least, to the tenets of Sikhism. One thing is certain. Bhagats in the Guru Granth Sahib are represented by their hymns, lauding Nirguna Brahm, i.e. God without attributes. Worshippers of Sarguna Brahm, of His Rama and Krsna incarnations, were excluded. Vaisnava bhaktas such as Chaitanya and Mira Bai are examples." http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/sri-guru-granth-sahib-and-guru-gobind-singhs-bani/bhagat-bhakta-bani.html
Was it? We already know from the Gurbani directly God is both nirgun AND sargun. Sarguna is never denied. In fact the sargun avtaray as praised as the Absolute Lord. So what's this claim Guru Sahibaan deliberately did NOT include bani of bhagats who praised the God as Sarguna? such as Mirabai?

For one thing it creates an illogical division. Guru Sahibaan accepted bani of some Vaishnavis but not others, not those which praised the God as sarguna, even as whole of Gurbani is praise of the God as Rama, Krishna, Govinda, Murare, Mukunda?

Strange...but it gets even stranger. Truth is that which can be supported by facts. Suppression is that which hysterically denies them. Misrepresentation is that which is false. So let's see what is going on with Mirabai... So we have to look at the controversy involving the Kartarpur Pothi.


"The hymn of Mirabai in the Kartarpur Pothi appears at the end of the rag Maru section. Sahib Singh argued at length that this hymn was not present in the manuscripts complied before 1675 but was inserted in some manuscripts after the death of Guru Tegh Bahadur. Pashaura Singh notes the hymns presence in the Kartarpur Pothi but claims that "the decision to exclude Mirabai's hymn must have been made by Guru Arjan himself." In his view the hymn was crossed out immediately after it was recorded.

To evaluate the conflicting claims, we must look closely at the Kartarpur Pothi text. The rag Maru section contains sixteen hymns. It opens with a set of nine hymns by Kabir which is followed by those of Namdev, Kabir, Jaidev, Kabir, Ravidas, Ravidas, and Mirabai...

It seems that the hymn of Mirabai was recorded in the rag Maru section along with the preceding hymn of Ravidas, which begins, "Sukh sagar suritaru chintamani kamdhain basi ja ke re (God is the Ocean of bliss, the tree under which all wishes are fulfilled, the wish-fulfilling stone, and it is under His control that the wish-fulfilling cow stands," folio 810. This hymn appears in the Goindval Pothis in the rag Sorathi (folio 167) section and was copied in the Kartarpur Pothiin the rag Sorathi section (folio 498)." ~The making of Sikh scripture By Gurinder Singh Mann p. 115 (http://books.google.com/books?id=PC4d-5xrysIC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=Goindval+pothis+mirabai+bani&source=bl&ots=5Jb_TRsVan&sig=ovZAsmt2A8i7toPMLR_oJFXeT_I&hl=en&ei=5rZ3TKSaCoTAsAPlqMCtBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Goindval%20pothis%20mirabai%20bani&f=false)

So we have Mirabai bani in the Goindval Pothis but not in the final Kartapur Pothi. Well, actually it is there, and in the same sequence but it was deleted out. Now, interpretation has been made this was done by the Guru Sahib and implicitly because Mirabai was a Krishna bhakta...even though Krishna is referred to as the Satguru for Dwapara Yuga. Strange.

So, what's contentious about the Kartarpuri bir? After all, Dr. Pashaura Singh was publically given tankhiya and made to apologize, recant and alter his thesis. It was directly and publicly denied that any alterations were EVER made to Gurbani. It has been publicly claimed Mirabai's bani had no place in Sikhism because she praised the sargun Krishna. What authority exactly does Kartarpur Pothi have in this equation? Everything. Because it is officially claimed by the Sikh hierarchy to the the original Adi Granth.


"Pothi Sahib (known today as the Kartarpur Bir) was kept by the Sixth Master Guru Hargobind in his house. From here it was stolen by his grandson Dhir Mal who intended to use it to further his claims on the succession of the Guruship. Some thirty years later the followers of the Ninth Master, Guru Tegh Bahadur forcibly recovered it, but were instructed by the Guru to return it. They placed it in the shallow river bed of the Satluj River. From here Dhir Mal recovered it, miraculously it was undamaged.

Throughout the eighteenth century it most likely remained with Dhir Mal's family, the Sodhis of Kartarpur, thus the name Kartarpur Bir (Bir means volume). The Holy Book next emerged from obscurity in 1849. In that year following the annexation of Punjab, the volume together with its golden stand were discovered by the British in the custody of the Lahore royal court. An application was received from Sodhi Sadhu Singh of Kartarpur and in 1850 the volume was returned to his family. The Kartarpur Bir is preserved to this day and installed monthly for worshippers.

An unauthorized edition of the Guru Granth Sahib know as the Banno Bir also exists. Guru Arjan Dev gave this copy of the Granth Sahib to Bhai Banno one of his disciples to take to Lahore for binding. Bhai Banno kept this volume and wrote in some verses of Sudras and Mirabai which it is believed had been rejected by the Guru as well as a few hymns allegedly to be by Guru Nanak at the end of his Granth. Guru Arjan Dev did not approve the Banno Bir. This copy is still in the possession of the descendants of Bhai Banno." History of Sri Guru Granth Sahib (http://www.sikhs.org/granth1.htm)
A few things immediately strike one as curious. 1. A second Adi Granth copy contains hymns of Mirabai. But these are claimed to be added by someone other than Guru Sahib and against the Guru's wishes. 2.The accepted Adi Granth copy also has hymns of Mirabai, but it is crossed out . Local Goindval Pothis written in the same time frame have hymn of Mirabai...but this is not explained.

Do you suppose the mystery deepens when the Kartarpur Bir, "The Holy Book next emerged from obscurity in 1849. In that year following the annexation of Punjab, the volume together with its golden stand were discovered by the British in the custody of the Lahore royal court." Isn't that coincidentally the time of the Singh Sabha and in the hands of the British?

And there is more.


"The Sikh religion community has the unique distinction of having in its possession a manuscript of its original Scripture, namely the Adi Granth kept at Kartarpur in Jalander District...

Many erasures, some filled in, but several lines completely blotted out in greenish ink. Some erasures were left white, mostly by one hand, but size carefulness varies greatly. Much correction in the margins the opening Mantra “ 1Ek Om Sat Nam” occurs twice. The one in this very beginning is said to be Guru Arjan’s writing but there is no signature while the one somewhere in the middle is said to be Guru’s Hargobind;s. of the former, the index says it is the Guru’s “Nishan.” Many pages are blank, of the same paper all numbered. No agreement as to why left blanks according to the gyani. Among the blank pages at the very beginning is a page of script, which has never been deciphered even by Kahn Singh of Nabha, according to our Giani...

The problem of book is acute; this considered to be the Adi Granth the “original” or only copy in existence of the “original”…….

But it bears neither dates nor any scribes name nor is its history clear. Its authenticity cannot be proved. it is said the guru Tegh Bahadur hid it once for fourteen days in the River Beas, to protect it ……. But there are no signed of water damage...

Many scholars however, claimed originality for the Bhai Banno edition the Kari (Bitter) Bir, because it contains three passages missing from the Kartarpure manuscripts. Two of these the hymns Mira Bai and that of Sur Das are important only as textual problems; but in the section in the Ram kali Rag by the fifth Guru has ritual and theological implications as well. In it Guru Arjan describe the puberty rites conducted for Hargovind, when his head was shaved according to the old Hindu rites of chaula, or tonsure. Only the preliminary verse is given in the Kartarpur manuscript, followed by blank pages.

The solution of each question seems impossible because of thee inaccessibility of these manuscripts, especially the Kartarpur one. A basic problem is that of the owner ship and custody of the Kartarpur Granth itself. Why did the ninth Guru sanction private ownership Guru himself., and in the hands of one who tried to assassinate him?

The effect has been set back to scientific investigation in to the actual original text of the Kartarpur Granth. For example, a few years ago an attempt was made to photograph every page of this Granth. A non-Sikh scholar secured special apparatus. This attempt to preserve the text in case anything happened to the original would seem reasonable and helpful, but it caused tremendous stir among Nihangs and other fanatical groups. This reaction was to the effect that “you will photograph the naked body of our Guru over our dead bodies!” so the matter was dropped.

The obvious place to keep the Kartarpur Granth would be in the treasury of the Golden Temple at Amritsar, or in the department of Historical Manuscripts at Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar. It would then be open to qualified investigation. Special photography might even decipher the words and texts blotted out. Textual Criticism of the Kartarpur Granth By Dr C H Loehlin (http://members.multimania.co.uk/mrmal13/saints/Textual%20Criticism%20of%20the%20Kartarpur%20Granth.htm)

squid
28 August 2010, 01:58 PM
"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zgyy-WZLeIk/SfEbUst91FI/AAAAAAAAAG4/D0XDpIAVHe8/s320/nihang+dastaar+V+%26+A.jpg
See this purataan Nihang Dumalla with all those chakrs? Where did the chakr come from anyway? I'll give you a clue...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/sudarshan-chakra-1.jpg


i bow to your sense of logic ,and how you relates the stuff :doh:

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434

Harjas Kaur
28 August 2010, 02:42 PM
i bow to your sense of logic ,and how you relates the stuff

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434

It isn't about Ganesh dear. It's about the Sudarshana Chakr. It's just that murthi of Ganesh is showing how it is clearly worn on the head and spun on the finger. Reason Gurbani of Dasam Granth claims not to adore Ganesh in the beginning is because Ganapati is traditionally invoked first. But that practice varies within sects. Vaishnavs for example some do, some don't with rationale being some teach there is no need to worship the demi-gods since all the demi-gods reside in the One Absolute.


Now, the issue was the Sudarshana Chakra: MahaVishnu and the Vishnu avatars are NOT the same as demi-gods. So per certain sects will emphasis some worship over others, or even in case of Arya Samaj, not even do murthi pooj as a Hindu organization.


ਮੇਰੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਤੂ ਧਨੁ ਕੇਸੌ ਸਾਂਵਲੀਓ ਬੀਠੁਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
maero baap maadhho thoo dhhan kaesa saanvaleeou beethulaae ||1|| rehaao ||
O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
kar dhharae chakr baikunth thae aaeae gaj hasathee kae praan oudhhaareealae ||
You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant.

ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥
dhuhasaasan kee sabhaa dhropathee anbar laeth oubaareealae ||1||
In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed.
~SGGS Ji ang 988

http://www.hindujagruti.org/hinduism/knowledge/out/images/1188831098_sudarshan.jpg
Now clearly it's no mystery who the Gurbani is referring to here. This is a God with perceivable form, who is called Keshava (Krishna NAAM), who resides in Vaikunth (Vishnu) and holds a chakr (Vishnu) and who saved honor of Dropadi (Krishan avatar of Vishnu.


So here is where the Chakr comes from. Like the Khanda, it is an ancient weapon of the Hindu people and comes from the scriptures descriptions of the Gods who are all geared out in weapons to battle evil and triumph.

http://cakradhara.yolasite.com/resources/sudarshan_chakra.jpghttp://uploads.sikhsangat.com/monthly_09_2008/post-15030-1221353510_thumb.jpg

squid
28 August 2010, 03:10 PM
SQUID
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434. Reason Gurbani of Dasam Granth claims not to adore Ganesh in the beginning is because Ganapati is traditionally invoked first. But that practice varies within sects. Vaishnavs for example some do, some don't with rationale being some teach there is no need to worship the demi-gods since all the demi-gods reside in the One Absolute.


[/IMG]

Sikh s need not to know Hindu Sect adore Ganesh or Vishnu .

These devi devtas are created and destroyed by Waheguru like worms

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै उपाए ॥
He hath Created millions of Krishnas like worms.

ਉਸਾਰੇ ਗੜ੍ਹੇ ਫੇਰਿ ਮੇਟੇ ਬਨਾਏ ॥
उसारे गड़्हे फेरि मेटे बनाए ॥
He Created them, annihilated them, again destroyed them, still again Created them.

Harjas Kaur
28 August 2010, 03:45 PM
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu;

Much is made about a few tuuks in Shri Dasam Granth, however I'm aware there's a dispute between the Udasi Govind Sadan translation and the released SGPC translation. And this is no small matter as the SGPC relied on Udasi Baba Virsa Singh who was the Braj and Sanskrit expert who SGPC relied on to translate Sri Dasam Granth into Punjabi and on basis of his respected expertise as a scholar to authenticate Sri Dasam Granth.


looking for translation of dasam granth
"I really would recommend the Sri Dasam Granth Translation by Dr Jodh Singh and Dharam Singh."

"The translation of the whole Dasam Granth is online, in 5 Volumes, in Punjabi.
Click on the following link (the website is by Baba Virsa Singh)."
<admin-cut: anti gurmat site>

"This has been discussed a few times. Baba Virsa is a fake guru and gobind sadans translations are not per gurmat."

"I humbly request the SikhSangat admins to remove that link. And Sadh Sangat jee please be warned that Gobind Sadan is an anti-panthic organization and their interpretations of Guru's bani are very twisted and prejudiced."

"The surinder singh kolhi version does not have Chitropakhyan... alot is cut out."
http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/2429-looking-for-translation-of-dasam-granth/page__st__36
------------------------------

Imagine the logic that Gobind Sadan was cut from the link on Sikh Sangat forum as ANTI-GURMAT, even as the SGPC could not complete the Punjabi translation and release of Sri Dasam Granth without the sanatan Udasi Baba's help. Now that's what I call some lousy gratitude.


"On February 20th, 2000, at Gobind Sadan, His Holiness Baba Virsa Singh released the first complete Punjabi translation of the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, plus other scholarly works about the life and teachings of Guru Gobind Singh." http://www.dasamgranth.org/


"Special guest, Giani Partap Singh ji, Head Granthi, Siri Sachkhand Hazoor Sahib remarked: "After Guru Granth Sahib ji, Dasam Granth holds a very special place with the Panth. In reality, Guru Granth Sahib ji is the bani for the whole world, but Dasam Granth is the Granth of Khalsa Panth. It contains the bani basic to the Sikh principles."

Keynote speaker, Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu, Professor and head of the Department of Religious Studies, Punjabi University, Patiala, recounted the 300 year history of Dasam Granth: It was given so much respect that, "originally Dal Khalsa were responsible for caring for this Granth, and then the leaders of the Nihangs took the responsibility. At this point all Nihangs, both the Damdani Takhsals, the Udasi and Nirmala Semperdais, the SGPC and DGPC, Srimani Akali Dal, and the Gobind Sadan Institute have all accepted that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani. Only some irresponsible missionaries and their organizations and missionary colleges have been preaching against the purity and authenticity of this Granth."Gobind Sadan Institute
Academic Concerns of Sri Dasam Granth (http://www.sridasamgranth.com/#/gobind-sadan-seminar-07/4527738063)



"However, the controversy continues, as there is reluctance among some modern day preachers to fully accept the entire text of the Dasam Granth. Therefore, scholars appealed to Baba Virsa Singh, a highly revered spiritual teacher of Sikh background, to gather scholars to clarify the doubts about the Dasam Granth. A seminar was held on January 3rd and 4th, 1999, at the Gobind Sadan Institute in New Delhi, India.

On February 20th, 2000, at Gobind Sadan, Baba Virsa Singh confirmed the Dasam Granth in its entirety as the Guru's work and released the first complete Punjabi translation of the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, plus other scholarly works about the life and teachings of Guru Gobind Singh."Dasam Granth (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Dasam_Granth)


Some portions of the Dasam Granth have not been fully accepted by some Sikhs. However, most Sikh groups, including all of the older organisations, accept it in its entirety.

At one stage it was debated whether to divide the book. This question arose because the original writings of the Tenth Guru had not been joined into one granth, but were separate. They had been collected into a single Granth by Bhai Mani Singh. Bhai Mehtab Singh of Mirankot (who was charged by the Panth to capture or assassinate Massa Ranghar who had established himself in the holy Golden Temple at Amritsar and was desecrating its sanctity) suggested to the leaders of his community that if he came back victorious in his mission, the book should be preserved in one volume, otherwise it may divided into two. Mehtab Singh was successful in putting Massa Ranghar to an ignoble death and hence the volume was preserved as it now is. This, however, as the Sikh savant, Bhai Kahan Singh points out, is a most arbitrary way of settling a point of such literary and theological significance. Moreover, a single man's point of view should not have prevailed - especially of a military hero, or even a Jathedar in search of martyrdom, in preference to the viewpoint of the theologians and scholars who were still discussing the point.

From 1892 to 1897, eminent scholars assembled at the Akal Takht, Amritsar, to study the various printed Dasam Granths and prepare an authoritative version. They consulted as many as 32 editions before preparing the version that is currently in circulation.Dasam Granth (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Dasam_Granth)
The Singh Sabha are responsible for the version which is autheticated today. But it would be oversimplistic and naive to overlook there were originally during time of Singh Sabha reform, 32 different Granths, while today only 3 can be accounted for.

http://gallery.gobindsadan.org/d/208-2/chand2002_18.jpg
Udasi Baba Virsa Singh Of Gobind Sadan

http://gallery.gobindsadan.org/d/226-2/BSC4.jpg
Gobind Sadan

Harjas Kaur
28 August 2010, 04:20 PM
Sikh s need not to know Hindu Sect adore Ganesh or Vishnu .

These devi devtas are created and destroyed by Waheguru like worms
So it always amounts to "Sikhs do not need Hindus, and implicit rejection and denial of Sanatan Hindu heritage in the very concepts of Guruji's bani. For understanding let's look at what you've said.

1. are you implying that to YOU devi devtas are worms? Because THAT is an arrogant and incorrect misinterpretation. But acknowledge, first, conceptually, Dasam Granth bani does not speak directly of Waheguru. It does speak of Kal and Akaal. Now you can simplify and say those are all the same thing, but really, there are linguistic differences to explain conceptual distinctions. Kal is time, and time destroys everything sarguna. The devi devta are PART of the ABSOLUTE LORD, and CREATED BY HIM to fight evil and uphold Dharma. NEVER are Devi Devta called EVIL, though they are considered corrupted for purposes of being 1. in sansaar, 2. part of the sarguna materiality and therefore temporary, and 3. not in completeness, not pure, not completely free from falsehood, NIRANJANA.

Now, the devatay are powers, like the sun. Can you look down at the sun? See, these forces are quite beyond human. Yet, this precious human life affords us the opportunity to obtain mukti, and so those beings, even if they be demi-gods, yearn for the precious human body. But the moment you become arrogant, mocking or look down at devatay, you are not only far from mukti, but you are disresepcting the forces God Himself put into being as powers and opulences and Lights. There is a cycle of time. After the Kali Yug will come again the Sat Yug. It's unfathomable how many times this cycle has existed. Ramas and Krishnas come and go. If you look to and cling to and worship the SARGUN manifestation, you will suffer the despair of loss. That is NOT the boat of Mukti. But worship, believe and put faith in that aspect with the sarguna REPRESENTS to us in materiality...that which is ETERNAL.


ਨਮੋ ਆਦਿ ਅਭੰਗੇ ਨਮੋ ਆਦਿ ਅਭੰਗੇ ॥੫॥੯੫॥
नमो आदि अभंगे नमो आदि अभंगे ॥५॥९५॥
Salutation to Him, Who is Primal and Immortal; Salutation to Him who is Primal and Immortal.5.95.

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै उपाए ॥
He hath Created millions of Krishnas like worms.

ਉਸਾਰੇ ਗੜ੍ਹੇ ਫੇਰਿ ਮੇਟੇ ਬਨਾਏ ॥
उसारे गड़्हे फेरि मेटे बनाए ॥
He Created them, annihilated them, again destroyed them, still again Created them.

ਅਗਾਧੇ ਅਭੈ ਆਦਿ ਅਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ॥
अगाधे अभै आदि अद्वै अबिनासी ॥
He is Unfathomable, Fearless, Primal, Non-dual and Indestructible.
~Shri Dasam Guru Granth p. 54

So with intelligence we can see the comparison is being made directly of the Infinite and indestructible which at bottom of the page is called...

ਸੁ ਭੂਤੇ ਭਵਿਖੇ ਭਵਾਨੇ ਅਚਿਤ੍ਰੇ ॥੮॥੯੮॥
सु भूते भविखे भवाने अचित्रे ॥८॥९८॥
That Imageless Lord was in the past, is in the present and will be in the future. 8.98.

ਨ ਰਾਯੰ ਨ ਰੰਕੰ ਨ ਰੂਪੰ ਨ ਰੇਖੰ ॥
न रायं न रंकं न रूपं न रेखं ॥
He is neither the king, nor the poor, without form and without mark.


Imageless and without form. And this is compared with the sarguna of devatay and avtaray. The Guru Sahib is not saying anywhere the devi devta are 1. fake, 2. rejected, 3. worthless. He is explaining them in their context. Same context as Vaishnav sampraday within Sanatan Dharm.


antavat tu phalaḿ teṣāḿ
tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām
devān deva-yajo yānti
mad-bhaktā yānti mām api
Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.
Bhagavad-Gita As it is 7.23 (http://vedabase.net/bg/7/23/)

So it is clear the origin of this interpretation is from within Hindu Mat and cannot possibly be AGAINST Hindu Mat or any kind of condemnation of it.


ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै उपाए ॥
He hath Created millions of Krishnas like worms.

ਉਸਾਰੇ ਗੜ੍ਹੇ ਫੇਰਿ ਮੇਟੇ ਬਨਾਏ ॥
उसारे गड़्हे फेरि मेटे बनाए ॥
He Created them, annihilated them, again destroyed them, still again Created them.

Now, what can this mean? First you must understand the context of universes upon universes uncountable and beyond human comprehension. Now within this space are uncountable trillions of earths, and uncountable trillions of avatars on those earths who, as part of sarguna, fall into time, and die and that manifestation crumbles to dust.

But the Jyot which was from the God merges back into the God. Just like Guru Gobind Singh Ji is dead and his body has crumbled to dust. You don't say the BODY of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is your Guru, because that would be trying to worship temporal grains of sand.

So this is the context, because Guru Granth Sahib clearly states the God is BOTH NIRGUN AND SARGUN, so when the sarguna crumbles, the nirguna is the infinite, unborn and undying expression who is called by uncountable trillions of names in trillions of uncountable universes. Somewhere He is Krishan avatar, somewhere Rama, somewhere names we can't imagine...

BUT ALWAYS THE DIVINE LIGHT IS ONE. This is no philosophy of fake gods competing against the Real Abrahamic God, who punishes and destroys them for being fake. It's the very design of the creation.


ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
~SGGS Ji ang 174

Harjas Kaur
28 August 2010, 04:36 PM
Within some sects of Vaishnavism Krishna is worshipped as the Niranjan Supreme and Absolute timeless Lord. In other sects Rama is said to be this. In others Radha-Krishna. Some sects call it Sada Shiva. Sikhism calls it Waheguru. However, the philsophical concepts are exact. The sarguna manifests the Light of the Divine Absolute principle which is beyond human comprehension (agochar), embodying for a time. The embodiment is not the God. But the God takes on form. Even Vaishnav sampraday which worship Bhagavan Krishna as the Absolute don't worship His embodiment but rather worship the Totality of all His opulences.


na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ
prabhavaḿ na maharṣayaḥ
aham ādir hi devānāḿ
maharṣīṇāḿ ca sarvaśaḥ
Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and sages.
~Bhagavad Gita As It Is 10.2


Lord Śiva said: "My dear son, I, Lord Brahmā and the other devas, who move within this universe under the misconception of our greatness, cannot exhibit any power to compete with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for innumerable universes and their inhabitants come into existence and are annihilated by the simple direction of the Lord" (Bhagavata Purana 9.4.56)


Every universe is covered by seven layers — earth, water, fire, air, sky, the total energy and false ego — each ten times greater than the previous one. There are innumerable universes besides this one, and although they are unlimitedly large, they move about like atoms in You. Therefore You are called unlimited (Bhagavata Purana 6.16.37)


Because You are unlimited, neither the lords of heaven nor even You Yourself can ever reach the end of Your glories. The countless universes, each enveloped in its shell, are compelled by the wheel of time to wander within You, like particles of dust blowing about in the sky. The śrutis, following their method of eliminating everything separate from the Supreme, become successful by revealing You as their final conclusion (Bhagavata Purana 10.87.41)


And who will search through the wide infinities of space to count the universes side by side, each containing its Brahma, its Vishnu, its Shiva? Who can count the Indras in them all--those Indras side by side, who reign at once in all the innumerable worlds; those others who passed away before them; or even the Indras who succeed each other in any given line, ascending to godly kingship, one by one, and, one by one, passing away? (Brahma Vaivarta Purana)


Sound familiar? It's should. This is Vedic and Puranic philosphical thought. It cannot possibly be misconstrued to be a teaching AGAINST itself.

Harjas Kaur
28 August 2010, 04:49 PM
See, just a couple pages later and Shri Dasam Granth is describing the One infinte Lord as sarguna, by form and qualities, some of which are less than perfect. And that's because He is All, nothing is rejected. It's not an Abrahamic competition, or philosophically like a Zoroastrian eternal God pitted against a false and evil Satan who is perpetually "not God." Don't try to make devatay and avtaray into some kind of satan.




ਕਹੂੰ ਦੇਵ ਕੰਨਿਆ ਕਹੂੰ ਦਾਨਵੀ ਹੋ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਜੱਛ ਬਿਦਯਾ ਧਰੇ ਮਾਨਵੀ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं देव कंनिआ कहूं दानवी हो ॥ कहूं ज्छ बिदया धरे मानवी हो ॥
Somewhere Thou art a daughter of gods and somewhere a daughter of demons. Somewhere a daughter of Yakshas, Vidyadhars and men.

ਕਹੂੰ ਰਾਜਸੀ ਹੋ ਕਹੂੰ ਰਾਜ ਕੰਨਿਆ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਸਟ ਕੀ ਰਿਸਟ ਪੰਨਿਆ ॥੨੧॥੧੧੧॥
कहूं राजसी हो कहूं राज कंनिआ ॥ कहूं स्रिसटि की प्रिसट की रिसट पंनिआ ॥२१॥१११॥
Somewhere Thou art the queen and somewhere Thou art the princess. Somewhere Thou art the superb daughter of the Nagas of netherworld. 21.111.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਦ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਕਹੂੰ ਬਿਓਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਕੋਕ ਕੀ ਕਾਬਿ ਕਥੈ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥
कहूं बेद बि्दिआ कहूं बिओम बानी ॥ कहूं कोक की काबि कथै कहानी ॥
Somewhere Thou art the learning of Vedas and somewhere the voice of heaven. Somewhere Thu art the discourse and story of general poets.

ਕਹੂੰ ਅਦ੍ਰ ਸਾਰੰ ਕਹੂੰ ਭਦ੍ਰ ਰੂਪੰ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਮੱਦ੍ਰ ਬਾਨੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਛਿਦ੍ਰ ਸਰੂਪੰ ॥੨੨॥੧੧੨॥
कहूं अद्र सारं कहूं भद्र रूपं ॥ कहूं म्द्र बानी कहूं छिद्र सरूपं ॥२२॥११२॥
Somewhere Thou art iron and somewhere Thou art splendid gold. Somewhere Thou art sweet speech and somewhere Thou art critical and fault finding.
~SGGS p. 57

darshansingh
31 August 2010, 12:18 PM
Harjas Kaur, you are brilliant. (This is sarcasm, for the uninitiated)

Now its high time you put photos of
baba ashutosh, baba dera sacha sauda and nirankari baba and tell everybody that they are sikhs, and what they preach is sikhism.

The name "Kaur" lifted you from being an ordinary girl to a "Princess"
Don't insult the guru who made you the "Princess"

Believer
31 August 2010, 12:32 PM
The name "Kaur" lifted you from being an ordinary girl to a "Princess"

Every Sikh girl has been "lifted" to be a princess and others are ordinary (read - low life) girls.

It's starting to sound like "caste system" :), which is a no no in Sikhism?

darshansingh
31 August 2010, 01:21 PM
sorry, believer - didn't mean it that way. But I see your point.

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 12:09 PM
Darshansingh writes:

Harjas Kaur, you are brilliant. (This is sarcasm, for the uninitiated)

Now its high time you put photos of baba ashutosh, baba dera sacha sauda and nirankari baba and tell everybody that they are sikhs, and what they preach is sikhism.

The name "Kaur" lifted you from being an ordinary girl to a "Princess"
Don't insult the guru who made you the "Princess"

All right dear, why are you making sarcastic comment about my qualities? Is that the only thing you can say after reading the essay? Are you incapable of responding to the points the essay is making that you resort to comments about the person who wrote it?
Dear, this is juvenile. Please discuss the essay, challenge points, refute them, make a counter-argument, or ignore it. But please, leave the personal slanders out of it. Thanks.

The name of Kaur did not lift one out of anything, just as Believer Ji pointed out. Kaur is the traditional title given to ruling Rajputana for last thousand years. What Guru Gobind Singh Ji did was promote the value and dignity of the woman by calling all girls as "Kaur." So for one thing, Kaur comes from Hindu culture as does "Singh."

For another thing, in purataan times Sikh ladies were called as Ma or Devi. But the implication is exactly the same, the female is always honored, whether in Hindu or Sikh society as Ma, Devi or Prince/Princess. Nowhere is anybody being devalued. When you make such comments, without realizing, you show the bigotry which you have learned believing only "Sikh" community honors it's women and that Hindu community does not. And that is why you get Hindu's challenging you.



Now its high time you put photos of
baba ashutosh, baba dera sacha sauda and nirankari baba and tell everybody that they are sikhs, and what they preach is sikhism.

And who is anybody to say they are not? Why do you think only YOU and YOUR idea of Sikh hierarchy are the exclusive voice of world Sikhism while marginalizing and slandering the traditional communities such as Ram Raiyas, Minas, Udasis, Nirmalas, Sevapanthis, Kabirpanthis and the sects which also came up influenced in some measure by them, Namdharis, Nirankaris, Radhasoamis, Nanaksaris and modernly the dera-sant samaj which would be including Baba Asutosh and dera Sacha Sauda.

Is this all the katha you learn from the Singh Sabhas how everybody with a different interpretation from the mainstream is demonized and inauthentic? You realize there have been 3 assassination teams foiled by Punjab police against Baba Ram Rahim of dera Sacha Sauda? So mainstream endlessly promotes the rhetoric of how they are a danger to Sikh identity, how they are disrespecting Sikh religion and Sikh Gurus, and literally calling for assassinations. Dear, I can't justify this mentality. It is extremist. It is contrary to the actual Gurmat teachings of Guru Sahibaan. It is like taliban.



"Three prominent sect leaders in Punjab - Ashutosh Maharaj, Gurmit Ram Rahim Singh and Baba Piara Bhaniarewala - are on the hit list of Khalistan separatist forces that are trying to regroup with the help of overseas funds and the Pakistani intelligence agency, say Indian security officials.

These Sikh militant forces include the Khalistan Commando Force (KCF), the Babbar Khalsa International (BKI), the Khalistan Liberation Force (KLF), and the Bhindranwale Tigers Force of Khalistan.

Wednesday's arrest of two BKI associates in Jalandhar, Punjab, who were allegedly planning to kill Baba Piara Bhaniarewala only underlines the looming threat. "Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and its terrorist cells are plotting to trigger sectarian violence in Punjab,"

..."They are not only providing shelter to them in our neighbouring country but Khalistan outfits like the BKI is training with Pakistan based terror-outfit like Laskher-e-Taiba (LeT)." Sikh militancy raised its head in Punjab in the 1980s, but security forces comprehensively stamped it out by 1993, forcing many of its leaders to flee the country. Around 25,000 lives were lost in the battle against Sikh separatist terror.

But Khalistan militant groups are now conspiring to eliminate Ashutosh Maharaj of Divya Jyoti Jagaran Sansthan at Noormahal, Baba Gurmit Ram Rahim Singh of Dera Sacha Sauda and Baba Piara Bhaniarewala in Ropar and the heads of other religious sects in Punjab that have a large following. The BKI has reportedly set up a common office with the LeT in Nankana Sahib in Pakistan.

"The BKI and other such outfits, which consistently receive a substantial amount of overseas funding and support for militant groups, from Khalistani operatives in Germany, US, Britain and Canada, have plotted to murder Ashutosh Maharaj, Baba Ram Rahim and Baba Piara Bhaniarewala to give momentum to their campaigns of a separate state by triggering sectarian violence," the official added.

Following the intelligence inputs, the Indian high commission in Ottawa has raised concern with the government here over activities relating to Khalistan movement in Canada. The officials said these extremists were trying to win the support of Punjab youths by targeting the three sect leaders, who have been accused of making people "deviate from Sikh religion"."
Ashutosh Maharaj, Gurmit Ram Rahim Singh and Baba Piara Bhaniarewala - are on the hit list of Khalistan separatist (http://www.sikhpress.com/story/731)

Now, instead of using the names of dear babas as slurs, expecting to create demonized impression in other people's minds, why don't you tell what you have against them, point by point, logically like an adult. May I ask why you use the names of these dera babas to slander me? I am not from dera Sacha Sauda. I'm not a chela of Baba Asutosh. I'm not a Nirankari.

Yet, in this inflammed atmosphere of literal assassinations, what possible purpose it could serve by smearing me with groups which already have death sentence over their heads by the radical Sikh separatists? May I ask HOW it is you think to come across to Hindu community with such radicalized fanatical opposition demonizing any sanatan oriented groups who challenge the mainstream opinion?

You think marginalization so extreme it creates public slander and even hate speech coming from Sikh mainstream to justify murder? You think we don't read Sikh forums? Because the jathedar of the Akal Takhat is aout as mainstream as you can get.

Why does anybody care what they believe in? How are the beliefs of others a threat to anybody, beliefs which Guru Sahibaan so wonderfully articulated respect and tolerance of. Why does anybody feel they are the Divine right of God to oppress, ridicule, marginalize, invalidate, mock, and make death threats against "another interpretation of Sikh religion?"


"Monday April 13th, 2008

To voice their anger against activities of the pseudo cults including NIrankaris, DJJS, Sirsa Dera for undermining Sikh beliefs and the concept of Shabad Guru, members of the organization took out a ‘Khalsa March’ at Amritsar on April 13, 2009 to "expose the evil and nefarious designs" of the pseudo-saints...

The Sikh bodies through a resolution steadfastly maintained that any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its guruship will not be tolerated and will be dealt firmly with full force...

Significantly, the [B]Jathedar of the Akal Takht Gaini Gurbachan Singh flagged off the march. He also performed Ardas in memory of 13 Sikhs. Paying rich tributes to them, he called upon the Sikh masses to unite in their pursuit against these pseudo-saints.

Hundreds of Dal Khalsa activists were carrying placards and large size banners displaying pictures of militant leaders including Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Talwinder Singh Babbar, Wadhawa Singh Babbar and many others. The spirited gathering shouted slogans in their favour for spearheading the militant struggle against “gurudom” and to avenge the killings of 13 Sikhs against neo-Nirankaris in early 80’s. They also eulogized the role and contribution of former jathedar Akal Takht Bhai Ranjit Singh who along with Bhai Kabul Singh allegedly “killed” Nirankari chief responsible for Baisakhi massacre. Large size pictures of Sant Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Ranjit Singh beside those of 13 Sikhs were displayed on the mini-truck...

To ensure unflinching respect for Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh bodies including Damdami Taksal, Akand Kirtani Jatha, Khalsa Action Committee beside Dal Khalsa reiterated that it was a religious and pious duty of every Sikh to defeat the designs of all such sects and cults, which were propagating the concept of "living gurus" contrary to the fundamentals of the Sikh faith.

Striking a discordant chord, the organizers said while the Sikhs are presently engaged in a bitter struggle against the blasphemous acts of the neo-Nirankaris, DJJS led by Aushotosh, Sauda dera, they are emphatically opposed to all schismatic sects including Radhaswami and Namdhari sects as they were also underscoring the fundamentals of Sikh religion in a silent but systematic manner.

The gathering observed that the anti-Sikh network of likes of Gurmeet Ram Rahim, Aushotosh would have to be curtailed and smashed to uphold the fundamentals of Sikhism. The gathering sought a complete ban on Sirsa dera, DJJS, and complicity of those police and civil officers supporting these cults to be scrutinized...

Tracing its roots to Baisakhi incident, party spokesperson Kanwar Pal Singh said many radical organizations including Babbar Khalsa, Dal Khalsa came into being with avowed aim to curtail the blasphemous acts of the pseudo-sects.
Khalsa March sends strong warning to pseudo-saints, astray cults and sects: Disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its Guruship will not be tolerated (http://www.dalkhalsa.com/Archives/News/Apr_09/14_Mar_09.html)

Babbar Khalsa terrorist group? Khalistan Zindabad Force militants? To SMASH and CURTAIL and using ANY FORCE NECESSARY to combat the NEFERIOUS DESIGNS of SANTS who challenge the mainstream interpretation?



Yes, I've been saying for a few years now, Sikh Sabha separatist Sikhism has gone way past the point of no return. Not only is the mainstream marginalizing, trivializing and negating the TRADITIONAL SANATAN interpretations, it has positively declared WAR ON THEM!~

And this is nothing short of a war against the Hindu Dharma these groups all have in common.

satay
01 September 2010, 12:18 PM
namaskar,



Darshansingh writes:


All right dear, why are you making sarcastic comment about my qualities? Is that the only thing you can say after reading the essay? Are you incapable of responding to the points the essay is making that you resort to comments about the person who wrote it?



I wondered about the same thing and this is the only reason I left the personal attacks towards you intact in that post. When people can't come up with anything they attack the messenger. :rolleyes:

satay
01 September 2010, 12:27 PM
Namaste,
I wonder about this. Why won't the 'disrespect' of Guru Granth Sahib be tolerated? After all, isn't it just a book made up of some paper?

OR has it become an idol !??



The Sikh bodies through a resolution steadfastly maintained that any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its guruship will not be tolerated and will be dealt firmly with full force

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 12:38 PM
Why did they target for demonization and eventually kill this man, Rulda Singh, head of Rashtriya Sikh Sangh?

http://blog.singhsabhacanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/rss-vedanti-akj.jpg
Rulda Singh center wearing kesri siropa. Next to him on left is former Head jathedar of Akal Takhat Vendanti.



1 Dec 2009
"CHANDIGARH: Giving a new twist to the Rulda Singh murder case, Punjab police on Sunday named NRIs Gursharanjit Singh and Manjeet Singh as prime accused who came all the way from UK to execute the contract killing. According to cops, the British Sikh Council had planned the murder.

President of Punjab Rashtriya Sikh Sangat, Rulda Singh was shot at in July this year in Patiala. DIG SK Asthana had earlier revealed that the murder was masterminded by Paramjit Singh Pamma at the behest of Jagtar Singh Tara and other leaders of terror banned group Babbar Khalsa International."
UK body behind Rulda Singh murder (http://www.unp.co.in/f46/uk-body-behind-rulda-singh-murder-62497/)



"Four men were arrested in the West Midlands over the murder of a controversial and high-profile Sikh politician in India last year. West Midlands Police said the suspects, who are all British nationals, were detained in Wolverhampton, Coventry and Smethwick, near Birmingham, in connection with the murder of Rulda Singh, a leader of the Sikh wing of India's main opposition party, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

Singh was seriously wounded in a drive-by shooting by two gunmen on a motorbike outside his home in Patiala, Punjab, in July last year. He died in hospital two weeks later. Investigations into his killing launched by police in Britain and India focused on his role in Sikh religious affairs and bitter feuds within Sikh politics in both countries.

As a BJP general secretary responsible for the party's relations with Sikhs and other Indians living overseas, Singh was well-connected with senior BJP figures. But according to detectives in India, it was his role in the pro-BJP Sikh cultural organisation, the Rashtriya Sikh Sangat, which led to the plot to assassinate him.

The Sangat was set up to improve relations between Sikhs and Hindus after years of conflict following the rise of the Sikh separatist movement, the 1984 attack by Indian forces on Amritsar's Golden Temple, the centre of Sikhism, the subsequent murder of Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards and the massacre of Sikhs which followed.

Ranbir Khatra, Senior Superintendent of Police in Patiala, told The Daily Telegraph he believed Singh was murdered by members of the Babbar Khalsa International terrorist group, which wants an independent Sikh homeland called Khalistan, and the British Sikh Council.

"He had differences with the radical people who were opposed to his proposal to install the Guru Granth Sahib (Sikhism's Holy Book) in Hindu temples," he said.

His proposal had provoked angry protests against a meeting of his Rashtriya Sikh Sangat in Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh last year to discuss it.

Radical Sikh separatists regarded Mr Singh as anti-Sikh over the issue, but there was greater suspicion of him after revelations that he had been secretly met some leading separatist figures, including members of the British Sikh Council, to find common ground."

He was killed for promoting Sikh-Hindu unity by the powerful separatist groups who collaborate with Pakistan on point of anti-Indian, anti-Hindu agendas and seek to work with China as part of greater political agenda to divide up India and break off Jammu, Kashmir and Punjab. And dear, that's what's really behind the mainstream rhetoric being spouted in Sikh sangat and why it is so oppositional to anything Hindu in Sikh heritage.


"The government of New Dehli made an official protest for the content of an article appeared on a Chinese site that aims to divide India in “20-30 small states” giving support to guerillas and nationalist movements present on the territory of the great nation or abroad.

Posted on April 8 on the website www.iiss.cn (International Institute for Strategic Studies) the article detailed a roadmap for breaking up India. There it is stated: “To split India, China can bring into its fold countries like Pakistan, Nepal and Bhutan, support ULFA in attaining its goal in Assam’ independence, back aspirations of Indian nationalities like Tamil and Nagas, encourage Bangladesh to give a push to the independence of West Bengal and lastly recover the 90,000 sq km territory in southern Tibet.”
Balkanization of India: a roadmap of Beijing? (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=16113&size=A)

Diaspora especially has now had decades of mischievous parchaar by Khalistani factions and is RADICALLY anti-Hindu, so please, don't deny it. Can't even stomach that RAM actually means RAJA RAM, or that Chandi actually means Chandi Devi.

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 12:42 PM
Satay Ji writes:

"I wonder about this. Why won't the 'disrespect' of Guru Granth Sahib be tolerated?"

It's really just a propaganda war inflamed by forces utterly hostile to Sikhism, Hinduism, India, and authentic message of Guru Sahibaan. And sadly, if anyone really wants to research the issue and take of blinders of ignorant emotionally-charged agitating rhetoric...it is political.

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 12:55 PM
Why was this man killed?
http://a.images.blip.tv/Sandeepbagga-santRamaNandJi5351-21.jpg
Sant Baba Ramanand Ravidasi (center)


"VIENNA, (Xinhua) -- A shooting was occurred in the Austrian capital Vienna yesterday, which caused at least 16 people injured. The shooting incident happened in an Indian temple in Vienna. Due to the sermon by a Guru of Sikh from India, the temple attracted from 150 to 350 worshippers on that day.

According to the police, fighting happened when the Guru was preaching. Six men, with one armed with a gun and the others knives, tried to attack and shoot the preacher and his two aides.

Other worshippers rushed to his aid, unarmed and hit these six attackers, who were severely wounded and one of them was still in the risk of life, Bernhard Segal, an official from Emergency Center Vienna, said.

The spokesman for Vienna police Michael Takacs admitted that it was hard till now to know how many people were exactly affected in this incident, because the scene was chaotic and many people fled, when the shooting happened.

According to the Austria Press Agency (APA), the preaching Guru was also injured by shooting, and his two aides were severely wounded with the risk of life."
At least 16 worshippers hurt in Vienna shooting (http://www.philstar.com/article.aspx?articleid=471180)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45868000/jpg/_45868548_007437919-1.jpg
Sant Baba Ramanand Ji's bhog

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 01:08 PM
So suspiciously it was radical Dal Khalsa, which had earlier in the year publicly called for Sikh community to "Smash" using any force necessary those sects and deras who were "undermining Sikh fundamentals." Interestingly, same Dal Khalsa body actively promoted with life size posters Babbar Khalsa leaders, Khalistan Zindabad Force leaders, and these are two militant groups which initially took public credit for the Ravidasi assassination, and as the public backlash created riots in Punjab and was literally known to be botched as shooting into a sangat of women and children and harming innocents, both militant bodies immediately denied involvement.

That left Dal Khalsa holding the bag, which publicly pressured Akal Takht head jathedar and SGPC to fund an international team of lawyers to defend the Ravidasi shooters while maintaining culpable deniability.


"Chandigarh, Aug 11 (IANS) Radical Sikh group Dal Khalsa Tuesday demanded the Sikhs’ highest temporal body, the Akal Takht and Amritsar-based Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) send a joint fact-finding team to Vienna to probe the May shoot-out at a gurdwara there.
“We want them to send a team to Vienna to ascertain the reasons and circumstances that led to the shootout at the gurdwara,” Dal Khalsa spokesperson Kanwarpal Singh said.

The Dal Khalsa also submitted a memorandum to the Akal Takht jathedar (highest priest) and urged him to lend a legal support for the suspects of the Vienna incident.

“All the suspects have full right to defend themselves in a court of law and the jathedar should arrange a team of lawyers from Punjab and Europe to plead their case,” added Singh.

Widespread violence erupted in Punjab following a bloody clash in the Vienna gurdwara May 24, where the top two leaders of the Dera Sachh Khand sect, who are followers of Guru Ravidass and belong to the Dalit Sikh community, were attacked with knives and firearms.

While the sect head Niranjan Dass was injured seriously in the attack, his second in command, Sant Rama Nand Dass, died from gunshot wounds."
Dal Khalsa urges apex Sikh body to probe Vienna shoot-out (http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/dal-khalsa-urges-apex-sikh-body-to-probe-vienna-shoot-out_100231069.html)

Then followed the ridiculous denials. This was an internal squabble and Ravidasis did it themselves. Indian government grew beards and pretended to be Sikhs and did it so Sikhs would look bad. It wasn't Jats against Chamars...even as internet and Sikh forums exploded with anti-Chamar hatred. And it so clearly was what Indian intelligence had been warning about, a joint Sikh militant-Pakistani jihadi effort to destabilize Punjab and create sectarian violence. And the most obvious fact of all, all these assassinations are directed at SANATAN SIKHS!~

Killers of Sant Ramanand Ji - NeverForget 24May 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lNrmI8Wyzc)

PAKHANDI SANT RAMANAND MAA CHOD CHAMARDA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUnARsmqVT4&feature=related)

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by darshansingh

Harjas Kaur, you are brilliant. (This is sarcasm, for the uninitiated)

Now its high time you put photos of baba ashutosh, baba dera sacha sauda and nirankari baba and tell everybody that they are sikhs, and what they preach is sikhism.

The name "Kaur" lifted you from being an ordinary girl to a "Princess"
Don't insult the guru who made you the "Princess"

http://www.indiabuzzing.com/wp-content/uploads/sikh_protests1.jpeg
Sikh protests and public death threats against Baba Ram Rahim of Dera Sacha Sauda for crime of dressing up like Guru Gobind Singh and making own amrit ceremony.

http://www.mynews.in/News/dailyimage/news/clashes.jpg
Sikhs protest Baba Asutosh


"Ludhiana: One person was killed and many were injured in a clash between police and Sikh protestors in Ludhiana on Saturday. Sikh protestors were tried to disrupt a religious conference of controversial sect leader Ashutosh Maharaj in this largest city of Punjab. Police fired in the air and lobbed tear gas on Sikh protesters who tried to attack the conference venue located on the Ludhiana-Chandigarh road.

"We tried to stop them but they attacked the police and tried to forcibly cross the barricades. They had come with full preparation and were carrying sticks and swords. To control the situation, police had to fire in the air to disperse mob," a police official said. At least 10 vehicles, including those of the police, were also damaged by the protesters. Police sources said that one person was killed due to a bullet injury in chest."
One killed, many injured in Ludhiana as protest goes violent (http://www.mynews.in/News/one_killed_many_injured_in_ludhiana_as_protest_goes_violent__N31973.html)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n34jHsvJD_A/R_3y9sc4g1I/AAAAAAAAERA/lcrIW9QvvAU/s400/870047700_51064019d1_b.jpg
Injured Bhai Amolak Singh jee comforted by Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, 1978 following the Sant Nirankari clash with Damdami Taksal and Akhand Kirtani Jatha protesters. Over 100 fundamentalist Sikhs protested the Sant Nirankari convention. Reports widely vary and have become exagerrated over time. So let's look at the police reports and see if it's similar to the violence we see happening today.


"All the evil they did was in the name of God. And they did all that was evil. The murder of innocents, torture, rape, extortion, the desecration of temples, the abuse of sanctuaries, and a limitless host of other crimes that do not bear mention next to these.

They did it, they said, to avenge the ‘injustices’ done to the Sikhs by the Hindus; to defend the Faith against the machinations of the ‘evil Brahmins’ who were out to destroy it; to protect the lives and liberties of ‘persecuted Sikhs’ against an inimical and communalised State.

They had simply borrowed their contemporary mythology from the Akalis. But the creed of hatred that had been propagated for decades was suddenly translated into action. Its source and centre remained in the Gurudwaras; but its idiom was now the bullet and the bomb.

Every instrument and strategy was adopted to perpetuate the myth, to authenticate it: selective killings; the alternating desecration of Hindu and Sikh religious places; sermons of a malevolent rage - anything that could drive a wedge between communities; anything that could incite a slaughter of the Hindus in the state, and a retaliatory pogrom against the Sikhs in the rest of India. That could have fulfilled their ambitions...

The most dramatic killings, the ones that were projected to the greatest extent by the terrorists themselves, were always of the Hindus, or of other ‘enemies of the Faith’, such as the ‘apostate Sant Nirankaris’. But the most consistent victims, and perhaps the most dreaded opponents of the terrorists, were Sikhs. The terrorists claimed to speak for the entire Panth. Thus, any Sikhs who questioned their authority to do so, who questioned their actions, who exposed the immorality of their methods was a far greater danger to them than the Hindus could ever be. They threatened the credibility of the great myth. And they, above all others, had to die for it...

The incident to which the genesis of the terrorist movement in Punjab is traced, occurred in April 1978. The SGPC White Paper gives the Akali version of the background against which violence occurred. "....the Nrinkaris of Delhi," it observes, "were clandestinely supported and promoted by the Government in pursuance of its policy to create a schism and ideological confusion among the Sikhs."2 And further, "The provocative utterances and activities brought the Nrinkaris into open clash with the Sikhs. In 1951, at Amritsar, the then Nrinkari Chief Avtar Singh, held a Satsang attended by his about two hundred followers [sic]. Some Sikhs clashed with the Nrinkari chief as he had committed an act of sacrilege by proclaiming himself a Guru in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib. These bickerings continued and ultimately the two important Sikh organisations known as the Damdami Taksal and the Akhand Kirtni Jatha also came forward to confront the attack of the Nrinkari...


The SGPC version is interesting, both in terms of what it attempts to conceal as of the mind-set it exposes. Given their own evaluation of the background, violence could easily have been predicted...

This is not all. Shortly before the ‘totally unarmed’ protesters set out for the venue of the Nirankari Convention, they had assembled in the Golden Temple, where the then Akali Dal Revenue Minister, Jeevan Singh Umranangal tried, unsuccessfully, to explain away the Government’s decision to allow the Nirankari Convention to take place. Bhindranwale interrupted the proceedings, shouting "We will not allow this Nirankari convention to take place. We are going to march there and cut them to pieces!"7 No precautionary measures were taken in response.

A procession of a few hundred agitated Sikhs, led by Bhindranwale and by Fauja Singh of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha, then left the Golden Temple and set out for the Nirankari Convention. On the way, in what was perhaps the first act of gratuitous violence by the future terrorists of ‘Khalistan’, they hacked off the arm of a Hindu sweetmeats seller. On arriving at the convention, they rushed the stage on which the chief of the Nirankaris was seated; Fauja Singh drew his sword and tried to behead the Nirankari leader; he was shot by a bodyguard. In the skirmish that followed, two of Bhindranwale’s followers, another eleven of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha, and three Nirankaris were killed [Bhindranwale himself is said to have fled the scene just as the violence broke out, and this was a sore point between him and the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. Fauja Singh’s widow often described Bhindranwale as a ‘coward’ for running away on this occasion, and blamed him for her husband’s death]."
Punjab: The Knights of Falsehood (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/nightsoffalsehood/falsehood4.htm)


Following the attack on Sant Nirankaris which resulted in 60 injuries from the Sikh side and 13 deaths, Bhindranwale offered to weigh the man in gold who would assassinate Sant guru Gurbachan Singh Nirankari. Ranjit Singh shot and killed him, and while still in prison serving the sentence was elected next Jathedar of Akal Takht.


The FIR named twenty people for the murder, including several known associates of Bhindranwale, who was also charged with conspiracy to murder. Ranjit Singh surrendered in 1983, and was in jail for 13 years. In 1990, while still in Tihar Jail, he was named the Akal Takht Jathedar, and took over the post when he was released in 1996.

According to a Hindustan Times report, Ranjit Singh said about the murder: "I have no regrets. I did it for the Panth (community)."

In 1997, the Delhi High Court upheld his conviction and cancelled bail. Ranjit Singh refused to surrender. The government quickly ordered a remission of the remaining part of his sentence to avoid a confrontation [10].

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 02:06 PM
Why was this man killed?

http://raibahadur.com/images/MahrazMaharaniJee1.jpg
Mahraz Darshan Das Ji


Author: LK
Date: 04-09-06 15:43

Who was Darshan Das, and what were his 'kartota' (i.e. why was he shot by Singhs in the UK)
Would appreciate a brief summary =)
----------------------------------
Author: R Singh
Date: 04-10-06 20:16

can someone please reply to this? I have close friends who believe in this person and they claim "terrorists" killed him because he was a threat to traditional Sikhi.
----------------------------------
Author: ...
Date: 04-11-06 03:56

Darshan daasi was an imposter Guru who called him self Guru. He use to do parchaar in sangat. His parchaar was sometimes calm and made sence. But it was the crazy things he started saying. He started to claim that every Singh and Kaur after Guru Gobind Singh aren't Gursikhs and there is no Khalsa. It was stupid things like that which resulted his death. I think it was Manjit Singh of UK who shot him when they were siting in sangat. At this time Manjit Singh was a new amritdhari Singh and had alot of josh inside him. After his life imprisonment his family was slandered left right and centre.
I believe Akaal Takhat should issue a Hukamnama stating that if any one attends the Darshan Daasi's son's sangat then they will be boycotted.
------------------------------------
Author: Moorakh Mugad Eean
Date: 04-11-06 04:13

To put it simply, he claimed he was above Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Mahraj, he disrespected our Gurus, and from what i hear he actually did be-addbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

He eventually claimed to be God and said that Guru Sahibaan were nothing in comparison.

After that someone pulled a gun on him at one of his programs and said,
"if you are God, then stop THIS", shooting him straight in the head.

One of his sevadaars were also shot.
-------------------------------------
Author: LK
Date: 04-11-06 09:26

The Singhs were Manjit Singh and Rajinder Singh and recieved 20/30 years of imprisonment (not sure who got how much)

Thanks.
-------------------------------------
Author: seva
Date: 04-11-06 10:51

Darshan das did some wrong things with his female followers.

His entorage was bricked by sangat in Gravesend. A little while later, he was shot in Southall.

His son does funny parchaar. It is so basic, you know straight away he is no spiritual person. Most local granthis do better parchaar than him. Listening to his parchaar is like going to kindergarten.
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Author: yo
Date: 04-11-06 11:08

he put guru ji in a suitcase and sat on the suitcase, the two singhs dressed as some of his snaget members and went to one of his programs and shot him, the two singhs were then attacked by the darshan dasi sangat and were imprisoned, they are supposed to be out in a year or two, i have pictures of these gursikhs and i will try to scan them and upload on here
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Author: LK
Date: 04-12-06 02:38

he put guru ji in a suitcase and sat on the suitcase, the

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any evidence?
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Author: singhee laad
Date: 04-20-06 06:48

Rajinder Singh and Manjit singh are true Lions of the panth, they punished that badmash dassi'a properly. his dera is nearby and i know the kurtoota he used to get up to.

He was doing what the RSS is doing now in the 80's, he would promote indian nationalism, and openly condemn the sikh freedom movement.

as previous posts have stated he would also twist gurbani and insult guru sahbian, he has his own greeting... "nanak naam chardi kala ther bahnae sarbaht da bhala"

All his followers would wear tilaks, he would sit on a throne and called him self maharaj darshan daas jee.

those sooorbeer yode, couldnt take this and took the right action, at the trial the judge said that all they had to do was admit that they did wrong and he would sentance them leniantly, they said that they did right and they would do it again, they are serving life.

They send letters from jail, this letters put me to shame, the chardi kala of these singhs is unbelievable, they are so inspiring and still urge the youth to fight all the anti-panthic elements that exist. i will try and post one of their letters on here.....

If we had more gursikhs like thses all these sadhs would think twice before acting....
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Author: Raj Singh
Date: 04-25-06 05:43

WJKK WJKF

Darshan Das was not punished for talking against the freedom movement; he was punished for the following reasons:

 He called himself the true and last guru; he made mockery of the Sikh Gurus and the great Shaheeds of the Khalsa Panth. He referred to himself has Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

 He sat higher than Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaaj, no satkhar (respect) was given to Guru Maharaj, and he distorted Gurbani and made people believe that he was the true savior.

 He preached that Sikhs and Sikhi do not exist, and that Sikhs are a mixture of Hindus and Muslims , we should all be clean shaven and wear white turbans with white dhotis and we should all have a red tilak on our fore heads.

 He destroyed hundreds of families in desperate need, with trickery and by using standard magic tricks and black magic. Families where broken up and women began to abandon their children to live with him and his bodyguards.

 Bullying, intimidation, rape and black mail was used by him and his followers to extort money and stop people leaving.

Bhai Rajinder Singh and Manjit Singh watched his occult grow in two years, one needs to ask the question, where does one who is supposed to be a victim of the 1984 riots, gets the money to set up 24 bases in England

Bhai Rajinder Singh and Manjt Singh followed Dashan Dasi for six months, before carrying out the mission. The two Lions presented themselves before Guru Maharaaj just like Bhai Beant & Satwant Singh, did Ardaas took a Hukamnama,

Both the Singhs gunned down Darshan Dasi in Southall in front of 400 people, along with two of his armed bodyguards. Both Singhs stood their ground and were beaten and severely wounded by his followers, but did not fire back or fight back.

In true Khalsa tradition the Singhs did not plead insanity, or show any regret or remorse for what they did.

Bhai Rajinder Singh was sentenced to 30 years imprisonment, and Bhai Manjit was sentenced to 20 years. Bhai Rajinder sacrificed the love of his two young children and wife to up hold the tradition of the Khalsa.

Whilst in prison the two lions commissioned and edited a set of magazines, call ‘Khalistan dian Gunyaa’ occasionally writing from prison to inspire others around them.

Fateh
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Author: Humble Das
Date: 05-02-06 07:38


i would just like to say al the above messages are rumours and have no firm evidence in what is being said, i am aware of many Darshan Dassi followers and have nothing against these individuals they have not put down the Sikh faith in anyway. To be honest they encouraged me to practice my Sikh faith more so. to discuss any issues re photos in the Des Pardes etc just shows how low individuals will go, pictures of his dead body and other things that have been mentioned are insulting weather they are good or bad individuals. You all discuss issues re: Pro indian government etc, why have we decided to bring politics into our faith?

Remember the almight Nanak is the only supreme who can judge. To take any man/womans life is a sin!
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Author: ME
Date: 01-30-07 14:57

Maharaj Darshan Das he was the best Individual that actually preached the truth. All he ever wanted and preached was to love one another and no fighting. Yet at such a young age because of two hedious people who shot and killed him and two other great followers back in 87' just because they felt he was a threat to the Sikh community. The sad part is they never really saw the beauty and practical guidance that he was offering. He always said at the end of the day, it's up to you if you want to put the guidance to good use. That did not give them the right to assassinate him. Personally, they were chickens instead of communicate their feelings and beliefs they tried to act like followers with guns. They not only killed such a good person, but they took a Husband away from his wife, a father away from his sons, and a good leader from his followers. I will always say. He was the best person to enter in our lives. He was not a threat to anyone. It's sad that the murders did not see that way. Maharaji always said "Always do good for others in your life." Is that why he got assassinated! It's going to be almost 20yrs since he passed. As a follow, I miss him very much. His good works are part of my memories and those murderers can never take that away from the followers. He was only in his 30's. The murderes spoilt it for themselves, their families, and us. We loved him very much and his presence are deeply missed. A good person was taken away from us and now we have to pay the consequences because of the murderers heinous act. Believe in yourself and God, there was never any need to do this. He was not a threat to anyone or anything!
Darshan Das (http://tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=77978&t=77978)

"The most dramatic killings, the ones that were projected to the greatest extent by the terrorists themselves, were always of the Hindus, or of other ‘enemies of the Faith’, such as the ‘apostate Sant Nirankaris’. But the most consistent victims, and perhaps the most dreaded opponents of the terrorists, were Sikhs.

The terrorists claimed to speak for the entire Panth. Thus, any Sikhs who questioned their authority to do so, who questioned their actions, who exposed the immorality of their methods was a far greater danger to them than the Hindus could ever be. They threatened the credibility of the great myth. And they, above all others, had to die for it..." ~K.P.S. Gill, Knights of Falsehood.

Harjas Kaur
01 September 2010, 02:16 PM
Sadly, we are well beyond the point of no return when it comes to Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts.

Why was this man killed?
http://media.canada.com/1ceaa7d7-3889-4f4c-9003-991895e62419/%20SUN0626-Hayer.jpg
Tara Singh Hayer, journalist paralyzed in one assassination attempt and killed in the other.


"Dave Hayer can still remember his mother’s screams as he arrived at the family’s house in Surrey after getting a panicked call from his sister about an emergency. “They killed him, they killed him,” his mom Baldev cried, as his three sisters tried to comfort her. Tara Singh Hayer, already paralysed in a 1988 attempt on his life, had been gunned down in the garage of his Surrey home. It was just before dinner on Nov. 18, 1998. He was 62.

Now, 10 years after the assassination of the outspoken publisher of the Indo-Canadian Times, The Vancouver Sun has learned there were at least three simultaneous plots to kill Hayer, all linked to his vocal criticism of the tactics used by a handful of violent Sikh separatists in B.C...

Hayer made enemies because of his commentary in the Times, the Surrey-based Punjabi language newspaper he had published for years. He regularly targeted militants in the International Sikh Youth Federation and the Babbar Khalsa, groups that were later banned as terrorist in Canada.

But Hayer had a secret he had shared with just a few before his murder — he had agreed to be a witness in the Air India case, having told the RCMP that he once overheard Babbar Khalsa leader Ajaib Singh Bagri confess to the plot.

An assassination. A dead journalist. A witness in the Air India case.

All make the Hayer murder different from a standard homicide. It is different because of “the type of crime that it is and the fact that it is linked totally to the Air India bombing,” Bass said."No charges in Tara Singh Hayer's assassination, 10 years later (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=621ad684-c6a1-4939-a32f-3539ffd2b3f3)


Air India 182 - Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk)

MP Ujjal Dosanjh target of Facebook threats (http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/QPeriod/20100423/Ujjal-Dosanjh-facebook-threats-100423/)

kv_rangan
07 May 2011, 02:34 PM
Sadly, we are well beyond the point of no return when it comes to Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts.

Why was this man killed?
http://media.canada.com/1ceaa7d7-3889-4f4c-9003-991895e62419/%20SUN0626-Hayer.jpg
Tara Singh Hayer, journalist paralyzed in one assassination attempt and killed in the other.




Air India 182 - Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk)

MP Ujjal Dosanjh target of Facebook threats (http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/QPeriod/20100423/Ujjal-Dosanjh-facebook-threats-100423/)

Hmm... I think Darshan Singh (surd) has given up. lol... foolish man. Men the Akali Sikhs have become like jihadis. We Hindus must stop them. Never show any mercy to them (only if they trouble us). Wage a Dharamyudh if they trouble us. Remember Ahimsa Paramo dharma, Himsa tataiva cha. After all peace attempts have failed, a Just-War must be declared as said in Bhagavad Geeta.

Jai Hind.

Believer
05 January 2012, 12:08 PM
Namaste,

Aah, the times gone by in this forum, when we learnt so much about history!

Pranam.

satay
05 January 2012, 03:16 PM
namaste,
I really don't know what's going on with the canadian sikhs of today? I watch some punjabi shows on sat and I don't know why sikhs today are shunning their history and reinventing it, breaking all ties with hinduism as if sikhism just popped out of the sky out of thin air? WT Heck is going on here. What's the agenda of these sikhs? They are saying Ram mentioned in the Granth is not the same Ram as hindus worshipped, that punjabi customs and riwaz were imposed on them by the brahmins??? that all current understanding of sikh culture and religious understanding is wrong that the interpertations were done or influenced by brahmins for the past 200 years? What?

Are you experiencing the same Beliver or is this happening only in canadian sikhs?

Then I saw shows where they are celebrating christmas, talking to baptists for their 'work in the community' yet they reject hindu culture and india? What's going on here? Some Sikhs seem to be completely confused about their history.

Believer
05 January 2012, 06:00 PM
Namaste,

I think many factors influence the behavior of every ethnic group.

In the US, the sikhs started arriving in small numbers in the early 20th century to work on the farms in the Central Valley area of California. But the change in the US Immigration quotas enabled significant number of Indians to start arriving on the American shores only in the 1960's. The US Govt. was very selective in allotting immigration visas only to professionals. So, most people in the early waves were well educated and open minded. This has led to some Gurudwaras being run by the orthodox and some by the liberal educated sikhs. But even in the liberal ones, the 'granthis' have to tow the SGPC line and dish out the bull about Ram and Krishan mentioned in the GGS being different from the Hindu deities. Their numbers being small in the cities, and them being under siege (as muslim looking) after the 9/11, there is not much of 'in your face' type of behavior.

We all try to cling to our cultural identity, sometimes by overdoing things we would not have done in India. For example, in India, the temples are everywhere and we don't fuss about them. But, over here, it becomes a cultural center, a meeting place for all shades of Hindus, a place to celebrate your identity. So we cherish it more and get uptight over minor perceived or real insults to our faith in the media, or among mainstream population. Our customs, and Mandir, and celebration of festivals serve as a way to preserve our cultural heritage; something that the second generation does not care much about. Similarly, sikhs also want to preserve their separate identity, in an attempt to keep their traditions alive. To a degree, it is understandable and acceptable. But the under/un-educated ones tend to cling to the threads of their faith so tightly, that they end up making things up, merely to reinforce their separateness. It is very unfortunate but the brainwashing is more intense and taking a bigger hold in Canada than in the US. Add to that the edict of SPGC for them to follow the 'official' distorted interpretation of GGS in all gurudwaras, and it makes for an unpleasant sight.

Another factor that emboldens them in Canada is their numbers and their political influence. In the US, I would say, >70&#37; of Indian immigrants are Gujratis and that marginalizes the influence of sikhs, even within the Indian community. So, in spite of whatever negativity the 'granthis' dutifully project in the gurudwaras against Hinduism, it is business as usual outside. I am sure, deep down, the 'granthis' here know that on this one point, they are wrong and are doing a disservice to their community. But they have to make a living, and would not dare to rectify it. The best that can be hoped is that the new generation of educated Indians of all ethnicities, who intermarry and are not too rigid about their sects/traditions/ethnic superiority, will bypass this indoctrination and lead the way to a community more accommodating to one another. The concept of 'National Integration' through inter-ethnic marriages, floated in India in the early 60's, seems to be taking hold outside of its borders.:) That just might usher in a different mindset, a mindset in which we share our commonalities rather than focus on our differences. And that is true for sikhs too. A sikh friend of mine has two daughters-in-law, one is Gujrati and the other one is Tamil (of course all men in the family are clean shaven). Who would have thought few years back that something like that could happen?

Pranam.

dogra
02 February 2012, 08:23 AM
Who cares what a number of Sikhs choose to believe or not, who cares, its their free choice, let it go, let it go.
Lets focus on our faith and leave others to theres.

Believer
01 January 2015, 11:14 PM
Namaste,

This thread has not had any contributions for quite some time and many of the newer members might find some of the posts in this thread interesting.

Pranam.