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yajvan
20 October 2006, 08:14 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste

How can this be?
It is said that when we’re in deep sleep (sushupti avastha), the senses, mind, etc merge and we rest in the SELF or Atman. The jiva becomes non-dual consciousness in deep sleep, a state of turiya.

If the definition of moksha is the absence of duality, no subject and no object, without individuality, i.e. one-ness , this is achieved in deep sleep.
If this is so, when we awake back to jagrat avastha, or waking state, we return to duality and multiplicity, ignorance. How can this be? How can we visit Brahman in deep sleep and not bring this infusion of SELF back?

sarabhanga
20 October 2006, 11:43 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

Consciousness in deep sleep or prajna is equated with pure sattva guna, but guna itself exists only in duality!

The prajna jiva (without any perception or memory) has a subconscious experience of the Atman as saguna Brahman.

The turiya jiva (with full awareness and recollection) has a super-conscious experience of the Atman as nirguna Brahman.

While the immortal jiva remains attached (however subtly) to the mortal frame, it will always return to vaishvanara.

atanu
21 October 2006, 11:36 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

----While the immortal jiva remains attached (however subtly) to the mortal frame, it will always return to vaishvanara.


This perplexes me. Is the pull of Vaisvanara stronger than that of the Turiya? In Gaudiya cirlces a poem by Brezeniski or some one goes around. In it Shiva says: Though Radhe is immersed fully in Shiva but She only desires to unite with you Hari.


What does it mean?


Lets hope we attract some ISKCON friends also.

yajvan
21 October 2006, 12:22 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Consciousness in deep sleep or prajna is equated with pure sattva guna, but guna itself exists only in duality!
Namaste sarabhanga,
Yes, this is true... we can understand, then, why Sri Kesava says ' be without the guna's ... possessed of the SELF' (BG 2.45)

Your response is insightful and thank you...

Another consideration or approach to this question is viewing it thus:
In deep sleep, one is without duality, that is, unaware of duality, yet what is missing ?...the fullness of awareness. In kavalya one is in full awareness, where there is no room for duality, not just the absense of it, but the presence of Bhuma.

Yet one wakes up and says' I slept well ' How so? the complete absence of experience, and that refreshment that comes from being outside of duality, even for a short time, as all the senses withdraw.
As one progresses and more pure consciousness shines though one increases in discrimination (vivika-khyati) and can percieve the distinction between buddhi and Purusha. Maharishi patanjali gives a sutra for this in his yoga sutras , to have the sadaka groom this ability i.e. samyama on the distinction beteen buddhi and Purusha. A knowlege is given and assists the sadhu, yet this is not the final realization from this sutra, just an adjunct.

pranams,

sarabhanga
21 October 2006, 11:27 PM
Is the pull of Vaisvanara stronger than that of the Turiya?

The dense material nature of Vaishvanara is the source of all gravity; and without total detachment from this passing variegated manifestation, that eternal realm (of pure illumination and elation exceeding the bounds of gravity and time) can only be glimpsed for a moment. One should cherish such timeless moments of communion and, indeed, seek them out. :)




Radhe is immersed fully in Shiva, but She only desires to unite with you Hari.

In advaita, the shakti of Maya is entirely subdued and submerged in Hara (Nara), in perfect stillness; but her passionate desire for creation (i.e. dvaita) seeks expression through Hari (Narayana).

atanu
01 November 2006, 10:40 AM
The dense material nature of Vaishvanara is the source of all gravity; and without total detachment from this passing variegated manifestation, that eternal realm (of pure illumination and elation exceeding the bounds of gravity and time) can only be glimpsed for a moment. One should cherish such timeless moments of communion and, indeed, seek them out. :)


In advaita, the shakti of Maya is entirely subdued and submerged in Hara (Nara), in perfect stillness; but her passionate desire for creation (i.e. dvaita) seeks expression through Hari (Narayana).


Pranam Sarabhanga Ji,

I think I have stumbled upon the answer. I just came across a sweet Bengali song, which I have reproduced (with approximate free English translation). I do not know the author. I salute him/her.

Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
Nirabe eshe daraile heshe
Prokhor tejo taba neharite nari
Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari

Rash bilasini ami ahirini
Shyamal kishore rupa shudhu chini
Ambare heri aj eki jyoti poonja
Hey girijapati kotha giridhari

Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari

Shambar shambar mahima taba
Hey brajesh bharaiv ami brajabala
Shambar shambar mahima taba
Hey brajesh bharaiv ami brajabala

Hey shiv sundar bagchala parihar
Dharo natabar bhesh paro nip mala
Naba megh chandane dakhi anga jyoti – jyoti
Priyo hoye dekha dayo trishuldhari
Parvati nohi ami ami srimati
Dishan feliya ho basuri dhari

Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
Nirabe eshe daraile eshe
Prokhor tejo taba neharite nari
Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
-------

Refulgent as the Sun who this ascetic mendicant
Silently smiling standing at the door?
Fierce the refulgence, my eyes are averted.

O, Shiva sundara, I am rasa enjoyer Ahirini.
I know the young dark one only.
In the sky I behold what mass of brilliance?
O, Girijapati, where is Giridhari?

Refulgent as the Sun who is this ascetic mendicant
Silently smiling standing at the door?


Unlimited is your splendour, O, Brajesh Bharaiva.
I am Brajabala. O, shiv sundar,
Remove the tiger skin adornment
Take up Natabar dress. Wear the garland.
Cover yourself up with new clouds
Come to me as my lover, O, Trishuldhari
Parvati I am not. I am Srimati.
Drop the Dishan, Take up the flute O, sundar shiva.

Refulgent as Sun who is this ascetic mendicant
Silently smiling standing at the door?


I am not ashamed to say that I cried hearing the song. I know with my reproduction the sweet ambience may not be re-created for the readers. Or may be?

It is we -- as Arjuna, as Radhe, as rishis – that pray to Him to show us the benevolent face only. None has a chance with that aggressive brilliance (Prakhar Rudra). Except the Keshins – who fly with him, drinking poison from his cup.



Om Namah Shivayya

sarabhanga
01 November 2006, 04:56 PM
Hari Om :)

Namaste Atanu,

“Arunkanti ke go jogi bhikhari” is a song (set in the early morning raga Ahir Bhairav) by the freedom-fighter poet Kazi Nazrul Islam (1899-1976). And the sentiment is perfect!

atanu
01 November 2006, 11:22 PM
Hari Om :)

Namaste Atanu,

“Arunkanti ke go jogi bhikhari” is a song (set in the early morning raga Ahir Bhairav) by the freedom-fighter poet Kazi Nazrul Islam (1899-1976). And the sentiment is perfect!


Pranam,

Your awareness is vast. Or are you bordering towards omniscience?

Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
Nirabe eshe daraile heshe
Prokhor tejo taba neharite nari
Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari


Regards

Namah Arunkanti