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Visvamitra
02 September 2010, 04:48 PM
In these 2 verses Naciketas reveals to Yama his 1st wish which is to have his father's anger cooled and to be released from Yama's grasp. Yama says Asan will be restless seeing his son returned from the fate to which he sent him [v. 4, 11].

Why does Naciketa refer to his father as Gautama in verse 10 and why does Yama refer to Naciketa as Auddalaka Aruni in verse 11? What do the two words in bold mean?

yajvan
02 September 2010, 08:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté
 
Let me offer the following as I have understood this kaṭhopaniṣad... others may vary and I look forward to their insights.

The son of vājaśravā is vājaśravasḥ - this is naciketas' father or vājaśravasḥ. Now this name is worthy of review and part of the opening of the upaniṣad.

It can be a ~title~ and/or a proper name. We can look at it as vāja + śravā i.e. one's fame (śravḥ) comes from giving food (vāja). So we can see this can be a ~title~ of doing a pious act (putra karma) or it can be a proper name.

Next naciketa calls his father gautama - a proper name. More on this later.

Last, yama calls gautama by another name auddālaki aruṇi. Now some authors say it this way, through my favor ( as yama is talking) auddālaki , the son of aruṇi will recognize you (naciketas) as before. Hence yama is calling out naciketas' father as the son of auddālaki. This, IMHO gives some merit to the notion that when 'vājaśravasḥ' is used in the first śloka it is of a ~title~ vs. a proper name.


Now there too is another view - that naciketas returns to this earth as aruṇi son of auddālaki, and that his father gautama will still recognize him upon seeing him. For this view I cannot recall where I read this , but will continue to keep my eyes open if in fact I find this source once again.

But what of this name gautama. It relates to gotama. We can also look at it like this go+tāma, and I will leave this conjecture for another post.

praṇām


words

naciketa नचिकेत- of a man; is rooted in 'cit' to perceive , fix the mind upon , attend to , be attentive , observe , take notice of ;
'na' is not , no , nor , neither.
Hence na + cit is to not take notice of, or be attentive or know.
keta केत desire , wish , will , intention ; is also rooted in cit ; Hence na + keta is without desire or wish - this applies to worldly attainments (he has no wish for) and is part of naciketas strength called out in this kaṭhopaniṣad.

Visvamitra
02 September 2010, 10:07 PM
The son of vājaśravā is vājaśravasḥ - this is naciketas' father or vājaśravasḥ.

I don't get what you mean here. I cannot read the original language. My translation has for the first verse: "Usan [this means desirous? - something to do with his sacrifice?], the son of Vajasravas, once gave away all his possessions. He had a son named Naciketas."

Are you connecting the possible meaning of Vajasravas with the act of Naciketas father?

I thought the name "Auddalaka Aruni" was what Yama was calling Naciketas since my translation makes it appear to me like it is he who Yama is dismissing. It says, "He'll be affable in the future, just as before; Auddalaka Aruni, I have dismissed you." [v. 11] However, you do state that "naciketas returns to this earth as aruṇi son of auddālaki, and that his father gautama will still recognize him upon seeing him", which makes sense to me. I was thinking while reading this that he'd be returned as his old self before his father sentenced him to Yama, that is, come back to life in the same body. In fact I was thinking his body was still inhabited by him as he made his way to Yama's home. This is not possible is it? If he is disembodied, what is it exactly that is him in Yama's realm? I mean, is it not his atman?

Visvamitra
03 September 2010, 01:34 AM
Since I brought it up, about him being disembodied, why would Naciketas ask about the transition, that is, what happens after death when he is in the after death?

yajvan
03 September 2010, 06:53 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté visvamitra,



I don't get what you mean here. I cannot read the original language. My translation has for the first verse: "Usan [this means desirous? - something to do with his sacrifice?], the son of Vajasravas, once gave away all his possessions. He had a son named Naciketas."

Are you connecting the possible meaning of Vajasravas with the act of Naciketas father?

Yes, this word can mean both i.e. The son of vājaśravā is vājaśravasḥ and this is naciketas' father or vājaśravasḥ.
And I said this in the last post: vāja + śravā i.e. one's fame (śravḥ) comes from giving food (vāja).

śravā = śravas - glory , fame, etc.
vāja = rice or food in general
In this kaṭhopaniṣad naciketas' father is addressed 3 ways:
1. son of vājaśravā or vājaśravasḥ
2. Gautama
3. aruṇi son of auddālaki or aruṇi auddālaki


Now the sacrifice ( yajña ) of naciketas' father is partaking of is the viśvajit ( all-conquering , all-subduing ) yajña .

This is a yajña as the name implies where the father wanted a sacrifice that allowed him to be all-conquering in his endeavors.
And this is where naciketas sees a blemish in his father's actions. For the yajña , his father gave less then he could afford - cows
that stopped yielding milk and that lost their vitality. This not in the spirit of yajña's , to give left overs or less then vibrant offerings.

Now in my last post I mentioned
But what of this name gautama. It relates to gotama. Yet we can also look at it like this go+tāma.

My point ( and only I make this connection, I was not taught this ) is, if we can also consider gautama -> to gotama and infer -> go+tāma. This is then go = gau = cow + tama = darkess and tāma = anxiety , distress.
So, what is my point ? Naciketas' father offered go+tāma ( or go+tama) or distressed cows as his offering. It is a very suble way of say it by being called 'gautama' in the 10th śloka by his son, naciketas.

praṇām

Visvamitra
03 September 2010, 09:03 PM
This not in the spirit of yajña's , to give left overs or less then vibrant offerings.

Yes, as Naciketas noted in verse 2: "'Joyless' are those worlds called, to which a man goes who gives them as gifts." Now is this the reason why he asked about himself to his father thrice, perhaps seeing himself as a better sacrifice? That does not make sense to me that he would think in this manner and I'm not clear on why he should ask about what should happen to him in this manner. I thought the sacrifice of Usan/Vajasravash [son of Vajasrava] was what is sarvamedha [sacrifice of all] which is imo why Naciketas would probably ask him concerning his being given away.


Naciketas' father offered go+tāma ( or go+tama) or distressed cows as his offering. It is a very suble way of say it by being called 'gautama' in the 10th śloka by his son, naciketas.

That's an interesting connection to the earlier part in this episode. Do you think Naciketas 2nd wish [v. 13] was related to this event?

yajvan
03 September 2010, 10:49 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté visvamitra,



Now is this the reason why he asked about himself to his father thrice, perhaps seeing himself as a better sacrifice? That does not make sense to me that he would think in this manner and I'm not clear on why he should ask about what should happen to him in this manner.
The offerings of his father for the yajña was more of a relief of burdens ( exhausted cows ) then the proper offering that is suggested. That is, for the viśvajit ( all-conquering , all-subduing ) yajña , all one's wealth is to be offered.
Now, naciketas knows this, that his father was too frugal a giver, but yet did not wish to offend his father. He also knows that one's son is the highest possession a father has, so giving away a son would be the highest gift to give. That is why he provokes his father 3 times. If he is given way , then naciketas knows this will fulfill his father's obligation. This is being the dutiful and obedient son, and is the path of dharma. This is why naciketas is so special a son and the uttama adhikārī ( highest order of seeker).


uttama - elevated, first, best, excellent

adhi+kārī - adhi = over and above + kārī = determination, the act of worship

praṇām

Visvamitra
04 September 2010, 01:06 AM
Good stuff, thanks.

atanu
04 September 2010, 05:27 AM
Since I brought it up, about him being disembodied, why would Naciketas ask about the transition, that is, what happens after death when he is in the after death?

Namaste Visvamitra

Death is the bank that separates here from the yonder that is on the other bank of death and that is immortality. Nachiketa is not interested to remain under control of Death, who has then the power to send Nachiketa back again and again, robbing him of his memory.

Nachiketa persistently asks as below:


1-I-29. O Death, tell us of that, of the great Beyond, about which man entertain doubt. Nachiketas does not pray for any other boon than this which enters into the secret that is hidden.


And later, the greatest of teachers, explains:


1-II-6. The means of attaining the other world does not become revealed to the non-discriminating one who, deluded by wealth, has become negligent. He who thinks, ‘this world alone is and none else’ comes to my thraldom again and again.
......
Gautama is actually one of the Seven Rishis (Seven Prana-s) that make up man. Aruni is of that line. You can hear about another Gautama, Vamadeva in Rig Veda who argues and wins over Indra, the Mukhya prAna.


Hope this compliments what already have been said.


Om Namah Shivaya

saidevo
05 September 2010, 10:59 AM
namaste everyone.

The Rg Veda sUktam 10.135 whose RShi is KumAraH YAmAyana and Devata is Yama, Lord of Death,--RL kAshyap calls this hymn 'Return from the house of death while living'--speaks about RShi KumAra ascending to the world of Yama through a chariot fashioned by his mind that leaves an opening for his return journey. SAyaNAchArya sees a connection between this sUktam and the Nachiketa story of the KaThA upaniShad.

• In verse 1.1.10 of KaThA up. Nachiketa addresses his father as Gautama. SvAmi KRShNAnanda says "There was a sage called VAjashravasa, known also as Gautama." (note 1)

• Shankara's commentary on verse 1.1.1 runs as follows:

"ushan--being desirous of; ha and vai (equivalent to--once upon a time) are two indeclinable particles, recalling to mind what happened before. VAjashravasA is he whose shrava--fame, is consequent on giving of vAjam--food. Or it is a proper name. His son VAjashravasa, being desirous of the fruit of the sacrifice, performed the Vishvajit sacrifice in which all is given away. In that sacrifice he dadau--gave away, sarvadedasam--all his wealth; tasya--of him, of that performer of sacrifice, Asa--there was, ha--as the story goes, nachiketA nAma putraH--a son named Nachiketa."

• Shankara explains thus about the names AuddAlaki, AruNi in verse 1.1.11 (note 2):

"Uddalaka and AuddAlaki refer to the same (person). And he is AruNiH, son of AruNa; or he bears two family names."

SvAmi GambhIrAnanda, translating Shankara's commentary, has this to offer about the "two family names":

"The suffix in auddAlaki may not add any meaning to the original word uddAlaka, or it may signify the son of UddAlaka. In the latter case, he becomes a scion of the UddAlakas as also of the AruNas. This was possible when a brotherless girl was given in marriage with the stipulation that her son would be counted as belonging to either family, so that the offering of the rice balls, etc. to the departed of both the lines might be guaranteed."

• MahAbhArata, anushAsana parva, chapter 71, has a different story about Nachiketa:

This hermit (UddAlaka) is known as Uddalaki also. Once this hermit happened to forget that he had left flowers, food and his watcrpot on the bank of the river and reaching his hermitage, he asked his son Nachiketa to fetch them from the bank of the river. When Nachiketa reached the bank of the river, those things had been washed down by the current. The son returned and reported the matter to his father. The father got angry and cursed his son to death. Seeing the son lying dead on darbha (mattress made of darbha grass) the hermit cried aloud. In that flow of tears life returned to the body and the son woke up as if from sleep. The father asked the son about the news of the realm of Yama (the god of death) and the son told the hermit the news about the world of the dead.

• From the MahAbhArata story, it seems that Nachiketa's death in the KaThA upaniShad was actually caused by his father's curse. Another interpretation offers that Nachiketa was an advanced soul even as a boy, so witnessing the events of the sacrifice wherein his father gave defective cows in charity, he took a vow of a saMnyAsi, renouncing his three forms in the bhu, bhuva, suvarga--earth, astral and heavenly worlds, which is why he asked his father thrice about what the latter intended about him in charity, since he was also among the father's belonging. (note 3).

Notes:
1. 'The Secret of the KaThA upaniShad' by svAmi KRShNAnanda
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/katha/The%20Secret%20of%20the%20Katha%20Upanishad%20by%20Swami%20Krishnananda.pdf

2. 'Eight Upanishads with the commentary of ShankarAchArya vol.1'
Translated by svAmi GambhIrAnanda, Advaita Ashrama, Calcutta.

'KaThA and Prashna upaniShad with shrI Shankara's commentary'
by S.SItArAma shAstri
http://www.archive.org/download/kathaandprasnaup029591mbp/kathaandprasnaup029591mbp.pdf

3. 'The Yoga of the KaThopaniShad' by shrI KRShNa Prem
http://www.archive.org/download/cu31924023202264/cu31924023202264.pdf

This book also deals with what the author supposes to be the correspondences in the Western religious legends to the truths in the KaThA upanishad.

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