Whats Advaita's position on submission/surrender to God?

[Kumar_Das]

Important thread discussion.

Directed at atanu-ji to respond mainly.

[kallol]

As I feel

It is understanding the knowledge of GOD and aligning to it.

It is neither submission nor surrender but elevate oneself to the knowledge level of the whole system POV.

It is the feeling that I am because "I" is.

Love and best wishes

[atanu]

Important thread discussion.

Directed at atanu-ji to respond mainly.

Namaste Kumar

I do not know why you have asked for this, nevertheless, i will comply. Have you ever demanded/requested food from your mother when hungry?

Suppose a young chap comes home hungry and shouts "Mom, food". Mom brings the food and the young chap flares up "What is this? The same tasteless fare everyday. I want chicken fry from KFC." Mom has seen enough of this, but still pleads that the food was wholesome, prepared with love especailly for him. But the young guy is adamant. Then mother withdraws the food and the young chap also declares "I will fast". Sometime later, mother comes and asks "Son, have your food please". No. Son can still bear the pangs of hunger and thus turns away both mother and food, showing her his power.

So, people at home all forgot about this guy who now was repenting as rats were running in his stomach and he could bear the hunger no more. So, the egotist that I was, I went and wrote on a wall with a piece of chalk "OK, If you request me again, I will eat food."

That worked. I ate. And since, I was hungry, the food tasted good. But the egotist remained egotist and such love-hate episodes continued.

Had, I been a little wiser, I would have pondered "I am of Her. She loves me so much. If I do not eat she will also not eat and she will suffer and will be pained." Realising the love, I would then have gone and hugged her and begged or demanded "Mother, I am hungry, give me food".

Om Namah Shivaya

[Kumar_Das]

Namaste Kumar

I do not know why you have asked for this, nevertheless,

Namaste atanu,

Understandable. And I would like to answer them without being told to.

Several reasons.

1) Saranagati is a foundational tenet of Vishishta Advaita, Dvaita, Achintya Bheda Abheda and to a lesser extent in all other Hindu sects; Shaivism and Shaktaism.

2) Advaita says monotheism is not the "highest"/ultimate truth. And so therefore am curious to see why saranagati would be wrong/or not so right.

3) (personally) Because I like Advaita and respect its stance on tenets of other doctrines


i will comply. Have you ever demanded/requested food from your mother when hungry?

Is this like a rhetorical question?


Suppose a young chap comes home hungry and shouts "Mom, food". Mom brings the food and the young chap flares up "What is this? The same tasteless fare everyday. I want chicken fry from KFC." Mom has seen enough of this, but still pleads that the food was wholesome, prepared with love especailly for him. But the young guy is adamant. Then mother withdraws the food and the young chap also declares "I will fast". Sometime later, mother comes and asks "Son, have your food please". No. Son can still bear the pangs of hunger and thus turns away both mother and food, showing her his power.

So, people at home all forgot about this guy who now was repenting as rats were running in his stomach and he could bear the hunger no more. So, the egotist that I was, I went and wrote on a wall with a piece of chalk "OK, If you request me again, I will eat food."

That worked. I ate. And since, I was hungry, the food tasted good. But the egotist remained egotist and such love-hate episodes continued.

Had, I been a little wiser, I would have pondered "I am of Her. She loves me so much. If I do not eat she will also not eat and she will suffer and will be pained." Realising the love, I would then have gone and hugged her and begged or demanded "Mother, I am hungry, give me food".

Om Namah Shivaya

I have absolutely no clue what you are trying to explain here.

I don't see surrender to God simply as something of an emotional or psychological affair.

I also disagree with the muhammadan concept of submission meaning "submitting to the 'will' of Allah". The muhammadan understanding of "submission" seems to be following what is dicated in the holy scripture fully.

In Vaishnavism, saranagati is much more elaborate and spiritual than simply abiding what is mandated/or stop being rebellious and instead choosing to listen what is being expected. Also as in the way you say seems like it is childish or something? (again I am not sure what it is that you are exactly trying to say)

Pranam

[kallol]

Namaste atanu,

Understandable. And I would like to answer them without being told to.

Several reasons.

1) Saranagati is a foundational tenet of Vishishta Advaita, Dvaita, Achintya Bheda Abheda and to a lesser extent in all other Hindu sects; Shaivism and Shaktaism.

2) Advaita says monotheism is not the "highest"/ultimate truth. And so therefore am curious to see why saranagati would be wrong/or not so right.

3) (personally) Because I like Advaita and respect its stance on tenets of other doctrines




I also disagree with the muhammadan concept of submission meaning "submitting to the 'will' of Allah". The muhammadan understanding of "submission" seems to be following what is dicated in the holy scripture fully.

In Vaishnavism, saranagati is much more elaborate and spiritual than simply abiding what is mandated/or stop being rebellious and instead choosing to listen what is being expected. Also as in the way you say seems like it is childish or something? (again I am not sure what it is that you are exactly trying to say)

Pranam

Dear Kumar,

Though the answer is expected from Atanu, I am trying my imaginative best to provide some clue.

The reason # 1 has to be universally true for people in the spiritual path as it is the base foundation on which the other activities are laid.

Just like for PhD you need to have a guide and entire faith on him to take you through. This because the path to the results is intially blind, then uphill hard work. Thereafter some rays of iideation which results in more deliberate actions. Thereafter the knowledge and and downhill part to the results.

Similarly the saranagati is the development of bhakti phase. The guide is the God and faith is the bhakti through saranagati.

With this one starts studing all scriptures like Chaitanya dev's life, bhagavatam, upanishads, geeta, etc. The initial reading is blind - not much goes into the head.

Side by side working on the character of mind through developing niskama love, bhakti, karma, etc. The mind slows down, becomes calm. Likes and dislikes become less strong, etc. This is the blind hard work part.

Slowly and surely through repeated discourses, reading, being in the environment, the mind start recognising the knowledge. This knowledge base widens and now the mind is able to recognise the subtle messages, differences in the thought processes. The knowledge is built up in such a way that the mind slowly turns its direction of knowledge search from external sources to internal sources.

All through this the faith and devotion increases. But the difference is in the type of faith and devotion.

The initial devotion and faith is blind and to someone we do not know. Slowly and surely that someone becomes my friend, family and ultimately me. This faith and devotion towards someone external slowly turns towards inside where the "I" is. That knowledge of being same with "I" lifts the mind upto a level where it merges the devotion, faith, fullness and desires. This is a level of saturation and equilibrium.

Advaita is that peak where the science (present and future) and spirituality meet. There is no difference between the end point of both of them. This is not the case for the others on the way to the peak.

At that peak it becomes difficult to say whether we should term the point as God or Science. But as Advaita sees from the spiritual POV, it terms the whole system as God which is the superset of pakriti and purusha. Whereas the Science may find it natural and nothing which needs intervention (from God).

This can be said in many ways.

Love and best wishes

[Ekanta]

As I understand it: Advaita is complete Saranagati (with jnana).

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


As I understand it: Advaita is complete Saranagati (with jnana).
This sāraṇagati is considered a form of surrender. Yet the word is most intriguing ( to me).
sāraṇagati = sāraṇa +gati which is the motion (gati) that leads home (sāraṇa). Home in this case is the Supreme.

Yet if I write it like this saraṇagati ( without the long ā ) - then saraṇa +gati could be running, going (saraṇa) to gati. And gati is also
defined as happiness - running to happiness. What is the ultimate happiness ? The Supreme.

Some say sāraṇagati = prapatti. This is defined as devotion.
praṇām

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté
This sāraṇagati is considered a form of surrender. Yet the word is most intriguing ( to me).
sāraṇagati = sāraṇa +gati which is the motion (gati) that leads home (sāraṇa). Home in this case is the Supreme.

Yet if I write it like this saraṇagati ( without the long ā ) - then saraṇa +gati could be running, going (saraṇa) to gati. And gati is also
defined as happiness - running to happiness. What is the ultimate happiness ? The Supreme.

Some say sāraṇagati = prapatti. This is defined as devotion.
praṇām

Namaste Yajvanji

As far as I know, it is saranagati, which is best approximated by the english 'taking refuge' --- and in this case, 'unconditional refuge'.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste atanu,

In Vaishnavism, saranagati is much more elaborate and spiritual than simply abiding ------

Pranam

Namaste

Sorry Kumar. I am not aware of this elaborate and (spiritual) saranagati. Anyway, the earlier post of mine may not be for you, since you are aware of it in much more elaborate fashion.

For me saranagati is childlike (or very wise and thus again childlike) and actually is also equal to dropping all elaborate concepts.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Rasa1976]

2) Advaita says monotheism is not the "highest"/ultimate truth. And so therefore am curious to see why saranagati would be wrong/or not so right.

Namaste Kumar Das,

We can look at Gita Bhasya 18:66;

"Abandoning all righteous deeds, seek Me as thy sole Refuge, I will liberate thee from all sins, do not grieve".

From Adi Sankaracharya's commentary;

"...Seek Me as thy sole Refuge: in the belief "I myself am that Iswara; "i e, do thou understand that there is naught else except Me. When thou art firm in this faith, I shall liberate thee from all sins, from all bonds of dharma and a-dharma, by manifesting Myself as thy own Self..."

I more or less took Atanu's explanation simply as the son seeing the mother as his sole refuge (when he came to his senses), that her needs (in feeding him) were the same as his (in getting fed). "One with mother", I would call it, but that is up to Atanu.

Or say you are tired travelling many hours, days on the road. Your only refuge is a hotel. The goal is to become one with the hotel. Yajvan says, "gati is also defined as happiness - running to happiness". If you google refuge - definition, the first thing that comes up is safety: a safe place; "He ran to safety".

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu,


Namaste Yajvanji

As far as I know, it is saranagati, which is best approximated by the english 'taking refuge' --- and in this case, 'unconditional refuge'.

Om Namah Shivaya

Yes, I can see how this applies. If we look at 'gati' another definition is in fact refuge . And saraṇa =running, going, it is also locomotion. Hence moving to one's refuge is a nice fit. I cannot 'see' unconditional as an equivalent to saraṇa, yet it makes sense.

Hence there is a wealth of dimensions with this saraṇagati. As I see it, home and refuge apply nicely here.

praṇām

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ
namasté atanu,
Yes, I can see how this applies. If we look at 'gati' another definition is in fact refuge . And saraṇa =running, going, it is also locomotion. Hence moving to one's refuge is a nice fit. I cannot 'see' unconditional as an equivalent to saraṇa, yet it makes sense.

Hence there is a wealth of dimensions with this saraṇagati. As I see it, home and refuge apply nicely here.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvanji

Thank you for crystallizing the meaning, so that the whole meaning is visible as an apple on one's palm.

The actual sanskrit word (and also in bengali) should be sharaNAgati, which means surrender, approach for protection. sharana means refuge or home. So moving towards the refuge, abode, home is fine.

I add, as already explained by my friends here, for advaitins, the refuge is true home where from the 'I' emerged, the Heart, the Hridaya, the immutable ocean which is the stable for the asva called mahat, the highest abode of Vishnu also called the Self, and not any other imaginary place made tangible by sensual apparatus.

Thank you and Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste Kumar Das,

We can look at Gita Bhasya 18:66;

"Abandoning all righteous deeds, seek Me as thy sole Refuge, -------".

From Adi Sankaracharya's commentary;

"...Seek Me as thy sole Refuge: ----

I more or less took Atanu's explanation simply as the son seeing the mother as his sole refuge (when he came to his senses), that her needs (in feeding him) were the same as his (in getting fed). "One with mother", I would call it, but that is up to Atanu.




Pranam Rasa

Thank you and Regards.

To add a little bit of more depth. Ekanta and myself had once discussed the verse of Gita where Shri Krishna teaches of demonic practices by which some torture the body and Him, resident in all elements and as the Seer. So, it is not that the Supreme God is beyond pain. That was hinted when I said that if I went hungry, mother would also be pained.This understanding, IMO, would dawn with Advaita jnana and probably will require no conscious cultivation with ripening of the jnana. (I have been taught of the final scenario and obtained fleeting touches but I do not know it in a settled way.:) )

Om

[atanu]

Friends and especially to Yajvanji

Language is terribly sweet and glamorous; a lady of very variable mood just as clouds in a mountain area.

In Hindi, we may say "Mera kuch gati kar do" meaning "Do something to solve my problematic situation" or "Kill my problem" or similar. Or I may say to another "Uska gati kar do", which may also mean "Kill that fellow".

Saying to a fellow "Uska gati karo' and handing him a wad of notes is called Supari, which in english means hiring for contract killing.

:)