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Believer
06 September 2010, 12:57 PM
Sometimes, I wish I had never found this forum. What I have learned in this section of the forum, is at a personal level, rather painful. Whereas I always had a healthy respect for Sikhism and considered it a unique religion, separate from Hinduism; I learned that in its current state Sikhism is dominated by the Tat Khalsa sect who believe that:

- Sikhism was born in a vacuum, with no Hindu influence on it.
- In Gurbani, Ram is not the Hindu God Ram, but the reference is to the creator who is ‘ramma hua’ (present in) every speck of the universe. Gopal is not Lord Krishna. It is not go-pal (protector of cows), but jag-pal - God, the protector of everything. Similarly, all other Hindu gods in Gurbani are different names for the creator and have nothing to do with the ‘gods’ that Hindus worship.
- Somewhere in every copy of Guru Granth Sahib, there is a jyot - God consciousness – sitting in there, but all Hindu scriptures are fiction and Hindu deities and images are just idols.
- Tat Khalsa Sikhs are the real sikhs. All other sects of Sikhism are evil and need to be ultimately gotten rid of by eliminating their gurus/leaders.

Most overseas Tat Khalsa Sikhs subscribe to this official line, but in my beloved Punjab, most Sikhs and Hindus have not been influenced by this 'reformed' philosophy, and respect each other’s faith, and life goes on as before. Hope some day the tide will turn and ALL Sikhs will become aware of and acknowledge their original roots.

Kumar_Das
06 September 2010, 01:02 PM
For Hindus outside of Punjab, Sikhism is a foreign religion that is not of any importance whatsoever. So Hindus dont really care for Sikhism. And I reckon the typical Hindu is more informed about Islam than he is of Sikhism.

Regards,

Sahasranama
06 September 2010, 01:07 PM
They believe whatever they want. Sikhism is draws from both Hinduism and Islam. So it's not siprising they have some anti Hindu ideas.

Kumar_Das
06 September 2010, 01:10 PM
They believe whatever they want. Sikhism is draws from both Hinduism and Islam. So it's not siprising they have some anti Hindu ideas.

Ironically for these so-called 'Dharmic' religions; Sikhism and Buddhism it has always been a norm to freely bash Hinduism in order to boost themselves.:rolleyes:

Sahasranama
06 September 2010, 02:06 PM
oh c.rap

satay
06 September 2010, 10:24 PM
namaste,


For Hindus outside of Punjab, Sikhism is a foreign religion that is not of any importance whatsoever. So Hindus dont really care for Sikhism. And I reckon the typical Hindu is more informed about Islam than he is of Sikhism.

Regards,

This has been my experience too that non-punjabi hindus don't know and don't care about sikhism.

darshansingh
06 September 2010, 10:26 PM
- Sikhism was born in a vacuum, with no Hindu influence on it.
- In Gurbani, Ram is not the Hindu God Ram, but the reference is to the creator who is ‘ramma hua’ (present in) every speck of the universe. Gopal is not Lord Krishna. It is not go-pal (protector of cows), but jag-pal - God, the protector of everything. Similarly, all other Hindu gods in Gurbani are different names for the creator and have nothing to do with the ‘gods’ that Hindus worship.
- Somewhere in every copy of Guru Granth Sahib, there is a jyot - God consciousness – sitting in there, but all Hindu scriptures are fiction and Hindu deities and images are just idols.
- Tat Khalsa Sikhs are the real sikhs. All other sects of Sikhism are evil and need to be ultimately gotten rid of by eliminating their gurus/leaders.


I am not sure, how you would label me. I am a sikh without the labels. My guru is Guru Granth Sahib.

1. I, and most most sikhs, don't believe your first statement. Guru Granth Sahib has bani of 14 bhagats and many poets, out of which 11 were born hindus. Some of these bhagats were at sometime vaishnav like Ramanandji.
Many hindu figures such as Janak, Vidur, Prahalad, Dhruv are highly revered. Krishna-Sudama story and many such stories are refered to. So, there is significant hindu influence. The significant difference is that "good deeds" are considered helpful in the next world; not just the rituals. Thus Tirath, Vrat, Daan are not considered to help one in God's court - only good deeds are. The current day's hindu would have the same opinion. But not 15th century hindu.

2. Gurbani says "There is one God, formless....". So how can same gurbani call Krishna and Rama or for that matter Nanak as God. However, Gurbani says "Har Harjan Dui Ek hai". God and Godly people are same. This subtlely is cause of debate, which actually makes no sense.
A sikh will worship just one formless god, under the guidance of Guru Granth Sahib. He won't worship the Godly people; but would revere and respect them.
The formless God has to refered to by some name, so names such as Rama, Gopal, Madho, Bitthal are used. It would be a waste of time to go to etymology of those words; rather than just believe that they refer to the ONE GOD.

3. To consider one's scriptures great doesn't mean we put others' scriptures down. e.g. When we sing "Sare Jahaan se Achha ...", it doesn't mean that rest of the world is not "Achha"

4. These labels have no meaning. A sikh is one:
a. who believes in One God
b. who believes Guru Granth Sahib as Guru and in no living guru
c. who believes Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh as gurus
d. who believes in Amrit Ceremony started by Guru Gobind Singh
e. who believes in three principles Naam Japna, Keerat Karni and Wand Chhakna - meditation, hard work and sharing the fruits of the labor.

Some sects are not sikh as they don't follow sikhism as defined by Guru Gobind Singh. Where is the confusion ?
Sikhism is pretty well-defined, so its very easy to figure out who is a sikh and who is not.

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 12:29 AM
Sahasranama writes:


"They believe whatever they want. Sikhism is draws from both Hinduism and Islam. So it's not siprising they have some anti Hindu ideas."

No, Sikhism is only the religion of the chelas of the Sikh lineage of Guru Sahibaan. The Guru Mat is based on Vedas, Puranas and Shastras. All of it. There is NO Islamic ideology and teaching there. Every single Bhagat in Guru Granth Sahib was a Vaishnav, as were all the Bhatts. The only exception is Baba Farid and his bani is very minimal, and none of it is promoting Muslim Mat. Mohammed is never mentioned by name in the Guru Granth Sahib. Koran is never elevated.


ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee ||
O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoon khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning.

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
sakath sanaehu kar sunnath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee ||
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2||
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself.

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
sunnath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai ||
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu.

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree ||
Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8||
Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed.
~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 477


This is derived from Islam? How? Where in the many concepts of Karma, Dharma, nirguna/sarguna, Yugas, devatay, avtaray, mantras, Nama japna, meditation, turiya, Guru-chela, yoga, is the Islamic concept exactly?

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 12:49 AM
Darshansingh writes:

2. Gurbani says "There is one God, formless....". So how can same gurbani call Krishna and Rama or for that matter Nanak as God. However, Gurbani says "Har Harjan Dui Ek hai". God and Godly people are same. This subtlely is cause of debate, which actually makes no sense.
A sikh will worship just one formless god, under the guidance of Guru Granth Sahib. He won't worship the Godly people; but would revere and respect them.
The formless God has to refered to by some name, so names such as Rama, Gopal, Madho, Bitthal are used. It would be a waste of time to go to etymology of those words; rather than just believe that they refer to the ONE GOD.


Well it does, why do you deny the clear Gurbani? Do you really believe the Sikh sampraday which trained Sanskrit and Shastric scholars did so, with blessing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji JUST so illiterates can oversimplify and refuse to study the very origins of the NAAMs they call the Divine and jap as the boat of mukti?


ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
~SGGS Ji ang 1390

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 12:54 AM
4. These labels have no meaning. A sikh is one:
a. who believes in One God
b. who believes Guru Granth Sahib as Guru and in no living guru
c. who believes Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh as gurus
d. who believes in Amrit Ceremony started by Guru Gobind Singh
e. who believes in three principles Naam Japna, Keerat Karni and Wand Chhakna - meditation, hard work and sharing the fruits of the labor.

Some sects are not sikh as they don't follow sikhism as defined by Guru Gobind Singh. Where is the confusion ?
Sikhism is pretty well-defined, so its very easy to figure out who is a sikh and who is not.

This definition you have given of a Sikh does not come from any source attributable to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. it is directly from the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha SGPC Sikh Rehit Maryada compiled and published for the first time in the world in 1945.

Sikhism is only well-defined because of the Singh Sabha takeover and deliberate re-definition marginalizing all the traditional sanatan Sikh sampraday. THAT my dear is the origin of the conflict. There is no confusion. The Sikhism of the Singh Sabha is NOT the Sikhism of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. And it is a clear breach from history. And it's sole authority rests on bullying and suppressing the sanatan heritage.

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 01:04 AM
"who believes in One God"

Really? This One Supreme nirgun God manages quite well to work through many agencies in sarguna. In a strictly monotheistic philosophy how do you account for devatay such as Brahma and Maya? I'm curious to know. Guru Sahib writes about devatay and avtaray, yet, you claim Sikh is not supposed to believe in them, but believe only in ONE GOD like some Abrahamic creed. So why are they even in Gurbani if they are fake and do not exist or are in competition with the Singh Sabha invention of ONE MONOTHEISTIC GOD? Because this is a fundamentally flawed perspective achieved only by devaluing the clear concept of Nirguna which is Eka Parabrahmha who creates through Shabda Brahmha the mantras which create the pakriti and also devatay and avtaray. So clearly in this Gurbani teaching devatay and avtaray have roles to fulfill and are material manifestations and aspects of the One Divine.


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
nirankaar aakaar oupaaeiaa ||
The Formless Lord created the universe of form.

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥
maaeiaa mohu hukam banaaeiaa ||
By the Hukam of His Command, He created attachment to Maya.

ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲ ਕਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥
aapae khael karae sabh karathaa sun saachaa mann vasaaeidhaa ||1||
The Creator Himself stages all the plays; hearing of the True Lord, enshrine Him in your mind. ||1||

ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਸੂਤਿ ਜਮਾਇਆ ॥
maaeiaa maaee thrai gun parasooth jamaaeiaa ||
Maya, the mother, gave birth to the three gunas, the three qualities,

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨੋ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ॥
chaarae baedh brehamae no furamaaeiaa ||
and proclaimed the four Vedas to Brahma.

ਵਰ੍ਹੇ ਮਾਹ ਵਾਰ ਥਿਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥
varhae maah vaar thhithee kar eis jag mehi sojhee paaeidhaa ||2||
Creating the years, months, days and dates, He infused intelligence into the world.
~SGGS Ji ang 1066
------------------

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||
The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||
The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji ang 1270

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 01:15 AM
Kumar Das writes:

"Ironically for these so-called 'Dharmic' religions; Sikhism and Buddhism it has always been a norm to freely bash Hinduism in order to boost themselves."

I've really had it with you. There are POLITICAL and HISTORICAL divisions to take into consideration that are not based on the philosophical disagreements. The biggest cause of moderate Sikhs turning against loyalty to India and toward extremist preachers had first to do with MK Gandhi's pathetic appeasement of Jinnah's aggressive jihadi Muslim League and the utter trauma of Partition as a basic slaughter of Sikhs and theft of Sikh traditional homeland. And even after all this as many Sikhs were loyal and still had Gandhi's pictures garlanded on their walls, mobs in riot ran through their houses burning, looting, raping and setting on fire.

Sir, let me tell you, after trauma such as anti-Sikh riots under Rajiv Gandhi, a WHOLE can of worms opened up. And you cannot in fairness to truth or conscience IGNORE the responsibility Congress Party and even Indian Nation has had to play in negligently and brutally alienating Sikh community.

And despite all that, there are still proud Sikh Indian Nationalist heroes and soldiers and officers serving, should give you pause for respectful contemplation how beautiful and loyal is this wonderful religion called Sikh-ism. And how every Indian and every Hindu should fight to keep Sikh religion a respected and honored part of Sanatana Dharm and stop trying to alienate it further to the disgrace of all.

Anti-Sikh riots, New Delhi 1984.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/thumb/e/e3/Delhi14.jpg/300px-Delhi14.jpg

http://sikhsangat.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/1984_riots_222.jpg

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~arandhaw/classweb/image/killed2.jpg


Watch this film before you speak another word against Sikhism on this forum.


Amu part 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQbeGEE-pE&feature=related)

If your goal is to heal these wounds, you're going to have to do better. In fact, we should all do better. If we have no respect for ourselves whose heritage is Sanatana Dharm how can we expect anyone else in the world to respect us? We've been nefariously pitched as enemies against each other for far too long.

Believer
08 September 2010, 01:23 AM
There are only two things that make me scream. The first one is the Aryan invasion theory and the second is the line about Sikhism drawing on both Hinduism and Islam.

How many times does it have to be repeated that both are false. One of the two items pops up every so often. I am at my wits end to emphasize that they are both wrong and should be purged from your lovely Hindu heads. Sometimes I feel like people do it on purpose to traumatize me. Nah! people here can't be that sadistic. So, please don't torture me any more by repeating these falsehoods. Both statements demean and degrade our culture/religion/sanskriti and indeed the whole fabric of what it means to be a Hindu.

>>> Getting off the soap box

darshansingh
09 September 2010, 09:20 AM
deleted

dogra
09 September 2010, 03:19 PM
Kumar Das writes:



Sir, let me tell you, after trauma such as anti-Sikh riots under Rajiv Gandhi, a WHOLE can of worms opened up. And you cannot in fairness to truth or conscience IGNORE the responsibility Congress Party and even Indian Nation has had to play in negligently and brutally alienating Sikh community.

And despite all that, there are still proud Sikh Indian Nationalist heroes and soldiers and officers serving, should give you pause for respectful contemplation how beautiful and loyal is this wonderful religion called Sikh-ism. And how every Indian and every Hindu should fight to keep Sikh religion a respected and honored part of Sanatana Dharm and stop trying to alienate it further to the disgrace of all.



Indeed, the butchers of the genocide 1984 need bringing to justice, it is an outrage that hardly any have not been, there are our fellow brother and sisters, likewise Gujurat as well, India has King Asokas wheel Asokas edicts were that of humanity.

atanu
09 September 2010, 07:48 PM
I am not sure, how you would label me. I am a sikh without the labels. My guru is Guru Granth Sahib.

1. I, and most most sikhs, don't believe your first statement. Guru Granth Sahib has bani of 14 bhagats and many poets, out of which 11 were born hindus. Some of these bhagats were at sometime vaishnav like Ramanandji.----

2. Gurbani says "There is one God, formless....".

3. To consider one's scriptures great doesn't mean we put others' scriptures down. e.g. When we sing "Sare Jahaan se Achha ...", it doesn't mean that rest of the world is not "Achha"



Namaste Singh Sahib

Thank you for a well reasoned nice informative post, and especially the part highlighted with blue. I think the tendency to put down others' scriptures/dharma/acts as inferior stems from ignorance/unbelief of one's own scripture.

How many act with full faith on scripture as below, which is the essence of all scripture.


Page 475. What sort of service is this, by which the fear of the Lord Master does not depart? O Nanak, he alone is called a servant, who merges with the Lord Master. || 2 || PAUREE: O Nanak, the Lord's limits cannot be known; He has no end or limitation. He Himself creates, and then He Himself destroys. Some have chains around their necks, while some ride on many horses. He Himself acts, and He Himself causes us to act. Unto whom should I complain? O Nanak, the One who created the creation - He Himself takes care of it. || 23 ||
..............

Vedanta also teaches that Lord Master Himself is also the divine Man called the World. Then why the fear of the Lord master?

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya