PDA

View Full Version : Everyone should know the truth about aggressive Islam!~



Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 05:41 PM
To all liberals who prefer the polite, politically correct fantasies, let reality shatter your illusions. Please forward this video as a warning to every family you know!~


A Mother's Warning To Sikh Girls (Emotional Video of a True Story) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04-OmLb2gTU&feature=related)

Riverwolf
08 September 2010, 07:10 PM
Emotional + political/religious agenda = political/religious propaganda = does not contain full truth, but partial truth (sometimes coupled with outright lies) designed to advertise a particular viewpoint and encourage anger and hate = not worth my time.

Sahasranama
08 September 2010, 07:19 PM
Muslims date other races on purpose in order to produce muslim children. That's one way of how islam is spreading. This has been going for ages, but people seem to close their eyes for it.


Emotional + political/religious agenda = political/religious propaganda = does not contain full truth, but partial truth (sometimes coupled with outright lies) designed to advertise a particular viewpoint and encourage anger and hate = not worth my time.

What if your daughter was raped, would you not listen to her, because she sounds too emotional?

Harjas Kaur
08 September 2010, 08:58 PM
"designed to advertise a particular viewpoint and encourage anger and hate = not worth my time."



Literal "Love Jihad" going on duplicitous attacks to impregnate and coerce Islamic conversions by the thousands in many countries, India, Britian, UK.

And response is the "anger and hate" is from Sikh/Hindu side of the equation. Amazing logic. Yes, always the aggressive Muslim fanatic fundamentalist ideologies and criminals need to be coddled and excused more, so they can steal even more thousands of young women from their homes with deceptive campaign of deliberate attack.

Right, of course, go back to sleep. It's obviously not happening in your country or to anyone you know or love or give a damn about.

Love Jihad: Muslim Boys Trained to Trap Hindu Girls - Why Every Hindu Girl needs to Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQFqpmIrhQ)

Love Jihad's baby machines (http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/oct/301009-Islamic-body-Love-Jihad-Hindu-Christian.htm)

Riverwolf
09 September 2010, 02:03 AM
What if your daughter was raped, would you not listen to her, because she sounds too emotional?

Propaganda is designed to promote a political agenda. I don't think the screams of a girl being raped have any politics behind them, with the only agenda being the immediate cessation of the attacker, which makes perfect sense. Therefore I fail to see how your analogy has anything to do with my argument.

The point of propaganda is to provide only partial truths of an opposing viewpoint, present them as if they were the entire truth, appeal to the target audiences' emotions rather than their intellects, and thus win people over to your side while simultaneously encouraging hate for the opposing side. If anyone disagrees with the propaganda, you make them feel as guilty as possible. The documentaries of Michael Moore are like this, and Fox News practices it all the time.

This is different from a thesis, which (ideally) presents a logically, well-researched argument supported with several facts, appealing to intellect. If an opposing argument is even brought up, it would be presented with logical refutations. (Your above "refutation," presented in the form of a question, did not follow from my argument, as I demonstrated... though in your defense, I probably should have been clearer as to what I was talking about.) There is no guilt-tripping, no appeals to pity, no encouragement of hate, because there's no need for it. The intellect is greater than emotions, because it allows us to discern the truth, while emotions tend to be gullible and rash.

Let me make this perfectly clear, so we're not in misunderstanding: I am against the kind of acts that are being described right now, and I have NO REASON to doubt that they do happen by the thousands. That's terrible. Let there be no doubt that I am against this practice wholeheartedly. Let there be no doubt that I believe rape to be the worst kind of physical violence one person can commit upon another.

That does not mean that I say it should be used as a representation of Islam as a whole. If we were to take this incident (among others) as examples of how Islam really is, then we should apply the same standard to our own religion, in which hundreds if not thousands of village practitioners abort unborn females. I don't think there's a single member on this forum that agrees with this practice, and yet I imagine it's used in anti-Hindu propaganda. It is my firm belief that if we judge others by a certain standard, then by that standard we should likewise judge ourselves.

If you want to reach me, appeal to my intellect, not my emotions. All through my life, propaganda and commercials have ruled me, luring me to buy products and think a certain way with their siren songs, and frankly, I'm sick of it. The songs no longer sound beautiful, but wretched. Give me well reasoned and researched arguments (that also means citations so I can check the sources), and then I'll listen. Guilt-tripping and trying to excite negative emotions just pushes me further away.

Riverwolf
09 September 2010, 02:04 AM
Yes, always the aggressive Muslim fanatic fundamentalist ideologies and criminals need to be coddled and excused more, so they can steal even more thousands of young women from their homes with deceptive campaign of deliberate attack.


Your words, not mine.

Harjas Kaur
09 September 2010, 02:52 AM
The point of propaganda is to provide only partial truths of an opposing viewpoint,

On what basis do you accuse the video of being propaganda? Do you realize there have been THOUSANDS of these cases? They are well published. Here is this mother giving an interview, and you call it "propaganda?"

Why is that? Why do you rush to discredit the testimony of this mother? Is it because you don't believe aggressive Islam does these kinds of things? So because it's not within the realm of "your" experience, and/or unpalatable, therefore it "must" be untrue and deliberately propagandistic to discredit aggressive Muslim missionary tactics?


Tell me, because such has been going on at least since Partition, and certainly before that from time of Mughals. It's certainly not new to Sikh community.

Here are YOUR words directly:


Emotional + political/religious agenda = political/religious propaganda = does not contain full truth, but partial truth (sometimes coupled with outright lies) designed to advertise a particular viewpoint and encourage anger and hate = not worth my time.

Now, why are the rapists not considered as encouraging anger and hate and only the people who speak against these deplorable fanatic religious tactics?

WHY do you presume everyone is LYING?

Harjas Kaur
09 September 2010, 02:58 AM
Now, you say:


Let me make this perfectly clear, so we're not in misunderstanding: I am against the kind of acts that are being described right now, and I have NO REASON to doubt that they do happen by the thousands. That's terrible. Let there be no doubt that I am against this practice wholeheartedly. Let there be no doubt that I believe rape to be the worst kind of physical violence one person can commit upon another.

That does not mean that I say it should be used as a representation of Islam as a whole.

But you DID call it partial truths, deliberate propagandistic distortions and lies didn't you?


So if you want to change your position, that's fine. At least you should give the video the benefit of the doubt before accusing it of lies and emotional propaganda. So now to the next issue:


That does not mean that I say it should be used as a representation of Islam as a whole.

But only Muslims are doing it. Can it be overlooked?

Harjas Kaur
09 September 2010, 03:45 AM
"That does not mean that I say it should be used as a representation of Islam as a whole. If we were to take this incident (among others) as examples of how Islam really is, then we should apply the same standard to our own religion, in which hundreds if not thousands of village practitioners abort unborn females. I don't think there's a single member on this forum that agrees with this practice, and yet I imagine it's used in anti-Hindu propaganda."

Sanatan Dharma doesn't advocate infanticide or abortion dear. When people do that it's a cultural not a religious thing, so how can it be anti-Hindu propaganda?

And just suppose for a moment there were shastras that advocated abortion...how does this absolve rapists? See, this is our problem dear, Islam itself.


"A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses)." ~Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50)

"Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses." ~Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah) Book 11, Number 2150


"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing." ~Tabari IX:113

"And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands). ~Qur'an (5:6)


"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)" ~Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 24: AL-NOOR (THE LIGHT)


"Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell)." ~Bukhari (2:28)


"The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." ~Tabari VIII:117

What does the
Religion of Peace Teach About... (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/010-women-worth-less.htm)

Harjas Kaur
09 September 2010, 03:46 AM
""Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves." From Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon'." ~Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754



"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned." ~Excerpt Qur'an 5:033, Set 21, Count 54


"...you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare with "whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out" (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death]..." ~Excerpt Qur'an 5:082, Set 23, Count 56


"...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." ~Excerpt Qur'an 8:012, Set 28, Count 62


"...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush..." ~Excerpt Qur'an 9:005, Set 33, Count 91


"[9.12] ...fight the leaders of unbelief...[9.13] What! will you not fight a people...[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people." ~Excerpt Qur'an 9:012-014, Set 34, Count 92-94


"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." ~Excerpt Qur'an 9:029, Set 38, Count 101


"O Prophet! strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." ~Qur'an 9:073, Set 44, Count 108




If you want to reach me, appeal to my intellect, not my emotions. All through my life, propaganda and commercials have ruled me, luring me to buy products and think a certain way with their siren songs, and frankly, I'm sick of it.... Guilt-tripping and trying to excite negative emotions just pushes me further away.
You know something, I posted that video as a warning to Sikh families because there is a real danger to them. I could care less about appealing to you in a way that you see fit. This forum is not about YOU dear, there's a lot of people who might need this message. Thanks.

sankar
09 September 2010, 11:37 PM
Emotional + political/religious agenda = political/religious propaganda = does not contain full truth, but partial truth (sometimes coupled with outright lies) designed to advertise a particular viewpoint and encourage anger and hate = not worth my time.

being ignorant of many such incidents, making remarks on these really hurts. May be these are practiced after misinterpreting the islam, but they are very common these days.

Muslims targeting non-muslim girls is not something new. Love-Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Jihad)

more than 1000 such cases are reported in less than 1 year. When one succeeds in converting a girl, he would receive funds from gulf nations. Even communist chief minister of Kerala approved this truth, and it is the christian people who are more cautious of 'love jihad'. Some churches even published books how to save girls from love jihadis.

regards..

Riverwolf
11 September 2010, 02:59 PM
Some churches even published books how to save girls from love jihadis.

regards..

WONDERFUL!

I hope those books include ways girls can physically defend themselves if necessary.

...are self-defense classes for women available in those parts of the world? 'Cause it sounds like it needs them desperately.

amra
12 September 2010, 07:29 AM
Finally the real whole truth about Islam has been revealed. I used to think muslims were alright but now I hate them and wish they were all dead. Thanks to these forums my perverse tolerance of the evil muslim faith has been thankfully uprooted from my presence and converted into a wholesome hate for all muslims, O thank you Dharma forums for this great blessing!

Odion
12 September 2010, 08:00 AM
Muslims date other races on purpose in order to produce muslim children.
:( Sadly, this has become surprisingly common within my area. How one can date someone to make children of that religion is horrible.

My wife has encountered six (White) women in a small district (about 2 km from side to side) of our area alone where the women are all single mums who were converted under pressure to Islam and had children, then their partners left them. Five of them converted to Christianity (along with turning their kids Christian) when their partner left, the other has become an atheist.

In the main city centre there's more hassle, and there is a lot of aggressive "flirting" from a small group of Muslim men in the city centre, too--when about, the main targets are Hindu and Sikh girls, otherwise it's the white girls. I'd rather not say some of the things that are said, because they make my blood boil.

To be honest, I blame the imam of one of the mosques in the area. I've met him; and he is a real nasty piece of work. A lot of the nicer Muslims don't go to that mosque. I just wish that the nicer Muslims would sort out that imam and stop him spewing his radical message to dozens of gullible young Muslims.

:-/

amra
12 September 2010, 08:30 AM
I blame God because God does everything.

To blame human agency you must be a Kaffir a true unbeliever, because this iman is only doing what God is making him do. God knows best.

BUt on the other hand We should only like muslims if we wish to go against God because God makes us dislike muslims. Why fight nature? a lion is made to kill weaker animals for food, and we are made that if someone punches us we wish to punch them back twice as hard, why go against inherent nature, if someone hates us we should hate them back, twice as much. God's ways are mysterious he makes you do something and then punishes you for doing it

karakara2
12 September 2010, 08:56 AM
In Panjab Muslims and Sikhs live in Harmony and brotherhood , Sheikh Farid ji , Sai Mian Mir ,Peer Budhhu Shah ji ,Waris Shah , Baba Bulley shah ,Shah Hussian ji are much respected and loved by Sikhs .

Gurbani never says to Judge other on the basis of Religion .

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥
Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but treat all the human beings as one and the same Guru Gobind Singh Ji




http://www.sikhchic.com/history/cms/articles/photo1/mosque-b.jpg

Posted Online on Monday, 14 June 2010 00:05 IST
Sikhs rebuild mosque demolished in 1947
By Zafarul-Islam Khan

The Milli Gazette

In a historic gesture, Sikhs of Punjab have rebuilt a mosque demolished during the Partition riots of 1947 and handed it over to the Muslims of the area. The mosque is situated in village Sarwarpur which is situated at a distance of ten kilometers from Samrala town in Punjab. A function was held in the village on 22 May in which executive member of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee Jathedar Kirpal Singh Khernian, area MLA Jagjivan Singh and the Sikh community of the area took part. The Shahi Imam of Punjab Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani Ludhianwi was invited as a special guest. At the request of the representatives of the area, the Shahi Imam presented the keys of the mosque to Dada Muhammad Tufail, the eldest Muslim in the village.

http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2010/20100614_001_Sikhs_rebuild_mosque_demolished_in_1947.htm


Around 200 mosques across Punjab have been repaired, rebuilt or built from scratch in the last 10 years
Many destroyed during Partition riots are now being restored by village communities
In some cases, the Jamaat-e-Islami is involved, but most are unorganised village-level efforts
It's a reassertion, after decades, of Punjab's unique religious and cultural synthesis
http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/cms/articles/photo1/shades-aa.gif
http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/cms/articles/photo1/shades-a.gifhttp://www.sikhchic.com/partition/cms/articles/photo1/shades-b.gif

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/punjabiyat_is_alive_and_well_in_sikhdom




There are many ppls who gave bad name to Islam but Persons like Khurshid Khan are also present .
Every day when he completes his work as a legal expert, Khan visits a Sikh gurdwara in the center of the city, wraps a piece of cloth around his head to cover it and thus show his respect, and sits in the doorway to shine the shoes of Sikhs, whose community has come under frequent attack by Taliban militants over the last few years.

http://www.sikhchic.com/our_best_friends/cms/articles/photo1/Peshawar-a.jpg

http://www.sikhchic.com/our_best_friends/the_noble_servant_of_peshawar



There is no place of phobia , Hate in Sikhi .



Nanak Naam Chardi Kala ,tere Bhaney Sarbat da Bhalla

sankar
12 September 2010, 10:07 AM
WONDERFUL!

I hope those books include ways girls can physically defend themselves if necessary.

...are self-defense classes for women available in those parts of the world? 'Cause it sounds like it needs them desperately.

i cannot understand the use of self defense if their partners leave them. As the term 'love jihad' indicates, here love is used as an arm, and we all know love has power conquer almost everything. These musims groups has lists containing biodatas of non-muslim girls, and gives coaching how to trap them.

Onkara
12 September 2010, 10:40 AM
Deleted - Sorry.

kallol
12 September 2010, 12:29 PM
As far as I know the similar incidents are in practices in Kerala and at one time even High Court ordered an investigation.

The tradition of Islam in India from the day they came has been this. So there may be some truth in it.

Recently the Christian mission and the Hindu mission saved 300 girls from their clutches in Kerala.

So I would not brush it off but be aware of these incidents to understand the big plans.

Love and best wishes

Harjas Kaur
12 September 2010, 09:49 PM
"Finally the real whole truth about Islam has been revealed. I used to think muslims were alright but now I hate them and wish they were all dead. Thanks to these forums my perverse tolerance of the evil muslim faith has been thankfully uprooted ."

Amra your attempted sarcasm fails. The thread is about aggressive Islam, and whether you like the bitter truth of it or not, there is a serious problem worldwide with it. You can blame all the hate and violence on everyone else, but that too fails miserably. Why? Because militant and aggressive Islam goes around hacking off people's arms and noses, raping young girls, deceitfully compelling conversions and promoting terrorism against unbelievers.

If you can disprove that reality, many would be happy to listen. Otherwise, you're simply praising the wrong thing and blaming the sensible warnings against it. If you want to "exonerate" a more "moderate" kind of Islam, instead of attacking people like me, why don't you condemn the vicious hate preachers who instigate violent and hateful acts against non-Muslims and stop acting in collusion to justify their message.


Dr Zakir Naik - Who is responsible for Mumbai 26/11 terror attack? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReVT0QTzTzc)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/BrokenMurtiattheKalitemple.jpg
Vandalized, broken and desecrated Kali Murthi in Kali Temple, Deganga Riots in West Bengal, September 2010.


"When the Hindus objected to the digging they were attacked. The latter informed the neighbouring police station, and when the police tried to stop the miscreants, they were beaten up. Officer-in-Charge Arup Ghosh suffered head injuries and fracture in the arm. The miscreants threatened to teach the Hindus a lesson after the evening iftar. Monday evening In the evening at around 8-30PM , a 2,000 strong Islamist mob descended upon the market areas of Deganga, Kartikpur and Beliaghata and resorted to large scale arson and violence. Hindu shops were systematically looted, burnt and destroyed. Nearby Hindu residences were set ablaze. Hindu temples were desecrated and the idols were vandalized. A Shani temple at Kartikpur and a Kali temple at Deganga Biplabi Colony has been desecrated and vandalized by the Islamist mob.

Violence continues on Tuesday

On Tuesday morning, local Muslim ruffains Maqbur Rahman and Mintu Sahji led the Muslim mobs. In the meanwhile, a group of Muslims led by Haji Nurul Islam staged a demonstration at the Deganga police station to keep the police busy. Later on the day the police clamped prohibitory orders under section 144 of CrPC. The district police, RAF, CRPF and BSF all of them failed to stop the Islamist mob frenzy in Deganga. When the situation went out of control the state government deployed the army..."

Aftermath

Sporadic incidents continued as late as on Thursday, despite army presence. The situation calmed down on Friday though tension prevails in the entire area. Hindus, especially women who had fled the homes in fear of dishonor have still not returned to their homes. The BJP on Friday, demanded the arrest of TMC MP Haji Nurul Islam, the main culprit behind the riot, for instigating the mob into a communal frenzy.
2010 Deganga riots (http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6740130-2010-deganga-riots)


"Muvattupuzha, (Kerala): A college professor, currently on bail for preparing a inflammatory question paper, had his right palm chopped off by a group of eight unidentified people on Sunday morning, police said. T J Joseph was returning home with his family after attending morning prayers when a group of people in a van pulled him out of his car. Joseph's right palm was chopped off and thrown some 200 meters away, police said. He also suffered deep cuts on the body and was rushed to a specialty hospital at Kochi for a surgery to reattach the severed palm. Joseph is on bail after being arrested by the police in April for preparing a question paper with alleged inflammatory references to Prophet Mohammed for an exam in a private college. Joseph, a Malayalam teacher, was suspended by Thodupuzha New Man College after angry protest marches by various Muslim organisations."
Controversial question paper: Prof's hand cut off (http://sify.com/news/controversial-question-paper-prof-s-hand-cut-off-news-crime-khepkmdcgfe.html)

Harjas Kaur
12 September 2010, 09:56 PM
Why is it that Hindu's are always blamed for stirring hate and anger and communalism simply to protest egregious activities, but the perpetrators and promoters of such egregious activities are defended as blameless by secular detractors?

How insane can this world get?

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 04:30 AM
Riverwolf writes:

"WONDERFUL!

I hope those books include ways girls can physically defend themselves if necessary.

...are self-defense classes for women available in those parts of the world? 'Cause it sounds like it needs them desperately."

Yes, there is a whole movement of National self-protection working very hard to combat it. As you can see there is a desperate need and we have to unite and do more, the situation is intolerable. More than just books are needed. True kshatriya dharm has to take root and become a powerful protective force.

ONLY HINDU ZIONISM AND HINDU NATIONALISTS CAN SAVE INDIA FROM ISLAMIC AGGESSION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTaVHmW2WfI&feature=player_embedded#!)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/3643350672_4f4927ae5c_z.jpg
Rashtra Sevika Samiti of Sangh Parivar
"If Hindu men don't come forward to protect them, their women will protect themselves!!"
------------
धर्म एव हतो हन्ति धर्मो रक्षति रक्षितः।
dharma eva hato hanti dharmo rakṣati rakṣitaḥ|
Dharma when being violated will destroy violators,
and it protects those who protect it.
~Manavadharmaśāstra VIII.15.
------------------------------

ਜੈ ਜੈ ਹੋਸੀ ਮਹਿਖਾਸੁਰ ਮਰਦਨ ਪਾਪ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਧਰਮ ਕਰੇ ॥੫॥੨੧੫॥
Jai jai hosoo Mahikhaasur mardan paap binaasan dharam dare||5||215||
Hail, hail, O Slayer of Mahishasura, the destroyer of sin and originator of Dharma.

ਆਘ ਓਘ ਨਿਵਾਰਣਿ ਦੁਸਟ ਪ੍ਰਜਾਰਣਿ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣਿ ਸੁੱਧ ਮਤੇ ॥
Agh ogh nivaaran(i) dust prajaaran(i) sristtee ubaaran(i) suddh mate||
Thou art the effacer of all the sins, the burner of the tyrants, Protector of the world
and possessor of the world and possessor of pure intellect.
~Shri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 80

PARAM
13 September 2010, 10:43 AM


Why is it that Hindu's are always blamed for stirring hate and anger and communalism simply to protest egregious activities, but the perpetrators and promoters of such egregious activities are defended as blameless by secular detractors?

How insane can this world get?

Don't you remember a great quotation, I forget the person's name, don't worry the quotation was like this-

"When a dog bites a man this is not news, when a man bites the dog this is news"

If Hindus rise up from caste divide than nobody can defeate them, but thats why politicians never wants this

Believer
13 September 2010, 11:35 AM
Amra your attempted sarcasm fails. The thread is about aggressive Islam, and whether you like the bitter truth of it or not, there is a serious problem worldwide with it. You can blame all the hate and violence on everyone else, but that too fails miserably. Why? Because militant and aggressive Islam goes around hacking off people's arms and noses, raping young girls, deceitfully compelling conversions and promoting terrorism against unbelievers.

We have closet Muslims in the forum who would try to negate facts about the behavior of their community; and then we have the high and mighty elder statesmen of the Hindu forum, who meditate atop lofty mountains and come down to call a Hindu, Hitler, if he opens his mouth in support of Hinduism.

This Muslim-Sikh bhai-bhai in Punjab makes no sense when their daughters are being seduced by Muslims, with the active support and encouragement of mullahs, outside of Punjab. Punjabis lost more than half of Punjab at partition, and the rest will be gifted away as dowry when all their women get married to Muslims. At the rate at which they are renovating and building mosques, the mosques will soon outnumber the Mandirs and Gurudwaras combined.

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 02:46 PM
In Panjab Muslims and Sikhs live in Harmony and brotherhood , Sheikh Farid ji , Sai Mian Mir ,Peer Budhhu Shah ji ,Waris Shah , Baba Bulley shah ,Shah Hussian ji are much respected and loved by Sikhs .

Gurbani never says to Judge other on the basis of Religion .


ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥
Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but treat all the human beings as one and the same Guru Gobind Singh Ji

You didn't share the rest of the pauri Ji:


ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੱਦੂ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
Devtaa adev Jachchh gaddhrah Turak Hindoo, nidare nidare desan ke bhes ko prabhaao hai||
The gods, demons, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Turks and Hindus… all these are due to the differences of the various garbs of different countries.

ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ ਖਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਸ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
Ekai nain ekai kn ekai deh ekai baan, khaak baad aatas au aab ko ralaao hai||
The eyes are the same, the ears the same, the bodies are the same and the habits are the same, all the creation is the amalgam of earth, air, fire and water.

ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਔ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥
Alah abhekh sooo Puraan au Kuraan ooo, ek hoo daroop sabhai ek hoo banaao hai||16||86||
Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality; all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟ ਆਗ ਉਠੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥
Jaise ek aag te kanookaa kot aag uthe, nidare nidarehue kai pher(i) aag mai milaahenge||
Just as millions of sparks are created from the fire; although they are different entities, they merge in the same fire.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 51


The bani is talking about the souls of all the living beings and the Ultimate Reality of God as being one and the same, and hence is speaking from Turiya consciousness where even gods and demons are the same. And this is true reality. However, we exist in a world of duality, and not unity consciousness. And this is why the same Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji also waged war on same aggressive jihadi Muslims, to stop their oppression. Because it is not the correct path to collude with evil-doers and unite with them when they do not change their oppressive ways.

The whole main point of the pauri which you referenced can be found here, bottom of p. 51:



ਤੇਜ ਜਿਉ ਅਤੇਜ ਮੈ ਅਤੇਜ ਜੈਸੇ ਤੇਜ ਲੀਨ ਤਾਹੀ ਤੇ ਉਪਜ ਸਬੈ ਤਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥੧੮॥੮੮॥
Tej jio atej mai atej jaise tej loon, taahoo te upaj sahai taahoo mai samaahenge||18||88||
Just as the light merged in darkness and the darkness in the light all the created beings generated by the Lord will ultimately merge in Him.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 51


Nothing here suggests disarming yourself or pretending persecutors mean you no harm simply because they too, are living beings with a concept of God. Yes, same One Absolute Divine created and watches over all. And some beings are asuric and not godly. Simply to claim a set of beliefs as a religion shouldn't mean we all rush blindly to accept everything in their creed as being of Divine or True origin.

When aggressive and militant mullahs preach about killing kaffirs and polytheists and having God-given right to sexual plunder of captive women...
only an idiot would justify this as any kind of equality with DHARMA.



ਕਹੂੰ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਹਿੰਦੂਆ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਪਤ ਜਪਿਓ ਕਹੂੰ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
Kdhoondhue kai Hindooaa gaditroo ko gupt japio, kdhoondhue kai Turkaa pukdare baang det ho||
Somewhere Thou becomest a Hindu and repeatest Gayatri secretly: Somewhere becoming a Turk Thou callest Muslims to worship.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 37


It is part of Sruti that the God pervades His creation. But it is ignorance to deny the creation is divided into good and evil, right and wrong, dark and light, righteousness and unrighteousness. The duality is a part of this level of reality. And the Sikh Guru Sahibaan did in no way tell anyone to ignore aggressive Islam or tolerate the rape and abduction, the deceit and the torturous brutality of Muslim jihadi persecutions, but in fact mobilized a powerful Army AGAINST it and fought to the death to STOP the persecutions led by such radical and asuric ideologies.

And rather than stand with equality with militant Islam which DEMANDS conversion and rejects as evil every other religion, the Guru Sahibaan actually gained Muslim converts who were also tired and disagreed with the oppression, and so became Sikhs of the Guru and joined the struggle AGAINST Adharma.

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 02:53 PM
Cont.


ਜੁੱਧ ਭਯੋ ਇਹ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਤੁਰਕਨ ਕੋ ਮਾਰਿਓ ਸਿਰਦਾਰਾ ॥
Juddh bhayo eh bhaant(i) apaaraa|| Turkan ko maario sirdaaraa||
In this way, the great battle was fought, when the leader of the Turks (Muhammedans) was killed.

ਰਿਸ ਤਨ ਖਾਨ ਦਿਲਾਵਰ ਤਏ ॥ ਇਤੈ ਸਊਰ ਪਠਾਵਤ ਭਏ ॥੧॥
Ris tan Khaan Dilaavar tae|| Itai saoor pathaavat bhae||1||
On this Dilawar become very angry and sent a contingent of horsemen in this direction.

ਉਤੈ ਪਠਿਓ ਉਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੁਝਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਿਹ ਭਲਾਨ ਤੇ ਖੇਦ ਨਿਕਾਰਾ ॥
Utai pathio un Singh Jujhaaraa|| Tin Bhalaan te khed nikaaraa||
From the other side, Jujhar Singh was sent, who drove out the enemy from Bhallan immediately.

ਇਤਿ ਗਜ ਸਿੰਘ ਪੰਮਾ ਦਲ ਜੋਰਾ ॥ ਧਾਇ ਪਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਊਪਰ ਭੇਰਾ ॥੨॥
It(i) gad Singh Panmaa dal joraa|| Dhaae dare tin oopar bhoraa||2||
On this side Gaj Singh and Pamma (Parmanand) assembled their forces and fell upon them early in the morning.2.

ਉਤੈ ਜੁਝਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਭਯੋ ਆਡਾ ॥ ਜਿਮ ਰਨ ਖੰਭ ਭੂਮਿ ਰਨਿ ਗਾਡਾ ॥
Utai Jujhaar Singh bhayo aadaa|| Jim ran khanbh bhoom(i) ran(i) gaddaa||
On the other side Jujhar Singh stood firmly like a flagpost planted in the battlefield.

ਗਾਡਾ ਚਲੇ ਨ ਹਾਡਾ ਚਲਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਸਾਮੁਹਿ ਸੇਲ ਸਮਰ ਮੋ ਝਲਿ ਹੈ ॥੩॥
gaddaa chale na haadaa chal(i) hai|| Saamuh(i) sel samar mo jhal(i) hai||3||
Even the flagpost might be loosened, but the brave Rajput did not waver, he received the blows without flinching.3.

ਬਾਟ ਚੜ੍ਹੈ ਦਲ ਦੋਊ ਜੁਝਾਰਾ ॥ ਉਤੈ ਚੰਦੇਲ ਇਤੈ ਜਸਵਾਰਾ ॥
Baat chadhai dal dooo jujhaaraa|| Utai Channdel itai Jasvaaraa||
The warriors of both armies moved in detachments, Raja of Chandel on that side and Raja of Jaswar on this side.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 167



ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੋ ਬਧ ਭਯੋ ਜੁਝਾਰਾ ॥ ਆਨ ਬਸੇ ਤਬ ਧਾਮ ਲੁਜਾਰਾ ॥
Ih bidh(i) so badh bhayo Jujhaaraa|| aan Bade tab dhaam lujhaaraa||
In this way, when Jujhar Singh was killed, the soldiers returned their homes.

ਤਬ ਅਉਰੰਗ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਰਿਸਾਵਾ ॥ ਮੱਦ੍ਰ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਪਠਾਵਾ ॥੧॥
Tab Aurang man maah(i) risaavaa|| Maddra Des ko poot pathaavaa||1||
Then Aurangzeb became very angry and sent his son to Madr Desha (Punjab).

ਤਿੱਹ ਆਵਤ ਸਭ ਲੋਕ ਭਰਾਨੇ ॥ ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਗਿਰ ਹੇਰ ਲੁਕਾਨੇ ॥
Tihh aavat sabh lok daraane|| Bade Bade gir her lukaane||
On his arrival, all were frightened and hid themselves in big hills.
~Shri Dasam Granth p. 169


Who were these great battles of the Sikhs against? The Muslim Mughals. Aurangzeb. And against the Adharma of jihadi "religion."


ਬਾਬੇ ਕੇ ਬਾਬਰ ਕੇ ਦੋਊ ॥ ਆਪ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਸੋਊ ॥
Baahe ke Baabar ke dooo|| aap dare Parmesar sooo||
The successors of both, Baba (Nanak) and Babur were created by God Himself.

ਦੀਨ ਸਾਹ ਇਨ ਕੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੋ ॥ ਦੁਨੀ ਪੱਤਿ ਉਨ ਕੌ ਅਨੁਮਾਨੋ ॥੯॥
Doon saah in ko pahichaano|| Dunoo patt(i) un kau anumaano||9||
Recognise the former as the spiritual king and the later as temporal king.9.

ਜੋ ਬਾਬੇ ਕੇ ਦਾਮ ਨ ਦੈਹੈਂ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਗਹਿ ਬਾਬਰ ਕੇ ਲੈਹੈਂ ॥
Jo Baabe ke daam na daihain|| Tin te gad(i) Baabar ke laihain||
Those who do not deliver the Guru’s money, the successors of Babur shall seize and take away forcibly from them.

ਦੈ ਦੈ ਤਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਡੀ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ ਪੁਨਿ ਲੈਹੈਂ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਲੂਟ ਬਨਾਇ ॥੧੦॥
Dai dai tin kau badoo sajaae|| Pun(i) laihain grih loot banaae||10||
They will be greatly punished (and their houses will he plundered.

ਜਬ ਹ੍ਵੈਹੈਂ ਬੇਮੁਖ ਬਿਨਾ ਧਨ ॥ ਤਬ ਚੜਿਹੈਂ ਸਿਖਨ ਕਹ ਮਾਂਗਨ ॥
Jab hvaihain bemukh binaa dhan|| Tab chadihain Sikhan kah maangad||
Those impertinent persons will he without money, they will beg for it form the Sikhs.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਿਖ ਤਿਨੈ ਧਨ ਦੈਹੈਂ ॥ ਲੂਟ ਮਲੇਛ ਤਿਨੂ ਕੌ ਲੈਹੈਂ ॥੧੧॥
Je je Sikh tinai dhan daihain|| Loot malechh tinoo kau laihain||11||
And those Sikhs, who will give them money, their houses will be plundered by the Malechhas (barbarians).
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 170-171


Who is being called as Mlecchas? Officers of Aurangzeb who are plundering the Hindus, waging war against the Sikh Army, killing the Guru's own family and Sahibzadey. Do you see anywhere that Guru is saying help build more masjids so Islamic jihadis can gain more influence and conquer more territory? There is a reason WHY the Guru Sahibaan raised Army to drive them out of power and out of influence. For one thing they were invading mlecchas (barbaric FOREIGNERS). And for another thing, they had NO DHARMIC RIGHT TO COMPEL CONVERSIONS OR DAMAGE MANDIRS OR PLUNDER HOMES OR KILL OR DISFIGURE OR RAPE INNOCENTS.



ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥
Sarab kaal hai pitaa apaaraa|| Deb(i) Kaalikaa maat hamaaraa||
Sarabloh Kal is my Father and Destroyer of all, the Devi Kalika is my mother.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 174


Yes, show me the Muslim who accepts Shiva Kal and Kalika as an equal to Allah, and that is the Muslim I call a true Indian Nationalist and NOT an aggressive Islamic militant.

So far from saying what YOU have interpolated the bani to say, "Don't judge on the basis of religion."
The bani describes the unitary consciousness underlying ultimate reality beyond this perceivable world of duality, and also calls the aggressive Muslims as MLECCHAS and JUSTIFIES WAR IN THE NAME OF CHANDI-DURGA AND KALIKA AND KRISHNA AND KALKI TO DEFEAT THEM AND DRIVE THEM AWAY!


In Panjab Muslims and Sikhs live in Harmony and brotherhood

What a blissfully short memory you have and what naive sense of peace and brotherhood. During Partition, Sikhs were considered part of the Hindu community in those days by Muslim League and attacked with the same viciousness and ferocity as Hindus when Muslims declared their jihad.

Partition: The Day India Burned -4/9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilq9_SLPU5s)

amra
13 September 2010, 04:34 PM
"And this is why the same Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji also waged war on same aggressive jihadi Muslims, to stop their oppression. Because it is not the correct path to collude with evil-doers and unite with them when they do not change their oppressive ways."

Sorry I could not read all your post, Harjas, but I am very lazy person, so i picked this one point out, to argue with.

I thought, and pardon me if I am wrong, that 80% of BabaJi's battles were with Hindu Chieftans? He only fought the mughals a couple of times.

There is a story about Eve, Adam's wife. That after they had been expelled from eden, the Shaitan sent some of his demons to seduce Eve, they come to her but she did not look at them or away from them and ignored them. Many come and then they tried to frighten her, but she ignored them. The the Jinn started whispering in her ear all sorts of evil things and took very many frightful forms of mutilated tortured bodies skeletons and the like but she ignored them all, then after a while they disappeared and Shaitan gave up trying to seduce her.

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 06:30 PM
"I thought, and pardon me if I am wrong, that 80% of BabaJi's battles were with Hindu Chieftans? He only fought the mughals a couple of times."

WOW, you have amazingly lazy and screwy view of history. The HINDU cheiftains which the Sikh Guru Sahiban fought against were those collaborators of the Mughals. Seriously, do you simply invent facts? Can you kindly, despite your professed laziness show the intellectual integrity of at least providing reference citations so that your amazing fabrications can be cross-confirmed or soundly refuted? Thanks. Rajput Banda Singh Bahadur WAS a bairaagi from the Hindu Hill chieftains, even married a daughter from them. The Guru's did not fight any united HINDU Army the way they fought Mughals. The Guru's fought traitors to the Dharma and who sided with the Mughal oppression.



ਗਊ ਬਿਰਾਹਮਣ ਕਉ ਕਰੁ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਗੋਬਰਿ ਤਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
goo biraahaman ko kar laavahu gobar tharan n jaaee ||
They tax the cows and the Brahmins, but the cow-dung they apply to their kitchen will not save them.

ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਧਾਨੁ ਮਲੇਛਾਂ ਖਾਈ ॥
dhhothee ttikaa thai japamaalee dhhaan malaeshhaan khaaee ||
They wear their loin cloths, apply ritual frontal marks to their foreheads, and carry their rosaries, but they eat food with the Muslims.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
anthar poojaa parrehi kathaebaa sanjam thurakaa bhaaee ||
O Siblings of Destiny, you perform devotional worship indoors, but read the Islamic sacred texts, and adopt the Muslim way of life.

ਛੋਡੀਲੇ ਪਾਖੰਡਾ ॥
shhoddeelae paakhanddaa ||
Renounce your hypocrisy!

ਨਾਮਿ ਲਇਐ ਜਾਹਿ ਤਰੰਦਾ ॥੧॥
naam laeiai jaahi tharandhaa ||1||
Taking the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall swim across.
~SGGS Ji ang 471


CLEARLY describing fake converts and traitors who eat food with mlecchas. Were THESE the Hindu's you were talking about?


You see the Sikhs weren't really a united Khalsa force either, which is largest reason Kingdom under Maharaja Ranjit Singh collapsed was betrayal due to feuding among his own Sikh generals. The fact is, the Rajput royal families and principalities were feuding too. When you talk about the HINDU'S are you really talking about specific Rajas and conflicts over power, land, wealth and territories? Because the fact of the matter, once the Khalsa had dominated the Punjab, they settled down much like any other Rajput chieftains, complete with their own Rajas and principalities, keeping the exact same holidays, customs, Hindu wives, patronage of mandirs and...why even the same names. So please, be much more specific. One would think you actually meant the Sikhs waged wars against Hindu's 80% of the time and only sometimes fought the Muslims. When the fact is Sikhs were very well blended in to Hindu culture, at least until time of british Raj and Singh Sabha reform.

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 06:38 PM
Cont.

Since purataan times Sikhs and the evolving Sikh rajas were indistinguishable from the Hindu Rajas. I'd like you to show how they were more like Muslims, even as the Khalsa was made up overwhelmingly of Hindu's from Hindu families and originating in same Hindustan.

http://www.royalark.net/India/india-princes.jpg
India's Princes

How interesting that Sikh Raj was nearly indistinguishable from the Hindu rajas even the same quarrelling, feuds, and disunity. Sikhs were from Hindustan and not mlecchas is the point. Why Sikhs did not just keep traveling and settle in Afghanistan? Because they remained in own homeland, HINDUSTAN. Why do you think Royal Houses of Sikh Raj were equally well represented in Indian Armed Forces of own Nation? Those Muslims who were well blended in and with own Raj betrayed the Nation agitating for Theocratic Islamic State and taking up arms against own countrymen in Partition to create this never ending anti-national jihad so like every other since Babur's times. And this is the kind of aggressive, militant Islam which rejects every other religion including Sikhism. Since Partition how many Sikhs have disappeared? When you find out come and discuss Sikh-Muslim unity.


In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2% in the years since independence. According to the 1998 Pakistan Census, caste Hindus constitute about 1.6 percent of the total population of Pakistan and about 6.6% in province of Sindh...

When Pakistan was formed in August 1947, over 7 million Hindus and Sikhs from what was East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and Pakistan's Punjab, Sindh and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwas were forced to leave this new state for India, and a similar number of Muslims chose the other way. The reasons for this incredible exodus was the heavily charged communal atmosphere in British India, deep distrust of each other, the brutality of violent mobs and the antagonism between the religious communities. The fact that over 1 million people lost their lives in the bloody violence of 1947, should attest to the fear and hate that filled the hearts of millions of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs who had to leave ancestral homes during hastily arranged partition...

Since Pakistan declared itself an Islamic nation and pursued a decidedly Islamic course in its political and social life since the 1980s, Hindus as a minority in Pakistan have had considerably fewer privileges, rights and protections in comparison to minorities in India, which constitutionally avows itself secular and giving of equal rights to its religious minorities including the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities. Cultural marginalization, discrimination, economic hardships and religious persecution have resulted in many Hindus converting to other religions, and today Hindus constitute barely 1.85% of Pakistan's population...

The increasing Islamisation of Pakistan and antagonism against India, a nation with a Hindu majority, has been an influential factor in the persecution of religious minorities, among those minorities, Hindus. Such Islamisation include the blasphemy laws, which make it dangerous for religious minorities to express themselves freely and engage freely in religious and cultural activities. The promulgation of Sharia, Quranic law has also increased the marginalization of Hindus and other minorities. Following the Babri Mosque riots in India, riots and attacks on Hindus in retaliation has only increased; Hindus in Pakistan are routinely affected by communal incidents in India and violent developments on the Kashmir conflict between the two nations." Hinduism in Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan)


"Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947 is a book by Sikh author Gurbachan Singh Talib. It was first published in 1950 by the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) and has been reprinted several times...

The Partition led to one of the greatest population movements in the 20th century, as Muslims in what would become India, and Hindus and Sikhs in what would become Pakistan, fled across the new borders. This book details the sufferings of the Hindus and Sikhs who fled their homes in the western Punjab, the North-West Frontier Province, Sindh and parts of Kashmir. An appendix contains numerous press and eyewitness accounts of atrocities committed against the refugees during the Partition.

The book takes a position against Pakistan and the Muslim League, which it accuses of planning the massacres." Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_League_Attack_on_Sikhs_and_Hindus_in_the_Punjab_1947)

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 06:43 PM
"Sorry I could not read all your post, Harjas, but I am very lazy person, so i picked this one point out, to argue with."

So you are not involved in discussion. You are simply here for propaganda. Thanks letting us know.



I thought, and pardon me if I am wrong, that 80% of BabaJi's battles were with Hindu Chieftans? He only fought the mughals a couple of times.

Who killed Guru Arjan Dev JI Sahib? And who killed Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Sahib? And who killed Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sahibzadey?

See, it becomes clearer, but only if you look. Which Baba Ji are you talking about?


There is a story about Eve, Adam's wife. That after they had been expelled from eden, the Shaitan sent some of his demons to seduce Eve, they come to her but she did not look at them or away from them and ignored them. Many come and then they tried to frighten her, but she ignored them. The the Jinn started whispering in her ear all sorts of evil things and took very many frightful forms of mutilated tortured bodies skeletons and the like but she ignored them all, then after a while they disappeared and Shaitan gave up trying to seduce her.

Sorry Ji, neither Sikhs nor Hindu's believe in Shaitan or Adam and Eve. Do you have a point with your Islamic tale, it seems rather unbalanced. Do you feel like the Hindu's are jinns of the Shaitan trying to frighten you with talk about self-defense and fighting back against oppression? Is that your point?

Believer
13 September 2010, 06:54 PM
Muslim Alert!
Muslim Alert!!
Express Service - History invented while you wait!!!


I thought, and pardon me if I am wrong, that 80% of BabaJi's battles were with Hindu Chieftans? He only fought the mughals a couple of times.



So you are not involved in discussion. You are simply here for propaganda. Thanks letting us know.

Who killed Guru Arjan Dev JI Sahib? And who killed Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Sahib? And who killed Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sahibzadey?

See, it becomes clearer, but only if you look. Which Baba Ji are you talking about?

Harjas Kaur
13 September 2010, 07:22 PM
He doesn't even have the courtesy to tell us which Baba ji, as a proclaimed "Sikh" you would think he would know. Perhaps he meant Guru Gobind Singh Ji whose own father Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji laid down his life to defend those same Hindu's and was martyred for refusing forced conversion under torture to Islam. And also Guru Gobind Singh Ji whose 2 eldest sons were killed in combat fighting Mughals under Aurangzeb. The Sikhs were bitterly betrayed and massive force arrayed against them. Was this the same Baba Ji whose 2 youngest sons were bricked alive and tortured to death for refusing to convert to Islam, while his very own mother, Mata Gujri Sahiba Ji died from sorrow after their martyrdom and also from neglect having been locked in the freezing cold tower at advanced age.

Was THIS the Baba Ji he was talking about? Seriously? Because this Guru was also betrayed by collaborators among own Sikhs too. ut enemy of Dharma was always Muslim jihadis who wrought all this turmoil and destruction in the first place. There were some 70,000 mandirs destroyed by jihadis over the centuries in an attempted cultural genocide.


Guru Gobind Singh Ji's father is praised in this bani:


ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥
darookrisan tin ke sut vae|| Tin te Teg Bahaadar bhae||12||
Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
Tilak janjhoo raakhaa Prabh taa kaa|| Koono bado kaloo maih saakaa||
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
Saadhan het(i) itoo jin(i) daroo|| Soos(u) dooaa par soo na ucdaroo||13||
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
Dharam het(i) saakaa jin kooaa|| Soos(u) dooaa par sirar(u) na dooaa||
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 131

Chamak De Taare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ELORiWzZXs&feature=related)

PARAM
14 September 2010, 11:55 AM
You know manything in the right way, but you have a wrong part too


Many of Guru saviours were Brahmans


Bhai Mati Dass

Bhai Sati Dass

Banda Bahadur

were Brahman too

Ranjit Singh's General Hari Singh Nalva was also a brahman




Some anti-brahmin writers changed them to other clans, just to claim that it was Gangu brahman who deceived Guru and that brahmans have nothing to do with those gurus.




It were all Muslims who killed Gurus and their families, as for what amara says, Guru's fights with Hindu chiefs you are right no Hindu was in war with Gurus, but there were several Hindus in Mughal Army, Muslims use them to fight for Muslim invade, they also used Rajputs against Marathas.

Harjas Kaur
15 September 2010, 05:33 AM
PARAM writes:

You know manything in the right way, but you have a wrong part too
Many of Guru saviours were Brahmans

Bhai Mati Dass

Bhai Sati Dass

Banda Bahadur

were Brahman too

Ranjit Singh's General Hari Singh Nalva was also a brahman

Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Sati Das Ji were brahmins, that is correct. Bhai Gurdas Ji, the kunji to Adi Granth was a Chhibar brahmin. Banda Bahadur Ji was called bairaagi Madho Laxman Das, he was a Minhas Rajput and his Bandai Khalsa regiment were largely Rajputs and married a daughter of the Shivalik Hill Rajas (Rajputs). He was not a brahmin. Hari Singh Nalwa Ji was an Uppal Khatri and not a brahmin.

I don't understand what part I have wrong since I haven't really delved into the caste aspect of Sikhi history in this thread. Neither can I see any point which it relates. Perhaps you can inform me Jio.


"Hari Singh Nalwa, Maharaja Ranjit Singh's most feared general was an Uppal Khatri. The father and son pair of the Diwans Sawan Mal and Mul Raj Chopra were successive governors of Multan under Ranjit Singh...

A majority of Khatris are Sanatan Hindus. As noted in the introduction, the Khatri community have been positioned in roles of administration, rule and warfare within Punjab. The Khatris were the patrons ('yajamansas' or in Punjabi 'jajmani') of the Saraswat Brahmins. The Khatris are among the very few non-Brahmin communities that have traditionally studies the vedas. The Khatris, along with Aroras and Lohanas used to be engaged in trade in central asia. The Hindu temples of Kabul and the Hindu Fire Temple of Baku built and maintained by them still exist. ..

A portion of the Khatris are Sikh. All the Ten Sikh Gurus were Khatris from the Sodhi and Bedi clans (which claim Surya Banshi Kshatriya descent). During the lifetime of the Gurus, most of their major supporters and Sikhs were Khatris. A list of this is provided by Bhai Gurdas in Varan Bhai Gurdas, a contemporary of the Sikh Gurus." Khatri (http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Khatri)


"But in 1192, Muhammad Ghori defeated Prithviraj Chauhan at the second battle of Terrain and took control of this district. So perhaps somewhere between the late 11th century and 16th century, a Rajput family migrated from this area to the Punjab. There are many reasons for this migration; the area of Sadhaura is noted in history because its Hindus were persecuted so widely under Islamic rule. For example, Banda Singh Bahadur, a Rajput Sikh warrior who seized territory for the Khalsa, liberated Sadhaura by killing its tyrannical ruler Usman Khan in 1709 because the Hindus were persecuted so badly by the Muslims. So probably between 1200-1500, a Mair Rajput family from Sadhaura migrated to Punjab and settled in Lasara village. To retain the history of their original ancestral town, they may have named themselves after the town of Sadhaura in Haryana."

It is believed that the name of the town "Sadhaura" is derived from "Sadhu + Raha," which means "the way of saints." This meaning seems to be logical, as the way to the Himalayas is near this town. The town of Sadhaura also has a number of ancient temples. It is bounded by the Shivalik range to the north." Notable Mair Rajput Gothras (Families) (http://mairrajputs.tripod.com/notable.html)

Rajputs are claiming Banda Singh Bahadur as a Rajput. I know of no source where brahmins are claiming him. Khatris are claiming Hari Singh Nalwa. Do you have any reference citations to show anywhere they are being claimed as brahmins?


Some anti-brahmin writers changed them to other clans, just to claim that it was Gangu brahman who deceived Guru and that brahmans have nothing to do with those gurus.

Eh, proof? And anyways I do agree with you many nerfarious Singh Sabha Tat Khalsay have tried to eliminate the rich brahmin contribution to Sikhism and dominate with Jat politics, of this there can be no doubt. They have tried to make Hindu's appear to be enemies of Sikhs. But for a fact, many well known and respected Vedic scholars who were chelas/sikhs of the guru Sahibaan were Brahmin caste and even educated the children of Guru Sahibaan own families. And for a fact Hindu's were completely disunited militarily and politically at this stage of history. And for another fact, the enemy of the Sikhs was Mughal jihadis and their Hindu collaborators.



It were all Muslims who killed Gurus and their families, as for what amara says, Guru's fights with Hindu chiefs you are right no Hindu was in war with Gurus, but there were several Hindus in Mughal Army, Muslims use them to fight for Muslim invade, they also used Rajputs against Marathas.

Yes, the Guru Sahibaan warned against treasonous fake Hindu's who colluded with the enemy and became "butchers of the world." Same can be said for treasonous Sikhs who betrayed Sikh Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh to the British for status, jagirs and wealth. These divisions within Hindustan were always the cause of defeats. Had there been unity Hindustan would have been the greatest force the world has ever seen.

PARAM
15 September 2010, 10:52 AM
PARAM writes:


Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Sati Das Ji were brahmins, that is correct. Bhai Gurdas Ji, the kunji to Adi Granth was a Chhibar brahmin. Banda Bahadur Ji was called bairaagi Madho Laxman Das, he was a Minhas Rajput and his Bandai Khalsa regiment were largely Rajputs and married a daughter of the Shivalik Hill Rajas (Rajputs). He was not a brahmin. Hari Singh Nalwa Ji was an Uppal Khatri and not a brahmin.

I don't understand what part I have wrong since I haven't really delved into the caste aspect of Sikhi history in this thread. Neither can I see any point which it relates. Perhaps you can inform me Jio.


Rajputs are claiming Banda Singh Bahadur as a Rajput. I know of no source where brahmins are claiming him. Khatris are claiming Hari Singh Nalwa. Do you have any reference citations to show anywhere they are being claimed as brahmins?

On other hand Banda Bahadur and Hari Singh Nalva are also known as from Chibber clan.

There are many ways to call him-

Harjinder Singh Dilgeer -Rajput
Ganda Singh -Dogra Rajput (but Dogra is a Brahman clan)
H.A. Rose - both Rajput and Khatri
P.N. Bali - Mohyal Brahman
Hakim Rai -Khatri
J D Chunnigham - South Indian
Major Barstow- Maratha Peshva
Kahan Singh Nabha- Minhas Rajput
Sukhdyal Singh- Bahadur Shah's General


According to some Banda Bahadur was born in Mendhar village of Poonch in Shivalik ranges, in Jammu & Kashmir, in a Chhibber family on 27 October, 1670. His original name was Lakhsman Dev and that of his father Ram Dev.

Many writers are trying to show even Mati Dass as of Bhalla clan, but he was the ancestor of Dr. Bhai Mahavir who is not accepting their claim.




Eh, proof? And anyways I do agree with you many nerfarious Singh Sabha Tat Khalsay have tried to eliminate the rich brahmin contribution to Sikhism and dominate with Jat politics, of this there can be no doubt. They have tried to make Hindu's appear to be enemies of Sikhs. But for a fact, many well known and respected Vedic scholars who were chelas/sikhs of the guru Sahibaan were Brahmin caste and even educated the children of Guru Sahibaan own families. And for a fact Hindu's were completely disunited militarily and politically at this stage of history. And for another fact, the enemy of the Sikhs was Mughal jihadis and their Hindu collaborators.

You already know so I do not need to give any proof, I never said every Sikh do that, many Sikhs still go to Brahman Sabhas of there original clans.




Yes, the Guru Sahibaan warned against treasonous fake Hindu's who colluded with the enemy and became "butchers of the world." Same can be said for treasonous Sikhs who betrayed Sikh Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh to the British for status, jagirs and wealth. These divisions within Hindustan were always the cause of defeats. Had there been unity Hindustan would have been the greatest force the world has ever seen.
The wrost part is Muslims are using this to claim that Sikhs fighted Hindus.

prithvi
21 September 2010, 11:49 AM
Panjabi-Sikh youth clash with perverts!

Gangs Clash!!
7th March 2007

Three men were injured as youth gangs fought in Bradford on Friday night. About 10 Panjabi Sikh youth made their way to a council estate in Bradford, Yorkshire, where they believed a Panjabi girl was kept against her will and being exploited by a gang of perverted Pakistani Muslim men.

It follows the mysterious disappearance of Miss “S” from Derby University, where she was studying for a Master’s Degree.
Worried family and friends said she became “distant” over the few weeks leading to her disappearance.
Sikh students on campus were alarmed to see her driven around by local Pakistani drug pushers in the early hours of the night.
“I have known her (Miss “S”) for 3 years, she has always been sensible and kept good company. We are all very concerned about her safety, said a fellow student.

After speaking to the girl’s parents, Panjabi Sikh youth were convinced that this was another case of blackmail, brainwashing or manipulation by predatory Pakistani Muslim men. The whereabouts of Miss “S” was traced to a flat in Bradford.

“We went there with the intention of speaking to Miss “S”, just to see if she was okay, but were nevertheless prepared to meet violent opposition” said Teja Singh, who was present during the confrontation,
“We were greeted with racist abuse by one man, and within 5 minutes three cars full of youth showed up, that’s when things got a bit ugly. After a few initial exchanges of words, it kicked off. We fought and chased them down the main road, and dispersed when the police arrived” explained Teja Singh.

“It’s not about childish street gang fights or about dominance, I don’t give a **** about all that. I will not stand by while our Sikh sisters are being exploited! I would have done the same if the gang were of any race. We are not racist, we are just protecting our sisters from perverts” said another youth present that evening.

Miss “S” made contact with her family that night and members of her family picked her up from Bradford in the early hours of Saturday morning.

----------------

With increasing cases of racially-motivated grooming and sexual-exploitation of Panjabi girls by extremist Muslim Men, Sikh students are being told to be vigilant, especially of:

Disguise
Non-Sikhs wearing Kara’s, fake names or fake identities on the Internet.

Drug Rape Drug
A common entrapment method; do not leave your drink unattended in bars/clubs.


Affected by issues raised?
Know someone in danger?
Email us: SarabhaPanjab@googlemail.com


Download this small file..A MUST READ FOR AWARNESS...something about the religion of peace lol
http://rapidshare.com/files/410675505/see_the_truth.zip.html
or
http://www.mediafire.com/?ith8u6hyt5a2t22


-------

bastard sullas....
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23386539-details/Police+protect+girls+forced+to+convert+to+Islam/article.do


That Evil Quran is the reason why nonmuslims girls must be CONVERTED, as some of you realize. For those who are ignorant of what the Quran says, here is the verse:

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. Quran 2:221

-the language is clear.
-this, of course, extends to the unforced type of conversion, Hindu/Sikh girl. The justifications for kidnapping/rape are elsewhere, primarily in the Hadiths.

Harjas Kaur
21 September 2010, 03:08 PM
Yes, this has been going on for some time. There was a well known street gang known as Sher e Punjab which still has a lot of respect in the Sikh community because they were formed to rescue Sikh girls from a life of coerced conversion and/or prostitution by Muslims.

It's old news, still happening. The only thing that's shocking is the public is so unaware. Even when it's in their face, they simply don't want to believe the "religion of peace" can do these things.

prithvi
27 September 2010, 02:06 PM
hmm but some times i feel its happening for good only... az if this thing wont happen then these people wiill start barking about all those dead things like khalistan .... i mean this all happening mostly in UK...az paki crowd there more,,and because of this i hardly see any UK sikh is pro khalistan..as they are busy in handeling like these girl convertion situations.

And on other hand canada sikhs and some from usa are more pro khalistani then any sikh around the world...wait a min,,do paki crowd less there,,,yesss, but now they increasing in canada too...soo there too will be situation like wat its now in UK..thatz mean end of remaining handfull off khalistani propogenda in canada too.

and that girl in that video is so shameless...as by her poor mother that sulla saying dirt about sikhism..that "meh marjana but tum sikho ke gurudware sir nahi jhukana" ..
iske toh meh, serious i want to meet like this people personally..bloody sulla if i was there then sure i will chop of urs head and throw in urs sh*t mosque ...useless man made barbaric religion.

and what these singa's r doing...are they busy in drinking or doing bhangra only !
and so called khalistani peeing in their pants ? and shouting raj karega khalsa..oh yeaaah fatu's

but seriously these girls really dont have brain,they simply cant understand wat these sullas want...only conversation.
Rightly said too much freedom in any field or for womens is dangerous.

shambhvi
10 November 2010, 02:04 AM
Skimmed over the thread, was quite interesting...

From whatever I have learnt , soul of any religion is not bad.

Once its followers dilute/manipulate the original teachings, things get ugly, be it any religion.

Everything is karma. The video of the lady showing crying for her daughter, may be the daughter did something super bad to the guy.

We all live our karma...Even though some religions deny past life, but what abt those babies born handicapped??

Guru Nanak ji said Sarb rog ka aukhad keval naam...

Its meditation & chanting that can save you from sanchit karma.

Blessed be

sankar
10 November 2010, 10:10 PM
Everything is karma. The video of the lady showing crying for her daughter, may be the daughter did something super bad to the guy.

may be, but not necessarily........
the concept of karma, its very complicated....
to my understanding a person with no bad karma could sometimes be affected by the karma of others.

shambhvi
11 November 2010, 04:27 AM
may be, but not necessarily........
the concept of karma, its very complicated....
to my understanding a person with no bad karma could sometimes be affected by the karma of others.

Request you to please explain this...

Harjas Kaur
11 November 2010, 05:52 AM
When a jiv is born in a new body as a little baby, he is brand new and yet ancient at the same time. We are born into new identities and we (generally) don't remember the past (although in rare instances some do.) We are born with a new chance, even if with unequal circumstances due to seeds of past karma.

It is not for any one of us to judge the unknown past, because just as the brand new child has a new beginning, so do we in relation to this jiva. How we act and react to this jiva says a lot about ourselves, more than about the past sins of the jiva.

It is true, sometimes a fateful encounter has been arranged by the Divine Lord, but our actions to it are our own. They are our very brand new chance to be better people, to act according to Dharma. If someone has a debt owed, but does not react to the impulses of collected karma of all the interacting jivas, of the society, the nation, etc, then both parties begin to be free of the cycle of suffering. Otherwise what actions you take, if they are sinful, even if permitted due to a past karmic debt, then that is just accruing new debt of kriyamana karma in this lifetime, and repetition of the cycle of suffering.

Yes, it is true that karma creates these circumstances and it cannot be said such a thing as "innocent" victim. But that is from the Divine cosmic perspective only. That is from the viewpoint of He who knows the hidden motivations and inner truth of the atma life after life. From our human perspective, everyone here came as a brand new person with a new identity. We have no right to make a demand on unknown debts or act with indifference to the suffering of others based on such assumptions. That is not a full and proper understanding of the nature of karmic debt.

Now there is a problem when a community uses a religious teaching to act out in malice violating the innocence of others and creating a cycle of pain and suffering. Those are sins accruing in this very life. And those kind of teachings which justify evil are adharmic.

There is another problem when some person is hurting and we people don't "care" about what happens to them, or are not concerned to help them. That becomes our paap. There are times when innocent do suffer. Sometimes saints have been born to teach the world meaning of compassion when the world becomes selfish or heartless. A holy soul will accept suffering and adversity to teach the lesson that we should care about what happens to others since we ourselves don't know the past. We don't know our own roles that we played, how perhaps we didn't act when we should have. Now today is a new beginning. This life is a new opportunity for us to do good and not ignore suffering situations or conditions of injustice.



kritva dayam ca jiveshu
dattva cabhayam atmavan
mayy atmanam saha jagad
drakshyasy atmani capi mam

Showing compassion to all living entities, you will attain self-realization.
Giving assurance of safety to all, you will perceive your own self as well
as all the universes in Me, and Myself in you.
~Srimad Bhagavatam 3.21.31

PARAM
11 November 2010, 12:33 PM
.

when some person is hurting and we people don't "care" about what happens to them, or are not concerned to help them. That becomes our paap.

Really True I have to say that if something is happening to other Hindus and we are not preventing it, we will suffer it later, but if we prevent it then it will become our strength

Hindu Sikh girls are always targetted, boys always assulted where Muslims population is even 2% or more.


There are times when innocent do suffer. Sometimes saints have been born to teach the world meaning of compassion when the world becomes selfish or heartless. A holy soul will accept suffering and adversity to teach the lesson that we should care about what happens to others since we ourselves don't know the past. We don't know our own roles that we played, how perhaps we didn't act when we should have. Now today is a new beginning. This life is a new opportunity for us to do good and not ignore suffering situations or conditions of injustice.





kritva dayam ca jiveshu


dattva cabhayam atmavan


mayy atmanam saha jagad
drakshyasy atmani capi mam


Showing compassion to all living entities, you will attain self-realization.
Giving assurance of safety to all, you will perceive your own self as well
as all the universes in Me, and Myself in you.
~Srimad Bhagavatam 3.21.31
Thats why Muslims calls PM as the last messanger of ***, so that suffering people should not trust any noble person who is trying to bring peace

sankar
11 November 2010, 10:53 PM
Request you to please explain this...

Enlightened people are those who got rid of all their bad karma, still many of them had bitter experiences.

Muslim devotee of krishna (Haridas) was whipped mercilessly by muslim court.
Mansoor was Stonned to death for saying Anl Huq( i am YOU).
Once when Buddha was sitting under a tree talking to his disciples a man came and spit on his face
Socrates was poisoned to death.
and jesus, we all know.......

if you compare the fate of holy persons in the west with those in east, it is quite clear that they suffered because other people were bad. To stay away from the sight of these people is one option to avoid such sufferings. Living and interacting in a society composed of people with negative qualities(or karma), suffering is almost unavoidable (to my understanding), it is like you chose to stand in a railway track.


A Gautama quote,
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought"

i believe, karma is all about thoughts, it is thoughts which creates good and bad karma, thoughts of other people are able to influence our life. You may not be having any bad karma, but other people would create it for you as a part of their bad karma. As we have ego, it may appear as there is no justice, but ultimately there is only one soul, so no injustice.

Feel free to correct me if it appears faulty.

regards....

yajvan
12 November 2010, 10:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté sankar,


Enlightened people are those who got rid of all their bad karma, still many of them had bitter experiences.


Let me ask for your opinion on this matter. Where did the enlightened rid themselves of this bad karma? Where did it go? Do have an opinion of the process?

praṇām

Sahasranama
13 November 2010, 05:48 AM
It's just a metaphor, but maybe when you are free of karma it's like a silent ocean, when the ocean has become silent, can you ask where the waves have gone?

hanumansolo
21 November 2010, 10:08 AM
This is a thread full of hate and bigotry. I can't believe a beautiful form like this tolerates such threads. Would it not be enough to focus on our religion and ignore the rest (even if we don't like them)? Why analyze too much and create enmity?

Sahasranama
21 November 2010, 10:16 AM
I find this thread very informative and it would be a shame if it was removed. India is still under a lot of muslim influence, know thy enemy.

Harjas Kaur
21 November 2010, 11:27 AM
"This is a thread full of hate and bigotry. I can't believe a beautiful form like this tolerates such threads."Perhaps you should get a clue.

I would invite you on this level, and so here is my proposal. Why don't you take the position of defending the Muslim religion with hard facts...instead of histrionic diatribes about how other people are filled with hate and bigotry...and then engage us in debate without emotionalism or propagandistic defense of something you don't understand. That way rather than shutting down communication on controversial situations, we might come to understand one another's position a little better.

For one thing, you don't seem to be aware of the literal war which Islam has waged against India and Hinduism for several hundred years, and not just in the past by a "few bad guys" but by millions and as recently as the Bangladesh anti-Hindu genocide in 1978 with murdered 3 million with 40 million Hindus who are still officially missing, no doubt from forced conversions. And we could explore the anti-Hindu genocide of the Kashmiri pandits in Kashmir and the gang-rapes of the same or the genocidal activities of Geelani and the silent complicity of the United states which defends it's partner Pakistan.

Would you like to be HONEST about the crimes committed and justified in the name of Islam, or are you busy pretending that every religion teaches the exact same things and that Talibans who mutilate people with amputations are somehow the equivalent of Hindu Dharma?

Deal or no? I will be awaiting you new topic thread in defense of Islamic spirituality and accusing Hindu's of blind hate and bigotry when it is you who are blind yourself. Don't worry, I will be more than happy to engage you in debate dear one.

When a religion's scriptures and commentaries literally teach murder and rape of unbelievers, it's to be expected that the more fanatical and devout will practice such things with the complete and full justification of respected religious authorities of same religion. And to confront such degrading and evil attacks on our people is NOT an act of bigotry. Rather, IGNORING the injustices and degrading assaults against Sikh and Hindu women especially is ADHARMIC!

hanumansolo
21 November 2010, 12:24 PM
All I am saying is:

1) If someone logs into this forum and finds hateful stuff about other religions, it'll project a negative image of Hindus (and of this forum, for sure).

2) There are a billion Muslims, so stereotyping them (or anyone else) is wrong.

3) We're not experts in any religion, so we simply lack the authority to comment negatively on Islam or other religions; we don't even know the language, so it's quite hypocritical.

4) All the problems you mentioned are political in nature. And since we have zero political influence, it's better not to waste time on this. It only spoils our mood and gives zero results in the end.

Enough said.

amra
21 November 2010, 12:27 PM
I am going to eat a Ham Sandwich as my own protest against these muslim fanatics. I encourage everyone else to do the same they are scared of pork so we can scare them off by eating pork every friday. I know a punjabi recipe of how to make soup from pigs trotters its called karoray it is very nice in winter.

Harjas Kaur
21 November 2010, 12:51 PM
"There are a billion Muslims, so stereotyping them (or anyone else) is wrong."No one is analyzing a billion innocent people. We are confronting the actual teachings of the religion and the brutal ways in which it is currently being acted out. Since those actions are occurring in the name of Islam and by fundamentalist Muslims and with the blessing and financial support of leading Muslim clerics, it would be irresponsible to deny.

Individual Muslims who may disagree with these things is not at issue here. but actual teachings of Islam and actions of fanatical Muslims in the name of THEIR OWN RELIGION and not any politics is at issue here. Yes, indeedy.


"We're not experts in any religion, so we simply lack the authority to comment negatively on Islam or other religions;"And you brainchild are posting in the SIKH section of the forum. Know you not that the Sikhs were an ARMY which fought and died defending land of Hindustan from Islamic invaders? Know you not that 2 Sikh Gurus were executed by Muslim rulers for refusing to convert to Islam? Know you not that the last Sikh Guru, guru Gobind Singh Ji's own father, mother, and all 4 sons DIED because of ISLAM?

Have you never heard of the Sahibzadey? The two youngest princes and sons of the Guru who were tortured to death to force conversion? I dare say the unbelievable insensitivity you show defending that faith which promotes torture and murder which is practiced to this day, on this forum section is beyond ignorant.

Banda Singh Bahadur - Ravinder Grewal
Tribute to the great hero of the Punjab Banda Singh Bahadur who was tortured to death for fighting against Muslim oppression. His Fauj/Army was ultimately successful in driving the Muslim invaders out of India and established Sikh Kingdom over what is now Pakistan. Sikhs were betrayed by British Raj and by Gandhi-Nehru and Sikh Kingdom was stolen and lands given to Jinnah in partition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-asmQGrFk

Kurbani
Showing sacrifice (kurbani) and torture of Sikhs for fighting against Islamic oppression and refusing to convert to Islam. You should honor these shaheed Singhs, they are the pride of India and the glory of all decent people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYmYQDQ1gUA

Guru Arjan Dev Sahib ji's Martyrdom
In honor of Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Ji's martyrdom at hands of Muslim rulers and Islamic intolerance.

Did you even know the ancestor of Jehangir Shah went personally on her knees to beg forgiveness of the Sikhs for the literal butchery caused by her royal ancestors? She even talked about what terrible curse had befallen the family of the Mughal Kings and claimed it was due to their injustices against innocents.

YOU are the one who lacks authority to comment on these matters and in such a rude and insensitive way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClKdm8MvPN0&feature=related

Kurbani Productions- Dhan Nauven Guru
In honor of Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji who gave His head but not His faith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eMP4A7-yW0&feature=related

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6QAPpxmMJo8/SSmXYkEZvBI/AAAAAAAAAI0/sniUgbM8vJI/s400/pic29.jpg
Bhai Mati Das Ji's kurbani at the hands of radical Islam.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4222018298_0ceb0756f1.jpg
Bhai Sati Das Ji's kurbani at the hands of radical Islam.

http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smsarticles/essaysonsikhvalues/subegandshahbaz.jpg
Bhai Subheg Singh's kurbani at the hands of radical Islam.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7ylTdhYE31E/R8Mc-B9lMCI/AAAAAAAAAGU/6Fv9kVwHLuU/s320/sahibzadey3.jpg
In honor of the youngest Sahibzadey (princes) of Guru Gobind Singh who at tender ages of 7 and 9 were held in freezing tower and then bricked alive for refusing to deny Sikhi and convert to Islam. How glorious they were! And how evil is the creed which does not even reform the very teachings which led to hundreds of years of atrocities and which brutalities continue to this day. And out of own COWARDICE among Muslim poeple to confront what is WRONG in the teachings of inequality and murderous prejudice of Islam against every other religion FAIL to make the necessary doctrinal changes which WOULD institutes ISLAM as a religion of "peace" instead of religion of "war." Because that change will never happen by denial and wishful thinking. it's got to take the KURBANI of the Muslims who really do believe in Justice and against injustice and who will face the murderous wrath of their own co-religionists to effect the necessary reforms. AND UNTIL THEY DO, I have no obligation to fail with them in speaking the truth about the offenses of aggressive Islam against the Sikh and Hindu communities.

Sahasranama
21 November 2010, 12:58 PM
I am going to eat a Ham Sandwich as my own protest against these muslim fanatics. I encourage everyone else to do the same they are scared of pork so we can scare them off by eating pork every friday. I know a punjabi recipe of how to make soup from pigs trotters its called karoray it is very nice in winter.

Who are you hurting with that, the poor animals or the muslim fanatics? I don't think they care at all what you eat.

hanumansolo
21 November 2010, 01:07 PM
Harjas Kaur,

You're talking about ancient history when bad things were happening all over the world. It's totally irrelevant. THis is the 21st century, and except for a few extremists, most people in this world are civilized. So try to see the bright side.

PARAM
21 November 2010, 01:09 PM
All I am saying is:

1) If someone logs into this forum and finds hateful stuff about other religions, it'll project a negative image of Hindus (and of this forum, for sure).

2) There are a billion Muslims, so stereotyping them (or anyone else) is wrong.

3) We're not experts in any religion, so we simply lack the authority to comment negatively on Islam or other religions; we don't even know the language, so it's quite hypocritical.

4) All the problems you mentioned are political in nature. And since we have zero political influence, it's better not to waste time on this. It only spoils our mood and gives zero results in the end.

Enough said.

Oh well I can prove all your negative image of Hindus as wrong and lies, and yes Islam was only a terrorist organisation made by Hazrat The Terrorisr Muhammad. If you want I can prove it, and Warning - no muslim is ever succed to ans it, they only start fighting, do you want me to post? Nobody will ban you but you cannot ans it.


I am going to eat a Ham Sandwich as my own protest against these muslim fanatics. I encourage everyone else to do the same they are scared of pork so we can scare them off by eating pork every friday. I know a punjabi recipe of how to make soup from pigs trotters its called karoray it is very nice in winter.

Oh, Vedas do not allow non vegiterian, and even Hinduism have Varah Avtar, it was prayed in pre islamic rule but not anymore, so we cannot eat, as for you it's your choice, but on every Dharmic day remain Vegitarian just like Tuesday.

Harjas Kaur
21 November 2010, 01:33 PM
You're talking about ancient history when bad things were happening all over the world. It's totally irrelevant. THis is the 21st century, and except for a few extremists, most people in this world are civilized. So try to see the bright side.Are you stupid? Did you not even read the OP which is about the THOUSANDS of rapes to compel conversions in Sikh and Hindu girls by Muslim Fanatics happening today? Irrelevant? Try to see the bright side? What about honesty and JUSTICE?

Sept 2010 is ancient history? Are you for real? 1971 genocide of 3 million Bangladeshis by fanatical Muslims is ancient history? Are you seriously that incapable of ascertaining the facts in your face? Why are you posting here just to be insensitive and stir up controversy? Is there some arrogant reason why you are defending Muslims? Are you a Muslim? And if so, why are you posting all your anti-Hindu nonsense here?

What is that about?

Deganga Riot Pics – September 2010
"The poster reads – We want the persecutors of the Hindus to be arrested."
http://hindusamhati.blogspot.com/2010/09/deganga-riot-pics-september-2010.html

Bengal riot victims live in fear, anxiety
“Either kill us or give us a reason to live with dignity. They have torched our houses and shops, looted everything we had,” cried Uttam Saha of Saha Communications, who lost goods worth Rs 4.5 lakh to the bedlam on Monday.

Niranjan Sarkar of Kartickpur said, “I myself saw Nurul Islam shouting at his men, who came in trucks from Beliaghata, Sashan and Basirhat, to ravage the temple.” Overcome with rage and humiliation, he added, “They smashed the Kali and Shani idols after desecrating them.”
http://www.dailypioneer.com/282172/Bengal-riot-victims-live-in-fear-anxiety.html


Just look at the never-ending destruction of Hindu temples, deities and attacks on Hindu population and talk some more lying sweet talk about how beautiful Islam is and how evil the Hindu's are. Do you ever hear about Hindu's going into Muslim countries kidnaping and raping girls to force conversions or destroying their temples? then why are you defending Muslims in India doing the same?

Why don't you defend the innocent? Why don't you have the courage of your convictions to confront what is really wrong? Why can't you just admit that religious ethnic cleansing is the practice of Islam?

http://www.chakranews.com/13-year-old-hindu-girl-abducted-in-pakistan-and-forcibly-converted-to-islam/936


http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/persecution-by-islam/kidnapping-of-hindu-girls-for-raping-or-conversion-and-marriage-to-muslims-2/

amra
21 November 2010, 03:16 PM
Who are you hurting with that, the poor animals or the muslim fanatics? I don't think they care at all what you eat.

Sorry Paji you are right i must try to give up meat.

But don't the shastra's say that talking bad of other people or things is like eating meat?

Harjas Kaur
22 November 2010, 04:08 AM
Sant nindya is condemned. Speaking the truth about malfeasances of corrupted religious teachings and their fanatical cohorts which engage in abusive criminality is not a wrongdoing. To note actual facts of wrongdoing is not nindya.

Sahasranama
22 November 2010, 04:15 AM
Sorry Paji you are right i must try to give up meat.

But don't the shastra's say that talking bad of other people or things is like eating meat?

I am just saying, you want to eat pig to piss of fanatic muslims. This is not going to work.

Hindus will be pissed of if you kill a cow, because they revere the cows as mothers.

Muslims will not be pissed of if you kill a pig, they think a pig is impure, therefore they just don't want to eat it, but they could care less about what you are eating or killing. They have no reverence for the animal, they are in fact repulsed by it.


Sant nindya is condemned. Speaking the truth about malfeasances of corrupted religious teachings and their fanatical cohorts which engage in abusive criminality is not a wrongdoing. To note actual facts of wrongdoing is not nindya.

Thanks, the sants however great they are, are human beings who can make mistakes and therefore mislead the population, because of their reputation. If a hindu saint is praising Christ or condemning idol worship, I have no problem pointing it out as mistake.

amra
22 November 2010, 06:13 AM
Speaking the truth about malfeasances of corrupted religious teachings and their fanatical cohorts which engage in abusive criminality is not a wrongdoing. To note actual facts of wrongdoing is not nindya.

So what is the truth? I have heard muslims say that they possess the truth that they have facts of the corruption of western society how they have murdered and raped thousands of Palestinans and murdered Iraqi children, 500,000 killed through US sanctions - this is all backed by facts and stats. Statistics can be moulded to whatever a person desires. Whenever someone says they know the truth i become very scared of them, nobody knows anything close to the truth each knows his or her own peculiarities and that is all. And even if they know those then it is a great blessing.

Sahasranama
22 November 2010, 07:15 AM
Whenever someone says they know the truth i become very scared of them

I know the truth.

Am I spooking you. :D

Harjas Kaur
22 November 2010, 06:23 PM
>>Speaking the truth about malfeasances of corrupted religious teachings and their fanatical cohorts which engage in abusive criminality is not a wrongdoing. To note actual facts of wrongdoing is not nindya.<<

"So what is the truth? I have heard muslims say that they possess the truth" Can you see the illogical switch here? Let me make it plainer.
1. Speaking the truth about malfeasances as per the OP
2. Declaring to articulate a religious absolute philosophy.

Kindly note those are not the same things. One is referencing proven criminal wrongdoing and pointing to the adharma of a religious doctrinal justification for it. The other is making some bold pronouncement of absolutism and insisting that others follow it, which, hence, leads to the first problem. But they are NOT the same things. Per the OP the tendency was noted that in several countries aggressive Muslim missionaries have engaged in date rape and other Romeo-style seduction of young girls from other religions in order to coerce conversions. These people have even videotaped the victims for blackmail purposes. The Quran and Hadiths which justify these abhorrent activities have already been cited. If you have a divergent opinion perhaps you could debate those sources directly rather than dissassemble by means to obscure and conceal the actual point, and to digress going completely off the cliff with irrelevant counterpoints about religious absolutism rather than criminal wrongdoing.


"they have facts of the corruption of western society how they have murdered and raped thousands of Palestinans and murdered Iraqi children, 500,000 killed through US sanctions - this is all backed by facts and stats."So is your counterpoint that since western countries have started a war and engaged in brutalities that aggressive missionary campaigns to rape and seduce non-Muslim population is acceptable? Have Hindu's and Sikhs also gone to war with Muslims and committed these "mass atrocities" whereby they are singled out as the most frequent victims? Your "logic" eludes me completely, since it is clearly a religious schema and not a political retaliation necessarily targeting white westerners, but rather targeting desi populations.


"Statistics can be moulded to whatever a person desires."Statistics were never the focus of the OP it was a side derailment you just now introduced in your counter-argument about the statistics involving western crimes against Muslim population which is entirely irrelevant to a discussion about aggressive and underhanded missionary conversion tactics.


"Whenever someone says they know the truth i become very scared of them, nobody knows anything close to the truth each knows his or her own peculiarities and that is all." Since you are making an assertion about a point which was never made anywhere in this thread (i.e., Absolute spiritual conviction or "Truth" by philosophical definition) then your comments about being "afraid" of such absolutism must be taken in context to refer to the absolute scriptural justifications that rapists in the name of missionary coercion are themselves using, and yes, I agree with you that aggressive and criminal missionary activities against impressionable young girls and young women is abhorrent in the extreme and I fear for assault against society by such fanatical religionists who justify Adharma, as you seem to be doing.


"I have heard muslims say that they possess the truth that they have facts of the corruption of western society..." Did you not just aggressively defend rapist Muslim missionaries by countering that atrocities committed by the West. Is this the given justification for coerced conversions under date rape, compulsion, videotaped blackmail and impregnation of young girls and women belonging to religions other than Islam?


"nobody knows anything close to the truth each knows his or her own peculiarities and that is all."You don't believe the OP video of the mother crying because of what happened to her own 15 year old daughter as a result of an aggressive adult Muslim missionary impregnating and indoctrinating her? Or perhaps these stories are simply "inconvenient truths" that aggressively pro-Muslim supporters like yourself would prefer to ignore in avalanche of irrelevancy about philosophical Absolutism, the Western military venture and Statistics.

amra
23 November 2010, 05:22 AM
Everything you have quoted is a partial truth, one aspect of the total situation. The danger is when this partial truth is taken to be a whole truth. Not in the metaphysical sense of Truth, but the truth of the whole of what can be called the 'Muslim Problem'. What is the value of going on a 'crusade' against muslims, trying to expel them from the 'Holy Land'. This crusade will only cause more suffering in the Psyche of human beings. The only criteria for revealing information and forcing issues should be whether it will be beneficial for the mass of people who consume it. From my viewpoint creating more animosity by emphasising strongly various partial truths is not beneficial for the mass of people.

Harjas Kaur
23 November 2010, 07:50 AM
"Everything you have quoted is a partial truth, one aspect of the total situation." You seem to be the mahabhagavat. Can you clarify for us which part of the OP is true and which part is not true? Or have you abandoned the original post entirely top go off on your pro-Muslim tirade blindly disregarding the warnings that aggressive missionaries are a threat to our young people and awareness of the risks to their safety should institute not only a protest from us, but from all decent Muslims themselves...instead of this ignorant and blind collusion seeking to deny and justify criminality within a community and not even exploring how to reform those passages which do in fact justify rape and terrorism. That kind of reform can only come from within the Muslim community. But it will never come so long as "Muslim advocates" continue to bluster aggressively and denounce as "prejudiced" and "hateful" anyone who brings awareness to these legitimate problems. By denying problems they are never solved.


"The danger is when this partial truth is taken to be a whole truth." Since you have elucidated nothing, this is a completely empty statement devoid of any relation to anything. The real danger is when people ignore that innocents come under physical threat due to aggressive missionary tactics and thus argue for their continued victimization in the name of some idiotic ideology of intolerance while calling whoever opposes as "discriminatory." Discrimination against what? Against aggressive missionary practices and ethnic cleansing of religions which are not tolerated and targeted as "false" and "demonic?"

Whose discrimination are you promoting exactly, and why?


"Not in the metaphysical sense of Truth, but the truth of the whole of what can be called the 'Muslim Problem'." Since this post has not addressed ISLAM specifically but rather AGGRESSIVE MISSIONARY TACTICS which are in fact being used by radicalized fanatics, then your above statement is misleading, since it implicates an intolerance of Muslims in general, rather than an abhorrence for a very specific activity which is being practiced by a radicalized section of the Islamic population.

Do you deny these rapes and coerced conversions are occurring? Is that your point in using broad sweeping generalities about "the Muslim Problem?" because I seriously don't have a Muslim problem as I do not bother with Muslims at all. But I most certainly do object loudly to abuses of Sikh, Hindu and even Christian girls who are being victimized in such degrading ways. Such "missionaries" should be hanged in the public streets! I did not discuss anything about any other facet of Islamic culture or Muslim people, so don't infer things here which have nothing to do with this topic thread, that is a derailment while promoting your own blind defense of Islam at the EXPENSE of the victims of their aggressive missionary believers.


What is the value of going on a 'crusade' against muslims, trying to expel them from the 'Holy Land'.Again, completely off topic and unrelated whatsoever to the content of the OP. I am not on any crusade, neither am I promoting the expulsion of anyone. You are creating a strawman fallacy to justify the fact that you don't give a damn about raped and deceived Sikh and Hindu girls, so long as you can blindly defend your beloved Muslims, EVEN to justifying the evil wrong-doing of the fanatic fringe! And I find your line of argumentation HIGHLY offensive and apologize to any families who have endured such deceitful degradation for the insensitivity of this derailment by fanatics who defend everything Muslim at any cost, no matter how wrong an activity might be.


"This crusade will only cause more suffering in the Psyche of human beings." I find your "compassion" hypocritical since you don't give a damn to speak in defense of the rights of the aggrieved families neither do you bother to acknowledge the very real epidemic of abuses going on in fundamentalism Muslim missionary circles. it is precisely your "advocacy" and defense of RADICAL Islamic practices and criminal acts here which allows them to continue. I repeat: UNLESS PRO-MUSLIM COMMUNITY ITSELF STARTS GIVING A DAMN AND PROTESTING THESE EGREGIOUS WRONGDOING IN NAME OF OWN RELIGION, THEY ARE GIVING TACIT APPROVAL OF THE CRIMES WHILE BLAMING THE VICTIMS!

And I can think of nothing more offensive or adharmic than that.



"The only criteria for revealing information and forcing issues should be whether it will be beneficial for the mass of people who consume it." And I happen to feel that a worldwide epidemic of date rapes and relationships under false pretenses to coerce Islamic conversions is worthy of being brought to the attention of the general public since the young girls and their families at least deserve advance warning, ESPECIALLY since no one in the MUSLIM community has the DIGNITY to send the warnings themselves while strongly condemning such practices which would give people some sense of respect for them.

When all these people do is justify and blame and deny the problems and then attack people who protest as being bigots and hate-mongers, you are GUILTY of colluding to defend criminal acts against members of another religion. And all your snot-nosed attempts to put such a blame on me as being prejudiced or inciting hate or desiring to cause expulsion of Muslims is not only a LIE ON IT'S FACE, but a smear campaign to justify and negate the harms which radical Muslims ARE doing in the name of Quran!


"From my viewpoint creating more animosity by emphasising strongly various partial truths is not beneficial for the mass of people." RAPE VICTIMS AND DECEIVED BRIDES AND WOMEN BETRAYED INTO BROTHELS IS NOT A PARTIAL TRUTH IT IS AN UGLY REALITY!

AND EVERYONE INCLUDING RELIGIOUS MUSLIM COMMUNITY SHOULD LOUDLY CONDEMN IT AS EVIL! INCLUDING YOU!

Harjas Kaur
23 November 2010, 07:55 AM
I protest the idiotic insensitivity of the forum administrators for allowing such unbelievable bias and anti-Hindu blaming and blind pro-Muslim propaganda to continue to derail and offend this very important topic.

How ashamed I am of HDF what you allow to be PROMOTED PROPGANADISTICALLY on your forums with no sense of justice or defense of the dignity of young Hindu and Sikh women!!

Does no one give a damn about Dharma and protecting innocents from harm? Then all your sadhana is a wasted hypocrisy! No wonder these things just degenerate into actual hatreds and feuding. Why destroy this forum to promote equal right of pro-Muslim fanatics to spread malicious rumor, innuendo, unsubstantiated allegations of blame and accusation.

What a shameful disgrace of a HINDU forum.

sankar
23 November 2010, 10:48 AM
Dear HK,

We understand your desperation and deep feelings in this issue. I agree with each and every point you made here, but the problem is, there is possibility for new members (especially from west) to take these topics in wrong sense, thereby underrating this forum. This board has a huge role to play in educating people about Dharma, i think it would be better if we find other means to expose the aggressiveness of those fundamentalists.
feel free to correct me ........

PARAM
23 November 2010, 10:54 AM
Sorry Paji you are right i must try to give up meat.

But don't the shastra's say that talking bad of other people or things is like eating meat?

Shastra's say is sanskrit, while translating it can be seems different meaning, It avoid 'ninda' the english translation is shown condmen, while 'ninda' means false blame, othervise truth is always right, 'Satyam Shivam Sundaram'. Speaking truth may be 'condmen' but shastras alows it

However what did you mean by half truth in previous post ? Explain the whole truth than.

Harjas Kaur, I have to say something

There are different kind of elements who are spreading anti-hindu like Claver - Who know what they are posting should be anti-hindu to spread, even in caste based forums communities group.
Paid - They have been paid to spread anti-hindu, hatered for it, they too know about there post, but they cannot counter
Misguided - They simply don't know, but they where those who were sucsessfully misguided by claver and paid elements.

First let us know the person involved in those anti-hindu thing. If this is misguided - guide it,
paid - teach a lesson,
claver - give stright ans.

That clown is banned or I had given him a blow on face.

charitra
09 April 2012, 08:42 PM
No country for Hindu minorities (http://www.dailypioneer.com/sunday-edition/sundayagenda/books-reviews/55930-no-country-for-hindu-minorities.html)

Saturday, 07 April 2012 20:13



Minoritiesand the State: Changing Social and Political Landscape of Bengal

Author : Abhijit Dasgupta, et al

Publisher : Sage

Price : Rs 795

Very fewcommunities have suffered so much in their own homeland as Hindus of Bengal,and that too at the hands of their Arabised/Islamised compatriots. While Hindusin West Bengal are declining both in number and the politico-administrativesystem, in Islamic Bangladesh they are victims of a systematic ethno-religiouscleansing. Post-partition, while Sikhs and Hindus in West Pakistan weresubjected to jhatka, in East Pakistan they became items for halal. TheNehru-Liaquat Pact (1950) actually went against Hindus of East Pakistan whileensuring greater consolidation of Muslims in India.

Bengal waspartitioned in 1947, with the Muslim-majority areas, including the Buddhistmajority Chittagong Hill Tracts (97 per cent) and Khulna (Hindu-majority),forming East Pakistan (29 per cent Hindus). In Bangladesh, they have now beenreduced to eight per cent; in Khulna they are 22 per cent; and, in theChittagong Hill Tracts the Buddhists are less than 50 per cent.

In BangladeshParliament, out of 330 members, Hindus and Buddhists account for just fiveseats. Compare it with Muslim representation in the West Bengal Assembly: Theyhave 59 seats out of 294. Not just that, Hindus of West Bengal, particularlytheir women, are often victimised by their Muslim neighbours, as in the Degangariots led by a Muslim Trinamool Congress MP. This patent unevenness betweenHindus in Bangladesh and Muslims in West Bengal is pushed below the carpet byour pseudo-secular scholars, including Abhijit Dasgupta who, along with a fewother intellectuals, has edited the book under review.

One of thebest articles in this collection is by Abul Barkat, an well-known scholar forhis work on the sufferings of Bangladeshi Hindus inflicted by the Vested(Enemy) Property Act, which has deprived Hindus of 45 per cent of the landowned by them.

Japanesescholar Masahiko Togawa recounts the grim condition of Hindus in Bangladesh,their insignificant representation in the services (based on a 20-year-olddocument, but the situation is no better currently), dispossession of property,abduction/rape/ forced conversion/forced marriages of Hindu women, non-buildingof the Ramna Kali Bari, etc. However, Togawa blunders in comparing them withMuslim minorities in India, evidently caused by the misrepresentation of factsby many Indian pseudo-seculars like Abhijit Dasgupta and Sekhar Bandopadhayawho mischievously compare the condition of the assertive and fast-growingMuslims of West Bengal with the persecuted Hindus in Bangladesh, and evenconcocting a “parallel story” of marginalisation of Muslims in West Bengal.Bandopadhaya, mentions Jogendranath Mandal, a Labour Minister in Pakistanwithout mentioning this Cabinet Minister’s flight to India.

Similarly,Dasgupta’s outlandish denial of illegal migration of Muslims from Bangladesh isabsurd. Former West Bengal Governor TV Rajeshwar, senior police officials likeBibhuti Bhushan Nandy and several scholars, basing themselves on Censusfigures, have confirmed this demographic invasion of West Bengal.

TetsuyaNakatani, a Japanese scholar, writes on Hindu (mostly Dalit) refugees in Nadiadistrict, not “getting rid of the trauma of exile and refugee-ness”. Thisproves that Dalit Hindus did not escape the wrath of their Muslimmasters/neighbours.

Rangalal Sen,a Bangladeshi scholar, examines the role of the civil society in Bangladesh incombating violence against Hindus, their forced conversion, the trauma of theirwomen, etc, but misses out the theological sanction for the ill-treatment ofpolytheists as the root cause of their sufferings. “Riots” in EastPakistan/Bangladesh are actually pogroms — one-sided attacks on the haplessHindu minority.

Sadeka Halimportrays the utter tragedy of Hindu women of Bangladesh — the land of PreetiWadeddar and venerable Anandomayee Maa. Abu Dayen provides an exhaustiveaccount of the tragedy of Hindus as portrayed by Bangladeshi writers likeShaukat Osman, Humayun Azad, Taslima Nasreen, Nirmalendu Gun, Syed Waliullah,Prashnata Mridha — a theme unknown to — or even deliberately ignored by —India’s ‘progressive’ intellectuals.

While denialof the Jewish Holocaust is a crime in Europe, the suppression of the sufferingsof Hindus in India at the hands of their Islamic conquerors/masters/neighbours,both in the past and present, is the standard practice. Negationism is thehallmark of India’s jihad-friendly ‘liberal’ intelligentsia and theirpseudo-secular political patrons.

The book is amixed bag of good and bad article — some exposes the plight of Hindus, and somedeny it outrightly. The reviewer,an expert on Bangladesh, teaches history in University of Delhi

http://www.dailypioneer.com/sunday-edition/sundayagenda/books-reviews/55930-no-country-for-hindu-minorities.html

PARAM
10 April 2012, 12:36 PM
(http://www.dailypioneer.com/sunday-edition/sundayagenda/books-reviews/55930-no-country-for-hindu-minorities.html) ---------------------------

Sad truth of KaLiYuG
Dictator Muslim rulers of India were not able to do what democratic and secular rulers are doing successfully to finish the Hindus.