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Kristina
09 September 2010, 12:53 PM
My pranams to all readers. I would like to know - is it possible for western people enter in Hindu temples, such as Jagannatha's temple in Puri or temple of Lingaraja in Bhubaneshvar, if, for example, a western woman is married with a Hindu man?

kallol
10 September 2010, 02:53 AM
Dear Kristina,

There are a few temples, where some restrictions are there. Like some temples (a very few) do not allow other religion people.

Some others allow with dress code. But majority do not have any restrictions.

Ofcourse if one is married to hindu, there is no restrictions as such apart from the temples where dress code is there. Dress codes are valid for all.

Hope it answers your question

Love and best wishes

Eastern Mind
10 September 2010, 07:42 AM
Vannakkam Kristina: Welcome to these forums.

As kallol has mentioned, it often depends on the temple. But there are very few that don't allow it provided the intent is to worship. The rule is usually stated as "No non-Hindus allowed" and often means only certain parts of the temple. My own personal experience is only with Madurai Meenakshi temple in South India, where I had to show my passport (Hindu name on it) and conversion certificate. Still the security watched me closely, but I wasn't sure if they were looking out for my safety (from devotees who may be personally strict on the policy) , or watching me for the temple's sanctity. It wasn't much fun as it distracted my devotion. The irony of course with the sign, is that the simplest way to recognise any non-Hindu is by race, so any Indian Christian, Muslim, or atheist who wanted to don the garb of a Hindu for a moment could have walked right in.

But I do agree with the policy in principle if the intent is to take pictures or just gawk at the Hindus worshiping. Intent is always hard to figure as no one is a mind reader, but anyone can recognise Hindu or modest clothing.

Aum Namasivaya

NetiNeti
10 September 2010, 10:51 AM
I have heard of some temples turning away non-Indian Hindus. It is all second hand information but seems to have some fact. It makes me sad to think it may be true. The stories all centered around western whites. I wonder if people from Bali or Trinidad have ever been turned away. I understand watching out for subversives, but the guards need to see that Hindus come in all shapes and colors and have done so for a long time. There were ancient Greeks embracing the Dharma. It is not a new thing. All followers of the Dharma should be given full and unrestricted access to all holy sites and temples.

Ganeshprasad
10 September 2010, 11:34 AM
Pranam all

i am afraid it is true for Jagannath puri, no westerner are allowed, not even western converts to Hindu. i remember a priest telling us not even Indira Gandhi was allowed, she was married to a Parsi.
During the time off Chatnya Mahaprabhu his Muslim disciple Haridas Thakur was also bared, i have not read anywhere Mahaprabhu object to this.


Kashi Vishvanath temple does not allow either.

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
10 September 2010, 01:55 PM
Vannakkam Ganeshprasad:

I've heard elsewhere that Kasi Viswanath varies day to day, hour to hour, depending on who's on duty. If I ever get to Kasi, I want to go to that temple. I guess then I'll see. but I certainly wouldn't have a fit over it if I was barred.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
10 September 2010, 02:14 PM
Namaste,

Let's put it this way. Women are held in the highest regard in Hinduism. It is the only religion that has womenhood embedded in the supreme be it Krishna or Shiva. Both at the highest level contain quality of both genders.

Without one's wife, no yagya is successful i.e. one's wife must participate in every puja, every yagya a man wants to be it for spiritual or material reasons. Some say, this life is a yagya thus symbolically, doesn't hinduism teach that without both genders nothing is complete or successful?

Woman is the mother, the janani of the universe. It is the shakti in shiva and laxami in krishna.

Satay, I think you posted this in the wrong thread by mistake.

Aum

satay
10 September 2010, 02:32 PM
namaste,

Yes! How did that happen? Moved to appropriate thread...


Satay, I think you posted this in the wrong thread by mistake.

Aum

Ganeshprasad
10 September 2010, 03:42 PM
Pranam EM


Vannakkam Ganeshprasad:

I've heard elsewhere that Kasi Viswanath varies day to day, hour to hour, depending on whose on duty. If I ever get to Kasi, I want to go to that temple. I guess then I'll see. but I certainly wouldn't have a fit over it if I was barred.

Aum Namasivaya

you are right about that, beside there is up to a point all Westerners are allowed, there is a pigeon hole from which you can have darsan.
Now years ago in another forum this Shiva devotee from US visited the temple, he was not allowed beyond that point, but the following day with familiarity with a pujari and the color off 100 rs note he was allowed in.

this temple is not the original Vishvanath, thanks to our peace loving people, it is on the right hand side off the new temple, heavily protected by police you cant miss the mosque built over it.

there is also within the new complex a well, there in is immersed the original Linga, people go there to make a wish and also donate money for the sadhus.

There is also an interesting story i was told when visiting UtarKashi on my way to Badri Kedarnath, here is a nice Siva temple with a huge Trisul in the ground. we had a nice puja done here and the pujari explained to us that in Kali yuga Utar kashi was to be considered as the Joytir Lina due to desecration of Original Vishvanath temple.

I forgot to mention about Jaganath Temple, on the day of Rathyatra off course everyone has a darsan but the biggest opportunity which everyone gets is, when the Rath is resting at Gundicha, everyone is allowed to climb the rath and have closet Darsan of the deities.

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
10 September 2010, 06:01 PM
Pranam EM

Now years ago in another forum this Shiva devotee from US visited the temple, he was not allowed beyond that point, but the following day with familiarity with a pujari and the color off 100 rs note he was allowed in.



Namaskarams Ganeshji: Always interesting stuff. I find the R100 bit interesting especially. You see, I would have gladly given R100 just to have a priest serve as a guide, and not considered it a 'bribe' as I believe you insinuated. I doubt that I will ever figure out the difference between legitimate dakshina and bribe. My guide at Rameswaram was R1000 and for what I got, I thought it was a steal of a deal. One of my Indian friends here in Canada goes to Swamimalai when he returns to the Motherland as his special temple and gets homam, abhishekham, any other Brahmin sacraments due, and he pays R4000 without batting an eyelid. My wife and I will be paying R2000 to help pull the golden chariot at Palani this year. So when it comes to saying thank you or tipping or payment, I am an absolute mumbling bumbling fumbling fool. I probably either overpay or underpay, but I have little experience to go on, so I just see it all as 'in good fun'. I thought I underpaid the tonsuring barber at Palani last time (R50 at no set price, pay what you 'feel' is right) so this time if I get the same guy I'll make up for it. The key for me is affectionate detachment.

This is off topic for the Op. Maybe Ill start a new thread if anyone else contributes.

Aum Namasivaya

Ashvati
11 September 2010, 11:59 AM
I forget the name of it, but I have read of a temple in south india known to supposedly be the only temple dedicated soley to Nataraj, does anyone know if that temple bars westerners? I can try to find out the name of it if need be.

Eastern Mind
11 September 2010, 01:42 PM
Vannakkam Ashvati:

The temple is Chidambaram, and as far as I know it doesn't ban non-Hindus. I had no problem there, but my guide was my friend originally from here, and he knows the priests well. I also look the part of a Hindu while on pilgrimage. (other than the obvious) So 99% sure it would be open to all.

Aum Namasivaya

Riverwolf
11 September 2010, 01:49 PM
What about the Temples in Ayodhya? Would those be open to Westerners?

Ashvati
12 September 2010, 06:22 AM
Vannakkam Ashvati:

The temple is Chidambaram, and as far as I know it doesn't ban non-Hindus. I had no problem there, but my guide was my friend originally from here, and he knows the priests well. I also look the part of a Hindu while on pilgrimage. (other than the obvious) So 99% sure it would be open to all.

Aum Namasivaya

Good, its on my list of places to visit on a pilgrimage. I'd be crushed to go through all the trouble of going on a pilgrimage only to discover that I can't get past the front door of one of my major destinations because of being a "whindu". Do you have any pictures from there or did they not allow them to be taken?

Eastern Mind
12 September 2010, 07:00 AM
Good, its on my list of places to visit on a pilgrimage. I'd be crushed to go through all the trouble of going on a pilgrimage only to discover that I can't get past the front door of one of my major destinations because of being a "whindu". Do you have any pictures from there or did they not allow them to be taken?

Vannakkam Ashvati: I'm not the picture kind of guy, but most of the larger temples have their own websites. Just browse on line. If you ever go, let me know. I'm sure my friend would host you there. He's retired and walks over to temple 4 or 5 days a week.

Watching this will give you a sense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW-qrBQABD0

Aum Namasivaya

Kristina
12 September 2010, 12:50 PM
Hare Krishna, when I was in Puri, I tried to enter Jagannatha Temple with other western devotees, but guards stopped us, though we were in saris. So I think for western people Jagannatha Temple is closed in any case :-(

sm78
12 October 2010, 02:07 AM
Hare Krishna, when I was in Puri, I tried to enter Jagannatha Temple with other western devotees, but guards stopped us, though we were in saris. So I think for western people Jagannatha Temple is closed in any case :-(

All temples which have strong smarta alliance in their theology will do this. These days many temples though technically smarta may not implement this except for places this discriminatory practice have continued for milliniums without any change, eg the Jagannath temple of puri.

Other may have "Only Hindus are allowed inside the temple" board outside the temple, but the definition is left fuzzy and most poeople are allowed inside.

This is a shame because, the entire concept of temple worship is not of smarta orgin but of agamic origin. Yet following adi shankara it is the smarta who contol the temples.

TatTvamAsi
12 October 2010, 02:23 AM
This is a shame because, the entire concept of temple worship is not of smarta orgin but of agamic origin. Yet following adi shankara it is the smarta who contol the temples.

Can you please back up your statement above? It seems like you have disdain for Adi Sankara. Why?

And who said "Smartas control the temples"? The Chidambaram Temple in Tamil Nadu is Iyengar (VisiStadvaita) and they too are very orthodox; I'm not sure if they bar non-Hindus from entering however.

Of all the temples, the Guruvayoor Temple in Kerala is definitely Smarta and is very orthodox; something very good IMO (:D).

Smartas, rather than Vaishnavites and Shaivites, have actually been far more inclusive philosophically speaking. I am aware that many south Indian Smartas are very orthodox and are quite particular about cleanliness and so they don't want mlecchas to be allowed inside temples.

I'm curious as to why you say, "Smartas control temples". It would be certainly nice if they did so that all temples can be orthodox and make sure only the most devoted are allowed inside! ;) Yet, this is certainly not the case.

Adhvagat
12 October 2010, 11:21 AM
What can we do besides sitting outside the temple and sulk?

I think we are very bad people for not being born in India, eh!

:)

ScottMalaysia
12 October 2010, 03:44 PM
What can we do besides sitting outside the temple and sulk?

I think we are very bad people for not being born in India, eh!

If you undergo a formal Hindu name-giving ceremony (namakarana samskara) and change your name (first and last) legally to a Hindu name, then many temples that only allow Hindus to enter will allow you in when you show them your passport and namakarana samskara certificate.

Eastern Mind
14 October 2010, 07:43 AM
The Chidambaram Temple in Tamil Nadu is Iyengar (VisiStadvaita) and they too are very orthodox; I'm not sure if they bar non-Hindus from entering however.


Vannakkam TTA: Chidambaram is controlled by the Deekshidars (or maybe the government now, s the debate rages on) , and I am not sure if they are a subsect of Iyengars. I also do not know of any barring. My entrance was easy as I was with a friend who knows many deekshidars and I am Hindu. Certainly I saw no signs anywhere. I did hear another mystical take on the reason for no photography the other day, and that is that the flash hurts the eyes of the murthy, whom many believe is looking out at us, just as we a re looking in.

Aum Namasivaya

naga
14 October 2010, 11:00 PM
Hallo all Stephen knapp has done considerable research on this worth a read. http://www.stephen-knapp.com/opening_vedic_temples_to_everyone.htm
My believe is as long as the person is respectful and appropriately dressed....the Vedas are for anyone.

rcscwc
22 October 2010, 07:58 AM
What can we do besides sitting outside the temple and sulk?

I think we are very bad people for not being born in India, eh!

:)
You are not bad being born outside India. It is the times that are bad. So many "aliens" come to temples, some of them just are not aware that they too should be respectful. In fact many such people come with an agenda of being disrespectful.

Believer
23 October 2010, 09:56 PM
Hare Krishna, when I was in Puri, I tried to enter Jagannatha Temple with other western devotees, but guards stopped us, though we were in saris. So I think for western people Jagannatha Temple is closed in any case :-(

You appear to be an ISKCON devotee, and you could have found that out through the grapevine, even before you got there. Even Praphupad was not allowed to take his devotees there, and from then on he did not have many kind words about the management. Indira Gandhi, the prime minister on India was not allowed to enter the temple after she married a parsi. I am not going to judge them, but they certainly have rules which are applied uniformly. In the US, Mormon temples (churches) are off-limits to non-Mormons. While visiting Salt Lake City, I was content to see their geneology library and the concert hall.

I just wish that the Indian temple websites would state their policies clearly and boldly, so that no one would travel long distances only to see the welcome mat getting rolled up as they approach the front entrance.

ScottMalaysia
24 October 2010, 09:10 AM
You appear to be an ISKCON devotee, and you could have found that out through the grapevine, even before you got there. Even Praphupad was not allowed to take his devotees there, and from then on he did not have many kind words about the management. Indira Gandhi, the prime minister on India was not allowed to enter the temple after she married a parsi. I am not going to judge them, but they certainly have rules which are applied uniformly.

So they wouldn't let a Westerner in with a conversion certificate and a passport with a Hindu name? That is pathetic. And marrying a Parsi doesn't make you not a Hindu.

It's ironic that they won't let Western Hindus in but they would let an Indian Muslim or Christian in, since they would look just like the Indian Hindus (unless they're wearing a cross or a kufi).

The way I see it, the only way that a Westerner could get in would be to have cosmetic surgery to darken his skin colour to look Indian (kind of the opposite of what Michael Jackson did).




In the US, Mormon temples (churches) are off-limits to non-Mormons. While visiting Salt Lake City, I was content to see their geneology library and the concert hall.

Mormon temples and churches are not the same thing. Churches are where congregations meet on Sundays to sing hymns and listen to a sermon. Anyone is welcome to attend a Mormon church service (I myself have been to one). Temples, on the other hand, are restricted to Mormons of good conduct who have a letter of recommendation from their bishop. Temple rites are secretive and based on Freemasonic rites (Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was a Freemason). Mormons have to wear special underwear to visit a temple. A Temple Marriage is necessary in Mormonism if the husband wants to become a God and rule his own world with his "spirit wife" whose job it is to produce "spirit babies" who go down and inhabit bodies in this world (this is what Mormonism teaches will happen to those who are exceptionally good in this life).


I just wish that the Indian temple websites would state their policies clearly and boldly, so that no one would travel long distances only to see the welcome mat getting rolled up as they approach the front entrance.

For a start, not all temples have websites. Secondly, many Indians have never heard of Westerners (or indeed any other races) converting to Hinduism and keeping non-Indians out of a temple may be to stop the temple, a holy site, from becoming a tourist attraction. Possibly the thought that a Westerner might follow the Hindu religion and wish to pray at a holy site has never occurred to them, so they wouldn't list it on a website.

Believer
25 October 2010, 06:20 AM
The way I see it, the only way that a Westerner could get in would be to have cosmetic surgery to darken his skin colour to look Indian (kind of the opposite of what Michael Jackson did).
And the rest of your life, you would be singing, "Am I black or white?" - just like the legend. ;)



Secondly, many Indians have never heard of Westerners (or indeed any other races) converting to Hinduism and keeping non-Indians out of a temple may be to stop the temple, a holy site, from becoming a tourist attraction. Possibly the thought that a Westerner might follow the Hindu religion and wish to pray at a holy site has never occurred to them, so they wouldn't list it on a website.

This small scale conversion of people of European extraction is a recent phenomenon, and yes, they haven't caught up with this fact yet.

As an aside, PM Tony Blair's sis-in-law just declared her conversion to Islam - Yikes!
-

naga
25 October 2010, 08:36 AM
Over the last 20 years as a westerner I have been to many temples and participated in countless pujas. In India I usually wear the dhoti, have vibhuti on my forehead, I have not had a name change as feel its not yet neccesary.
If a temple devotee doesn't allow me in, in its their karma, I simply go to another. Shiva, Krishna, Jesus is everywhere remember. In villages I found its the opposite they are welcoming and sometimes invite me to the front altar. I had one devotee at a temple in Chennai who asked me to leave, but the priest was welcoming and had already offered me the vibuthi, milk, kumkum etc.
So if anyone is refused and challenged I would let them know that the Vedas are for everyone, they usually don't argue with that. The Vedic path has to spread without any restrictions.
I can see why they refuse some westerners as often they are culturely insensitive, and wouldn't understand the deeper meaning of the puja ceremony.

Eastern Mind
25 October 2010, 08:40 AM
This small scale conversion of people of European extraction is a recent phenomenon, and yes, they haven't caught up with this fact yet.

-

Vannakkam: Just yesterday my wife and I were discussing the number of whites we came across on pilgrimage in India. On my two week pilgrimage about two years back, within the temples I saw a few, but not many:

Palani: One guy in a temple stall that appeared to be working and living there.
Madurai: two tourists taking pictures in the thousand pillared hall
Tiruchendur: None, nada, no English even except for one Indian Tamil chap who approached me for some conversation.
Rameswaram: One European Vaishnava 'convert' who I saw in the hotel, and later doing the wells. Two very western camera toters back at the hotel.
Trich: one camera toter at the Uchi Pillaiyar shrine
Tanjore: Two french tourists getting the guided architectural tour.
Chidambaram: Two quite western women in the hotel in the elevator.
Tiruvanamalai: A couple getting ayurveda at the hotel.
Bangalore: Nada, Zilch, except at the airport.

So it is still rare I believe. We were discussing it about Haridwar, where we will be next January. She thought there would be more, but my feeling was there would still be very few, probably none wishing to do what we will be doing, but probably more in and about doing the yoga ashram thing, but none doing "Let's find a Shiva temple and go for a dip." thing we will be doing.

In TN we can play the game of "What do you see more of, Europeans, or men without mustaches again?" Hard to spot.

Aum Namasivaya

Maya3
27 October 2010, 09:45 PM
It's possible that India have had some issues with tourists and Missionaries that have been disrespectful while visiting a temple, at least I assume that may be a reason that they haven't let westerners into a temple?
There really has to be another way to make sure that people follow the rules of the temple, how about handing out a flyer to people before people enter?

Frankly I would be insulted if someone asked me to show proof of conversion before I entered a temple.
I think that it's time for everyone to understand that Hindu's come from everywhere, we live in a global world and people don't live in neat little boxes anymore.

God does not require anyone to convert to anything, Hindu's especially know this.

Maya

sm78
28 October 2010, 02:01 AM
Can you please back up your statement above? It seems like you have disdain for Adi Sankara. Why?

And who said "Smartas control the temples"? The Chidambaram Temple in Tamil Nadu is Iyengar (VisiStadvaita) and they too are very orthodox; I'm not sure if they bar non-Hindus from entering however.

Of all the temples, the Guruvayoor Temple in Kerala is definitely Smarta and is very orthodox; something very good IMO (:D).

Smartas, rather than Vaishnavites and Shaivites, have actually been far more inclusive philosophically speaking. I am aware that many south Indian Smartas are very orthodox and are quite particular about cleanliness and so they don't want mlecchas to be allowed inside temples.

I'm curious as to why you say, "Smartas control temples". It would be certainly nice if they did so that all temples can be orthodox and make sure only the most devoted are allowed inside! ;) Yet, this is certainly not the case.

I speak from my experience of living in India all my life and having been in many temples all accross India. The term smarta is not much strict these days, but roughly what I mean is the preists have alliance with one of the 4 maths and shankara. True smartas who follow some obscure smriti to the word are rare and only found in pockets of kerala perhaves, ironically sarrounded by mlecchas with the worst behaviours ruling that land. In rest of south india - its more "shanakara is god" type of notion what makes someone a smarta, in the rest of india its even more vague ... but alliance to shankara philosophy and the mathas is present at some level.

Yes in south india other temple traditions are also prominent, namely the vaishnava (both the ramanuja and madhva sects, later particularly strong it seems karnataka) and some saiva (siddhantika) temples. And it is true that some of these sects are more orthodox and rigid about some smartic rules than those who call themselves smarta.

Rest its smarta in the sense that alliance is with one of the 4 mathas, directly or indirectly - and historically goes back to sankara vijayams.

Neo-advatins are all inclusive no dobt, a bit over inclusive infact, they will include any body as long as it adds to their satsangs.

I do not have contempt for adi shankaracharya, I simply find the philosophy flawed and deductions from there-in (like neo-advaita and universalism) not just flawed but dangerous. On contrary, I greatly admire his work of uniting diverse sects under one sanatana dharma yet leaving their practices intact. But his dig-viajayams over hyped, and protrayal of his hand in everything hindu following his arrival is a bit zealous on the part of his followers. All this has more to do with his followers than shankara himself.

Regarding the more deeper point on the "good thing" about "orthodoxy", I simply have a different view point about it (just like validity of sankara philosophy, but this point is more serious since it directly effects how people choose to live and behave with others) - but l don't believe either of us would agree to any point of the other. Plus I don't enjoy arguments via typing - so like in the other thread I just put my point and don't see the need to argue about it much here.

Eastern Mind
28 October 2010, 07:33 AM
Over the last 20 years as a westerner I have been to many temples and participated in countless pujas. In India I usually wear the dhoti, have vibhuti on my forehead, I have not had a name change as feel its not yet neccesary.
If a temple devotee doesn't allow me in, in its their karma, I simply go to another. Shiva, Krishna, Jesus is everywhere remember. In villages I found its the opposite they are welcoming and sometimes invite me to the front altar. I had one devotee at a temple in Chennai who asked me to leave, but the priest was welcoming and had already offered me the vibuthi, milk, kumkum etc.
So if anyone is refused and challenged I would let them know that the Vedas are for everyone, they usually don't argue with that. The Vedic path has to spread without any restrictions.
I can see why they refuse some westerners as often they are culturely insensitive, and wouldn't understand the deeper meaning of the puja ceremony.

Vannakkam naga:
These are my sentiments and experiences as well, although I haven't been there as much as you. I wouldn't argue, though. For one, i don't speak the language. But vibhuthi and veshti certainly help.

Aum Namasivaya

rcscwc
02 January 2011, 05:14 AM
It's possible that India have had some issues with tourists and Missionaries that have been disrespectful while visiting a temple, at least I assume that may be a reason that they haven't let westerners into a temple?
There really has to be another way to make sure that people follow the rules of the temple, how about handing out a flyer to people before people enter?

Frankly I would be insulted if someone asked me to show proof of conversion before I entered a temple.
I think that it's time for everyone to understand that Hindu's come from everywhere, we live in a global world and people don't live in neat little boxes anymore.

God does not require anyone to convert to anything, Hindu's especially know this.

Maya

Have you heard of a TERM JUGGERNAUGHT? It means.. heck, I will its meaning from dictionary.com.

Jug·ger·naut


–noun 1. ( often lowercase http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) any large, overpowering, destructive force or object, as war, a giant battleship, or a powerful football (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/football) team.
2. ( often lowercase http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) anything requiring blind devotion or cruel sacrifice.
3. Also called Jagannath. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Jagannath) an idol of Krishna, at Puri in Orissa, India, annually drawn on an enormous cart under whose wheels devotees are said to have thrown themselves to be crushed.



Use juggernaut in a Sentence (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=Use+juggernaut+in+a+Sentence&qsrc=2892&o=101993)


See images of juggernaut (http://ask.reference.com/pictures?q=juggernaut&o=102285)

Just see. Which one best describes Lord Jagannath?


Search juggernaut on the Web (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=juggernaut&o=102284)

Origin:
1630–40; < Hindi Jagannāth < Skt Jagannātha lord of the world (i.e., the god Vishnu or Krishna), equiv. to jagat world + nātha lord


Are you happy that Rath of Lord Jagannath is called a juggernaught, even today? A few months ago I saw a news headline in Times of India: Juggernaghut rolls out today. It reported Rath Yatra of Lord Jagannath. Many from west come to see it, and write how many threw themselves under the wheels. Of course, they go back disappointed. Maybe net year it will happen. So, a reurn net year too.

An average westrener thinks the image "hideous".

First muslim travellers condemned Hindu temple, but described how much gold they had. Later, muslim invaders like Ghazni plundered them.

Xian notice I have given above.

My question : How do I know that that American is really a Hindu and not a xian dressed like a Hindu?

rcscwc
02 January 2011, 05:20 AM
Over the last 20 years as a westerner I have been to many temples and participated in countless pujas. In India I usually wear the dhoti, have vibhuti on my forehead, I have not had a name change as feel its not yet neccesary.
If a temple devotee doesn't allow me in, in its their karma, I simply go to another. Shiva, Krishna, Jesus is everywhere remember. In villages I found its the opposite they are welcoming and sometimes invite me to the front altar. I had one devotee at a temple in Chennai who asked me to leave, but the priest was welcoming and had already offered me the vibuthi, milk, kumkum etc.
So if anyone is refused and challenged I would let them know that the Vedas are for everyone, they usually don't argue with that. The Vedic path has to spread without any restrictions.
I can see why they refuse some westerners as often they are culturely insensitive, and wouldn't understand the deeper meaning of the puja ceremony.
Please beat your Jesus drum 200 yards from my temples, as the law says.

Sahasranama
02 January 2011, 06:03 AM
My question : How do I know that that American is really a Hindu and not a xian dressed like a Hindu?This is a good question. In Hinduism the mother is the first guru. Westerners didn't have a Hindu mother, their mother was Christian, atheist or something else. The impression made by the mother during childhood will last for a lifetime, unless it is thoroughly cleansed out. Therefore, a lot of western Hindus still have Christian or atheist sanskara, even if they have the best of intentions.

NayaSurya
02 January 2011, 09:51 AM
My question : How do I know that that American is really a Hindu and not a xian dressed like a Hindu?


You will know them by actions and words. As you would any person of any color or nationality. No color is immune from this deceit you mention.

Brown, yellow and red have become Christian. Just as the one recently exposed on the forum...they are probably more a danger to you than the american hindu converts because you don't trust us to begin with...and your own converted brothers come as wolves dressed in the veil of an innocent sheep.

You will know us by actions. When, upon seeing Beloved Jagannatha, that we fall to our knees...knowing that image to be truly Divine. Jaya Jagannatha<3

Jaya Jaya Jagannatha<3

Sahasranama, what you have said makes sense. You make me greatful for this wretched upbringing I suffered by both my parent's hands. It gave me a far better ability to turn aside all of that nonsense and move forward towards SD, the Beloved Truth.

Sahasranama
02 January 2011, 10:00 AM
Sahasranama, what you have said makes sense. You make me greatful for this wretched upbringing I suffered by both my parent's hands. It gave me a far better ability to turn aside all of that nonsense and move forward towards SD, the Beloved Truth.Hi, I hope my comment didn't come across as insensitive. I didn't mean that a western upbringing is wretched, but it is missing something. There are always people who are born in a Hindu family and turn away from it and people who are born in western families who are drawn towards Hinduism, like you say.

NayaSurya
02 January 2011, 10:14 AM
Hugs<3

You were not insensitive at all. I was only speaking of my own upbringing as it was wretched, and because of this abuse...I do feel it caused a severe detachment from these beings responsible. Later in their lives, they tried to make it up. But, as you said...what you are taught from that first guru makes a big impression. I could never truly trust them on such matters when their actions completely went against those words.

Believer
02 January 2011, 12:17 PM
My ramblings on a lazy Sunday morning.....

Many Western Hindus are more Hindu in their practices than the average Hindu in India. And many others latch on to some aspect of it by doing yoga or joining an asharam or taking up a guru who does not require them to forgo their current belief system. For the later kind, the deviation from their faith is only to improve their physical fitness or buying some peace of mind. The Indian temple priests have no way of differentiating between the two types. They are just trying to protect their sacred temples from becoming tourist attractions. I can understand that it would be frustrating and insulting for a 'real' Western devotee to be denied entry into a temple in India. But forcing your entry into one by claiming that 'Vedas are for everyone' is, in my judgement, not the answer. If one temple is not welcoming, move on to the next one. As in 'real life', we work around the problems we face. I cannot go around in my everyday life in the US, constantly beating the 'all men are created equal' drum, to get what I want. I work around the real and perceived problems to get as much as I can of what I want and be happy with that. Heck Hindus, who have been labeled by Islam and 'the Osama' as their sworn enemies, are not totally immune from suspicion. Even the female Indian ambassador had to go through the touchy-feeley groping by the TSA men, in full view of all. Why do people get so upset when they are merely denied entry into a temple. If your aim is to worship the Lord, why does it have to be in a specific temple? Just work around the issue instead of making a big 'stink' about it.

One incident that comes to mind is the ISKCON founder trying to visit the Jagannath temple in Puri in the company of his Western followers. The Western followers were denied entry and everyone was offended. After his disappearance, many of the 'converted' followers left ISKCON and went back to their original faith, proving that not every devotee who came with Prabhupad was sincere in his devotion to Vaishvanism. Another example is that after she married a 'parsi', Indira Gandhi was not allowed into that temple. In my earlier post about this story, one of the forum members objected claiming that even after marrying a 'parsi', she was still a Hindu and should have been allowed in. Cultural differences put people at a disadvantage in understanding things. In India, a woman follows the religion of her husband. By marrying a 'parsi', she ceased to be a Hindu. Her son in turn got himself an Italian Catholic bride, whose children follow Roman Catholicism. Hindu values had no consideration, no respect, no significance to these 'mallechas'. So why should they be allowed to visit the Jagannath temple - one of the most sacred Hindu temples? If the temple priests err on the side of caution, it is for a reason, not out of whim.

In the final analysis, all shades of Hindus have to come together and resolve the differences and issues facing them as a family. I know that being sidelined because of one's color is not the right thing to do, and I wish something could be worked out to be inclusive and to let the Western devotees have a darshan of His Lordship in every Indian temple. But the age old traditions would require some cataclysmic events to make them change. Until that happens, it is, what it is. No need to get mad. If the focus is on spiritual advancement; then not being able to visit a temple is just a pebble on the road, to be sidestepped in the course of your journey. If the pebble becomes 'THE' problem, then the journey itself is flawed!
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dharma66
09 January 2011, 11:31 AM
A most excellent post, Believer.

BryonMorrigan
10 January 2011, 09:01 AM
This is a good question. In Hinduism the mother is the first guru. Westerners didn't have a Hindu mother, their mother was Christian, atheist or something else. The impression made by the mother during childhood will last for a lifetime, unless it is thoroughly cleansed out. Therefore, a lot of western Hindus still have Christian or atheist sanskara, even if they have the best of intentions.


I guess I have a Druid sanskara then...since my mother is a Druid. :D

However, I personally would never try to "force" my attendance at any temple. I don't want to go anywhere that I am not welcome. To me, the "unwelcomeness" would be far too much of a "negative" or "impure" feeling...and I would not want to cause such things in a temple by my presence.

Eastern Mind
16 January 2011, 02:45 AM
Vannakkam all: Here is an update on the Madurai Meenakshi temple. They have changed their policy. They no longer have security posted at the spot where they have the sign "Only Hindus Beyond this Point' so anyone can walk right in. You might have to look like a Hindu by dress maybe. I'm not sure. However, there is still light security inside the premises and a metal detector check at all entrance ways. Besides that, ALL foreigners have to pay R50 (nominal) just to get in for the camera and gawking/hawking stuff. But once again, the only way this can be applied easily is by skin colour. A Hindu resident of USA for example could easily slip right in.

I also met a Christian archeologist and I asked him about going in to look around in his field. He told me that when he does that, he just lies about his name and changes it to Hari from David. In other words, if he's with someone, he gets them to call him Hari in case some security or temple official might here him. So name is important, but I would think that would be more true in India with Indian itself. Certainly, any Indian who has a Christian name is likely to be Christian. Here in the west it is different.

Aum Namasivaya