PDA

View Full Version : professional begging....



yajvan
12 September 2010, 07:48 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Do you have an opinion on this matter ?

Around the world there are professional beggars . Beggars in general may be called bhīśūkā ¹ ( the alarm or fight of sorrow or pity).
At times too the 'professional beggar ' is considered a caura ( sometimes spelled cora) - dis-honest, a thief.


Professional beggars called-out in the mahābhārata are considered a burden on society and disdainful. Yet what is one to do?
If one chooses a rightful path, compassion and empathy, let alone charity is a common practice. How does one view the professional beggar?

How can you tell the 'professional' from the spiritual mendicant?

You give to a person you see asking on the street thinking it is right. You come back two weeks later, the person is in the same place, same sign ( or no sign), same clothing, doing the exact same thing.
What are your actions, what is your thinking? Are there lessons here?

Any ideas or insights on how or if you encountered this?

praṇām

words

bhīśūkā = bhī+śūkā = fright, alarm, dread + pity, sorrow, grief

Eastern Mind
12 September 2010, 08:29 PM
Vannakkam Yajvan: Interesting topics you come up with. Firstly, I personally would never give to a professional beggar ---- if I knew it. The problem is you don't know it. Very hard to determine. There are valid horror stories as well. Even here it is hard to determine the real panhandler from the lazy man. Even one who fakes a disability or simply lives off charity of society (welfare) could be called a sponge. (caura)

Of course on pilgrimage in India we encounter them all the time, legitimate and professional. I remember a couple of very aggressive ones. Once was when we stopped to get state line permission to cross, and another was at Tiruchendur temple. I would rather give to a person who I can see as being poor than one who is begging, and I did. At Dhanushkodi late one night on the beach I gave a larger chunk to a lady and daughter whose home was a thatch. Who knows what may have happened. I asked it to go for educational supplies for the girl.

Then again, but for the grace of God go I.

What are your personal thoughts?

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
12 September 2010, 10:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté EM,



What are your personal thoughts?

I have chosen to fault on the side of giving. My thoughts on this matter is even if I am wrong, the intent of giving is in the right direction.
No-one likes to be duped. That is, giving where giving was not warranted or done under false pretense. Yet who bears the sin? Me or the caura ?

In India I did the best that I could in giving. In America I also see the same people on the street asking again and again for money. I chose to give again and again. But way so? The one's that asked where challenged with physical aliments - so my mind said this sani ( giving ) is for the one that walks with a limp , śani (saturn) .

As of late I viewed a professional beggar . On occasion I viewed him getting mad at either not receiving his due , or a bit ruffled for not getting enough as a donation. To this I only viewed him and forced my mind not to think ill thoughts of this man.

In the past I have done this - had negative thoughts of the one that was asking for money. I turned myself around and went back and gave the person money. What was the lesson? I wished to teach the ego that it does not make the decisions. I prefer the heart or the intellect to do this not the ego , with stored vāsanā's that began to bubble up.

So, the question is, are my thoughts folly? Did I help the person or myself? I do not know, yet I faulted on the side of giving.

This is the pickle - the more one gives to the professional beggar the more that behavior is re-enforced with that person to continue the same actions. Are we helping that person ? Or are we just trying to feel good ( again the ego is a hand) and think we are doing something right? I am still sorting it out.

Perhaps others have a view on this matter....


praṇām

words
vāsanā - the present consciousness of past perceptions , knowledge derived from memory; some say impressions of anything remaining unconsciously in the mind ;

Eastern Mind
13 September 2010, 07:40 AM
I am still sorting it out.


Vannakkam: Me too. I go by gut (heart) but as I get older I tend to give more to charities and temples. Regarding temples, my view (and I've had this discussion many many times) is that a beautiful temple will soften everyone's heart who attends, and that will make them more charitable, kind to family, etc. so it is beneficial indirect charity.

The 'best' experience I had where I learned the most was here in Edmonton. I was in a downtown mall riding down an escalator when a woman about my age (nothing about her said she was homeless) just turned to me and said, "So are you going to buy me lunch?" Taken aback, I said "sure" and for the next hour I heard and discussed how someone falls through the cracks, (alcoholism with her) but can still live on the street ... the daily rounds of eating, how to stay clean etc.

Right now there is a tent in the ravine beside our temple on temple property. I have chosen to leave it alone for now, as my own secret. If the cold comes, I may ask the police to go take a look.

In India, I have been told that some people purposely maim their children for better begging opportunities. That makes me sad, yet I do my best to observe onlt (affectionate detachment) .

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
13 September 2010, 11:21 AM
I'm not sure if there's a tried and true way to distinguish the professional beggar from the person who really is poor. Obviously I wouldn't give to someone who I knew was a professional. But I've read many stories of Shirdi Sai Baba coming to people in his village in unlikely and unexpected forms, and later chiding them when they failed to give anything to him. The Sathu in the Satyanarayana Katha made a similar mistake. As such, I think it's a good policy to give something to beggars unless I have a good reason to do otherwise.

Onkara
13 September 2010, 12:43 PM
Namasté
There was a TV documentary where they put 4 celebrities onto a street for 14 nights with nothing more than a sleeping bag and warm clothes. Accompanied by a guy who lurked on the other side of the street with a camcorder. I was startled to see just how little much money they raised, sometimes less than 10 dollars a day if lucky. I had had the assumption that begging wasn't too bad.

What was interesting to see was the community of people who also living on the street, would guide them to the best locations to find food which had been discarded. They also told them never to zip up the sleeping bag as it was known that people would set them on fire or pour liquid on them and they would not be able to get out of the sleeping bag quickly if zipped to the neck.





The 'best' experience I had where I learned the most was here in Edmonton. I was in a downtown mall riding down an escalator when a woman about my age (nothing about her said she was homeless) just turned to me and said, "So are you going to buy me lunch?" Taken aback, I said "sure" and for the next hour I heard and discussed how someone falls through the cracks, (alcoholism with her) but can still live on the street ... the daily rounds of eating, how to stay clean etc.

Sounds like the cost of having a friendly face! :)

Ashvati
14 September 2010, 01:36 PM
I've been told the best way to be sure that a beggar doesn't spend your donation on an addiction is to give them food rather than money. The problem with this however is that if the person genuinely plans to use the money in ways to get out of their situation, like on a reasonably nice suit to wear to a job interview, then they can't do that with food. You're only helping them to survive but not to be any better off. Its a band-aid solution. On the other hand, a beggar with an addiction is likely to use the money you give on said addiction, or they might just be lazy sponges. So when you give money to a beggar, you have to either take the risk of being duped and having your money go no where so there can be a small chance it'll actually help someone out of their situation, or you have to be like the rich in America tend to be by giving the poor a band-aid solution that makes you feel better but really doesn't help anyone to improve their lives and lets a rich person still be "better than them".

Simply because this topic brought it to my mind, let me tell you all of one particular begger I saw in Cambridge, MA while visiting my favorite uncle. This begger was a young man, no older than 30, more likely in his mid to late twenties, holding a sign that said "Money for weed, a basic human need" with a little drawing of a pot leaf. I shook my head in disgust and kept walking. As I passed him he noticed my expression and said, in a pleading tone that sounded almost as if trying to convince himself more than me, "Isn't it?". If there's one thing I'm glad for about potheads in america, its that not enough of them have enough ambition to ever make any serious, concerted effort to legalize it. This country handles alcohol poorly enough as it is.

Hmm. I seem to have wandered into another topic. I Guess its still a relevent point though. I just hope it doesn't derail this thread.

Ashvati
14 September 2010, 01:42 PM
As such, I think it's a good policy to give something to beggars unless I have a good reason to do otherwise.

I don't live in an area with a noticable beggar population, so I haven't encountered the situation all that often, but on the few occasions where I've seen beggars that's pretty much what I've done. I still bare in mind what I said in my last post, but I still find it better to give the benefit of the doubt when possible. At the very least, its still positive karma and there's still a good enough chance you're helping someone, even if its only to help them buy food to live for another day.

Eastern Mind
14 September 2010, 04:05 PM
Vannakkam: I am not sure of how food banks operate in the US, but it is one of my favorite charities here, because you drastically increase your chances of actually giving to those in need. Once upon a time my wife and I decided to sign up to volunteer. Here are some interesting things I learned.

About 90% of the food is redistributed to other agencies such as:

Meals on Wheels for the people still in their own homes who are unable to afford or even make their own food,

Homeless Shelters

Church or other religious Feeding Groups

A few Inner city schools with Lunch Programs

I had been under the wrong impression that all of the food goes to people who just walked in, but it just wasn't so. The food bank has a committee that assesses need so these guys who work in the area all the time have far more expertise tan me.

Besides regularly donating a bit each time we go shopping, I also took 11 bags full of fresh veggies from the temple garden downtown this year. The guy who is saving for a suit still needs to eat. Even in India I've heard of buying fruit to give instead of rupees. In Dominican we gave pencils.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
14 September 2010, 08:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

From the mahābhārata , aṇusāsana parvan (section LXI or 111).

Those persons the solicit others are said to annoy the world like thieves and robbers¹ (caura).
The person who solicits is said to meet with death. The giver does not meet with death.
The giver is said to grant life unto him who solicits. By the act of gift yudhiṣṭhira ( says bhīṣma-ji )
the giver is said to rescue his own self also. Let people make gifts from compassion unto those that solicit.

praṇām

words
caura ( sometimes spelled cora) - dis-honest, a thief.

NayaSurya
14 September 2010, 10:02 PM
A friend posted this tonight and I thought of your post.




597

Henk
30 September 2010, 04:08 PM
Namaste

Last year i was driving in my car from belgium to holland, when i entered the driveway that leads to the highway there was a man standing there, with his car at the side of the road. Im wanted to help him becouse his eyes told me he was in trouble. he came to and asked me if i had money for feul for his car, so i looked in my wallet and wanted to give him the 10 euro i had with me. then he started to explain that he was a business man from germany and he needed more money to get home. i looked at his car and there was a lady and a child in it, then he started removing gold from his neck and fingers and put it in my hands, he told me it was his family gold and if i would "lend" him more money he would pick up the gold the next day. i told him several times i didnt want his gold, and i would help him without accepting his family gold. befor i knew it he was in my car kissing my hands and telling me how gratefull he was, we went to a bank and i gave him 200euro. when i gave him the money he was gone .. he gave me a business card from "his company" so i could call him. when i came home i searched the internet and came on a site where many ppl left messages that the same happened to them and never saw the guy again. the gold he gave me was fake (ofcource).

I think it was a lesson i had to learn in life ... i hate the idea, and i cant imagine how someone can do such a thing without remorse.

The next time i wont stop anymore, When it happened to me i read stories about cars being stolen that way ... they come sit beside you, pull a knife on you, and tell you to get out of the car :(

I hate the fact that it "stops" me from helping someone who is really in need of help.

Eastern Mind
30 September 2010, 05:10 PM
Vannakkam Henk:

Yes, I too gave bus fare of about $40 or so to a lieing sneak one time. I think all of us who care at all fall at one time or another to this hard lesson. Yours was more expensive than mine, but the karma got passed. What is no longer yours is now his. Such events, when upheld philosophically with the concept of karma, are much easier to take. Ahh.. life, the great experience.

So are there Hindu temples in your area you could go visit?

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
30 September 2010, 06:51 PM
I can not speak of the good things I have done as these things are for Shiva alone.

But, one time the lesson was all mine.

I allowed two older transients to move in with my family and they sat for months eating our food and refused to find work.

They were addicts on top of everything else. He beat her and the fights were constant. But, through it all I was so concerned that this could be some Karma I was burning...I continued to allow them to suck our savings dry.
They eventually moved on and took another family in this scam. But, the next family contacted me and within about a week of speaking to me I told them the truth of what happened to us. This family was taken for far more money than we were and I felt so badly. But, thankfully this event made these two become so angry with each other that they split up their scam and went home to move back home with their parents across the country...despite being almost double my age.

It's been almost five years since this happened to me...and I am still...very much hurt by it. They used the sort of manipulation that I have a hard time defending myself from.

As the child constantly tried to heal the broken animals she found...these two came into my life broken.

But, you can't fix broken people...they must fix themselves. I thank Shiva for the lesson and pray that I learned it well enough I am never foolish enough to do such a thing again.

Ashvati
30 September 2010, 09:36 PM
Sounds like my brother and his girlfriend. Both addicts, both used us for a place to live free of rent and eat our food for up to two years at a time. My brother recently moved back in only to screw up two weeks later and get kicked out. We had to get the police involved and now we have a no trespassing order against him. I know that not all beggers and other such destitute individuals aren't like him, but its given me a good idea of the lowest kind from firsthand experience.

Henk
01 October 2010, 05:38 AM
So are there Hindu temples in your area you could go visit?

Aum Namasivaya

hmmm yes there is one .. after i saw your question i searched the net and it seems there is one temple 30 minutes from my home.

Eastern Mind
01 October 2010, 11:52 AM
Vannakkam Henk: That's good. Another way besides reading to get the sense of Hinduism is to visit a Hindu temple of course. How to approach such matters is very individualistic in Hinduism.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
04 October 2010, 02:00 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

many of the experiences mentioned above unfortunately turned out to be a bad experience. For this I am saddened. This experience is then registered as a vāsanā¹ within one's consciousness.
For me I have been blessed with good experiences of helping the stranger. I care not to explain as this as it will only fuel the ego.

So the question is, when one has a ~bad~ experience, do you stop completely or try again? Are 'you' part of the equation? That is, are you receiving something you are entitled to receive within this giving of generosity?
Within jyotish the person with rāhu¹ as one's atma-kārakā¹ will have this experience of being taken advantage of. And what is one to do? Being taken advantage of will occur again and again. What debt one has to work off I do not know. One needs to be cautious, yet this is the condtion that rāhu brings.


praṇām

words

vāsanā = impression = saṃskāra or mental impression or recollection , impression on the mind of acts done in a former state of existence . This is one of the 24 qualities of the vaiśeṣikas , including bhāvanā.
rāhu - from the root √ rabh - " the seizer " ;rāhu seizes the sun and moon and thus cause eclipses. He is the natural bādhaka in one's chart.
atma-kārakā - one can find more on this subject in the HDF jyotish file folder.

TatTvamAsi
05 October 2010, 12:15 AM
I got a chuckle out of this thread.

Professional begging is done all the time in the US. You get unsolicited phone-calls for "donations" to various "organizations". These beggars have learned to use the telephone quite well. In India, it is done in person. I think the Indians like to acquaint themselves with their oh-so-generous donors. :D

sunyata07
13 October 2010, 01:10 PM
Interesting thread.

It's sad to see that the donations given with compassion and kindness are often met with deceit and trickery. I can't say I've ever been directly duped into giving money away, but I have been approached upfront for money. Mostly from immigrants (which is still relatively new over here) who are finding it tough to get work, housing, etc. I don't mind giving a few euros here and there, but it's hard to trust anyone anymore even when they approach you with a story about needing fare home.

It is difficult to observe the niyama of dana (giving) without being a fool at the same time and being hustled into handing your money over to a professional con artist. For that reason, I've been more inclined lately to give money to individuals who have been arranged with certain charity organisations to keep whatever money they make off the street selling their monthly magazines. It's then that you can hand them that extra tenner or fiver and know you're giving unreservedly without being tricked into financing their next drug addiction or beer.

Om namah Shivaya

Arjuni
14 October 2010, 11:53 PM
This is indeed an interesting and very relevant (for me) thread.

I come originally from the religious tradition of Haitian Vodou, in which ritual begging is sometimes 'prescribed' as a lesson in humility. Those commanded to perform this action will dress in specific, recognisable clothes and go out begging for a certain period of time. There is also an old folk tradition that one should give to the first three people who ask for help, because any one of those may be Legba in disguise. (He's Ganesha-esque, the first to be prayed to - and known as something of a trickster as well.) This 'first three people' rule is something I used to do, and then I moved here to Canada, and, well...

For three years now, I've lived in the downtown area of a Canadian city, where there are massive problems with poverty and alcoholism/substance abuse. (The latter, so much so that items like mouthwash, cologne, and rubbing alcohol are seen as controlled substances in some shops and kept behind the counter, given for purchase on request only.) It's not uncommon for me to be approached for change, bus tickets, or other help 3-5 times a day, and much of the time, it's the same folks, who frequent the same areas, with the same stories. Sometimes the people who approach me are staggering and slurringly incoherent. I've struggled - and still struggle - trying to understand the right thing to do.

Usually when I say I don't have change or bus tickets, I'm being completely honest - I use cards for all purchases and a monthly bus pass for transportation. But I know that the need of giving isn't something I can slough off by keeping my pockets bare. As an insightful essay I read once pointed out, poverty and trouble aren't fun. No-one (except maybe professional hustlers during those moments of "ha-ha, got you!") enjoys asking a stranger for help, or worrying for food or money, or being in the throes of a powerful addiction or in some other kind of trouble. I'm taking a look at hunger charities in my city to see what I can do; that way, I will be giving needed help, if not directly to the person asking, if that makes sense at all?

Anyone worried about being taken in by scam artists, as opposed to folks really in need, should read this - http://wikitravel.org/en/Common_scams - the one Henk described (and which I and my husband also fell prey to about a year ago) is there under "Car trouble," along with many more.