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atanu
24 October 2006, 07:05 AM
Can anyone teach me about Aswins? They/He seem/seems to be taking hold of me with mystery?


Om

yajvan
24 October 2006, 10:12 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Can anyone teach me about Aswins? They/He seem/seems to be taking hold of me with mystery?
Om


Namaste Atanu Banerjee,

I will be happy to assist the best I can, along with others on this forum. Again, let me say my knowledge is 'one legged' as the rishi's say. I can pass along the little I know, yet I do not 'live' the knowledge as yet. With His grace perhaps in this life.

If any part of my information is blemished, I ask the others more informed to correct me accordingly.

The ashwin’s are most notably known as the divine physicians, yet as you would think there is much more. They are also addressed as madhuman or full of honey and delight.

Who are these Ashvins ? the root is from ash, energy. Go one step down and we also know it is from ashva, or horse, used in the ved as a vehicle and symbol of energy (the mighty steed, yes?).
The Ashvins, sometimes written asvins, in the ved (starting in RV 1.3) as full of capacity for enjoyment and partakers of soma (the delight of existence/actions).
They (asvins) are known for their speed, again from ashva, horses, power, speed. It’s also said they ferry the sadhu (yajamana) across obscurities, with speed.

If we look to RV 1.3.1 it says
Ashvina yajvarir isho dravatpani shubhaspati purubhuja chanasyatam

Note in this mantra, they are addressed as shubhaspati or the guardians of bliss.


This mantra says, Asvins are the executors of yajya and lords of bliss, they are swift in their movements. O abundant enjoyers may you take delight in the energies (of the yajya)

Now, it is my understanding, that yajya is the inner action, sacrifice, that happens within the yajamana ( the sadhu). This is a key to understanding the ved. Yes, there is outer ritual (incense, kumkum, etc) yet for efficacy the inner yajya needs to be considered to bear fruit, inner (Consciousness) and outer, the creative universe we see the expression of consciousness/creative intelligence visible to the sadhu.

It will be key to discuss yajya as the journey – a cooperation of human and deva. This is the secret found in the ved that takes an enlightened kavi/pandit to explain to the sadhu. To this much discussion is warranted. For this we need ketu, or inner understanding. Why do I mention this ? Because the asvins are nasatyas, the leaders of movement ( from nas, to move). To what? Along the path to fullness of Being.
O Asvins, carry us across the darkess (ignorance) RV 1.46.6.

Lets stop there for some discussion…

Pranams,

satay
25 October 2006, 12:36 AM
Can anyone teach me about Aswins? They/He seem/seems to be taking hold of me with mystery?


Om

namaste,
taking hold of you with mystery, what does that mean? sounds so mysterious...

atanu
25 October 2006, 12:53 PM
namaste,
taking hold of you with mystery, what does that mean? sounds so mysterious...

Namaste Satay,

Yes bhai. The english got crooked. But mystery sure there is. I need more inputs from whoever has experience.

Even Rig vedic verses are shrouded in mystery. Rishis call them as mysterious Aswins. Usually other devas do not allow revelation of Aswini tattwa easily. Indra is specificaly prayed to allow Aswins -- the brilliant sons of Rudra to partake of oblations. On the other hand, Vishnu, Varuna and Adityas are said to attend on them. They cemented the marriage of Surya and Soma, whereby Soma is continually purified.

Unlike Adityas, who are very clearly manifest, the Rudras are shrouded in mystery; we do not clearly understand where they are. All Rig Vedic heroes have residence in you or in your consciousness somewhere in some fashion. Help of everyone is required on the way.

Thank You Yajvan Ji for your inputs but I am eager for more. Where are they? Who are they in Puranic equivalent? Who is their mother?

Om Namah Shivayya

Znanna
25 October 2006, 06:54 PM
Can anyone teach me about Aswins? They/He seem/seems to be taking hold of me with mystery?


Om


Namaste,

Could you please explain what Aswins is/are? Perhaps this would provoke additional conversation :)


ZN

sarabhanga
27 October 2006, 08:19 AM
Can anyone teach me about Aswins?

:rolleyes:

Consider the ashvinau, the (two, double, or twin) cavalier(s) or charioteer(s), whose return brings prosperity and gladdens the heart. They are known as the physicians of heaven.

ashvin indicates “possessed of horses, consisting of horses, or mounted on horseback”.

ashvin derives from svan, which indicates “a dog” ~ with the dual shvAnau referring to “the two hounds” (of saramA and yama).

The masculine ashvinI is “a cavalier or horse-tamer”.

The feminine ashvinI is “the wife (later, the mother) of the two ashvinau”, and also the first of the 28 nakSatrANi (i.e. the head of aries).

The dual ashvInA or ashvinau are “the two charioteers” ~ appearing in the sky before the dawn in a golden carriage drawn by horses or birds, bringing treasures to men, and averting misfortune and sickness.

ashvInA indicates “the (number) two” ~ especially the ashvisutau, the two sons of the ashvinau (i.e. nakula and sahadeva).

AkAra belongs to the ashvinau.

yoga is union, which may be seen as total, or as a yoking so as to form a perfect twin.

A yogin is an eternal twin with the sun ~ and a yogin is a veritable yama, one of the very first twins of sanAtana dharma.

yudhiSThira (“firm or steady in battle”) is the eldest of the five reputed “sons of pANDu” ~ although he is really the child of pANDu’s wife by the god dharma or yama, and so he is often called dharmaputra or dharmarAja.

yudhiSThira is the whole tree in all its diversity. The full manifestation of wakeful vaishvAnara. The encompassing rim of the cakra.

bhIma is its several limbs or arms. The radiant fire of taijasa. The powerful spokes of the cakra.

arjuna is its one trunk. The creative foundation of prAjŮa. The driving hub of the cakra.

The ashvinau are the first and the last united, as the first flower and the final fruition ~ both the cause and the result of creative action in one, and together bearing the seed of this transmission. The whole vortex in flight.

United, the twin ashvinau represents the one turiya; and apart, they are prAjŮa (as nakula) and turiya (as sahadeva).

The scions of pANDu are the visible expansions of brahman, which bear glorious flowers and fruits that are the source of the whole cycle of repeated birth and death in saMsAra.

The scions of kRSNa are the invisible expansions of brahman, which penetrate the earth, sustaining and supporting the whole creation, without concern for personal glory and always unaffected by the seasonal changes above.

The eternal seed carried by the ashvinau is the brahma bIja (as the origin of both kRSNa and pANDu).



govinda is the chief of the herd ~ the twin driver who holds the reins and controls all of the above (also known as kRSNa or naranArAyaNa).


I load you two with sacred offerings, repeating an ancient prayer; may the sound (of your approach) reach (the gods) like the path of the worshipper, may all the sons of the immortal (prajApati) who inhabit the celestial regions hear (the sound). [RV:10.13.1]

When you two came, like twins, busily engaged (in the performance of your own duties of moving and bearing the oblation), then devout worshipper brought you forward; knowing your place there abide and be fair storehouses for our soma. [RV:10.13.2]

I make the five stages of the sacrifice (i.e. grain, soma, the kind, the puroDAsha cake, and ghee) ascend; I take four steps by pious observances; with the sacred syllable, I perfect this (adoration); I purify (the soma) on the navel of the sacrifice. [RV 10:13.3]

Whom has he selected as the slayer of the gods? Whom has he not selected as non-slayer of the human race? (i.e. yama ordained that gods should not die, and that men should receive immortality.) They have made the RSi bRhaspati the sacrifice. yama preserves our loved bodies. [RV:10.13.4]

The seven (metres) offer laudation to the glorious, the adorable parent (the soma), his sons (the priests) utter his true (praise); you both are lords of both (men and gods), you both exert yourselves and are the nourishers of both (men and gods). [RV:10.13.5]


Worship with oblations from yama, king (of the pitaras), son of vivasvat, the aggregation of mankind, who conducts those who are virtuous over the earth, and opens to many the path (of heaven). [RV:10.14.1]

yama, the chief (of all), knows our well-being; this pasture no one can take from us; by the road by which our forefathers have gone, all who are born (proceed) along the paths they have made for themselves (i.e. according to their good and evil conduct). [RV 10:14 2]

mAtalin (i.e. indra) prospers with the kAvyas; yama with the A—girasas; bRhaspati with the RkvANas; they whom the gods augment, and they who augment the gods, these rejoice in svAhA, those in the svadhA. [RV:10.14.3]

yama, who are associated with the A—girasa pitaras, sit down at this sacrifice; may the prayers recited by the priests bring you here; be exhilarated, sovereign (yama), by this oblation. [RV:10.14.4]

Come here, yama, with the venerable multiform A—girasas, and be exhilarated; I summon vivasvat, who is your father, to this sacrifice; be seated on the sacred grass (delight the sacrificer). [RV:10.14.5]

The A—girasas, the atharvANas, the bhRgavas, who are entitled to the soma, are our recent progenitors; may we ever have a place in the favour of these venerable (pitaras); may we be ever held in their auspicious regard. [RV:10.14.6]

Depart, depart, by the former paths by which our forefathers have departed; there shall you behold the two monarchs yama and the divine varuNa rejoicing in the svadhA. [RV:10.14.7]

Be united with the pitaras, with yama, and with the fulfillment of your wishes in the highest heaven; discarding iniquity, return to your abode, and unite yourself to a luminous body. [RV:10.14.8]

Depart from hence, be gone, go far off, (evil spirits); the pitaras have assigned this place to him (i.e. the departed worshipper), yama has given him a place of cremation consecrated by days, streams and nights. [RV:10.14.9]

Pass by a secure path beyond the two spotted four-eyed dogs, the progeny of saramA, and join the wise pitaras who rejoice joyfully with yama. [RV:10.14.10]

Entrust him, O king, to your two dogs, which are your protectors, yama, the four-eyed guardians of the road, renowned by men, and grant him prosperity and health. [RV:10.14.11]

The messengers of yama, broad-nosed, and of exceeding strength, and satiating themselves with the life (of mortals), hunt mankind; may they allow us this day a prosperous existence here, that we may look upon the sun (or restore to us that fair life to look upon the sun ~ still speaking of the departed worshipper). [RV:10.14.12]

Pour out the soma for yama; to yama offer the oblation, the decorated sacrifice of which agni is the messenger proceeds to yama. [RV:10.14.13]

Offer the oblation of clarified butter to yama, and stand near; it is he who among the gods gives us a long life to live. [RV:10.14.14]

Offer to the royal yama this most sweet oblation; (let) this, our adoration (be addressed) to the ancient sages, the first followers of (virtuous) paths. [RV:10.14.15]

(yama) acquires the three trikadruka sacrifices (i.e. jyotis, gau, and Ayu); the six earths (or substances ~ i.e. heaven, earth, water, plants, the sun, and truth), the one great (moving world); the triSTubh, gAyatrI, all the sacred metres converge in yama. [RV:10.14.16]


yam means “to sustain, hold, hold up, or support (especially one’s self)”; to be founded on, to raise, or wield (as a weapon etc.)”; to extend or hold over (as a screen etc.)”; “to extend one’s self before”; “to raise (the other scale) or weigh more”; “to stretch out, expand, spread, display, or show”; “to hold or keep in, hold back, restrain, check, curb, govern, subdue, or control”; “to offer, confer, grant, bestow on, present with, or make way for”; “to give one’s self up to, be faithful to, or obey”; “to utter (a sound etc.)”; “to fix or establish, to be firm, or not budge”; “to catch fire”; “to be raised or lifted up or held back or restrained”; or “to restrain, hold in, control, keep or put in order”.

yama is “a rein, curb, or bridle”; “a driver or charioteer”; “the act of checking or curbing, suppression, restraint, self-control, forbearance, or any great moral rule or duty”; and thus “any rule or observance”.

yama is “the pitch of the voice or tone of utterance”, and yama is “the key”.

yama is “twin-born, twin, or forming a pair”; “a twin, one of a pair or couple, or a fellow”; “the number two”; or “a pair, brace, or couple”.

yamau indicates “the twins” ~ i.e. the ashvinau or their twin children called nakula and sahadeva.

yama is the god who presides over the pitaras and rules the spirits of the dead; he is regarded as the first of men, and born from vivasvat (the sun) and his wife saranyU. While his brother, the seventh manu (another form of the first man), is the son of vivasvat and saMjŮA (the image of saranyU). His twin-sister is yamI, with whom he resists sexual alliance, but by whom he is mourned after his death, so that the gods (to make her forget her sorrow) create night.

In the veda, he is called a king or saMgamano janAnAm ~ “the gatherer of men” ~ and he rules over the departed fathers in heaven, the road to which is guarded by two broad-nosed, four-eyed, spotted dogs, who are the children of saramA.

In post-vedic mythology, he is the appointed judge and “restrainer” or “punisher” of the dead, in which capacity he is also called dharmarAja ~ corresponding with the greek pluto or minos (cf. mina or matsya).

His abode is in some region of the lower world called yamapura ~ to which place a soul (when it leaves the body) is said to go, and there, after the recorder (citragupta) has read an account of its actions (kept in a book called agrasaMdhana), it receives a just sentence.

yama is described as dressed in blood-red garments, with a glittering form, a crown on his head, with glowing eyes, and like varuNa; holding a noose (with which he binds the spirit after drawing it from the body), and in size about the measure of a man's thumb; and he is grim in aspect, green in colour, riding on a buffalo, and holding a club in one hand and noose in the other.

In the later mythology, he is always represented as a terrible deity inflicting tortures on departed spirits.

He is also one of the eight guardians of the world ~ as regent of the south quarter; and also the regent of the nakSatra bharaNI.

yama is another name for shani or saturn, who is regarded as the son of vivasvat; and one of skanda’s attendants.

yama also names a bad horse (whose limbs are either too small or too large).

yamI is yama’s twin-sister (who is identified in post-vedic mythology with the river-goddess yamunA).

yamana is “restraining, governing, managing, binding, tying, cessation, or end”.

yAma means “cessation, end, restraint, or forbearance”, and “relating to, derived from, or destined for yama”.

yAma indicates “motion, course, going, or progress”, “a road, way, or path”, or “a carriage or chariot”.

yAmA is “a night-watch”, and thus “any period of 3 hours (one eighth of a day)”.

yamarAj or yamarAja or yamarAjan is king yama.

yamarAjya is yama’s dominion.

yama or yamadUta or yamadUtaka indicates “yama’s messenger or minister” or “a crow (as boding evil or death)” ~ employed to bring departed spirits to yama’s judgment-seat, and from there to their final destination.


tasya yathA kapyAsaM puNDarIkam evam akshiNI

Here, akshiNI (the twin eye) is likened with kapyAsaMpuNDarIkam.

The creation has double vision, and every perfect twin is divided ~ thus distinguishing the ruddy kapyAsam and the pure white puNDarIkam.

The advaita perspective is clearly focused, and in unity the term kapyAsaMpuNDarIkam provides a perfectly conceived illumination.


iLa-iLA, represents the essential twin of agni and hotR ~ the sacred fire and the priest ~ the sacrifice and the sacrificer ~ and it is the same great eternal sacrifice of creation, which began with daksha-prajApati’s original Atma-yajŮa.

The twin duty of every brAhmaNa is service to god AND service to humanity (indeed, all of god’s creation). And the duty of every guru is serving between god AND his devotees. And in true practice, there can be no distinction made between the two!

agnimILe purohitaM yajŮasya devamRt dvijam | hotAraM ratnadhAtamam ||

Znanna
27 October 2006, 05:29 PM
Namaste,

Could you please explain what Aswins is/are? Perhaps this would provoke additional conversation :)


ZN

OTOH, it also could render one speechless :)

Many thanks, sarabhanga.



ZN
/WOWOW

atanu
30 October 2006, 02:27 AM
:rolleyes:

-----

ashvin derives from svan, which indicates ďa dogĒ ~ with the dual shvAnau referring to ďthe two houndsĒ (of saramA and yama).

-------
Worship with oblations from yama, king (of the pitaras), son of vivasvat, the aggregation of mankind, who conducts those who are virtuous over the earth, and opens to many the path (of heaven). [RV:10.14.1]

-------



Pranam Sarabhanga Ji,

Thanks for all these. But the clarity is yet to be. I yearn for more and with more clarity. Yama-Yami and Aswins are offsprings of the same father but not the same mother. Chaya is the mother of Yama-Yami whereas the original is the mother of Aswins.

What appears to be Yama-Yami to us mortals is really the Chaya of two brilliances -- which actually gives new bodies of flesh or light as per the wish. That is what I can make up as of now. Aswins appear as Rudravartini -- red as the early morning sun and end up being Hiryanavarna -- the clear golden yellow white light of the mid-day.

They gave Atri the feeling of coolness while He was in Agni. Same way they saved someone called Bhyuyu from water. He gave Rishi Chyavan a new body so that young girls very much attracted to the rishi (interesting really). So they have the power to lift one out of the noose of elements and the elemental self both.

Awsins are called Rudras in Rig Veda. Do Aswins have some correspondence in Puranas?Who are the other Rudras in Veda and in Puranas?


Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
04 November 2006, 01:49 PM
Not many seem to be much interested in a new shining body that will attract young girls, like it happened with Rishi Chayvan?

So sad.

Aswins are perhaps best represented by Ahir Bhairava!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????

The sinduri red Bhairava playing with fair white Ahirini.

Znanna
04 November 2006, 04:27 PM
I Love You.

This was the first thing that the fellow who I refer to as Twin said to me. I started calling him that, as I didn't want to use his proper name (as I understand it to be) to others, and, well, he is my exact complement, like angles in geometry. Twin made sense, at the time. Who knew? :)

There are lots of ways of describing the Beingness of en-Twined. No disrespect intended, but Aswins is a new term to me. Twin is Beloved, the perfect balance. The Flow is all directed and directionless, it just IS. What sarabhanga said above, well, that makes sense to me. Perfect sense. As someone on another list pointed out to me, it is embarassing to admit to doing stuff which, well ... I'm sorry if this offends any.

Nowadays, to me Twin is both One and Many. That still hurts a bit, as I would prefer to think of Him as a particular soul, but fact is it doesn't really matter, in practice.

This also goes to the "sanctity of sex" thingy, too, I think.

While it would be a reach to call mySelves "celibate", I've abstained from physical sex for a long time (like the better part of 25 years or so). After a while, everything sort of feels the same, One. Doesn't matter if its person or people, man or woman, black white brown or blue, animal or vegetable, the interaction is the same. It all feels really fine.

To me, meditation is ecstatic. I feel it when my friends from around the world blow me a kiss :) Enjoy all, neglect none. This, dear Atanu, is why I use the sig line. For me, there is no difference in giving up all and having it all, as only in being truly willing to sacrifice everything is anything gained.

Thanks for tolerating me on this list, y'all. I learn so much from your expressions of so much study; and I am just a freaky girl.


Namaste,
ZN

sarabhanga
04 November 2006, 07:55 PM
Aswins are perhaps best represented by Ahir Bhairava

ahiH is the one constant light above ~ the coiled serpent of the sky ~ the prajŮa paramAtman ~ ruled by yama.

The bhIravaH are the many trembling shadows below ~ the moving serpents of the earth ~ the vaishvAnara jIvAtmAnaH ~ ruled by manu.

And the ashvinau are conceived in the tejas of their saMdhi.

yajvan
04 November 2006, 09:10 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

What of these Asvins? To them , they propel vital movements within the family of man. What are these? Nobility, Courage, Self-Giving, the urge for beauty, harmony. One principle charactistic is the capacity for enjoyment and the enjoyment we may recieve.

This is why the rishi's have called them shubhaspati, the guardians of bliss - also madhuman, full of honey ( Or the delight of existence)...

We know them as the divine physicians - yet their practice is to up lift us spiritually.
I wish to know them personally and call on them for their divine grace to lead me closer to the goal - to HIM , he who breathes out the Ved.

pranams,

atanu
05 November 2006, 06:33 AM
I Love You.

-----Thanks for tolerating me on this list, y'all. I learn so much from your expressions of so much study; and I am just a freaky girl.


Namaste,
ZN

You are not only welcome -- more; actually we being thankful for having you among us.

Om

sarabhanga
07 November 2006, 04:39 PM
Awsins are called Rudras in Rig Veda. Do Aswins have some correspondence in Puranas? Who are the other Rudras in Veda and in Puranas?

The innumerable Rudrah are counted as eleven in the Vedas.

ye devāso divyekādaśa stha prthivyāmadhyekādaśa stha |
apsukshito mahinaikādaśa stha te devāso yajŮamimam jushadhvam | RV 1.139.11 |

O ye Eleven Gods whose home is heaven,
O ye Eleven who make earth your dwelling,
Ye who with might, Eleven, live in waters,
Accept this sacrifice, O Gods, with pleasure.

Eleven Rudras penetrating all the Three Worlds, giving us 33 Vishvadevas in all!


The Mahabharata names the eleven as:
Mrgavyadha, Sharva, Nirrti, Ajaikapad, Ahirbudhnya, Pinakin, Dahana, Ishvara, Kapalin, Sthanu, and Bhava.

The Harivamsha names the eleven as:
Hara, Vahrupa, Tryambaka, Aparajita, Vrshakapi, Shambhu, Kapardin, Raivata, Mrgavyadha, Sarpa, and Kapalin.

The Matsyapurana names the eleven as:
Ajaikapad, Ahirbudhnya, Viupaksha, Raivata, Hara, Vahurupa, Tryambaka, Savitra, Jayanta, Pinakin, and Aparajita.


The Vamadeva Mantra appeals to the eleven Rudrah :

vāmadevāya namo jyeshthāya namah śreshtāya namo rudrāya namah kālāya namah kalavikaranāya namo balāya namo balavikaranāya namo balaprathanāya namah sarvabhūtadamanāya namo manonmanāya namah

Bow to the Noble One, to the Eldest; to the Best; to the Howler; and to Time;
Bow to the Incomprehensible, to Strength, to the Cause of the Various Forces, and to the Extender of Strength;
Bow to the One who Subdues All Beings, and who Kindles the Light.

sarabhanga
08 November 2006, 06:13 AM
turya = rudra = (advaita) shiva = (nirguNa) brahma = hara = akala = nara = sahadeva

prajŮa = rudrAH = (dvaita) shiva = (saguNa) brahmA = hari = kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula


In truth, saMjŮA (mother of manu) and saraNyU (mother of yama) are one and the same !


hari-hara :)

atanu
14 December 2006, 01:16 PM
turya = rudra = (advaita) shiva = (nirguNa) brahma = hara = akala = nara = sahadeva



prajŮa = rudrAH = (dvaita) shiva = (saguNa) brahmA = hari = kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula



In truth, saMjŮA (mother of manu) and saraNyU (mother of yama) are one and the same !



hari-hara :)




akala = nara = sahadeva


kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula


Will you please explain these two sets please (after your return from pilgrimage).


Om Namah Shivayya

Sudarshan
07 January 2007, 08:28 AM
akala = nara = sahadeva


kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula


Will you please explain these two sets please (after your return from pilgrimage).


Om Namah Shivayya

Atanuji, what is basis for these equations?

kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula
akala = nara = sahadeva

Can you demonstrate in Mahabaratha in which these characters figure?

Nakula and Sahadeva are jIvAs, and subject to the law of Karma. Read the svargArohaNa parva where nakula and sahadeva fall dead due to their haughtiness. Are these the ones equated with Krishna paramAtma who is the unborn cause of all?

Mahabaratha repeatedly mentions that Arjuna is Nara and Krishna is Narayana. Arjuna is Indra, the chief of svarga. There is absolutely no evidence of nakula being nArAyaNa. Or is it some advaitic twist of yours? Atanu= Narayana!! So nakula=narayana!! Great understanding of Mahabaratha.

atanu
10 January 2007, 12:42 PM
Atanuji, what is basis for these equations?

kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula
akala = nara = sahadeva

Can you demonstrate in Mahabaratha in which these characters figure?

------ There is absolutely no evidence of nakula being nArAyaNa.

Or is it some advaitic twist of yours? Atanu= Narayana!! So nakula=narayana!! Great understanding of Mahabaratha.



Sudarshan Ji, ( I am trying to imitate you)

What is the basis of your great understanding? Some real twist? Please see that what you are charging me with were my questions to Sarabhanga Ji based on what He posted.


Are you not always too eager? ---- to accuse? And sarcasm?


Check please and understand how one's own mind leads one to mistake. This is the way God works. Good for you.

Some carry bombs in their pockets which go off in their pockets only. But ego does not allow them to accept any folly.

Sudarshan
11 January 2007, 07:15 AM
Sudarshan Ji, ( I am trying to imitate you)

What is the basis of your great understanding? Some real twist? Please see that what you are charging me with were my questions to Sarabhanga Ji based on what He posted.


Are you not always too eager? ---- to accuse? And sarcasm?


Check please and understand how one's own mind leads one to mistake. This is the way God works. Good for you.

Some carry bombs in their pockets which go off in their pockets only. But ego does not allow them to accept any folly.

I see. So you mean the questions be redirected to Sarabhanga. So be it.

Nevertheless, statements are continuosly made without justification. It brings me a smile ( and a subsequent sarcasm;) ) when jIvas like nakula and sahadeva are viewed on par with Krishna, with no evidence.

Such a trend amongst Hindus have allowed the missionaries to feed anything they want - since we would be willing to accept anything and everything without questioning. If a missionary hands out a leaflet saying Jesus is God - the Hindu does not loose a moment to accept this 'universal' truth without evidence. Just imagine, a Hindu who would take nakula and Krishna to be one and the same after reading the Mahabaratha, will virtually believe in anything else.:)

atanu
11 January 2007, 07:40 AM
I see. So you mean the questions be redirected to Sarabhanga. So be it.

----.:)


First check your impulses and accept folly and then ask please. One is not capable of comprehending the truth when the mind runs riot. Sarabhanga ji is beyond you.

I will leave a hint for you: Vidya and Avidya do not reside together.

Om Namah Shivayya..

Anyway, my brother, please carry on.

Sudarshan
11 January 2007, 07:49 AM
I will leave a hint for you: Vidya and Avidya do not reside together.


Yes!!

When Sudarshan is available on this forum, the avidya ( mere unsubstantiated claims or opinions) struggles to exist and comes under scrutiny ( and irritates those championing the cause of avidya). .;)

atanu
12 January 2007, 08:11 AM
Yes!!

When Sudarshan is available on this forum, the avidya ( mere unsubstantiated claims or opinions) struggles to exist and comes under scrutiny ( and irritates those championing the cause of avidya). .;)


Sudarshan,

It is very clear who merely claims without checking. Who is irritated and attacks others personally. And it is also clear that who has not the slightest bit of compunction about a mistake, which is open for all to see.

This evidence will always be there whether you close your eyes or not.

I do not have anything personally against you, but since you have been repeatedly dirty and are yet to learn to isolate the debate from the debater, I withdraw myself. Be happy please.

Namaste and Bye.

Sudarshan
12 January 2007, 08:38 AM
Sudarshan,

It is very clear who merely claims without checking. Who is irritated and attacks others personally. And it is also clear that who has not the slightest bit of compunction about a mistake, which is open for all to see.

This evidence will always be there whether you close your eyes or not.

I do not have anything personally against you, but since you have been repeatedly dirty and are yet to learn to isolate the debate from the debater, I withdraw myself. Be happy please.

Namaste and Bye.

Yes, dear. It is jIvA's nature to be flawed. If it is Brahman's nature to be beyond flaws, atleast stick to your principles and set an example.

atanu
12 January 2007, 09:11 AM
Yes, dear. It is jIvA's nature to be flawed. If it is Brahman's nature to be beyond flaws, atleast stick to your principles and set an example.


Yes, please note that I have accused the poison of ego and not you. And I am also not free of poison of ego. But I have not commited a mistake that I have covered with bravado.

Om Namah Shivayya

Znanna
12 January 2007, 05:14 PM
Nevertheless, statements are continuosly made without justification. It brings me a smile ( and a subsequent sarcasm;) ) when jIvas like nakula and sahadeva are viewed on par with Krishna, with no evidence.



Namaste, Sudarshan,

I suspect I may be one of those who annoys you, as I am studied in experience not in Vedic Scripture, and I only speak of what I know.

:)

For the most part, I don't post on threads of this type, as I am neither schooled in debate nor in your traditions. However, the notion of Twin, well, the whole reason I'm *here* at HDF is that I started finding analogs in your Scripture to my experiences, and this is something I am studying now.

What I call en-Twining (as in being knit into fabric, pun intended) came as a direct result of some very intense meditations, in which I received instructions, psychically, from the one I call Mistress, Inanna. Later, I dealt with the agony of knowing separation as individual, rather than One. Then, I came to realize that Twin was a multiplicity and One at the same time. The next thing that tore my heart was the notion that Inanna also was Many and One at the same time. I resolved this through a multi-month prayer to Mathangi, Whom I then came to realize was also Inanna and every other aspect of HEr.

I do not intend to disrespect Scripture by posting my reflections. I don't claim any pedigree, as you know. Ironically, I am considered equally outcast by everyone who considers themselves a 'protector of the faith' regardless of whatever that faith may be. Works for me :)



Love,
ZN

Znanna
15 January 2007, 02:18 PM
IX, 1. Hymn to the honey-lash of the Asvins.

1. From heaven, from earth, from the atmosphere, from the sea, from the fire, and from the wind, the honey-lash hath verily sprung. This, clothed in amrita (ambrosia), all the creatures revering, acclaim in their hearts.
2. Great sap of all forms (colours) it hath-they call thee moreover the seed of the ocean. Where the honey-lash comes bestowing gifts, there life's breath, and there immortality has settled down.
3. Men severally, contemplating it profoundly, behold its action upon the earth: from the fire and from the wind the honey-lash hath verily sprung, the strong child of the Maruts.
4. Mother of the ¬dityas, daughter of the Vasus, breath of life of created beings, nave of immortality, the honey-lash, golden-coloured, dripping ghee, as a great embryo, moves among mortals.
5. The god's begot the lash of honey, from it came an embryo having all forms (colours). This, as soon as born, (while yet) young its mother nourishes; this, as soon as born, surveys all the worlds.
6. Who knows it and who perceives it, the inexhaustible, soma-holding cup that has come from the heart of it (the honey-lash)? 'Tis the wise priest: he shall derive inspiration from it!
7. He knows them, and he perceives them, the inexhaustible breasts of it (the honey-lash), that yield a thousand streams. Nourishment they pour out -without recalcitration.
8. The great (cow) that loudly gives forth the sound 'him,' that bestows strength, and goes with loud shouts to the holy act, bellowing with lust for the three (male) gharmas (fires), she lows, and drips with (streams) of milk.
9. When the waters, the mighty bulls, self-sovereign, wait upon (the cow), swollen with milk, (then) they, the waters, pour nourishment (upon her), and cause her to pour nourishment at will for him that knoweth this.
10. The thunder is thy voice, O Prag‚pati; as a bull thou hurlest thy fire upon the earth. From the fire, and from the wind the honey-lash hath verily sprung, the strong child of the Maruts.
11. As the soma at the morn ing-pressure is dear to the Asvins, thus in my own person, O Asvins, lustre shall be sustained!
12. As the soma at the second (mid-day) pressure is dear to Indra and Agni, thus in my own person, O Indra, and Agni, lustre shall be sustained!
13. As the soma at the third pressure (evening) is dear to the Ribhus, thus in my own person, O Ribhus, lustre shall be sustained!
14. May I beget honey for myself; may I obtain honey for myself! Bringing milk, O Agni, I have come:. endow me with lustre!
15. Endow me, O Agni, with lustre, endow me with offspring and with life! May the gods take note of this (prayer) of mine; may Indra together with the Rishis (take note of it)!
16. As bees carry together honey upon honey, thus in my own person, O Asvins, lustre shall be sustained!
17. As the bees pile this honey upon honey, thus in my own person, O Asvins, lustre, brilliance, strength, and force shall be sustained!
18. The honey that is in the mountains, in the heights; in the cows, and in the horses; the honey which is in the sur‚ (brandy) as it is being poured out, that shall be in me!
19. O Asvins, lords of brightness, anoint me with the honey of the bee, that I may speak forceful speech among men!
20. The thunder is thy speech, O Prag‚pati; as a bull thou hurlest thy fire upon earth and heaven. All animals live upon it (the earth), and she with it (Prag‚pati's fire) fills nourishment and food.
21. The earth is the staff, the atmosphere the embryo, the heaven the whip (itself?), the lightning the whip-cord; of gold is the tip (of the whip?).
22. He that knoweth the seven honies of the whip becomes rich in honey; (to wit), the Br‚hmana, the king, the cow, the ox, rice, barley, and honey as the seventh.
23. Rich in honey becomes he, rich in honey become his appurtenances, worlds rich in honey does he win, he that knoweth thus.
24. When in a bright sky it thunders, then Prag‚pati manifests himself to (his) creatures (prag‚h). Therefore do I stand with the sacred cord suspended from the right shoulder (pr‚kinopavita), saying, 'O Prag‚pati, watch over me!' The creatures (prag‚h) watch over him, Prag‚pati watches over him, that knoweth thus.



ZN

Sudarshan
16 January 2007, 09:55 AM
Namaste, Sudarshan,

I suspect I may be one of those who annoys you, as I am studied in experience not in Vedic Scripture, and I only speak of what I know.

:)

For the most part, I don't post on threads of this type, as I am neither schooled in debate nor in your traditions. However, the notion of Twin, well, the whole reason I'm *here* at HDF is that I started finding analogs in your Scripture to my experiences, and this is something I am studying now.

What I call en-Twining (as in being knit into fabric, pun intended) came as a direct result of some very intense meditations, in which I received instructions, psychically, from the one I call Mistress, Inanna. Later, I dealt with the agony of knowing separation as individual, rather than One. Then, I came to realize that Twin was a multiplicity and One at the same time. The next thing that tore my heart was the notion that Inanna also was Many and One at the same time. I resolved this through a multi-month prayer to Mathangi, Whom I then came to realize was also Inanna and every other aspect of HEr.

I do not intend to disrespect Scripture by posting my reflections. I don't claim any pedigree, as you know. Ironically, I am considered equally outcast by everyone who considers themselves a 'protector of the faith' regardless of whatever that faith may be. Works for me :)



Love,
ZN

Interesting to hear about personal experiences, and they are quite varied. As we know some have gone to deny any underlying reality through personal experience.( the Buddhists) which is not quite the same thing experienced by vedantins. The realms of consciousness are varied and can give many experiences and sometimes illusions.

I would not certainly undertake any intensive meditation unless instructed to do so by the Lord. All religions accept a certain degree of oneness between God and man ( either as an image, qualitative equality, absolute identity etc), and one could possibly resolve this only by personal experience.

A simple logic tells me that something identical to God had no business to suffer in this wilderness - so I would view the whole idea with considerable scepticism. Simply quoting the scripture out of context, without justifying the whole frame work on which absolute non dualty rests, and without an iota of knowledge of alternate systems does not passeth.

Znanna
16 January 2007, 06:23 PM
Interesting to hear about personal experiences, and they are quite varied. As we know some have gone to deny any underlying reality through personal experience.( the Buddhists) which is not quite the same thing experienced by vedantins. The realms of consciousness are varied and can give many experiences and sometimes illusions.

I would not certainly undertake any intensive meditation unless instructed to do so by the Lord. All religions accept a certain degree of oneness between God and man ( either as an image, qualitative equality, absolute identity etc), and one could possibly resolve this only by personal experience.

A simple logic tells me that something identical to God had no business to suffer in this wilderness - so I would view the whole idea with considerable scepticism. Simply quoting the scripture out of context, without justifying the whole frame work on which absolute non dualty rests, and without an iota of knowledge of alternate systems does not passeth.

Does not passeth? LOL

I'm not religious, Sudarshan. There is not a religion which accepts my kind :)

I been called crazy, my whole life, so go right ahead and throw down, if you wish! Maybe I am crazy, certainly my experiences are quite different, apparently, from many others'. I've done a lot of stuff, and I engage my mind in searching for analogs, it is enriching in a way and certainly satiating.

I *was* instructed specifically in my meditation by Godz. SHe graces me by mirroring the chakras in me. What other experience of Holy is there, but surrendering to the numinous?

I revere Scripture. The inspired expression of the experience of Godz is a beautiful participatory rite, which enjoys the art and form of the dance. Yet, this is a reflection, as language cannot contain the infinity of Godz and their images seen in reflections of symbol and pattern. The *analysis* of Scripture is a bit wierd, to me, in that it seems, at times, that the analysis detracts from the intent and only takes one a step further removed rather than towards understanding (rather than "knowledge").

Balancing the polarities of understanding and knowledge, this is the middle path, so your reference to Buddhism has relevance in this respect.

Non duality exists when balance is effortless. When there is NO DIFFERENCE between one and another, inside and outside, one and many, this inflection point of nonconscious awareness ... this is the embrace of the Beloved, the Twin.

I am not Hindu, I claim no pedigree. Yet, what I *am* (as opposed to Twin's I AM hehe), somehow I think I see the analogs in your tradition to my experiences; it is part of my path to declare myself, and help when asked.

Twin told me that Shiva cannot know himSelf without Shakti. This is why I speak out.



Namaste,
ZN

Sudarshan
17 January 2007, 01:55 AM
I *was* instructed specifically in my meditation by Godz. SHe graces me by mirroring the chakras in me. What other experience of Holy is there, but surrendering to the numinous?


That sounds interesting. Are you saying that you are "chakra awakened"? I must assume that such a person must possess knowledge and insight well beyond ordinary men, and should you go deep in meditation, you can try to "analyze" me and examine my words. Perhaps some of my past births will reveal who "I am" hehe.

I am also called "crazy" sometimes in real life, for various reasons.;)

Znanna
17 January 2007, 04:41 AM
That sounds interesting. Are you saying that you are "chakra awakened"? I must assume that such a person must possess knowledge and insight well beyond ordinary men, and should you go deep in meditation, you can try to "analyze" me and examine my words. Perhaps some of my past births will reveal who "I am" hehe.

I am also called "crazy" sometimes in real life, for various reasons.;)

I am awake, and I remember, Sudarshan.

Namaste,
ZN

atanu
17 January 2007, 09:49 AM
Aswins is worshipped before Usha appears but after Dadhikarana. I'm usually asleep then. Must change now. On several ocassions I've tasted the honey however.

Usha is the separation, the lust, the beauty, the purity, the beginning, and Agni follows from Dadhikarana -- who is One.


Om

atanu
17 January 2007, 09:51 AM
10.131.04 You, O As'vins, lords of light, having drunk the grateful (libation), jointly preserved Indra in battle against the Asura Namuci.

10.131.05 Both the As'vins defended (you), Indra, like two fathers (defending) a son with glorious exploits; when (triumphing) through the deeds of valour, you drank the grateful libation, Sarasvati_ approached you, O Maghavat.

Om

Znanna
17 January 2007, 07:53 PM
Aswins is worshipped before Usha appears but after Dadhikarana. I'm usually asleep then. Must change now. On several ocassions I've tasted the honey however.

Usha is the separation, the lust, the beauty, the purity, the beginning, and Agni follows from Dadhikarana -- who is One.


Om




om sAma-gayanAya namaH



ZN

Sudarshan
24 January 2007, 09:45 AM
I am awake, and I remember, Sudarshan.

Namaste,
ZN

wow, first time I hear this from anyone. You must be very lucky and one of those rare ones. Soul's encounter with God of any manifestation is very rare and means liberation is very near.

Znanna
24 January 2007, 07:58 PM
wow, first time I hear this from anyone. You must be very lucky and one of those rare ones. Soul's encounter with God of any manifestation is very rare and means liberation is very near.

Namaste, Sudarshan,

I try hard to say what I mean. Plain spoken sometimes is bold, sorry if it is too, um, New York :) (I am a New Yorker, heh.)

Lucky? I felt more like a freak my whole life, really, being psychic and stuff. I suppose that's "rare", but for me it meant I was always trying to justify my experience, or observations when I was younger. Nowadays, situation dictates outcome, I don't care to prove myself, or not. There was no precedent, no context for me, as a youth, so I invented my own symbolic structure for the universe or whatever. I found that I could pray and get answers. I don't know if it is "me" an aspect of "Me" the Godz or what which responds, but I get some sort of direct revelation of stuff that I find written about later (like in y'alls scriptures), and been doing this for about 35 years. Please don't consider me as one who would attempt to interpret Holy writings, they are what they are and the meaning is as you wish to take it; I cannot improve on what is already there without degrading the, um, implicit clarity of expression. The essence of Scriptures, I think, is that you see what is revealed to you, at that point in time; it is not for another to say what that means, in my opinion.

Rare? You'd be surprised how many are waking, all over, past few years. The gates of forgetfullness have been cast open, and the forgotten ones find new acolytes. But, yes, I am blessed (and cursed) with having seen/experienced the Holy of Holies, I have heard the gongs which resonate numinousness ... but the important thing is, that what I've experienced is like, literally what is described in some of your Scriptures. That's the point I really want to make. Sometimes a rose is a rose :)

Liberation? From what, having a good time? I'm here because I want to be. I make no claim to be enlightened; I am just a girl :D

I offer my comments in the context of hey, this stuff really happens just like they say, with personal reflection as embellishment. Hopefully, that does not insult.


Love,
ZN


PS "Twin" is a term I coined for the Beloved; it was only after that I found referent in traditions as diverse as voudoun and Hindu, and is what has led me to discussion here

sarabhanga
04 July 2007, 10:05 PM
akala = nara = sahadeva
kAla = nArAyaNa = nakula

Will you please explain these two sets please (after your return from pilgrimage).


Namaste Atanu,

I was drawing together various previously discussed Twins to show their essential correspondences in relation to the universal archetype of hara and hari (nara and nArAyaNa).



The ashvinau are the first and the last united, as the first flower and the final fruition ~ both the cause and the result of creative action in one, and together bearing the seed of this transmission.

United, the twin ashvinau represents the one turiya; and apart, they are prAjŮa (as nakula) and turiya (as sahadeva).

atanu
03 August 2007, 10:14 AM
Namaste Atanu,

I was drawing together various previously discussed Twins to show their essential correspondences in relation to the universal archetype of hara and hari (nara and nArAyaNa).

Namaste Sarabhanga Ji,

This reply escaped notice for sometime.

I am still not clear as to why akala is nara or why nara is akala. And similarly, why Narayana is kala.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

sarabhanga
04 August 2007, 04:54 AM
Namaste Atanu,

nara is “the primeval man” (as “the eternal spirit pervading the universe”); and nArAyaNa is the “son of the primeval man”.

nara is the old man; and nArAyaNa is the young man.

nara is the original undivided puruSa; and nArAyaNa is his divided self-conception.

nara is aja and ekapada; while nArAyaNa is prajA and sahasrapAda.

nara is hara (the one paramAtman); and nArAyaNa is hari (the many jIvAtmAna).

nara is akala (“not in parts”); and nArAyaNa is his kalam (“seed”), which is kAla (“enumerated”).

In yoga, nara and nArAyaNa are realized as non-different (a perfect twin), and the naranArAyaNau is observed.

And naranArAyaNa is another name for kRSNa.

harihara !

atanu
04 August 2007, 11:55 PM
Namaste Atanu,

nara is “the primeval man” (as “the eternal spirit pervading the universe”); and nArAyaNa is the “son of the primeval man”.

nara is the old man; and nArAyaNa is the young man.

nara is the original undivided puruSa; and nArAyaNa is his divided self-conception.

nara is aja and ekapada; while nArAyaNa is prajA and sahasrapAda.

nara is hara (the one paramAtman); and nArAyaNa is hari (the many jIvAtmAna).

nara is akala (“not in parts”); and nArAyaNa is his kalam (“seed”), which is kAla (“enumerated”).

In yoga, nara and nArAyaNa are realized as non-different (a perfect twin), and the naranArAyaNau is observed.

And naranArAyaNa is another name for kRSNa.

harihara !


Namaste sarabhanga,

Thank you for the lucid explantation. Tvam is Vishnu. Tat is Sadashiva. Apparently Aswin - the twin ---- but actually ONE, inseparable.


I have a feeling that the Aswin mystery is near a solution.

Regards


Om Namah Shivaya