All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

[Eric11235]

Vannakam all,

Recently I have been trying to comprehend that which cannot be comprehended by the human mind. That which has various labels, but no real name. I am of course talking of the supreme being. Here is how I try to conceive of that which is.

This being is not a being in the traditional sense. It is a being only because we need to relate to our creator. To my understanding, god could never truly be a being, because a being has form, a being can only be in one place at any time, a being exists within space and time. And in my belief, none of these things apply to that which is. It has never not existed, it existed before time, and will exist forever after. That which is has no beginning or end.

Another point I would like to make is that god exists not only in our universe, not only the x number of universes that exists. It also exists in a realm where there is no time or space. It is unfathomable, this concept of no form, no space, no time. It is impossible to understand by human minds. Maybe when one attains Moksha one realizes the truth of the eternal being.

On that note I would like to shift focus to the nature of religion. I have come to believe that the path that one chooses is the right path for them. For me it is Hinduism, for another, Christianity, for some, the teachings of Zoroaster. All of them lead to the same end. That is the return to Brahman, the universal consciousness. Even atheism is a religion of sorts, it is not the absence of a belief. It is the belief that there is no god. But for some atheists, their conception of god is a personification, a partial, formed god. So while I do not agree with them. Their path leads to god as well (although they may not know it). I do not dig spreading my own religion. I believe in teh concept of freedom to choose. Who should I be to impede that choice.

Finally, I would like to note something about the universal consciousness (brahman). It is my earnest belief that we exist both outside and inside ourselves. Because we are all partitions of the universal mind, we all exist within one another. So to hate one another is to hate the self. Which is a good case for ahimsa

Sorry if that was long winded, overblown, trite, or any other negative adjectives pertaining to pretention. If you read this, post your conception of god, if you are comfortable with that. Thanks for reading, this is the ramblings of one who thinks they know but truly don't. I hope if nothing else, you found it an interesting (if albeit not totally original) look at the nature of the supreme being.

Namaste

[Believer]

When the human mind gets the notion that it can see all that there is to be seen, it goes off on the wrong track. We can validate physical phenomenon with experiments in a lab or by performing mental gymnastics; but when we rise to the intellectual vanity of discarding the scriptures in favor of exercising our limited intellect in hypothesizing Him, when we identify Him as a being with human constraints, we fall flat on our face. To deny that the Lord Himself appeared on this earth and spoke Bhagwad Gita to Arjun is totally irrational.

We think of everyone in terms of our human existence. The Lord can be here, in what we identify as the human form, and still be everywhere else; running the universe, and knowing all that is going on in it. To limit His presence to one spot as if He were a common human being, is denying His limitless glory.

The notion of all paths leading to the top is to me a great misconception. One could take a path which circumambulates the base of a mountain, or one could take a trail which leads him to the top of the mountain. Or one could take a path that leads him half way up the mountain and then makes him go in circles. This idea of putting all religions at the same level and thinking that they all lead us to the Divine is a very shallow statement to me. Some lead you to nirvana and others to suicide bombings. And, we get to choose which one we want to follow.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


The Supreme in a word is anirukta, unspeakable.
Yet we try to put it in some framework, some boundry that allows our mind(s) to get a flavor of this...

praṇām

[Eric11235]

Vannkam

There is no way to truly fathom the supreme. I agree with you believer on the idea of god being in only one place as totally myopic.

As for the following the path ideal. I do not mean that one necessarily reaches the goal by following the right path for them. In fact, they may never attain the goal in that lifetime, I'm just saying that one should not assume that there is one "True" path.

I have no illusions that I have seen the divine. I have not even come close to that realization. I am just trying to conceptualize god in a way that makes sense to me (and I have a constant need to justify myself) Although I will not truly comprehend the true nature of god. I can always ponder.

[mfisher]

Namaste Eric,

I just had this converstation with a friend of mine yesterday as I was telling her that I am now a practicing Hindu. She is a Christian and thankfully was open to my ideas.

My experience in the past with Christianity is that it can be a very judgemental religion. I have been in many Christian churches of many denominations and have had the same experience with members wanting to "Save" non believers.

I as you believe that as long as one truly believes and follows their religion in their heart that they will be lead to God. Of course, as long as some basic rules of humanity are followed ie not murdering others for example as someone mentioned above. Also, a loving God would not turn away one that truly believes they are doing the right thing.

Seva,
Melissa

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I totally agree with Believer's statement, "The notion of all paths leading to the top is to me a great misconception." He has also explained how, nicely.

Human mind--manas, deals with abstract--amUrtha, and concrete--mUrtha, thoughts. While our intellect--buddhi, is satisfied with the amUrtha, the mind requires it to be shaped up--mUrtha. This is the reason that all relgions have reduced the concept of God into a (human) form.

A God-form must perforce limit the infinite consciousness. To get around this limitation, religions attribute the features of infinite power, eternal glory, infinite love, justice, and even human traits such as fury and vengeance to God.

Only one religion, Hindu Dharma, has realized and proclaimed the Absolute Truth of Eternal and Infinite Existence-Consciousness-Bliss that exists beyond the God-forms, in everything and that every individual soul has the legacy to get back to and merge with its source.

Sun is reflected in all the forms of stagnant or flowing water. In some, the image is clear and still; in some, the image is graceful and loving as in a classical form of dance; in some, the image is distorted; while the ocean is in turmoil to completely get rid of any formed reflection.

[Believer]

I'm just saying that one should not assume that there is one "True" path.

True, I am not assuming anything. If one accepts the relative superiority of one religion over the others in terms of its philosophy, the vastness of its religious literature, and the quality of its adherents, why should it not be accepted as the true path? Is it just out of looking good by taking the high moral ground, that we should feign humility and thereby accept our faith as "at the same level" as others? Sorry, disagree with you on that.


Only one religion, Hindu Dharma, has realized and proclaimed the Absolute Truth of Eternal and Infinite Existence-Consciousness-Bliss that exists beyond the God-forms, in everything and that every individual soul has the legacy to get back to and merge with its source.

[atanu]

Namaste Eric11235 and All

As I understand, based upon what hindu gurus say, one difference between Hinduism and other faiths is that it does not proclaim that it alone shows the path to liberation.

But that belief can be antithetic to the belief itself, if not tempered with the knowledge of the fact that Paramatman who wants to grace the devotee anywhere is one and same and has no preference. In this regard I paste the following oft cited teaching:

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/chap6.htm

I essentially believe the same way as you believe.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Sahasranama]

There is a difference in the statement "there are more paths to the same goal" and "all paths lead to the same goal." Do you understand the difference? The notion that all roads lead to the same goal is logically flawed. Not just that, but it is also contradictory to the shruti: मैतम पन्थामनुगा भीम एष् "Do not walk on this path, this path is horrifying." If all paths led to the same goal, the shruti would not need to warn against any path. You are free to accept the notion that all paths lead to the same goal, but note that when you do that, you are rejecting both the authority of the vedas and critical thinking. You are free to do both.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

What are the goals of various religions? Should we analyze it from the perspective of our own religion, or should we ask the various adherents what their goals are? I liken it to a family going out for ice cream. Dad likes blueberry ice cream so he buys 7 blueberry ice creams to share. This is clearly not listening to others point of view, and thereby disrespecting them. Of course the standard way would be to ask each family member what flavor he or she wants.

I do not believe all religions lead to the same goal. Why? Because I've asked other adherents what they think. The western religions more or less agree that we have one lifetime to either get to heaven or not. This is nowhere near what Sanatana dharma believers believe. Even within Sanatana dharma there is some disagreement.

Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I agree with Atanu that any superior perception of Paramatman in Hinduism must be "tempered with the knowledge of the fact that Paramatman who wants to grace the devotee anywhere is one and same and has no preference."

Nevertheless, although I believe that Paramameshvara's grace is available to everyone like sunlight, it could be drawn effectively by only those who worship him sincerely, in whatever name and form and faith. This means that the orthodox people in the Abrahamic religions who are bent on religions proselytisation and religious persecution would only be spilling Parameshvara's grace like perforated vessels.

As Theosophy suggests, the One God, seven planes of manifestation of the cosmic consciousness, three worlds for the cycle of karma and reincarnation of individual souls, and so on, as conceptualized in Hindu/Bhauddha Dharma, are the same for the entire mankind, whatever the stand of other religions. So, people who are misguided in this life are most likely to realize their mistake in their afterlife and redeem it in successive lives.

[Believer]

There is a difference in the statement "there are more paths to the same goal" and "all paths lead to the same goal." Do you understand the difference? The notion that all roads lead to the same goal is logically flawed.
You are free to accept the notion that all paths lead to the same goal, but note that when you do that, you are rejecting both the authority of the vedas and critical thinking. You are free to do both.


Exactly!


I liken it to a family going out for ice cream. Dad likes blueberry ice cream so he buys 7 blueberry ice creams to share. This is clearly not listening to others point of view, and thereby disrespecting them. Of course the standard way would be to ask each family member what flavor he or she wants.


This analogy does not hold water.
In this case, the difference is between buying an ice-cream vs. buying an ice-cone. It is not only the difference in flavors we are talking about, but the differences in the content of character.


Saidevo: .....Paramameshvara's grace is available to everyone like sunlight, it could be drawn effectively by only those who worship him sincerely, in whatever name and form and faith.....

If one religion is like a dungeon, what chance does an adherent have of seeing the sunlight by following it?

[Eastern Mind]

This analogy does not hold water.
In this case, the difference is between buying an ice-cream vs. buying an ice-cone. It is not only the difference in flavors we are talking about, but the differences in the content of character.



Come to think of it, water does get absorbed by the cone, and it will only hold water temporarily. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Agreed. Dreaming up analogies to explain things isn't my best strength first thing in the morning. The point was we have no right to tell others that they are on a path to moksha, just as they have no right to tell us we're going to hell. What the Abrahamics think has no relevancy to me.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




As I understand, based upon what hindu gurus say, one difference between Hinduism and other faiths is that it does not proclaim that it alone shows the path to liberation.

In this regard I paste the following oft cited teaching:

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/chap6.htm

Om Namah Shivaya

I have read this (kamakoti) several times and am delighted to hear the wise say the following:
When a passenger arrives at a station by train he is besieged by the driver of the horse-cart, by the rikshavala, by the cabbie, and so on. He hires the vehicle in which he likes to be driven to his destination. It cannot be said with reason that those who ply different vehicles are guilty of competing with one another for the fare. After all it is their livelihood. But it makes no sense for the adherents of various faiths to vie with one another to take a man to the one and only destination that is God.

praṇām

[Sahasranama]

A more rational way of looking at things: http://www.dharmacentral.com/universalism.htm

[Ekanta]

I prefer a sophisticated airplane with a good user manual instead of a horse-cart...

[kallol]

Path is same - from birth to death from rebirth to rebirth towards the same goal - moksha.

How we choose to move on that path - bullock cart, cycle, walking, taking rest, car, train or plane - is upto us.

The initial Bhakti development phase and the Karma phase can be different in the different cultures and religions. Even it is hugely different in the believers of Hinduism also.

The slow merging comes at the Jyana phase which is like the Ocean to which all rivers from all directions end.

It is here they start moving closer and closer and ultimately (ideally) meet at the moksha point.

Love and best wishes

[NayaSurya]

There is a wonderfully busy road called 65...and it runs full center directly above a very nice city. Built by the same being who created central park...this being then came to this smaller city and fixed things in such a way that traffic is almost always fairly goodly and it is parsed between beautiful parks which this man also designed. The city is nice and the road is strong, straight and travelled often.

Deep inside the city, from any angle, you can almost always catch sight of 65 over head. Beloved Husband, who very often gets lost is always worried when he loses sight of this large road and I always say..."do not worry...all roads lead to 65."

Well...it seems that way anyway...and generally...without much effort it does.

But, the day came when I realized the flaw in this logic...a day when the road did not lead back to 65. We wound up in the worst, most desperate part of this city...where people are grabbed out of their car at redlights and robbed at gun point. Where innocent people are shot as they drive down the street in their car.

Though the road may seem so clear to those of us upon a path well lit.

To others, the way is still yet dark. There are pitfalls...and perils we can not forsee in the future...they await us most assuredly.

So, though it seems that all roads will lead to this same place of safety...not all roads can or will. It is up to us to get off those lesser roads...with guidance and dilligence...we do.

Those of us born to broken individuals...thrown from religion to religion...the truth was as a shining shelter, which we knew immediately for what it was. Being so long upon the path which was dark, we recognize this higher road very quickly.

As one who has been in a darkened room notices the subtle shift as dawn approaches.

Perhaps it sounds very simplistic to say, but I feel the more dharmic you live, despite whatever lable you give yourself, will be the final indicator of how sucessful you are at relieving yourself from this ridiculous wretched captivity we all suffer from upon this rock.

Can others upon those other paths live with the tenets of Sanatana Dharma? Sure they can, I have known some of those rare beings. I just think the road in which they traverse is very difficult...which makes for it to be such a rarity amongst those other roads.


This mother is not a great scholar, nor a learned holy being...so forgive the simple thoughts I share.

[Harjas Kaur]

Eastern Mind writes:

"I liken it to a family going out for ice cream. Dad likes blueberry ice cream so he buys 7 blueberry ice creams to share."

I find this analogy woefully unrealistic in comparison with the mass genocidal slaughter ideologies such as Islam have promoted for centuries. When people oppose Islam, it isn't on the grounds of spiritual system, but on the fact that it's scriptures and the interpretation of them by it's famous and leading clerics, it's entire historical culture has been nothing but promotion of genocidal destruction of other faiths. Blueberry ice cream indeed. Maybe if you don't look outside your comfort zone to see what the uproar is even about.

http://www.islammonitor.org/images/stories/bangladeshgen.jpg
Bangladesh Massacre, 1971, est. 3,000,000 largely Hindus, ethnically "cleansed", 200,000+ rapes


"It is a “quiet case of ethnic cleansing.” Certainly, the screams of the victims do not make it so; nor does the hatred dripping from the lips of their victimizers. Rather, it is the silence of the “civilized world” that characterizes this terrible atrocity; an atrocity that has been proceeding with little break for decades. Bangladesh’s Hindu population is dying. This is not opinion or the ravings of an ideologue: It is a fact. At the time of India’s partition in 1948, they made up a little less than a third of East Pakistan’s population. When East Pakistan became Bangladesh in 1971, Hindus were less than a fifth; thirty years later, less than one in ten; and several estimates put the current Hindu population at less than eight percent. Professor Sachi Dastidar from the State University of New York estimates that about 40 million Hindus are missing from the Bangladeshi census.

If it is still not clear where this is going, just take a look at Pakistan where Hindus are down to one percent or Kashmir where they are almost gone. Then take a look at the future of Bangladesh’s Hindus if we do not act. For much of that time, there have been regular reports out of Bangladesh documenting anti-Hindu incidents there including murder, gang rape, assault, forced conversion to Islam, child abduction, land grabs, and religious desecration."
Islamists Get a Pass for Ethnic Cleansing by Dr. Richard L. Benkin (http://www.islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3433:islamists-get-a-pass-for-ethnic-cleansing&catid=190&Itemid=59)

http://muktadhara.net/ray1.jpg
" ...........It is now known that on Sunday December 12, as the Indian columns were closing on Dacca....a group of senior Pak army officers and their civilian counterparts met in the city's Presidential residence. They put together the names of 250 peoples to be arrested and killed, including the cream of Dacca's professional circles not already liquidated during the civil war. Their arrests were made on Monday and Tuesday by marked bands of extreme right-wing Muslims belonging to an organization called the Al-Badar Razakar...Only hours before the official surrender was signed (on 16th), the victims were taken in groups to the outskirts of the city......where they were summarily executed........ The Times, December 23, 1971
The Intelligentsia of Bangladesh Liberation Movement (http://muktadhara.net/page07.html)


"People were brought here and bashed, then their ears were cut off, and their eyes gouged out. Finally they were slaughtered... : The Chairman of the Peace Committee was Moulana Solaiman. With Dr. Abul Hussain and Abdul Rashid Mukhtar, he assisted in the genocide. Omar would proudly say, "During the day I am Omar, at night I am Shimar( legendary executioner famous for extreme cruelty). Don't you see my dagger? There are countless Kafirs (heretics) on it." Genocide:71. The second biggest ethnic cleansing of 20th Century (http://muktadhara.net/page35.html)

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Harjas Kaur:

Thank you for the more vivid messages of why radical universalism
is a croc. The us versus them is a mentality that is derived from central writings of the Abrahamics, and your pictures indeed indicated to what degree this belief can go. This is in stark contrast to ahimsa, obviously. Another case of why trying to practise more than one religion at once only leads to deluded confusion.

Thanks again.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Harjas Kaur, thanks for making it more explicit why Hinduism is incongruent with Islam.

There's also the problem that anyone can come up with a religion. Hinduism has boundaries, we can't indiscriminately accept the teachings of other religions. Someone could turn Walt Disney in a religion and claim that you can reach moksha by reading the kathamrita of Donald Duck, chanting the names of Mickey Mouse and going to pilgrimage in Disney Land. Seems silly, doesn't it?

[Harjas Kaur]

Eastern Mind writes:

"The current ethnic cleansing that has been going on and continues in Sri Lanka pits 'Buddhists' versus Hindus. Ethnic cleansing has to be one of the gravest problems for mankind."

Dear, are you insinuating that Buddhism and Hinduism teach ethnic cleansing the way in which Islam does? If you believe so, kindly don't spout outrageous opinions but validate your assumptions with fact. Put up or shut up! SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE!~

Mind you, Hindu Dharma legitimizes military force in SELF-DEFENSE. And unfortunately there are political people in every community who agitate on basis of communal politics. ISLAM is unique in all the world for politicizing RELIGION and making COMMUNAL POLTICS an article of FAITH.

HENCE MY OBJECTION THAT ISLAM CANNOT BE A TEACHING OF BHAGAVAN KRISHNA NOR CAN MOHAMMED BE HIS PROPHET!~

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I humbly bow out of this conversation then. I do not wish to anger anyone.

Aum Namasivaya

[ScottMalaysia]

Krishna does say in the Bhagavad-Gita (7:21-22) that whatever form a devotee worships, Krishna makes the devotee's faith steady and he receives what he desires, which is actually being ordained by Krishna.

So if one decided to worship God as Elvis or Michael Jackson, would Krishna's promise still apply?

[Harjas Kaur]

And for this reason, for example, Shri Guru Granth Sahib says the conception of God, Allah of the Muslims is the same as the conception of God, Rama for the Hindus. GOD IS GOD, and even as understanding of Him varies dramatically Sanatana Dharma NOWHERE deprives Islam of a legitimate belief in God. But NOWHERE do the Sikh Guru Sahibaan ELEVATE AL-ISLAM as a religious PATH as equal to the Dharma, and point out in a number of places where it has been cruel. NOR ANYWHERE CLAIM that MOHAMMED is His PROPHET or even that Quran is a holy book!~

Moreover Bhagavan Krishna says who worships SINCERELY in whatever form is coming closer to BHAGAVAN. And in no way should this be misconstrued to effect that murderous doctrines and intolerant teachings which justify rape and genocide and forced conversions are ANY EQUIVALENT of Sanatana Dharma!

So it cannot be correct, moreover IN THIS VERY THREAD has already been shown Shruti of Sanatana Dharma WARNS AGAINST following certain paths as those lead to HORROR. And I can think of no other path but that one which justified Adharma which would create that end result.

And EVEN IN THIS, while I believe legitimately in hell realms created by our karmas, THEY ARE NOT PERMANENT. Nor are they punishment for unbelievers, rather a description of the just punishment for evil-doing. AND EVEN AFTER SOJOURN IN HELL REALMS, the bhoots and prets can obtain liberation. SO Bhagavan Krishna's words are beyond question the literal truth of it and in no way JUSTIFICATION OR EQUIVALENCE that evil-doing/ADHARMA is a road which leads to the same end as the practice of Dharma!

[Eric11235]

Vannakam EM:

Yes, I believed in my rashness and ego, I set off a rather large can of worms. At this point, having reduced my ego day by day, I feel posting my beliefs would go against humility and kindness to others (Ironic, very much). However I do feel a need to say this about my original post: When I say every path leads to the same end, I do not mean to intend that that path is illuminated, that the path is agreeable to all. I'm just saying that if you follow any path it all leads to Brahman and dissolution of the consciousness into the universe.

Take for example, Suicide bombers. For most of the world, this is an atrocity of great gravity and evil. I believe that it is wrong as well. But take a look from the perspective of those doing it. They have not necessarily been brainwashed by al-qaeda, or Hamas or other extremist groups. In Israel (learning this from my sociology textbook) the palestinians do not simply become suicide bombers for the sole purpose of attaining paradise, there are other factors that come into play. there is the concept of revenge, and of course there is the celebrity among those who believe that the bombers are doing the right thing. It is as Durkheim put it "altruistic suicide" whether it be good or bad is all a matter of perspective.

Now of course there are exceptions, for example, Hitler, he was by all accounts a very amoral, sociopathic man, who had too much ambition and intolerance, and not enough understanding. Because of this, the Shoah (more commonly known as the Holocaust) occurred. Genocide is unforgivable. And if Stanley Milgrams experiment is any indication, then sometimes people will leave their comfort zone in the face of high authority. So the people who lived in germany, the Nazis. Were they all evil? Some maybe, but not all, some were forced into this work.

And then there is the stanford prison experiment, which proved that role taking can cause some serious changes in personality (the guards became brutal and the prisoners, apathetic).

But I am digressing. the point I am trying to make is that the moral high road, or the true path is different for everybody, even if only minutely. The differences of belief will inevitably lead to conflict (which this thread has proven) I believe that Sanatana Dharma is one of the most fully realized and complete religions that exists as it is not just terra-centric. It has all encompassing beliefs and is truly a religion which is diverse, yet accepting.

I apologize if people misinterpreted my words to mean that all paths are prosperous and good. I simply stated that they are right for the person on it, which should be distinguished from good. I hope that isn't too contradictory and/or long winded and/or completely off topic. I haven't checked this post in days mainly because I am afraid of what I'll find. So please, let us just stop arguing about this.

Namaste

[Harjas Kaur]

If people stop arguing about things, then nobody would ever learn or hammer out a better understanding of things. Thanks for your clarification. In my experience confronting the errors of strict pacifism and radical universalism and Muslim appeasement are critical for the well-being and continued existence of Hindu society.

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I am surprised so much water has flown into this thread in just one day when my broadband connection was down!

This thread is similar to the thread 'Hindu Universalism' that saw copious arguments:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4982

Many of us quote KAnchi ParamAchArya out of context, trying to read our own thoughts of Hindu Universalism in his teachings. Here is a summary of some main points of his teachings in chapter 6 and 7, which could help us grasp the message of the seer's teachings:

• All religions have one common ideal, worship of the Lord, and all of them proclaim that there is but one God. This one God accepts your devotion irrespective of the manner of your worship, whether it is according to this or that religion. So there is no need to abandon the religion of your birth and embrace another. ... the Paramatman who wants to grace the worshipper, whatever be his faith, is the same.

The key words here are 'worship' and 'grace', and this teaching is as much to non-Hindus as it is to Hindus.

• Why do people embrace a new faith? Is it not because that the continuance in the religion of their birth would mean a denial of the blessings of the God of the new faith to which they are attracted? This means that they place limitations on their new religion as well as on its God. When they convert (from Hindu Dharma) to a new religion, apparently out of respect for it, they indeed dishonour it.

This is more a teaching for Hindus who are influenced by the conversion efforts of the Western religions than to a non-Hindu becoming a Hindu. The key word is the religion of their birth, whose implication IMO is more for Hindus than for non-Hindus.

Why should it be so? Because the AchArya in the succeeding paragraphs speaks of how Hinduism is the only faith that "does not proclaim that it alone shows the path to liberation", and that

• Our Vedic religion alone has not practiced conversion and the reason for it is that our forefathers were well aware that all religions are nothing but different paths to realise the one and only Paramatman.

In that very paragraph, the AchArya says emphatically:

• This is the reason why the Hindus have not practiced--like adherents of other religions- proselytisation and religious persecution. Nor have they waged anything like the crusades or jehads.

This could only mean that the AchArya does NOT approve of the doctrines and methods of the Western religions, which in turn means that since their motive and methods are wrong, their path cannot be right, because although Paramatman is one, these religions do not have faith that the One God they perceive can have other names and forms (like our Vedic seers had).

In the next paragraph, the AchArya says:

• All historians accept the fact of our religious tolerance. They observe that, an empire like Srivijaya was established in the East, people there accepted our culture and our way of life willingly, not because they were imposed on them by force. They further remark that Hinduism spread through trade and not through force.

This means that he accepts non-Hindus of their own volition seeking Hinduism as their faith today, so his earlier talk about a man forsaking the religion of his birth is meant for the Hindus who seek to convert.

It would be a serious mistake IMO to quote selectively from other paragraphs of this article, with no reference to the last paragraph wherein he says (emphasis added):

• That the beliefs and customs of the various religions are different cannot be a cause for complaint. Nor is there any need to make all of them similar. The important thing is for the followers of the various faiths to live in harmony with one another. The goal must be unity, not uniformity.

In this concluding paragraph, the AchArya sums up all his earlier points:

• that there is only One God who is worshipped in all religions
• that the names and forms of God are widely different across religions
• that the practices of worship are different, but God accepts them all
• whatever the religion, liberation is purely by God's grace
• that the aggression of Western religions towards enforcing uniformity are wrong and adharmic.
• that the real goal must be unity because the ultimate goal of religions is the One God.

Later on, under other topics, the AchArya teaches:

• The decay of a religion in any country could be attributed to the lack of character of its leaders and of the people constituting the establishment responsible for its growth.

• We must not censure those who convert people to their faith. They believe that their religion represents the highest truth. That is why they practice conversion by compulsion or by placing various temptations before people belonging to other faiths. Let us take it that they try to bring others into their fold because they believe that that is the only means of a man's salvation.

This only shows that the AchArya does not doubt the belief behind the doctrines and efforts of conversion, although it may be wrong. This does not imply that we must blindly succumb to such efforts, only that we need to counter the situation spiritually rather than by physical aggression.

• If religions that resort neither to force nor to money power have grown, it is solely because of the noble qualities of their teachers.

• If a militant proselytizer appears on the scene, I shall not be able to gather a force to combat him. Nor can I spend crores and crores like those religious propagandists who build schools and hospitals to entice people into their faith. Even if I were able to do so, conversions carried out in such a manner would be neither true nor enduring. We should not, therefore, depend on such outward forces to promote our religion but instead rely on our Atmic strength to raise ourselves. In this manner our religion will flourish without any need for aggressive propaganda or the offer of inducements.

This is the solution the AchArya offers, which he reiterates in the concluding paragraphs:

• But the common people need the example of a great soul, a great life [not abstract principles].
• A man of peace and compassion, a man of wisdom and self-sacrifice, must arise from our midst.

Thus, IMHO, KAnchi ParamAchArya does not advocate 'Radical Universalism', since he obviously disapproves of proselytisation and religious persecution, and says that we must encounter them spiritually by raising ourselves rather than physically fighting them.

**********

[atanu]

Krishna does say in the Bhagavad-Gita (7:21-22) that whatever form a devotee worships, Krishna makes the devotee's faith steady and he receives what he desires, which is actually being ordained by Krishna.

So if one decided to worship God as Elvis or Michael Jackson, would Krishna's promise still apply?

Namaste Scott

Thank you for bringing some real questions.

Not all worship are equal and neither all yield same result. . Shri Krishna says: 7.21. Whatsoever form any devotee desires to worship with faith—that (same) faith of his I make firm and unflinching. It is obvious that the result is as per faith. If the vision and wants are limited the fruit also will be same. Thus it is not actually good to get stuck on a limited aim. The same is said in Veda, when it teaches that one contemplating on Indra with scattered mind intensifies the same scattering. Below is a collection on the subject from Gita.




Sarvabhootasthitam yo maam bhajatyekatwamaasthitah;
Sarvathaa vartamaano’pi sa yogee mayi vartate.
6.31. He who, being established in unity, worships Me who dwells in all beings,—that Yogi abides in Me, whatever may be his mode of living.

Yoginaamapi sarveshaam madgatenaantaraatmanaa;
Shraddhaavaan bhajate yo maam sa me yuktatamo matah.
6. 47. And among all the Yogis, he who, full of faith and with his inner self merged in Me, worships Me, he is deemed by Me to be the most devout.

Yo yo yaam yaam tanum bhaktah shraddhayaarchitum icchati;
Tasya tasyaachalaam shraddhaam taameva vidadhaamyaham.
7. 21. Whatsoever form any devotee desires to worship with faith—that (same) faith of his I make firm and unflinching.

Antavattu phalam teshaam tadbhavatyalpamedhasaam;
Devaan devayajo yaanti madbhaktaa yaanti maamapi.
7. 23. Verily the reward (fruit) that accrues to those men of small intelligence is finite. The worshippers of the gods go to them, but My devotees come to Me.

Mahaatmaanastu maam paartha daiveem prakritimaashritaah;
Bhajantyananyamanaso jnaatwaa bhootaadimavyayam.
9.13. But the great souls, O Arjuna, partaking of My divine nature, worship Me with a single mind (with the mind devoted to nothing else), knowing Me as the imperishable source of beings!

Ye’pyanyadevataa bhaktaa yajante shraddhayaa’nvitaah;
Te’pi maameva kaunteya yajantyavidhipoorvakam.
9. 23. Even those devotees who, endowed with faith, worship other gods, worship Me only, O Arjuna, but by the wrong method!

Samo’ham sarvabhooteshu na me dweshyo’sti na priyah;
Ye bhajanti tu maam bhaktyaa mayi te teshu chaapyaham.
9.29. The same am I to all beings; to Me there is none hateful or dear; but those who worship Me with devotion are in Me and I am also in them.

Api chet suduraachaaro bhajate maamananyabhaak;
Saadhureva sa mantavyah samyagvyavasito hi sah.
9.30. Even if the most sinful worships Me, with devotion to none else, he too should indeed be regarded as righteous, for he has rightly resolved.

Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate;
Iti matwaa bhajante maam budhaa bhaavasamanvitaah.
10. 8. I am the source of all; from Me everything evolves; understanding thus, the wise, endowed with meditation, worship Me.

Yajante saattwikaa devaan yaksharakshaamsi raajasaah;
Pretaan bhootaganaamshchaanye yajante taamasaa janaah.
17. 4. The Sattwic or pure men worship the gods; the Rajasic or the passionate worship the Yakshas and the Rakshasas; the others (the Tamasic or the deluded) worship the ghosts and the hosts of nature-spirits.

Yatah pravrittirbhootaanaam yena sarvamidam tatam;
Swakarmanaa tamabhyarchya siddhim vindati maanavah.
18.46. He from whom all the beings have evolved and by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, man attains perfection.

Adhyeshyate cha ya imam dharmyam samvaadamaavayoh;
Jnaanayajnena tenaaham ishtah syaamiti me matih.
18. 70. And he who will study this sacred dialogue of ours, by him I shall have been worshipped by the sacrifice of wisdom; such is My conviction.


But conviction of Unity - Sarvabhootasthitam (6.31), faith that Lord is omnipresent and impartial (9.29), from whom all beings have evolved (10. 8 and 18.46); and a undivided worshipful mind of yogi (9.13) are taught as highest mode of worship.

Om Namah Shivaya

[satay]

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