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rkannan1
06 November 2006, 11:52 PM
Om Namo Narayanaya Om
Om Shri Gurubhyo Namah

Namo Brahmane, Namaste Vayo, Tvameva Pratyaksam Brahmasmi, Tvameva Pratyaksam Brahma Vadisyami, Rtam Vadisyami, Satyam vadisyami, Tanmamavatu, Tadvaktaramavatu, Avatu mam, Avatu Vaktaram.(Taittiriya Upansihad 1.1.2)

Salutataions to Supreme Brahman, Salutations to Vayu (Mukhyaprana), you are verily the visible(perceptible) or manifest Brahman, I say you are the only perceptible Brahman, I say the right thing, I say the Truth, Let this protect me and also the speaker of this truth, let me be protected as also one who utters this truth.
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This is one of the works of Vadiraja Swami, NyAyaratnAvali. It is taken from one of the Ph.D. works (I guess) of L. Stafford Betty, who translated and commented on this work. Ths is titled as "Vadiraja's Refutation of Sankara's non-dualism: Clearing the way for Theism".

I just wanted to give the reference before I write anything from here.

Vadiraja Swami is one of the great teachers in the line of Madhvacharya. In taratamya (gradation of Devatas), he is equal to Mukhyaprana(higher than RudrA). He is an avatara of Latavya(mula rupa of Vadiraja Swami). His Bridavana is located in Swadi, North Canara district of Karnataka. The following link gives some details about his life.


http://www.dvaita.org/images/VADIRAJA2.JPG

http://www.dvaita.org/scholars/vadiraja/

rkannan1
07 November 2006, 02:53 AM
Vadiraja Swami starts his work with praise of Sriman Narayana and then followed by praise of Mukhyaprana (Madhvacharya). I will not quote all the points mentioned by Swamijee here.

Then he follows by showing Bhagavan's majesty from Sruti Vakyas which he uses as ballast for his following arguments.

satyßH sˇ asya mahimaß(Rg Veda 8.3.4)
His majesty is TRUE

Svetasvatara Upanishad(6.8)
His knowledge, strength and action are described as inherent in Him.

Here the first sruti confirms that Bhagavan's attributes or mahimaas are eternal, unlike claims of advaita where it says attributes are illusion.

Second Sruti confirms that Bhagavan has attributes like knowledge, power and activity.

Put one and two together, one can see that attributes in point 2 are eternal.

Miscellaneous:
This part is my addition
Here one has to remember that RudrA mentioned in Svetasvatara in not Umapati.

This is confirmed from Shatapataha Brahmana verses where Umapati RudrA himself confirms by saying that he is "anapahatapaapama"

In addition in Brihadaranyaka Upansihad, RudrA(umapati) is mentioned as waiting/attending and worshipping (upatisthante) Mukhyaprana. One cannot give any other meaning to the word upatisthante here in this context. This is clear from the very first verse quoted below, that one who knows the calf(mukhyaprana) overcomes seven enemies. It is clear that Mukhyaprana is the main subject of these verses, and by knowing him one overcomes the enemies. The seven enemies are our 5 senses, mind and intellect ie. abhimani asuras of these. Thus RudrA attends and worships Mukhyaprana. This shows all other Devatas depend on Mukhyaprana, with the exception of Sriman Narayana and Lakshmi.

Shishu BrAhmanam of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

1. He who knows the calf together with its abode, its special resort, its post and its rope, kills his seven hostile kinsmen. The vital breath(Mukhyaprana) in the body is indeed the calf; this body is its abode, the head its special resort, strength its post and food its rope.

2. These seven gods that prevent decay worship it (the calf): through these pink lines in the eye, Rudra attends(clings) on it; through the water in the eye, Parjanya attends/clings on it; through the pupil of the eye, the sun attends on it; through the black of the eye, fire attends on it; through the white portion, Indra; through the lower eyelid, the earth; and through the upper eyelid, heaven(Dyu) attends on it. He who knows this—his food does not diminish.

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I will post daily some part. More tommorow.

sarabhanga
07 November 2006, 06:19 AM
pibā sutasya rasino matsvā na indra gomataḥ |
āpirno bodhi sadhamādyo vṛdhe'smāavantu te dhiyaḥ | 8.3.1 |

bhūyāma te sumatau vājino vayammā na starabhimātaye |
asmā˝citrābhiravatādabhiṣṭibhirā naḥ sumneṣu yāmaya | 8.3.2 |

imā u tvā purūvaso giro vardhantu yā mama |
pāvakavarṇāḥ śucayo vipaścito'bhi stomairanūṣata | 8.3.3 |

ayaṁ sahasramṛṣibhiḥ sahaskṛtaḥ samudra iva paprathe |
satyaḥ so asya mahimā gṛṇe śavo yaj˝eṣu viprarājye | 8.3.4 |

indramiddevatātaya indramprayatyadhvare |
indraṁ samīke vanino havāmaha indraṁ dhanasya sātaye | 8.3.5 |

indro mahnā rodasī paprathacchava indraḥ sūryamarocayat |
indre ha viśvā bhuvanāni yemira indre suvānāsa indavaḥ | 8.3.6 |

abhi tvā pūrvapītaya indra stomebhirāyavaḥ |
samīcīnāsa ṛbhavaḥ samasvaranrudrā gṛṇanta pūrvyam | 8.3.7 |


1. Drink, indra, of the savory juice, and cheer thee with our milky draught.
Be, for our weal, our friend and sharer of the feast, and let thy wisdom guard us well

2. In thy kind grace and favor may we still be strong: expose us not to foe’s attack.
With manifold assistance guard and succor us, and bring us to felicity.

3. May these my songs of praise exalt thee (indra) who hast abundant wealth.
Men skilled in holy hymns, pure, with the hues of fire, have sung them with their lauds to thee.

4. He (i.e. indra), with his might enhanced by RSis thousand-fold, hath like an ocean spread himself.
His greatness is praised as true at solemn rites, his power where holy singers rule.

5. indra for worship of the gods, indra while sacrifice proceeds,
indra, as worshippers at the close of the rite, we call, indra that we may win the spoil.

6. With might hath indra spread out heaven and earth, with power hath indra lighted up the sun.
In indra are all creatures closely held; in him meet the distilling soma-drops.

7. Men with their lauds are urging thee, indra, to drink the soma first.
The Rbhus in accord have lifted up their voice, and rudras sung thee as the first.



satyaḥ so asya mahimā gṛṇe śavo yaj˝eṣu viprarājye

“His greatness (majesty or glory) is praised as true at solemn rites, his power where holy singers rule.”

Here, the true greatness of indra is confirmed.

And the shvetashvataropaniSad refers to the inherent (but unexpressed) qualities of the brahman.

rkannan1
07 November 2006, 04:54 PM
1. Drink, indra, of the savory juice, and cheer thee with our milky draught.
Be, for our weal, our friend and sharer of the feast, and let thy wisdom guard us well......///////
4. He (i.e. indra), with his might enhanced by RSis thousand-fold, hath like an ocean spread himself.
His greatness is praised as true at solemn rites, his power where holy singers rule.

5. indra for worship of the gods, indra while sacrifice proceeds,
indra, as worshippers at the close of the rite, we call, indra that we may win the spoil.

6. With might hath indra spread out heaven and earth, with power hath indra lighted up the sun.
In indra are all creatures closely held; in him meet the distilling soma-drops.

7. Men with their lauds are urging thee, indra, to drink the soma first.
The Rbhus in accord have lifted up their voice, and rudras sung thee as the first.



satyaḥ so asya mahimā gṛṇe śavo yaj˝eṣu viprarājye

“His greatness (majesty or glory) is praised as true at solemn rites, his power where holy singers rule.”

Here, the true greatness of indra is confirmed.

And the shvetashvataropaniSad refers to the inherent (but unexpressed) qualities of the brahman.

Dear Sarabhanga,

If you can do a deeper study of Vedas, than external/superficial study, please do not write nonsense.

1. Indra Deva(Saci Pati) mentioned in Kena Upanishad, overcome with pride is different from Indra mentioned here. Indra mentioned here Supreme Narayana. Read the translations you provided fully and analyze it taking the whole picture of Vedas.

2. Even if one assumes fallaciously as you do, still attributes of Indra is stated as TRUE(Satya), which disproves advaita anyway.

3. Inherent or unexpressed attributes are none the less attributes of Lord anyway, while advaita holds that Brahman is without any attributes(Nirguna). Please read what Shankara taught regarding Nirguna Brahman. In this case it still disproves advaita.

No matter how you look at this, advaita holds no water as per he two Srutis.

Now stop posting based on instinctive defensiveness and please do not clog this thread with your superficial study.

sarabhanga
08 November 2006, 04:20 AM
Hmmm. When the Vedas mention Indra, the true meaning is Narayana; and when the Upanishads mention Brahman, the true meaning is Narayana; therefore Advaita is disproved. :Roll:

rkannan1
08 November 2006, 08:33 PM
Hmmm. When the Vedas mention Indra, the true meaning is Narayana; and when the Upanishads mention Brahman, the true meaning is Narayana; therefore Advaita is disproved. :Roll:

I wonder how it proves advaita ? :dunno:

Would you care to explain ?

Saying Someone(Narayana) has multiple names is not equal to saying that two people(Narayana who is called Indra and the Devata Indra) with same names are identical. I thought one would understand this simple logic with reference to Kena Upanishad where it says Devata Indra(saci pati) is different from the Indra mentioned in these verses.

Pramana is available through Visvakarma Sukta and Bhallaveya Sruti for my claim.

So much for intellectual capacity of advaita followers. :Roll:

atanu
18 November 2006, 01:07 AM
I wonder how it proves advaita ? :dunno:

Would you care to explain ?

Saying Someone(Narayana) has multiple names is not equal to saying that two people(Narayana who is called Indra and the Devata Indra) with same names are identical. I thought one would understand this simple logic with reference to Kena Upanishad where it says Devata Indra(saci pati) is different from the Indra mentioned in these verses.

Pramana is available through Visvakarma Sukta and Bhallaveya Sruti for my claim.

So much for intellectual capacity of advaita followers. :Roll:



He he. Intellectual capacity? I bow down to yours. Remain blissful with this compliment. I am genuine.

But Brahman is beyond and Eko. And Mukhya prana is an exotosis of the Eko atma.


Just as an aside. Eko Rudra is sarva also. So, this Eko Rudra of Vedas is different from the being who is the redness of the eye. Ha . Ha. I just follow your guidance to extrapolate from the point where you say that there are several Narayanas. He He.

So, Advaita is disproved. He he. That is intellectual capacity??????????////

Another aside. Please show Vallbheya shruti from Rig Samhita.


Regards,

satay
18 November 2006, 11:48 AM
Please show Vallbheya shruti from Rig Samhita.


Regards,

Admin Note:

namaste,
Mr. rkannan1 is unable to reply to your query. I have banned his id for insulting sarabhanga and breaking the forum rules after repeated warnings.

Thanks,

kans
26 June 2009, 08:27 AM
Admin Note:

namaste,
Mr. rkannan1 is unable to reply to your query. I have banned his id for insulting sarabhanga and breaking the forum rules after repeated warnings.

Thanks,

rkannan1 was right speaker.His arguments were completely correct and i didnt see in his replys any argue words as you Moderator mind.In this thread he was alone corrector and this is very sadness that right words are under pressing from sentimental ignorance.

grames
02 September 2009, 01:39 AM
Dear Satay,

Not sure how or what is "insulting" here? Why should you ban someone who is in fact posting something that is clearly under the topic Dvaita and in fact, as an admin you should have not encouraged any debate/arguments here either from Sarabhanga or Atanu etc. Dvaita topic should be encouraged for Dvaita related information and not some mere arguments.


I would personally request you to lift the ban and please encourage people to share their knowledge under relevant topics with out disturbances.

For any argument, debate may be we should have a different thread or topic altogether.




Admin Note:

namaste,
Mr. rkannan1 is unable to reply to your query. I have banned his id for insulting sarabhanga and breaking the forum rules after repeated warnings.

Thanks,

grames
02 September 2009, 01:45 AM
I will just give an analogy here....

So, just how you believe that "Advaita" is disapproved after just reading RKannan1's post alone and made a sarcastic comment, the truth is not just that. :)

Advaita may not be the right understanding of Vedanta as per dvaita philosophy but for many more reasons and they are not mere sentimental or emotional justification of few unqualified people.

But the point is, YES in shruti vakyas, it is Lord Vishnu or Lord Narayana who bears all the names and only the contextual understanding of what such a name refer to as in the subject will give you identity of the actual person. It is not a secret and i believe it is not that you are unaware of. If you are unaware of it, then it is a different topic to discuss altogether.

Just my opinion...



Hmmm. When the Vedas mention Indra, the true meaning is Narayana; and when the Upanishads mention Brahman, the true meaning is Narayana; therefore Advaita is disproved. :Roll:

Kumar_Das
12 July 2010, 06:21 PM
Hmmm. When the Vedas mention Indra, the true meaning is Narayana; and when the Upanishads mention Brahman, the true meaning is Narayana; therefore Advaita is disproved. :Roll:

Vaishnava Dvaita/Vishishdvaita:

Indra = Narayana. Purusha = Narayana. Brahman = Narayana. Paramatman = Narayana. Ishwara = Narayana. Bhagwan = Narayana.

Shaiva Dvaita/Vishishdvaita:

same but replace with Shiva and add Agni = Shiva

Shaiva Monism:

Shiva = All in All

Looks like people are ignorant of what Rishis like Agastya and Markandeya were trying to convey.