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kallol
06 October 2010, 07:49 AM
We hear Buddha is enlightened one and so are many like Ramana, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, etc.

What it might be ? How can one achieve this and what comes out of it ?

Is this a standard phenomenon (with common outcome) ?

Love and best wishes :)

Onkara
06 October 2010, 08:08 AM
Namasté Kallol
My personal angel on this most fascinating topic is that enlightenment is not an experience, but no word but “experience” comes close to describing the significant change it implies. I do not believe it is an experience because an experience typically has a start and an end, like the experience of a first kiss. Enlightenment, from the Advaitin perspective is the removal of ignorance (advidya) so enlightenment is really a return to our pure pristine state of being before it was “covered” by ignorance, more than something which has a start or end.

How to achieve this and what comes out of it?
Briefly I would say it is achieved through surrender to the divine, all pervading Supreme Being, but that surrender must be accompanied by clear understanding. That clear understanding is that which Gurus and Scriptures gift us with. The result is liberation from any temporary suffering and clarity in the value and marvel of life.

As to its commonness, I would have to refer back to my initial paragraph and state that as it has no start and no end, it likewise is not limited to a count of human bodies. Rather is it so common that one may overlook it, forget it in the heights of debate, desire or pain and even deny it for themselves in favor of a “false god”.

kallol
07 October 2010, 12:25 AM
Dear Snip,

Enlightenment is definitely the removal of the ignorance and cultivating / knowing the TRUTH.

We follow the scriptures and gurus generally for this. The how and what part of it has been rightly said. This is the general path.

Again the question remains. The scriptures are the knowledges out of one's mind. This is a general phenomenon. Any discovery, any invention any book is out of one's mind.

So are the scriptures. Now how did these spiritual scientists of history get this knowledge ?

Ramakrishna / Vivekananda / Aurobindo / Ramana / etc - all were scripture illiterate. Then how did they get the same knowledge ? (common outcome). Actually there are many saints like them (even ordinary people) who have gone through the experience.

Is there any thing in the scripture on this ?

Love and best wishes

upsydownyupsy mv ss
07 October 2010, 03:43 AM
Dear Snip,

Enlightenment is definitely the removal of the ignorance and cultivating / knowing the TRUTH.

We follow the scriptures and gurus generally for this. The how and what part of it has been rightly said. This is the general path.

Again the question remains. The scriptures are the knowledges out of one's mind. This is a general phenomenon. Any discovery, any invention any book is out of one's mind.

So are the scriptures. Now how did these spiritual scientists of history get this knowledge ?

Ramakrishna / Vivekananda / Aurobindo / Ramana / etc - all were scripture illiterate. Then how did they get the same knowledge ? (common outcome). Actually there are many saints like them (even ordinary people) who have gone through the experience.

Is there any thing in the scripture on this ?

Love and best wishes

Interesting question...
Love that question Kallol! I want to hug you!:grouphug:

The answer lies in you're question itself. How did you get this question? The same way they became enlightened, you are on the verge of elightenment.
Ask question, get the answer and verify it, Repeat the process. So simple, yet so effective. Wait.... How was the question put forward in the first place? Ahaa!! You love god and you are a dharmic(here dharmic means one who is righteous.) and you have the power to use the gift of intellectuality.
But wait again! Who gifted this? Of course! You know who did this mischief don't you? :crazy:
:goodpost:

kallol
07 October 2010, 11:01 PM
In buddhism they talk about the Zen approach where the the enlightenment is by accident.

It is possible that Buddha, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna or others did not have knowledge of that experience. Due to their intense quest of knowledge and longing for some answer, they could unknowingly (without expectations) reached that ocean of knowledge.

It might be possible that some of the mebers might also have this experience to certain extent.

I have seen my grandmother going into samadhi for 2 days. We thought se became senseless and admitted her to hospital. But after she came back from samadhi, she narrated what happened.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
08 October 2010, 01:56 AM
Hello Kallol
I can see the angle you wish to explore. :)

Enlightenment has the quality of knowing itself. It can be obscured but not denied. Because enlightenment is realisation of our Self then we are only confirming what we already are. This is why I hold that it is not an experience. It is not an experience because we are already are the Self.

Although states such as samadhi exist, they too exist in the Self. So they may confirm to our mind that we are in fact the Self (Brahman) and that person is left knowing that one was Brahman even before samadhi, all that has changed is the acknowledgement (or enlightenment) of that very fact. I hold that samadhi is not a requirement for enlightenment, however samadhi may occour and later one may come to be certain of the Truth through scriptural or Guru's confirmation or one may know it at the time of samadhi (or just after).

The point is that all experiences and events occur within the foundation of Brahman and we are already that Brahman, which is beyond the transient world of senses, memories and experience.

I do not know what Buddha, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna knew before or after samadhi, however I feel from what I have read of them that they could have known enough about Sanatana Dharma and moskha to recognise It.

kallol
08 October 2010, 02:20 AM
Thanks again Snip.

That there are existences of sudden accidental enlightenment and the outcome (i.e. the experience) being of similar nature makes the phenomenon more universal than specific to one culture or religion.

The acceptance of it and the encouragement towards the same through knowledge (scriptural, etc) and practice (yoga, meditation, etc) helps the practisioners achieve the self realisation through this kind of enlightenment. This enlightenement helps in shortening the assimilation of the mind and body in the scriptural knowledge, which is the aim of the scriptures. Thereby it accelerates towards the moksha.

Now when is this phenomenon gifted (apparently accidental) ?

Is it for the mind which is rich in knowledge and is constantly pursuing this knowledge ? If yes then When does the mind start looking inside without expectations (at which level of knowledge will it come) ?

Definitely with the knowledge filled mind, the enlightenment can be better appreciated and experienced. Possibly with the constant practice of taking the mind to that point, the samadhis can be reached, thereby preparing oneself to ideal mokhsa stage.

However these accidental enlightenment can also come in next life out of the pursuance of knowledge in previous life. Here again it helps in taking the scriptural knowledge as fish to water. It becomes so natural to him.

Now the next interesting point is the commonality in the experience. What does it mean ? And what it feels like ?

Love and best wishes

Onkara
08 October 2010, 02:40 AM
Namasté Kallol
You are raising some sophisticated points, which I feel you may have explored yourself also :) So let me add if I can...

The reason I think you know already (from this thread alone) is based on your question of "enlightenment being gifted?". You have already asserted in this question that it cannot be anything that we can get without it being given.

In my above posts I explain that it cannot be "got" because it is already our fundamental being-ness and all that stops us from enlightenment is the veil of ignorance (avidya). If we want to answer the question of the role of the mind in this enlightenment, then we can make the mind an active part of the search.

The mind then is that which actively seeks to answer all its questions and in doing so finally becomes passive in that it can no longer question itself out of knowing its true Self (i.e. enlightenment). This is the point of "sudden accidental enlightenment". It is the gentle but profound "Ahh, so this is It!" which remains for evermore.

From the outlook, it appears that an individual Buddha or Ramakrishna has changed or had a sudden accidental enlightenment. This too appears as a gift, as one moment the individual is without and the next they are richer than a billionaire. :)


Now the next interesting point is the commonality in the experience. What does it mean ? And what it feels like ?
We are told that Brahman is impossible to put into words, but in which way is it? It is impossible to explain Brahman, but yet for the enlightened ones life goes on and so there is still something to speak about. What we can speak about is how life is from the perspective.

kallol
08 October 2010, 03:47 AM
Dear Snip,

It is coming up nicely. The reason I said "gifted" is that for any effect there are two aspect - prayatna (our effort) and the kripa (blessings). It is our ignorance of our past deeds, the circumstances we do, the effect of other parameters (which are also affecting the future) make it necessary that we need blessings for the effect to be right.

The mind (because it is the I/O port for communications between senses and intellect and intellect to action points) is the only visible part (computer screen) of the inner body which helps us understand the processing of the intellect. It also helps intellect to judge whether the path is correct. But to do this the mind has to be enough clam and unwavering.

In normal circumstances - generally as we get the knowledge from the scriptures regarding the end point called moksha, there is always an expectation point set in the mind. Even if we meditate hard and able to educate the mind to behave in a particular manner, the subtle expectations (which might not be apparent) cloud the mind and the intellect will not be able to see through that.

But again through constant sadhana and at the point of lost hope (the expectations become zero) - as it happened with Buddha, Ramakrishna, Rama, etc - the door suddenly opens to the knowledge ocean. That way these are accidental and not deliberate.

I have already mentioned about the limit to which our understanding of Brahman can be. It is only upto the reflection of the Brahman through this mind-mirror. Beyond that there is no vehicle to take the intellect and the mind.

This realisation / enlightenement also has several stages. It depends on continual sadhanas, mental knowledge, eagerness and also the humility.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
08 October 2010, 04:22 AM
Dear Snip,

It is coming up nicely. The reason I said "gifted" is that for any effect there are two aspect - prayatna (our effort) and the kripa (blessings). It is our ignorance of our past deeds, the circumstances we do, the effect of other parameters (which are also affecting the future) make it necessary that we need blessings for the effect to be right.

But again through constant sadhana and at the point of lost hope (the expectations become zero) - as it happened with Buddha, Ramakrishna, Rama, etc - the door suddenly opens to the knowledge ocean. That way these are accidental and not deliberate.

I have already mentioned about the limit to which our understanding of Brahman can be. It is only upto the reflection of the Brahman through this mind-mirror. Beyond that there is no vehicle to take the intellect and the mind.

This realisation / enlightenement also has several stages. It depends on continual sadhanas, mental knowledge, eagerness and also the humility.

Love and best wishes

Namaste Kallol
Interesting. My perspective is much more fatalistic in that what ever actions "I" peformed in previous lifes or early life may have lead me to this position of devotional gratitude today, but it is nothing I did to get here so to speak. Rather everything "I" did was because "I" did it, in retrospect.

I desired to know the answers and I submitted completely to Brahman. But on submission I found that there was only the working of the mind system i.e. ahankarah etc. for this reason I do not deny that there are rayatna (our effort) and the kripa (blessings), but the highest blessing is to realise that all effort was just a part of Her lila.

I agree with limits, my impression is the limits are caused by the internal perception of remaining ignorance or doubts. These too come to an end.

Slightly different to your good self, I do not see the place of stages of realisation, unless it is to be explained as convincing glimpses of the truth but returning to state of feeling that realisation is not at hand. Clearly the ultimate state is knowing this realisation, without doubt or confusion popping back in to obscure the inner view.

kallol
08 October 2010, 05:06 AM
Dear Snip,

Thanks for the indicators. I means body-mind complex and "I" means the reflection of Brahman within this body mind complex.

This confusion of determing the which nature of I is being indicated is also there in Gita so lest we might get confused, it is better to bring the clarity ASAP.

Now about the part fatalistic. The fact that we have choice / we have confusion indicate that we contribute towards our destiny. How we do - which direction we do - it is how best we equip ourselves with right knowledge and use that. This is the rule of karma.

The submission / humility is one of the pillars of the quest. I believe the ground is being prepared for the results and we should go on doing so devotedly and dilligently.

The limit I said is the absolute limit (or final limit) for any human. Ofcourse there will be lower level limits which also manifests in the multiple births, higher lokas, etc. Not all, with whatever effort it may be, get moksha in a single life. So the limits are there. Why ? That is another theory.

Once the mind crosses a threshold limit, there are "accidental" realisations and with practice of deliberating these "accidents" (sadhanas) the higher stages / levels are reached.

These stages can be achieved in a single life (rare) or multiple lives. But these are the turning points of life.

If some one is having Ista devata - the realisation comes in the form of a part of the Ista devata or full bright (so bright that one will be dazzled) form.

If one is beyond that - it comes as a Biswarupam (not the picture in Mahabharata but what Arjuna saw). It is the beholding of the whole universe and beyond (scary) in the mind and the relation of the self with this. It also comes with a flash of blinding light as one crosses the threshold of the universe and beyond.

This enables the person to understand the creation in totality and he always sees any happenings / creation in sync with nature (universe / cosmos) and connects with the different levels of life forms.

Beyond this it might be mostly through sadhanas - the Brahman and nothing.

There was a short film on this realisation levels (I saw a few years back) from Sri Sri Ravishankar's - Art of living. That might give some insight.

I can dig out that but how to put and share ?

Love and best wishes

Onkara
08 October 2010, 05:47 AM
1) Now about the part fatalistic. The fact that we have choice / we have confusion indicate that we contribute towards our destiny. How we do - which direction we do - it is how best we equip ourselves with right knowledge and use that. This is the rule of karma.

2) The submission / humility is one of the pillars of the quest. I believe the ground is being prepared for the results and we should go on doing so devotedly and dilligently.


3) If some one is having Ista devata - the realisation comes in the form of a part of the Ista devata or full bright (so bright that one will be dazzled) form.

Dear Kellol
I am in agreement. I would be interested in your expansion on my questions the above points 2 and 3, if you indeed feel there is more to add. I have a thought to add on point 1).

1) My impression is that choice only presents itself to an individual. When the individual gives way to the whole (Brahman) then there is no need to bother oneself with which choice. Rather one is no longer the actor.

2) Once Self is realised or enlightened, what results are there to be prepared for?

3) What if a person does not have an Ishta Deva? And why does an Ishta Deva make a difference? :)

kallol
08 October 2010, 06:12 AM
1) My impression is that choice only presents itself to an individual. When the individual gives way to the whole (Brahman) then there is no need to bother oneself with which choice. Rather one is no longer the actor.

The Brahman is forever akarta and remains as facilitator or giver of life / consciousness.

Body-mind complex is always the karta for any decision. The body-mind complex cannot become brahman as it is part of prakriti / maya / achit / aparaprakriti. One (brahman) is enabler other is doer (prakriti). Together is the system. Just like our body can function (doer) only if there is consciousness (enabler). But together is the living human.

So we (body mind complex) cannot escape from taking or not taking decisions (even not taking decision is a decision). It is true for all, even avataras also.


2) Once Self is realised or enlightened, what results are there to be prepared for?

Self realisation does not mean moksha. It is like a gift - which is a lamp at the goal. It helps us guide ourselves better in the dark night in the spiritual path of attaining the goal. With constant quest / analysis / sadhanas - that lamp gets brighter and bigger (figuratively) to lighten up the whole path.


3) What if a person does not have an Ishta Deva? And why does an Ishta Deva make a difference?

Ishta Devata can be in any form (both huan form or symbolic form) which is religiously close to him. But some people have moved beyond that. They prepare for the biswarupam part.

Ishta devata is good for beginners to focus and raise the intensity of bhakti. It helps one's submission and erosion of ego. This in turn helps in reducing the desires and other parameters which cloud the mind.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
08 October 2010, 07:11 AM
2)

Self realisation does not mean moksha. It is like a gift - which is a lamp at the goal. It helps us guide ourselves better in the dark night in the spiritual path of attaining the goal. With constant quest / analysis / sadhanas - that lamp gets brighter and bigger (figuratively) to lighten up the whole path.



Dear Kallol
Thank you for the answsers :)
Regarding the bold above, if Self realisation is not moksha, then in my view, moksha can only imply liberation from prakriti.

There is still a logical error here, in my nondual opinion. Because prakriti is also Brahman there is nothing left to be liberated from. Although through maya, prakriti appears to be separate, it is in reality Saguna Brahman. So moksha is jivanmoksha i.e. liberation whilst living. Likewise Self-realisation is realisation of the Self, after realisation the Self one simply lives knowing that Truth; there is no place to go which is not Brahman.

Another way of saying this is that once seated on the seat of Brahman there is no longer anything other than apparent change. This change is registered by the body-mind whilst living and called samsara between lives.

Would be interested in your further opinions :)

kallol
08 October 2010, 01:02 PM
Dear Snip,

It is because of this confusion only, I had started the other thread on Brahman.

I have been seeing this confusion in different threads so I thought we should deliberate on this to bring more clarity.

Self Realisation is one of the major milestones towards moksha. What does self realisation give ?

It helps us to segregate the "I" from the body mind complex and puts a perspective of the body mind complex with respect to the cosmos.

This helps one to treat the body mind complex as seperate entity than "I".
So one can see the body & mind objectvely from a third person point of view and utilise it better.

It might be possible that the spiritual knowledge might not have been gained through scriptural / organised study at the point of self-realisation. Even it can be in nascent stage in the mind (even with self inquiry). So the question of achieving moksha only with self realisation is ruled out.

However the self realisation / enlightenment allows the intellect - body - mind to adapt faster / absorp faster / understand better the scripture and nature.
Ofcourse with constant sadhana of the inquiry / self realisation, one will be endowed with knowledge and cleansing faster.

There are two aspects to moksha - understanding of "I" and merging of I with "I".

Now understanding can be through self realisation + scripture or Guru + scripture or self realisation + continuing the practice for more and more knowledge. This is a major step towards the moksha. This helps in realising that I and "I" are same and is permanent, attributeless, all pervading Brahman.

But merging the I with "I" is the main part which requires conditioning of mind, body and intellect. Though it is not possible to achieve the ideal state (no rebirth) i.e. the mind remains free but it is through constant sadhana, that the mind is cleansed and tuned.

Overcoming the ego / ahankara is the part most of the scripture is directed towards. This is the ignorance and the moha part.

Again as we see the two aspects of the achievement of moksha also brings in two nature of God - the higher nature (Brahman) and the lower nature (prakriti / maya).

With right knowledge one can understand that I is "I" and the need to merge I into "I" but it is not possible to overcome the maya completely.

However the advantage is that the knowledge gained out of this experience and effort help in segregating the permanence from temporary and aligning with permanent. This way the mind is kept free of pains and upheals in the path of attaining nirvana / moksha.

Body mind complex can carry out the activities as duties and do the same with full knowledge of TRUTH.

Right from the God system to the human system all are having higher nature and lower nature. Whereas higher nature of God is the Brahman, the higher nature of the human is the reflected brahman. Whereas the lower nature of God is the maya, the prakriti, the aparaprakriti (the manifested and unmanifested energy), for the human it is the body (manifested & evolved energy). We will discuss this in more details in the other thread.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
09 October 2010, 02:48 AM
Dear Snip,

It is because of this confusion only, I had started the other thread on Brahman.

I have been seeing this confusion in different threads so I thought we should deliberate on this to bring more clarity.

Self Realisation is one of the major milestones towards moksha. What does self realisation give ?

It helps us to segregate the "I" from the body mind complex and puts a perspective of the body mind complex with respect to the cosmos.

This helps one to treat the body mind complex as seperate entity than "I".
So one can see the body & mind objectvely from a third person point of view and utilise it better.

It might be possible that the spiritual knowledge might not have been gained through scriptural / organised study at the point of self-realisation. Even it can be in nascent stage in the mind (even with self inquiry). So the question of achieving moksha only with self realisation is ruled out.



Dear Kallol
We differ at this point in bold :)
Anything "might be possible" if we imagine it to be so.

If we are still imagining individual people to be enlightened or not then we are creating division within the unity of Brahman/Self. By saying "I am enlightened" we have created an individual who is somehow different to "others who are not enlightened". Enlightenment is realisation that the Self is all that there is, was and will be. All is Brahman/Self. Everything within That is play of the mind until the mind becomes tranquil.

Katha Upanishad (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/katha.html)
1-II-18. The intelligent Self is not born, nor does It die. It did not come from anywhere, nor did anything come from It. It is unborn, eternal, everlasting and ancient, and is not slain even when the body is slain.
1-II-20. The Self that is subtler than the subtle and greater than the great is seated in the heart of every creature. One who is free from desire sees the glory of the Self through the tranquillity of the mind and senses and becomes absolved from grief.
1-II-21. While sitting, It goes far, while lying It goes everywhere. Who other than me can know that Deity who is joyful and joyless.
1-II-22. The intelligent one having known the Self to be bodiless in (all) bodies, to be firmly seated in things that are perishable, and to be great and all-pervading, does not grieve.
1-II-23. The Self cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, not by intelligence nor by much hearing. Only by him who seeks to know the Self can It be attained. To him the Self reveals Its own nature.
1-II-24. None who has not refrained from bad conduct, whose senses are not under restraint, whose mind is not collected or who does not preserve a tranquil mind, can attain this Self through knowledge.

kallol
09 October 2010, 04:41 AM
Dear Snip,

There are two aspects in your post.

1. Apparent location of the body mind complex in the time space and material context. A teenager getting accidental self realisation apparently looks like a gift before he has taken up the scriptures or guru. How can it be explained untill and unless we remove the time space material factors and bring a continuum through the birth and death ?

2. Second point regarding the fitment of the people of the society. Some are in class 1 level, some are in higher classes and some are in colleges and some are doctorates. Some have even not started the schooling. The spiritual maturity is through the constant sadhanas and is not a single class. That is why some are Ramakrishna / Ramana / Vivekananda and some are kallol, snip, Tom, Harry, Osama Bin laden, etc.

3. Again lots and lots of scientists who have possibly studied the similar materials. But few have the capability to use the knowledge of science. Only a few become famous and still fewer get noble prizes.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
09 October 2010, 07:26 AM
Dear Snip,

There are two aspects in your post.

1. Apparent location of the body mind complex in the time space and material context. A teenager getting accidental self realisation apparently looks like a gift before he has taken up the scriptures or guru. How can it be explained untill and unless we remove the time space material factors and bring a continuum through the birth and death ?

2. Second point regarding the fitment of the people of the society. Some are in class 1 level, some are in higher classes and some are in colleges and some are doctorates. Some have even not started the schooling. The spiritual maturity is through the constant sadhanas and is not a single class. That is why some are Ramakrishna / Ramana / Vivekananda and some are kallol, snip, Tom, Harry, Osama Bin laden, etc.

3. Again lots and lots of scientists who have possibly studied the similar materials. But few have the capability to use the knowledge of science. Only a few become famous and still fewer get noble prizes.

Love and best wishes
Dear friend Kallol
In my opinion it would not be Self-realisation if ignorance (avidya) still remains. It may appear that over time and space one has found answers, but the ultimate answer is that all answers are already the Self, regardless of time and space.

I do not deny that there appears to be different people or different classes in space and time. But Self-realisation is realisation that all is Brahman/Self, so where do classes, fame or individual people belong once that nondual Self is known? :)

kallol
09 October 2010, 10:27 PM
May be I did not put up the explaination is proper way.

1. Take the example of Hanuman. Only after he was reminded about who he was, that he began to realise his potential.

With every rebirth we are moving from one milestone to another. But the new body has none of the memory of the past lives. But what it brings is the capability to cover the space upto the last milestone extremely fast.

Say suppose I study a lots of scriptures as sadhana and become knowledgeable on self (realisation) in this life. I practice to assimilate the knowledge in my life. But I am only partially done with my assimilation. We should keep in mind the three stages of knowledge acquirement - shrabanam, mananam and nividdhasanam. Say suppose I am somewhere between mananam and nividdhasanam, when I leave this body. In my next birth how I can start from the position I achieved in this birth.

These capability and continuum is passed on by the orientation of the mind to use the intellect in a certain way so that the last point is reached fast. No, the scriptural knowledge is not passed on. But the ability to grasp that knowledge faster, is passed on.

Reminding Hanuman about who he was, is an indicator to this phenomenon.

Like Vivekananda or Ramakrishna or Ramana - their mind was oriented in such a way to use the intellect in spiritual direction.

Again this is why some can become Mozart, Bach, Tendulkar, etc. The capability was passed on but they all had to start from the learning. The difference is that they learnt much faster and could out perform others much easily.

2. Your second part : That we are moving from milestone to milestone (class to class) is agreed. However as I have mentioned, self realisation is not the end milestone / class. It is only the shrabanam part. There after we have mananam and nividdhasanam. These are the tougher part of the effort.

The merging of the I with the "I" through cleansing of mind and body is something we all are working on though many of us have the understanding (full or part) of what is self or I vs "I".

However if you say that self reasisation is after nividdhasanam then the answer is yes and no again. Yes, because the I is merged with "I" (cannot be fully) almost permanently. No because there is still a gap, however small it might be.

The constant cleansing of the mind will slow down the process of rebirth to a point which is ideally nil but that ideal position is never achieved.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
10 October 2010, 04:39 AM
M....

Love and best wishes
Dear Kallol
Thanks for the expansion on this. I see your perspective more clearly each time and it is a pleasure to read :)

Having come this far with the topic, and covered much regarding these fine points together, I ask myself if there is a fresh question arising or maybe the original question would benefit from other members input?