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Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 12:06 PM
Who'll be singing carols and reading the Nativity story on Christmas Eve this year? Many American Hindus.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2002/01/Hindus-For-Jesus.aspx

Eastern Mind
15 October 2010, 12:32 PM
Who'll be singing carols and reading the Nativity story on Christmas Eve this year? Many American Hindus.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2002/01/Hindus-For-Jesus.aspx


Vannakkam Sahasranama: It would be interesting to me to see the statistics involving the % of Hindus here in America (and Canada somewhat) who are directly involved with Vedanta Societies that do this. The word 'many' could me misleading as I think it suggests 'a significant percentage'. Here in my town the local Vedanta Society consists of about 4 families. I'm not sure about elsewhere. Certainly many Hindus don't celebrate Christmas at all. It's not done in any way at the temple I go to.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
15 October 2010, 12:50 PM
Though I can not speak for native Indians who make this decision...I can speak from one with a similar issue.

Everything here in this culture is geared towards the holiday season. My husband's only days off are the christian holidays...the mail won't even run here...and Walmart shuts down. Walmart!

It's like the end of the world.

Add to this my love of Santa, I openly admit I love the children's holy spirit of giving called Clause. Not this commercialized version with the newest Xbox tucked under his arm...but the being who loves children despite race, religion or location.

So I am a Santaphile, always have been. I am the acting Santa in my home so I know the job well.

Here we sing non christian carols like rudolph the red nosed reindeer, frosty the snow man, jingle bells... I'll be home for christmas.

Because I simply do not believe jesus ever lived...he's some sort of harry potter for the christians. Give humanity 400 years or so and they will begin digging up all these copies of harry potter in our own ruins and they will immediately assume it's some mystic text which was long ago forgotten.

It's the way of our world.


I make holiday cookies, we open presents...all while Beloved Shivaya watches us from the wall above. Vishnu, Shiva...all on the center table in my meditation room. They will not move aside for the holiday tree.

I won't lie, I wish I could trash the tree...and this whole tradition my family had adopted when my GG Grandmother was forced to convert.

It's hard. But, I think about Santa, and his love of children and it keeps me going.

This year, I would like to go to the Hindu Temple on Xmas eve with all my children. It's my goal. They seem very up to this as they also do not believe in jesus. The holiday is the holiday and "happy holly days" suffices.

I remember as a child the jehova's witnesses would be sent out into the hallway on Halloween and xmas...even valentine's day. It was very sad to me, I was a godless child by then...not christian and did not yet know Beloved Shivaya's name. I would go out into the hallway and sit with them. We would talk about anything but the party going on inside.

Years later, those girls are still my friends...they both left the JW church oddly enough.

Perhaps it started on that long ago hallway, when the children were shown compassion despite their parents choice to outcast them to the hallway. Perhaps it was these moments in the hallway which made them doubt their parents all the more?

This is the main reason I allow my children to be a tree in the holiday pageant, and they have a cupcake and koolaid during the holiday parties. I make vegetarian cranberry noels for those parties. My children will never sit in the hallway.

I have to raise them strong enough to know that the sleepers will try to convince them that they are the crazy ones for worshiping the "Blue guy".

If they are strong...no amount of carols will change the truth which has sprung into bloom within their hearts.

So they smile and accept the token stocking stuffed with crayons and candy from their classmates and it's "Happy Holly Days" for all.:Cool:

Eastern Mind
15 October 2010, 01:16 PM
Walmart shuts down. Walmart!

It's like the end of the world.

:Cool:

I actually laughed out loud. Once upon a time on a flight into La Guardia, my new friend, the guy sitting beside me on the plane, observed with similar glee, "Hey look, there's a MacDonalds. New York must be okay after all."

Maybe if enough of us Hindus wrote to WalMart complaining, they'd keep it open. I'm sure the Mexicans could use the extra bucks. Maybe ... maybe not.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

This year Boss and I depart for India on Dec. 25 itself, so Yes, I'll be celebrating that day. Hopefully the people on said flight west of here won't spontaneously break into carolling. I'll just drown them all out with my very off tune version of Namashivaya bhajans.


Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
15 October 2010, 01:30 PM
Well then...my job is done:p

You really do have to keep a sense of humor about it.

Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 02:12 PM
Vannakkam Sahasranama: It would be interesting to me to see the statistics involving the % of Hindus here in America (and Canada somewhat) who are directly involved with Vedanta Societies that do this. The word 'many' could me misleading as I think it suggests 'a significant percentage'. Here in my town the local Vedanta Society consists of about 4 families. I'm not sure about elsewhere. Certainly many Hindus don't celebrate Christmas at all. It's not done in any way at the temple I go to.

Aum Namasivaya

Probably the percentage of Hindus isn't that large, but there will still be many. This article is describing a new trend among Hindus, yogis and vedantins.

I have no problem if people want to pray to Jesus, but they should refrain from redefining existing religions according to there own standards. There are two problems here.

1) Universalists take the right to redefine Christianity. In their words, the Christian religious rituals are called Churchianity, while the Universalist practice is real Christianity. This is the objection a Christian could make.

2) Universalists also take the right to redifine yoga and vedanta. This is not described in the article, but universalist will often say that Hinduism is full of dogma and that yoga and vedanta belong to people from all religions, even claim that these are pre-Hindu, pre-Vedic or pre-Brahmanic practices which were spread all over the globe in ancient times. They will also bring Christian morals, like suffering to Hinduism. This are the objections a Hindu could make.

I thought it was interesting to read about the problems of Universalism from the perspective of Christianity and see that their problems with the universalist mentality are similar to ours.

NetiNeti
15 October 2010, 03:04 PM
Probably the percentage of Hindus isn't that large, but there will still be many. This article is describing a new trend among Hindus, yogis and vedantins.

I have no problem if people want to pray to Jesus, but they should refrain from redefining existing religions according to there own standards. There are two problems here.

1) Universalists take the right to redefine Christianity. In their words, the Christian religious rituals are called Churchianity, while the Universalist practice is real Christianity. This is the objection a Christian could make.

2) Universalists also take the right to redifine yoga and vedanta. This is not described in the article, but universalist will often say that Hinduism is full of dogma and that yoga and vedanta belong to people from all religions, even claim that these are pre-Hindu, pre-Vedic or pre-Brahmanic practices which were spread all over the globe in ancient times. They will also bring Christian morals, like suffering to Hinduism. This are the objections a Hindu could make.

I thought it was interesting to read about the problems of Universalism from the perspective of Christianity and see that there problems with the universalist mentality are similar to ours.

I do not attempt to redefine Christianity, I simply look at the good contained within the faith and make sure to give it credit and reverence.

Universalism seems to get a lot of flack here on the forum. As a student of Vedanta I simply see Universalism as an aspect of non-dualism. Since all is Brahma then all is within Brahma and all is created by Brahma. No aspect of the universe is with out his authorship. Who am I to Judge other faiths that may be as valid as mine? My master dabbled in all faiths and saw not that they were equal but that they lead to the same place. Do I believe our Dharma to be the best and most fulfilling path? Yes. Is it the only path? I believe not.

This thread also seems to issue a distaste for the Ramakrishna order. It seems like there is some equation that combines universalism with western Hindus. My master, who teaches of universalism, was fully Indian and trained by Totipuri, who was a initiate of Dashanami Sampradaya, the direct lineage of Adi Shankara.

Universalism is truly just the acknowledgment that all is equally an illusion and the only truth is Brahma.

NayaSurya
15 October 2010, 03:54 PM
Though perhaps others here would be issuing such a call, I would like to say, for at least my part this:

I know all is Shiva...there is no doubt about this. But, some beings, be they Christian, Hindu, Jew, Atheist are undoubtably sleeping.

They muck around this world making money, raising a family and maybe going to their secular church. They look to their left and watch what the man sitting next to him puts into the donation tray and adds that plus 5$.

They get a new car every single year, despite the previous one being perfectly fine...and they come to my door with a musty basket filled with Chick Flicks and try to get me to their church. A family with 8 kids is like gold to them. In one act of "kindness" they could draw in a family which would fill the church in just a few years time. They hunt large animals and gut them open upon the hood of their car displaying them proudly. Then park that car in front of my car filled with my little children.

They are sleeping. Not aware at all. Just as those children I spoke of yesterday. I know them, I live with them...I greet them every afternoon as I wait for my children to come off the handicapped bus.

There's nothing to judge here, how can you judge one who has just begun? The problem is there are certain factors within the christian church that see India and Hinduism as a very ripe place for conversion. They begin with adding Jesus to the list of dieties and then pretty soon...he's the only one left.

If you go to the christian sites online they have whole segments of tutorials on how to convert certain religions. When I was researching cultures I found a site dedicated to converting Aboriginal people of Australia with christian hymns translated into their native tongues.

So folks are nervous when you begin adding jesus to a list of Beings which hold the truth nestled in their loving Beloved Arms.

All is Shiva, but one would have to admit that some things are very much blindfolded to this fact, as we once were. Things that can harm us due to this confusion.

Let me put this in the only way I know how...in terms of my own experience.

It's fall time here right now and the bees...they are very confused. They swarm and get angry very quickly. See, they are ready to die...or hybernate depending on their type and age...and they are dangerous.

One time my children were playing train on a large aluminum ladder and an entire nest of bees swarmed them.

The bees are not lesser beings, not evil, nor stupid...or bad. But, they are confused and they can hurt you, if not given a wide berth.

I think mostly this is why folks want to give other religions a wide berth. Especially those known to cause harm.

I truly wish no ill feelings towards any guru and beliefs. Ultimately I do very much agree with you and I try very hard to be compasionate to every living being.

Lastnight I had a dream. There were snakes everywhere...all over everything. One put it's head on my foot. It was a rainbow serpent that shimmered beautifully with a aqua blue shimmer. It had hundreds of razor sharp fangs in its mouth and I went to pick it up and it moved it's head towards me. I became scared so I yanked at it and it bit me very gently.

So I angriliy grabbed its head and moved its own body into its field of striking. It bit itself. But, this bite hurt me horribly, worse than even the first bite...it hurt me so bad it caused my heart to have an episode and I woke up screaming.

For to hurt myself is one thing...but to hurt another hurts me a thousand times worse.

I believe this is a lesson of a lifetime. Even the most dangerous of creatures should be given compassion and a very wide berth.

NayaSurya
15 October 2010, 04:13 PM
I suppose it's probably very evident that I spent a portion of this lifetime sleeping.:p

Eastern Mind
15 October 2010, 06:02 PM
Universalism seems to get a lot of flack here on the forum.

Vannakkam NetiNeti: This may be true, but what are the reasons? For me personally, it is because of the confusion it causes. Not so much for adults who can see from some sort of higher advaitic level, and practice at the same time, but for the learners, the children.

Example: Family is on the way to temple.

Son: Appa, if all religions are the same, as you say, why do we have to drive 20 miles across town to be at the temple? Why can't we just go to the church across the street from home? I noticed a nice looking building closer too. I think its called a mosque. Why can't we go there? It's closer. I won't get so tired.

What would you say to him?

Which is it, heaven/hell, or reincarnation? Were animals put on the planet for us to eat like the Christians say, or is it ahimsa?

What do we say? Son, its up to you to decide?

I just think it is far less confusing to follow a path, a sampradaya. Kids are too smart and are able to figure things out so quickly. They cognize unclear thinking much faster than anyone might think. Then what happens? They go off into wanderland and begin to think religion of all sorts is just stupid.

Aum Namasivaya

NetiNeti
15 October 2010, 06:26 PM
Vannakkam NetiNeti: This may be true, but what are the reasons? For me personally, it is because of the confusion it causes. Not so much for adults who can see from some sort of higher advaitic level, and practice at the same time, but for the learners, the children.

Example: Family is on the way to temple.

Son: Appa, if all religions are the same, as you say, why do we have to drive 20 miles across town to be at the temple. Why can't we just go to the church across the street from home. I noticed a nice looking building closer too. I think its called a mosque. Why can't we go there? It's closer. I won't get so tired.

What would you say to him?

Which is it, heaven/hell, or reincarnation? Were animals put on the planet for us to eat like the Christians say, or is it ahimsa?

What do we say? Son, its up to you to decide?

I just think it is far less confusing to follow a path, a sampradaya. Kids are too smart and are able to figure things out so quickly. They cognize unclear thinking much faster than anyone might think. Then what happens? They go off into wanderland and begin to think religion of all sorts is just stupid.

Aum Namasivaya

You are right in that it is a confusing concept, but when it is finally understood it becomes a beautiful concept. Approaching the universal aspect of Vedanta is a more advanced theory but is key to the philosophy. Hinduism is, in my opinion, the greatest form of spiritual practice on the planet. But, as the Rig Veda says "Reality is one; Sages call it by different names". This illustrates that their are different paths. They may not be equal but they are valid. Vivekananda says that one is led from truth to truth, more specifically lower truth to higher truth. Our Dharma is the higher truth but not the only one. Ramakrishna says that those who practice other faiths with sincerity and love will enter the Mansion of Brahma-but it may be through the backdoor.

A child or newcomer should stick to the worship of their Ishta-Deva and study of the scriptures. Vedatin Philosophy comes later. One must be steadfast in the Dharma to begin to study advanced concepts, it is like a high school science class delving into cosmological metaphysics. How can one study a black hole when they do not know of space?

I'm not saying Hindus should worship Jesus or revere the Koran. I'm not even saying one should spend a second upon them if they do not want to. All I am saying is that one should not hate Christians or Muslims because they are filled with the same Atman as us. Some of them are very good people, good enough to please Brahma and therefore should not be judged.

Christians are made by the same God as me. They eat meat and I do not. Once again, I follow a higher truth, I am not Christian, I am Hindu. There are vegetarian Christians and they follow a higher truth than the carnivorous ones. There are flesh eating Hindus. They believe in the same things I do and therefore are not "wrong", but they are not as advanced as a vegetarian.

Some people say that by accepting universalism, one becomes less Hindu. I do not believe this to be true.

Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 06:54 PM
Yes, confusion is the problem.

*The vedas say, ekam sad, truth is one.

*The bible says, there is one god and one way to reach him.

Universalist will interpret both sayings as having the same meaning. But this neglects the fact that the Christian who wrote down his statement in the bible and all the subsequent Christians who followed those words, had a completely different idea in mind then what is meant in the vedas.

Through the study of the bible and Christianity it's easy to conclude that it doesn't teach the same concepts and principles as the vedas. We do not have the right to tell the Christians what you are teaching is not really Christianity, you are misinterpretating the bible. The same thing holds true for Christians or Universalist who try to impose Christian values on the words of the vedas and upanishads. It is possible that Christianity, with all its flaws, inspires someone to become a better person. We should not deny that. Atheism, humanism, socialism, feminism are all philosophies that can inspire someone to become a better person, to perform better karmas. That doesn't make those philosophies part of Hinduism.

What the Hindu scriptures teach is that yes, we are all worshipping the same truth, but the other religions are doing it by the wrong method. They will not reach the ultimate, but they will reach whatever they are worshipping. This means that they might reach the world of ghosts or be born again as a Christian, because Christianity was on their mind. Whatever is on your mind at the moment of your last breath will determine your next birth. These are the teachings off the Bhagavad Gita. Some might say, they will be born again as Hindus. No, not if they do not have the merits to be born as Hindu nor if they remembered Jesus before they died. Eventually, they will be born as Hindus, but don't be suprised if a devout and pious Christian has to go through 640.000 lifeforms, before being born as a human being again. Hindu swamis who chant church songs in temples are also at risk to for being born again as a Christian. Because of their prarabhda karma, they may become Hindu again very soon, svalpamapyasya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayaat, but you can see that accepting Christ is only a hinderance in the path of a Hindu.

Someone might say, what is the harm in letting Christian doctrines and Christian saints and mesiah enter Hinduism? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. There is one reason when worshipping Jesus as an avatara wouldn't cause any confliction, that is if you believe the Hindu gods are fictional characters. If that's what you believe, then adding more fictional characters to the pantheon is no big deal. Some people may interpret the gods in that way, but this is not what the Hindu scriptures teach. This is also not the vedanta of Shankara, Ramanuja or other acharyas. Universalist will say that Hinduism is a syncretic religion that has added god upon god, concept upon concept from culture upon culture to result in what is now known as Hinduism. This view is unacceptable for anyone who takes Hindu Dharma seriously. Hinduism has been revealed integrally by our rishis, not fragmentally. Confusion arises, because darshana shastras or philosophy zooms in and specialises in on one of the aspects of Hinduism, but what is forgotten is that this ascept that is studied in the darshanas was already an integral part of Hinduism. This is evident from our scriptures like the Vedas, puranas and the itihasas. Yes, if you already believe that the Hindu Gods are man made lullabies to put us to sleep at night, then you can add Jesus to the pantheon. Otherwise, there's an incongruency.



I'm not saying Hindus should worship Jesus or revere the Koran. I'm not even saying one should spend a second upon them if they do not want to. All I am saying is that one should not hate Christians or Muslims because they are filled with the same Atman as us. Some of them are very good people, good enough to please Brahma and therefore should not be judged.

Yes, absolutely. We should not hate on Christians, they are atmans indeed. The point though is that we also do not have to mingle Christianity with Hinduism to please the Christians. We do not hate them nor do we please them. They have the freedom to believe in their religion and we have no right to deny that, but we have to protect our veda dharma very carefully against Christian influences.

NetiNeti
15 October 2010, 07:04 PM
Yes, confusion is the problem.

*The vedas say, ekam sad, truth is one.

*The bible says, there is one god and one way to reach him.

Universalist will interpret both sayings as having the same meaning. But this neglects the fact that the Christian who wrote down his statement in the bible and all the subsequent Christians who followed those words, had a completely different idea in mind then what the rishis had realised through the vedic mantras.

Through the study of the bible and Christianity it's easy to conclude that it doesn't teach the same concepts and principles as the vedas. We do not have the right to tell the Christians what you are teaching is not really Christianity, you are misinterpretating the bible. The same thing holds true for Christians or Universalist who try to impose Christian values on the words of the vedas and upanishads.

What the Hindu scriptures teach is that yes, we are all worshipping the same truth, but the other religions are doing it by the wrong method. They will not reach the ultimate, but they will reach whatever they are worshipping. This means that they might reach the world of ghosts or be born again as a Christian, because Christianity was on their mind. Whatever is on your mind at the moment of your last breath will determine your next birth. These are the teachings off the Bhagavad Gita. Some might say, they will be born again as Hindus. No, not if they do not have the merits to be born as Hindu nor if they remembered Jesus before they died.

It is possible that Christianity, with all its flaws, inspires someone to become a better person. We should not deny that. Atheism, humanism, socialism, feminism are all philosophies that can inspire someone to become a better person, to perform better karmas. That doesn't make those philosophies part of Hinduism.

Someone might say, what is the harm in letting Christian doctrines and Christian saints and mesiah enter Hinduism? There is one reason when this wouldn't cause any confliction, that is if you believe the Hindu gods are all fictional characters, adding more fictional characters to the pantheon is no big deal. This is not the vedanta of Hinduism or the vedanta of Shankara or Ramanuja and other acharyas. Universalist will say that Hinduism is a syncretic religion that has added god upon god, concept upon concept from culture upon culture to result in what is now known as Hinduism. This view is unacceptable for anyone who takes Hindu Dharma seriously. Yes, if you already believe that the Hindu Gods are man made lullabies to put us to sleep at night, then you can add Jesus to the pantheon. Otherwise, there's a incongruency.



Namaste Sahasranama,

This is a very good explanation. This is what I mean by lower truths and higher truths. Christianity has some truth in it, such as charity and kindness. I hope that when they pass away they keep truthful ideals such as this on their mind instead of the idea of Christianity as a whole.

I do not try and delude Christianity with my own Hindu ideals and try to persuade others not to. Christians believe in heaven and hell and if they say otherwise, they are not Christians, just like a Hindu not believing in reincarnation. Christians do believe in loving their neighbor, so it it is ok for me to say that is a shared belief with Hindus. My hope is that a Christian can, through the truths in their faith, rise above the hatred Christianity can spew and love the formless God. It would be a lot of work, and belonging to the Dharma is easier, but I am sure it has happened before. Ramakrishna says it is good to be born in a church but bad to die in one.This means that one should, through the truths in his faith, love the formless God and transcend all earthly labels and religions. This applies to all faiths, including Hinduism.

Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 07:49 PM
My hope is that a Christian can, through the truths in their faith, rise above the hatred Christianity can spew and love the formless God.
That is what you might want from the Christians, but that is not really what Christianity teaches. This is what is meant with imposing your own belief on someone else's. If you are truly tolerant, you should be tolerant of the fact that Christians do not worship God in the same light as we do as Hindus.


.This means that one should, through the truths in his faith, love the formless God and transcend all earthly labels and religions. This applies to all faiths, including Hinduism.

Even Shankaracharya followed the injuction of the vedas and therefore worshipped the vedic and pauranik gods which he regarded as manifestations of brahman and not some fictional character from other religions. We are talking about different things here. One nirguna brahma, second saguna brahma (according Shankara these are Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, Devi, Surya and Kartikeya) and thirdly, there are fictional characters known as Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Harry Potter.

NetiNeti
15 October 2010, 07:59 PM
That is what you might want from the Christians, but that is not really what Christianity teaches. This is what is meant with imposing your own belief on someone else's.


I see your point but I feel the issue here is more linguistic. I do not "impose" this upon Christians because I do not say this is their goal or tell them it should be. I was only stating my wish which is personal and shared on a Hindu Dharma forum. I never stated that Christians believe in an impersonal, all pervading God. I only tried to show an example in which they could elevate to a higher truth.

Imposing my beliefs on Christianity would be something like twisting the words of Jesus to make it sound like he promoted Vegetarianism or Ahimsa.

Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 08:07 PM
Imposing my beliefs on Christianity would be something like twisting the words of Jesus to make it sound like he promoted Vegetarianism or Ahimsa.That's true, you have not done that, it's merely wishful thinking. Next time though when you read a book on Hinduism written in the last 150 years, by any swami whose name ends in ...ananda, try to spot the words where Christian values are imposed on Hindu Dharma and vice versa.

NetiNeti
15 October 2010, 08:11 PM
That's true, you have not done that, but next time you read an book on Hinduism written in the last 150 years, by any swami whose name ends in ...ananda, try to spot the words where Christian values are imposed on Hindu Dharma and vice versa.

Please elaborate upon this statement.

Also, I do not advocate Hindus worshiping what you call "fictional characters". I believe Hinduism to be the highest truth and there is no reason to stray from it.

Sahasranama
15 October 2010, 08:17 PM
I would have to go through the books which would take a lot of time. It's just a suggestion, something you can look out for the next time you read a book.



Also, I do not advocate Hindus worshiping what you call "fictional characters". I believe Hinduism to be the highest truth and there is no reason to stray from it.I wasn't talking about you personally, but about any Hindu who will worship Jesus alongside the Hindu gods.

There are a few reasons to do that:

*Believe both are equally false, but the worship gives you some emotional value
*Believe that both are equally right, that Jesus is as much of an incarnation as Krishna. This is pure fantasy which will lead to all sorts of contradictions.
*Worship one as the truth, regard the other as false, but still worship the other for manipulative reason, like trying to sell your philosophy or for trying to convert, trying to keep peace or for emotional support

sanjaya
15 October 2010, 11:19 PM
I'll have to read this article in depth later, but I remember seeing the "Christ the Yogi" image several years ago during the Christmas season. For what it's worth, Christ the Yogi annoys the evangelicals about as much as it annoys those of us who take our Hinduism seriously. :)

NetiNeti
16 October 2010, 12:05 AM
I'll have to read this article in depth later, but I remember seeing the "Christ the Yogi" image several years ago during the Christmas season. For what it's worth, Christ the Yogi annoys the evangelicals about as much as it annoys those of us who take our Hinduism seriously. :)

Yeah. He didn't do yoga and he didn't travel to India (or if he did he did not pick up the Dharma).

sm78
16 October 2010, 01:52 AM
I do not attempt to redefine Christianity, I simply look at the good contained within the faith and make sure to give it credit and reverence.

To what end and purpose?


As a student of Vedanta I simply see Universalism as an aspect of non-dualism. Since all is Brahma then all is within Brahma and all is created by Brahma. No aspect of the universe is with out his authorship.

Non-dualism may be viewed as speculations into the ultimate nature of reality by agnostics or direct expereinces into the "absolute" nature consciousness by believers. In one case, it is just a theory and in the later, an experience to be sought in samadhi. But in neither case it is a radical generalization about the society or the problems of this world.

Universalism on the other hand is precisely a radical generalization of reality, more precisely its religions. It may be a desparate attempt to superimpose the theory non-duality into the harsh realities of the world, for the gap may seem to big to have a peaceful conscience.

These are usual problems with partial dogmas and radical ideologies. They fail to explain the many faced, irreducibly complex and beautiful world we live in, and in retaliation we make every endevour to reshape the world according to our dogmas. How egoistic of the puny human to dictate nature according to his whimses! It is exactly this, whether it is Islamic Jehad to establish the barbaric sharia accross the world, or universalist zeal to see equals or goods in every religion.

A true non-dualists will accept the evil when he sees good in the world, as one cannot exist without the other, and make efforts to go past either of these qualities into the direct non-dual experience in samadhi.

Acknowledging the good but ignoring to recognize the existence of evil is simply dumb. Evil will not go away, if you** like good too much, nature precisely throw evil in your face, to wake you up from this delusion of duality! But if in a tamasic state you just continue to hypnotise yourself with universalist dogma, deny the existence of evil and just want to see the good in everything because you feel vulnerable and unsure of your beliefs and dogmas and yourself in the face of harsh reality - then well you have precisely missed the boat of the famed non-duality and its direct experience.
**you refers to a generic universalist


Who am I to Judge other faiths that may be as valid as mine? My master dabbled in all faiths and saw not that they were equal but that they lead to the same place. Do I believe our Dharma to be the best and most fulfilling path? Yes. Is it the only path? I believe not.

And this type of meaningless blabber gets me worked up.

Are people here judging religions out of a vocation? Do you think its because we derive great pleasure and enlightenment out of judging other religions? Or could it is because we see a threat, not to our own bodies (which I know will be the only occation when an universalist might get up from his/her ass), but to our society, culture and right now to entire humanity? I think none who find it necessary to be critical of Islamofascism or the catholic horror shows, do it from an internal need to judge others. Followers of any true spirituality (not external decorum) possibly cannot share this trait of the desert god and his followers.


This thread also seems to issue a distaste for the Ramakrishna order. It seems like there is some equation that combines universalism with western Hindus. My master, who teaches of universalism, was fully Indian and trained by Totipuri, who was a initiate of Dashanami Sampradaya, the direct lineage of Adi Shankara.

No no, universalism has had both Indian and western promoters. Its far from completely western, though western idealism may have an impact. Some of us are not afraid to point out wrong doings of certain historical personalities who now become demi-gods or even gods to the masses. This forum has witnessed the amount of hate it sometimes draws from the non hating universalists.


Universalism is truly just the acknowledgment that all is equally an illusion and the only truth is Brahma.

No its just a radical generalization, a desparate superimposition of a theory which is not yet in the experience of these souls (and will never be, sorry), on to this beautiful world.

An attempt to reshape the world (aliebit more doctrinally) much like the Jehadi barbarians.

TatTvamAsi
17 October 2010, 12:25 PM
Must.... resist... posting... in....this... thread..

Note to self: Take deep breaths and count to 30...

AUM....

TatTvamAsi
17 October 2010, 12:27 PM
A true non-dualists will accept the evil when he sees good in the world, as one cannot exist without the other, and make efforts to go past either of these qualities into the direct non-dual experience in samadhi.

Simply brilliant!

Eastern Mind
17 October 2010, 02:10 PM
Must.... resist... posting... in....this... thread..

Note to self: Take deep breaths and count to 30...

AUM....

Vannakkam TTA: Shucks! What this place needs is a private thread titled 'TTA's rants' where only people who appreciate the humour in excessive ranting have special passwords to go view. I like the grains of truth AND the melodrama.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
17 October 2010, 02:41 PM
Yes, I vote for a rant from TTA.

Why did you think I opened this thread. :p

yajvan
17 October 2010, 04:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

IF TTA wishes to express his views and knows that they may be a bit 'challanging' or agressive, then perhaps the jalpa folder may just suit his needs.

It can be found here:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6420 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6420)

praṇām

TatTvamAsi
20 October 2010, 10:03 PM
Vannakkam TTA: Shucks! What this place needs is a private thread titled 'TTA's rants' where only people who appreciate the humour in excessive ranting have special passwords to go view. I like the grains of truth AND the melodrama.

Aum Namasivaya

EM,

LOL, thanks for that. I had a chuckle.

Regarding the article, I had to read it twice to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

It obviously points to the Vedanta and SRF societies that revere jesus; most of the members of those societies are westerners! No surprise there.

And, if they get their jollies praying to jesus, who cares. I just find it really awkward that traditional Hindus, from India, put jesus on the same pedestal as the other deities. I believe this is a result of christian-centric education and this Radical Universalism. I wonder if they would do the same for muhammad(?). :D

Namaskar.

Adhvagat
21 October 2010, 04:17 AM
This is the main reason I allow my children to be a tree in the holiday pageant, and they have a cupcake and koolaid during the holiday parties. I make vegetarian cranberry noels for those parties. My children will never sit in the hallway.

I have to raise them strong enough to know that the sleepers will try to convince them that they are the crazy ones for worshiping the "Blue guy".

If they are strong...no amount of carols will change the truth which has sprung into bloom within their hearts.

So they smile and accept the token stocking stuffed with crayons and candy from their classmates and it's "Happy Holly Days" for all.:Cool:

Hello Naya Surya...

It's a very delicate situation we live here in the west.

We chose the path of dharma but we live in a strongly adharmic society. This dualism still really affects me, but I think it's an importat test for ourselves.

Satyameva Jayate.

Believer
29 November 2010, 09:35 AM
I just find it really awkward that traditional Hindus, from India, put jesus on the same pedestal as the other deities. I believe this is a result of christian-centric education and this Radical Universalism. I wonder if they would do the same for muhammad(?).
Shush!
Don't give them Universalists any more ideas. They just might do it! :)
Their favorite mantra is, All paths lead to...........blah blah blah.

Maya3
29 November 2010, 06:19 PM
Add to this my love of Santa, I openly admit I love the children's holy spirit of giving called Clause. Not this commercialized version with the newest Xbox tucked under his arm...but the being who loves children despite race, religion or location.

So I am a Santaphile, always have been. I am the acting Santa in my home so I know the job well.

Here we sing non christian carols like rudolph the red nosed reindeer, frosty the snow man, jingle bells... I'll be home for christmas.

Because I simply do not believe jesus ever lived...he's some sort of harry potter for the christians. Give humanity 400 years or so and they will begin digging up all these copies of harry potter in our own ruins and they will immediately assume it's some mystic text which was long ago forgotten.

It's the way of our world.


I make holiday cookies, we open presents...all while Beloved Shivaya watches us from the wall above. Vishnu, Shiva...all on the center table in my meditation room. They will not move aside for the holiday tree.

I won't lie, I wish I could trash the tree...and this whole tradition my family had adopted when my GG Grandmother was forced to convert.

It's hard. But, I think about Santa, and his love of children and it keeps me going.

This year, I would like to go to the Hindu Temple on Xmas eve with all my children. It's my goal. They seem very up to this as they also do not believe in jesus. The holiday is the holiday and "happy holly days" suffices.

I remember as a child the jehova's witnesses would be sent out into the hallway on Halloween and xmas...even valentine's day. It was very sad to me, I was a godless child by then...not christian and did not yet know Beloved Shivaya's name. I would go out into the hallway and sit with them. We would talk about anything but the party going on inside.

Years later, those girls are still my friends...they both left the JW church oddly enough.

Perhaps it started on that long ago hallway, when the children were shown compassion despite their parents choice to outcast them to the hallway. Perhaps it was these moments in the hallway which made them doubt their parents all the more?

This is the main reason I allow my children to be a tree in the holiday pageant, and they have a cupcake and koolaid during the holiday parties. I make vegetarian cranberry noels for those parties. My children will never sit in the hallway.

I have to raise them strong enough to know that the sleepers will try to convince them that they are the crazy ones for worshiping the "Blue guy".

If they are strong...no amount of carols will change the truth which has sprung into bloom within their hearts.

So they smile and accept the token stocking stuffed with crayons and candy from their classmates and it's "Happy Holly Days" for all.:Cool:

I really like what you wrote.

Personally I love Christmas. I have always celebrated it secularly as do most Swedes. The word Christ or Jesus is not even in the Swedish word for Christmas, so the religious part of it have never been part of it for me.
But Santa Clause, the Gnomes, Christmas decorations and Christmas Tree, getting together with family and exchanging gifts I love. And of course all the chocolate!
I also like the Christmas songs, religious or not.


My Ashram welcomes people of all faiths, our gurus aim was East West Unity and we have community events for several holidays that are not Hindu even though our religious tradition and our rituals are Hindu.

So Iīm all for universalism and respecting all faiths, and I understand that all faiths lead to the same place.
Especially if you look behind all the cultural stuff behind religions, youīll find that there are a lot of similar things.

When it comes to the religious part about embracing Christ in daily Hindu rituals I feel a little different. Itīs not really for me.
Not really sure why we would want to worship him in our temples.
Acknowledging Christianity as a valid path yes, but not embrace Christian principles.

There are several things within Christianity that I really donīt agree with, several things that are contradictory and exclusionary and they go against Hindu teachings of acceptance and understanding.

So Iīm not sure how to be tolerant to something that I donīt agree with?

Maya