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ScottMalaysia
16 October 2010, 01:47 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90235492

Scientists are in the process of attempting to grow animal tissue and protein in laboratories. If they are successful, this would mean that it would be possible to produce "meat" (animal flesh) without killing animals. The lab-grown meat would not have a central nervous system and would feel no pain.

PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) are offering a $1 million reward to the first company who can bring lab-grown chicken meat to consumers by 2012.

As Hindu vegetarians, would you eat this "in vitro meat", since no animals have to be killed to produce it? Would you eat lab-grown beef? I am unsure of where I stand on this issue and would like to see what others feel about it.

Eastern Mind
16 October 2010, 05:13 AM
Vannakkam Scott:

I wouldn't because I don't like the taste of meat. I vomited the last tofu hot dog I ate 25 years ago. But like you, I would have to meditate on the ethics of it all, and read more about the exact methods of production. I'm pretty much a whole grain, organic when possible type. Any fake meat seems just odd to me, but I do understand its place in the transition from carnivore to herbivore diet. The whole idea sounds kind of gross to me.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
16 October 2010, 08:22 AM
Personally, I would not eat it, I am a grossed out by the idea of eating meat.

This development may be a good thing for many other people though. Realistically, the entire population is never going to be vegetarian. There is nothing wrong with that, even the manu smriti says, na mansa bhakshane dosha, eating meat is not a sin. There are different needs for different people. Maybe this development will be helpful to reduce the size of the bio industry.

NetiNeti
16 October 2010, 10:53 AM
I have made a vow to Brahma to never eat meat. Where the meat comes from is not important and would not change my vow. Who wants to eat a carcass anyways, lab grown or not?

I'm one of the vegetarian hardliners on this forum and still think time would be better spent growing better veggies that can be used for dinner as well as prasad.

satay
16 October 2010, 03:48 PM
namaste Scott,


As Hindu vegetarians, would you eat this "in vitro meat", since no animals have to be killed to produce it? Would you eat lab-grown beef?

For me, no I would not eat the lab grown meat. Though I eat 'veggie' burgers and veggie hot dogs in the summer made of tofu etc.

Adhvagat
16 October 2010, 05:49 PM
The first thing I thought was that it wouldn't be a sattvic food.

I'm quite sure it wouldn't be a food worth offering as prasad.

Meat is quite heavy for anyone who stopped eating meat a long time ago as well. Even tiny pieces of meat that I ate accidentaly over these years made me feel sick. So I'm sure it's a food that doesn't benefit our body, not to mention our minds.

Another issue would be: Would animals be harmed in order for this lab-grown meat to be developed? If yes... Another point for me not to support it.

Eastern Mind
16 October 2010, 06:54 PM
Vannakkam:

Besides the obvious reasons, (ahimsa, taste) I really wonder how many strange chemicals (hormones, etc., would have to be added to make this stuff artificially. Muscle growth in any animal is a fairly complicated organic (as in organic chemistry, not in organic food) process. if I had to eat meat, I'd at least want something natural. But perhaps there could be some kind of strange good side regarding pollution of the environment and the use of natural resources. Somehow I doubt it though.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
17 October 2010, 01:35 AM
Interesting question.

Ethically/religiously speaking I'd have no problem with it. But personally I wouldn't, since I find the idea of eating animal flesh to be distasteful. But as I said, strictly speaking I can't see that this violates ahimsa.

Arjuni
17 October 2010, 07:28 PM
I agree with the other commenters that lab-grown flesh would neither be sattvic nor offering-worthy, and probably artificial enough to resemble a meat Twinkie in its construction! Yuck...

I don't think its goal of providing a more humane meat substitute would necessarily work. It's been my experience with non-veg folks that even the people who will happily gobble up Taco Bell five days a week, suddenly become discriminating gourmands when told they're about to consume a soy or gluten meat substitute: the dish must be perfect in flavour, texture, and sensory delight before judged even a grudging success. I've also heard complaints from friends about how costly meat substitutes and pre-prepared vegetarian dishes can be, how difficult it is to deal with tofu, etc. There's a mental resistance to "fake meat" with some people that can be difficult to overcome; people may ignore familiar foods and eat without attention, but when introduced to something new will usually evaluate it carefully.

That means this product would have to be virtually identical to animal flesh in all particulars, and also a) cheaper or similar in price, and b) as easy, or easier, to prepare. Given all of the lab work involved in its production, I can't imagine how such a product could be sold inexpensively. (And the folks who care enough about animal welfare and non-violence to buy it regardless of cost, are often vegetarian anyway.)

For some people, too, long-held habits are easier to change permanently if the appetite for them isn't continually whetted by substitutes (like low-cal or baked chips or cakes, non-alcoholic beer/wine, herbal cigarettes, etc.). Staying vegetarian is easier because I have a disinterest in eating meat; I imagine that would be more difficult if I started eating 'lab-grown' stuff, made plans to cook a certain dish one night, went to the grocery to find they were out of the fake, thought, 'oh, just this once...'

Whether the substance would violate ahimsa, I'm not entirely sure - I don't think it would, in and of itself, but I do think it keeps alive an appetite for the products of violence. A diet heavy in animal flesh is part of wretched things ranging from world hunger to animal suffering to colon cancer, and yet continues to have such a hold over the psyche and national image in the West. That speaks to me of an odd sort of addiction, one that's best not fed with lukewarm substitutes but shoved out the door completely...and surely the scientific resources and funds tied up in the development of this stuff could be better used elsewhere?

Just one ignorant's opinion...

Ashvati
21 October 2010, 11:52 AM
I find myself wondering about the economic effects of viable artificial meat. While many on here hate the meat industry (with valid reason), one still has to consider the implications of its demise and the sheer number of jobs that could be lost if the meat industry were so massively changed by the creation of artificial meat.

sunyata07
21 October 2010, 04:51 PM
Whether the substance would violate ahimsa, I'm not entirely sure - I don't think it would, in and of itself, but I do think it keeps alive an appetite for the products of violence.


I find myself agreeing with this. Plus, it just seems unnatural. I'm all for science discovering more efficient medicines and food products to increase people's health and improve overall quality of life, but this sort of tampering seems to have no real purpose. If one is really so concerned about the sacredness of life and wishes to do no more harm to animals, why not just give up meat or turn to tofu-based substitutes instead, rather than turn to "lab" meat. Sounds like a cop-out to me. Not that it might not be a revolutionary idea - people want convenience over wholesomeness, are lazier than ever in this day and age, and are attached to the idea of pleasure without the consequences, health-related or karmic. But lab-grown meat? Even just the idea sounds repulsive.

Om namah Shivaya

yajvan
21 October 2010, 09:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90235492

As Hindu vegetarians, would you eat this "in vitro meat" ?

Only if it tasted like broccoli... :)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ON3V_iGCKwg/RqjPNvdUSVI/AAAAAAAAATI/UKrDIBc1OMk/s1600/fruits_and_vegetables2.jpg



praṇām

brahman
27 October 2010, 07:07 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90235492

Scientists are in the process of attempting to grow animal tissue and protein in laboratories. If they are successful, this would mean that it would be possible to produce "meat" (animal flesh) without killing animals. The lab-grown meat would not have a central nervous system and would feel no pain.

PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) are offering a $1 million reward to the first company who can bring lab-grown chicken meat to consumers by 2012.

As Hindu vegetarians, would you eat this "in vitro meat", since no animals have to be killed to produce it? Would you eat lab-grown beef? I am unsure of where I stand on this issue and would like to see what others feel about it.





Dear Scott and all other sincere seekers,

The attempts from PETA have to be appreciated; they are trying to satisfy both meat-eaters and the ahimnsa-vadis at the same time.:)

Is Ahimsa the sole reason Sanadhana dharma tradition opts for satvic food?

I am politely asking you to take a look at another factor, which in my opinion, might be the reason for the ban on tamasic food.

We broadly classify one’s need to take food into three categories:

1.to fill stomach and ‘satisfy the need to eat’
2.for physical health
3.for mental health

The shurti too agrees to that.
The Eaten food becomes threefold 1.solid 2. Between solid and subtle 3.Subtle)
1. Becomes faeces, 2. Becomes flesh and 3. Becomes mind)( Sacred Chadogya 6:5:1) Manana please

As we eat, all the three needs of hunger, physical and mental health are satisfied.
Or, it becomes evident that we ensure the type of food to eat depending on the need to be satisfied.

Now, the rest is open to your thoughts. When it comes to mental fitness (which is necessary for a follower of Sandhana Dharma tradition),
is there any difference in lab-grown and slaughtered meat?




More Manana: Sacred Chandogya 6 :5 to 6: 7
:) Love

Maya3
31 October 2010, 06:12 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about it.
I have never liked meat, so I would have no urge to eat it even if no animal was killed to get it.
On the other hand my husband loves meat and I would be happier about it if he ate meat that didn't harm anyone.

But it does seem kind of sick and gross, and cloning (it is a form of cloning right?) seem like we are really on the road to mess things up and making a very weird world.

I think instead, encouraging people to eat a lot less meat, be vegetarian or eat meat rarely, then when you do buy meat from animals that have been either hunted or raised very ethically. (I really don't think that you can get everyone to become vegetarian, I'd love it, but I don't think it will happen)

again, not sure how I feel?

Maya

Ramakrishna
07 November 2010, 07:14 PM
Namaste all,

I agree with others that this whole thing is completely unnatural and artificial and just seems kind of gross. I am a person who is trying to eat completely natural foods. However, I would support this idea if it means a large number of people give up eating real meat, but I personally would never consume this fake meat. It's as if I wish I were eating real meat or something.

Jai Sri Krishna

ScottMalaysia
08 November 2010, 03:34 AM
Thanks for all the replies.

From what you say, it doesn't appear sattvik. I don't think I would eat it, and I'd just stick with the regular fake meat that I eat even if it was available. My wife, on the other hand, sees nothing wrong with it because she's not religious and knows little, if anything about sattvik food.

Sahasranama
08 November 2010, 04:17 AM
I would be concerned, would there be a jiva living in the lab grown meat. Even if it's lab grown, the meat would still need to be alive to actually grow.

Maya3
08 November 2010, 06:53 AM
I would be concerned, would there be a jiva living in the lab grown meat. Even if it's lab grown, the meat would still need to be alive to actually grow.

Good question.

It would have energy in it as everything else does...right? So then yes?
Or maybe not?

Maya

Adhvagat
08 November 2010, 09:10 AM
I would be concerned, would there be a jiva living in the lab grown meat. Even if it's lab grown, the meat would still need to be alive to actually grow.

I think we need to go deeper in this...

I was never sure of when the jiva would begin to rule a body.

Technically could we say that each cell is controlled by an individual jiva? And we simply are the ruling jiva of a myriad of other jivas?

Sahasranama
08 November 2010, 09:37 AM
I would think there's only one jiva per living being which comes through the impregnation. But it's also possible to procreate without sex, like a tree can grow when you cut a branch and plant it. Bacteria multiply by dividing themselves. In the case of lab meat, I think it would be like the real meat is creating offspring through his cells that will have to live in a concorted body. Wouldn't it be better if the animal would just procreate naturally, so that the jiva can live in a full body?

Eastern Mind
08 November 2010, 10:17 AM
Vannakkam:

From a mystical viewpoint, in humans, mature souls hover around looking for a new body, and watching for conception to take place. So they can sense when this might happen by the vibrations of the mother especially, fully aware of ovulation and the subtle pheromones in the air. Mature souls are attracted to higher vibrations. So a family who is spiritual and purposely attempting to conceive will act like a magnet. The soul will enter within a few hours of the physical joining of the two cells, called conception, once they notice the door is open, so to speak. Intuitive mothers sense this event, and will 'know' they're pregnant long before any medical test occurs. Often a flash of light or some other inner sight will be the indicator.

Immature or older temporarily confused souls, on the other hand, like ones clouded by alcohol, damaged by violence or war, won't see things so clearly. The window is cloudy, so to speak. Then they may mistakenly enter the body of an animal, less spiritually minded people of lower vibration, or perhaps, in this case, this life form. But I would be surprised, because its new on the planet, and hence would be unfamiliar even to immature jivas.

This is just my opinion.

Aum Namasivaya

Adhvagat
08 November 2010, 02:38 PM
But would this muscle colony have a ruling jiva?

Sounds weird to me...

In the future, when our computers are biological, should we cremate them when they break?

:D

PS: I didn't see Eastern's take on this... I'll comment better later, my mind is a bit agitated right now.

Maya3
08 November 2010, 06:23 PM
Sunyata07,
Thank you for your message, tried to respond to it, but it said you need to clear space in your folder or something like that to be able to receive more.
Thanks for writing.

Maya

Eastern Mind
08 November 2010, 06:44 PM
Sunyata07,
Thank you for your message, tried to respond to it, but it said you need to clear space in your folder or something like that to be able to receive more.
Thanks for writing.

Maya

The PM box only holds 50 messages, and you need to dump it occasionally. I guess if you really think something is important you should store it somewhere else on your computer in a text document. I see mine like filling the car with gas, except in revers. Once it gets to about 30 messages stored, I just go and dump the whole thing. Not being a pack rat of info or stuff, I find this task easy, almost enjoyable. Only a couple of times were there messages that someone referred to later and I totally forgot. Hope this is helpful in some small way, Maya.

Aum Namasivaya

Maya3
08 November 2010, 08:05 PM
Thank you Eastern Mind,
I'll keep that in mind for when mine fills up as well.

Everyone, I apologize for getting off topic, just wanted to post this on a thread she has posted on.

Maya

Believer
15 November 2010, 12:37 PM
As Hindu vegetarians, would you eat this "in vitro meat", since no animals have to be killed to produce it? Would you eat lab-grown beef? I am unsure of where I stand on this issue and would like to see what others feel about it.Why is this residual fascination with the non-Hindu ways?
What difference does it make whether the meat is produced in a lab, or in a stool to meat converter or by killing animals?
If someone had sex with a blow-up doll, would that be acceptable, since it was not with a person, even though it was extra-marital sex?
Why do people want to stretch the umbrella of Hinduism to include everything under the Sun and feel comfortable doing things that are not 'normally' done in Hinduism? There is no virtue in labeling yourself a Hindu, if you want to have 'flexible morals' and indulge in all kinds of deviant lifestyles. Why not keep your original religion and be happy eating manufactured meat and having fun with blow-up dolls, rather than tarnish Hinduism with these activities? If a person is obsessed with the remnants of Christianity, he is obviously cheating himself by calling himself a Hindu while wanting to do non-sanctioned things.
Do we need to pollute our minds with this kind of garbage and keep bringing it to this forum for discussion?
Is any common sense used to think whether topics are appropriate before rushing to post them in the Hindu forum?

yajvan
16 November 2010, 07:52 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Is any common sense used to think whether topics are appropriate before rushing to post them in the Hindu forum?
...thank you.



praṇām

ScottMalaysia
16 November 2010, 09:30 PM
The reason I asked is that PETA is offering a reward to the first company that can produce in vitro meat. PETA are more extreme in their vegetarianism than Hindus are, encouraging a totally vegan diet without milk, which is necessary for the human body according to Ayurveda. I was asking that if these extremists would eat lab-grown meat, would Hindus? I didn't think about the issues of it being tamasic at the time.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with it. I'll stick with the vegetable-based fake meat.

SethDrebitko
11 January 2011, 09:38 PM
I'd have to say personally no. Even though I would have no ethical/religious problem with it I also eat vegetarian for health reasons.

SanathanaDharma
26 January 2011, 07:22 AM
Dear Friend

Other than the pretty obvious facts that, by being a vegetarian, you are

- avoiding murdering of innocent animals....
- avoiding consumption of something that was alive, but is dead now, because you killed it...
- avoiding the cruel act of killing an animal in a brutal way, peeling of its skin from its flesh, demonically cutting the flesh, frying or cooking it
only for the sake of giving pleasure, which is going to last a few seconds,in the taste buds of the tongue
- avoiding becoming a slave to the senses[tongue]
- sticking to the actual food which is more healthy, tastier and not not involve harming a living being,

there is a very beautiful technical reason which actually defines why eating meat[real or lab grown] is not preferred

Lets take a very simple example....

You have worked hard for a long time, saved a lot of money which was earned in a right way, and hence, with that money you
buy yourself a brand new "car"....the instruction manual of the car says

A:
Fuel Input: This car has a petrol based engine and hence you need to fill the car with "pure unleaded petroleum"
Result on Engine: The engine and thus the car not only runs for a longer time, but more importantly the efficiency increases, working conditions will be
better, pollution factor is reduced and thus car goes on smoothly and steadily

B:
Fuel Input: If the car is fed with "leaded petrol mixed with kerosene"
Result on Engine: The engine efficiency decreases, does not run for a long time, causes pollution, working conditions deteriorate,
and the car is always bumpy and unsteady

C:
Fuel Input: If the car is fed with "low quality adulterated diesel mixed with leaded petrol and kerosene", just because it is also considered as fuel
Result on engine: It not only damages the engine, but also makes sure that efficiency, long run, stability, smoothness are all destroyed, thus making the car
, a useless piece of junk

So, you decide, based on the factor that after you have invested your hard earned money to buy the car, what kind of fuel
you will feed it with?.....anyone who has read the instruction manual, understood the points mentioned, without thinking
for a second will pretty much go for the choice "A"

Using the above example, lets see what Sri Krishna beautifully says in Bhagavad Gita regarding the kinds of food....

Its only because of the huge amount of good deeds performed by us in the previous "janma" that today we are even born as "human beings" by His grace....
[You have worked hard for a long time, saved a lot of money which was earned in a right way, and hence, with that money you
buy yourself a brand new "car"]

Here "car" refers to taking up the physical form of a "human being", in this janma
"Fuel input" refers to the "kind of food" we feed this human body
"Engine" refers to the "Mind"
"Result on the Engine" refers to how our mind behaves

Just like the type of input fuel decides the way an engine functions in a car, similarly, the type of food we eat directly influences
the way our mind is going to get conditioned....what we consider as "food" is nothing but natural/artificial chemical compositions
made up of different materials available in this prakruthi...the chemical composition of every particular food is the cause for the
way our mind reacts...the chemical components present in the food have a direct influence on the way our mind works...and hence,
the type of food we eat conditions our mind into either "Saatvika guna" or "Rajo Guna" or "Tamo guna"....

So, what does the beautiful Sanathana Dharma says about the food....


[B]Input food: [Saatvika food] Food items that are succulent[filled with juice present in plants, vegetables], fatty, wholesome, and pleasing to the heart....
Example: Fruits, vegetables, milk and its products,rice, wheat and other wholesome grains certainly fall into this category
Result on Mind: Such foods conditions the mind into satvika guna, increase the duration of life,vitality, purify one’s existence and give strength, health, happiness and provide satisfaction. [B]Hence, by eating the Saatvik food, the mind stays calm, stable and can concentrate on Paramathma and the prescribed duty will be done without expectations


[B]Input food: [Rajasika food] Food items that are too bitter, too sour, too salty, too spicy, pungent, too dry and those which cause burning sensation...
Example: The extremely hot and spicy and pungent dishes we get in restaurants and those which are too spicy, bitter or dry for people who eat Saatvik food
Result on mind: Such foods cause distress, misery and disease and conditions the mind towards frustration, anger, unhappiness, desires, lamentations and the mind always will be oscillating between stability and instability...
[B]Hence, eating the Raajasika food, the mind always is unstable, enjoys and feels happy on success and laments or gets angry on failure, thus making it unstable,
result oriented, and unable to concentrate on Paramathma completely....


[B]Input food: [Tamasika food] Food that is stale and not fresh, which is raw and tasteless, which is putrid, about to decay or decomposed, that which is foul and impure
made up of another dead body's flesh, that which is left over.....
Example: Eating the flesh of an animal, that too after it has been killed, just for the sake of sense(tongue) gratification,
eating an egg(try searching for how an egg is produced before eating a cake which contains egg, next time) which actually contains the ingredients that can form a new life
...eating the tasteless raw food...
Result on mind: Such food have chemical compositions which turn the mind even more evil...a mind that is ready to kill another animal, just to gratify its senses
is already evil..and eating more such food slowly make it even more evil..and thus such a mind will not hesitate to kill other people without any mercy....

Hence the mind, completely will not be able concentrate on Paramathma, always nourishs ego, gets into a bewildered state and instead of going in the right path, it gains pleasure in killing others and always indulges in violence....
So, now you do the logic...meat, weather lab grown or natural, gives tongue the taste of meat only because of its chemical composition...

This is the beauty of Sanathna Dharma...it does not force you to do any particular act...Sanathana Dharma is a protocol or
a manual which lists out what happens when a particular action is done...and the choice is entirely yours...as you very much
know what will happen when you perform such an action....

Important note: Some claim that eating flesh gives them strength, proteins, vitamins etc....well for all such people a couple of facts
Elephant: The strongest and one of the healthiest animal on earth..is Vegetarian...
Blue Whale: The strongest and one of the healthiest animal in water..is Vegetarian...
If at all one needs proteins, vitamins and strength...it can of course be very easily gained with a healthy vegetarian diet..
regarding eating tamasika food[just because it may have proteins, etc], well, is exactly like adding adulterated petrol, just because it is also a fuel...

Seeker2011
28 January 2011, 08:47 AM
I see nothing wrong in eating lab grown meat.

Buddha was non-veg. The Ramakrishna Mission also doesn't impose dietary restrictions on its followers. Hitler was a vegetarian. Dietary habits don't really have any impact on your spiritual progress.

Plants have life . When you tear off a leaf or flower or a fruit of a plant to eat it the plant feels the pain. Only you don't get to hear the plant's pain. Ideally to practice ahimsa one should live on air and water only as a few saints have done in the past.

Eastern Mind
28 January 2011, 10:20 AM
Dietary habits don't really have any impact on your spiritual progress.


Vannakkam Seeker: I'm not sure of what or where this belief comes from. Many of us would disagree, but of course you are free to draw your own conclusions. I'm certainly curious as to how you came to this. To me, its almost like saying dietary habits don't have any impact on health.

Aum Namasivaya

Arjuni
28 January 2011, 09:17 PM
Just to dispute a minor point: Hitler was not a vegetarian. This article (http://www.actionforanimalsnetwork.org/hitler_not_veg.htm) neatly summarizes some of the evidence presented to the New York Times in 2005, which prompted them to print a retraction of that supposed "fact." Hitler's "vegetarianism" was a propaganda myth, created by Minister of Propaganda Goebbels to emphasize Hitler's supposed ascetic character and imply that he denied himself even the most everyday sense-pleasures in order to better serve his people.

(Incidentally, two of the works cited in that press release - Speer's autobiography and Payne's book - are quite interesting reading.)

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Sahasranama
28 January 2011, 11:49 PM
Thanks for dispelling that myth, Indraneela. Now the meat eaters can't throw that in our faces anymore. :D

And EM, be bold, tell him how wrong he is. :p

Chandogya Upanishad:

आहारशुद्धौ सत्त्वशुद्धौ ध्रुवा स्मृतिः
स्मृतिलम्भे सर्वग्रन्थीनां विप्रमोक्ष
āhāraśuddhau sattvaśuddhau dhruvā smṛtiḥ
smṛtilambhe sarvagranthīnāṁ vipramokṣa

I have even heard one Sanskrit scholar say that he eats hot dogs. All this pandityam is useless, if someone cannot even give up being a gohatyari (cow killer).

Seeker2011
29 January 2011, 09:40 AM
I have even heard one Sanskrit scholar say that he eats hot dogs. All this pandityam is useless, if someone cannot even give up being a gohatyari (cow killer).

Namaste,

If one doesn't feel revulsion in eating meat and can digest it what is wrong with that ? Even if you eat vegetables and fruits only they are also life. Unlike some saints who claim or claimed in the past that they can live by breathing air only, most ordinary people need chemical energy to survive. Whether you consume plants or animal products you are eating life. Every thing is Shiva, is it not ?

I feel this way and this post is not intended to hurt anyone's feelings.

Om shanti shanti.

NayaSurya
29 January 2011, 11:30 AM
I see nothing wrong in eating lab grown meat.

Buddha was non-veg. The Ramakrishna Mission also doesn't impose dietary restrictions on its followers. Hitler was a vegetarian. Dietary habits don't really have any impact on your spiritual progress.

Plants have life . When you tear off a leaf or flower or a fruit of a plant to eat it the plant feels the pain. Only you don't get to hear the plant's pain. Ideally to practice ahimsa one should live on air and water only as a few saints have done in the past.




It is true some spiritual people have been non veg and that some evil people are veg. Perhaps not Hitler...but the one who came here and leached off my family was a wicca/pseudo Hindu vegan who, though maintained this strict veg diet, used recreational drugs and had promiscuous sex. I have met many.

But, this diet is just one part of a very large puzzle...it isn't the final step...it's one of many. Just as reading the BG doesn't instantly make you a spiritually advanced being...or going to Temple...or doing mantra...you know? It's a very large group of practices...each one sets you further upon the path.

So while you will see vegans who are morally bankrupt, it is because they lack all these other vital pieces which are part of the whole spiritual picture.

Now to the topic of plants, yes...every plant is a life form and when plants are sewn into soil, they take up space for indigenous plants which feed wildlife which cause animals to starve, especially on large production farms with many acres.

They drain wet lands to make more produce, causing the animals to die in even greater numbers. Plowing fields kill mice, rabbits and other wild life which had come to live under the field in burrow...

Birds retain information about places with plentyful food and water, when they come to roost back in these places during the Spring to have offspring and the water is gone...they abandon the nests and the eggs die.

All food has a price which is why it's almost as important how much we eat as it is what we eat.

I have to be sure that my life and the life of my family is worth this great price of life that we consume each and every day.

My family is mixed in our diets, some eat no meat, others eat little or no meat. As they were raised in a home with one trying to avoid meat as much as possible. Honestly, in America it is very difficult because things have meat products inside of them that you would never expect. Chewy Sweet Tarts for example...even black beans in the can often contain beef lard.

I am suspect of everything now...

As you can see, I understand this problem intimately...it's hard to read every lable...and the only option is to buy very expensive produce which also has caused animals to die...so in the end I am left at odds with this.

But I do strive on and continue to improve in any way I can.

Because this is one piece to the puzzle, it really is.

Arjuni
01 February 2011, 02:08 AM
Sahasranama, no problem. I wonder why Hitler's supposed dietary habits are used as a support for the opposite choice; it's not a really sound argument, is it? If Hitler had enjoyed knitting, would we all take up macramé or cross-stitch, fearing that knitting is a key step in the institution of a psychotic totalitarian regime? Technically, Hitler also breathed, drank water, and used the toilet, but I don't see anyone renouncing those evil fascist habits!

NayaSurya, what you wrote was just perfect. So many stories in Sanatana Dharma emphasise absolute devotion and purity over empty forms or individual practices cut off from a larger spiritual life, and rightfully so.

Seeker2011, everything is indeed the great Supreme, but most of us don't possess the beautiful, blissful, constant awareness of this, the heightened and refined vision to see heaven in every waking moment and every thing and being around us. It's being Shiva that allows honey and poison to be all the same, and most of us don't live at that level. For myself, I can't even put full focus on my meal while I'm eating it, much less fully honour the mystery of life and death and comprehend the enormity of seed-root-fruit-hands-fire-service that put the meal before me. (You do make a valid point in that plants are not immune to ill effects. There are folks like the Jains who exercise great care to keep from killing anything, and won't touch any food that involves harming a plant, like root vegetables.)

A religious vegetarian tries to cultivate a selfless respect for life, one strong enough to outweigh considerations like sense-satisfaction; the vegetarian diet isn't a magic wand bestowing purity, but a natural choice made by one who wishes to fully live by those beliefs. Love and devotion are strengthened and purified when expressed in daily life, and that is how the "spiritual progress" of vegetarianism happens. Ideally, one learns to love all, embrace all...possessing the power to kill or harm, but absolutely freed from the desire to use or benefit from it.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

devotee
01 February 2011, 03:29 AM
Namaste NayaSurya and Indraneela & all,

I agree with what NayaSurya and Indraneela said. I remember a story told by Maharishi Yogananda ji :

A siddha Guru had a number of disciples with him. They, once, proceeded for nearby city. This was long journey & they had to take shelter at various places at different homes on the way. However, Guru advised the disciples to take only bland vegetarian food & he also used to advise the hosts accordingly. However, this rule was not applicable to Guru himself. He did not make any special demands himself and ate anything that host offered including very delicious non-veg food. This created doubts in the mind of one of the disciples. He saw it an injustice done to him and others. How can Guruji himself enjoy chicken-curry & rice and asked them to eat only plain food, milk and fruits ? ... It was certainly not fair and injustice should not be tolerated ... he thought. He started telling this to other disciples who were aghast at the thought of having doubts on Guru.

Finally, the Guru came to know what was cooking. He called the disgruntled disciple and said to him lovingly, "See, food doesn't affect me but it would affect you as you still have not become spiritually strong. That is why I made this rule for the good of all of you." But the disgruntled disciple was not satisfied with this explanation. He said, "Why Guru ji ? I am younger than you and I can digest much better than you can do. Why can't I take all those delicious foods that you yourself enjoy ?" Guru ji said, "OK. So be it. Now you will eat whatever I will eat."

At the next halt, Guru ji stopped at some householder's place. The chief of the house came to them and asked what they would like to eat. Guru ji said, " Bring red hot burning charcoals for me and my this disciple and simple cooked rice and curry for others". The host was astonished at this request but did exactly what was told to him. Guru ji started eating the red hot burning charcoals with ease as if he was eating some very delicious food. The disciple was now nervous & he fell at Guru ji's feet. Guru ji lifted him up and said to him, " For those who have realised Self ... everything is but Brahman. There is no difference between anything ... everything is same as anything can be converted into any other thing because the essence of everything is same. However, until you attain that state don't start copying a Self-realised man ... otherwise you would land up in similar painful situations. I wanted you to save you from that.".

OM

SanathanaDharma
01 February 2011, 05:24 AM
Dear Seeker2011,

Lets first of all clarify two important terms you have taken for granted...
- Life
- Pain

you claim that "plants have life".....can please define the term "Life"

you also claim that "plants feel the pain"...can you please interpret the terms "feel" and "pain"

and also can you please throw some light on what or which part of the plant actually "feels" the "pain" ...

Once, you give your understanding on the above questions, we can discuss the real meaning of the terms mentioned above in order to clarify the doubt you have.....

Seeker2011
02 February 2011, 03:21 AM
Dear Seeker2011,

Lets first of all clarify two important terms you have taken for granted...
- Life
- Pain

you claim that "plants have life".....can please define the term "Life"

you also claim that "plants feel the pain"...can you please interpret the terms "feel" and "pain"

and also can you please throw some light on what or which part of the plant actually "feels" the "pain" ...

Once, you give your understanding on the above questions, we can discuss the real meaning of the terms mentioned above in order to clarify the doubt you have.....

Please take the trouble to read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_%28paranormal%29

Seeker2011
02 February 2011, 03:24 AM
Dear Seeker2011,

Lets first of all clarify two important terms you have taken for granted...
- Life
- Pain

you claim that "plants have life".....can please define the term "Life"

you also claim that "plants feel the pain"...can you please interpret the terms "feel" and "pain"

and also can you please throw some light on what or which part of the plant actually "feels" the "pain" ...

Once, you give your understanding on the above questions, we can discuss the real meaning of the terms mentioned above in order to clarify the doubt you have.....

Please also read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F

SanathanaDharma
04 February 2011, 03:48 AM
Dear Seeker2011,

Thanks for answering my first question and also for the interesting link....

i assume that your understanding regarding the term "Life" is based on the explanations and analysis provided by physicist Erwin Schrödinger....

Before getting to the details of our discussion, can you also please provide your understanding to the second and third question....regarding the term "Pain" and what or which part of the plat "feels the pain"...

Once you have given you understanding regarding the other two questions, we can start our discussion...