Hint of Eternal Damnation?

[Gopal Dasa]

asurim yonim apanna
mudha janmani janmani
mam aprapyaiva kaunteya
tato yanty adhamam gatim

Attaining Repested birth amongst the species of demonic life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abomidable type of existence.

According to many followers of Madhva, this verse (16:20) from the Bhagavad-Gita gives hints to Eternal Damnation. I would say that this verse just means that Demonic persons cant come to God because you must first stop sinful activity before you can approach God.

Are there other Hindu's who believe that this Krsna is really refering to an Eternal Damnation? To me, Krsna is perfectly and infinitly mercyfull and that any Eternal Damnation is not possible. Krsna also says in the Gita:


nehabhikrama-naso 'sti
pratyavayo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya
trayate mahato bhayat

In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.


I believe that all of us have some type of spiritual advancement, no matter how low, and because of that, eternal damnation is not possible.

May I have other opinions?

[Ekanta]

Namaste Gopal Dasa

The vers 16:20 speaks about deluded people who fall lower and lower.
Because they are deluded they: verily (eva) not attain (aprāpya) Me (mām).
It is as eternal as the jiva is deluded :)


2.40 is a nice vers. I read it like this :

It peaks about “buddhi-yoga”
Before doing any actions we should consult our discrimination (buddhi) to find out if it is right or wrong. If we do this and act accordingly our actions will not be harmful and the effort will not be wasted, i.e. it will give good result. It protects from fear since we adhere to righteousness (dharmasya). This can be easily checked since we have a conscience! This is a great path for kali-yuga, since we are tempted all the time. I would go so far as to say its the very foundation! Loving Krishna and acting according to dharma is the same thing.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

One cannot read śloka 16:20 without considering 16:19. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us what happens to those that are narādhamān.
Narādhamān = nara+ adha +mān ; nara = man or humans + adha = not possessing virtue + mān = honor and respect .
Hence narādhamān are those humans devoid/not possessing virtue, honor or repect. It is they who are cast into material existence again and again based upon their repeated choices.
It is they who have the greatest difficulty of approaching the Supreme, as they are mindless to this level of Being and think the 'world' as they see it is all that there is.

This is the greatest level of moha ( delusion). Not knowing what you don't know. This is a burden for some humans.
Svāmī lakṣman-ju says it this way: Its not so much what you don't know, but what you do know that is just not right.

So, now what to do? All hope is lost for the human that took a wrong turn? We must go back to chapter 4 and the 36th śloka.
Kṛṣṇa-ji tells us, even if you were the most sinful of all sinners, you would cross over all evil by the raft of knowledge alone.

Nothing is so purifying as knowledge ... bhāgavad gītā chapter 4 , 38th śloka.

I found, and continue to find this to be true.

praṇām

[Ekanta]

A Yajvan... what would we do without you?
Im just greatful you are here!

[Sahasranama]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

One cannot read śloka 16:20 without considering 16:19. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us what happens to those that are narādhamān.
Narādhamān = nara+ adha +mān ; nara = man or humans + adha = not possessing virtue + mān = honor and respect .


Namaste yajvan, isn't the assigned meaning to the syllable mān a little subjective? Most commentators translate naradhaman as lowest of man, nara + adhama in plurar and accusative, right? Madhvacharya was the only one who interpretated this as a class of beings who are eternally doomed.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Sahasranama


Namaste yajvan, isn't the assigned meaning to the syllable mān a little subjective? Most commentators translate naradhaman as lowest of man, nara + adhama in plurar and accusative, right? Madhvacharya was the only one who interpretated this as a class of beings who are eternally doomed.
A valid & reasonable point.

narādhama नराधम (masculine gender) is defined as a low or vile man , a wretch.
Where does man come from? The word nara. This adhama = lowest , vilest , worst , very low or vile or bad , and with this we can
see the definition.

Yet when the word is offered as narādhamān = nara+ adha +mān ; nara = man or humans + adha = not possessing virtue
+ mān = honor and respect , it pushed me to to review the word a bit differently.

At the end of the day it seems possible that one 'not possessing virtue, honor or respect' can easily co-mingle in the definition of
a 'low or vile man'. Yet no matter... if one took a look at mān - to honour , respect ,
then clicked to mā ( 4th derivative) you find a definition of poison.

So, pending one's frame of mind and the desire to dig into the words at hand we can come to vile ( through mā),
Yet for me and my orientation I prefer nara+ adha +mān coming from the Lord's mouth.

praṇām

[sanjaya]

I've thought about this verse before. God seems to leave evil people to their own devices by continuously leaving them to be born as asuras. However, I'm also aware of a teaching (I'm not sure what Scripture it comes from) which states that anyone who dies directly at the hands of God achieves moksha instantly. I suppose that one such example would be Ravana, who was killed by Sri Rama.

Does anyone else know of this teaching, and where it comes from?

[Sahasranama]

I've thought about this verse before. God seems to leave evil people to their own devices by continuously leaving them to be born as asuras. However, I'm also aware of a teaching (I'm not sure what Scripture it comes from) which states that anyone who dies directly at the hands of God achieves moksha instantly. I suppose that one such example would be Ravana, who was killed by Sri Rama.

Does anyone else know of this teaching, and where it comes from?This is correct, it's mentioned in various sources that one who dies from the hands of god will attain mukti. Ravana did not attain mukti directly, because he was cursed by the kumaras to take birth on earth three times. In his previous life he was Hiranyaksha and in his next life he was Shishupala. Even asuras can have bhakti for Bhagavan, like Kansa, he never thought of anyone else than Krishna, although it was in a state of fear and anger. This is the ISCKON translation:




anta-kale ca mam eva
smaran muktva kalevaram
yah prayati sa mad-bhavam
yati nasty atra samsayah


SYNONYMS
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifanta-kale--at the end of life; ca--also; mam--unto Me; eva--certainly; smaran--remembering; muktva--quitting; kalevaram--the body; yah--he who; prayati--goes; sah--he; mat-bhavam--My nature; yati--achieves; na--not; asti--there is; atra--here; samsayah--doubt.


TRANSLATION
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifAnd whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.

[sanjaya]

Thanks Sahasranama. For awhile there I thought I was imagining this. Obviously I have more Scripture to read.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

There isn’t much for me to add except how can anyone or a religion can have this notion that god would abandon part of his creation to rot in hell. How can he be called Karuna ke sagar (ocean of mercy) if he were to cast someone permanently in such a position ? It is not possible thankfully Lord Krishna does not say so.

This is what he says unambiguously.

ye yatha mam prapadyante
tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
mama vartmanuvartante
manusyah partha sarvasah

All of them--as they surrender unto Me--I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha. 4.11

What is more, even if we are destined to ‘tato yanty adhamam gatim’ through our own karma we are never alone as he says

isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna,

Lets face it our destination is carved up by our own desires and karma what we remember is what we desire the most all through out our existence it not as if I will remember god at the time of death and bingo I will be liberated

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya
sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. 8.6

And finally here what he says

nadatte kasyacit papam
na caiva sukrtam vibhuh
ajnanenavrtam jnanam
tena muhyanti cantata

Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. 5.15

Jai Shree Krishna

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Śrī rām jai rām

http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/media/users/admin/ramachandra.jpg

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté ganeshprasad,


Pranam all

This is what he says unambiguously.

ye yatha mam prapadyante
tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
mama vartmanuvartante
manusyah partha sarvasah

All of them--as they surrender unto Me--I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha. 4.11
Jai Shree Krishna
Talk to us a bit about the nature of this surrender. How does it occur ? How does one know that surrender has occurred properly?

Here's one word on which I think this śloka rests: prapadyante . We can look at this prapadyante in the following ways:

prapad +yan+ te
prapad = to take refuge; this leads us to padyate - to throw one's self down.
yan = yad = whoever; also yád (mascline gender). = puruṣa = humans or man
te = ta = virtue, also nector
We can see here it's the person (puruṣa) who takes refuge, to throw one's self down. I think ( from my orientation) the brilliance of this word prapadyante lies in padyate to throw one's self down. This has two meanings - being humble no doubt but also giving up the lower self, the ego the minor things of being human.
Yet to do this completely is not an action, or a mental point of view one performs; It is done via meditation 'giving up completely' the relative field of life when one transcends into the Supreme and achieves the nectar (ta) the virtue that accompanies this.


Another view
pra + padya +ante

pra = in front
padya = belonging to the foot
ante = anta= in the end; also definite ascertainment , certainty This suggests to me the notion of surrender at the feet (padya) of the Supreme , in front of Him (pra) as in the end ( ante) one is sure to attain (ante) the Divine.


praṇām

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Yajvan


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Talk to us a bit about the nature of this surrender. How does it occur ? How does one know that surrender has occurred properly?
praṇām

We can talk about the nature off surrender in our own understanding , you have offered one view that is good but the surrender comes in various way, how do we know that surrender is proper you ask? Christians and Muslims also surrender to the will off god or alha what is their destination?

Very simply put in my own little understanding, what good is a surrender if its not in action, now yajvan may ask me that the muslims do in their jihad, to that I would say what good is an action that do not radiates peace and harmony. But Krishna says Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha. So who am I to argue, eventually we all get that chance to surrender to him properly
　
　
Now I can go on and give my opinion and I have many, not always in tune with Lord Krishna, lately I have been torn by the hate that has been dominated in HDF regarding radical universalism what ever the merit or demerit it is not very healthy, don’t get me wrong I wish I never had to encounter Islam or the Christians that’s not going to be anytime soon.

Coming back to surrender Lord Krishna advises in chapter 12 if you can not do this do that and so on so forth but the verse no 18/19 sums it up for me and I quote.

samah satrau ca mitre ca
tatha manapamanayoh
sitosna-sukha-duhkhesu
samah sanga-vivarjitah
tulya-ninda-stutir mauni
santusto yena kenacit
aniketah sthira-matir
bhaktiman me priyo narah

One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contamination, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn't care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and engaged in devotional service, is very dear to Me.

Jai Shree Krishna

[kd gupta]

Actually nothing bad or good is eternal . As quoted....nehabhikrama-naso 'sti
pratyavayo na vidyate , In this there is no loss of effort, nor is there any harm (the production of contrary results
or transgression).
This statement in gita makes krsn as madhusudana . Also krsn says...samaadhau na vidheeyate ,that determinate faculty is not manifest that is steadily bent on meditation and
Samadhi (the state of Superconsciousness).
In ch 15 Tameva chaadyam purusham prapadye
Yatah pravrittih prasritaa puraanee ,Seek
refuge in that Primeval Purusha whence streamed forth the ancient activity or energy.
That is eternal and eternal bliss of course .

[Sudarshan]

If you literally read the verses 16.19-20. the following conclusions may be drawn.

1. The continued fall of the jIva is imminent.
2. Ataining the Lord is impossible.
3. In that fallen state the jIva will not have any opportunity to mingle with the wise or follow any form of religion expounded by the scripture.
4. Continued indulgence in sin leads to a cascade of downfalls inmical to the pursuit of moxa.

These verses are a warning to each and every one of us - As long as you have not found yourself in such a situation like the one mentioned above, try by all means to attain the divine qualities ( sattva guNa-s) needed to liberate yourself. As long as a glimmer of these daivI sampat can be cultivated the spiritual progress will be there. But once you have landed in a kind of birth that has so much ignorance written over it, there is no way of pursuing any kind of sAdhana. The thick fog of sin will cover the face of truth in its entirerity that there will simply be no way out.

One might say that knowledge can remove any sin. That is correct. But if we do not strive to attain the divine qualities when we are in a position to do that, we may find ourselves in a condition where we would not even beleive in religion, dharma and such and under such circumstances there will be no more hope for the upward journey.

The Lord is giving a severe warning to those who think that they would get moxa one day because everyone is ultimate destined to do so. There are no draw of lots in the kingdom of God and if you think that you would be liberated without actively pursuing it then you are fooling yourself. Make hay while the sun shines. If in your present birth you beleive in God, in dharma and in the higher puruShartas make the maximum benefit out of it and dont leave anything to chance.

After expounding the gory consequences of the downward spiral of no return, the Lord then talks of matters that dispel the pall of gloom. The very next stanza talks of the three doors of disaster - lust, anger and greed. You are exhorted to give up these three evils by exercising your firm will and by surender to the divine will.

Is there an eternal damnation? Theoretically there is, and once a jIva has gone below a threshold he will no longer get births conducive to the practice of virtue and therefore he can only go down. It is inevitable that he will end up in the eternal hells. But note that a long narakavAsa will burn up the sins ultimately however great the sins maybe. So it is entirely possible for some one to rebound even from that lowest hell. A eternal hell may therefore mean a hell lasting for a very long duration, perhaps billions or trillions of years.
It is unlikely that there will be a truly eternal hell because there will come a time when everything will dissolve in Brahman, and where will the hells be then?

[charlebs]

the more you decieve your true self (the soul) the more likely you are able to approach the lower planetary systems where everyone lives in passion of ignorence.
it is a form of damnation but vishnu also cares about the demons, so he will take form to inspire them to reach upwards to earth again.

[pineblossom]

There are those who will never hear the voice of the Lord. They are held captive as Gollum was held captive to the ring. They are beyond our help and we should take care that we do not get infected by their choices.

[charlebs]

There are those who will never hear the voice of the Lord. They are held captive as Gollum was held captive to the ring. They are beyond our help and we should take care that we do not get infected by their choices.

digital bank account numbers have become their god

in holland it is not appropriate to ask how much someone has, other countries harrass you with it

[anirvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté ganeshprasad,


Talk to us a bit about the nature of this surrender. How does it occur ? How does one know that surrender has occurred properly?

Here's one word on which I think this śloka rests: prapadyante . We can look at this prapadyante in the following ways:

prapad +yan+ te
prapad = to take refuge; this leads us to padyate - to throw one's self down.
yan = yad = whoever; also yád (mascline gender). = puruṣa = humans or man
te = ta = virtue, also nector
We can see here it's the person (puruṣa) who takes refuge, to throw one's self down. I think ( from my orientation) the brilliance of this word prapadyante lies in padyate to throw one's self down. This has two meanings - being humble no doubt but also giving up the lower self, the ego the minor things of being human.
Yet to do this completely is not an action, or a mental point of view one performs; It is done via meditation 'giving up completely' the relative field of life when one transcends into the Supreme and achieves the nectar (ta) the virtue that accompanies this.




Another view
pra + padya +ante

pra = in front
padya = belonging to the foot
ante = anta= in the end; also definite ascertainment , certainty This suggests to me the notion of surrender at the feet (padya) of the Supreme , in front of Him (pra) as in the end ( ante) one is sure to attain (ante) the Divine.


praṇām
I would like to know the true nature of surrender. how exactly to surrender ? and at whose feet ? we are seeing anybody in front of us and we again dont know what is supreme"s wish is as most of the time we refer our own wish arising from ego,desire and ignorance as supreme"s wish . i want to know practical way of surrender.

2nd thing i want to put my view that..... eternal damnation is referred to UNCERTAINTY here . as once we die with lower desire, who knows we will get Human birth again and when ? its like eternity for practical purpose. it may takes billions years to finish 84 lakhs lower yonis to come back to human form and again we dont know we may pursue spiritual path in that life or not. as we can see practically 99% peoples are atheist though may say they believe in god,but by heart only few.

[iksvakave]

Chapter 16 ---- Verse
20
Asurim Yonim apanna mudha janmani janmani

Mam aprapy’avia kaunteya tato yanty adhamam gatim



Asurim ---Atheistic or demonic
Yonim ---species
Apanna --- should I stop from falling into [Telugu]

Mudha --- O fool

Janmani --- life after life
Janamni --- life after life



Mam – me
Aprapy aiva --- not
deserving certainly [Telugu—praptam—something
received or deserved like a blessing for example so therefore aprapy – opposite
of that and aiva is certainly (vedabase)]



Kaunteya – O son of Kunti

Yanty --- what if [Telugu --- yanty --- ]
Adhamam – Should I save
or rescue [Telugu --- adhakho--- Should
I help or save or rescue --- mam --- me ---so adhamam is --- should I help or save ]

Gatim --- that state or fate [ Telugu – gati – state or
telugu’s use it so say fate as well]



What it means?
Atheistic or demonic species ---should I stop them from
falling into ---- that fool ----into life after life



Not deserving of me certainly ----O son of kunti ---- what
if I can’t save or rescue that state or fate


In complete sentences:

The atheistic or demonic species should I stop that fool from falling into this world life after life? They are not deserving of me O’ son of Kunti.
What if I can’t save or rescue that state or fate.

THAT IS ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR YOU! :)

I hope my sanskrit interpretation does not make you angry.
Really, the way I see it Mahabhart probably took place some million years ago. I really believe language involves or gets mixed up with other languages and pronunciations change etc. What do I know? Nothing! {: I

Please give me feedback! Iam getting extremely discouraged that no one is responding to my intepretations. Are they that aweful?