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satay
11 November 2006, 09:37 PM
Is man's soul eternal? What is the christian prespective? What does your scripture say?

nirotu
14 November 2006, 08:03 PM
Is man's soul eternal? What is the christian prespective? What does your scripture say?

Dear Satay:

If you ask this question to a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Christian you will get three different answers. Since the question is directed to obtain a Christian perspective, here is what I think. Again, this is my interpretation of the Bible.

Taking the literal interpretation of Genesis where creationism is believed, the soul is created by the creator. There is no pre-existence of soul. The soul is not inherited but created.

Was the soul created at conception? If so, was it created by parents during the reproductive process or by God?

My understanding is that the above statement is more philosophical than Biblical. The soul is a spiritual entity and, therefore, immaterial and has no parts. Therefore, it must have been created out of nothing because the souls of parents cannot split off parts to form child’s soul. Therefore, it is not created by parents. Therefore, the creation makes the presence of soul to make the body complete. Since soul can live without body as it is formless but body cannot be without soul.

There are some scriptural supports to this creation theory:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death "the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (RSV).

In Isaiah 57:16 God says, "I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry, for from me proceeds the Spirit, and I have made the spirit of life."

This verse contrasts the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from God, with the spirit of life that animates his creatures. It cannot be the Holy Spirit as it is uncreated. The common-sense interpretation of this is the soul comes from God rather than from the parents.
In Hebrew thought the spirit is the principle of life - the thing that makes one alive. If a spirit is what makes a body alive, then so long as the body is alive it has a spirit. Since the child's body is alive at the time of conception - the child must have a spirit from the moment of conception.

In Psalm 51:5 David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV).

Thus, David already had a sinful nature at the time of conception, even though he had not yet "done anything good or bad" (see Rom. 9:11). But a sinful nature is a spiritual rather than a physical reality. Therefore, David must have had a spirit at the time of conception.

Obviously, this view is contrasting to Hindu view or Buddhist view and will not be accepted by them.


Blessings,

satay
16 November 2006, 02:44 PM
namaste nirotu,

Thank you for the post.

I am not sure I understand correctly the christian perspective that you presented.




Taking the literal interpretation of Genesis where creationism is believed, the soul is created by the creator. There is no pre-existence of soul. The soul is not inherited but created.



So what you are implying is that soul is NOT eternal, if we take literal interpretation of Genesis.

Since if something is a construct of Creation, it can not be eternal according to your post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=8481#post8481



Was the soul created at conception? If so, was it created by parents during the reproductive process or by God?



This is the second level of question that I am not prepared to ask yet. At this point, I am only wondering if the soul is 'eternal' or not, and based on your understanding of Gensis, soul is created so therefore, it can not be eternal.



My understanding is that the above statement is more philosophical than Biblical. The soul is a spiritual entity and, therefore, immaterial and has no parts. Therefore, it must have been created out of nothing because the souls of parents cannot split off parts to form child’s soul. Therefore, it is not created by parents. Therefore, the creation makes the presence of soul to make the body complete. Since soul can live without body as it is formless but body cannot be without soul.


Appreciate your understanding and philosophical view but I am more interested in the bibilcal view at this point. Isn't it that christian claim that scripture is the only source of knowledge. If we go outside of the scope of the bible now to offer philosophies then there is no coming back...



There are some scriptural supports to this creation theory:



so, the soul is not eternal according to christian understanding.

Znanna
16 November 2006, 04:27 PM
/not a Christian but a Znanna perspective :)

"Soul" is a reflection of nothing, outside of the perceptual limitations of time.




Namaste,
ZN

satay
20 November 2006, 01:23 AM
Continuing my analysis on christian perspective of Soul

From posts above we conclude that the soul is not eternal or immortal. This means that soul will not remain in existence forever and will end one day regardless of where it is after death. According to christianity, the soul can go to heaven or hell depending on if you chose to live the life of sin (disobedience of god) or not. However, since the soul is not eternal, it means that regardless of your choice, you will not be in hell or heaven forever...one day you 'will' die. Anything that is created shall die one day. Since soul is created...it will die.

Hence, the theory about 'living in heaven with god or buring in hell forever and ever is false.

satay
20 November 2006, 01:28 AM
Therefore, it must have been created out of nothing

This is not logical. How can something be created out of 'nothing'. Is this nothing same as the 'void' God that bible instructs us to worship and love. Since we are not to make idols of God how else are we then to concentrate our mind? on void, on nothing...the nothing that creates souls...

How can you create something out of nothing? If 'nothing' is there...only 'nothing' will come out of it, that 'nothing' can not become 'some'thing!

jaggin
25 January 2007, 01:00 PM
Continuing my analysis on christian perspective of Soul

From posts above we conclude that the soul is not eternal or immortal. This means that soul will not remain in existence forever and will end one day regardless of where it is after death. According to christianity, the soul can go to heaven or hell depending on if you chose to live the life of sin (disobedience of god) or not. However, since the soul is not eternal, it means that regardless of your choice, you will not be in hell or heaven forever...one day you 'will' die. Anything that is created shall die one day. Since soul is created...it will die.

Hence, the theory about 'living in heaven with god or buring in hell forever and ever is false.

This statement by using the word "will" suggests a necessary destiny. I would prefer to say that there may come a time when God wishes to destroy a soul or all of them. In the meantime the soul is as good as eternal because nothing short of God can destroy it. I suspect that the soul has been around for millions of years already.

I define this word as meaning no forseeable end. A man will get married and tell his wife he will love her forever because he can't see an end to his love but one day he has a change of heart and his forever turns into divorce. Forever is a meaningless term in Paradise (Heaven) because there is no time there. A person is in heaven with no determined end but a soul may choose to re-enter the time cycle.

satay
25 January 2007, 01:06 PM
I suspect that the soul has been around for millions of years already.



namaste jaggin,
what is your suspicion based on as far as christian theology? Are you saying that 'your' soul has been around for millions of years? is that an accepted christian view?

satay
25 January 2007, 02:42 PM
I cannot think of any traditional Christian denomination that believes souls have been around for years, as in reincarnation. Growing up, I would ask repeatedly about these things, and the general agreement from a Christian perspective is that each soul is new on birth and ends up permanently in Heaven or Hell, unless you are Catholic and then, there is the belief in Pergatory.


Yes, that is also my understanding of the christian view.

The crux of my point is that whatever is born or produced or had a starting point must by logic have an ending point. Since souls are 'created' according to the christian view, it is logically false to then assert that souls will end up in hell or heaven for 'eternity'. Unless according to the christian view eternity doesn't really mean eternity and just means a very very long time (?)

So that proves that the christian claim of soul being 'eternal' is false because if soul is created then it must cease to exist one day regardless of if it is hell or heaven.

But jaggin's suspicion is very interesting to say the least and seems influenced by eastern understanding of souls. I don't think it is an authentic christian view to say that souls have been around for millions of years. But I will wait for his answer before I ask more questions about it.

Agnideva
25 January 2007, 02:46 PM
a) So, in other words, souls are God's creation, and souls continue to exist in heaven and hell forever. How could something created not be destroyed?

b) If souls are created (come into being), then they cannot be said to be eternal. That is, unless, you believe in two types of eternity - the eternity of God, which is beginningless, and the "eternity" of the soul, which has a beginning. Again, since something that has a beginning violates the concept of eternity, the soul cannot be called eternal.

Agnideva
25 January 2007, 04:39 PM
Hey don't shoot the messenger! :)

That is one of the many reasons I am no longer a Christian.

I believe in circles, everything a circle and in reincarnation.

Just passing on the indoctrination of my youth. ;)

Oh no, MG. That wasn't an outburst at you :). It was for the thread in general. I was just pointing out that things that come into existence cannot be called eternal, and I know you already agree with me on that point ;).

A.

vedic_kings
27 January 2007, 01:07 PM
Continuing my analysis on christian perspective of Soul

From posts above we conclude that the soul is not eternal or immortal. This means that soul will not remain in existence forever and will end one day regardless of where it is after death. According to christianity, the soul can go to heaven or hell depending on if you chose to live the life of sin (disobedience of god) or not. However, since the soul is not eternal, it means that regardless of your choice, you will not be in hell or heaven forever...one day you 'will' die. Anything that is created shall die one day. Since soul is created...it will die.

Hence, the theory about 'living in heaven with god or buring in hell forever and ever is false.

I was going to say how can a soul that is created burn in hell for eternality. But you got that covered:)

Then I thought, how can hell be eternal? Didn't Satan or God create hell? And what about heaven, was heaven created?

willie
27 January 2007, 09:37 PM
Better stand a little closer to the old testament. Hell will not last forever, at the end of time it will be destroyed and the devil and so many of the closest followers will be cast into a lake of fire. Hell is simply is simply the state of god removing its love from that soul. After all, with no body the feeling of burning fire is a bit redundant. You must have been reading the quran to come up with the fire thing.

vedic_kings
27 January 2007, 10:05 PM
Better stand a little closer to the old testament. Hell will not last forever, at the end of time it will be destroyed and the devil and so many of the closest followers will be cast into a lake of fire. Hell is simply is simply the state of god removing its love from that soul. After all, with no body the feeling of burning fire is a bit redundant. You must have been reading the quran to come up with the fire thing.

How does a soul exist without God's love?

nirotu
30 January 2007, 11:45 AM
I think the problem here is in the definition of “soul” as understood by Christians and Hindus. Both agree that an individual body has both material and immaterial parts which form the whole being. Both believe there is an immaterial part in us that is distinct from our material bodies. However, the way the immaterial aspect of body defined is rather differently by both.

For example, Christians believe in trichotomous way of looking at an individual having a Body, a Soul and a Spirit. This is trichotomy. They consider immaterial part is composed of two parts- “soul” and “spirit”. However, through scriptures one also knows that the word "soul" refers not only to the immaterial part of man but the also material part. Unlike man having a "spirit," man is a soul. In its most basic sense the word "soul" means "life."

Hindus hold another view called dichotomy where the individual is composed of two parts – “body” and “soul”. It teaches “soul” and “spirit” are interchangeable immaterial selves. In this view, the only distinction is made between material selves (body) and immaterial selves (soul/spirit).

Having said that, it is clear what Hindus call “soul (Atman)” is referred to “spirit” in Christianity and both are immaterial/eternal in nature.

Which view is correct? That depends on how the relationship of the human “soul” and “spirit” will affect one’s knowing of God. There are good arguments for accepting both views. While I am no expert in this, one can understand a little better by looking at why trichotomists make such a distinction between the “soul” and the “spirit”.

For Hindus "soul" and “spirit" are similar in the manner in which they are used in the spiritual life of the believer. However, for Christians, they are different in their reference. The soul is the seat of personality.For example, the “soul” is believed to experience elements such as intellect, thought, ideals, love, anger, emotion, discernment, choice, decision, etc,.

The “spirit”, on the other hand, is considered a seat of spirituality in man. It is a vehicle to communicate with God, which includes three main functions: conscience, intuition and communion. Conscience is the discerning organ which distinguishes right and wrong; The Intuition is the sensing organ of the human spirit… that knowledge which comes to us without any help from the mind, emotion or volition but comes intuitively. Communion is worshiping God.

They (Christians) believe organs of the soul are incompetent to worship God. God is not apprehended by our thoughts, feelings or intentions, for he can only be known directly in our spirits.
http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-spirit.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-spirit.html) , http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html).

It is important to understand that the “spirit” refers to the immaterial part of man relating man's walk with God. The "soul" refers to man's walk in the world. Thus, the "soul" is man's horizontal view with the world. The "spirit" is man's vertical view with God.

Again, it is purely my guess as to why there is trichotomy view! This is how I understand it. A key verse is Hebrews 4:12, “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

It may have been intended to differentiate between humans and other mortal species. There is something special about human. In creation, animals are created as “conscious” but humans as “self-conscious”. This distinction can be understood better by using trichotomous view.

Human beings were intended to have a relationship with God that can only be possible with “spirit” communication. The
characteristics of spirit are considered to exist beyond the physical lifespan of the individual. Such a “spirit” is also believed to retain its distinction even in liberation, enjoys its full dependence upon God and always maintains the sense of being God’s servant, all the while knowing its own nature, which is perfect knowledge and bliss (Turiya).

Blessings,

satay
30 January 2007, 05:52 PM
I think the problem here is in the definition of “soul” as understood by Christians and Hindus. Both agree that an individual body has both material and immaterial parts which form the whole being. Both believe there is an immaterial part in us that is distinct from our material bodies. However, the way the immaterial aspect of body defined is rather differently by both.


namaste nirotu,
thank you for the post. However, I don't understand how your post relates to the OP.

The point of the OP is that since soul (or spirit if you will) is created by GOD according to christianity, it can not be eternal because anything that is created must have an end. So since soul is created and thus not eternal, it goes to hell or heaven for eternity is a false statement.

are you saying that christian understanding is that soul is not created by GOD?

nirotu
30 January 2007, 08:48 PM
The point of the OP is that since soul (or spirit if you will) is created by GOD according to Christianity, it cannot be eternal because anything that is created must have an end. So since soul is created and thus not eternal, it goes to hell or heaven for eternity is a false statement.

Are you saying that Christian understanding is that soul is not created by GOD?

Dear Satay:

Who says that once created cannot last forever? This is where “eternal” differs from what we say “everlasting.”

Everlasting or eternal life has the common meaning of "no end" rather than of "no beginning." However, unlike “eternal”, everlasting has a beginning.

Since, the Bible states that man was created out of inanimate "dust", it would seem to be saying that there was no life until God put it there. Therefore, when God created man in Eden and blew into his nostrils “the breath of life,” it is evident that, in addition to filling the man’s lungs with air, God caused the life-force, or spirit, to vitalize all the cells in Adam’s body.—Ge 2:7; compare Ps 104:30; Ac 17:25. (Bible.org)

As I said in my previous post, unlike man having a "spirit," man is a soul. In its most basic sense the word "soul" means "life." It is used as a whole that constitutes body + spirit. So as human beings, we are mortal souls made from the dust. At conception, a soul or human being is created (flesh/dust + the breath of life (spirit) = soul, Gen 2:7) at death, the soul dies and the life force (spirit) returns to our creator.

I think that everlasting life and eternal life are synonymous only in the resurrection or New Heaven and New Earth, or both. I do NOT believe it necessarily means that our 'souls' remain conscious after death, and are in paradise in the company of Jesus.

Again, our semantics might be causing us to interpret differently. The problem with Christian arises when you equate “spirit” with “soul” in the literal sense. The problem goes away when you say, the “soul” is created and not the “spirit”.

Blessings,

satay
31 January 2007, 01:54 AM
Dear Satay:

Who says that once created cannot last forever? This is where “eternal” differs from what we say “everlasting.”


namaste,

According to you if something is a construct of Creation, it can not be eternal, please read your post#7 on the following thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...=8481#post8481

Your analysis on 'mind' was that since it is created it can not eternal, I extended your analysis to apply to christian understanding of soul.

Since according to christianity, soul is created, I understand that according to you it can not be eternal (since it is a construct of creation)...

nirotu
31 January 2007, 07:08 AM
namaste,

According to you if something is a construct of Creation, it can not be eternal, please read your post#7 on the following thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...=8481#post8481

Your analysis on 'mind' was that since it is created it can not eternal, I extended your analysis to apply to christian understanding of soul.

Since according to christianity, soul is created, I understand that according to you it can not be eternal (since it is a construct of creation)...

dear satay:

Show me where I said soul is eternal. You still don't seem to understand the difference between eternal and everlasting. Everlasting means "no end" but not "no beginning". If I say soul will be in hell or heaven or any other place everlastingly, I do not ascribe that to eternality at all! My belief is that soul is the life form that takes place when we are created. It is the eternal spirit that was breathed in to a body to make it a soul. Many use soul as a term to define body as a whole and that is okay. But, nowhere it is said soul is eternal, as far as I know. If I did say that then I am wrong!

Blessings,

nirotu
31 January 2007, 10:43 AM
Dear Satay:

Again, if I used the term soul and said eternal, I am wrong! Lot of times we intermix terms (soul/spirit), (eternal/everlasting) without paying attention. It is also my view that it is correct in Hinduism to interchange soul and spirit. I hope these terminologiies do not throw us off from our main focus on the creator who fashioned us so beautifully!

Blessings,

satay
04 February 2007, 05:31 PM
dear satay:

Show me where I said soul is eternal. You still don't seem to understand the difference between eternal and everlasting. Everlasting means "no end" but not "no beginning". If I say soul will be in hell or heaven or any other place everlastingly, I do not ascribe that to eternality at all! My belief is that soul is the life form that takes place when we are created. It is the eternal spirit that was breathed in to a body to make it a soul. Many use soul as a term to define body as a whole and that is okay. But, nowhere it is said soul is eternal, as far as I know. If I did say that then I am wrong!

Blessings,

namaste nirotu,

What exactly then goes to or burns in hell forever according to the christian belief?

satay
04 February 2007, 05:43 PM
according to dictionary, everlasting and eternal are synonyms.

anyhow, I am still trying to understand what burns in hell if one doesn't accept jesus as the only saviour?

Regardless of what burns in hell it can not be for eternity since whatever it is that burns was created by god at the time of birth.

another point, if god is the breathing this spirit or soul into man at the time of inception, how can this 'holy' thing (soul or spirit whatever you want to call it) become unholy that it should burn in hell? since god is all holy and good, how can he breathe something out that can become unholy and then it should burn in hell for eternity?

In post#5, I said this


Continuing my analysis on christian perspective of Soul

From posts above we conclude that the soul is not eternal or immortal. This means that soul will not remain in existence forever and will end one day regardless of where it is after death. According to christianity, the soul can go to heaven or hell depending on if you chose to live the life of sin (disobedience of god) or not. However, since the soul is not eternal, it means that regardless of your choice, you will not be in hell or heaven forever...one day you 'will' die. Anything that is created shall die one day. Since soul is created...it will die.

Hence, the theory about 'living in heaven with god or buring in hell forever and ever is false.

nirotu
06 February 2007, 04:20 PM
What exactly then goes to or burns in hell forever according to the Christian belief?

Dear Satay:

Here is what conservative Christians believe, which is quite different from Catholics.

Many conservative Christians believe that when a person dies, they enter into complete oblivion - a state of non-existence. They remain unconscious; they have no self-awareness. Their body decays. At the time of the second coming of Jesus, the dead are called from their graves; they will be resurrected with the same separated soul and reconstituted body and judged. Those who had accepted God while on earth will be given special bodies and go to Heaven; those who rejected will go to Hell destined for torment and eventual annihilation. In fact every human who has ever lived, are held in a temporary state of non-existence. Many will have been there for thousands of years before they are resurrected. They regard the other options as religious fantasy which does not exist in reality. But, of course, there is no general agreements about which are the true states.

Honestly, aren’t we all speculating what could that be? What happens after your physical body dies?" is an age old question that no one can really answer. After all these thousands and millions of years, no one can really prove what happens. We have the statements from the various religions and the beliefs of the relatively few people who dare to think about it.


Regardless of what burns in hell it can not be for eternity since whatever it is that burns was created by god at the time of birth.


That is why Christians believe it is a place where there is eventual annihilation and not eternal torment!

It seems you and MG are more preoccupied with HELL than the glorious HEAVEN that is awaiting you! The concept of Hell is not new to followers of either faith. If heaven is only for the pious and the good, then evil-minded cannot be extinguished at death nor can they reach heaven. So a hell is necessary! If you are able to think of glorious eternal heaven for being good and righteous why can’t you step further and see there is a place called hell for evildoers and the unrighteous!

Look at scriptures of Purana! We hear of Varuna thrusting the evil-doer down into the dark abyss from which he never returns. Indra is prayed to consign to the lower darkness the man who injures his worshipper. It seems to be the destiny of the wicked to fall into this dark depth and disappear. We do not as yet get the grotesque mythology of hell and its horrors of the later purana. Heaven for the righteous and the hell for the wicked is the rule, no matter who and where you are and what you believe in! (S.Radhakrishnan – Hindu Philosophy)

Instead of speculating about soul’s destiny after death, don’t you think it is much more productive to heed the call of Christ who had shown us that both heaven and hell resides within us? Why not consider the lifetime we spend on this planet as an opportunity for refining and transforming from our hell of ignorance into heaven of awareness and a deeper knowing of our true nature and connection with the Father.

Blessings,

nirotu
09 February 2007, 06:23 AM
Yes, I think it is important for two reasons. One, once you have people very close to you die, you want to know if there is a hell. And, two, once you have people tell you that those loved ones may be in hell, you have to question the sense of such things and the nature of a God that would do this.

Dear MG:


It is wrong to rely on others to tell you about that. When a person dies, the place would be surrounded by emotionally charged minds. Ask a person who likes the dead person and he will tell you the heaven is the only destination where as ask some one who hated the deceased one, he will tell you it is hell. These emotions are transitory and change at the drop of a hat. Instead, read scriptures to guide you.


On good and evil, I dont think it is that clear. We really want to think there is evil and good, that we can point at certain people or behaviors and say that is "bad". Usually, other people, not us. file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/anil/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/03/clip_image001.gifBut, I dont believe it is that easy to differentiate. Furthermore, paralleling this to sin, this is why I have a problem with the sin/damnation thing. Many people who sin are actually hurting. Example, just one of many, many I could list. I used to work with gang members. We want to think of them as evil, we think we know them, they are bad. But really, most of them are wounded boys, scared boys. So, what is wicked?
Here again, you are being very naďve to blame everything to God. I do believe it is very important to distinguish between human freedom (free will) and God’s sovereignty. It forms the basis in Christian philosophy and, in particular, the VA philosophy. An individual soul is entirely dependent on God for its activity. When God declares what is good and what is bad, supplies souls with bodies, gives power to employ them, He also becomes the cause in the ultimate sense for their freedom and bondage of souls. Yet, when we see so much misery and suffering in the world, it is not God who is responsible for it, but man, who has the power to work for good or evil. It is the will of man that seems to constitute a limitation of the absoluteness of God. It is the freedom to act that is bestowed upon souls, may also act so as to interfere with the will of God. If the absolute God is obliged to take note and act according to the law of karma, HE is not absolute at all!!! Since moral laws are eternal expression of His righteous nature, it is acceptable to say God is regarded as the one who rewards righteous and punishes the wicked!

Nirotu, you sound like a Hindu-Christian there. file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/anil/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/03/clip_image001.gifIsn't this post a mix of concepts, not just Christian? And I still love Jesus' teachings, I just don't agree with Christianity and I don't think Jesus would either. Modern Christianity has little to do with Jesus' words.

But, having said all that, I respect your right to follow what you think fits you. I spent a lot of time looking for answers in the Bible and Christianity and it did not have the answers I was looking for. Just me.
Thank you for being candid. What surprises me the most is when people say they like Jesus teachings and not the Bible. While it is understandable that Christian religion is to blame for misunderstanding, it is wrong to present Christ and the Bible in opposite squares. I do believe that the Bible is the faithful witness to the timeless spiritual truths spoken by Jesus Christ. If it weren’t for the Bible, we would not have known Jesus and His teachings!

Blessings,

jaggin
10 February 2007, 08:04 AM
namaste jaggin,
what is your suspicion based on as far as christian theology? Are you saying that 'your' soul has been around for millions of years? is that an accepted christian view?

No this is not orthodox Christian belief but I have no adherence to orthodoxy.