Flimsy faith

[teddy]

Removed to protect the innocent.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam teddy: Firstly, welcome to these forums. I certainly wouldn't generalise one man's comments to a group of around 500 million people. There is tremendous variance in the degree of tolerance people have, and this is reflected everywhere you go, on individual levels. At least he didn't say he'd kill her, like in the days when excommunication for apostacy meant burning at the stake. Now that would be at the really extreme end. Unconditional love despite the opinion or action taken by a child would be at the other extreme end of things. Personally, I draw the line at being a criminal.

Aum Namasivaya

[Adhvagat]

That shows he's insecure.

I got to know the Vedas through a ISKCON temple and here I am, researching more and more about the Vedas, trying to understand every aspect of its various philosophies.

As a matter of fact, the more you study the Vedas the more you get marvelled by its clear logic.

Usually it's the whole visual presentation of the religion that makes people look weird at it (here in the west). But now I obtained enough knowledge to present the bright side of it to those that look at the dark side.

Right now, I'm in the process of questioning ISKCON views and researching various topics on my own. In the end you can only be 100% secure about something when you questioned it in the first place. And if you happen to discover that you disagree with that certain thing... Was it ever of any use for you?

[Believer]

There are prejudices, there is rebellion, there is rejection without ever making an attempt to understand the faith, there is lack of need for faith in your youth, there is payback to parents because of real/perceived lack of love/support received from parents during the formative years and there are a million other reasons as to why kids do what they do.

Start with the title of the thread - Flimsy Faith. Doesn't the OP seem to be mad without understanding the reasons behind a person's decision? Isn't it all about not being able to get his hands on some money? Does a person have the right to deride another faith that he knows nothing about? Should your personal greed for somebody else's money be the end-all of your life?

The term faith itself, to me, means putting your trust in something without fully understanding/visualizing it. If a preliminary study shows it to be good, we accept it, and then based on our desire/need to know more, dig into the finer details. We even accept so many rituals without understanding the reason for performing them - either we don't care to know the reason, or no one is available to explain the meaning. As an example, at the time of marriage of a son, the priest performs a brief ceremony to perform the marriage of the parents first. This had been going on for generations in our culture without anyone being able to tell me why it was done, until a learned priest came along to demystify it for me - parents may quibble every day about little things in life, but performing that brief ceremony is to tell them to cease fire for a joyous moment in their lives; it is to make them aware that they should be as happy on that day, as they were on the day their son was born; that they should stand behind him as one, with joy in their hearts, to be part of the rituals for the holy alliance.

If you are fortunate enough to be born into a wholesome faith, and out of ignorance/rebellion/desire to fulfill lust, don't care about it or outright reject it; there will be a sense of disgust, a sense of betrayal, a sense of failure on the part of parents. The thrust of Western philosophy/faiths is to clarify ideas; the purpose of Vedic philosophy is to link the faithful with the divine. When a child throws away a jewel that he has been presented with, just by being born into a family, it is not hard to understand the frustration of the parents. In the West too much time is spent on debating the esoteric reasons for selecting and conditional acceptance of a faith. In Hinduism, there is no need for that. You are born into it, and that is the end of it.

Now if I were to jump to conclusions, it seems like a case of a Vaishanava Hindu girl marrying a Westerner and the father trying to put some sense into the girl's head to maintain her Hindu/Vaishanava ways. We have not been made privy to the entire scenario, but if my guess is right, is it really too much for a loving father to cajole/threaten/bribe his ignorant daughter to not give up Vaishanava faith? Do we have to accept the Western values to the hilt and say, 'Oh well she is 18 and perfectly capable of selecting what is good for her'. Does Hinduism have to be diluted to make it acceptable to Westerners? Does the OP have more on his chest than losing some money that does not belong to him in the first place?


The state of mind in which one is completely free from all disturbance... isn't that 'death'?
Is a person who makes such statements, qualified to judge Vaishavanism?
Has the sole purpose of becoming a forum member, mutated to Vaishavanism bashing?
Is there anything good in Vaishavanism?

-

[teddy]

Removed to protect the innocent.

[Adhvagat]

Something tells me you guys started in the wrong foot... :)

I think you presented little detail to the situation and expressed your view quite vaguely, hence Believer's assumptions.

Teddy, this forums alone answers your questions about Vaishnavas and not only them, but students of the whole Vedas, being of flimsy faith. Those who are humble inquirers are very intelligent people of strong faith, faith strengthed by knowledge and practice.

I joined this forum to discuss the great topics its members bring. Science and Religion and Uttara are the areas I enjoy reading the most.

[sm78]

I think you presented little detail to the situation and expressed your view quite vaguely, hence Believer's assumptions.

If one thinks details are lacking to understand the OP one can request for the same...the assumptions made by believer in reply are too personal, things which can only be known by a person who knows the OP. If that is not the case then the reply just looks like a meltdown.

Vaishnavas have a bad reput about tolerance - and the reply only gives substance to this reputation.

I agree that the OP is presumptious and without any detail background uses an event (which for all we know could be a fiction) to take a pot-shot at vaishnavas. But a more sensible reply was warrented.

[Sahasranama]

The real question is why would you leave a warm meal and hot bath and look for food in the mountains?

[teddy]

Removed to protect the innocent.

[atmarama108]

Hey Teddy, I'll try answer your questions briefly...



Does the Vaishnav faith teach specifically to avoid people who disagree with it?

Well, not so much like that. If you are trying to do anything in life (material or spiritual), generally the best thing to do is to seek out the association of like minded folk. For example, a musician hangs out with musicians and therefore cultivates his desire/ability etc. In the same way, by associating with like minded people on the spiritual path one becomes enthused. Similarly, hanging out with "materialists" or whatever will influence you in the opposite direction. So I'd venture to say that most people like to hand with those of a similar mind, not just Vaisnava's :)


If you are truely 'unnattached' from something, it could never threaten you, so why do Vaishnavas spend so much time avoiding the things they want to detach from?

I suppose not all Vaisnava's are truly unattached - we are human beings and as such are fallible soldiers. This links with my first answer.


If Vaishnavas think the physical world is less important than the spiritual world, why do they have special hairdos and clothes? Have such complicated physical rituals? ...cover their houses in statues etc? ...if they are westeners why do they rename themselves with Indian names? ...eat special diets? -The only answer I have ever been given for this is that all these things point away from the physical to the spiritual, but these are all material trappings, and it strikes me that if it is true that 'we are not the body', then these things are unimportant in a spiritual sense, and that a true spiritual master would be unafected by these things.

What you say here is true to some degree. Actually our real spiritual cultivation is internal. All spiritual advancement made is internal. But the external can assist the internal... The reason behind the special hairdos and clothes are just the same as the reason a soldier wears a uniform. He feels more like a soldier in his gear. It makes what he is doing more serious to his mind. Remember, once again, vaisnava's are human beings as well, and many "rituals" are there just to remind one of the spiritual reality. I myself am a westerner, and musician. I don't conform to the hair styles etc - but that is not to say I am against them. Actually it creates a different atmosphere :) When I go to the temple, and see the devotees jumping and dancing in exctasy with flowing dhoti's and sikha's it feels different from your everyday experience... The special diet is simple - No meat for obvious reasons... And no garlic & onion. But that becomes clear after a little while. They are very pungent foods and have a strong effect on the subtle body. But it shouldn't bother you that some persons refrain from eating such things...


(As for Vedic teachings, I am fascinated by them. However, I have not come across much vedic philosphy in relation to Vaishnavism.)

The Vedic philosophy is wonderfully summed up in Vaisnava texts Bhagavad Gita & Srimad Bhagavatam. Caitanya Caritamrita is an amazing work as well. Actually I've found the essence of all religion in these books, not just vedic :)

Hope this helps - Haribollo
Atmarama

[Sahasranama]

I don't tie myself to names like Vaishnava, Shaiva, Shakta, Smarta, Vaidik, Tantrik etc.

These are some qualities of a vaishnava from the Skanda Purana. I have no time right now, maybe someone else can translate or paraphrase.

http://vedpuran.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Skand/Skand0002.gif

[teddy]

After 10 replies, I am dissapointed with the replies I have had. If I told my story to a Christian, Sikh, Buddhist or even atheist, about a member of their faiths, the majority would respond in horror and explain that that is not what their faith is about. -Instead I have seen people excuse these actions. Say frankly creepy things like "At least he didn't kill her" (Eastern Mind), Make wild assumptions, and attack me personally (Believer). Make meaningless analogies and metaphors without giving any explanation, even posting in a language that I reckon most people here do not speak, rather than just talking in a straight forward and understandable way (Sahasranama). I think I will go and explore the other sections of Hindu Dharma Forums and leave ISKON for now.
I sincerely hope you all find peace and balance, and come to accept yourselves for who you really are.
Love -Teddy

[kallol]

Any attachement (whether to good or bad) is harmful for spiritual growth, self (mind state) and also it hurts others.

Some people get stuck to rituals and think that those are the crux of religion or life. They get removed from the actual TRUTH or the knowledge.

Again not every people will fit the same location as one does as all are unique in terms of space, time and material in their spiritual life.

So fit yourself into where you are comfortable in the spiritual journey. Live your own life and not others.

Love and best wishes