Idol worshipping

[vcindiana]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol? People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping . Even catholics worship idol Mary! Worshipping just the Cross is equally bad, real christ followers do not do that. There appears onething good in Islam that is not having an idol but its very religiousness that I cannot stand. Care to comment?

[orlando]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol?

Namaste.
Hindus worship statues because Hindu religion accept the statues worshipping.
And God Him-self requests His devotes to worship His statues and symbols.
Now I will quote the whole chapter 27 of Bhagavata Purana.In this chapter Lord Krishna/Vishnu is talking to His friend Uddhava.
By http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/bhagavatam-canto11.html

Chapter 27

On Respecting the Form of God

(1) S'rî Uddhava said: 'Please explain the yoga of the service of You as a deity, o Master; who is of that worship, to what form is one of worship and in what manner does one worship You, o Master of the Sâtvatas [see also mûrti and 11.3: 48-55]? (2) The sages Nârada, Bhagavân Vyâsa and my preceptor the son of Angirâ [Brihaspati] repeatedly say that there is nothing more conducive to welfare. (3-4) From Your lotus mouth emanated that of which the great lord unborn spoke to his sons headed by Bhrigu, to the goddess [Pârvatî] and the great lord S'iva [see B.G. 3: 9-10]; this [working for the purpose of sacrifice] indeed approved by all classes and spiritual orders of society, I think, is the most fortunate way for [even, or to deal with] women and the working class, o Magnanimous One. (5) O Lord with the Lotus Eyes, please, o Controller of All Controllers in the Universe, speak to your bhakta so full of attachment of the means of liberation from the being bound to karma.'

(6) The Supreme Lord said: 'There is indeed no end to the innumerable prescriptions for acting in yoga [see e.g. B.G. 1-6]; so, Uddhava, let me in brief explain it nicely one step at a time. (7) One should properly be of worship by choosing for one of the three kinds of processes to sacrifice: to the three of the Veda, the explanatory literatures [tantras like the pañcarâtra] and a combination of them. (8) Please hear with faith in what way a person, who to the for him relevant sacred precepts achieved the status of a second birth, with devotion should be of worship for Me. (9) With the necessary material must he, connected in bhakti, free from ulterior motives worship Me, his worshipable guru, in an image, an altar, a fire, the sun, the water or in the twiceborn heart itself [**]. (10) To the two kinds of purification one should first should bathe and brush one's teeth and secondly bathe in mantras with the application of clay and such [see tilaka, kavaca and 6.8: 3-10]. (11) Of ceremonial respect and such at the three junctures of the day performing duties as recommended by the Vedas [see also 11.14: 35], should he who is perfectly fixed in his determination by these activities perform My ritual worship [pûjâ] that eradicates the karma.

(12) The figure is remembered in eight different ways: in stone, wood, metal, smearable substances [like clay], being painted, in sand, in jewels and as an image kept in the mind. (13) The individual form thus of two varieties - subject and not subject to change - does, in a temple installed for permanent, o Uddhava, not have to be called forth (âvâdana) or sent away (udvâsa). (14) Temporarily installed is that optional, but assigned a fixed place [as in sand] do these two occur; not of a smearable substance [or of paint or wood] is it washed but in other cases it is cleansed without water. (15) There is My worship of the different forms with excellent paraphernalia and the worship of a devotee free from material desire using whatever that's readily available, as well as certainly the worship in the heart by what was mentally conceived.

(16-18) Customary bathing and decorating is most appreciated for an idol [in the temple], Uddhava, for an altar is that an exercise of respect in mantra's [tattva-vinyâsa] and for the fire are oblations [of sesame, barley etc.] drenched in ghee considered the best. For the sun is that a respectful greeting with a meditation in âsanas [see sûrya-namskar] and for the water are offerings of water and such most dear. If even but some water by My bhakta presented with faith is most dear [to Me, see also B.G. 9: 26], then how much more would foodstuffs, flowers, lamps, fragrances and incense mean; but the many that is being offered by non-devotees will not bring about My satisfaction [see also B.G. 16]. (19) Being clean, having collected the necessary items, with the blades [of kus'a] of the seat that was arranged to the east, and sitting down facing the east or the north, or else directly facing the deity, should he then be of worship [compare 1.19: 17, 4.24: 10, 8.9: 14-15]. (20) Chanting mantra's and assigning them to his own and to My deity body should he with his hand wipe clean [the altar and deity] and properly prepare the sacred pot and vessel for sprinkling the water. (21) With the water of the vessel sprinkling the area of the deity, the utensils and his own body, should he next get ready three vessels with water and arrange the necessary auspicious items available [like flowers, grains, blades of grass, sesame seeds etc., see ***]. (22) The three vessels there with water for His feet [pâdya], His hands [arghya], and His mouth [âcamana] should the worshiper then purify with the mantra's for [respectively] the heart [hridayâya namah], the head [s'îrase svâhâ] and the tuft of hair [s'ikhâyai vashath] as also with the gâyatrî. (23) He should meditate on the Original Individuality of all Expansions, the very subtle transcendental form of Mine that, within his body fully purified by air and fire, is situated on the lotus of the heart and is experienced in the end vibration of the pranava [see also 2.2]. (24) By that from his own realization conceived, meditated form perfectly of worship within the body, that by His presence pervaded got charged, should he carry out the worship in detail inviting Him by [nyâsa] touching His limbs with mantras to establish Him within the deity and all there to it respected. (25-26) One should for the achievement of both [enjoyment and liberation], to both the Vedas and the tantras, together with the items of worship make the offerings of the pâdya, arghya and âcamana water to Me, after having pictured to oneself My seat with the nine s'aktis and the dharma etc. [*4] as an effulgent lotus with eight petals within its whorl saffron filaments. (27) One after the other he should respect the Lord His disc-weapon [the sudars'ana cakra], His conch [the pâñcajanya], His club [the kaumodaki] and His arrows and bow [the s'arnga], His [Balarâma items of the] plow and pestle [hala and mushala], his gem [the kaustubha], His garland [the vaijayantî] and His chest mark curl of white hairs [the s'rîvatsa]. (28) Garuda, Nanda, Sunanda, Pracanda and Canda; Mahâbala and Bala and indeed Kumuda and Kumudekshana [are the names of His His carrier bird and eight associates]. (29) Durgâ, Vinâyaka [Ganes'a], Vyâsa, Vishvaksena [see 6.8: 29, 9.21: 25-26], the spiritual masters, the godly, should each in their own place facing the deity be worshiped with the sprinkling of water and other rituals [*5]. (30-31) Using waters scented with sandalwood, us'îra root, camphor, kunkuma and aguru should the worshiper every day bathe [the deity] as far as his means permit; also he should chant hymns, such as the one from the vedic chapter known as svarna-gharma, the incantation called mahâpurusha, the purusha-sûkta [from the Rig Veda] and songs from the Sâma Veda such as the râjana and such. (32) With clothing, a sacred thread, ornaments, marks of tilaka, garlands and fragrant oils should My devotee with love decorate Me as is enjoined. (33) Pâdya and âcamana water, fragrances and flowers, whole grains, incense, lamps and such items should by the worshiper be presented to Me with faith. (34) To one's means should one arrange for offerings of foodstuffs like candy, sweet rice, ghee rice flour cake [s'ashkulî], sweet cakes [âpûpa], sweet rice flour dumplings with coconut [modaka], spicy sweet wheat cake of ghee and milk [samyâva], yogurt and vegetable soups. (35) Massaging with ointment, cleaning the teeth using a mirror, bathing, food to be chewed and not to be chewed, singing and dancing one should have on special days or else every day. (36) In a sacrificial area set up as prescribed should one, using a girdle, a fire pit and an elevation of sacrifice, by hand build and bring to a blaze a fire equally piled up. (37) Spreading [kus'a grass, mats] and then sprinkling and ceremonially [anvâdhâna] placing wood in the fire according the rules should he, having arranged for the âcamana water, sprinkling the items to offer, meditate on Me as residing in the fire. (38-41) Meditating in worship of Him as being brilliant with a color of molten gold, His conch, disc, club and lotus, His four arms and tranquility; His garment with the color of the filaments of a lotus, shining helmet, bracelets, belt, the ornaments on His arms, the s'rîvatsa on His chest, the effulgent kaustubha and a flower garland; throwing pieces of wood soaked in ghee into the fire and in the course of the arghya ritual making the two offerings of sprinkling ghee [two ways called ârgâharas] and [two different] oblations of ghee [called âjyabhâgas], should the intelligent one offer into the fire with root mantras and the [sixteen lines of the] purusha-sûkta hymn the oblations to Yamarâja and the other demigods called svisthi-krit in due order using a mantra for each [see also 11.14: 36-42, 11.19: 20-24, 11.21: 15]. (42) Thus having been of worship next offering obeisances unto His associates, should he present offerings chanting the basic mantra for the Deity in question, remembering the Absolute Truth as being the Original Self of Nârâyana. (43) Offering the âcamana water and giving the remnants of the food to Vishvaksena, should one then present prepared betel nut and fragrant water for the mouth [see also 11.3: 48-53, 11.25: 28]. (44) He should at times [see kâla, 11.21: 9] become absorbed in the celebration, listening himself and making others listen to My stories, acting out actively the transcendental activities along with loud singing and dancing [see also e.g. 11.5: 36-37, 11.14: 23-24]. (45) With prayers from the purânas, with greater or lesser prayers from other ancient scriptures and prayers written by others [see bhajans], should one prostrating pay homage and say 'O Lord, please show your mercy' and so also pray from direct experience [and other common sources]. (46) Placing one's head at My feet with one's palms brought together [one may pray like:] 'O Lord, please protect this one of surrender afraid of the mouth of death in this material ocean' [compare B.G. 11: 19]. (47) Thus praying should the remnants granted by Me be put to one's head and in case the deity respectfully is to be bidden farewell, should this praying be done once more, so that the light [of the deity] is placed within the light [of one's heart *6].

(48) Whenever one develops faith in Me in whatever deity form or other manifestations should one therein accordingly be of respect since I, the Original Soul of All, am situated within as well all living beings as in oneself [see also B.G. 6: 31 and *7]. (49) This way by the processes of acting in yoga will a person worshiping both in this life and the next to the Veda and other specialized texts, from Me achieve the desired perfection. (50) To properly establish My deity should he build a strong temple, along with beautiful flower gardens reserved [to provide flowers] for daily puja, festivals and yearly occasions. (51) He who donates land, shops, cities and villages in order to assure the continuance of the daily worship and the special occasions, will achieve an opulence equal to Mine. (52) Installing the deity brings sovereignty over the entire earth, building a temple gives rulership over the three worlds and performing puja and other such services delivers one the realm of Brahmâ; with all three will one attain a status equal to Mine. (53) He who free from ulterior motives engages in bhakti-yoga achieves by bhakti-yoga; he who thus is of worship receives Me alone [see also 5.5: 14, 11.12: 24 and B.G. 6: 44]. (54) He who from the godly and the learned takes away the livelihood he gave himself or was given by others, is a stool-eating worm to take birth for a hundred million years [compare 10.64: 39]. (55) The perpetrator [of such theft] and his accomplice as also the prompter and the one approving all share the karmic reaction in the next life in which they according their commitment to that will reap the results.



Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

Dear Vcindiana,
you should be aware that there are hindu scriptures called Agamas.
By http://www.srivaishnavan.com/ans_vedas.html#39

39.The Agamas accept the authority of Vedas. The Agamas prescribe idol worship in the place of rituals like Yagas, mentioned in the Vedas. They prescribed the methods of idol worship.
40.The Agamas are predominantly divided into Saiva, Sakta and Vaishnava Agamas. Agamas mainly talk about construction of temples; the rules for installation and consecration of the deities in the temples; and the methods of performing pujas in the temples.

Now I will quote some chapters from the book Dancing with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Catechism by by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (1927-2001).

By http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-26.html

What Is the Nature of the Holy Agamas?
SLOKA 129

The Agamas, Sanatana Dharma's second authority, are revelations on sacred living, worship, yoga and philosophy. Saivism, Saktism and Vaishnavism each exalts its own array of Agamas, many over 2,000 years old. Aum.

BHASHYA

In the vast Agamic literature, tradition counts 92 main Saiva Agamas--10 Siva, 18 Rudra and 64 Bhairava--77 Sakta Agamas and 108 Vaishnava Pancharatra Agamas. Most Agamas are of four parts, called padas, and possess thousands of metered Sanskrit verses, usually of two lines. The charya pada details daily religious observance, right conduct, the guru-shishya relationship, community life, house design and town planning. The kriya pada, commonly the longest, extols worship and temples in meticulous detail--from site selection, architectural design and iconography, to rules for priests and the intricacies of daily puja, annual festivals and home-shrine devotionals. The yoga pada discloses the interior way of meditation, of raja yoga, mantra and tantra which stimulates the awakening of the slumbering serpent, kundalini. The jnana pada narrates the nature of God, soul and world, and the means for liberation. The Tirumantiram declares, "Veda and Agama are Iraivan's scriptures. Both are truth: one is general, the other specific. While some say these words of God reach two different conclusions, the wise see no difference." Aum Namah Sivaya.

How Are the Agamas Significant Today?
SLOKA 130

While the Vedas, with myriad Deities, bind all Hindus together, the Agamas, with a single supreme God, unify each sect in a oneness of thought, instilling in adherents the joyful arts of divine adoration. Aum Namah Sivaya.

BHASHYA

God is love, and to love God is the pure path prescribed in the Agamas. Veritably, these texts are God's own voice admonishing the samsari, reincarnation's wanderer, to give up love of the transient and adore instead the Immortal. How to love the Divine, when and where, with what mantras and visualizations and at what auspicious times, all this is preserved in the Agamas. The specific doctrines and practices of day-to-day Hinduism are nowhere more fully expounded than in these revelation hymns, delineating everything from daily work routines to astrology and cosmology. So overwhelming is Agamic influence in the lives of most Hindus, particularly in temple liturgy and culture, that it is impossible to ponder modern Sanatana Dharma without these discourses. While many Agamas have been published, most remain inaccessible, protected by families and guilds who are stewards of an intimate hereditary knowledge. The Tirumantiram says, "Nine are the Agamas of yore, in time expanded into twenty-eight, they then took divisions three, into one truth of Vedanta-Siddhanta to accord. That is Suddha Saiva, rare and precious." Aum Namah Sivaya.

Now please read what is said in Karana Agama:

"As the worshipper sees the image of his Deity in stone, clay, wood, or painting, then the God grants light from the Self completely of His own accord. Thus as fire from wood, the moon casts its reflection in the water pot spontaneously."


Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

Now I will quote other agamic verses.
I hope that you already know that Linga is the sacred symbol of Lord Shiva.
http://www.asianart.com/patan-museum/full/linga_f.jpg


For the purpose of protection of all, a Linga is variously caused to be built in villages by Gods, by seers and by ordinary men.Karana Agama 10

Cutting all the stones to be cut, carving all the stones to be carved, boring all the stones to be bored, such are the three aspects of the shilpi's art. The architect and the sutragrahin build the temples and craft the images, but it is with the takshaka that the architect effects the opening of the eyes of these images, and similar rites.Suprabheda Agama 21.28-29.

Having worshiped Nandi in the Southeast -- two-eyed, two-armed, black in color, having the formidable three-pointed trident of Siva, with a crest and twisted locks of hair -- in the Southwest, he should especially worship Mahakala, black in color, two-eyed, two-armed, with white garment, two-legged, having an awesome form, equipped with a noose and a tusk, and endowed with all ornaments.Karana Agama 323-325

He should repeat the Siva mantra according to his ability, and (there should be) circumambulation, obeisance and surrender of the self.Karana Agama 446

Offerings of perfumed substances, flowers, incense, lamps and fresh fruits -- these are the five elements of the traditional puja which culminates with the offering of the lamps.Kamika Agama 4.374

A Linga sprung up by itself and an image in the shape of a God are said to be intended for worship for the purpose of others. The merit to the worshiper of worship for all others is the same as the merit of worship for oneself. The worship rites from the very beginning, worship of the Linga and its support, must be done by an Adishaiva in the manner described in the Agamas.Karana Agama 11

The twice-born gurukal should twice place the triple sectarian marks of ash mixed with water. Having scattered all sins by this twofold protection of his body, the gurukal should now be competent to perform all the sacrificial rites. As fire in a basin flames by means of air, thus Lord Siva is born, is made manifest before the eyes of the devotee, by mantra, in the Linga.Karana Agama 64

In the beginning of worship, at the conclusion of the rite, in the offering of water, in the anointing of the image, in the bathing of the image, in the offering of light, in the sprinkling of the image with sandal, in the bathing of the image with consecrated liquids, in the offering of incense, in the act of worship, and in all other things to be done, the Sivacharya should strike the great bell.Karana Agama 190-191

He should bathe the Linga, repeating the Vyoma-Vyapi Mantra, and with sesame oil, and with curd, milk and ghee, with coconut water, with honey, repeating the Panchabrahman, he should carefully rub the Linga with fine rice-flour paste, repeating the Hridaya Mantra.Karana Agama 274

First there is the invocation; second, the establishing of the God; third, water for washing the feet should be offered; fourth, water for sipping; fifth, the placing of arghya, water; sixth, sprinkling water as ablution; seventh, garment and sandal; eighth, worship with flowers; ninth, incense and light should be offered; tenth, offering of food; eleventh, oblation should be performed; twelfth, the holy fire, an oblation of clarified butter; thirteenth, an oblation; fourteenth, song and music; fifteenth, dancing; and sixteenth, the act of leaving.Karana Agama 423-426

Whatever the merit in any sacrifice, austerity, offering, pilgrimage or place, the merit of worship of the Sivalinga equals that merit multiplied by hundreds of thousands.Karana Agama 9

In the forenoon with a white garment, in midday with a red garment, with a yellow garment in the evening, and with any of them in the night, the worshiper, drawing the God near with the Sadyojata Mantra, should cause Him to be firmly established by means of the Vama Mantra and the Aghora Mantra.Karana Agama 269-270

First there should be purification of one's self; secondly, purification of the site; thirdly, there should be the cleansing of the worship materials, fourthly, purification of the Linga; fifthly, purification of the mantras should be done. Thus there is the five-fold purification.Karana Agama 46

Even the incompetent, indeed, should worship, ending with the offering of sacrificial food, ending with light. He who daily does this shall obtain progress toward the Auspicious.Karana Agama 450

I really hope that the verses I quoted helped you to understand that hindu religion its-self requires "idol" worshipping to his followers.

I think that you will can find very interesting to read three chapters from the book Dancing with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Catechism .
You may wish to read them:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-21.html
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-22.html
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-23.html

Regards,
Orlando.

[orlando]

I will quote something from the book How to Become a Hindu, A Guide for Seekers and Born Hindus by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.

By http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_ch-10.html

Question five: Are Hindus idol worshipers?

A:No, Hindus are not idle worshipers. They worship with great vigor and devotion!

Longer Answer:Seriously, Hindus are not idol worshipers in the sense implied. We Hindus invoke the presence of God, or the Gods, from the higher, unseen worlds, into stone images so that we can experience His divine presence, commune with Him and receive His blessings. But the stone or metal Deity images are not mere symbols of the Gods. They are the form through which their love, power and blessings flood forth into this world. We may liken this mystery to our ability to communicate with others through the telephone. We do not talk to the telephone; rather we use it as a means of communication with another person. Without the telephone, we could not converse across long distances; and without the sanctified icon in the temple we cannot easily commune with the Deity. Divinity can also be invoked and felt in a sacred fire, or in a tree, or in the enlightened person of a satguru. In our temples, God is invoked in the sanctum by highly trained priests. Through the practice of yoga, or meditation, we invoke God inside ourself. Yoga means to yoke oneself to God within. The image or icon of worship is a focus for our prayers and devotions. Another way to explain icon worship is to acknowledge that Hindus believe God is everywhere, in all things, whether stone, wood, creatures or people. So, it is not surprising that they feel comfortable worshiping the divine in His material manifestation. The Hindu can see God in stone and water, air and ether, and inside his own soul.

Explanation:Humorously speaking, Hindus are not idle worshipers. I have never seen a Hindu worship in a lazy or idle way. They worship with great vigor and devotion, with unstinting regularity and constancy. There's nothing idle about our ways of worship! (A little humor never hurts.) But, of course, the question is about "graven images." All religions have their symbols of holiness through which the sacred flows into the mundane. To name a few: the Christian cross, or statues of Mother Mary and Saint Theresa, the holy Kaaba in Mecca, the Sikh Adi Granth enshrined in the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the Arc and Torah of the Jews, the image of a meditating Buddha, the totems of indigenous and Pagan faiths, and the artifacts of the many holy men and women of all religions. Such icons, or graven images, are held in awe by the followers of the respective faiths. The tooth of the Buddha in Sri Lanka's town of Kandy is another loved and respected image. The question is, does this make all such religionists idol-worshipers? The answer is, yes and no. From our perspective, idol worship is an intelligent, mystical practice shared by all of the world's great faiths.

The human mind releases itself from suffering through the use of forms and symbols that awaken reverence, evoke sanctity and spiritual wisdom. Even a fundamentalist Christian who rejects all forms of idol worship, including those of the Catholic and Episcopal churches, would resent someone who showed disrespect for his Bible. This is because he considers it sacred. In Hinduism one of the ultimate attainments is when the seeker transcends the need of all form and symbol. This is the yogi's goal. In this way Hinduism is the least idol-oriented of all the religions of the world. There is no religion that is more aware of the transcendent, timeless, formless, causeless Truth. Nor is there any religion which uses more symbols to represent Truth in preparation for that realization.

Regards,
Orlando.

[satay]

namaste and welcome to the Hindu Dharma Forums.


How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal?

I am a little confused to read your post. Are you suggesting that we 'reduce' all loving powerful God into 'nothingness' ? How do you pray or worship God without the help of an aid? Are you suggesting that we join our Buddhists brothers in their shunyavada where there is 'no' God so to speak?

Budhaam sharnaam Gacchaami!

[Sudarshan]

It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal?

The "all loving powerful God" can be reduced into a single syllable AUM. That is a form of "sound" idolatory. If you have the ability to meditate on this form of God you dont have to reduce God to a metal. Otherwise it is a good idea to have one, lest you might end up as a "void" worshipper.

[sm78]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ?
Because it is a natural way to worship.


It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc.
False. Hindu's don't think they can create Gods. They do worship God through metal, wood rock etc.


How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal?
He doesn't get reduced to a piece of metal, he simple resides there too.
How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal?
How can a God sit away far up in the sky and watch the mess? Is he fit to be a God if he doen't have the patience to sit in a temple and bless his devotees?


People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol?
How can you make God into anything for that matter? How can one make God into a tyrant of the sky who creates and then punishes?

But on the other hand, Hindu's don't make God into a symbol. Symbols are merely a way of making us understand the many mysteries of God.


People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping .
People go crazy on lot of things, like hatred for some means of worship. Some of them spend enormous amount of money to run the political machinery of conversion. Still others run organizations of terror. They believe is God is as narrow as their perverted minds.


Even catholics worship idol Mary! Worshipping just the Cross is equally bad, real christ followers do not do that. There appears onething good in Islam that is not having an idol but its very religiousness that I cannot stand. Care to comment?
The less we speak of these Islam, catholic and such religions when discussing dharma the easier it will be to understand dharma.

[orlando]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol? People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping .

God is everywhere!He is All-pervading!
Please read what is said in Adhyatma Upanishad .
By http://www.advaita.it/library/adhyatma.htm

Om! That (Brahman) is infinite, and this (universe) is infinite. The infinite proceeds from the infinite. (Then) taking the infinitude of the infinite (universe), It remains as the infinite (Brahman) alone.
Om! Let there be Peace in me! Let there be Peace in my environment! Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me!

In the cave of the body is eternally set the one unborn. The earth is His body. (Though) moving within the earth, the earth knows Him not. The eater is His body. (Though) moving within the water, the water knows Him not. The fire is His body. (Though) moving within the fire, the fire knows Him not. The air is His body. (Though) moving within the air, the air knows Him not. The ether is His body. (Though) moving within the ether, the ether knows Him not. The mind is His body. (Though) moving within the mind, the mind knows Him not. The intellect is His body. (Though) moving within the intellect, the intellect knows Him not. The ego is His body. (Though) moving within the ego, the ego knows Him not. The mind-stuff is His body. (Though) moving within the mind-stuff, the mind-stuff knows Him not. The unmanifest is His body. (Though) moving within the unmanifest, the unmanifest knows Him not. The imperishable is His body. (Though) moving within the imperishable, the imperishable knows Him not. The Death is His body. (Though) moving within Death, Death knows Him not. He, then, is the inner-self of all beings, sinless, heaven-born, luminous, the sole Narayana.



Now please read what is said in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.
By http://www.advaita.it/library/brihadaranyaka.htm

III-vii-1: Then Uddalaka, the son of Aruna, asked him. ‘Yajnavalkya’, said, ‘in Madra we lived in the house of Patanchala Kapya (descendant of Kapi), studying the scriptures on sacrifices. His wife was possessed by a Gandharva. We asked him who he was. He said, "Kabandha, the son of Atharvan". He said to Patanchala Kapya and those who studied the scriptures on sacrifices, "Hapya, do you know that Sutra by which this life, the next life and all beings are held together ?" Patanchala Kapya said, "I do not know it, sir". The Gandharva said to him and the students, "Kapya, do you know that Internal Ruler who controls this and the next life and all beings from within ?" Patanchala Kapya said, "I do not know Him, sir". The Gandharva said to him and the students, "He who knows that Sutra and that Internal Ruler as above indeed knows Brahman, knows the worlds, knows the gods, knows the Vedas, knows beings, knows the self, and knows everything". He explained it all to them. I know it. If you, Yajnavalkya, do not know that Sutra and that Internal Ruler, and still take away the cows that belong only to the knowers of Brahman, your head shall fall off’. ‘I know, O Gautama, that Sutra and that Internal Ruler’. ‘Any one can say, "I know, I know". Tell us what you know.’
III-vii-2: He said, ‘Vayu, O Gautama, is that Sutra. Through this Sutra or Vayu this and the next life and all beings are held together. Therefore, O Gautama, when a man dies, they say that his limbs have been loosened, for they are held together, O Gautama, by the Sutra or Vayu.’ ‘Quite so, Yajnavalkya. Now describe the Internal Ruler.’
III-vii-3: He who inhabits the earth, but is within it, whom the earth does not know, whose body is the earth, and who controls the earth from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-4: He who inhabits water, but is within it, whom water does not know, whose body is water, and who controls water from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-5: He who inhabits fire, but is within it, whom fire does not know, whose body is fire, and who controls fire from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-6: He who inhabits the sky, but is within it, whom the sky does not know, whose body is the sky, and who controls the sky from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-7: He who inhabits air, but is within it, whom air does not know, whose body is air, and who controls air from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-8: He who inhabits heaven, but is within it, whom heaven does not know, whose body is heaven, and who controls heaven from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-9: He who inhabits the sun, but is within it, whom the sun does not know, whose body is the sun, and who controls the sun from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-10: He who inhabits the quarters, but is within it, whom the quarters does not know, whose body is the quarters, and who controls the quarters from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-11: He who inhabits the moon and stars, but is within it, whom the moon and stars does not know, whose body is the moon and stars, and who controls the moon and stars from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-12: He who inhabits the ether, but is within it, whom the ether does not know, whose body is the ether, and who controls the ether from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-13: He who inhabits darkness, but is within it, whom darkness does not know, whose body is darkness, and who controls darkness from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-14: He who inhabits light, but is within it, whom light does not know, whose body is light, and who controls light from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self. This much with reference to the gods. Now with reference to the beings.
III-vii-15: He who inhabits all beings, but is within it, whom no being knows, whose body is all beings, and who controls all beings from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self. This much with reference to the beings. Now with reference to the body.
III-vii-16: He who inhabits the nose, but is within it, whom the nose does not know, whose body is the nose, and who controls the nose from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-17: He who inhabits the organ of speech, but is within it, whom the organ of speech does not know, whose body is the organ of speech, and who controls the organ of speech from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-18: He who inhabits the eye, but is within it, whom the eye does not know, whose body is the eye, and who controls the eye from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-19: He who inhabits the ear, but is within it, whom the ear does not know, whose body is the ear, and who controls the ear from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-20: He who inhabits the mind (Manas), but is within it, whom the mind does not know, whose body is the mind, and who controls the mind from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-21: He who inhabits the skin, but is within it, whom the skin does not know, whose body is the skin, and who controls the skin from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-22: He who inhabits the intellect, but is within it, whom the intellect does not know, whose body is the intellect, and who controls the intellect from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.
III-vii-23: He who inhabits the organ of generation, but is within it, whom the organ of generation does not know, whose body is the organ of generation, and who controls the organ of generation from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self. He is never seen, but is the Witness; He is never heard, but is the Hearer; He is never thought, but is the Thinker; He is never known, but is the Knower. There is no other witness but Him, no other hearer but Him, no other thinker but Him, no other knower but Him. He is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self. Everything else but Him is mortal.’ Thereupon Uddalaka, the son of Aruna, kept silent.

Such upanishadic verses show that God is really all-pervading and He is everywhere.
If God is everywhere(and in fact He is everywhere!) why should not He be even inside a statue or a symbol????

Regards,
Orlando.

[satay]

If God is everywhere(and in fact He is everywhere!) why should not He be even inside a statue or a symbol????

Regards,
Orlando.

Good analysis Orlando!

[Shriyash21]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ?
Why not?
This question frequently occurs to the people who look at 'idol worship' from afar.
They first want a logical explaination of worship.
A lot of 'why' type of questions.
Only if it passes their intellectual scrutiny , will they 'accept' it.
Otherwise, it is to them an activity that dosent make much sense logically.
Perfectly alright.
I have nothing against asking questions.
Unfortunately, their whole lives they live in this question mark, they want an explaination first, then they will go to the temple.
Why?Beause the answers are too 'simplistic'!!
It cant be that obvious! No, things cant be so simple?
Just open up your heart, and God will respond to you?
Nah, it cant be.
If it was true, they why arent many more people comming out and saying it?
Maybe worshippers are just delusional.
Maybeis all just a mass hypnosis.
Does God really exist or not?
It is not that there isint an explaination of the significance of worship.....there is a lot of literature out there thats will say yes, for so and so reasons, worship is tremendously important on the path of Bhakti.
But of course, reading about it one thing, but how to transmit the feeling, the emotion thru words?
How indeed, just reading about food will not make your hunger go away.

Going to a temple, if you dont believe that God exists, will obviously be like trying to lie to yourself.
You are not sure, maybe He exists, maybe not.
And we have a lot of 'why this custom' and 'why that'.........
And we cant be so constrained, we live in the 21st century, science is supreme, why hasnt science been able to proove that God exists anyway?
"Therefore, it must be all a big lie."
"Whew, and for a moment i thought of actually visiting a temple and seeing for myself what the fuss is all about!
Glad i know the answer now."

[hindweb]

Hinduism does not promote idol worship. To the contrary, Hinduism urges us to transcend all physical aids to worship, in our spiritual progress. Realizing that it is impossible for the mortal human to visualize the Infinite and instead of sustaining false hopes of such achievements, the religion urges us to slowly and steadily continue our progress in pursuit of the Truth. For such steady progess, the religion asks us to start with physical aids such as temples and idols, and through practice and devotion, ultimately succeed in visualizing God without the aid of temples and idols.

[NandiniBhakti]

The "all loving powerful God" can be reduced into a single syllable AUM. That is a form of "sound" idolatory. If you have the ability to meditate on this form of God you dont have to reduce God to a metal. Otherwise it is a good idea to have one, lest you might end up as a "void" worshipper.

I agree!

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste ,
I never considered worshiping the idol, or stone, or metal. I 'see' the symbol of the Divine. When we think that the Divine is pure Spirit, for some having somethng to see in the beginning is helpful. Just as one views their national flag, over time its the symbol of the values of their nation, so one no longer sees cloth.

There are techniques that allow one to think and meditate on the Supreme. One can start gradually, then cognize the Fullness of the Divine.
Yet we start simple.

[qwert]

Read more about why hindus use murtis and idols here: http://www.gitananda.org/faq/why-do-we-pray-to-murtis-or-statues.html

The answer is remarkably simple and universal.

[vcindiana]

Thank u for your offer to write you directly.

Truth is something I constantly try to explore. You seem to be well read in Hindu stuffs. You quote 'Such upanishadic verses show that God is really all-pervading and He is everywhere If God is everywhere(and in fact He is everywhere!) why should not He be even inside a statue or a symbol????"

This stuff I do not understand. Why is this God has to sit in a statue or symbol? You say He is every where, have you really seen Him? What does he do sitting behind the scene? How come he also has gender classification? Mother God, Father God, Baby God? Elephant faced? Lion faced? Rama the real God killed Ravana the evil guy. According to you God had to be in Ravana too. So God killed God Right? People worship phallus or yoni, which are sex organs and at the same time Hindus do not want to talk sex things. They are reluctant to talk about sex to their own kids.
How do you define God? If He is in the air water, fire wind etc... Then it is OK we human need these for our survival. But the same wind becomes a storm and kills people. Floods routinely kill people in India. Tsunami killed scores of people? Where was your God?
Please do not give me your Karma Philosophy which is out right wrong if you consider God as the most loving.

It is my thinking that the original purpose of RELIGION (in Greek Ligament) was to bring people together to share our life's pains and pleasures. But we have created God in our imagination and by idolizing we have reduced God into a being. You may ask what is wrong with that. The conflict we have in this world is all because how differently we see God and in that very process we have created so many non sensical castes and creeds. I can go on......

My position on God. He is just Love, It is the awesome experience. Love is more than Life...

[satay]

namaste,
I was enjoying your post until I read the following lines where you contradicted yourself!


My position on God. He is just Love, It is the awesome experience. Love is more than Life...[/SIZE][/FONT]

If God is love...why is he/she/it is killing people by flooding then? Where is the 'Love' in killing thousands by flooding their lungs with water?

When you say, "It is the awesome experience", what experience are you talking about, is it the experience of seeing deadbodies floating in Tsunami?

What does mean by 'Love is more than Life'?

[saidevo]

Namaste vcindiana.


Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol? People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping . Even catholics worship idol Mary! Worshipping just the Cross is equally bad, real christ followers do not do that. There appears onething good in Islam that is not having an idol but its very religiousness that I cannot stand. Care to comment?

Why do people have to read books when knowledge is all around us and can be known by just speaking and listening? It appears Man has created knowledge made out of paper, glass, plastic, etc. How can one reduce the omnipresent Knowledge into a collection of papers or an array of electronic devices made of plastic, metal and glass? How can Knowledge sit inside them like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is a symbol, a mean to access and get Knowledge, but is that symbol all that is to Knowledge? People go crazy about books, create them glitzy (wasting natural resources), pour ridiculous money on posher books, posher and faster electronic devices, and also create politics about using them. Even Hindus use books and plastic electronic devices to get Knowledge! If the God of Islam is not represented by idols or icons or images, why print Quran on paper and store it on the Net? Care to understand?

[saidevo]

Namaste vcindiana.



This stuff I do not understand. Why is this God has to sit in a statue or symbol?


Convenience. Our convenience to get at Him. Just like you store water in an overhead tank and get at it wherever you want in your home. If you cannot go the river bank and bring water, or draw water from your open well you resort to simple storage and access devices. If you cannot get at God with your mind in meditation, you naturally need a symbol, a tool, an icon to get at Him. Water is everywhere on the earth in the form of moisture and humidity and its own natural form in the oceans and rivers; it is not reduced but only channelized to a storage tank and access tap. It is the same case with God.



You say He is every where, have you really seen Him? What does he do sitting behind the scene?


Why do you have to 'see' God to get at Him or know about Him? Because everything is ultimately visual, light. When I close my eyes, the world turns dark, I stay without a clue, and I try to visualize and see something that comforts me. When I open my eyes and think about God, I don't find Him either, so I try to 'see' Him in an icon. I believe the wise who have 'seen' God, in the same way I believe a scientist who has 'seen' things in his experiments and proclaims that knowledge for public use. If I become a scientist I can 'see' things too the way he sees them; if I become wise I can 'see' God too.

A scientist would never know the why of what he sees and finds, within his own means; he knows only the how of things. Everything that goes on here in the universe is what God does. What one cannot sufficiently know is the why of His actions.



How come he also has gender classification? Mother God, Father God, Baby God? Elephant faced? Lion faced?


A parent often switches roles for the sake of his/her child. There is a saying that a 'fond father is a fond father', but fathers are fond of their children, though fondness is usually a mother's quality. The gender classification is a must in manifestation in this universe because most things in manifestation become bi-polar. So Father God is consciousness and knowledge, Mother God is His power and energy.

But why a Baby God who is a male or female? Why a God has to be Elephant-faced or Lion-faced?

The answer is, if God is just Love and loves me dearly, I can also love Him within the means available to me! He knows me in-and-out but I don't know because I am just a child! So I make him my teddy bear, my Ganesha, my Hanuman, carry him all around and love him. A child may discard its teddy bear quickly as it grows, but that kind of growth is not just possible for me in spirituality!



Rama the real God killed Ravana the evil guy. According to you God had to be in Ravana too. So God killed God Right?


What are good and evil? What does killing involve? Why should people need to die, why can't the great scientists give an eternal life to humans whose bodies they know in and out?

Yes, God was in both Rama and Ravana; God Rama killed God Ravana, that's right, and what is odd or wrong about it? God Ravana did not know his real identity, though he was the son of a sage; he was so obsessed with worldly pleasures that he wouldn't know that he was God too until he died! So God had to take the avatar as Rama and finish him off.



People worship phallus or yoni, which are sex organs and at the same time Hindus do not want to talk sex things. They are reluctant to talk about sex to their own kids.


Sex organs are the channels of procreation at the physical level. They are symbols of creative power at the metaphysical level. I can create children for me in my mind and dreams without these organs, but for physical manifestation of my children they are needed. Actually, they are needed only for that: creation of progeny; not for carnal gratification. The carnal gratification and stimulus is only an aid to make couples love each other for the real purpose of such love. This is the standpoint of Hinduism on sex.

Sex was not a taboo among Hindus until the time of the Islamic invasion and the British rule of India. The dress codes of both male and female Hindus prior to these periods were simple and revealing yet caused no carnal desires on the onlooker. The trousers and skirts are the Victorian means of restriction and concealment, because the Bible taught that sex was a sin. The rule of the people of Abrahamic faiths have destroyed the Hindu values and corrupted the people by the western culture. Therein lies the reason for the hesitation and embarrassment of today's Hindus to talk about sex to their children. This is a wide subject that can be discussed at length, though I am not adept at it.

But why worship the phallus or yoni?

God created Adam and Eve, knowing fully well that they will fall from the Garden of Eden (otherwise he can't be God). Fall they did and came to earth to create their progeny. And the Son of God came along, centuries later, to teach them in his Bible that humans were sinful, women were subordinate and sex is taboo! Yet Christians are the largest in numbers and Christianity is the largest religion in the world today. Why? Why should humans be continually disobeying God, seeking carnal pleasures and producing offsprings, remaining sinners all along? The only answer is that for humans, the urge to procreate is supreme and is the only satisfying physical means of love.

Hinduism went a step ahead and boldly declared eons before the Abrahamic faiths came along that procreation is not a sinful act and that humans are not sinners. In Hinduism, garbha dana (offering the womb) is the first sacrament of human life. It involves the holy communion of a rightfully wedded dampati (husband-wife).

When Brahma created the universe, he created the Sanat Kumaras out of his mind and asked them to go to places and create their progeny. This was because the progeny had to accommodate the human souls waiting on their wings for suitable rebirths. The Sanat Kumaras, being more inclined towards asceticism than family life, refused to obey their Father, so Brahma had to divide himself into male and female aspects and become the Svayambhuva Manu and his wife Satarupa. Since then the human creation multiplied by sexual intercourse.

Suppose the entire humanity, like the Sanat Kumaras, refuse to create their progeny (which will surely be the case when men live only with men and women with women, as is the trend in the Western Culture today). What will happen? There will only be death of humans with no further births: and the sufferers will be the souls waiting for rebirth. Therefore, creation of progeny is a holy act and the symbols of phallus and yoni are fit objects of reverence; worshipping them only indicates a lofty state of mind. This is the reason we Hindus worship our Trinity with their consorts: Brahma-Sarasvati, Vishnu-Lakshmi, Shiva-Parvati. It is the Shiva-Parvati couple who deal with the regeneration of souls and hence they are worshipped in the form of Lingam and Yoni.



How do you define God? If He is in the air water, fire wind etc... Then it is OK we human need these for our survival. But the same wind becomes a storm and kills people. Floods routinely kill people in India. Tsunami killed scores of people? Where was your God?

Please do not give me your Karma Philosophy which is out right wrong if you consider God as the most loving.


If there are no storms, tsunamis or other natural calamities, and if the span of human life increases with the advancement of medical science (and cloning), the end of the world which the Bible and other religious scriptures predict will never come to pass. Suppose human life is well advanced into a hundred years or more, ultimately every human being would be an old man or woman, unable to procreate further!

And yes, it is the Law of Karma (which is not just philosophy) that plays a vital part in what we see happening in the world today. God's love is not confined to just keeping humans in physical form, which is why he allows the karma to have its say.



It is my thinking that the original purpose of RELIGION (in Greek Ligament) was to bring people together to share our life's pains and pleasures. But we have created God in our imagination and by idolizing we have reduced God into a being. You may ask what is wrong with that. The conflict we have in this world is all because how differently we see God and in that very process we have created so many non sensical castes and creeds. I can go on......


Your thoughts seem muddled here. If there are no religions, there would have been no science and humans would have still been cave people.

Religions are many because the people and their cultures are many. Among God's creations of life on earth, only man has the freewill. If there are no religions to channelize that freewill, humanity would have been in greater chaos and perhaps be extinct long back. The conflict we have is not due to seeing God in many forms, but asserting one form as superior to another and fighting over it.



My position on God. He is just Love, It is the awesome experience. Love is more than Life..


Hinduism teaches that man is God-inherent, so all humans are the same. There may be castes and creeds and sects among Hindus but they don't fight among themselves and try to convert one group to another as with the case of Christianity or the violent fights among the Islamic sects. This is the reason Hinduism is known as Sanatana Dharma.

Experience is the key word. One who has an experience of God, even in his thoughts (rather than in actual realization), would know and understand and love.

[Agnideva]

Namaste VCIndiana,

Some interesting and pertinent questions.


Why is this God has to sit in a statue or symbol?
Why not?!? Hinduism begins and ends in the belief that the Divine is immanent in creation. Given that belief, God doesn’t have to come and “sit” in the statue or symbol, His presence is there in that sculpted image already. God’s presence is especially invoked through the sanctified image (murti). God’s presence is neither limited by the image, nor are we told to see God only as or in the images.


You say He is every where, have you really seen Him? If God is not everywhere simultaneously, and is limited to some sort of heaven, then that being is not truly God, but some sort of a lesser being. Any being that is limited in any which way, and is not all-pervasive is not God.


What does he do sitting behind the scene? This is not a Hindu belief. God does not sit behind the scenes, but is immanent in every scene. There is no separation here.


How come he also has gender classification? Mother God, Father God, Baby God? Elephant faced? Lion faced? God comes with gender classification if that is what your mind needs. In our every day experiences we have fathers, mothers, babies, animals, etc. We should be able to relate to the Divine through each of these forms, so all sorts of anthropomorphic and zoomorphic images have been utilized to relate to God.


Tsunami killed scores of people? Where was your God? Please do not give me your Karma Philosophy which is out right wrong if you consider God as the most loving.
My position on God. He is just Love Please remember that the 2004 tsunami killed people from different religions, not just Hindus. There were Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Christians who all died in the tsunami. We could also ask where were the Buddhist Gods (since there is no ultimate God in Buddhism), where was the Muslim God, where was the Christian God?

In essence we have two choices – either belief in karma theory (as Hindu and Buddhists do) or belief that God does everything. If you don’t want a karmic explanation, then you are left with God doing everything, so God caused the tsunami and is directly responsible for the deaths of 200000+ people in Asia. This raises the following questions in my mind: (a) With a God so cruel, who needs Satan? And (b) can such a God really be called "just love", since love cannot result in mass killing or vengeance on the part of a God. Even if you believe that God did not cause the tsunami, then also He cannot be called just love, as His love did not come through, and He did not avert the disaster.


The conflict we have in this world is all because how differently we see God and in that very process we have created so many non sensical castes and creeds. I can go on...... The religious conflicts we have in this world are mostly due to human selfishness, and the very human belief that ours is the true and only way. Even if the world was homogenous in religious belief, there would still be conflicts in this world because human selfishness knows no bounds.

OM Shanti,
A.

[sm78]

He is just Love, It is the awesome experience. Love is more than Life...

I know for myself smoking pot is quite an awesome experience ...

[bUrIaL]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol? People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping . Even catholics worship idol Mary! Worshipping just the Cross is equally bad, real christ followers do not do that. There appears onething good in Islam that is not having an idol but its very religiousness that I cannot stand. Care to comment?

i think ur only purpose here is to bash hindus and muslims alike.....not to assume ur a bad person but thats a pretty bold way of asking a question for someone with only 6 posts *shruggs*

[vcindiana]

I know for myself smoking pot is quite an awesome experience ...

That is quiet interesting, I never tried Pot. I do not think I want to try Pot at this stage of my life as I try to become more conscious.

Let me take back my quote about this LOVE thing. Let me start out with a question How a Hindu thinks about God? What does God represent? These days we almost fool nature. Why do we need this God thing? I you think God is some super natural person why we need to idolize him or her?

[vcindiana]

i think ur only purpose here is to bash hindus and muslims alike.....not to assume ur a bad person but thats a pretty bold way of asking a question for someone with only 6 posts *shruggs*

My purpose is to find Truth. Religions cannot escape not answering ordinary persons questions. I hope there is no secret agenda. If religions cannot politely answer, these have no place in the modern world. Let us put all religions under a microscope and try to find some truth.

[vcindiana]

Namaste vcindiana.



Why do people have to read books when knowledge is all around us and can be known by just speaking and listening? It appears Man has created knowledge made out of paper, glass, plastic, etc. How can one reduce the omnipresent Knowledge into a collection of papers or an array of electronic devices made of plastic, metal and glass? How can Knowledge sit inside them like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is a symbol, a mean to access and get Knowledge, but is that symbol all that is to Knowledge? People go crazy about books, create them glitzy (wasting natural resources), pour ridiculous money on posher books, posher and faster electronic devices, and also create politics about using them. Even Hindus use books and plastic electronic devices to get Knowledge! If the God of Islam is not represented by idols or icons or images, why print Quran on paper and store it on the Net? Care to understand?

You may disagree with me, I do not equate God with Knowledge. When I define God as Love I do not go seeking for some intellectual knowledge. Knowledge requires a media and an analytical mind. God is something I experience mostly with people around me.

[vcindiana]

namaste,
I was enjoying your post until I read the following lines where you contradicted yourself!



If God is love...why is he/she/it is killing people by flooding then? Where is the 'Love' in killing thousands by flooding their lungs with water?

When you say, "It is the awesome experience", what experience are you talking about, is it the experience of seeing deadbodies floating in Tsunami?

What does mean by 'Love is more than Life'?
******************************************
Yes, it is indeed contradicting if you look at it from your point of view.
Life has to end in death!! But the act of Love is enduring and everlasting. There is no rationality in the Love and there is no justice. Does this make any human sense? I suppose it does make God's sense. I am sure you will say this is ridiculous. But this is how I see God. He is not some nature thing,definitely not an idol thing sitting in a Temple or a Church. He has no power to stop Tsunami but in the act of Love He motivates people like us to come together in these tragic events and help and encourage each other. In that very emotional loving experience I see God. Imagine God were to have power to stop Tsunami we would not have any motivation, minding our own things and not knowing any thing about Love. Love is the only thing that stirs hearts of people. God is all about Love, that is Amazing.

God bless you.

[atanu]

******************************************
--But the act of Love is enduring and everlasting.




It lasts about 5 minutes.



******************************************
---- He has no power to stop Tsunami but in the act of Love He motivates people like us to come together in these tragic events and help and encourage each other. In that very emotional loving experience I see God. Imagine God were to have power to stop Tsunami we would not have any motivation, minding our own things and not knowing any thing about Love. Love is the only thing that stirs hearts of people. God is all about Love, that is Amazing.

God bless you.


So, your God is not omnipotent. That is a fresh perspective no doubt. The problem you know? Some who are so full of love see faults only with others and they continually bless others. Is this love?


Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

You may disagree with me, I do not equate God with Knowledge. When I define God as Love I do not go seeking for some intellectual knowledge. Knowledge requires a media and an analytical mind. God is something I experience mostly with people around me.


Like George Bush has transformed the english word terrorism to Terror.

The knowledge you are talking about is "Knowing". The knowledge that we talk about is that eternal principle by which "knowing" takes place. If you contemplated even for a moment: where from this intelligence in me? Oh, stupendous, like smoking pot. eh eh.


If you contemplated even for a moment: where from this intelligence that perceives this love feeling? Oh, stupendous, like smoking pot. eh eh.


Om Namah Shivaya

[sm78]

Let me take back my quote about this LOVE thing.
Thank you.


Let me start out with a question How a Hindu thinks about God?
Each Hindu think a little differently from others about God. For a good introduction you may read this excellent article :-

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2003/10-12/44-49_four_sects.shtml



What does God represent? These days we almost fool nature. Why do we need this God thing?

For me God represents all that is known and all that is not. All that I think I am and all that I think I am not. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you ~ in which case why bother ?

Whether we are actually fooling nature or ourselves is yet to be seen.

If you think computers have solved all your puzzles about life, maybe you don't need a God ~ for now at least.


I you think God is some super natural person why we need to idolize him or her?

If "idolization" as u see and understand it doesn't make sense to you, we (people on this forum) have heard you.

[Arvind Sivaraman]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol? People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping . Even catholics worship idol Mary! Worshipping just the Cross is equally bad, real christ followers do not do that. There appears onething good in Islam that is not having an idol but its very religiousness that I cannot stand. Care to comment?

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste.
1)The highest form of worship is without form.
2)People who are not matured enough to comprehend the fact that GOD is without form and is within oneself, he/she takes to idol worship.
That is why,GOD has taken innumerable Avathar's.Some Avathar's are in Human form and some are in Animal form and in one case it is a combimation of both.ie;Narasimha Avathar.
3)The Bhagawath Puran says that it is not enough to worship GOD in temple.One needs to feed the Hungry,Provide Dress to the Poor,Provide Shelter to the Homeless.This is real service.GOD is pleased by these acts.
4)The essence of all religion is one.All GOD is one.Taking the name of Sri Rama,Sri Krishna,Jesus,Allah all will lead to the ONE ALMIGHTY.
But changing your Father (Namely your religion) is not advisable.

[sm78]

4)The essence of all religion is one.All GOD is one.Taking the name of Sri Rama,Sri Krishna,Jesus,Allah all will lead to the ONE ALMIGHTY.

Please don't spread this lie of universalism anymore...religions like all other human ideologies are different and stem from different centers of consciousness.

God may be one...religions are not. Its as ridiculous as saying all people think and act alike.

I don't into get into another lengthy argument on this topic, but surely we can be more truthful to facts. This universalism has only harmed the society until now, no good can come out of lies and wrong informations.

[bUrIaL]

My purpose is to find Truth. Religions cannot escape not answering ordinary persons questions. I hope there is no secret agenda. If religions cannot politely answer, these have no place in the modern world. Let us put all religions under a microscope and try to find some truth.

well sayd

[satay]

Namaskar,



Life has to end in death!!


You say this, yet you contradict yourself in the next line of your post! First, Life does not end in death. If the act of love is ‘everlasting’, life can not end in death! My point of view, understanding and experience is that life continues into what we call death i.e. end of material existence.



But the act of Love is enduring and everlasting. There is no rationality in the Love and there is no justice. Does this make any human sense?


I don’t understand in what context you are using this sentence. What is meant by ‘love is enduring and everlasting and there is no justice’?

Abrahamic religions depict GOD as some sort of aristocratic judge who keep punishing mankind for the sins of his first son simply because he has this need to show ‘love’. You are right, it doesn’t make any human sense. First create a son to fulfill your desire, then instruct him not eat from tree of knowledge all the while knowing that the son will disobey (otherwise GOD can not be omnipotent), then when the son listens to his wife instead and disobeys, not only condemn him and his wife to earth but also condemn his generations to come. Then keep the soul factory running instead of just shutting the whole operation down. Any human with a bit of common sense would take care of the problem at its very source i.e. stop making new souls.

First condemning and then trying to save humanity does not make sense to a simple-minded human being like me. To me, this is not ‘love’ this is stupidity. Wouldn’t you agree?




But this is how I see God. He is not some nature thing,definitely not an idol thing sitting in a Temple or a Church.


Hmm…okay. Now that you told us what GOD is not, pls share with us what GOD actually is. Where is he, how can I verify his existence in your view and method?



He has no power to stop Tsunami but in the act of Love He motivates people like us to come together in these tragic events and help and encourage each other.


In your view, GOD has some deficiencies. Is this correct? Not sure, how exactly GOD is motivating people to come together. Also, surely there are people that do not believe in GOD but help in tragic events. Is God motivating them also? Why?



In that very emotional loving experience I see God. Imagine God were to have power to stop Tsunami we would not have any motivation, minding our own things and not knowing any thing about Love. Love is the only thing that stirs hearts of people. God is all about Love, that is Amazing.


Are you sure you are not hallucinating?

First, you are implying that GOD lacks power.

And second, why murder thousands just to instill this motivation to show love? Do we really need a thousand bodies floating in sea, to come together? There are simpler ways…don’t you think?





God bless you.

Are you sure, in your view, GOD is competent enough and has the power to bless me? What do I need the blessing for exactly? How does this 'blessing' help me in my day to day life? What's the practical use of this blessing?

any clues?

[vcindiana]

[quote=satay;13343]Namaskar,
You say this, yet you contradict yourself in the next line of your post! First, Life does not end in death. If the act of love is ‘everlasting’, life can not end in death! My point of view, understanding and experience is that life continues into what we call death i.e. end of material existence.



Life and Love are separate. Life does end in death. I do not know about your theological word “material existence”. I do not know what happens after I die. I am not interested in knowing Heaven and Hell etc; I do not think any one came back to earth to tell us the experience these things. The act of Love is enduring and everlasting. Act of love is sacrifice and it touches hearts, does move fellow human being. It encourages and brings strength and courage despite the hardship in our life. It is contagious. You touch one human being’s heart and he or she will touch another heart.
I define God as the infinite form of Love; it is not about justice, not about power, not about just mercy, not about an authority, not some magic or trick.
God bless you.

[vcindiana]

[quote=satay

Abrahamic religions depict GOD as some sort of aristocratic judge who keep punishing mankind for the sins of his first son simply because he has this need to show ‘love’. You are right, it doesn’t make any human sense. First create a son to fulfill your desire, then instruct him not eat from tree of knowledge all the while knowing that the son will disobey (otherwise GOD can not be omnipotent), then when the son listens to his wife instead and disobeys, not only condemn him and his wife to earth but also condemn his generations to come. Then keep the soul factory running instead of just shutting the whole operation down. Any human with a bit of common sense would take care of the problem at its very source i.e. stop making new souls.

First condemning and then trying to save humanity does not make sense to a simple-minded human being like me. To me, this is not ‘love’ this is stupidity. Wouldn’t you agree?


For a human mind like ME and rest of us it sounds stupid. Bible like Koran and Geeta was written by people. Partly it is History, partly it is their way of understanding God. I find lot of huge metaphors in these stories.
I do not believe the story of the Garden of Eden is as simple as about the origin of sin and the so called “fall” after that. Christianity makes the sin as the central issue and the whole humanity is condemned just because Eve and Adam were tempted to eat a juicy apple. But I dwelled deeply into this.
The fruit that came out of the tree was a mixture of knowledge of Good and evil. There was no separate tree, one for Good and one for Evil.
As you mentioned God is omnipotent, He knows every thing. How can all knowing God thought Adam and Eve would listen to Him and not eat that fruit? I bet He knew they would eat. we humans get easily tempted. So what is the purpose of tricking Adam and Eve? As I find in the Bible the first thing that happened to Adam and Eve is opening of their eyes. They became SELF CONSCIOUS. (On the lighter side it was the great moment in the history about the discovery of underwear!). They now know both Good and evil. They have free will. They have full freedom. But they are also conscious. This is what I call freedom of consciousness. This is the very necessity to understand the meaning of Love. Where there is no full freedom there is no understanding of Love. Let us look at the other side, what if Adam and Eve had obeyed God and did not eat that forbidden apple. We would have remained blind. We could have stayed in the paradise but we would never have understood Love. God knew every thing and His priority was/is Love. This story, of course is a myth but very true and powerful and make me understand the nature of God which is nothing but Love.
Growing up is walking in the desert east of Garden of Eden and it is difficult. I love to drink Martini and try to forget this world. But the reality is walking is the process of becoming heightened in our CONCIOUSNESS in which we discover the amazing LOVE.

You do not have to agree with me.

God bless you.

[satay]

namaste vcindiana,

Thank you for the post and sharing your interpretation of the original sin story. However, it doesn't make sense to me, I have tried to understand it from many different points of view. I simply don't get the moral of the story. Every interpretation of the story makes GOD look like a tyrant, which by the way is in line with the original understanding of GOD by Jewish people.

As a Hindu, I can not conceive of a GOD who is tyrant! This 'expressing the Love' thing is a new spin by the church to market the tyrant GOD of tradition in a different way. I don't see any love coming out the bible God. Let me see, if I can present my thoughts coherently...

I fail to understand the ‘fault’ of Adam. To me, disobedient is implied in ‘free will’!!

Let me take an example to help clarify. Let’s suppose that you and I create a robot and program it to follow our basic commands like fetch, stop, go etc. If the robot doesn’t follow our commands, we will know right away that there is something wrong with the programming. In that case, we will keep changing the programming until it follows our commands successfully. Robot following our commands correctly is a signal that our programming was successful. Therefore, we keep improving the programming until the robot perfects the execution of commands. Okay? Our expectation and success milestone is robot following our commands perfectly.

Now, let’s say that we add another ingredient in the programming of robot. Let’s say, we give it ‘free will’. What do I mean by ‘free will’? We allow the robot to use its own circuitry to make a judgment call on its programming routines. That is, any time, it receives a command from us, it has two options, 1) follow command 2) don’t follow command. By programming the robot this way, our expectation and understanding is that there will some instances where robot will not follow commands. In fact, if the robot followed commands 100% of the time after programming the free will option, we would know that there is something wrong. That means that we are at least expecting it to not follow our command at least once, that would be the signal that our programming was correct.

Do you see what I mean here? By programming the robot, we have implied disobedience, in fact, disobedience signals that the free will option is working nicely as intended!

Now, many people try to make me understand that GOD made adam to show and share his Love. He gave him freewill and wanted adam to use it but in truth he really wanted adam to choose to obey him using his free will. This to my simple-minded brain doesn’t make any sense.

Let’s say that when we were building the robot with the free will option that you came to me and said, “satay, we will build the robot with free will but the robot should really follow our command 100% of the time using this free will option otherwise we are going to trash it.” I would just say that then why program it with ‘free will’ to begin with? By giving free will we are giving the option of choosing. If we want it always choose only one option i.e. follow our command, then why program the other option? And more importantly, why ‘trash’ the robot for choosing option 2 i.e. the instance in which it doesn’t follow our command. The logic here simply makes no sense!

To me Adam’s disobedience is child like! His disobedience indicates that a child is ready to become a man, that the child is in fact, growing as he should be. The GOD of Judaic system and thus Christianity fails to understand this child like behaviour and condemns not only Adam and eve but all of their generations and separates them from the divine for eternity. Then one day, perhaps millions of years later, sends his second son, gets him murdered in the name of ‘saving humanity’!

Let’s see some example of this ‘love and peace’ that you think the biblical god is trying to express so badly by condemning humanity for eternity for ‘child like disobedience of his first son.’

In the new testament, the biblical god declares that he comes not for peace but a sword.

Matthew 10.34-35

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Biblical God kills all first born babies!

Exodus, 12.29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle?

Biblical God got the jews swallowed alive by the earth!

Numbers 16.32-33
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them (the Jews) up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

They (the Jews), and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them ; and they perished from among the congregation.

Biblical God kills 70,000 Jews by pestilence

Chronicles 21.14
So the Lord sent pestilence upon Israel; and them fell of Israel seventy thousand men.

Biblical GOD kills 50,070 men for looking into his box!

Samuel, 6.19
And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark (box) of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men ; and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.

And the list goes on…

Let’s see what others have said,

Colin Maine, the renowned Welsh writer states:

If we examine the Bible-both Old and New Testaments-we find that the Bible god is more of a sadistic monster than a god of love. If he were to appear on earth as a human being, he would most likely be incarcerated in a mental hospital as a dangerous psychopath.

James Anthony Foude opines:

I will not, I must not believe that the all just, all merciful, all good (Christian) God can be such a Being as I find Him there (in the Bible) described.

I fail to understand the logic of punishing humanity simply because GOD has this need to show his ‘Love’!

[bUrIaL]

this cud get ugly

[satay]

this cud get ugly


oh no, not at all. Just discussing. Like vcindiana said, we should put all religions under the microscope. I am in the process of doing so with christianity since it claims to hold the only key for the truth...

[vcindiana]

namaste vcindiana,

Thank you for the post and sharing your interpretation of the original sin story. However, it doesn't make sense to me; I have tried to understand it from many different points of view. I simply don't get the moral of the story. Every interpretation of the story makes GOD look like a tyrant, which by the way is in line with the original understanding of GOD by Jewish people.

As a Hindu, I can not conceive of a GOD who is tyrant! This 'expressing the Love' thing is a new spin by the church to market the tyrant GOD of tradition in a different way. I don't see any love coming out the bible God. Let me see, if I can present my thoughts coherently.......................................................................................... ..................

................I fail to understand the logic of punishing humanity simply because GOD has this need to show his ‘Love’!
******************************************************
I like your way of trying to dissect the religious truths. I am not any religious expert, but an ordinary guy who likes to explore things.

I do not belong to any religion, I do not believe blindly in all the scriptures whether it is Bible or Geeta or Koran, but I like to explore the truth or the meanings behind these writings. I do think the writers of these were just like us but with some exceptional abilities and experience.

For me it is very difficult to conceive God as some Super guy standing up there ready pounce on us every time we do some bad thing. Old Testament people seemed to experience God more as a Judge than a Lover. Probably this is not very different from Hindu mythologies about God coming down 10 times to kill the evils.
Story of Genesis as I pointed out is also a myth, but in this story I do find how the human conscience evolved and without a free conscious mind I cannot love another human being. This is an active process and it is not natural way. Your explanation with a robot is amusing, but a robot is a robot, we can never create a robot with human emotion or love.

It is my understanding the only thing that stirs human heart is Love. Love is not a reaction. If I love you because you love me that is a mere trade, or some times this is very natural process like love between a parent and a child. I guess God's love is more than that. It seems it is unnatural, irrational and beyond reasons. Without love we can never be thoughtful, attentive and considerate.
Verse Matthew 10.34-35 did not make sense to me but when I started looking deeper; it is about the unnatural and irrational love. Sword is a metaphor here. In the Love among our own family we are very interdependent on our kith and kins and most of us are happy in our own little world. This verse is challenging us to break away from that world and to see the big world. The peace people aspire is an illusion like going to Heaven. This world has seen enough wars and will continue to see more of it. But people do experience moments of Love that is what I call God.

[Kaos]

But people do experience moments of Love that is what I call God.




So, if someone experiences moments thinking/feeling "I love to kill someone", like for example, the suicide bomber or jihadist, then that must be God, eh?

[Kaos]

... But people do experience moments of Love that is what I call God.




Love is an emotion. Like thoughts, they are fleeting and subject to change.

That's why we have divorce in this country.:)


Love is a poor representation of "God" or Ultimate Reality, which is unchanging, Eternal.

[atanu]

******************************************************
-------

It is my understanding the only thing that stirs human heart is Love. Love is not a reaction. If I love you because you love me that is a mere trade, or some times this is very natural process like love between a parent and a child. I guess God's love is more than that. It seems it is unnatural, irrational and beyond reasons. Without love we can never be thoughtful, attentive and considerate.
------



Dear vcindiana,

No doubt your posts offer refreshing insights. It goes well with me that God is not about control and about fear. God is love. The purest love without want, without fear, and full of sacrifice. This is nice.

At the same time when you say 'It is my understanding the only thing that stirs human heart is Love'. I will ask what makes one aware of love and the stirring of the heart?

And secondly, why you should find it wrong if one puts the love in an image or a murti? That also is love. I think, in the final analysis, you have not yet been touched by that love.

Om Namah Shivaya

[vcindiana]

Dear vcindiana,

No doubt your posts offer refreshing insights. It goes well with me that God is not about control and about fear. God is love. The purest love without want, without fear, and full of sacrifice. This is nice.

At the same time when you say 'It is my understanding the only thing that stirs human heart is Love'. I will ask what makes one aware of love and the stirring of the heart?

And secondly, why you should find it wrong if one puts the love in an image or a murti? That also is love. I think, in the final analysis, you have not yet been touched by that love.

Om Namah Shivaya

Let me write my recent experience;

Recently me and my wife paid a brief visit to India spending some time with my sister in law who was dying of breast cancer. It was indeed a spiritual journey for us. We knew she was diagnosed with cancer a few years ago and she underwent very painful surgery, radiation and chemotherapy. Despite all the efforts her cancer came back in full speed. I received a message that she was not doing well. Being in the medical profession I could guess her prognosis was dismal. I felt the need but not the urge to go to India. I was too busy with my own practice and I felt traveling to India was a huge ordeal for me. I knew I could not do anything medically for her. Some how an inner spirit in me forced me take the trip. Finally we left our place for India. The day after we arrived in the City we headed towards the village, about 120 miles away from the city. My brother’s 18 year old daughter who happened to be studying in a college in the city accompanied us. The train journey was wonderful, talking to each other. We could observe the girl’s full free spirit despite her Mom‘s suffering. She chatted almost non-stop during the journey, a fellow traveler had to tell me to lessen the noise of our conversation!!

Finally we reached the village. It was sad to see my sister in law being sick, weak and feeble. She was deeply jaundiced. But her mental status was very clear. This lady used to be very lively, pretty much ran the buisness of the rural farm house. She was also a great cook. She was known for cooking every day very good South Indian food in huge quantities and no one who visited her went hungry. She felt bad for not being a host ,to delight us with her culinary skills. Her mother and my sister were there during this time. Despite being gravely sick she instructed them several times to cook on her terms so that we coming from “America” properly enjoyed her food.
At the end of her life I could observe her outburst, disappointed with the God of her own imagination. She did not like my brothers spending time, money and effort on the recent Temple renovation activities. She was mad with her own community people. I could feel her anger and I heard her using cuss words, as her Gods did not meet her expectation. I was told she sought after every Idol God in the village, offered special rituals, poojas chicken sacrifice etc in the hope of overcoming her deadly disease. I could feel her pain and misery.
She very much was looking for our visit. Prior to our visit she told her mother “God from America” would be visiting her to eliminate her problem! She had built up a large hope in us. We do not know whether she realized that we were just ordinary human beings, absolutely with no miracles. To a large extent we controlled her pain with the medicines we took from here, she slept and rested better. I tried to explain to her that God always loved her but the logic did not satisfy her pain and suffering. It was hard for her caring mother to see how a loving God could be mean to her and bring an end to her life at her early age. She kept blaming “bad” Karma. My brother was no doubt a very caring person; he really loved her and cared for her. Going through many tragedies of his own life it appeared he was somewhat resilient and stoic. Daughter was devastated; she could not bear loosing her beloved mother. She spent days and nights in Mom’s bed crying. My wife was great in comforting her. Having her own daughter of similar age she could very well relate to this. My sister was there mostly in charge of the kitchen. I could feel the pain in her heart as she wished her sister in law’s suffering would soon be over. She even hinted at mercy killing! she just could not bear her suffering.
Sister in law became semiconscious and every one became a little anxious whether her pathetic condition would linger several days or even weeks. In my selfish thinking I was thinking about my practice and I had to return home by Saturday. I wondered how we could leave that place and people in such situation. I tried not to think about it and left this to God. All Wednesday night her breathing was noisy and I could not make out the exact reason. Thursday morning around 9 AM she became very restless. Shortly after her breathing slowed and she left us by 9 30 AM. At the time of death she was surrounded by me, my wife, Husband , daughter , her mother and a maid servant . It was indeed a sad moment. Finally my stoic dear brother broke down and tears rolled down from his eyes. I hugged him and let him cry. My wife held his daughter in her arms consoling and comforting her. We were at an emotional high at that moment. I wondered how our loving God could do such thing. How could He not be merciful to this young lady who worshipped Him fervently.

My thoughts went deeper, God abdicated his power to heal her cancer. I realized He is not in business of mercy on demand. He cannot do anything about preventing natural calamities. The way God loved us is by giving ultimate freedom to us. He put us in the Driver’s seat. Only in full freedom we can love.
I do not think her death could not have been any better; Our loving God ,through His people, surrounded her. I felt that God was crying at that moment, He did not have any MIRACLE or MAGIC just because He put Love in front of life.
I was glad I was there to experience this marvelous though tragic event. I felt good praying several times with my brother to comfort him. Loving act of God did continue at the time of funeral as people flocked to say good-bye to this sweet lady and as all sorts of people came to help with the funeral arrangement in a short period of time. That was amazing.
It was sad my s in law probably died not knowing real loving living God. She just could not recognize the living God working through her dear husband and daughter, caring mother, and the maid servant (despite verbally abused several times by her). These people helped her and cared her beyond their limits. Grace was abundant. Paying gratitude was all that required to see and feel God’s presence.
I cannot help not quoting this: “In his book the Magnificent Defeat, Fredrick Buechner writes: for what we need to know, of course is not just that God exists, not just beyond that steely brightness of the stars there is some cosmic intelligence of some kind that keeps the whole show going, but there is God right here in the thick of our day by day lives who may not be writing messages about himself in the stars but in one way or another is trying to get the messages through our blindness as we move around down here knee deep in the fragrant muck and misery and the marvel of the world. It is not the objective proof of God ‘s existence that we want but the experience of God’s presence. That is the miracle we really after, and that is also, I think the miracle we really get. “

We reached home safely. This trip was indeed a big event in our life. Tragedy did happen but Love of God prevailed. We are thoroughly blessed. All we can say is a big THANK YOU. We thank God again for this heart moving trip we made and we are sure this will profusely enrich our lives.

[atanu]

Let me write my recent experience;

--My thoughts went deeper, God abdicated his power to heal her cancer. I realized He is not in business of mercy on demand. He cannot do anything about preventing natural calamities. The way God loved us is by giving ultimate freedom to us. He put us in the Driver’s seat. Only in full freedom we can love.
------


Namaste VC,

You have written a moving personal saga. I empathise with it, since my own father left his body in my hands. He also had cancer and I saw his helpless anguish turn into bliss at the end.

This is only the beginning for you. Since, my experience was different. I sensed the Atma. I sensed the freedom of my father. And I knew that the body is lifeless and is just a conglomeration of everchanging particles, held together organised by a very superior force -- called Will.

God does not interfere. That does not mean that He cannot intervene. No. My personal experiences contradict that. At the moment you are too occupied with physical calamities and emotions, which actually exist and play at the level of thoughts. You have no clue of the substratum wherefrom the thoughts emerge and which is the reality.

You think that shedding of the body is death. Markandeya Rishi was granted eternal life at the age of 15 when he was destined to die. God intervened and decided that the Rishi will be 15 forever, so that the age of so-called death would never arrive. This does not mean that Markendya rishi is still 15 with the same body.

Becoming immortal at 15 means Self Realization -- experiencing permanently that I am not the body and that 'I am' is eternally immortal.

To the ego that You and Me are (at present), there is no personal freedom and the best you and me can do is to equate God with the emotions of love and pity (self pity).

The Self, on the other hand, being absolutely matter free, is absolute freedom. Love arises from it. Anger also arises from it. Calamity arises from it. Solace also arises from it. The Self does not interfere. But the Self as Iswara does.


Of course, I sense that this may be (or may not be) like playing a flute to a buffalo, since as I said before, one with the sensitivity of love as god will not crib about idol worship. This cribbing shows insensitivity which is not love. You are harping of love but you do not know it.

Moreover, the lovers of physical bodies are the greatest idolators.

Best wishes with love

Om Namah Shivaya

[Kaos]

...I do not think her death could not have been any better; Our loving God ,through His people, surrounded her. I felt that God was crying at that moment, He did not have any MIRACLE or MAGIC just because He put Love in front of life.




This is not Sanatana Dharma,
But another piece of Christian prattle.
I think you're on the wrong forum.

[Kaos]

If "God" was Love and he made us in his own image, then we'd all be loving each other, but everywhere is war, crime, violence. This "God" of love is not doing a very good job either.

[saidevo]

Namaste vcindiana.

Your saga of personal suffering, physical on the part of the dying and mental of those around her is moving. You are perhaps entitled to your views on a powerless but loving God, given your religious upbringing.

The case is different, not just in theory, but in practice too, with the Hindus. Even a rustic Hindu who grieves wailing at the death of a dear one knows that it is not all for the dead invidividual. For he knows that the dead is only disembodied and the soul continues to live in another plane, another world, another dimension, though he can no longer have the luxury of its physical presence and direct communication.

Generally I find Christians mourning the death of a dear one and feeling his/her absence for years together, always yearning for the dead to resurrect and come back, which they know will never happen. When even scientists believe in the existence of a soul and Christianity is there to 'save the souls' (not bodies), I find this kind of long and continued mourning (a sentiment that is kept alive in the Holywood movies) is odd, perhaps ignorant.

If God is loving everyone, powerless to save a soul from death while He does save another soul miraculously in another case, then it would mean that this God is partial, punishing and is selective. It beats my wildest imaginations, how a person who believes in God can think that He is loving but not powerful enough.

In terms of the Hindu interpretation, your sis-in-law suffered on her prolonged death bed, on account of her karma. The more she suffered in her last days meant the more expenditure of karma. Perhaps it was her last birth. God was more caring for her soul that it should move to a higher state after the necessary torments it had to undergo.

Bishop C.W.Leadbeater strongly advocates against continued mourning for the dead, check his book To Those Who Mourn at http://www.anandgholap.net/To_Those_Who_Mourn-CWL.htm. He says (elsewher) that the departed soul further suffers by the sorrow of its dear ones it left behind. The soul also has a strong affinity to its buried body and feels sad when it decays. It is for this reason, Theosophists like Leadbeater and Annie Besant call it a barbarian practice to bury the dead and advocate burning of the dead body so the departed soul is freed of the bondage.

My heartfelt condolences to you for your loss. You are 100% right that God is Love and that he expects the humans to cultivate altruistic love among themselves and towards Him. Perhaps with time, reading and meditation, your confused thoughts in other respects may be resolved.

[Kaos]

If "God" is Love, he will not bear to see any of his children suffer eternal damnation in the fires of hell as the Christians would have their flock believe to keep them in line. Christianity is more about control, blind faith and keeping it's followers ignorant.

If "God" is Love, he would prevent the mere thought of any of his children going to hell to spend the rest of eternity from happening.

Giving mere mortals "free will" to choose betwen salvation and eternal damnation is pure b.s. in my book. Again, my apologies to the board.


Why were Adam and Eve banished from the Garden of Eden?

Because Adam and Eve wanted to taste the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

And the Christian "God" wanted to keep them in ignorance.

[Agnideva]

Namaste All,

To say God is to be realized as/by pure love (prema in Sanskrit, anbu in Tamil, etc.) is not contrary to Hindu teachings. It is an important teaching in the bhakti path.
That (devotion) is indeed of the nature of supreme love in God. The supreme love for the Lord, called devotion divine, is of the nature of immortality also. (Narada Bhakti Sutra verse 2-3)
However, without belief in karma, God becomes the doer of all things (good and bad), and to apply the terms "pure love" or "pure bliss" to a God who is judge, jury and executioner makes little sense. Pure love or pure bliss is that which is beyond both the good and bad happenings in this world, imho.
Love without the knowledge of His true nature (is) like the illicit love for the paramour. (Narada Bhakti Sutra verse 23).
OM Shanti,
A.

[Kaos]

Namaste All,


To say God is to be realized as/by pure love (prema in Sanskrit, anbu in Tamil, etc.) is not contrary to Hindu teachings. It is an important teaching in the bhakti path.



Indeed.
However, pure love is an attribute to the Divine Being.

Similar to a blind man touching the trunk of an elephant, and saying: "An elephant is like a tree" and concluding that an elephant must be a tree."

Ascribing the Divine to a particular quality or attribute alone is limiting the Unlimited.

Therefore, stating the "God is Love" alone has truth in it, but is flawed, because by stating the declarative statement that "God is Love" alone is not Absolute Truth, which is Indescribable, Unknowable.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Kaos,

However, pure love is an attribute to the Divine Being.
What you say is true. But, then again bhakti is always directed toward the Divine Being with attributes (Saguna Brahman or Ishvara). So in that framework putting an attribute onto the Divine is not flawed, even if it be from the absolute standpoint.


Therefore, stating the "God is Love" alone has truth in it, but is flawed, because by stating the declarative statement that "God is Love" alone is not Absolute Truth, which is Indescribable, Unknowable.For that matter, so is placing attributes onto the Divine such as existence (sat), consciousness (chit) and bliss (ananda). The best description of the Indescribable within Hinduism remains neti neti (not this, not this).

OM Shanti,
A.

[Kaos]

Namaste Kaos,

What you say is true. But, then again bhakti is always directed toward the Divine Being with attributes (Saguna Brahman or Ishvara). So in that framework putting an attribute onto the Divine is not flawed, even if it be from the absolute standpoint.

The best description of the Indescribable within Hinduism remains neti neti (not this, not this).

OM Shanti,
A.


Yes, indeed, Agnideva. Love indeed is an attribute to the Divine, even a path to realize the Divine. Only the pure devotees of Lord Krishna know Him.

Yet, love alone does not do justice to fully describe the Incomprehensible, Unknowable, Ungraspable, Unlimited.

Yes, I agree.
neti neti neti.

Namaste,
Kaos

[Kaos]

Ultimate Reality can also be spoken of as Being-Consciousness-Bliss, which is beyond the body and not the mind which produce thoughts/feelings, emotions such as love, etc.

In this Consciousness or Awareness, there is no differentiation between subject and object.

[vcindiana]

Every religion tries to control, no exception, isn’t that because of the fear? I believe Scriptures including Bible and Geeta were written by people just like us but these people were exceptional, you may call divinely inspired. There is history, there is culture, there is customs, there are rules etc..these narratives are the way these early people perceived God. There are huge metaphors with deep seated meanings.
But I still wonder who is this God thing? Christianity's Sin theory or Hindu's Karma theory or Koran writing are same and at best skeptical. These appear to be created by the writers to put fear of God in people. I guess these are road signs, may be good to follow these. But I come back to my original conviction that God has to be nothing but love. Freewill is the lens to see Love. Freedom and Love go together. In Bible Genesis is about free will. I guess Vedanta talks about the most important thing in life that is self realization. Only in free thinking I see Love. In love there is no need for discipline or rules. Love brings its own creative understanding. A man who loves does not do whatever he likes. It is Love alone that matters, no wonder God equals love. It is amazing.

[Kaos]

It is Love alone that matters, no wonder God equals love. It is amazing.




Indeed, the Christian "God" loves his children, sooo much that he gives them the "freewill" to choose between heaven and eternal damnation in hell.

Some "God" indeed, who is supposed to be All-Powerful, and yet cannot save his own children from such fate.

Please, your views are more in line with Christianity. Perhaps, you would be better off registering at a Christian forum, instead of trolling and spamming this Hindu Sanatana Dharma forum with your Christian prattle.

[Agnideva]

Christianity's Sin theory or Hindu's Karma theory or Koran writing are same and at best skeptical. These appear to be created by the writers to put fear of God in people.

Namaste VC,

I fail to see how the karma theory puts fear of God in people. Care to explain?

OM Shanti,
A.

[Kaos]

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7692/god20hates20fags764129fy1.jpg


Hmmm. The Christian "God" is Love indeed.
And it seems that the pure Christian "devotees" are sooo much full of this thing called, ehem... Love. whatever that means...

:)

[Kaos]

But I still wonder who is this God thing? Christianity's Sin theory or Hindu's Karma theory or Koran writing are same and at best skeptical. These appear to be created by the writers to put fear of God in people.




If you think that the Hindu/Buddhist view of karma (kamma) is what instills in them to fear "God," then you are terribly mistaken, and grossly mis-informed, my friend.

Did they drive you out of the Christian forums that's why you choose instead to troll this Hindu Sanatana Forum?

Again, I am convinced that your only motivation to be part of this forum is to spam this board with your Christian drivel, masquerading as "God is Love".

[Kaos]

Moreover, "God" in Christianity does not have exactly, the same connotation as in Hinduism, let alone, in Buddhism.

It is nice to equate the Divine, Supreme Being, Ultimate Reality with the attribute of "Love".

But to equate, infer, only a mental concept of love to Supreme Consciousness, like the Christians do, is merely a form of delusion.

[Kaos]

Vcindiana,
Your Christian "God is Love" inspired posts is cute and nice, and yes, maybe even touching, but it is not the theme of this forum, unless you consider yourself a lost Christian who needs to troll Hindu forums in order to validate whatever faith you have left in your Christian religion, no matter how flawed it is presented.

To insist that your Christian "God is Love" view is equally consistent with the Dharmic view only points to typical Western ignorance and arrogance to learn.


Below is what is considered as Sanatana Dharma of Hinduism.


Self Realisation (http://www.hinduism.co.za/self-rea.htm) (Svetasvatara Upanishad)

The Rishis (seers of truth), absorbed in meditation, saw within themselves the ultimate Reality, the self-luminous Being, the one God, who dwells as the self-conscious power in all creatures. To realise God, first control the outgoing senses and harness the mind. Then meditate upon the light in the heart of the fire - meditate, that is, upon pure consciousness as distinct from the ordinary consciousness of the intellect. Thus the Self, the Inner Reality, may be seen behind physical appearance. Control your mind so that the Ultimate reality, the self-luminous Lord, may be revealed.

[sarabhanga]

“ LOVE ”

What is Love, if not Kind?
What is Love, if not True?
What is Love, if not Given?
What is Love, if not Holy?
What is Love, if not Free?

What is Love, without Purity?
What is Love, without Peace?
What is Love, without Fire?
What is Love, without Increase?
What is Love, without God?

[suresh]

To insist that your Christian "God is Love" view is equally consistent with the Dharmic view only points to typical Western ignorance and arrogance to learn.


But isn't bhakti yoga compatible with Hindu Dharma? I thought love was the single most important path in Hinduism, the Lord having stressed it time and again in his Gita.

[atanu]

But isn't bhakti yoga compatible with Hindu Dharma? I thought love was the single most important path in Hinduism, the Lord having stressed it time and again in his Gita.

Dear Suresh,

Sarabhanga Ji, as usual, has summed it up nicely without getting into any argument.

Love thy neighbour of Christianity is not unique, it is reflection of Sanatana Dharma teaching that "All is Brahman". Without Bhakti, Jnana will not dawn and without loving self less work love will not dawn.


What I feel objectionable in the thread is the very subject itself "Idol Worshipping". A person, who professes that God is Love and Love is God, finds fault with the love of devotees who first put their own heart in an idol and then worship the idol as an icon of the all embracing HEART (Hridaya) that is Love since it is Sad Chid Ananda -- there is no place for hate here. Why should God be not there in an idol, when He is everywhere?

So love is Bhakti to 'God and all' and it is strong in Sanatana Dharma.

On the other hand, the reformist attitude of VC is not love. These egos, such as VC come from a position of closed mind, assuming a-priori of their righteousness and inferiority of others. This stems from the greatest idolation -- the love of body as the Self.

Om Namah Shivaya

[sarabhanga]

What is Love, if not Kind? (Ahimsa)
What is Love, if not True? (Satya)
What is Love, if not Given? (Asteya)
What is Love, if not Holy? (Brahmacarya)
What is Love, if not Free? (Aparigraha)

What is Love, without Purity? (Sauca)
What is Love, without Peace? (Santosh)
What is Love, without Fire? (Tapa)
What is Love, without Increase? (Svadhyaya)
What is Love, without God? (Isvarapranidhana)

The 10 rules of Yama and Niyama are all aspects of universal Love.

[saidevo]

Namaste everyone.



To insist that your Christian "God is Love" view is equally consistent with the Dharmic view only points to typical Western ignorance and arrogance to learn.


It is this typical Western (specially American) arrogance and ignorance (in that order) displayed right from the scholarship level that seeks to 'pshychoanalyze' the Hindu Gods, customs and scriptures and arrive at such 'scholarly findings' as quoted below and incorporate them in the school and college textbooks in a bid to destroy Hinduism:



RISA Lila - 1: Wendy's Child Syndrome (Rajiv Malhotra)
http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2002/09/risa-lila-1-wendy-s-child-syndrome.htm

1. Sri Ramakrishna, the 19th century Hindu saint, has been declared by these scholars as being a sexually-abused homosexual, and it has become "academically established" by Wendy Doniger's students that Ramakrishna was a child molester, and had also forced homosexual activities upon Vivekananda. Furthermore, it has become part of this new "discovery" that Ramakrishna's mystical experiences, and indeed those of Hindu mystics in general, are pathological sexual conditions that need to be psychoanalyzed as such.

2. The Hindu Goddess is described by these scholars as a sex maniac, with a variety of pathological conditions. Western scholars are busy debating which kinds of pathologies best apply in specific instances, and are hard at work to capture supporting data in the backwaters of Indian society.

3. Other conclusions by these well-placed scholars include: Ganesha's trunk symbolizes a "limp phallus"; his broken tusk is a symbol for the castration-complex of the Hindu male; his large belly is a proof of the Hindu male's enormous appetite for oral sex. Shiva, is interpreted as a womanizer, who encourages ritual rape, prostitution and murder, and his worship is linked to violence and destruction.

4. Hindus are being profiled by these scholars, potentially setting them up for denial of the same human rights as the "civilized West." For instance, anthropologists have concluded that nursing Hindu mothers do not bond with their babies the way white women do, that Hindus lack a sense of individuality because of their inability to perceive separation in space or time, and that the Mahabharata is best seen as Krishna's Genocide.


They won't 'psychoanalyze' their own Christian God(s), customs and scriptures or themselves to start with. To them, the Eucharist custom of sharing and devouring Christ's blood and body is a symbol of their love for their God and their God's love for them. To them wearing an icon of the cross on the neck is a sign of love for God but to worship God as an image in stone is erotic and superstitious. But then in India (a country they love to hate), they would not be ashamed to employ the Hindu customs, images and languages to Christianity to sell their religious fraud on the gullible Hindu masses to convert the natives.

In the Annual Convention that proudly showcased "Professor Wendy Doniger is known for being rude, crude and very lewd in the hallowed portals of Sanskrit Academics. All her special works have revolved around the subject of sex in Sanskrit texts", as a BBC-linked site introduced her. Rajiv, who was present on the occasion asked Wendy openly, "Since you have psychoanalyzed Hinduism and created a whole new genre of scholarship, do you think it would be a good idea for someone to psychoanalyze you, because an insight into your subconscious would make your work more interesting and understandable?" All that she could reply to that question was, "You got me on this one."

Such acamedic scholarship in the name of liberty and freedom of opinion arises from projecting personal prejudices and perversities onto the subject of study. Such perversities are the result of a permissive society and culture which is largely a cesspool of all that is rotten. For what would you call the scholarship that seeks to mistranslate the term "lap" in a Bengali (or Sanskrit) language as "genitals" or "defiled sexual place" (what about the obiquitous laptop then?); mistranslate "head" as "phallus"; "touching softly" as "sodomy"; Krishna's "tribhanga" (literally three bends) as "cocked hips"--the list is endless.

The American Adharmic Army is multiplying in numbers, spamming and trolling Hindu tradition and human values. It is high time that Hindus residing in that country identify and engage these forces in meaningful acamedic debates and call their bluff on the lines shown by our great Adi Shankaracharya.

[Kaos]

Namaste everyone.

It is this typical Western (specially American) arrogance and ignorance (in that order) displayed right from the scholarship level that seeks to 'pshychoanalyze' the Hindu Gods, customs and scriptures and arrive at such 'scholarly findings' as quoted below and incorporate them in the school and college textbooks in a bid to destroy Hinduism:




That is true, saidevo.

Westerners (particularly American) claim to know God, as if saying "God is Love" over and over again, is sufficient.

How can they know God, when they don't even know their own minds?

[Kaos]

http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/dougkrieger/times_and_seasons/catholics_salute_hitler.JPG


Indeed, the Christian "God" is full of "Love".

Sign me up. ;)

[Kaos]

The Christian view that "God is Love" alone is limited and therefore flawed.

Didn't the Christian God create everything?

If the Christian God created everything, then he must have created love, including "no-love".

If the Christian God didn't create everything, and isn't responsible for everything, then he is not "God."

For the Christians to state that "God is Love" alone is like saying, that the door alone is the house.

They are separating the door from the windows, the walls, the rooms, the furniture, the chimney, even the space within that makes a house, a house.

For the same reason that a window alone does not make a house, a door alone does not make a house.

[vcindiana]

The Christian view that "God is Love" alone is limited and therefore flawed.


Are you done?
Thank you for your loaded instinctive survival response. I hope now you feel happy that you bashed a religion which is no different from any other religions.

I was born to an orthodox Hindu family but over the years I have become non religious. But I do believe and trust in God, not that I fear God not to “sin” or to keep me in "Good" Karma, or to worship him so I can be granted with all the good things in my life. Hey, these days Science can provide almost every thing, why do I care about God? Some times I think cave man created God!
But as I become free from all the religious stuffs and dogma, become more conscious and be aware of myself then I see God (if it ever existed) as to be Love only. No icons, no idols, no justice, no rules, no doctrines, no sin, no karma, no Dharma, duty, heaven, hell, magic tricks, mantras etc... Irrational or non sensical Love is only by God. Any Pope, a Guru, a priest, a maharishi, or a prophet, a politician or a government can become powerful and authoritive and can do justice or grant mercy on demand.
For me God is an experience, I can get strength, encouragement and wisdom in the times of adversaries.
I also need God because I do not want to be an arrogant. I cannot take life as granted. I need to thank some one who has provided the things I enjoy in my life. Gratitude is not natural, I need to constantly remind myself to thank God and then I would feel humble.

These are my personal thoughts and you do not have to agree with me.

God Bless you

[satay]

namaskar,
Just a quick note for now...
One need not be born in an orthodox hindu family (isn't orthodox hindu an oxymoron?) and then turn away from hinduism to bash hinduism. Hinduism has a big target on its back since it instructs men to uphold dharma that which is truth. Obviously in this age of kali, asuras seem to be succeeding in upholding adharma.

vcindiana, you should read osho if you don't already...

[satay]

Such acamedic scholarship in the name of liberty and freedom of opinion arises from projecting personal prejudices and perversities onto the subject of study. Such perversities are the result of a permissive society and culture which is largely a cesspool of all that is rotten. For what would you call the scholarship that seeks to mistranslate the term "lap" in a Bengali (or Sanskrit) language as "genitals" or "defiled sexual place" (what about the obiquitous laptop then?); mistranslate "head" as "phallus"; "touching softly" as "sodomy"; Krishna's "tribhanga" (literally three bends) as "cocked hips"--the list is endless.

The American Adharmic Army is multiplying in numbers, spamming and trolling Hindu tradition and human values. It is high time that Hindus residing in that country identify and engage these forces in meaningful acamedic debates and call their bluff on the lines shown by our great Adi Shankaracharya.

no comment

[Kaos]

Are you done?
Thank you for your loaded instinctive survival response. I hope now you feel happy that you bashed a religion which is no different from any other religions.

I was born to an orthodox Hindu family but over the years I have become non religious. But I do believe and trust in God, not that I fear God not to “sin” or to keep me in "Good" Karma, or to worship him so I can be granted with all the good things in my life. Hey, these days Science can provide almost every thing, why do I care about God? Some times I think cave man created God!
But as I become free from all the religious stuffs and dogma, become more conscious and be aware of myself then I see God (if it ever existed) as to be Love only. No icons, no idols, no justice, no rules, no doctrines, no sin, no karma, no Dharma, duty, heaven, hell, magic tricks, mantras etc... Irrational or non sensical Love is only by God. Any Pope, a Guru, a priest, a maharishi, or a prophet, a politician or a government can become powerful and authoritive and can do justice or grant mercy on demand.
For me God is an experience, I can get strength, encouragement and wisdom in the times of adversaries.
I also need God because I do not want to be an arrogant. I cannot take life as granted. I need to thank some one who has provided the things I enjoy in my life. Gratitude is not natural, I need to constantly remind myself to thank God and then I would feel humble.

These are my personal thoughts and you do not have to agree with me.

God Bless you


Vcindiana,
Forgive for pointing things out to you, "bluntly" so to speak. I think, you're just trying to pull our leg and chirping at things of which you have no real understanding of what you are saying.

I think you are just putting together bits and pieces of stuff you read about in these forums and claiming those as your "self-realization."

You also claim you were born as an "orthodox Hindu". What exactly is an "orthodox Hindu". My understanding is that in Hinduism there is no single creed or doctrine that binds Hindus together. There are even schools of philosophies in the religion that overlap.

Therefore, what then, is an "orthodox Hindu". What were you???

You also say that you are an ex-"orthodox Hindu" who doesn't believe in religion, religious stuffs and dogma, doesn't believe in icons, doesn't believe in idols, doesn't believe in justice, no rules, no doctrines, no sin, no karma, no Dharma, duty, heaven, hell, magic tricks, mantras etc... doesn't believe in a Pope, Guru, priest, a maharishi, or a prophet, a politician or a government... yet you proudly claim to only believe in God.

Consider this, if your "God" is indeed God, he would exist everywhere, he would be transcendental, meaning, He would be found EVERYWHERE.

Sorry to say, I think, you're just one confused fellow.

Have a nice day.
Kaos

[satay]

namaskar vcindian,



I am not any religious expert, but an ordinary guy who likes to explore things.


Then we have something in common. I am an ordinary simple minded guy also.



I do not belong to any religion,


Hard to believe reading your posts. You may not belong to any religion but your posts show that you have been influenced by abrahamic mythologies old and new. I am not implying that there is something wrong in getting influenced by the abrahamic myths.



I do not believe blindly in all the scriptures whether it is Bible or Geeta or Koran, but I like to explore the truth or the meanings behind these writings.

Perfect, then we have another thing in common.




For me it is very difficult to conceive God as some Super guy standing up there ready pounce on us every time we do some bad thing. Old Testament people seemed to experience God more as a Judge than a Lover.


Yes, same for me too. Like I said, the ‘GOD is love’ is a new spin on the old merchandise. Why salesmen think that by packaging it differently people will be fooled is beyond me, yet we see so many people even with MBAs and such being duped everyday.



Probably this is not very different from Hindu mythologies about God coming down 10 times to kill the evils.


To the contrary, Vedic system is the only system that offers truth about GOD, its nature, its divinity and our relationship with him. While the abrahamic myths are simply that i.e. myths of the peasants who were unable to understand the message of their own guru and thus brutally murdered him.



Story of Genesis as I pointed out is also a myth, but in this story I do find how the human conscience evolved and without a free conscious mind I cannot love another human being.


This is where I have difficulty grasping the logic behind it all. You say ‘without the free conscious mind I can not love another human being’. I ask you this, “do you have free conscious mind according to genesis?”



This is an active process and it is not natural way.


Huh? Why isn’t natural?



Your explanation with a robot is amusing, but a robot is a robot, we can never create a robot with human emotion or love.


You missed my point with the robot! Please consider reading my post again. The point was not that ‘robot is a robot and it can never have human emotion’ The point was that ‘when robot is given the power to choose, expecting it to follow only one choice 100% of the time would be illogical.’ Do you see the logic in this simple statement? If not, don’t feel bad about it because this simple logic almost always confuses the so called scholars.



It is my understanding the only thing that stirs human heart is Love. Love is not a reaction. If I love you because you love me that is a mere trade, or some times this is very natural process like love between a parent and a child. I guess God's love is more than that. It seems it is unnatural, irrational and beyond reasons. Without love we can never be thoughtful, attentive and considerate.

Okay.



Verse Matthew 10.34-35 did not make sense to me but when I started looking deeper; it is about the unnatural and irrational love. Sword is a metaphor here. In the Love among our own family we are very interdependent on our kith and kins and most of us are happy in our own little world. This verse is challenging us to break away from that world and to see the big world. The peace people aspire is an illusion like going to Heaven. This world has seen enough wars and will continue to see more of it. But people do experience moments of Love that is what I call God.


This world has seen wars and will continue to see more as you say because of selfish men who have the need to shove their religion down other people’s throats at any cost and rape other cultures. But yes, you are right, people do experience moments of love of their family, friends and God even in the face of this cruelty of selfish men of certain faiths and godless societies.

[satay]

namaste vcindiana,




Are you done?
Thank you for your loaded instinctive survival response. I hope now you feel happy that you bashed a religion which is no different from any other religions.


Sorry to jump in your conversation with kaos but I think that his response is not ‘loaded instinctive survival’. As you had requested members here to put religions under scrutiny, kaos is simply doing as you had requested. He is not bashing any religion. For you it shouldn’t matter anyhow if a religion gets bashed or not, for you do not belong to a religion and more importantly you want us to scrutinize religions. Have we understood your request, if not, please clarify.




I was born to an orthodox Hindu family


What does this mean?



but over the years I have become non religious.


Many people are born in ‘hindu’ family by accident. I am one such person myself! I hate to burst your bubble but no one cares if we were born in hindu family and then turned to non religious or vice versa.



But I do believe and trust in God, not that I fear God not to “sin” or to keep me in "Good" Karma, or to worship him so I can be granted with all the good things in my life.


How does one ‘keep in good karma’? I have yet to find out how. Could you please explain how?



But as I become free from all the religious stuffs and dogma, become more conscious and be aware of myself then I see God (if it ever existed) as to be Love only. No icons, no idols, no justice, no rules, no doctrines, no sin, no karma, no Dharma, duty, heaven, hell, magic tricks, mantras etc... Irrational or non sensical Love is only by God. Any Pope, a Guru, a priest, a maharishi, or a prophet, a politician or a government can become powerful and authoritive and can do justice or grant mercy on demand.


Then my friend, you are a osho student. Please find out about him.



For me God is an experience, I can get strength, encouragement and wisdom in the times of adversaries.
I also need God because I do not want to be an arrogant. I cannot take life as granted. I need to thank some one who has provided the things I enjoy in my life. Gratitude is not natural, I need to constantly remind myself to thank God and then I would feel humble.

These are my personal thoughts and you do not have to agree with me.


Nice. Thanks for sharing.



God Bless you

We are all blessed here on HDF.

[satay]

It was sad my s in law probably died not knowing real loving living God. She just could not recognize the living God working through her dear husband and daughter, caring mother, and the maid servant (despite verbally abused several times by her). These people helped her and cared her beyond their limits. Grace was abundant. Paying gratitude was all that required to see and feel God’s presence.


Actually, all that is required is the understanding that GOD will not for whatever reason interfere in our lives directly. For whatever reason, he chooses to work through other people. Maybe she realized and saw god working through her family but did not explain to you her realization so this is why you are confused about her feelings.




I cannot help not quoting this: “In his book the Magnificent Defeat, Fredrick Buechner writes: for what we need to know, of course is not just that God exists, not just beyond that steely brightness of the stars there is some cosmic intelligence of some kind that keeps the whole show going, but there is God right here in the thick of our day by day lives who may not be writing messages about himself in the stars but in one way or another is trying to get the messages through our blindness as we move around down here knee deep in the fragrant muck and misery and the marvel of the world. It is not the objective proof of God ‘s existence that we want but the experience of God’s presence. That is the miracle we really after, and that is also, I think the miracle we really get. “


And this is in completely in line with the Vedic teachings. We can see the play of the Divine hand in every act we come across. God is independent yet immanent in every object of the universe. Rishi of Isavasya Upanishad declares, “whatver there is in this ephemeral world all that must be enveloped by the Lord.”

[vcindiana]

Vcindiana,
Forgive for pointing things out to you, "bluntly" so to speak. I think, you're just trying to pull our leg and chirping at things of which you have no real understanding of what you are saying.


Consider this, if your "God" is indeed God, he would exist everywhere, he would be transcendental, meaning, He would be found EVERYWHERE.

Sorry to say, I think, you're just one confused fellow.

Have a nice day.
Kaos
Thank you for enlightening me. I prefer to stay "confused' so I keep probing and have the oppertunity to grow. I cannot close my mind as many of the religious leaders do and enforce their dogmas, rules, rituals Karma etc. Thank you again, hope you also have a nice day.

[Kaos]

Thank you for enlightening me. I prefer to stay "confused' so I keep probing and have the oppertunity to grow. I cannot close my mind as many of the religious leaders do and enforce their dogmas, rules, rituals Karma etc. Thank you again, hope you also have a nice day.


If you you prefer to remain confused, it is not the same thing as saying you were "enlightened" at all.

It is merely pointing at the lack of grasp of the subjects and ideas you are trying to play with.

Confused is not the same as a stable, non-dualistic mind.

Confused is more in line with illusions and delusions.



Kaos

[vcindiana]

If you you prefer to remain confused, it is not the same thing as saying you were "enlightened" at all.

It is merely pointing at the lack of grasp of the subjects and ideas you are trying to play with.

Confused is not the same as a stable, non-dualistic mind.

Confused is more in line with illusions and delusions.


Kaos

Thank you again, you have grasped theology so well, Your MIND seems to be stable & non dualistic. You have become a SAINT, GURU, may be a God. Did you enjoy calling Me delusional & hallucinal ? Is'nt that a wonderful feeling ? Putting some one down is a natural thinking. No wonder people love cussing. As I mentioned earlier in my post it is the instinctive survival response. Making fun at some one comes easy. There are no thoughts behind that. My way of understanding is that God so loved us He gave the freedom of conscience. God never intended to do any natural thing. Love is not natural. ......

[Kaos]

Thank you again, you have grasped theology so well, Your MIND seems to be stable & non dualistic. You have become a SAINT, GURU, may be a God. Did you enjoy calling Me delusional & hallucinal ? Is'nt that a wonderful feeling ? Putting some one down is a natural thinking. No wonder people love cussing. As I mentioned earlier in my post it is the instinctive survival response. Making fun at some one comes easy. There are no thoughts behind that. My way of understanding is that God so loved us He gave the freedom of conscience. God never intended to do any natural thing. Love is not natural. ......


Again, you are providing responses that is but a hallmark of the delusional.
This time it seems you have become attached to the negative comments and posts about your viewpoint, here on this thread. A thread, by the way, that you yourself started.

You start a topic that is open to controversy, you should expect to read views, comments. Some of these comments will run completely counter to your agenda to put an entirely Christian twist to the entire subject of Sanatana Dharma.

Also, the way you have presented yourself during the course of discussions with regards to this thread, left your viewpoint open to attack from all sides, regardless of how subtle they may appear.

Did you expect all of us too completely agree to your controversial viewpoints?
Each and everyone of us, 100%?
I think, you expected too much.

I suggest, you stop berating and feeling sorry for yourself and your cause.

Your viewpoint although, not entirely invalid, has been for the most part debunked by many, not only me, as you can see by analyzing the responses given above.


Kaos

[satay]

God never intended to do any natural thing. Love is not natural. ......

namaste vcindiana,
Could you please explain this a bit further? I still can not grasp this idea though you have stated it twice on this thread yet I don't get it.

Much appreciated.

[satay]

Admin Note

Please note that flaming i.e. insulting other members is against the rules of this site, as such, I will be editing some of the posts on the thread. Please take care in future posts, refrain from making personal insults and focus on the issue instead of the person.

With kind regards,

From FAQ section -
No Flaming: Please do not post messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting to another member or guest. Please do not post inflammatory, rude, repetitive, or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize other members or disrupt the flow of discussion. This includes messages in profiles and signatures.

[vcindiana]

namaste vcindiana,
Could you please explain this a bit further? I still can not grasp this idea though you have stated it twice on this thread yet I don't get it.

Much appreciated.

Thank you for your patience. I love you for the fact as an administrator you took time and effort to edit the post.
The answer to your question is right here. You were alert and conscious. You were thoughtful, you were sensitive, you considered the post written by a member was not appropriate and took action. This is indeed a simple act of love. You may call it is your Duty or Dharma. Love goes beyond that. There is more heart rather than mind or brain. Dharma as I understood is something that we are expected or supposed to do. In love we go extra mile and this is not response driven. It does stir fellow human’s heart and there is nothing that can stop us from doing things. Love is not natural or an instinct. Only when we are free and fully conscious we can love.
In my search for truth I can define God only in terms Love, anything else we humans are very capable. We can be authorative, powerful, do justice, grant mercy etc.. Thank you for reading my post.

[Kaos]

God never intended to do any natural thing. Love is not natural. ......



Namaste vcindiana,
Please do not consider this reply to your post as being contentious.
Rather, my purpose is to point out certain misconceptions in your posts. Whether those misconceptions are intentional or not on your part, only you can answer.


God and nature is the same thing.
For nature is a manifestation of the Supreme Being


If you still prefer to remain "confused" and calling it your path, it's your choice. But a confused path is a very convoluted path indeed, and is neither skillful nor helpful to anyone.

[atanu]

----Love is not natural or an instinct. Only when we are free and fully conscious we can love.
----

As pointed out by Kaos, God Himself/Herself is nature.

Love is natural and instinctive. It has distortions, due to limitation of ego such as jealousy, hate, possessiveness, fear, guilt, and greed. Your stubbornness to fail to see that one needs the awareness to be aware of the love is an example of this limiting principle called ego.

And even after this long discussion you do not care to accept that your original post is not about love. It is about "I know better". It is about ego.

Om

[satay]

Thank you for your patience. I love you for the fact as an administrator you took time and effort to edit the post.
The answer to your question is right here. You were alert and conscious. You were thoughtful, you were sensitive, you considered the post written by a member was not appropriate and took action. This is indeed a simple act of love. You may call it is your Duty or Dharma. Love goes beyond that. There is more heart rather than mind or brain. Dharma as I understood is something that we are expected or supposed to do. In love we go extra mile and this is not response driven. It does stir fellow human’s heart and there is nothing that can stop us from doing things. Love is not natural or an instinct. Only when we are free and fully conscious we can love.
In my search for truth I can define God only in terms Love, anything else we humans are very capable. We can be authorative, powerful, do justice, grant mercy etc.. Thank you for reading my post.

namaskar!

I still fail to understand how love is not natural. Maybe it is just me...

I can say this honestly that the act of 'editing' the posts was not an act of love on my part. It was not because I was expressing my love for you or expressing my 'opposite of love' for other member. I was merely performing my duty....

Lord has instructed us to simply perform our duty...

You say that in love we go the extra mile yet you oppose those that show their love towards the divine by bowing down in front of murthis. Instead of going the extra mile and either understading this simple act of love or ignoring it all together you oppose it. This I can not grasp...

[Kaos]

You may call it is your Duty or Dharma. Love goes beyond that. There is more heart rather than mind or brain. Dharma as I understood is something that we are expected or supposed to do. In love we go extra mile and this is not response driven. It does stir fellow human’s heart and there is nothing that can stop us from doing things. Love is not natural or an instinct.




Again, you try very hard to make an attempt throw around terms and concepts that even you acknowledge of possessing but a minimum understanding and yet, judging by your behaviour, you expect us to take your posts seriously.

You have used the Dharma in your above post.
What is Dharma?

Dharma is used in two ways: capitalized with "D"

The word Dharma is derived from the root Dhr - to hold, or that which sustains the world, that which sustains the people, that which sustains the universe, that which sustains things, that which sustains all of nature, that which sustains the whole of creation from the microscopic to the macroscopic.

Dharma is used in two ways: capitalized with "D", it pertains to the teachings, scriptures, that which unites a people, duty and righteousness in the context of religion.

The other way the word dharma is used, spelled in the lower case "d", refers to the "the way of things", "things", "the law of nature", nature itself.

Although, Dharma with a capital "D" and dharma with a lowercase "d" are used differently, they are connected.

One cannot refer to that which sustains all of nature, by eliminating nature itself.

For the same reason that you cannot claim to know God by eliminating His connection to nature.

Therefore, you cannot claim to see/know/love/worship God by not seeing/knowing/loving/worshipping Him in nature such as in a tree, a mountain, or an idol, etc.

[vcindiana]

namaskar!

I still fail to understand how love is not natural. Maybe it is just me...

I can say this honestly that the act of 'editing' the posts was not an act of love on my part. It was not because I was expressing my love for you or expressing my 'opposite of love' for other member. I was merely performing my duty....

Lord has instructed us to simply perform our duty...

You say that in love we go the extra mile yet you oppose those that show their love towards the divine by bowing down in front of murthis. Instead of going the extra mile and either understading this simple act of love or ignoring it all together you oppose it. This I can not grasp...


Thank you for your response. Most of my writings are based on my own personal experience which I call seeking truth. I am not trying to influence any of you. Yes, it is confusing, but only in confusion I keep seeking more information and it is an ever growing process.
Love is not NATURAL and so GOD. It does not mean Love or God is artificial, God to me is SUPERNATURAL. God has to be beyond nature. Nature has no self consciousness; it has no freedom of thought. It is not sensitive, it is not responsive, it is not caring, and literally speaking it has no warm pulsating Heart.

Satay, you pointed out that you just did your duty. But in your free mind you could think what is and what is not appropriate, that is because of your sensitiveness and responsiveness. I call that love, not that you personally expressed love to me.

A person who loves dearly does not need any commandment, he just does it. Again, you do not have agree with me. Thanks again.

[Kaos]

God has to be beyond nature.



No.

God is immanent in His creation.

From the standpoint of Hinduism, God is transcendental, meaning, from Itself, It exists within all created entities as life and consciousness, whether manifest or latent.

[Kaos]

A person who loves dearly does not need any commandment, he just does it. Again, you do not have agree with me. Thanks again.




Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal?




You say that a person who loves dearly does not need any commandment and yet, with your first post in this thread, you are implying that Hindus should not worship Idols, by questioning their beliefs and their form of worship.

This is the double standard typical of Christianity and the West when it comes to how they view Hinduism and Hindus.

[Znanna]

Namaste,

To me, love is the understanding, the experience of the knowing that there is no difference between one and another. The skin is illusion, a convenient form ... but it also distracts from the participation, perhaps conveniently indulges else we might withdraw entirely and cease to exist as a species for favor of meditation!

WRT the meta-topic, Idol Worshipping, to me, worship is the love, the communion, anything is idol.

Love never dies, it simply is, IMO.




ZN

[Kaos]

Love in the true sense of the word is not possible unless one sees God in others as well as in His creation, and that includes the worship of symbols.

Hence, there is nothing wrong with idol worshipping as implied by vcindiana in the original post of this thread.

[satay]

In my humble opinion, the whole premise of the OP is wrong. Hindus do not 'worship' idols, we pray to 'murthis'.

It is sad to see that a person born in an orthodox hindu family did not learn this basic difference but then again there are more sad things than that...

vcindiana, no personal offence or insult intended.

Topic has been discussed here... http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=68

[willie]

Once again a lot of talking and not much else. All these idols keep the people making them employed. Even in roman times there was a brisk business in making small idols and icons for the wealthy and the local sunday market place was full of a wide variety of them.

One good thing about having a fast dvd drive on a laptop is that you can keep tabs on the quotes used in sermons and catch lying preachers in mid lie. That is worth the cost alone. And you can check out different translation of the same work.

[sarabhanga]

Hindus do not 'worship' ... we 'pray'


Namaste Satay,

To worship is to honor or adore as divine or sacred, especially with religious rites or ceremonies; or to offer prayer to God; or to regard with extreme respect, devotion, or love.

To pray is to ask earnestly or humbly, to beseech or beg, or to ask for something as a favor: and especially to make devout or humble supplication to God or an object of worship.

So, to worship is to offer prayer to God; and to pray is to make supplication to an object of worship. :rolleyes:

There is little difference, except that praying generally assumes asking for something, whereas worshipping assumes only respect, devotion, or love.

Worship is sacred devotion, while prayer is devout begging. ;)

[vcindiana]

[quote=satay;13764]In my humble opinion, the whole premise of the OP is wrong. Hindus do not 'worship' idols, we pray to 'murthis'.

It is sad to see that a person born in an orthodox Hindu family did not learn this basic difference but then again there are more sad things than that...

vcindiana, no personal offence or insult intended.

Topic has been discussed here... http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=68[/quote (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=68[/quote)]


Thank you Satay. I respect your way of understanding. As you read the next post by SG, people do have different ideas or opinions.

Thank you for your concern, but I had to resist the way of my "orthodox" family way of thinking and doing things. But I do love them and care about them. We enjoy our wonderful relationships and fun with each other. It does not matter that I or my family needs to go to a temple and pray or worship an idol.
Human mind is most fascinating, I resist the temptation to create an image and put faith in it. Then the mind derives power from its own creation, and then these cycles would keep repeating producing images after images and drawing strength. Then in that very process I forget to understand the operation of my own mind. Real purpose of mind is to be alert and sensitive. Love is to have that extraordinary feeling of sensitivity and caring attitude and it just doesn’t happen naturally. It can never be an instinct. If we consider God means Love, then God cannot be natural. God is probably obsessed with Love, meaning God has to be supernatural. As a human being I am weak and do get easily tempted, but it is OK as long as I retrace my track.
Thank you for reading.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam sarabhanga ji


In my humble opinion, the whole premise of the OP is wrong. Hindus do not 'worship' idols, we pray to 'murthis'.


i do not think satay is concerned about the use of the word worship against praying. his main concern is, if i read it correctly is the choice of the word 'IDOLS'. Murthis or deities are what the Hindus pray to or worship.
I 100% agree with satay on this.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Kaos]

If we consider God means Love, then God cannot be natural. God is probably obsessed with Love, meaning God has to be supernatural. As a human being I am weak and do get easily tempted, but it is OK as long as I retrace my track.
Thank you for reading.




The above statement sounds like the ones coming from the Christian apologists for the repugnant behaviour of their pedophile priests, and demonstrating their lack of moral integrity by trying to soft-peddle the problem, with the excuse that "God means Love", of course.

:o

[satay]

Namaste Satay,

To worship is to honor or adore as divine or sacred, especially with religious rites or ceremonies; or to offer prayer to God; or to regard with extreme respect, devotion, or love.

To pray is to ask earnestly or humbly, to beseech or beg, or to ask for something as a favor: and especially to make devout or humble supplication to God or an object of worship.

So, to worship is to offer prayer to God; and to pray is to make supplication to an object of worship. :rolleyes:

There is little difference, except that praying generally assumes asking for something, whereas worshipping assumes only respect, devotion, or love.

Worship is sacred devotion, while prayer is devout begging. ;)

namaskar!
yes I agree of course! My problem was the '' I put around the word worship that should have been around the world 'idol'. :D

[satay]

Thank you for your concern, but I had to resist the way of my "orthodox" family way of thinking and doing things. But I do love them and care about them. We enjoy our wonderful relationships and fun with each other. It does not matter that I or my family needs to go to a temple and pray or worship an idol.

namaste vcindiana,

Do you know the difference between praying to idols and praying to murthis?

[Kaos]

Why do Hindus have to worship Idols ? It appears Hindus have created Gods made out of metal, wood rock etc. How one can reduce all loving powerful God into a piece of metal? How can God sit within a temple like a jailed criminal? People argue that it is only a symbol, how can we make God into something like symbol? People go crazy about the idols, create glitzy temples, pour ridiculous money on jewelery and also create politics as to which idol they need to be worshipping . Even catholics worship idol Mary! Worshipping just the Cross is equally bad, real christ followers do not do that. There appears onething good in Islam that is not having an idol but its very religiousness that I cannot stand. Care to comment?


I no longer see the validity of the theme of the original thread which is a jab at "idol" and questioning whether the worship or prayer involved is valid or not.

Everything around us is God's creation, all things are His, all actions belong to Him, and that He is all pervasive.

O God of mercy, who performs the dance of the illimitable happiness in the hall of inconceivable knowledge! The Rig and the other Vedas are thundering forth in words, announcing to us that all are thy slaves, all things belong to thee, all actions are thine, that thou pervades everywhere, that this is thy nature. Such is the teaching of those who, though they never speak, yet broke the silence for our sake.
- Tayumanavar


If everything begins and ends with God, therefore, the argument questioning the "validity" or "invalidity" of idol worship is moot.

[vcindiana]

I am not into Sikhism, but this is what I found:


“IDOL WORSHIP

PART 1. INTRODUCTION

Sikhism believes in One immortal formless God. The God of all people regardless of religion or race. God is self-illumined, without fear, sans enmity. Truth is Gods name.

PART 2. THE STONE GODS

The Guru Granth Sahib rejects any worship of physical items such as stone idols, animals or plants. The worship of images, tombs or sacred stones is also rejected.

"They, who say the stone is God; in vain is their service. He, who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labour. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service."(Guru Granth Sahib, Arjan Dev, P.1160)

"The idol gives not the hungry and saves not the dying."(Guru Granth Sahib, Nanak, P.1240)

PART 3. THE HINDU IDOLS

Although Guru Nanak's parents were Hindus, he rejected the theory of the Hindu stone gods. Since most of the Sikhs are originally from India it has been difficult to rid themselves of this concept.

"The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord and are going the wrong way. As Narad instructed so worship they idols. They are blind, dumb and the blindest of the blind. The ignorant fools take stones and worship them. Those stones when they themselves sink, how shall they ferry thee across?" (Guru Granth Sahib, Nanak,P.556)

PART 4. PLUCKING LEAVES FOR STONE GODS

The idol worshipper plucks leaves from flowers and then they throw them over the stone idols. The verses below show that plucking the leaves kills life for a useless cause.

"Thou tearest off the leaves, O lady gardener but in every leaf there is life. The stone (idol) for which thou pluckest the leaves, that stone is life-less. In this, thou art mistaken, O lady gardener. The True Guru is the living Lord." (Guru Granth Sahib, Kabir, P.479)

"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ram Das, P.1264

PART 5. CONCLUSION

The worship of idols in any form does not free the mind to doing services of just cause. The rewards are none to them, the reward achieved in their lives are of consequence and not the result of idol worship. People always need some sort of hope when their minds are not yet enlightened. The philosophy of The Guru Granth Sahib takes one to a higher plane of thinking to rid the mind rituals


This did not come from Islam or Christianity. You be the judge

[satay]

namaste vcindiana,
You gave an answer to the wrong question and that too without any source.

My question was, "do you know the difference between praying to idols and praying to murthis."

If you want to answer this question honestly, you will first have to find out what a 'murthi' is and compare that to an 'idol'. once you learn that your response will have some meaning to us HDF members.

ps:
Do you know anything about sikhism? I am asking because I grew up in sikhism, all my friends were sikhs in India. What you posted here without any source is not the practice of sikhs. For sikhs the Guru Granth sahib is the idol and the Nishan sahib itself is an idol. Just like for christians the bible is the idol and the stone idols of marry and jesus in churches are idols. And for muslims the masjid and koran itself are idols.

On another thought, why should it matter to Hindus if christians, muslims, sikhs fail to understand the difference between idols and murthis.

[Kaos]

I

PART 2. THE STONE GODS

The Guru Granth Sahib rejects any worship of physical items such as stone idols, animals or plants. The worship of images, tombs or sacred stones is also rejected.



The Guru Granth Sahib is a book, a physical item. However, the Sikhs do not consider the Guru Granth Sahib as merely a book. To them, the Guru Granth Sahib is a living guru, and Sikhs worship in a gurdwara, while Christians worship in churches and Hindus worship in temples. These are belief systems inherent in different religions, in the same way, that perhaps your belief system consists of saying "God is Love" over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Is God changed because one chooses to worship in a certain way or not?
Differences in forms of worship or belief systems doesn't make God any more or less God than He already is.

It is the "ego-personality", it is ignorance that sees the difference.

[willie]

In the US you will some status in catholic churches and some of them are real works of art. But in most protestant churches you may see a cross with jesus on it but that is about all. And a lot of them don't even have that.

Now if we can just limit the distribution of holybooks, we might be getting somewhere.

[vcindiana]

namaste vcindiana,
You gave an answer to the wrong question and that too without any source.

My question was, "do you know the difference between praying to idols and praying to murthis."

If you want to answer this question honestly, you will first have to find out what a 'murthi' is and compare that to an 'idol'. once you learn that your response will have some meaning to us HDF members.

ps:
Do you know anything about sikhism? I am asking because I grew up in sikhism, all my friends were sikhs in India. What you posted here without any source is not the practice of sikhs. For sikhs the Guru Granth sahib is the idol and the Nishan sahib itself is an idol. Just like for christians the bible is the idol and the stone idols of marry and jesus in churches are idols. And for muslims the masjid and koran itself are idols.

On another thought, why should it matter to Hindus if christians, muslims, sikhs fail to understand the difference between idols and murthis.

As mentioned earlier, I am an ordinary confused unintelligent non religious person asking experts like you. I know for some of you it is Nauseating when I mention the word Love. Now I understand I have Ego problem. Thank you.

Idol vs. Murthi: I was raised in a very religious Hindu family, I do have some understanding. The rituals to make an Idol into Murthy did not make sense to me. Being in upper caste we worshipped only Murthified idol, my parents resented us to worship non murthified ones typically worshipped by the village lower class people. Untouchables were off limits; no way could they have Murthy Darshan. Village Idol Gods are even now considered as not worthy of worshipping by upper caste people. It appears only the social upper class has close connection with the God. I do not about you, for me it was out right sickening. Some temple does not even allow women to enter for the fear of angering Murthified idol. I cannot proclaim to be a Hindu not believing in these Idols or Murthies whatever you call. Also it is not just theology, it is culture as well. In religion we are made to believe the idol concept of God and it was difficult for me to wake up and get unconditioned. You may call me egoistic, but I do enjoy the freedom of conscience.

My good friend is a Sikh, I have even gone to Gurudwara. Any way, What I quoted was their writing. If it offends you, my sincere apologies.

Your question: why should it matter to Hindus:
What is wrong in questioning?


Today I had the opportunity of caring an elderly frail man in failing health, despite advanced modern medical care. I enjoyed spending time with him, feeding him and cleaning him. We had a good talk and fun. We thanked each other. I could see beautiful smile on him, statistically he has a limited time in this world but the time we enjoyed together made a huge difference. We saw God together. What else I need? GOD, it is all about LOVE.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

As mentioned earlier, I am an ordinary confused unintelligent non religious person asking experts like you. I know for some of you it is Nauseating when I mention the word Love. Now I understand I have Ego problem. Thank you.


My good friend is a Sikh, I have even gone to Gurudwara. Any way, What I quoted was their writing. If it offends you, my sincere apologies.

Your question: why should it matter to Hindus: What is wrong in questioning?

Today I had the opportunity of caring an elderly frail man in failing health, despite advanced modern medical care. I enjoyed spending time with him, feeding him and cleaning him. We had a good talk and fun. We thanked each other. I could see beautiful smile on him, statistically he has a limited time in this world but the time we enjoyed together made a huge difference. We saw God together. What else I need? GOD, it is all about LOVE.

Namaste vcindiana,
First let me say all questions are welcomed. Satay approached you with a good heart and good intentions.

Please express your feelings and your ideals as you see fit.

I am impressed with your kindness to the ailing man, as you surely understand the meaning of the spirit and no boundries. Service is His work here. The fallen and ill are for us to help within our means.

Please continue your posts...ask what is in your heart and we will try to answer the best we can. Yet at the end of the day , knowledge is for action, to be put to good use, and you are practicing that with the help of others.

pranams,

[Bhairava108]

Im probably jumping into the conversation a little late lol but whatev. as a Hindu I would say I dont worship the Murthi("Idol") as the God or Goddess but I worship the Energy of The God/Goddess that I invoke into the Image durring Sadhana and the symbolism behind it and the energy that is invoked into it goes way beyond the physical realm. you've obviously missed that in what you have seen. think of it like a cell phone. we punch in a number and call someone who is many miles away. well through ritual and the Murthi we contact the Gods/Godesses. the Murthi is like a receptacle(spelling) or an antenna to make contact. :) oh yeah and if your useing Islam as a religion without Idols I believe they have a a couple rituals were an object is somewhat worshipped, durring Haj I think they encircle a big square walking around it multiple times I believe the big square box thing represents god? I could be wrong in the actual meaning but also they have a ritual where they throw stones at a pole representing Satan! no matter how you look it, it could be concidered Idol worship. also almost all christians who celebrate christmas totally worship an object. ofcourse they will tell you different. but The Christmas Tree is totally subconciously worshipped! its decorated with ornaments and lights present like offerings are placed beneath it, familys gather around them and sing christmas carols from someone outside that totally looks like idol worship. people leave cookies out for santa clause like an offering before they go to bed children hang up stockings hopeing santa clause will fill them up with gifts. and if your a christian that celebrates christmas without Clause. well if you put up a nativity scene in your home you are honoring jesus with an Image/Idol. so in a round about sorta way the entire world worships or prays to or honors an image of something not just hindus and Budhists! also the western tradition of burying the dead you bury them place a ornate stone headstone or statue of somekind and a few times a year they are left flowers and gifts now that right there is straight up honoring the dead through man made image. anyway my point is everybody does, has done or will do it before they die and there is nothing wrong with it! oh yeah one more thing have you every thrown a penny into a fountain pond or wishing well and made a wish. well what do think that is.? my other point is God/Goddess exsists within all things even that which is man made infact one could say the gods themselves made them after all god/goddess exsists within everyone and everything. nothing is untouched by the gods/goddesses.

[Kaos]

As mentioned earlier, I am an ordinary confused unintelligent non religious person asking experts like you. I know for some of you it is Nauseating when I mention the word Love. Now I understand I have Ego problem. Thank you.




Allow me point something out to you in Buddhist terms.
The Buddha did not attempt to explain and solve each and every ethical and philosophical problems that perplexed mankind.

Nor did the Buddha didn't attempt to put an end to questions, once and for all, with regards to theories and speculations that tend neither to end suffering nor to gain enlightenment.

Basically, he was saying, you don't have enough time in this world to figure out each and every conceivable question you can come up with in this life. You will just end up getting more confused and might even lead you to lose your sanity.

People will worship God, the way they want to. It is their belief. You don't have to figure out and go out of your way to prove that one belief system is wrong and this other one is right.

If your belief system involves "God is Love", by all means, go out and show compassion, love and concern for all living being, including respect for God's creation. Because, really, God is everywhere, He is inside within all of us, He pervades His entire creation.

So, get on with it, if you sincirely believe that "God is Love" there was no point to drag this thread to ad infitinum, ad nauseum.

Go out and practice what you preach and show respect for other peoples' beliefs and ways of worship.

[satay]

Namaste vcindiana,



As mentioned earlier, I am an ordinary confused unintelligent non religious person asking experts like you. I know for some of you it is Nauseating when I mention the word Love. Now I understand I have Ego problem. Thank you.


First, by no means I am an expert in anything. Like I said earlier, I am a simplistic man like any other. All of the theological nonsense most of the time goes over right over my head. The meaning of Love is known to Hindus very well, dare I say, that Hindus are the only ones that know the real meaning? While the Christians use subtle ways to rape cultures and people in the name of love and muslims blow themselves up in the name of God and love, Hindus tolerate all this nonsense in the name of Ahimsa i.e. non-violence. Hindus pay the muslims and Christian minorities of India money and special privileges in the name of Love, all the while when hindus are getting shot dead by these minorities and the hindu culture is being annihilated. Such is our love!



Idol vs. Murthi: I was raised in a very religious Hindu family, I do have some understanding. The rituals to make an Idol into Murthy did not make sense to me. Being in upper caste we worshipped only Murthified idol, my parents resented us to worship non murthified ones typically worshipped by the village lower class people. Untouchables were off limits; no way could they have Murthy Darshan. Village Idol Gods are even now considered as not worthy of worshipping by upper caste people. It appears only the social upper class has close connection with the God. I do not about you, for me it was out right sickening. Some temple does not even allow women to enter for the fear of angering Murthified idol. I cannot proclaim to be a Hindu not believing in these Idols or Murthies whatever you call. Also it is not just theology, it is culture as well. In religion we are made to believe the idol concept of God and it was difficult for me to wake up and get unconditioned. You may call me egoistic, but I do enjoy the freedom of conscience.


There are a lot of things and practices of other cultures and religions that are sickening to me as well. For example, it is sickening to know the muslims mutilate the genitals of their daughters, such is their love of women. It is sickening for me to see that women are treated as a second class by the chrisitian scripture and by God of this scripture. Yes, there are many cultural problems in India but these problems are not ‘because’ of the religion. On the other hand, many of the problems we see Christian and Muslim societies and in fact, in the world today are due to their scriptures and wrong understanding of God. This is very sickening to me. People blowing themselves up and people raping other cultures and societies in the name of love and God is quite nauseating, I agree with you on that one hundred percent.



My good friend is a Sikh, I have even gone to Gurudwara. Any way, What I quoted was their writing. If it offends you, my sincere apologies.


Not at all, In fact, I grew up in Gurduwaras and love listening to gurbani myself. It does not offend me at all. Could you please provide the source of the information that you copied and pasted here before?


Your question: why should it matter to Hindus:
What is wrong in questioning?


Nothing at all. However, it seems to me that you just want to ‘question’ the hindus and seemed to get all out of shape when Kaos and others started questioning other religions. You called their questioning ‘survival’ response (?). I hope that you are not one of those ex-hindus (oxymoron again?), that are hell bent of finding faults in the religion of their parents because of some psychological need to prove something to themselves.



Today I had the opportunity of caring an elderly frail man in failing health, despite advanced modern medical care. I enjoyed spending time with him, feeding him and cleaning him. We had a good talk and fun. We thanked each other. I could see beautiful smile on him, statistically he has a limited time in this world but the time we enjoyed together made a huge difference. We saw God together. What else I need? GOD, it is all about LOVE.


Nice!

[satay]

Im probably jumping into the conversation a little late lol but whatev. as a Hindu I would say I dont worship the Murthi("Idol") as the God or Goddess but I worship the Energy of The God/Goddess that I invoke into the Image durring Sadhana and the symbolism behind it and the energy that is invoked into it goes way beyond the physical realm. you've obviously missed that in what you have seen.

An uneducated villager working in cow dung all day, bowing down in front of the statue of Lord Hanuman ...this simple act of worship seems to be confusing way too many scholars all around the world. I used to read about that a westerner visitor got confused and asked a lot of questions about the practice but now it seems that its not the reguarl westerner visitors, the confusion is among the well known scholars, phds, doctors and engineers of not only west but india's own blood.

This is really amazing to me because in more ways than one, I am like an uneducated villager working in cow dung all day...

[Kaos]

What is wrong in questioning?




Nothing wrong with questioning, but the theme of this thread "Idol worshipping", your tone and attitude throughout this thread, which by the way, is now 11 pages long, is not merely a respectful inquiry or search for more clarification to shed light on an issue in a positive manner.

Without the spirit of respect, your "questioning", over and over again, about the beliefs, traditions and even customs of others, different from your own, becomes a veiled condemnation, with an air of superiority.

Your idea of "God is Love" is true but is only part of the picture.

However, your insistence that "God is Love, nothing else" is foolish.
It can be applied to a suicide bombers' last thoughts before he blows himself up, along with a couple hundred other people who do not share his views, all this in the name of "God is Love, nothing else".

Sri Ramakrishna advised his disciples to see God in all beings and to serve them in a spirit of worship.

The Master often said that to see the world alone, without God is ignorance, ajnana;

To see God alone, without the world, is a kind of philosophical knowledge, jnana;

but to see all beings permeated by the spirit of God is supreme wisdom, vijnana.

Therefore, you may want to drop this endless questioning regarding "idol worshipping" that you see in others as being different from your own belief, and instead show love and respect for them regardless.

Since God in within us all, then go out and show love, respect and compassion to everyone, whether they choose to worship Him in whatever form they like. It is their belief, respect that as well.

To become respected, you have to show respect as well.
To become loved, you have to show love towards all as well.

[atanu]

I am not into Sikhism, but this is what I found:
“IDOL WORSHIP

PART 1. INTRODUCTION

Sikhism believes in One immortal formless God. The God of all people regardless of religion or race. God is self-illumined, without fear, sans enmity. Truth is Gods name.

-------
PART 5. CONCLUSION

The worship of idols in any form does not free the mind to doing services of just cause. The rewards are none to them, the reward achieved in their lives are of consequence and not the result of idol worship. People always need some sort of hope when their minds are not yet enlightened. The philosophy of The Guru Granth Sahib takes one to a higher plane of thinking to rid the mind rituals


This did not come from Islam or Christianity. You be the judge

Dear VC,

I have not had the time to read the later posts. From this post I will show you a few things:

1.Sikhs wear turban and keep beard. Do you follow that also?

2. In the very beginning, the post says that God is Truth. While you have maintained that God is Love. So, please change your belief.


The point is that truly there are thousands of perceptions of the Ultimate God. Using a Murti is the most loving one, like you might be keeping a picture of someone in your purse or your pocket or on your table. Why? Is is not love?

Some say that God is truth, some say Love, some say energy, some say order etc. etc.

Saying that My view alone is correct is akin to saying "I love my wife since she is so beautiful. You all must love her the way I love her".

Ha Ha Ha.


Om Namah Shivaya

[vcindiana]

I realize this is a hot topic, one of you got really offended and I can feel his intolerance towards me. You do have a great administrator who has a great sensitivity. I did enjoy all the responses I received. It is indeed nice to learn different perspectives and I keep growing. Thank you very much for your time and energy in sharing your views. My sincere apologies if you think I offended you.

God bless all of you.. Love always prevails..

[Kaos]

I realize this is a hot topic, one of you got really offended and I can feel his intolerance towards me. You do have a great administrator who has a great sensitivity. I did enjoy all the responses I received. It is indeed nice to learn different perspectives and I keep growing. Thank you very much for your time and energy in sharing your views. My sincere apologies if you think I offended you.

God bless all of you.. Love always prevails..


Namaste vcindiana,

No hard feelings on my part. I myself, learn a lot from these forums.

It is said, that we (souls, jivas) are all on a journey, back where we belong, some call it by different names, as in the Bhagavad Gita, I also, like to call it, back to Godhead.

May you have a pleasant and happy journey,
Kaos

[satay]

Namaste vcindiana,


I realize this is a hot topic,


‘this’ is a hot topic because western and now even misguided Indian scholars refuse to understand the humility in bowing down in front of the divine represented in murthis. This refusal is beyond my comprehension. I fail to understand the motive behind it. May be it has something to do with tough love? I couldn’t say for sure…



My sincere apologies if you think I offended you.


No, I can say for myself that I am not offended but I must admit that I am puzzled about the fact that how this simple act of humility can confuse such scholarly people.



God bless all of you..


Thank you and you too.



Love always prevails..

I agree with this in principle but I would have to disagree with this statement on practical matters. Practical experience is contrary to what you say.

Perhaps a more accurate statement is ‘Truth alone triumphs’ or ‘Satyameva Jayate’