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Gill Harley
31 March 2006, 05:23 AM
Satay has asked that I post some of my ideas that come from my research into most of the major religions and scriptures. I have found some commonalities in them which are leading me to believe that they couldoriginally have come from a common source, possibly the Vedas.

With Judaism, at this stage of the discussion, I will just give a very broad brush stroked overview of how my ideas are developing and then if others want to take up any specific points, we can go into more detail.

I am coming to the conclusion that the three major influences on Judaism


Zoroastrianism, with which the Israelites would have come into contact around 500 BC when they were captive in Babylon. Zoroaster was originally a Vedic priest.
Greek and Pagan Gnostics, whose beliefs are very similar to the Egyptian Hermetica.
Alexandrian Jews around 100 BC.
It’s hard to say how much the Jews were influenced by the Egyptians, as there is no record or evidence of them having been captive in Egypt. For example, there is no mention of the pyramids in the Bible. In addtion, if they were crossing the Red Sea to get to Israel, they would have been taking a huge detour. So the story of the flight from Egypt under Moses may well be allegory. The bare bones of that story would certainly match the stories of the Gnostics, which were Mystery stories and not meant to be taken literally.

The Greek influence on the Old Testament applies to the later books that were written after the Greeks conquered Jerusalem post Alexander the Great. And of course, we know that the first translation of the OT was by the Greeks, and so their influence would also have been added in that way.

In addition, there were more Jews in Alexandria during 1st century BC than anywhere else, including Jerusalem. Alexandria at this time would have been a veritable melting pot of spiritual teachers including rabbis, Brahmins and Greek Stoics. So many of the later books of the OT, including the Apocrypha, would have had this influence.

How I’ve connected the Greek and Pagan Gnostic stories to the Vedas is this - the story at the heart of the Mystery stories is that of a descending Godman who rescues a fallen Goddess from the Underworld. In the Rig-veda, Indra descends to rescue Sarama from the caves of the Panis.

So I hope this overview gives some idea of my thinking and I’d be interested to hear if anyone else has any views on it.

satay
31 March 2006, 10:18 AM
namaste Gill,

Thanks for posting this nice overview. This quotation of yours is very interesting.

Zoroaster was originally a Vedic priest

What makes you say that zoroaster was a vedic priest?

satay

Singhi Kaya
04 April 2006, 07:40 AM
Does anyone know about the story of Jajati and his 2 sons whom he circumcised, outlawed from the vedas and send outside bharat. They then worshipped lord shiva and got the belssing that their decendants will come back and rule the vedic people and insult the vedic dharma. Shiva later reduced the timeline of this terrible "baradan". does it appear in bhabiswa puran or Yogini tantra. The decendants of the sons of Jajati were called jews. Since then christians and islam has ruled us (or shall I say rules now?) and have inflicted terrible insult on the vedic dharma.

Needless to say I believe in this story. The rise of abrahamic religions has a basis, it's a revenge against the spirtualists for their injustice to others and forgetting their duties.

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 01:29 PM
From Stephen Knapp’s Proof of Vedic Culture....


In the Rig-veda (10.63.1) Manu is the foremost of kings and seers. Manu and his family were survivors of the world flood, as mentioned in the Shatapatha Brahmana (1.8.1). Thus, a new beginning for the human race came from him, and all of humanity are descendants from Manu.

The Artharva-veda (19.39.8) mentions where his ship descended in the Himalayas. One temple that signifies the location of where his ship first touched land after the flood is in Northern India in the hills of Manalli. His important descendants are the Pauravas, Ayu, Nahusha and Yayati.

From Yayati came the five Vedic clans:


the Puru tribe, connected with the Yamuna and Ganges region. The Rig-vedic people who developed Vedic culture in north central India and the Punjab along the river Saraswati (Rig-veda 7.96.2). Became the Paurava dynasty.
the Anu tribe, related to the north, to Punjab, as well as Bengal and Bihar. Mainly southern Kashmir along the Parushni (modern day Ravi) River (Rig-veda 7.18.13) and spread over western Asia developing the various Iranian cultures. Became the Greek dynasty.
the Druhyu tribe, related to the west and northwest, such as Ghandara (present day Kandahar) and Afghanistan. They spread over the northwest of the Punjab and Kashmir, and also spread across Europe as the Druids or the Celts. A first group went north-west and developed the proto-Germanic dialect, and another group travelled further south and developed the proto-Hellenic and Italic-Celtic dialects. Other Druhyu tribes included the Pramshus in western Bihar and Ikshvakus of northern Uttar Pradesh. Became known as the Bhoja dynasty.
the Turvashas tribe – related to India’s south-east, Bengal, Bihar and Orissa and are the ancestors of the Dravidians and the Yavanas. From Turvashu came the Turk dynasty
the Yadu tribe – related to the south or southwest, Gujarat and Rajasthan, from Mathura to Dwaraka and Somnath. Became known as the Lunar dynasty (also known as Yadavas)All but the Purus are known to have fallen from Vedic dharma, and various wars in the Puranas were with these groups.

This is further substantiated in the Mahabharata which mentions several provinces of southern Europe and Persia that were once connected with the culture. The Adi-parva chapter (174.38) describes the province of Pullinda (Greece) as having been conquered by Bhimasena and Sahadeva, two of the Pandava brothers.

The Sabha-parva and Bhisma-parva sections of the Mahabharata mention the provincce of Abira, situated near what once was the Saraswati river in ancient Sind. The Abhiras are said to have been warriors who left India out of fear of Lord Parashurama and hid themselves in the Caucasion hills between the Black and Caspian Seas.

Another province mentioned in the Mahabharata (Adi-parva 85.34) is that of the Yavanas (Turks) who were so named for being descendants of Maharaja (King) Yavana (Turvasu), one of the sons of Maharaja Yayati, as previously explained. They also gave up Vedic culture and became Mlecchas. They fought in the battle of Kuruksetra against the Pandavas and on behalf of Duryodhana and lost. However, it was predicted that they would one day return to conquer Bharata-varsa (India) and, indeed, this came to pass. Muhammed Ghori later attacked and conquered parts of India on behalf of Islam from the Abhira and Yavana or Turkish countries. Thus, we can see that these provinces in the area of Greece and Turkey (and the countries in between there and India) were once part of the Vedic civilisation and had at one time not only political and cultural ties, but also ancestral connections.

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 05:04 PM
namaste Gill,

Thanks for posting this nice overview. This quotation of yours is very interesting.


What makes you say that zoroaster was a vedic priest?

satay

Sorry, Satay. Just noticed that you asked this question.

I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where right now, but I'll think about it) that Zoroaster was originally a Vedic priest who, one day, so the story goes, was standing in an ice cold river doing his regular ablutions when he had a blinding inspiration that the whole Vedic religion was corrupt, and that he should reform it. So he turned the Vedic devas into the bad guys and the asuras into the good guys, and a few other things as well, but basically the whole of Zoroastrianism, particularlly the Gathas, are similar in language and concept to the Rig-veda.

Mohammed too, came from a long line of Vedic priests in the family of the Kurus, those who were defeated by the Pandavas in the Mahabharata war, and who moved westwards after that. He also rejected the Vedic practises and rituals as corrupt, although he kept the Shiva linga at the Ka'aba. The word Ka'aba comes from Garbha, the inner sanctum of the Hindu temple.

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 09:59 AM
Gill so the shiv ling is there in mecca square right ?

How about the Tejyo mahal under the taj mahal.

satay
06 April 2006, 11:17 AM
I have heard about the shiv lingum in Mecca but what is Tejyo mahal?

satay

Gill Harley
06 April 2006, 11:24 AM
More from Stephen Knapp, to answer your question Satay:


"We have all heard how the Taj Mahal, which is considered one of the great wonders of the world, was built as the preeminent expression of a man's love for a wife. That it was built by emperor Shah Jahan in commemoration of his wife Mumtaz. However, in our continuous effort to get to the truth, we have recently acquired some very important documents and information. There is evidence that the Taj Mahal was never built by Shah Jahan. Some say the Taj Mahal pre-dates Shah Jahan by several centuries and was originally built as a Hindu or Vedic temple/palace complex. Shah Jahan merely acquired it from its previous owner, the Hindu King Jai Singh. "


You can read more here: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm

And here's an interesting web page about the Ka'aba in Mecca.
http://f24.parsimony.net/cgi-bin/message-view.cgi?Nummer=54389&ThreadNummer=64775&Beitrag=64786

satay
06 April 2006, 11:33 AM
neat! thanks for the links.

satay

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 11:40 AM
Gill, I have visited stephen knapp's site and read about shiva temple tejyomahal. he has some pics of taj mahal. it doesnt convince me that it was a shiva temple. I did not do a detail analysis. but just saw it few times. I know stephen knapp would utter something just like that. I have also read something about PN OAK who has written a lot about this issue. allegedly government of india is hiding something in one portion of the building.

Gill Harley
06 April 2006, 01:11 PM
I agree with you that sometimes Stephen Knapp gets things wrong. You have to read his book 'Proof of Vedic Culture's Global Existence' like a swan, sieving fact from wishful thinking. PN Oak, too, I believe, is quite a nationalist, so one has to treat what he says too, with caution, and test it against one's own research.

However, from my own research, I do believe both the Taj Mahal story and the Ka'aba one, as there is a lot of other evidence other than what Knapp and Oak have picked up. It also makes sense from a global history point of view.

I believe that I'm right in saying that that the Moslems have completely wiped out Arab history preceding Mohammed's birth, so it's very difficult to find out exactly what went on, although not impossible.

This is a much better link than the one I gave previously on the Ka'aba. I was at work then, but now I'm at home I can find my own research and share it with you. See what you think. Here's the link: http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0001/ET25-5336.html

and here's an excerpt...:


"Thus we can see that Vedic religion and culture were present in Pre-Islamic Arabia as early as 1850 B.C., and definitely present at the time of Mohammed's birth.

"In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds "Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic religion. On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed by Muhammad and his followers. Here are some of the Vedic deities and their original Sanskrit names:

Arabic/Sanskrit/English:

Al-Dsaizan,Shani,Saturn/Al-Ozi or Ozza,Oorja,Divine energy/Al-Sharak,Shukra,Venus/Auds,Uddhav-Bag,Bhagwan,God/Bajar,Vajra,Indra's thunderbolt/Kabar,Kuber, God of wealth/Dar,Indra,King of gods/Dua Shara,Deveshwar, Lord of the gods,Habal,Bahubali,Lord of strength,Madan,Madan,God of love/Manaph, Manu,First Man/Manat, Somnath, Lord Shiv/Obodes,Bhoodev, Earth/Razeah,Rajesh,King of kings/Saad,Siddhi,God of Luck/Sair,Shree,Goddess of wealth/Sakiah,Shakrah,Indra/ Sawara,Shiva-Eshwar, God Shiva/Yauk, Yaksha, Divine being/Wad,Budh,Mercury/

"The Kaba temple which was misappropriated and captured by Muslims was originally an International Vedic Shrine. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareswar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated in Mecca. An important clue to this fact is that Muslims call this holy precint Haram which is a deviation of the Sanskrit term Hariyam, i.e. the precint of Lord Hari alias Lord Vishnu. The relevant stanza reads:
"Ekam Padam Gayayantu MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam Tritiyam Sthapitam Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau" "

Hope this helps.

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 02:02 PM
are the foot prints still there and the 360 idols still safe ?

satay
06 April 2006, 02:20 PM
I agree with you that sometimes Stephen Knapp gets things wrong. You have to read his book 'Proof of Vedic Culture's Global Existence' like a swan, sieving fact from wishful thinking. PN Oak, too, I believe, is quite a nationalist, so one has to treat what he says too, with caution, and test it against one's own research.

However, from my own research, I do believe both the Taj Mahal story and the Ka'aba one, as there is a lot of other evidence other than what Knapp and Oak have picked up. It also makes sense from a global history point of view.

I believe that I'm right in saying that that the Moslems have completely wiped out Arab history preceding Mohammed's birth, so it's very difficult to find out exactly what went on, although not impossible.

This is a much better link than the one I gave previously on the Ka'aba. I was at work then, but now I'm at home I can find my own research and share it with you. See what you think. Here's the link: http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0001/ET25-5336.html

and here's an excerpt...:


"Thus we can see that Vedic religion and culture were present in Pre-Islamic Arabia as early as 1850 B.C., and definitely present at the time of Mohammed's birth.

"In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds "Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic religion. On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed by Muhammad and his followers. Here are some of the Vedic deities and their original Sanskrit names:

Arabic/Sanskrit/English:

Al-Dsaizan,Shani,Saturn/Al-Ozi or Ozza,Oorja,Divine energy/Al-Sharak,Shukra,Venus/Auds,Uddhav-Bag,Bhagwan,God/Bajar,Vajra,Indra's thunderbolt/Kabar,Kuber, God of wealth/Dar,Indra,King of gods/Dua Shara,Deveshwar, Lord of the gods,Habal,Bahubali,Lord of strength,Madan,Madan,God of love/Manaph, Manu,First Man/Manat, Somnath, Lord Shiv/Obodes,Bhoodev, Earth/Razeah,Rajesh,King of kings/Saad,Siddhi,God of Luck/Sair,Shree,Goddess of wealth/Sakiah,Shakrah,Indra/ Sawara,Shiva-Eshwar, God Shiva/Yauk, Yaksha, Divine being/Wad,Budh,Mercury/

"The Kaba temple which was misappropriated and captured by Muslims was originally an International Vedic Shrine. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareswar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated in Mecca. An important clue to this fact is that Muslims call this holy precint Haram which is a deviation of the Sanskrit term Hariyam, i.e. the precint of Lord Hari alias Lord Vishnu. The relevant stanza reads:
"Ekam Padam Gayayantu MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam Tritiyam Sthapitam Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau" "

Hope this helps.

Amazing! I thought that islam came out of judaism, clearly I thought wrong. :)

satay

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 02:26 PM
Gill, the swan you are mentioning is not the swan we have today. the swan aka Anna Paravai ( Annam the bird ) is mentioned in tamil literature. it is extinct. it can separate milk out of mixture of milk and water. however i am impressed with your knowledge.

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 02:27 PM
Satay, islam is a cult. not a religion. if you visit faithfreedom.org you will know that it doesnt have any facets of any philosophies of dharma or jesus or moses.

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 02:37 PM
Gill, however certain things PN Oak says are convincing like he says there are five shiva temples listed one is missing which is tejyeswarar. tejya means beauty or tejas or handsome. so I faintly get an idea. i have been shown the pictures of knapp's photos on tajmahal by friends and also seen them on site, but i donno how the photo is refuting that . I am not calling baloney. it is just that steve hasnt explained it well enough. One thing always sounded fishy to me since the pre teens was when i learned that shah jahans wife was called mumtaj mahal. why woud someone call a person as mahal ? that really didnt fit quite. there is also saying that radio carbon dating of the building material says they were 300 yrs older than the age of shahjahan. this was done by some newyork based researcher.

Singhi Kaya
06 April 2006, 04:48 PM
are the foot prints still there and the 360 idols still safe ?

Nope only one remain - the symbol of allah. It's the shiva linga of kaba which since last 1400 years has been worshipped in mlecchachara - by human salaiva instead of water. All other idols, mohammad destroyed when he stromed mecca. The story of mohammad and islam is a bone chilling one. I wonder what will happen of the man in rebirth :rolleyes: - but then he was 'nimitta matrang'.
But undoubtedly the greatest asurik mind in known history. sere genius.

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 05:48 PM
singhi, so one foot print remain or 1 idol is still there ? i didnt quite get you on that. so the big building is one of vishnu's form ? Please explain

rcscwc
06 August 2009, 05:17 AM
namaste Gill,

Thanks for posting this nice overview. This quotation of yours is very interesting.


What makes you say that zoroaster was a vedic priest?

satayBecause he was.

He was the illegitimate son of Surya and Nikshubha. He and his brother Veshishta, legitimate son, were priests of Agni till he driven out by his half brother. Zurushtha is Jaruth of RV.

Parsis, the only true zoroshtrians too believe this.

atanu
06 August 2009, 05:47 AM
Because he was.
He was the illegitimate son of Surya and Nikshubha. He and his brother Veshishta, legitimate son, were priests of Agni till he driven out by his half brother. Zurushtha is Jaruth of RV.

Parsis, the only true zoroshtrians too believe this.


Namaste,

Can we learn more of Jaruth from Rig Veda please?

Om

rcscwc
07 August 2009, 01:24 AM
Jaruth is mentioned about half a dozen times. In one place Vashishata even prays for his destruction. The story of his birth is in an addendum to Sama Veda. More can be found in the PARSI scriptures. Please do not confuse Parsis with the westren Zoroshterians or Mithraists.

Mithra, btw, is Mitra of RV. Friend. Also known as Surya, the Sun. Parsis are worshippers of Fire and Sun, believe it or not, they too call them Agni and Mitra, not MitHra.

atanu
07 August 2009, 07:25 AM
Jaruth is mentioned about half a dozen times. In one place Vashishata even prays for his destruction. The story of his birth is in an addendum to Sama Veda. More can be found in the PARSI scriptures. Please do not confuse Parsis with the westren Zoroshterians or Mithraists.

Mithra, btw, is Mitra of RV. Friend. Also known as Surya, the Sun. Parsis are worshippers of Fire and Sun, believe it or not, they too call them Agni and Mitra, not MitHra.

Hello,

But I see that Zarasthustra sang Vahishto Ishti Gatha (Best Beloved). RC there may be something wrong in all your theories. It's peculiar that Zarasthustra who you say is Jaruth and who was killed by Vashista sang for beloved Vashista.


Burn up all malice with those flames, O Agni, wherewith of old thou burntest up Jarutha, [Rig Veda 7.1.7]; "O Agni, Vasistha kindles you - destroy the malignant Jarutha. ---- [Rig Veda 7.9.6]; and Agni rejoiced the car of him who praised him, and from the waters burnt away jarutha.


Is burning away jarutha from waters not chitta suddhi? .


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
07 August 2009, 09:30 AM
Friends will find good mental stimulation from various theories.

http://indiaculture.net/talk/messages/65/9233.html?1239878966

Jetavan
09 September 2010, 06:38 PM
"Jarutha" means "making old".

"Zarathustra" possibly stems from "zarant" and "ustra", "zarant" possibly meaning "old" and "ustra" meaning "camel".

Adhvagat
16 March 2011, 10:59 PM
Bumping this gem of a thread.

Guys, I think case studies like this are extremely important so people know the origins of each religion, what came from what, so points of philosophical validity and tradition can be made with more maturity (so to say) and property.

I think it's pretty astounding that people follow religions without even having the interest to research its origin and development. That's not religious inclination, that's ad antiquitatem.

The informations presented here also put everything into perspective and in my case it makes me wonder: Why follow anything other than Sanatana Dharma? It makes no sense.

Om Tat Sat

BryonMorrigan
17 March 2011, 08:24 AM
Regarding the origins of Judaism, I can't comment too much, as I'm not that familiar with it. However, I will note that most recent scholarship that I've seen suggests that Judaism was originally Henotheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism), and therefore accepted the idea that there were other gods besides their own Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh), but that they did not worship them. I seem to remember some scholar stating that Yahweh was originally a "war god," which is certainly reasonable, considering the fact that the Old Testament is full of "his" exhortations like this:

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you." (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Now, in regards to Mithras, mentioned earlier as being the Vedic Mitra...Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. actually wrote a couple essays on the modern theories that most of Christianity is "borrowed" from the Roman Cult of Mithras. Here's a link to one of them: "A Study of Mithraism," by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (http://lam.mithra.free.fr/doc/A_Study_of_Mirthraism.pdf)

Mithras worship was far more popular in ancient Rome than Christianity, and had become the majority religion in the Empire...until Christianity was FORCED upon the people. Many of the modern Christian rituals and holidays were directly copied from Mithraism, as it was much easier to just "adopt"
the extremely popular aspects of it...than tell the public they could no longer do them.

My favorite example is the "Dies Natalis Solis Invictus," or "Holy Day of the Unconquered Sun." (Mithras was often called by the Romans "Sol Invictus," or "The Unconquered Sun.") It was celebrated each year with a huge festival and gift-giving. When, you ask? On December 25th! Even according to the Christian calendar, their "Jesus" was born nowhere NEAR December. They adopted the Mithraic festival, and just changed the name of it!

Oh, I could go on all day about Mithraism and what-not...

smaranam
17 March 2011, 09:02 AM
Namaste,

Any mention of the Jews who fled to/lived in Kashmir on this thread ? "The Lost Sheep" Jesus referred to ?

Also, Jesus's association with King Satyavan or some such, and munis in the Himalayan belt betN ages 12 to 32, before his preaching.

"Who are you ?"
"Isha-putra (Son of Ishwar) , kumAri-garbha (born to [Mary] the kumArikA)"
- Bhavishya PurAn.

Well, this is slightly off-topic.

Jai Shri KrushNa

sanjaya
17 March 2011, 09:21 AM
I know there are Jews living in India to this day (the Bnei Manashe tribe, I believe) who emigrated before the time of Jesus. Not sure there's any reference to them in the Bible, though.

Ramakrishna
23 March 2011, 11:28 PM
Namaste,

I think by now it is pretty much established fact that Judaism (and therefore all the Abrahamic religions) developed out of the ancient Israelite polytheistic religion. The people just gradually chose to worship one deity, Yahweh, out of an entire pantheon of deities as "the one true God". Recently it has also become established that Yahweh had a wife who was worshipped alongside him.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42154769/ns/technology_and_science-science/?fb_ref=story_header&fb_source=profile_oneline

Jai Sri Ram

charlebs
07 April 2011, 10:16 AM
vedic knowledge slowly crept into the european countries through invaders and inspirationists and bards.
well who knows, I think they calculated pretty much everything on their own, and their "avatars" were close to the true avatars as well.

but I think white (or whatever colour we used to be) people were still deluded with power as they got a certain stage of enlightenment.

henrikhankhagnell
23 May 2011, 02:43 AM
what about this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgnrJd0PmWs

Adhvagat
25 May 2011, 09:26 PM
Not sure it's historically and etymologically correct, but I found this when I was looking at the etymological root of the hebrew word 'shivah' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_(Judaism)):


THE HINDU AND VEGETARIAN ORIGINS OF JUDAISM

The Earliest Jews Named their Children and their Cities
and Locations in General after the Names of Hindu Deities Commanding Vegetarianism.

The Ancient Hebrew Language as Revelation

Numerous scholars of ancient Hebrew have stated directly as well as implied that the Hebrew language itself is a revelation, a revelation that the use of the language cannot obliterate. The ancient Hebrew words contain basic significances that cannot be denied, no matter how the words are used. And the fact is that the words themselves demonstrate that Hinduism is the origin of Judaism, and that the original Jews shared the same pantheon as the Hindus.

Though those rewriting the original Jewish scriptures could insert new norms, radically different from those that originally existed, the language they used to do so nonetheless contradicts what they did. How so? The names given to Hebrew children in the earliest days of Judaism, the names given to their villages, of their religious feast days, are the names of Hindu personalities or deities who denounced animal sacrifices.

The scriptures of the Old Testament in general are full of the names of well known Hindu deities and personalities, such as Uma, Bala and Kali, consorts of Shiva. The warrior Arjuna from the Bhagavadgita is there. The Old Testament pervasively contains the name of the Hindu deity Ramah who is also the epic hero in the Hindu epic, the Mahabharata. Numerous Hindu names such as Isaiah and Isaac contain the Isa root. Isa is a name of Shiva. And Oshea, or Hosea, is a transliteration of Osseo, another name of Shiva. The name of Kali, the mate of Shiva is used to describe Kal Israel, or all Israel, and is the the root of Kal Law, meaning bride. The earliest Israelites regarded themselves as brides of their deity, much as Christian monastics regard themselves as the brides of Christ. Asura (Asherah) simply meant Almighty God in the earliest days of Hinduism. The Asherah shrines destroyed by the heretical cattleman cult were the vegetarian shrines of Hindu deities. Kana (Chanah) is a shortened form of Kannan, the Tamil Hindu name of Krishna). Kannan is also the source for the land of Canaan. Shiva also known as Sheba, Seba, Saba and Sheva exists throughout the Old Testament. And concepts such as that of the divine name, or divine utterance, Naamah, also pervaded ancient Judaism as we can see by the fact that places and people are named after Naamah. The veneration of Shiva was called Sabeanism, Saba, Seba, and Sheba being names of Shiva. All the above Hindu deities teach vegetarianism and compassion for all creatures, though minor sects in India still claim that their carnivorism is sanctioned by Shiva and Kali in their terrible aspects.

Sabeanism: The Universal Religion in Ancient Times

Members of these minor sects in ancient times were exiled to the western hemisphere, and ironically had their day of prominence in the human and animal sacrificing sects of the Aztecs. The Aztecs and Maya shared deities, and Kundalini, a term familiar to all those practicing yoga, is the name of a mother vegetation goddess among the Aztecs. The name Shiva was name was translated as Sui va or Zuiva. The names of Shiva Is, Isa, Isana, and Oseo were transliterated into Ix (pronounced eesh), Itza, Itzamma, and Oc. Temples of sacrificed were named teocalli and cities such as Caliquen were named after Cali and the Kanna deity of both the Tamil Hindus and Israelites. The Cali in California, a land previously owned by Mexico, is likewise derived from this goddess' name. The name of the Maya is in fact derived from the Goddess Maya, originally a goddess of creation and later a goddess of the illusory. Maya is a consort of Shiva. Quetzalcoatl, the Plumed Serpent, culture hero, and avatar, forbid animal sacrifices as well as human sacrificed, and therefore he and his vegetarian following were persecuted by the Aztecs.

THE ORIGINAL VEGETARIAN BIBLE

THE EXISTENCE OF THESE VEGETARIAN DEITIES AND PERSONALITIES

MESHES PERFECTLY WITH THE VEGETARIAN COVENANT OF GENESIS 1: 29-30.

The fact that Jews long after the Exodus continued to name their children and locations after Hindu deities supports Esdras' contention in 2 Esdras, that the earliest patriarchs taught the same thing as the later prophets, namely, vegetarianism. Coupled with the recognition that the tradition described as Tsabaism, Sabeanism, or Shaivism was the dominant culture in the ancient world, along with the vegetarian covenant that is indisputably affirmed in the first chapter of Genesis, along with the fact that the lineage of Noah created the vegetarian cultures of Ancient Ethiopia, Kush, and Sheba, we have more than sufficient grounds to demonstrate that it was the vegetarian tradition that ruled the earliest days of Judaism, and not the carnivorous tradition demanding animal sacrifices. The Jewish vegetarian tradition is firmly established in the very first chapter of Genesis, especially in Genesis 1: 29-30, which commands vegetarianism for all creatures, not just humans, and which thereby defines the moral and dietary parameters of paradise, as a non-violent place where the sacredness of all creatures is affirmed, and where no creatures are harmed. Even orthodox Jewish rabbis admit that God's original dietary covenant commanded vegetarianism, and they claim that the covenant sanctioning carnivorism occurred after the Deluge. It will, I contend, easily be seen that the passages sanctioning carnivorism after the Deluge are among the most sloppily rewritten and contradiction filled scriptures in the Old Testament.

The victors write not only history, but the scriptures,
in order to suit their own immoral standards.

There is of course a long line of biblical students and scholars who have stated the same thing, that scriptures all over the world have been revised by those in power. Constantine exiled dissenting bishops to assure that the bishops assembled to put together what we now know as the New Testament would contain teachings favorable to Rome, teachings for example affirming that God sanctioned the most horrible institution of all time to humans, namely slavery itself, an institution which anyone with an iota of understanding and compassion would understand would be totally contrary to the notion of an all-loving God, or to the teaching that one should "love your neighbor as your self." The fact that orthodox carnivorous Christians, Jews, and Muslims would accept both of these teachings as divine and not see the contradictions--this fact in itself--indicates the deep degree of mental and moral deficiency that is contributed to by the eating of flesh. There is absolutely no way that slavery and loving one's neighbor as one's self can be seen as not contradictory. The slave is property of another person. One who is loved as one's neighbor is an equal.

Once one has examined the overwhelming amount of evidence demonstrating the Hindu origins of Judaism, then numerous other passages in the Old Testament that are universally acknowledged as being filled with contradictions or problems may be seen for what they are, obvious revisions of the original Vegetarian Bible posited by Abegg, Wise and Cook in their edition of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is not as difficult as some think to prove conclusively that this was so, that an original Vegetarian Bible was revised to sanction the ulterior motives of the rich to to derive profit from the animal sacrifices and power from the institution of slavery.

Source: http://aumshalom.com/hindu.htm

Tikkun Olam
05 October 2011, 05:06 PM
Well, I'm Jewish and I happened to stumble upon this forum. Maybe I can add a different perspective to this thread.

Judaism is actually a lot older than 500 BC. Zoroastrianism had a bigger influence on Christianity than it did on Judaism, with the later already with it's roots cemented for about 1000 years. There are groups of people such as the Samaritans who split from the mainstream Jews in 722 BC, and today they still have a Torah which is almost identical to the Hebrew Torah (with only one major disagreement). The are also the Cochin Jews of India, who split from the major Jewish community in 930 BC (and yes, there are descriptions in the Bible of Israelis meeting Indian Jews... there are still some left today). So just how old is it then?

To know where it came from, you have to understand that there are three parts to the religion- the Written Tradition, the Oral Tradition, and the Hidden Tradition. The Written is the Bible, which is what Christianity is largely based off of (it was developed in Rome after the Romans started translating and interpreting the Jewish texts).

The Oral is what was "left out" in writing to protect against people infringing on the religion (which the Romans tried to do). It was recited in Israeli schools and forced into memory until about 200 AD when the Jews were forced around the world and they were afraid the Oral Tradition would be lost, so they (with a bit of anxiety) finally wrote it down into a book called the Talmud. This is largely the basis for Islam (which was started by Muhammad, an Arab who was illiterate and couldn't read the text but was intimate to the Oral stories). Sometimes the stories have extra details, such as the one about Mount Sinai. While the Bible says the Jews were gathered at the mountain, the Talmud further describes the mountain being held over their heads. (Interestingly, this is how the story is also told in the Muslim book; "We [Allah] made a covenant with you [Children of Israel] and raised the Mount [Sinai] above you, saying: 'Grasp fervently [the Torah] what We [Allah] have given you, and bear in minds its precepts, that you may guard yourselves against evil'". [Qur'an, sura 2:65]).

The Hidden is the Kabbalah, which is the most spiritual of the texts, and was again only passed down orally until they were in "diaspera". So when they could no longer pass it from parent to child, it was written in a book known as the Zohar.

The most important for knowing the origins is the Oral Tradition. It gives the key to how old the religion really is. As I said, parts were left out in the Bible. One example is the Kosher slaughter. When Moses is talking to the Jews (as it's written), all he says about how to slaughter animals is , "as I have commanded thee" (Deut 12:21) There is no written description of how this is done- it was passed on orally, so that Jews all around the world today still know what this means and agree on what "as I have commanded" means. (Again, the Muslims slaughter animals in the same way, whereas the Christians do not).

A similar thing happens with tefillin. There is no written description of what this is. Moses again instructes, "You shall put these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall tie them for a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes." (Deut 11:18). It's only because of the oral tradition do we know WHAT we are wrapping around our arms and what we are placing between our eyes. It's tefillin; leather straps to remind us of bondage from Egypt, along with a box that is placed between the eyes. If there was ever a noncontinuous gap from the Egyptian Exodus to today, than this meaning would have been lost. It's a sing used as proof of unbroken tradition.

So I think it's fair to say that Judaism is effectively as old as the Exodus. When did that happen? There were two major exoduses recorded by the Egyptian Manetho. Manetho wasn't a nobody. He chronicled the Egyptian Pharaohs and placed them into the dynasties that people still use today. The early exodus he talked about was around 1550 BC, to Pharaoh Ahmose. The later one was around 1280 BC, to Ramesses II. Manetho himself attributed the Hebrew exodus to the later one, although his account is now assumed to be a fictional description to rise up propaganda against Israel. He claimed that Moses forced the Pharaoh out of Egypt, took the thrown for himself for 13 years, and than was later chased out by an 18 year old Ramesses and forced all the way to Jerusalem followed by a bunch of leprous and diseased people (the Jews). The Greeks also mentioned the exodus, but placed the time to the early one, which I would argue for, although I'm not going to go all into why now!




There is a fairly simple way to tell how old Judaism is, however, without going through all that- genetic testing. One oddity about the religion is that we have preserved the lineage of the High Priests, known as the Cohens. The Cohens are said to be the descendants of the first priest, Aaron, older brother to Moses. They are all over the world, and yes, even found in Samaritans and Indian Jews. DNA tests can trace the Y-chromosome of these people all around the world to known when they converge to a single male relative. It happens to be that we are now 106 generations separated from Aaron. A patriarchal generation is 34-35 years, which means Aaron was born around 1700 BC- 1600 BC. The Exodus happened when he was 83 years old- about 1550 BC. The same time you get from following the historical clues I wrote above. (It's nice when things line up like that).

So that's where it came from. The religion was the direct result of the Exodus that happened roughly 3500-3600 years ago. A good portion of the religion has to do with preserving this memory.

Mana
06 October 2011, 02:15 PM
Namasté Tikkun Olam,

Thank you for your most informative post; truly amazing the perspective your dharma gives you, such a wealth of historical record.

It is customary here to make a little auto introduction; over in the introductions part of the forum. (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15)

But I wish you in advance a warm welcome; Pleased to meet you.


praNAma

mana

Tikkun Olam
06 October 2011, 03:06 PM
Namasté Tikkun Olam,

Thank you for your most informative post; truly amazing the perspective your dharma gives you, such a wealth of historical record.

It is customary here to make a little auto introduction; over in the introductions part of the forum. (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15)

But I wish you in advance a warm welcome; Pleased to meet you.

Do you have a current word within Jewish Doctrine; that we could compare with the Sanskrit word "dharma"? I am fascinated!

praNAma

mana

Thanks for the welcome. I will be sure to give an introduction.

Although a single word doesn't come to mind, there is a very important sentence that I think works (which is the most important prayer in Judaism). It's called the Shema and it is said by Jews twice a day. It was whispered during various points in history such as the middle ages and the inquisitions when they didn't want anyone to hear, it's the traditional last words for a Jew, and the only thing Nazi soldiers reporting hearing when we were in the gas chambers.

In Hebrew;

Shema Yisrael, adonai elohenu, adonai echad.

And in English it translates to, "Listen O' Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One."

It is a statement of faith that this entity, some sort of "divinity" is a single unifying force in the universe, and it comes along with the belief that the good and righteous will end up standing firm while the evil will fall apart.

Mana
06 October 2011, 04:02 PM
Namasté All

This may seem a little off the cuff, but I cant help but to ask If there is a connection between the name; Torah, and the mathematical form the torus. Also of interest the Sanskrit word toraNa.

Any thoughts on this most welcome.

praNAma

mana

Tikkun Olam
06 October 2011, 04:20 PM
Namasté All

This may seem a little off the cuff, but I cant help but to ask If there is a connection between the name; Torah, and the mathematical form the torus. Also of interest the Sanskrit word toraNa.

Any thoughts on this most welcome.

praNAma

mana


I would like to say yes, but I doubt it. Torus is a Latin word, so it is much younger than the Hebrew. Torah is usually translated as the "law". I don't know the origins of the word torus, but it's probably a coincidence rather than the Romans making a symbolic statement.

(Although that symbolism would not be lost, because the Torah is broken into separate portions that are read on the same week every year, and after the new year, we beginning from the start again. It IS a circular motion, kind of like a torus).

What's torana?

Mana
08 October 2011, 10:15 AM
Namasté Tikkun Olam

Interestingly dharma can be translated a law.

Torah = dharma : to all intents and purposes.

Within the philosophy of sanantana dharma, we are taught to rely on several forms of information, not just scriptural. To understand how and why we formulate the beliefs that we formulate.
This is found in the writings of Patanjali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pata%C3%B1jali).

Is there any such ides within Judaism?

Shema Yisrael, adonai elohenu, adonai echad.

... Beautiful ...

One is a very important concept in Kashmir Shaivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism).

praNAma

mana

Mana
08 October 2011, 11:04 AM
What's torana?

Namasté Tikkun Olam

Thank you for your kind response, might I ask you if the Jewish calendar is lunar?

toraNa is an interesting Sanskrit word, to my mind its roots are in astrology. Lunar based the cycles predicative of the eclipse.

तोरण = toraNa = festooned decorations over doorways.
= decoration of an entrance.
= neck (see; Taurus, astronomy).
= mound near a bathing place.
= arch, portal, arched doorway, (Buddhism)
= Triangle supporting a large balance.
= ziva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism) (God)

The gold Ring, was probably used from an early date to lead the bull by its nose. Rendering a somewhat savage beast tamed.

The gold ring in the Hindu religion may be considered a reference to the Sahasrara Chakra ... a door way.

Abraham requested that his people stop the worship of the Bull on his return from the mountain. (ziva)


I will say that I am no expert, just passionate and rather nosey! I have no great knowlege of Sanskrit and lean heavily on the use of a dictionary for my interpretation so I rely on the good faith of others for translation. I offer these thoughts to you humbly, and look forwards to your reflection.

My passion for knowledge of humanity steams from an experience at the age of about 19, which to me was highly spiritual.

praNAma

mana

Tikkun Olam
08 October 2011, 12:01 PM
Yes, the Hebrew calendar is lunar with months alternating between 29 and 30 days to correspond to the 29.5 days it takes the moon to revolve around the Earth. We also count the days by nightfall (not by midnight). This means the Hebrew calendar is shorter than the solar calendar by a hand full of days, so a "leap year" in the Hebrew calendar is one that adds in a whole extra month, not just a day!

I think the name toraNa is probably again just a phonetic coincidence. Astrology is actually strictly forbidden by the Torah. It is seen as a form of idol worship, alongside things like fortune tellers, tarot, witchcraft, tattoos, and so on.

When you say Abraham above, I think you mean Moses? There is the story that when Moses ascended Mount Sinai to get the tablets with the Ten Commandments on them, the Hebrews melted down their jewelry to make an idol of a Golden Calf (a cow). When Moses returned, he was furious with them, smashed the tablets, and melted the idol into the sand. He was angry because one of the commandments was to not make a graven image of anything. No idols, no statues, no amulets- nothing. The entire Jewish nation is said to have heard the voice of God giving them this commandment, so Moses couldn't understand why a group of people who just, 40 days earlier, heard God tell them directly into their own ears "Don't do that", went ahead and did it anyway.

The Torah is law that is supposed to be followed be Jews, not by everyone. It makes that clear. It is not universally mandated law, but seen more like a contract signed by the Jewish people promising to follow it. What we do believe is universal, however, is the statement in the Shema, which is a proclamation of "oneness" and a deeper level of connection of all things.

Mana
09 October 2011, 04:00 AM
Namasté Tikkun Olam,

Thank you for your informative response, you are quite right, I was referring to Moses and not Abraham. Please excuse my ignorance.

Is not the very re-sighting of your scripts in concordance with the moon, the very basis of Astronomy? Is this an attempt to steady an intrinsically chaotic system through the use of Astronomy? To stop it being used for personal gain?

Could it be that this is reserved as a higher practices; for the eyes of your Rabbi only?

It is interesting that you speak of phonetic coincidence as a reason for similarity between words. My understanding of the nature of time would say that even if this is the case, they are still connected.

Interestingly modern research in to the functioning of the genetic word or code, mirrors this notion perfectly, see epigenetics, and that words them selves, are stored in our long term memory by the process of neuro epigenetics. That nothing is ever written in stone, as stone its self in time is fluid, just as our understanding of what stone is; is also fluid.

Some interesting Sanskrit words for your consideration.

We must remember that sanskrit is originally a verbal tradition above all, born in a cradle of civilisation; attempts to record its sounds may well vary especialy when we arrive at similar words in the the same alphabet, via two different scripts, or routes (devengari and Hebrew) from "arguably" one verbal base. Just as wave formations are observed in quantum effect, they are observed in language and genetics.

अभ्रम = abhrama = clear, steady, composure, linear.
अभ्रमाला = abhramAIA = Line or succession of clouds (weather front)
अभ्रमय = abhramAyA = hidden in clouds.

भ्रम = bhrama = error, spring, mistake, circle, whirling flame, fountain, eddy.
भ्रमण = bhramaNa = Orbit, turning around, unsteadiness, revolution.

सिद्ध = siddha= fact, ready, proven, principle.
सिद्धान्त = siddhanta = doctorine, principle, theory, rule.

Might I humbly ask if you have specific prayers for specific times or moments within the lunar calendar?

I am quite fascinated by your customs of which I am regretfully so ignorant! The jumps we must make to adjust our calenders remind us of just how non linear, the law of nature is.

धर्म = dharma = Nature, manner, law, custom, usage, morality, attribute, moral merit, mark. (This is a very long list).

The keener our eye becomes the more detail we see, the further we look, finally we realise the non linear nature of all. That this is One.

बिन्दु = Bindu = ΔT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94T)

You must, please; excuse my tangents, I am a very non linear thinker!

If we fight against non linearity the spring coil retains energy until it snaps, if we allow for chaos well, there is adharma (the opposite of dharma) until dharma grows. Quite a conundrum.

... Does God play with dice?

Thank you kindly for your thoughts.

praNAma

mana

Tikkun Olam
09 October 2011, 05:39 AM
Is not the very re-sighting of your scripts in concordance with the moon, the very basis of Astronomy? Is this an attempt to steady an intrinsically chaotic system through the use of Astronomy? To stop it being used for personal gain?

Could it be that this is reserved as a higher practices; for the eyes of your Rabbi only?

The lunar calendar is only used to keep track of time, but the moon is not worshiped.

There is a difference between astronomy and astrology. It is astrology that is forbidden. Not because it is reserved for special people, but because it is believed to be a false practice (that you can't tell what happens to someone on a certain day based on their astrological sign for example).


We must remember that sanskrit is originally a verbal tradition above all, born in a cradle of civilisation; attempts to record its sounds may well vary especialy when we arrive at similar words in the the same alphabet, via two different scripts, or routes (devengari and Hebrew) from "arguably" one verbal base. Just as wave formations are observed in quantum effect, they are observed in language and genetics.I know Hebrew is a language in the Canaanite family of languages, which go all the way back to Sumeria in the cradle of civilization. It is also true that for a time Hebrew was only verbal. There are some 5000 year old Egyptian hieroglyphics written in the Hebrew language before there was a Hebrew alphabet. So it is possible some of these have the same origins.


Might I humbly ask if you have specific prayers for specific times or moments within the lunar calendar?We do for specific times, but not for cosmological reasons. They are related to special holidays to commemorate events. Some of the holidays include Passover (for the exodus from Egypt), Purim (rebellion against the Persian genocide), and Chanukah (the war with the Greeks).

I will note that anything based on the stars or the planets solely is not considered important. One of the major distinctions between us and the other ancient religions at the time is that we turned away from the stars out in space.


If we fight against non linearity the spring coil retains energy until it snaps, if we allow for chaos well, there is adharma (the opposite of dharma) until dharma grows. Quite a conundrum.

... Does God play with dice?

Thank you kindly for your thoughts.

praNAma

manaHah, well Albert Einstein said God does NOT play with dice! I am not sure myself. I just believe we all have free-will and the universe will keep on doing what it does.

///EDIT/// I think there is more I can add about this whole topic. There is a great collection of Jewish views of astrology here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology

A relevant quote is;
"Faith and trust in God are partners, since one who believes in an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God must also believe that He will provide for His faithful. Therefore, one should trust in God and not be overly concerned about the future....Therefore, one should not seek to ascertain the future by fortune telling, astrology or other superstitions. Concerning this, The Torah commands us, "You must remain totally faithful to God your Lord" (Deut. 18:13), which some authorities count as a positive commandment."

And another one;
It is quite extraordinary that Maimonides...virtually alone in the Middle Ages, rejected belief in astrology. In a letter to the rabbis of Southern France he distinguishes between astronomy as a true science and astrology which he deems to be sheer superstition. Many hundreds of years passed until the Western world came to the same conclusion. Maimonides boldly declares that in Judaism a person's fate is determined by G-d alone, not by the stars.

There are also much older references to it that you can see on that pages. They quote from the Torah, the "lost books" of the Bible, and the Talmud (which was the Rabbis' recording of the Oral Tradition). All of them agree- putting your faith in the cosmos is incompatible with Judaism.

Tikkun Olam
09 October 2011, 12:18 PM
In another post you have questioned the historical existence of Jesus. What is the historical proof that Moses existed ? ... or even if he existed, all things that he said was not a craetion of his own figment of imagination ? I am not saying to denigrate Abrahimic religions. I am trying to make you see the larger picture. Did you ever think that if Laws of Moses was really from God why it was given to only certain group of people and not made public to the entire mankind ? Why should God differentiate between meat of one animal or the other animal ? Why can't God feel the pains of hapless animals which have been declared as "fit for eating" ... or why did He give them the ability too feel pain at all ? What was their fault ? Can such God be Called God in real sense ? You will have no logical answers. Yet we believe that your way is good in its own way.

OM

You asked me about Moses. The Jews point out that we didn't believe in Moses just because he said so, we did it because we as an entire nation heard the voice of God. Every single Jew was gathered around the mountain when they heard the voice give the the Ten Commandments. The is mentioned, and re-emphasized, and re-emphasized again and again.

For example, the Torah says;

Not with our forefathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, all of us, who are here alive today. Face to face, the Lord spoke with you at the mountain out of the midst of the fire. (Deut 5:3-4)

Mana
09 October 2011, 12:38 PM
Namasté Tikkun Olam,

Thank you for your honest reply, please understand that I am not trying to prove any point here or trick you, I am genuinely interested in your culture. I am new to the idea of words "Sanantana dharma" and am trying to gain as full a picture as I can as to the world in which I live.

I don't suggest moon worship in my post, I believe idol worship to be counter intuitive to my thought process and needs, this does not affect my belief and devotion to God, I also empathise fully with those who connect with God this way. sanantana dharma is very open and accepting in this and many other respects. It envelopes all as one.

Pertaining to the moon, do you really believe that this large electrically charged ball circumnavigating our planet has no effect upon it and thus us?
To have me believe that would be nonsensical to my logical mind. I speak of science and not superstition.

Regarding Egyptian Hieroglyphs? Surely they were Egyptian, you are making the same comparisons as I to another script.

Interesting that the Sun god Ra, the eye. Relates to the sound Ra in Sanskrit as in raja or king. Which came first; is some what irrelevant it is the similarity suggesting a common root which interests me the most.

I understand that the idea that your spiritual practise follows a tradition that you have been told is not permitted is aberrant to you. I am sorry for stirring this emotion within you, but you must also understand that from my perspective that is what this resembles to me.

I quote from this Wiki page here:


Qualified acceptance; partial skepticism

However, contrary stories are related. It is said that Abraham predicted in these astrological tablets that he would have no second son, but God said unto him, "Away with your astrology; for Israel there is no mazal ("luck", literally "planet" or "constellation")!" The birth of his second son, the patriarch Isaac, then gives lie to the idea that astrology is valid. (BT Shabbat 156a). Midrash Genesis Rabbah states that Abraham was not an astrologer, but rather a prophet, inasmuch as only those beneath the stars could be subject to their influence; but that Abraham was above them (Genesis Rabbah xliv. 12).
In general, many people quoted in the Talmud believed that in theory astrology had merit as some kind of science, but they were skeptical that astrological signs could be interpreted correctly or in a practical fashion. Commenting on astrologers in Sotah 12b, the Talmud says of them that "They gaze and know not at what they gaze at, they ponder and know not what they ponder."
The most popular form of astrological belief was the selection of propitious days. According to this idea, certain periods of time are regarded as lucky or unlucky. Rabbi Akiba contends against the belief that the year before the jubilee is exceptionally blessed. The belief is also condemned that no business should be begun on the new moon, on Friday, or on Sabbath evening (Sifre, Deut. 171; Sifra, Kedoshim, vi.; Sanh. 65).

Hebrew Calendar Correlation to Zodiac

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Wiki_letter_w_cropped.svg/20px-Wiki_letter_w_cropped.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki_letter_w_cropped.svg) the zodiac has been shown to correspond to the months of the Hebrew calendar.
For example, the month of Tishrei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tishrei), beginning in September or October, has the sign Libra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libra_%28astrology%29), the Scales. Tishrei is the month of Judgment, of Rosh Hashannah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Hashannah) and Yom Kippur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur) where good deeds and bad are weighed against one another.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology#cite_note-0)
Further information: Hebrew astronomy#Chronology and the zodiac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy#Chronology_and_the_zodiac)
It would seem that certain holidays and your calendar; may correspond to the zodiac somewhat?

I had Einstein in mind when I made the remark about dice, I'm glad that you spotted that.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."A great quote from Einstein.

I have just seen that we are both observing the same wiki page, what a lovely coincidence.

I am simply offering the idea of a common root. That your text may be weaved about the cosmos, which may be reduced to a mass, which coincides with Astronomy.

Please don't take offence at this suggestion, I do not mean to offend by this hypothesise.

I believe that you await a messiah, this imply's a very heavy reliance upon prophetic means, The physics of the solar system; be it the lens or the engine of that prophecy, this is of little import. The important point is the dependence upon this knowledge.

Unless we are trying to understand the process.

Thank you for sharing you most cherished beliefs with me, I mean you no discomfort, we are however in a Hindu forum and I feel this a valid discussion, from which I am learning greatly. For that I can not thank you enough.






praNAma

mana

Tikkun Olam
09 October 2011, 05:10 PM
Pertaining to the moon, do you really believe that this large electrically charged ball circumnavigating our planet has no effect upon it and thus us?
To have me believe that would be nonsensical to my logical mind. I speak of science and not superstition.

It does have an effect on us- tides and oceans and so on. I don't believe that the moon can tell us of our future or personalities or anything.


Regarding Egyptian Hieroglyphs? Surely they were Egyptian, you are making the same comparisons as I to another script.

They were Egyptian, written by Egyptians on Egyptian tombs in Egyption hieroglyphs. But the language was Hebrew- they were prayers. Here's the story;

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246379,00.html

It only shows how old the spoken language was (there was no alphabet at this time).


Interesting that the Sun god Ra, the eye. Relates to the sound Ra in Sanskrit as in raja or king. Which came first; is some what irrelevant it is the similarity suggesting a common root which interests me the most.

Here's a fun fact; the word Ra in Hebrew means "evil". :) I don't know if that's a coincidence or not.

(The word for king in Hebrew is Melech...)


I understand that the idea that your spiritual practise follows a tradition that you have been told is not permitted is aberrant to you. I am sorry for stirring this emotion within you, but you must also understand that from my perspective that is what this resembles to me.

No, you're fine. It is just an important distinction that should be made. Jews still hold fast to the rejection of physical idols, as well as the "idols" in the form of occult practices.


I am simply offering the idea of a common root. That your text may be weaved about the cosmos, which may be reduced to a mass, which coincides with Astronomy.

Please don't take offence at this suggestion, I do not mean to offend by this hypothesise.

Again, I don't take offense. As I quoted above, we believe that if we rest our head on God's shoulder, he will take care of us. So certain kinds of superstitions that want to tell us our future are not interesting. We think that if we put ourselves in the moment and do what's right, things will work out anyway. That's good enough for me... I don't need a horoscope to know how my day is going to be.


I believe that you await a messiah, this imply's a very heavy reliance upon prophetic means, The physics of the solar system; be it the lens or the engine of that prophecy, this is of little import. The important point is the dependence upon this knowledge.

We do believe in prophecies, but that they come from the lips of God, not the stars. We believe that the Torah has been and will continue to be prophetic. It did not just promise our transient ancestors the "promised land". It said that we would eventually be exiled from the land, spread out across all the nations of the world in tiny numbers, that we would be hunted down and persecuted in the lands of our enemies, that they would have a thousand of them chase one of us, and that through all of that we would be saved and delivered and prosperous to disproportionate amounts to our numbers. And all of that would spread the light of God and morals throughout the world. It also says that there would be a time, after all that exile, that we would be gathered from all the corners of the Earth and returned to Israel.

Many believe that last part is what's happening now with half of the world's Jews back in Israel after 1900 years of exile. Abraham was born in the year 1948 in the Hebrew calendar. Modern Israel was established in 1948 in the Gregorian calendar. We think we've come full circle.


Thank you for sharing you most cherished beliefs with me, I mean you no discomfort, we are however in a Hindu forum and I feel this a valid discussion, from which I am learning greatly. For that I can not thank you enough.






praNAma

mana

No problem. You're polite and understanding, I like you.

Mana
10 October 2011, 01:04 PM
Namasté Tikkun Olam,


Again, I thank you, yet I must confess to being somewhat perplexed by some apparent discord in your posture.
I am glad that we are in agreement that the Moon has an obvious effect on the earth and her in habitants. I have never spoken of prediction or prophesy, or any other “mystical” things, You have.

I am only interested in the present you see. To understand fully why I perceive reality the way that I do, and from that point on, to try to understand the perspective of others. How this all combines to one.

Conciousness is not an on/off thing it is a spectrum.

Foxnews to my mind is propaganda, if you are incapable of detecting this there is little point in my trying to share knowledge with you, as you will be little prepared to receive it.

The Television, is in general a tool used by those who own its broadcasting rights to manipulate.
You should be all to aware of the power of propaganda.

Ra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra) Now this is very interesting, and typically things pertaining to Ra can be very enlightening (I speak of fire in the belly or angst, not of an Egyptian God), you have inadvertently highlighted what is to me the greatest difference between. Jewish Doctrine and Hindu.

Evil does not exist in the Hindu philosophy, only light and dark. The dualism which leads one to be possessed of the self conviction to accuse another of evil, highlights that it is ignorance that leads to arrogance.
Ignorance is the epitome of darkness but it is not evil.

Now Ra is a sound, it is manifest low down in our abdomens (try saying Ra with out use of the chest), to be more precise, it requires a long wave length in order to be produced, so it vibrates right down in our stomachs. This gives it a connection to the stomach and to fire, which occurs in the gastric acid in our stomach. This is also the place from where anger is created, as a side effect of worry and angst. So we could say that the “Wrath of God” is connected to Ra. But also light. Just as the combustion of food in our stomachs gives us light energy so does the combustion of Hydrogen in the Sun.
Ra pertains to; Fire, Light, and the sun.

The Old somewhat abrahman* notion of a dominating God, which is found in Hinduism in the likes of the Indra the older Gods.

Evil is a condemnation, used to justify the killing of something. To settle the angst we may have about our “dark” deed.

The Hindu religion does however have the notion of the Demonic, those possessed of the self in the wrong light.

You mock (just a little) the notion of astronomy yet your religion has you worshipping in accordance with the planets, this seems to me to be Astrology used for the purposes of a people and not a person, not necessarily a bad thing, arguably the most powerful use of astrology possible.
You say that you don't believe in the power of the predictive:

At what point does a prophesy become prediction? When it is made or when belief in that prediction makes it manifest? Maybe when it is spoken with the power of Ra in the stomach? (please don't miss interpret this) I refer to good elocution with perfect timing and power (sound level) in accordance with all of nature. Maybe even just before an eclipse? Which you have predicted?

It is interesting to note here that the speech of one who has raised Kundalini becomes rhythmic and flowing, very natural and spontaneous, as if god were speaking though them.
This is of course, the energy of shakti stimulating creativity in man. It is however hypnotic and the resonance it creates can lead to either mass hallucination or mass realisation, depending on your doctrine for the choice of words.

It is interesting to note that the “image” of a burning bush and the word of God, is very descriptive of one who has experienced a kundalini rising.

All elements of the resonance and harmony of nature.

What do you think of the kundalini? Do you have any way of letting this energy express its self in your culture?


Or is this fire evil?

Does Judaism, acknowledge any connection to the Christian and Muslim faiths?
I apologise if any of my preconceptions are wrong but I have been taught a little of the "Old Testament" in my childhood. A version which has passed through the mill of several translations and interpretations, combined with some heavy editing.

Rather like a Fox news report!!!


PraNAma


mana

*abrahman = with out BrahmaNa.

Tikkun Olam
10 October 2011, 02:38 PM
Foxnews to my mind is propaganda, if you are incapable of detecting this there is little point in my trying to share knowledge with you, as you will be little prepared to receive it.

The Television, is in general a tool used by those who own its broadcasting rights to manipulate.
You should be all to aware of the power of propaganda.

I have no issue with that article, it was a straight forward archeological account. There is no message or mission there.



Ra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra) Now this is very interesting, and typically things pertaining to Ra can be very enlightening (I speak of fire in the belly or angst, not of an Egyptian God), you have inadvertently highlighted what is to me the greatest difference between. Jewish Doctrine and Hindu.

Evil does not exist in the Hindu philosophy, only light and dark. The dualism which leads one to be possessed of the self conviction to accuse another of evil, highlights that it is ignorance that leads to arrogance.
Ignorance is the epitome of darkness but it is not evil.

Ra is just a word in Hebrew. I just pointed out that it is probable that it came into being as a slap in the face to the Egyptians, who very early on worshiped Ra. Maybe there was so long-seeded animosity there. It is interesting in that case.


The Old somewhat abrahman* notion of a dominating God, which is found in Hinduism in the likes of the Indra the older Gods.

Evil is a condemnation, used to justify the killing of something. To settle the angst we may have about our “dark” deed.

The Hindu religion does however have the notion of the Demonic, those possessed of the self in the wrong light.

We don't believe in people being possessed (although some Christians do), we believe in conscious choice. We also believe in objective morals, unchangeable right and wrong, not subjective morals. So everyone has the conscious ability to decide if they are going to do something right, or wrong. If you commit adultery, it's not good enough to say, "I'm not responsible, I was possessed". I don't think the man's wife you slept with would care too much for that answer!

(Sometimes people are mentally unsound and are not responsible for their actions. But the majority of "bad" things in the world are done by people's choice.)


You mock (just a little) the notion of astronomy yet your religion has you worshipping in accordance with the planets, this seems to me to be Astrology used for the purposes of a people and not a person, not necessarily a bad thing, arguably the most powerful use of astrology possible.

If it works that way, then it is something beyond our understanding. We don't claim to be able to predict using the cosmos, at least.

This you might find significant. Both the First Temple and the Second Temple in Jerusalem were destroyed on the same exact day during the Hebrew calendar (about 600 years apart). We are still waiting to build the Third Temple. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it was "in the heavens".


You say that you don't believe in the power of the predictive:

At what point does a prophesy become prediction? When it is made or when belief in that prediction makes it manifest? Maybe when it is spoken with the power of Ra in the stomach? (please don't miss interpret this) I refer to good elocution with perfect timing and power (sound level) in accordance with all of nature. Maybe even just before an eclipse? Which you have predicted?

Prophets are spoken to by God. Usually this has to do with deep focus and meditation, training your brain to access this part of it. The framework for Jewish history I said above was all written in the Torah, and is believed to be literally God speaking to our prophet. There were others afterward who were considered prophets in Israel. I even know people today who have spent a lot of time developing this sort of meditation, and they were able to hear God talking to them, even if it was more minor (things like "Get up now and walk around the corner. There is a homeless woman there. Give her a sandwich".)



It is interesting to note here that the speech of one who has raised Kundalini becomes rhythmic and flowing, very natural and spontaneous, as if god were speaking though them.
This is of course, the energy of shakti stimulating creativity in man. It is however hypnotic and the resonance it creates can lead to either mass hallucination or mass realisation, depending on your doctrine for the choice of words.

Interesting choice of words, that's usually how we described Mount Sinai- a mass revelation (since at that moment, everyone heard God's voice, not just one person).



It is interesting to note that the “image” of a burning bush and the word of God, is very descriptive of one who has experienced a kundalini rising.

How so?


What do you think of the kundalini? Do you have any way of letting this energy express its self in your culture?


Or is this fire evil?

You might have to explain it to me more, but from I gathered from this post, yes, I think that sort of energy is expressed.


Does Judaism, acknowledge any connection to the Christian and Muslim faiths?
I apologise if any of my preconceptions are wrong but I have been taught a little of the "Old Testament" in my childhood. A version which has passed through the mill of several translations and interpretations, combined with some heavy editing.

Rather like a Fox news report!!!


PraNAma


mana

*abrahman = with out BrahmaNa.

Of course there's the connection, I briefly talked about it in my first post. The Bible was written by Jews, and these books are still a large factor in the Christian faith.. The Qu'ran also follows the history of the Jewish people (not the Arabs), and it's stories are very similar to the Oral Tradition.

I'm guessing you've never read these books. I think a lot of people hear the stories, but they are kind of second or third hand versions of them. I've noticed that there are a lot of Hollywood movies about the Exodus (there are 2000 years of Jewish history in the Bible, but for some reason people always make movies about the same story again and again), but the movies are always wrong. Always. You always get a prettied-up version of what is actually written. The written history is actually filled recognizing our own faults and mistakes, talking about our defeats as well as our victories. And there is a lot in there that is difficult to praise, but it's still in there. These are the kinds of things they leave out in the movies!

I will also say, the original Hebrew is also important. You wouldn't think it would make much of a difference, but when I look at some English translations, there really are issues with them. I think a lot of meaning is lost in translation.

Mana
12 October 2011, 10:45 AM
Namasté Tikkun Olam,


I understand and sympathise with you views and perspective; you must how ever, forgive me for I fear that you maybe somewhat in the dark, as to the inner nature of the self and thus that of sanantana dharma.

Rupert Murdoch is CEO of the group that owns “Fox news” if you are unaware as to the recent scandal in Britain please do investigate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch).

It is so important to realise that all knowledge received as hearsay, can not be taken as truth, you must find truth for you self and know to measure that truth against that of others in spiritual conversation and meeting.

I am not the best person with whom to discuss the teaching of Hinduism, there are many here on HDF who can help you to understand these principles. I am myself still very much a student.

Of the Demonic, we are not on the same page here as your understanding of evil leads you to misinterpret. You must have a full understanding as to the workings of karma to know this. If the head of an organisation is Demonic he will colour the structure beneath him/her the people dwell in “hell” for periods, from which they can remove them selves if they are assisted or blessed.

We may become possessed as an entire people, but the relativity of such a situation renders us blind to its effect.

See the colonisation of the world as a good example of this. The Dark ages were truly dark, and the Enlightenment has barely begun. We, as a species; had truly regressed at this time.

This man is quite the expert, on pathological narcissism (http://samvak.tripod.com/15.html), He freely admits to being such, but truth is a moving target and one must be ever watchful to know that one is not shifting into a state of tamas (see gunas).
This is not a people or sect or race, but a disruption in the balance of Ida and Pingala communally.

Narcissism and the Empathetic.

In Papua New Guinea there exists peoples who's dharma is so different from ours in Eurasia, that they have evolved that the males live with their sisters, not mating with them, just living with them. To help bring up their children. Sexual intercourse is very open in this society, but no one knows who the father of the children are. A man assures that his time investment is for that of his own blood by helping his sisters children. I am not suggesting this as a practise but it cannot be ignored as an example of a different dharma, which is stable.
Geography has allowed these people to exist as such.

Now, do you have the openness of mind to understand that these people are not evil?
They are not animals. And that we; as mass “consumers”, are not better than they. We have no right to their land nor resources. Nor to pollute their environment.

This is dharma also, their dharma.

Empathy, the empathetic; strength and wisdom, all of these thing depend upon Karma. Who is capable of seeing the intricate connections between the folk of a society. It is by nature; the empathetic, so what happens when a culture deems their empathy, pathetic?

Narcissus does not look out for the masses, but enslaves them.


Wisdom which can be gained purely by the natural use of Gods energy, is beaten from those who are most capable, their inner vision ignored and misunderstood; by those of linear perception who have built walls about their fear in the form of ivory towers. This impedes the lotus like unfolding of the universe. (Fractals)


For what? For control, for the fear that they manifest in their guts; that some one, might be as corrupt as they, and quite prepared to take their all.

I find if fascinating that we might think that with the use of our our egos, we are no longer possessed of our dharma. Look to neuro epigenetics to see how dharma is a construct exists in electricity upon DNA as unified conciousness.

If we now look to Sigmund Freud we see a manipulative controlling drug addict who displayed the Narcissistic tendencies of a very controlling nature. From which he himself was trying to escape. His daughter; Anna Freud, had two main patients on whom she tested her theory's; the children of a friend of the family's, they both committed suicide due to her manipulation of their dharma.

The energy of which you speak is in prAna, not Kundalini.

Kundalini is a more concentrated form than this.

The Kundalini, is the energy of which you speak of for Judgement. It is only judgemental when it is hidden and mystified. Any, (and there are many) who see this energy are treated as crazy in this material world.
Very few in the West are even given any help other than drugs towards their correct path; which would be a mentor (Yoga given by a qualified Guru).

In good balance, this energy directs the flow of the river of life. It brings insight to the wise, to direct the scientific understanding of the world with which we are entrusted to live in harmony.

If this is driven by the power hungry, money mad, then the blind are truly leading the blind. And the result is a pressure cooker.

You will get your explosion, but then you know that.


This planets; Earth's diversity will win out, attempts to control prakRti or nature like that will result in massive karmic reactions, lets us hope that this occurs before we have consumed it all.

That we might know not to play with fire but to use it not as a tool against the elements. But to worship its majesty, not to deny it; it is every man/woman and child.

The tactic of denial has been tried in forest fire prevention, to disastrous result.

By stating that only Moses is above the stars, a Dam is created. What this word needs is irrigation.

Kundalini is the divine message of God, if it manifests in one who is not ready whose dharma does not permit it they become very disturbed; by the bad Karma, the illness and fault is in the society that fails to prepare its children for growing up. The abuse of the weak minded in a parallel culture by another culture who has harnessed this energy is paramount to psychological war fair, to my mind an abuse of the love of God and an act which will surly result in karmic response … Persecution, even if the intentions are “Good”.

This remains a act of revenge.
Revenge will result in continual persecution.
An eye for an eye never stops until all concerned are blinded.


Why Is Israeli so violently opposed to her own children? … Karma?


I do not wish to criticise or stir up anger or pain, I only speak of my observation, as to what appears to me, to be the misuse of an advanced psychological effect with out its full understanding. The equivalent of leaving a nuclear weapon in the hands of children in the playground.

I will one day read the legends of which you speak, but for now my affinity in both body and mind is to the Vedas and Upanishads; The Bhagavad Gita, and many other great works, of which I am still only scratching the surface. I have not felt this affinity with other doctrines, in general feeling that they are latter derivatives of this original body, not adding to but detracting from this great work.

I do admit to being fascinated by the origins of the Jewish religion, heck in a moment of divine inspiration I have thought my self sent to teach you. I have since been taught by a wiser master, who has explained as to the pitfalls of the ego.


There is a perfect harmony between life's spiritual experience and that which I read in these sacred texts. All I see of God in my countries own dharma (Which is based in the old testament of Jewish decent) is the remnants of temples showing machines of torture and tortured souls. This is not in resonance with my view and understanding of sanantana dharma.

I do admit that there is wisdom in the words, but they do not resonate and are more than somewhat out of time.

Transcendental wisdom is not subject to this deformation.

We are all free in this world to believe as we choose, but we should not shun our roots. And belief should unite people in communion, so that they may together choose their own future. We seem to currently be subject to mass manipulation by elitists who think that they know what is best.


You can only understand this position by catching a glimpse of the transcendental nature of knowledge, the knowledge that the human concious state is one. This may come from above with no warning which may its self may render you mad, I recommend a path of education with those who are trained in the sacred ways of this knowledge, this is the means by which this energy is dispersed as love.


Might I recommend that you read the Bhagavad Gita, as an insight into Kundalini energy. A word of warning though, this should not be made a goal in life as it is a very heavy burden. But it will give you another perspective as to the nature of the word of God. Surly many forms and variations are better than one, we see this as a norm in every thing else in life including music and genetics. Of course we are safe in the knowledge that this splendour is mAyA, that all is really just that. One.

The greatest use of this energy and love is for teaching.


I shall fall silent for a while my friend; as I have a back log of reading to do. I will how ever be thrilled to answer any question that you may have pertaining to this posting.


I sincerely hope that nothing here within has offended you, I offer you only my thoughts which you are quite free to disagree with, I have the feeling that you understand this perfectly.


Above all I apologise for the some what rambling nature of this discourse, I am slowly improving but it is not easy for me to write. It takes me an exceedingly long time to formate linear text. I am somewhat more fluent in conversation..


PraNAma


mana


Aum shri ganeshaya namah ...

devotee
12 October 2011, 11:16 PM
Namaste Mana,

A very thoughtful and good post ! :)

I would like to point out this here : Kunadalini Yoga has not been discussed by Bhagwan Krishna in Bhagwad Gita. It is part of RAj Yoga, Kundalini Yoga, Kriya Yoga etc. These are taught by a qualified Guru and not to be practised by reading from a book or listening to someone.

Kundalini is a very powerful conscious energy which in an average person resides in the MoolAdhAr chakra which is near anus. The other Chakras along the spine are Swadhisthan (opposite the urinary tract), Manipur (opposite navel), AnAhat (opposite heart), Vishuddha (on the neck), AjnA (between the eyebrows) and the SahasrAr (Crown of the head). The Kundalini when it resides within MoolAdhAr chakra and the SwadhisthAn Chakra, man is bound to pleasures through sexual organs. The opening of heart chakra i.e the AnAhat chakra leads to listening of AUM vibration ozzing out from infinite pores of this universe & here starts the real journey towards Self-realisation. It is said thet after activation of AnAhat Chakra the mind doesn't find any enjoyment in worldly pleasures and seeks enjoyment in God alone. By reaching Vishuddha Chakra man starts having 24 hours vision of God.

It is important that ShushumnA nAdi is opened for the Kundalini to travel upwards.

OM

Mana
13 October 2011, 09:41 AM
Namasté Divotee,

Thank you for your kind consideration, your thoughts mean much to me.

You are quite right that Kundalini needs qualified instruction.
For those who do not find mentors, it can be hell; of this I am sure.
It would seem to me that this energy is so involved with education, yet we seem to be missing the target some how. (I pertain here to British/Western science and general education).
Paradoxically, I believe; this is why it manifests.

Does सुषुम्ण = ShushumnA ?

praNAma

mana

devotee
13 October 2011, 07:19 PM
Namaste Mana,



Does सुषुम्ण = ShushumnA ?


Oh, sometimes you people surprise me to no end ! It is pleasantly amazing to see how TBTL, you and others are learning so fast. Keep it up ! :)

You are right except that it should have an AakAr at the end सुषुम्णI ! (I don't have the unicode so instead of using the actual AakAr, I used I !).

OM