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TTCUSM
14 November 2010, 03:58 PM
Please read this article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,322673,00.html).

yajvan
14 November 2010, 06:35 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté TTCUSM,

I see this article is from 2002. Can you help me undertand what 'we' can do about this. What are your expectations? What are the implications?

Once the media gets hold of an idea, there is no telling where it will end up.

I look forward to seeing your ideas and comments.

praṇām

TTCUSM
14 November 2010, 07:19 PM
Thiru Yajvan,

First, we might want to inform any Hindus who we know that this is going on.
That way, they won't receive a nasty surprise from their friends or co-workers.

Then, we'll have to watch out for an anti-Hindu backlash in countries where Hindus are minorities.

Eastern Mind
14 November 2010, 08:15 PM
Vannakkam TTCUSM: Since it was 2002, it is highly unlikely Time would consider letters to the editor of re same, but I would imagine they got a few. I tried to search for Time archives, but was unable to find anything to further the discussion. Seems like a fairly insensitive poorly researched document for Time. But now that specific incident is water under the bridge. I believe because of the letter writing campaigns, and direct protest by any Hindu leaders, we have now a somewhat better educated American public on Hinduism. Certainly this provides us with a reminder to be constantly vigilant regarding inaccurate portrayal in the press.

Aum Namasivaya

TTCUSM
15 November 2010, 07:40 PM
Vannakkam TTCUSM: Since it was 2002, it is highly unlikely Time would consider letters to the editor of re same, but I would imagine they got a few. I tried to search for Time archives, but was unable to find anything to further the discussion. Seems like a fairly insensitive poorly researched document for Time. But now that specific incident is water under the bridge. I believe because of the letter writing campaigns, and direct protest by any Hindu leaders, we have now a somewhat better educated American public on Hinduism. Certainly this provides us with a reminder to be constantly vigilant regarding inaccurate portrayal in the press.

Aum Namasivaya

Thiru Eastern Mind,

Here's an article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/mar/05/india.theobserver) from the Guardian about similar problems in Uttar Pradesh.

TatTvamAsi
16 November 2010, 06:19 PM
Please read this article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,322673,00.html).

hmm.. another article by TIME denigrating Hindus? How surprising! :rolleyes:

christians trying to portray India/Hinduism in a bad light is futile.

TTCUSM
17 November 2010, 12:49 PM
hmm.. another article by TIME denigrating Hindus? How surprising! :rolleyes:

christians trying to portray India/Hinduism in a bad light is futile.

Thiru TatTvamAsi,

Do you think these media reports are false?

TTCUSM
17 November 2010, 06:45 PM
There's an error in the Time article by Alex Perry Atapur.
On page 547 (http://books.google.com/books?id=E_6-JbUiHB4C&lpg=PP1&dq=klaus%20klostermaier&pg=PA547#v=onepage&q&f=false) of A Survey of Hinduism, Klaus Klostermaier writes that the sacrifices were carried out at the Kali temple in Tanjore, instead of the one in Calcutta.

Eastern Mind
18 November 2010, 06:54 AM
Vannakkam TTCUSM:

I am not quite sure what you see as the serious problem. Is it the events that are reported themselves, or the western press's tendency to seek the negative?

Firstly, let's understand that the large press is a business. (There may be some exceptions in small independent presses who run on donations.) Magazines and newspapers are in the business of selling news, not telling news. It is just another capitalist venture. The term media mogul is accurate. The goal is to develop readership, and therefore be able to command high advertising rates. 80 to 90 % of all the revenue in magazines comes from advertisers, not from subscribers.

So the agenda is to write what sells, AND not to lose advertising revenue. Each of the large advertisers hold the threat of "We will pull our advertising" over the heads of the media. The CEO of a company holds a million times more power than any one single reader.

We don't even know the agenda of editorial staff, but it can be tied to a religion, or to a political or dare we say racist view.

So in this case despite there being 6 vicious rapes in Las Vegas, total mishandling of government funds, lobbyists making huge donations, illegal smuggling of humans across the Mexican border, inside America drug wars, pedophile priests within Catholicism and fundamentalists, or the absurdly quick growth in homelessness due to the 'economic downturn', the American Press chose to 'report' a negative incident from India instead. Perhaps it was fiction. You did find one error, and there could easily be more. We will never know.

Why? It's because Americans don't want to read about their own negative stuff. What they want is feel good and the occasional international horror story thrown in just to add a bit of spice to the magazine. The advertisers just want more readers, and the American way of life portrayed as the BEST in the world.

At the same time many other international disasters on a far greater scale are ignored. Many civil wars in Africa, droughts, AIDS, disease outbreaks, third world pollution, genocides, and the list continues. Why? The average person here doesn't care, or finds it depressing.

Here in Canada on one of out National evening news networks the first fifteen minutes, an entire half of the whole broadcast, was spent on the proposal of a British Royal , heir to the throne, to his girlfriend. This in itself is a great indicator of how low mainstream press has gone.

For real verification of such stories, I would far rather listen to reports of such groups as Amnesty International, perhaps even the International Red Cross.

So how does that leave Joe Reader of said press. He has two choices. One is to accept it verbatim. The other is to read between the lines and ask, "Is this story even true?" "Where did this information come from?" "What biases did the writer hold?" Why did the magazine print this particular story?" "Are there other viewpoints written of the same story?" etc

Personally, I choose option number two.

Aum Namasivaya

TatTvamAsi
18 November 2010, 03:21 PM
Thiru TatTvamAsi,

Do you think these media reports are false?

False? I'm not sure. Grossly exaggerated? Definitely.

Aghoris eat corpses and drink their own urine. Do we need an article on that on the front page of New York Times saying this is "Hinduism"? The funny thing is, it is true, but it is not central to Hindu Dharma that is being practiced today. The paths that are mostly practiced are Nivritti in nature so pee-drinking is not in vogue; at least, to most people. :D

TTCUSM
18 November 2010, 06:15 PM
I did some more research into the claims made by the articles.

Alex Perry Atapur, in the article "Killing for Mother Kali (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,322673,00.html)" writes:

Even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta, blood cults were at odds with a benign Hindu spiritualism that celebrates abstinence and vegetarianism.

Klaus Klostermaier, on page 547 (http://books.google.com/books?id=E_6-JbUiHB4C&lpg=PP1&dq=klaus%20klostermaier&pg=PA547#v=onepage&q&f=false) of A Survey of Hinduism, writes:

Volunteers were offered every Friday at the Kali temple in Tanjore up to the nineteenth century.

James Hastings, on page 850 (http://books.google.com/books?id=mMwkm6tH-94C&lpg=PA850&dq=sacrifice%20tanjore%20every%20friday&pg=PA850#v=onepage&q&f=false) of the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, writes:

The great Shaiva temple of Tanjore contains a shrine of Kali where a human victim (a male child purchased for the purpose) was sacrificed every Friday evening, until the advent of British rule led to the substitution of sheep.

The stories all contradict each other. Hmm....

Sahasranama
18 November 2010, 06:25 PM
I have heard there is mention of human sacrifice in the kalika purana. I read somewhere that Mahahrada was reading that scripture. Unfortunately, he is not around to give an answer.

TatTvamAsi
20 November 2010, 12:42 AM
Mahahrada was reading that scripture. Unfortunately, he is not around to give an answer.

What happened to him?

Sahasranama
20 November 2010, 12:46 AM
What happened to him?He got sacrified to Kali I have heard.

Just joking, I think he got tired of some discussions here, I don't know.

TTCUSM
20 November 2010, 05:47 PM
Guys,

I'd like to know if anyone can verify the claims made in the books/articles I posted.

Has anyone been to Tanjore? Has anyone spoken with the locals? Can they confirm the assertion that sacrifices were carried out at the Kali temple (or the Kali shrine in the Shiva temple)?

Has anyone been to Calcutta? Has anyone spoken with the locals? Can they confirm the assertion that sacrifices were carried out at the Kali temple?

TTCUSM
20 November 2010, 05:54 PM
Guys,

I'd like to know if anyone can verify the claims made in the books/articles I posted.

Has anyone been to Tanjore? Has anyone spoken with the locals? Can they confirm the assertion that sacrifices were carried out at the Kali temple (or the Kali shrine in the Shiva temple)?

Has anyone been to Calcutta? Has anyone spoken with the locals? Can they confirm the assertion that sacrifices were carried out at the Kali temple?

OK...
Regarding the first assertion (sacrifices at the Shiva temple in Tanjore).
They're probably referring to the Brihadeshwara temple.
I did some Googling, and found a link (http://www.thebigtemple.com/templelayout.html) to the temple's layout.
The temple has shrines to Nandi, Hanuman, Ganesha, Murugan, and various incarnations of Shiva. But no Kali shrine...

Eastern Mind
20 November 2010, 05:59 PM
Vannakkam TTCUSM: Here is a better link: http://www.view360.in/virtualtour/thanjavur/ Have a look for yourself. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was there and there certainly was no mention of it in anything I saw or heard. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but personally I'm very suspicious of such 'history'.

Aum namasivaya

Believer
20 November 2010, 06:59 PM
What precisely is the purpose of this research?
What exactly is bothering you?
Is it related to a particular deity that you are fond of, or have adopted as your primary deity?

If I knew the answers to these questions, maybe I could calm your fears, your disappointments, your disturbed mind. As you can see no one is rattled by your posts or having sleepless nights. Instead of "WE have a serious problem", it is looking more and more as if 'YOU ALONE have a serious problem'. So, let us know the details, and maybe we can help.

TTCUSM
20 November 2010, 07:13 PM
What precisely is the purpose of this research?
What exactly is bothering you?
Is it related to a particular deity that you are fond of, or have adopted as your primary deity?

If I knew the answers to these questions, maybe I could calm your fears, your disappointments, your disturbed mind. As you can see no one is rattled by your posts or having sleepless nights. Instead of "WE have a serious problem", it is looking more and more as if 'YOU ALONE have a serious problem'. So, let us know the details, and maybe we can help.

Nothing's bothering me, really.
I'm just trying to find out whether these claims are true, or whether they're just Raj-era propaganda.
In another thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6675), I posted a concrete example of a claim that had been fabricated.
In yet another thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4316&highlight=muller), I posted a concrete example of an error in Max Muller's translation of the Vedas.

yajvan
20 November 2010, 08:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté TTCUSM


I posted a concrete example of an error in Max Muller's translation of the Vedas.

There is no doubt Mr. Muller's work is notable (far greater then I have ever accomplished) . His dedication to his work is admirable, yet it is lacking direct personal experience. Hence any blemish that is found in his translations is due to this, not his motivation.

Great , accurate and valuable translations come from one's personal experience of the Supreme, that yields satyam and ṛtaṃ ( truth and direct cognition of the truth, the right, the vast). This then is put to words in the best possible light.

All others (including me) give the best attempt at this knowledge and vibration of truth we have in ourselves; to the best of our ability reflect in words and ideas the notion of this noble and supreme Reality.

praṇām

TatTvamAsi
21 November 2010, 12:02 AM
Namaste,



There is no doubt Mr. Muller's work is notable (far greater then I have ever accomplished) . His dedication to his work is admirable, yet it is lacking direct personal experience. Hence any blemish that is found in his translations is due to this, not his motivation.

I wouldn't be so sure of his "motivation". Are you not aware that Max Muller was the man who propounded the now defunct "Aryan Invasion Theory" to subjugate Hindus? A theory he himself rescinded in his final years to no avail. His work was pivotal to western Indologists, most of whom were christian missionaries out to denigrate India and Hinduism. Thus, Max Muller's translations, commentaries, and any so-called "work" on India, let alone the Vedas, are utterly inconsequential. Not only did Max Muller never have any experience of unity consciousness, he was uninitiated and thus ignorant of the true meaning of the Vedas. Reading his "translations" will only lead to pernicious teachings and understanding of the Veda superficially.

This actually is part of a much bigger problem but that is fodder for some other thread.



Great , accurate and valuable translations come from one's personal experience of the Supreme, that yields satyam and ṛtaṃ ( truth and direct cognition of the truth, the right, the vast). This then is put to words in the best possible light.

All others (including me) give the best attempt at this knowledge and vibration of truth we have in ourselves; to the best of our ability reflect in words and ideas the notion of this noble and supreme Reality.

praṇām

The question is, then, why even bother reading or worse, studying, the translations of ignorant men? Men who have not tasted the amrita of the parabrahman? Is it not analogous to the story of the "blind leading the blind"? What good can come of reading works of ignorant folk? After all, those who have not attained samAdhI, even savikalpa samAdhI, cannot utter that which cannot be explained or understood with the mind.

I just wanted to discuss the importance of "translations" and commentaries, by etic or emic scholars. Is this not the reason we seek dIkSA with a gurU? Is this not the purpose of upaniSad?

Namaskar.

Believer
21 November 2010, 12:20 AM
I wouldn't be so sure of his "motivation". Are you not aware that Max Muller was the man who propounded the now defunct "Aryan Invasion Theory" to subjugate Hindus? A theory he himself rescinded in his final years to no avail. His work was pivotal to western Indologists, most of whom were christian missionaries out to denigrate India and Hinduism. Thus, Max Muller's translations, commentaries, and any so-called "work" on India, let alone the Vedas, are utterly inconsequential. Not only did Max Muller never have any experience of unity consciousness, he was uninitiated and thus ignorant of the true meaning of the Vedas. Reading his "translations" will only lead to pernicious teachings and understanding of the Veda superficially.

+1

My feelings exactly.
Don't know why people would waste time on a fake like Max.

TatTvamAsi
21 November 2010, 01:00 AM
He got sacrified to Kali I have heard.


hahahahahhaha... I LOL'd...

saidevo
21 November 2010, 01:26 AM
namaste Yajvan and others.



There is no doubt Mr. Muller's work is notable (far greater then I have ever accomplished) . His dedication to his work is admirable, yet it is lacking direct personal experience. Hence any blemish that is found in his translations is due to this, not his motivation.


I am surprised that you don't recognize Max Mueller's Christian agenda in translating the Vedas and other Hindu scriptures, after the huge discussion some of us had in the 'Extrapolating Christianity' long back with Sarabhanga trying vehemently to defend the Orientalists for being sincere and impartial in their work:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=21727&postcount=62

There is recorded evidence about Max Mueller being a paid British agent with a Christian agenda. Some Hindu scholars of his own time, notably Pandit Gurudatta Vidyarthi, have exposed his intentions in his works on Indology:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=36507

As pointed out by TTCUSM, this thread also has related information:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4316&highlight=muller

As TTA and Believer have pointed out above, the translations of European scholars are much flawed, for the simple reason, due to their Christian agenda, the authors could not have had any personal experience of the Supreme that Vedas and UpaniShads talk about.

For more authentic information about the European efforts of slander of Hindu Dharma, check this Website:
http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/site_map.htm

yajvan
21 November 2010, 01:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté saidevo,


namaste Yajvan and others.

I am surprised that you don't recognize Max Mueller's Christian agenda in translating the Vedas and other Hindu scriptures, after the huge discussion some of us had in the 'Extrapolating Christianity' long back with Sarabhanga trying vehemently to defend the Orientalists for being sincere and impartial in their work:

I see your point - yet my approach has been simple. I read some of his work and remain unmoved. There is no vibration to it that resonates with me, so I leave it alone.

Regarding his agenda. This may be true, yet for me and my attention, I put it where it will do the most good and look for sattva whenever I can.

His books are now written - what more is there to do ? The more debates the more it is brought up and given awareness and energy to them. I am of the opinion, let them sleep. I choose to let it rest.

praṇām

TTCUSM
21 November 2010, 01:26 PM
Thiru Yajvan,

First, we might want to inform any Hindus who we know that this is going on.
That way, they won't receive a nasty surprise from their friends or co-workers.

Then, we'll have to watch out for an anti-Hindu backlash in countries where Hindus are minorities.

Guys,

In the other thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=54112&postcount=10), Harjas Kaur talked about a riot that took place a couple of months ago at a Kali temple in Bengal. It is listed on Wikipedia under the title "2010 Deganga Riots".

I'm wondering if this is part of the anti-Hindu backlash I mentioned in my previous post. One can only wonder what kind of propaganda is circulating in the madrassas...

Harjas Kaur
21 November 2010, 01:32 PM
the anti-Hindu riots in Deganga Bengal have to do with Muslim fanaticism and a religious creed which promotes only Islam as the one true faith. It has also to do with Muslims from Bangladesh crossing the borders to stir up conflicts since Muslim Pakistan as well as Muslim Bangladesh work directly with China in attempting to foment rebellions, revolutions and balkanize the territory of the Indian nation.

It has nothing whatever to do with some criminal tantric adepts. Only the broad labeling of such adharmic practitioners as "Hindu" is in fact the malicious mischief and fraudulent misrepresentation of anti-Hindu missionaries.

Are you an alt or friend of hanumuslimsolo? Just wondering.

yajvan
21 November 2010, 01:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté TTA,


Namaste,


The question is, then, why even bother reading or worse, studying, the translations of ignorant men?

I ask myself this often... my teacher explained it this way. He said at night ( ignorance) the stars shine the best they can to light the sky. Yet with the dawn (uṣa or usha) the sun blazes forth ( the enlightened) , no place is left in the dark.
Like that, we are in a time when the sun is not fully arisen. We have people doing the best that can with the light that that have - in their writing, study and the like.

So, many may read books from the less enlightened. There may be a spark, or flame of truth in their offers. Yet as one advances in their practice and sādhana , lesser work and knowledge become appealing as one gravitates to more and more light ( insight, ṛtaṁ) and look to those that really know. I found this to be true.

praṇām

TTCUSM
21 November 2010, 02:02 PM
the anti-Hindu riots in Deganga Bengal have to do with Muslim fanaticism and a religious creed which promotes only Islam as the one true faith. It has also to do with Muslims from Bangladesh crossing the borders to stir up conflicts since Muslim Pakistan as well as Muslim Bangladesh work directly with China in attempting to foment rebellions, revolutions and balkanize the territory of the Indian nation.

It has nothing whatever to do with some criminal tantric adepts. Only the broad labeling of such adharmic practitioners as "Hindu" is in fact the malicious mischief and fraudulent misrepresentation of anti-Hindu missionaries.

Are you an alt or friend of hanumuslimsolo? Just wondering.

No, I'm not related to hanumansolo.
I'm simply concerned about a possible anti-Hindu backlash that may result from these media reports.

yajvan
21 November 2010, 02:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté TTCUSM



No, I'm not related to hanumansolo.
I'm simply concerned about a possible anti-Hindu backlash that may result from these media reports.

Please consider the dates of the articles. If there were to be any backlash, it would have occurred. These articles are years-old and the water has passed under the bridge, evaporated, and rained down on this earth on 7 continents :) .

praṇām

Eastern Mind
21 November 2010, 04:47 PM
Vannakkam TTCUSM and others:

The idea that there was once human sacrifice in Tanjore intrigued me and disturbed me at the same time. For I was there:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=28144&postcount=18

and felt a particular affinity for the sense of infinity.

The Judeo-Christian world has a basic assumption upon which all their history rides on. The assumption is/was that mankind started somewhere near Jerusalem and spread out. Despite having been proven wrong, it remains a central assumption for hard-core Abrahamics.

I once watched an archeological documentary on the unearthing of a huge and ancient city complex somewhere on the South African plains. The archeologists marveled at the degree of sophistication, but then went into the debate about the place. It was essentially that this city could not have been built by the black Negroid African race because it was far too complex. (implying that blacks were inferior) Therefore a wandering tribe of Abrahamics must have come along and set up camp. The documentary was plain in its message of how people distort history for their own ethnocentric purposes.

Jumping back to Tanjore, I see similarities. The anthropologist could have asked, "How could such a simpleton group of pagans construct such a magnificent artifice?" For Tanjore is indeed perhaps the single most impressive monument on the planet, given all aspects, including the difficulty of working with granite. So then it's "Let's write a little story, shall we," and came up with the Kali sacrifice thing, just to derail the real story, Tanjore's amazing magnificence. Does this sound a bit imaginative?

In my research, I also encountered another debate as to the actual timeline of Tanjore. Although the temple just celebrated its 1000 years, there is another version that it was built circa 300 AD, and the history was rewritten by Europeans so that it's antiquity was less impressive. Now that one wouldn't surprise me either.

Back in junior high, some teacher pointed out to me the discrepancies between war statistics in WW1 depending on whose version you read. Since then I've been taking most history with a grain of salt.

The whole thing brings me to the comedy of Beverley Hillbillies (only a few other older and wiser people like Yajvan may relate to this) when Granny still thought the South had won the American Civil War.

Aum Namasivaya

TTCUSM
21 November 2010, 06:13 PM
Thiru Eastern Mind,

The city complex you're referring to is most likely the Great Zimbabwe complex. When Europeans discovered it, they couldn't fathom the idea that a civilization was built by native Africans, so they came up with all sorts of theories to support their ethnocentric worldview.

They actually tried to do the same thing to us. When they discovered the Vedas, they couldn't fathom the idea that they were written by native Indians, so they came up with the Aryan Invasion Theory (Europeans migrated to India and wrote the Vedas). Then, when the Indus Valley Civilization was discovered, they claimed that the Harappans learned how to build cities from the Mesopotamians! Only the discovery of Mehrgarh could prove to them that Indic civilization had an indigenous origin.

Believer
21 November 2010, 06:22 PM
The idea that there was once human sacrifice in Tanjore intrigued me and disturbed me at the same time.
My standard answer to such accusations is 'So What?'. I just tell the accuser to MYOB, and move on. No point getting all flustered over issues like this which pop up every so often.

It was a muslim guy (under two login IDs) trying to stir up some trouble with few new threads. So, calm down and go back to whatever you were doing. It was a false accusation meant to rile up the crowds. Hopefully he is gone after I outed him and Harjas posted some strong replies with adequate proof/pictures.

yajvan
21 November 2010, 06:25 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté RM

I must say you have taken us on a ride .:)

We have gone to Tanjore, South Africa , Jerusalem, high-school, WW1, Beverley Hill Billy's, and we end up in the South and the American Civil War.

So , now the question - how do I connect the dots back the the original post?

http://www.activitypad.com/pages/dot/dot-2.gif

praṇām

Believer
21 November 2010, 06:28 PM
So , now the question - how do I connect the dots back the the original post?

Very funny Yajvanji!

Eastern Mind
21 November 2010, 06:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté RM

I must say you have taken us on a ride .:)

We have gone to Tanjore, South Africa , Jerusalem, high-school, WW1, Beverley Hill Billy's, and we end up in the South and the American Civil War.

So , now the question - how do I connect the dots back the the original post?

http://www.activitypad.com/pages/dot/dot-2.gif

praṇām

Now if I was the moderator, I certainly wouldn't tolerate such off topic wanderings of this RM, guy, whoever he is.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
21 November 2010, 07:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté EM ( a.k.a. RM )



Now if I was the moderator, I certainly wouldn't tolerate such off topic wanderings of this RM, guy, whoever he is. Aum Namasivaya
Names have been changed to protect the innocent.

praṇām

TTCUSM
21 November 2010, 07:50 PM
It was a muslim guy (under two login IDs) trying to stir up some trouble with few new threads. So, calm down and go back to whatever you were doing. It was a false accusation meant to rile up the crowds. Hopefully he is gone after I outed him and Harjas posted some strong replies with adequate proof/pictures.

*sigh*
For the last time, I am NOT hanumansolo, and I am NOT a Muslim.

Believer
21 November 2010, 11:14 PM
I am sorry, I was not talking about you.
But if you are TTC-USAMA, that is okay too.
We love posts from Usama, specially if the weasel tells us where he is posting from, what cave does he currently live in, so we can pass on the info to the proper authorities.