A few questions [Archive] - Hindu Dharma Forums

Raven Chorus

01 December 2006, 02:27 PM

Namast� to you all -

I had previously started a thread to pose a few questions, but the thread somehow disappeared. My apologies to anyone who might have replied (it wasn't my fault!).

Just to make things clear, I am not a Hindu: I am a European 'pagan' (whatever that means) interested in Tradition (which of course includes Sanatana Dharma). As I have recently started reading about Shakta, partly by way of Tantra, i thought someone might help clarify a few doubts I have.

1) Firstly, I was wondering about worship and initiation: how effective is prayer without initiation? Can/should ritual prayers be attempted without prior initiation?

2) Is initiation in Shakta identical with Diksha? And what does it consist of?

3) How do Westerns approach initiation? I mean: do most Westerns who become interested in following Hinduism just walk into a temple? Is "conversion" in this sense well-accepted within Hinduism? And what if no temple/guru is available? (I guess what I am wondering about is the practical way in which those of you not born into the Hindu tradition have adopted the religion...)

4) Lastly, if anyone has any books/sites on Shakta which they think might be useful for someone new to the subject, it would be great if you could mention them.

I wouldn't like to give the impression here that I'm here looking for an expedite way to 'convert' to Hinduism; I am however genuinly considering the possibilities of Bhakta. I have posted my questions in this section of the forum because it is Shakta in particular I have been wondering about; I guess that most of these questions might equally apply to the other branches of Hinduism. Also - and I mean no offence whatsoever - I would rather not hear about ISCKON here, as I am already somewhat familiar with the organisation, and I think - partly because it is so well established in the Western world - that it constitutes a different case (in terms of initiation etc.) from 'mainstream' Hinduism.

I realise my questions might sound tedious, but perhaps they might trigger considerations of use to others apart from myself. Who knows. Anyway, any help will be most welcome. :)

yajvan

01 December 2006, 08:11 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Raven,
you ask reasonable questions... let me attempt to answer a few and ask others more knowledgable to add/correct/and improve.

1) Firstly, I was wondering about worship and initiation: how effective is prayer without initiation? Can/should ritual prayers be attempted without prior initiation?
Worship is from your heart. The Lord is in your heart. No 'offical' initiation on prayer is required, just simplicity.
When you say initiation - you may be asking for diksha initiation for mantra? is this so? This wold be for spiritual pursuit or sadhana ( from sadh root, meaning going to the goal) and you would be the sadhaka, the practitioner of thids spirtual pursuit.
2) Is initiation in Shakta identical with Diksha? And what does it consist of?
Note there are various forms of diskha, that gives sakti or or energy... sakti is 'sak' to be able...and gives siddhi or attainment. What do you wish to occomplpish? what is your intent ( sankalpha)?

3) How do Westerns approach initiation? I mean: do most Westerns who become interested in following Hinduism just walk into a temple? Is "conversion" in this sense well-accepted within Hinduism? And what if no temple/guru is available? (I guess what I am wondering about is the practical way in which those of you not born into the Hindu tradition have adopted the religion...)

If you have interest in becoming a follower of Sanatana Dharm, consider some reading ....perhaps the Bhagavd Gita ( the song of the Lord) is a good place to start. Yet visiting a temple and talking with the pundit/sastri is good. Sanatana Dharm welcomes all at their level of development, the ones with a sincere heart. Why so? we are no different from each other; we are all part and pacel of the Whole. A guest is seen as God coming to ones home, what more of a person of a sincere heart visiting a temple?

Then come to this forum and ask questions to fill your needs...

4) Lastly, if anyone has any books/sites on Shakta which they think might be useful for someone new to the subject, it would be great if you could mention them.
Once we understand your desires, there is wonderful knowledge to learn and to advance your experiences...

I wouldn't like to give the impression here that I'm here looking for an expedite way to 'convert' to Hinduism; I am however genuinly considering the possibilities of Bhakta.
Bhakta or Bakti ( devotion) from the root bhj , to love worship or revere.
One can practice bakti yoga. More can be said here, yet ones heart needs a little grooming to have it swell to the the fullness of the Divine. One needs to get in touch with ones SELF as this prepares the field for the blossoming of devotion. Reading the Gita will help you with this, yet meditation ( if you are open to this) grooms the intellect, the heart and the emotions accordingly. You will have questions I am sure, and bring them to this forum.

Om Hareer vida-dhyaan mama sarva rakshaam

May Lord Hari protect you from all sides

pranams,

Raven Chorus

02 December 2006, 05:44 AM

Namast� Yajvan, and thank you for your replies. Allow me clarify my position further.

I am considering Hinduism because as many Westeners in pursuit of honest spiritual self-development I cannot relate to Christianity (for a number of reasons). Over the years, the study of the pre-Christian past of Europe has led me to embrace a series of beliefs (although 'outlook' would be a more appropriate term to use) which are, as far as I understand, fully compatible - if not identical to - Sanatana Dharma. It would be complex to discuss this in detail, but let me say that having first approached the Vedas and Vedanta (including the Bhagavad-gita) I have been struck by the similarities between what these Scriptures explained and what certain Classical authors (particularly the Neoplatonists) described.

Over the years, I have attempted to translate the outlook I acquired on a spiritual plane by means of prayer. In practical terms, for me this means contemplating the divine forms known to us from Antiquity (i.e. the Gods), and practicing the Roman private rite (ritus privatus), the forms of which are generally known to us, and which follows a sacred calendar (Kalendarium) preserved intact to this day. Moreover, the ritus privatus requires no initiation (and according to Cicero, it can never be abolished: sacra privata perpetua manento). I realise this might sound odd to you, but I assure you I am not alone in practicing these rites and that moreover there is nothing particularly esoteric about them.

Now, bearing in mind that to this day I continue to pray in this fashion, the reason I have recently been wondering about Bhakti is twofold: 1) I feel Bhakti (roughly meaning, as far as I understand, "loving" religious devotion, mostly directed towards one deity or aspect of Brahman) might be a form of worship more suited to the times and to my own character; 2) I might benefit from initiation and spiritual guidance.

I am not saying that I feel the "pagan" rites I follow no longer are valid, or that I cannot manifest devotion to a personal form of God by these means; but that the sincere adoption of Hindu practices might help me. It might - I don't know.

Please let me stress the fact that I am talking in terms of practice because I already feel I can fully identify with the Hindu 'outlook': I don't need to 'convert' in terms of "belief" - I'm already there. Of course, I have much to learn, much to read and much to study (the knowledge of Hindu Dharma is so vast it could hardly be exhausted in one lifespan!). But all this theoretical, theological or metaphysical knowledge does not amount to much if it isn't translated on a 'practical' level (as the Truth can only be grasped by transcending the mind, through experience).

With regard to meditation, I have recently approached Tantra. Again, I realize there is so much I have to learn here - it's nothing simple. But what I am sure of, is that beside any meditation technique I might explore, because of the way I am, I also need the support of an external worship of personal forms of God. The object of any worship, as far as I am concerned, is both to secure material goods, but also (and most importantly) to purify one's soul. The ultimate goal, of course, would be moksha.

I hope to have made things a little clearer (and not to have bored you too much! ;)). Of course, I ought to point out that should a temple be available anywhere near where I am living, I would not hesitate visiting it - but so far, no luck.

As the Romans used to say,

valete optime!

yajvan

04 December 2006, 09:54 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namast� Yajvan, and thank you for your replies. Allow me clarify my position further.
I am considering Hinduism because as many Westeners in pursuit of honest spiritual self-development I cannot relate to Christianity (for a number of reasons). Over the years, the study of the pre-Christian past of Europe has led me to embrace a series of beliefs (although 'outlook' would be a more appropriate term to use) which are, as far as I understand, fully compatible - if not identical to - Sanatana Dharma.
Now, bearing in mind that to this day I continue to pray in this fashion, the reason I have recently been wondering about Bhakti is twofold: 1) I feel Bhakti (roughly meaning, as far as I understand, "loving" religious devotion, mostly directed towards one deity or aspect of Brahman) might be a form of worship more suited to the times and to my own character;
2) I might benefit from initiation and spiritual guidance.
Please let me stress the fact that I am talking in terms of practice because I already feel I can fully identify with the Hindu 'outlook': I
But all this theoretical, theological or metaphysical knowledge does not amount to much if it isn't translated on a 'practical' level (as the Truth can only be grasped by transcending the mind, through experience).
With regard to meditation, I have recently approached Tantra.
The object of any worship, as far as I am concerned, is both to secure material goods, but also (and most importantly) to purify one's soul. The ultimate goal, of course, would be moksha.
valete optime!
Namaste Raven,
you speak as do the wise... note that truth (satyam) is the truth when found. If you 'see' this in your existing practice and can find parallels in Sanatana Dharma, that is wonderful.
What is key, is your point on transcending.... most important. As the Turyia consciousness, or pure consciousness, is beyond the thinking mind.
This, when established, brings one to the height and quaility for bhakti to really blossom... that was my last post point I wished to explain, and you are there in the undersanding. If you choose Tantra as an approach fine, transcending can be done there. For one evolves and comes to this Turyia from many directions. Its the substratum for all consciouness and frankly the foundation of creation. Moksha is the establishment of this turyia.
That said, spiritual guidence would be good. As there are different types of 'guides'. Guru's, sadhu's, jivinmuki's, etc.
Who gives you a mantra is of great import
Diksha guru
The Diksha guru is one God Realized being who can deliver initiation to the sisya ( student) or Sadhu ( seeker).
Diksha's word construction is "da" or to give + "ksi" or to destroy . Obviously , to destroy ignorance of not knowing SELF.
The verb base is "diks" "to consecrate , coming from "daks" or to grow or increase.
Rtvic guru
This guru is subordinate to the Diksha guru - and the person can initiate on behalf of the Diksha Guru ( kinda like a TM teacher).
Siksha guru
Siksha or "instruction" guru, teaches various categories of knowledge:
Para-vidya or higher/greater understanding - the Ved, the difference between self and SELF, between matter and spirit;
Maharshi and a Brahmarishi fall into this class, as highly evolved Pundits and gurus.

The question is are you in the proximity for this to occur? This would be a blessing for you to find the guru. Really , your desire is the start. It initiates the process. Its said, the SELF reveals itSELF to itSELF, and we think we really are the authors!
Going to the temple will allow you to express your bhakti if you choose. Yet, there is no-thing HE is not. Different techniques can help develop this vision, hense the reason of meditation. It allows the unfoldment of clear vision to occur, yet is a catalist for this. Tantra meditation will work, as in the final analysis, purification happens for clear vision to occur

Its of great interest and delight to me that Tara ( from "tr" or to cross), a Tantric shaki Goddess is associated with Omkara, as her bija sound is Pranava too - Aum.

Yet my knowledge is one-legged. I say this for I do not live this fullness i talk of. I read, meditate, and develp myself the best I can for some time now, but I too await for Sanatkumara to remove the knots of ignorance I posses. SO I go to my 'teachers' - the Upanishads, Ved, Gita, agma's, yagya, jappa, etc for learning. I have had guru's in the past, but never a personal realationship that I too am awaiting. This will come.

Not sure if this helps, but happy to discuss. There are some finer points on this process that gets lost over time and this is the knowledge that a realized being can bring to the sisya. I have been fortunate to have many as my teachers, in person, in book form, lectures, etc. that have improved my understanding and what I believe is most key - a clear vision of the goal. Any road will take to a destination if one is not clear of the goal. For this , I call it 'getting prepared' - as I have been doing for quite some time now. The subtleness of the goal is very profound. This I find amazing, but see a little more day by day.

More if there is interest....

Idam brahma, idam kshatram, ime lokah, ime devah, imani bhutani, idam sarvam yad ayam atma.
"This Source of knowledge; this source of power; all these worlds; all these gods; all these beings; -- All this is just the Self."
SAGE YAJNAVALKYA , BRIHADARANYAKA UPANISHAD

satay

05 December 2006, 10:32 AM

Namaste Yajvan,
Thank you for the post.

I hope I am not intruding in your conversation with Raven but I have a few questions of my own.

What is key, is your point on transcending.... most important. As the Turyia consciousness, or pure consciousness, is beyond the thinking mind.
This, when established, brings one to the height and quaility for bhakti to really blossom... that was my last post point I wished to explain, and you are there in the undersanding.

I understand that transcending is the key point from theoretical point of view, however, my personal experience has been that it is most difficult to achieve. How does one transcend over mind? For me at least, it has been easy to read about it in a book and understand it but I have been unsuccessful at meditating even let alone transcending the mind. Your help or suggestions would be most appreciated here.

And now to my main question, you said that Turyia consciousness brings one to the height and quality of bhakti to really blossom. I fail to understand this point.

Bhakti is between the man and ishvara, how does turyia bring one to the highest point of bhakti? Of course, my limited understanding of turyia states that it is a state where one realizes that there is no other and so if there is no other then there is no relationship with the lord or ishvara be it shiva or Vishnu. Since one has transcended the state of bhakti in Turyia how can ‘bhakti really blossom’ at this highest point? Please clear my understanding.

That said, spiritual guidence would be good. As there are different types of 'guides'. Guru's, sadhu's, jivinmuki's, etc.
Who gives you a mantra is of great import
Diksha guru
The Diksha guru is one God Realized being who can deliver initiation to the sisya ( student) or Sadhu ( seeker).
Diksha's word construction is "da" or to give + "ksi" or to destroy . Obviously , to destroy ignorance of not knowing SELF.
The verb base is "diks" "to consecrate , coming from "daks" or to grow or increase.
Rtvic guru
This guru is subordinate to the Diksha guru - and the person can initiate on behalf of the Diksha Guru ( kinda like a TM teacher).
Siksha guru
Siksha or "instruction" guru, teaches various categories of knowledge:
Para-vidya or higher/greater understanding - the Ved, the difference between self and SELF, between matter and spirit;
Maharshi and a Brahmarishi fall into this class, as highly evolved Pundits and gurus.

This is perfect and I humbly add to this list the following:

Mother
The first guru, the debt owed to whom, one can never repay, in my opinion.

More if there is interest....

Yes!

Raven Chorus

05 December 2006, 04:11 PM

Namast� to you all -

Yajvan: believe me, I do find your comments of interest; more importantly, I hope what I can learn from any comment here might be useful (I have not joined this forum just to improve my typing skills...).

To be honest, I feel that lately I have much benefited in exchanging ideas in public forums and (privately) with forum members. It is ironic that internet lends itself to the most absurd extremes (like all tools, I guess...).

I feel that some internet dialogue, just like some good book, can act as an 'upaguru' (I hope the term is correct), guiding me a little further, if only a few centimetres along a hundred-km road... In this sense, I'd say good reading and conversation can also act as what you define as 'Siksha guru' (although I'm not much familiar with Sanksrit, and wouldn't like to be abusing the term...). As for a 'real-life' guru, I'm not going to worry too much: I have always been told that such guru is falways found when the time has come to meet him.

In the meanwhile, I try to focus on these readings. Lately, on Osho - which I considered a New Age scam prior to actually reading any of his books. I have now come greately to appreciate the guy. Through Osho's comment on the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, I have also approached meditation - although I have momentarily stopped practicing it after a bad experience I had just a few days ago. Actually, let me briefly explain this - if that's ok. Perhaps, being more experienced than I am, you might offer some advice.

Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.

This leads me back to where I started from: Bhakti. Prayer has always been important to me (as a 'pagan'), and now I understand one of the reasons: prayer helps strengthen my awareness, which is a prerequisite for meditation. So the two (prayer and meditation) go hand in hand as 'tools' towards the ultimate goal of henosis/unio mystica (i.e. moksha/turya consciousness) - which of course is achieved through many, many stages (all of which are a miracle in themselves). So, by enquiring about Bhakti, I am really enquiring about possible ways of worshipping a personal form of Brahman with a progression in mind. I think I have understood what religion is for, now I would like to find the best way to make it 'work' for me.

Of course, I would like to read any replies to the interesting theoretical points raised by satay. Unfortunately, I am not qualified to answer them myself (basically: :dunno:)

Valete!

Raven Chorus

05 December 2006, 04:42 PM

(Regarding the issue of gurus, a useful quote from Osho...)

"Do you feel hlpless? No one feels helpless. No one feels helpless! Everyone knows, 'I can do. If I want, I can do. It is because I do not want to that I am not doing.' Everyone thinks that if they wish, if the will, they will do. They think, 'The moment I will it, I will do it. the only reason I am not doing it is because I am not willing it just now.'

But no one feels helpless. If someone says that through tht egrace fo teh master it can happen, you think you are ready just this very moment. If it is a question of doing something, you say you can do it whenever you want, but if it is a question of grace you say, 'Okay! If it can be received from someone, i can receive it this very moment.'

You are not helpless, you are just lazy, and there is a great difference. In laziness no grace can be received - only in helplessness. And helplessness is not part of laziness. Helplessness comes only to those who first make every effort to reach, to penetrate, to do. When you have done everything and nothing happens, you feel helpless. Only then can you surrender to someone. Then your surrendering will become a technique.

(...)

So do not think of a master as one who can give you grace. Think of becoming a helpless disciples - totally surrendered, in love. the master will come to you. When the disciple is ready, the master always comes. It is not a question of physical presence; when you are ready, from an unknown dimension of love, grace happens. But do not think about grace as an escape. (...) Try these techniques, and try honestly. If you are a failure, then that very failure will become your surrender. That is the ultimate technique."

satay

05 December 2006, 05:18 PM

namaste Raven,

Lately, on Osho - which I considered a New Age scam prior to actually reading any of his books. I have now come greately to appreciate the guy. Through Osho's comment on the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, I have also approached meditation -

You echo my words re OSHO. His lectures are amazing. To those who like to bad mouth Osho, I request that you pick up a copy of any of his books. Any book has the power to get you hooked to him wanting for more. Some of his books are also available online.

Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.

I wait for other more knowledgable members to comment on this. I do not think that you should stop. In fact, you should find out what Osho says about this feeling...I remember reading something about it, however, can't remember exactly where and what.

The uncomfortable feeling is normal as the mind has been running like a crazy mad house for centuries. A split second of calmness will and should result in this type of feeling, though I have never experienced it myself probably because my mind never becomes blank no matter what I try. Probably, I am trying too hard...and should 'let go' as OSHO would instruct.

This leads me back to where I started from: Bhakti. Prayer has always been important to me (as a 'pagan'), and now I understand one of the reasons: prayer helps strengthen my awareness, which is a prerequisite for meditation. So the two (prayer and meditation) go hand in hand as 'tools' towards the ultimate goal of henosis/unio mystica (i.e. moksha/turya consciousness) - which of course is achieved through many, many stages (all of which are a miracle in themselves). So, by enquiring about Bhakti, I am really enquiring about possible ways of worshipping a personal form of Brahman with a progression in mind. I think I have understood what religion is for, now I would like to find the best way to make it 'work' for me.

satay

05 December 2006, 05:19 PM

yajvan

05 December 2006, 08:09 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,
Thank you for the post.

I hope I am not intruding in your conversation with Raven but I have a few questions of my own.
I understand that transcending is the key point from theoretical point of view, however, my personal experience has been that it is most difficult to achieve. How does one transcend over mind? ...

And now to my main question, you said that Turyia consciousness brings one to the height and quality of bhakti to really blossom. I fail to understand this point.

This is perfect and I humbly add to this list the following:

Mother
The first guru, the debt owed to whom, one can never repay, in my opinion.

Namaste satay,
your questions are most excellent! Undersanding transcending from theory is a good start, and to experience it is very very humble and simple. Think about diving in a swimming pool... all we do is take the right angle and let go, yes? Gravity takes over and we go inward.
Like that, with meditation, the proper angle is the simple mantra, not complicated, and we let the mind settle down. It does what it does best , graviate to more and more ...that is, silence and inward direction.
This is why this approach is so simple. Having an instructor to teach this is a good thing. Simple, easy and w/o effort - even in the GIta this is pointed out for the one with the balanced mind and no strain , is the one that can gain this transcendental experince. That is, we withdraw ( transcend) then withdraw from the withdrawal ( come back into activity) Like that, rest and activity, just as the universe does on a grand scale we can do , daily.

Regarding Turiya and bhakti
This is a subject this is very rewarding to consider... Why so? when one is established in Turiya , some call cosmic consciousness, Self Realization, one has gone beyond the ego and is established in the SELF. This is Brahman, fullness. One is not filled with ones small self of likes, dislikes, fear, anger, doubt, but can be focused and established in the fullness of being...one pointedness for devotion... Not my will be done but Thy will be done is the orientation at this level of consciousness. This is the glory of Sri Krisna's discussion as we get passed chapters 1-6 and get deeper into the fullness of Being.

I will talk more on this if there is interest... but the mechanics is being able to have a pure mind, that is outrside of the small ego, to give the fullenss of consciousness to HIM that unfolds in devotion in God Consciousness. Its a very beautiful thing the gita, Upanishads are able to discuss... this is my humble desire to unfold this... but to pretend this is the case or mood making without having the entry of turyia, is justl pretending... more on this if you wish and I will add to this discussion. we will talk of God Consciousness or Bhagavat Chetana. I will post this for our review.

patu sarvaih svarupair nah sada sarvatra sama-gah
May the Lord, who is all-pervasive in His various forms, protect us everywhere

satay

06 December 2006, 12:23 AM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste satay,

namaste yajvan,
Thank you for another informative post. you have given me a lot to digest here so I need to reflect on this.

If possible, let's start a new thread on Bhagvad Chetana in vaishnava forum.

I would like to learn more...my glass is empty and the chains have long been dropped (as instructed by osho) which in itself is madness as I wonder here and there without purpose and focus now without the chains that held me in one place!

ps: don't want to hijack Raven's thread though so when you reach a good point in your discussion with Raven where you both are satisfied to move to another...

Raven Chorus

06 December 2006, 02:43 AM

Namast� -

You echo my words re OSHO. His lectures are amazing. To those who like to bad mouth Osho, I request that you pick up a copy of any of his books. Any book has the power to get you hooked to him wanting for more. Some of his books are also available online.

Exactly! (I'm glad to hear that :)). I think what a lot of people don't realise is that Osho is not a philosopher or historian, but someone who's teaching is only to awake others to the fullness of Consciousness. This is why Osho can sound 'unorthodox' or downright contradictory: but who cares! What counts is the effect his teaching can have in transforming you..

I do not think that you should stop. In fact, you should find out what Osho says about this feeling...I remember reading something about it, however, can't remember exactly where and what.

So far, I have not found any reference to it, which is why I am concerned. (And of course, please let me know if you have any relevant reference at hand!...) I have found passages in which Osho which explain that it is possible to feel fear when you first free the mind, and that one should (as you say) persevere - but then I wouldn't like to be going in the wrong direction and get hurt.

The uncomfortable feeling is normal as the mind has been running like a crazy mad house for centuries. A split second of calmness will and should result in this type of feeling, though I have never experienced it myself probably because my mind never becomes blank no matter what I try. Probably, I am trying too hard...and should 'let go' as OSHO would instruct.

Yes - what is odd is that I haven't been trying hard at all. In fact, when this occurred, I had been meditating only intermittantly 'for fun'. But then I really felt like doing it and focused.

I think it is most important to focus on techniques without expecting anything, just doing them like you might be doing any simple task.

One thing my negative experience showed me (whatever it may have been which caused it) is that meditation is amazing and powerful. It is truly amazing that just by making my mind blank for a few seconds I could experience such strong changes (even if for the worse!). At least, now I'm more curious to approach the potentialities of meditation (even if, as I say, I wish to be as cautious as possible as not to get 'burned'...)

name of the book please...

The Book of Secrets, p. 257

ps: don't want to hijack Raven's thread though so when you reach a good point in your discussion with Raven where you both are satisfied to move to another...

I'm not sure this thread now has only one purpose. I guess we're discussing related topics connected to the issue of self-realisation. This is not a problem for me, but it really depends on what the policy of the forum is (I realise this is the Shakta section...)

Shriyash21

06 December 2006, 09:45 AM

Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.

That probably is an anxiety attack.
This is quite a common experience to meditators when they first start out, and it has to be immediately recongised for what it is, and stopped, because yes, it has the potential to lead to mental illness.
You see, many times it happens that that one might consider to be 'witnessing' or 'awareness', actually is nothing but a form of self-conciousness.
Witnessing, cant be done.
You may not realise it, but you were indeed trying.

Its like this.
Suppose you like to sing in the bath.
And you really dont care if you are good or you suck, who is looking anyway?
Its just you, and so you are just doing your thing, humming your tune,totally relaxed.
Now,
suppose you suddenly realise that somebody is peeping into the keyhole of your bath!!
Somebody is actually looking at you!
What happens?
The whole energy changes, you will be more controlled, it will no loger be natural, you will stop singing, but your non-singing will be contrived.
You have forced yourself not to sing, not to utter anything, because someone is watching!

This is what is hapenning when you say the mind went blank.
Temporarily, for the first time perhaps, you mind realises that somebody is looking.
But, this is not the witness looking, it is one part of the mind, watching another part!
That is the reason for your symptoms of uneasiness, because you are trying to split the mind into two, and if not checked, it will lead to schizophrenia.
Trust me, you wont know the difference, unless under the guidance of an advanced seeker.

You see, when real witnessing happens, you mind will have NO clue, because it is totally a different dimension, the witnessing is from a higher dimension, and it dosent interfere with the mental activity.
Your mind can be totally involved with whatever thought process is going on, yet you will know there is something seperate, and this will be a perfectly relaxed state.

BUT, even this first glimpse of witnessing, needs years of initial preparation!
And you cant desire or expect it to happen, because, desire is the barrier, and it was desire to experience something that was the cause of your symptoms, you were expecting something to happen.

Remeber, you felt exhaustion.
Another classic example of willfull trying.
There is a type of awareness that can be generated thru effort, but that is a false type of awareness, and it will dissapear the moment you stop the effort!
It will vanish instantly.
And it will take up energy in the process, so you feel tired.

Witnessing, true witnessing, will give you energy!
You will never be tired,simply because witnessing connects you to the same energy source that you touch in deep sleep, except you are doing this fully aware.

Anyway,........i would suggest to lay off any type of awareness techniques for now, Bhakti is FANTASTIC!!
And really, if you ask me , Bhakti is the BEST path there is!

Raven Chorus

06 December 2006, 11:54 AM

yajvan

06 December 2006, 01:47 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~~~

Namastè to you all -

To be honest, I feel that lately I have much benefited in exchanging ideas in public forums and (privately) with forum members. It is ironic that internet lends itself to the most absurd extremes (like all tools, I guess...).

Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.
Valete!

Namaste Mumukshu ( one desiring moksa)....
This is post one of two... NUmber 2 later today will be on God Consciousness. Knowledge and understanding is key to move forward.
Swami Sivananda says we can restain our breath a thousand times a day, yet to move forward understanding and discriminating ( vivika) is an important tool.

So, lets talk of the 3rd eye and your experience... this point is a energy center ( chakra). Putting ones attention there is fine. it is what one does with the mind at that time is also key. I will not instruct you via this form as it is not my place, but as you venture into this, getting the right sound, the right bija sound ( mantram), it will assist you in your experience.

On the blank mind, is one of transcending the existing level of consciousness. The mind enjoys this and can be groomed over time.
Now,why all the negitive thoughts...? this is the release of stress that happens. The body and mind are tightly coupled...what happens in the mind, happens in the body. Your experience is a stress releaving experience to clear the path of vasanas ( remains and impressions of past actions).

So, the goal is to clear the village of the senses..the nervious system, both physical and subtle levels ( koshas or 5 levels of ones being).

More as the conversation pursues...yet pls consider a bija mantra. If you care for my help, we need to have a conversation by email:
- the right sound/mantra
- coming from the tradition and not me, I do not own these sounds
- your intent (sankaplham)
- having a simple puja or yajya at the local temple, and ask for the
bija mantra from the panditji there, with our recommendation.

I will be sure my email address is posted on the members info ...

Raven Chorus

08 December 2006, 04:03 AM

Namasté Yajvan -

I would certainly be glad to consider a bija mantra. I occasionally recite the Gayatri Mantra, but as my desire is to approach Shakta Sadhana, I think I might benefit more from a mantra specifically directed at developing devotion to the Mother.

I have not consciously chosen, on any 'ideological' or philosophical ground, to worship the Goddess (i.e. goddesses), but my heart has long led me in that direction.

Unfortunately, there is no temple I can visit at the moment for worship or guidance, so any further advice on your part would much be appreciated. Let me emphasise, however, that I am no hurry, and that it is not my intention to intrude upon any of you with my 'spiritual issues'! :)

***

"Devotion frees. Take Ramakrishna... If you look at Ramakrishna you will think that he is just a slave to the goddess Kali, to Mother Kali. He cannot do anything without her permission; he is just like a slave. But no one was more free than him. When he was appointed for the first time as a priest in Dakshineshwar, at the temple, he started behaving strangely. The committee, the trustees gathered, and they said, 'Throw this man out. He is behaving undevotionally.' this happpened because first he would smell a flower and then the flower woud be put at the feet of the goddess. that is against the ritual. A smelled flower cannot be offered to the divine - it has become unpure.
First he would taste the food which was made for the offering, and then he would offer it. And he was the priest so the trustees asked him, 'What are you doing? This cannot be allowed.'
He said, 'Then I will leave this post. I will move out of the temple, but I cannot offer food to my Mother without tasting it. My mother used to taste... whenever she would repare something, she would taste it first and then only would she give it to me. And I cannot offer a flower without smelling it first. So I can go out, and you cannot stop me, you cannot prevent me. I will go on offering it anywhere, because my Mother is everywhere; she is not confined in your temple. So wherever I will be, I will be doing the same thing.'" (taken from Osho, The Book of Secrets p. 273)

http://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/R/Ramakrishna/images/Ramakrishna.jpg

yajvan

08 December 2006, 11:44 AM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namast� Yajvan -

I would certainly be glad to consider a bija mantra. I occasionally recite the Gayatri Mantra, but as my desire is to approach Shakta Sadhana, I think I might benefit more from a mantra specifically directed at developing devotion to the Mother.

Namaste Raven,
Thank you for your note. A few points. Reciting the Gayatri is most auspicious for you and for the family of man. This mantra is excellent and really not entry level, but still a wonderful thing to do.
I mention bija mantras to start off ( Well begun is half done). This grooms the mind, creates clarity and cultures the awareness.
What is also of great import is consistency ( daily practice) , technique, sound , and Ishta chosen that is in line with your goals.

This can be seen from ones Kundali Chakara ( birth chart) and the identificaiton of ones Atmakaraka ( Atman/jiva indicator) as it points to ones Ishta and the suggested mantra... but we start simple, easy, no strain...
My recommendation - take a look at some of the posts on this site to get more of a flavor of the goal. We can then consider a bija if you are open to it that would make sense.

Raven Chorus

14 December 2006, 02:25 AM

Namast� Yajvan -

I have taken some time off, and, as you suggested, have read some more posts on the forum. It seems like I am encountering a few difficulties.

Well, the first thing is that I do not have a birth chart, and that I would not know where to get one (I believe it's a pretty complicated affair...)

Secondly (and perhaps most importantly), as far as I understand, the general consensus - which, incidentally, I also found confirmed by Osho - is that no mantras are to be recited unless specifically given by a spiritual master. As I do not have any guru, I would rather not dabble in things I know little about, and which might potentially prove harmful (so no more 'Gayatri Mantra' for me! :().

I guess the best thing then for me to do would be to continue reading, learn to pray better, and to attempt easier meditation techniques...

satay

14 December 2006, 08:53 AM

(so no more 'Gayatri Mantra' for me! :().

namste Raven,
My apologies for the intrusion, but this caught my eye. I remember when I was in school in India, we recited the Gayatri Mantra in the morning. The whole school did it among other morning activities before the school started for the day in the common playground area. I can say with confidence that I did not receive this mantra from a guru aside from the fact that we 'received' it from our head teacher.

So, in my opinion even though the rule is that mantra should be received from a guru to gain the full spiritual affect, Gayatri can be recited by anyone.

Please anyone correct me if I am wrong. Also, you can search for sarabhanga's posts on this very topic. I will see if I can find the exact post of his dealing with this matter.

atanu

14 December 2006, 12:29 PM

Shriyash21: brilliant reply! I mean it: I can totally understand what you're pointing at. I hadn't quite thought about my experience that way (a part of the mind observing the mind: anxiety, possibly leading to mental problems...), but the way you described it... I can totally relate to. Particularly what you say about expecting a result: the mind is so tricky, that even if I fool myself completely, thinking that I am not expecting any result, in fact I am!

So yeah: I'm not going down that path again. I felt it was 'wrong', and I wouldn't like to loose my wits through meditations (the purpose should rather be the opposite: deep clarity).

And yes: I'm glad you also suggest that Bhakti might be a better option. This is why I began to write in this forum in the first place, to approach Bhakti. (By the way, may I aks what path of Bhakti you follow?) Perhaps, I might also try Vipassana meditation (which someone suggested to me): maybe it's less challenging. Who knows. I also tried some very basic 'concentration' exercises, like focusing on a man-made object (this was actually recommended by Rudolf Steiner, and not with any ultimate transcental goal in mind, but just as an exercise to strengthen oneself.)

I'm glad things are a little clearer for me now. :)

Namaskar Raven,

Shriyash explained it nicely. I wish to add a few points.

It is known that meditation brings to view aspects that were all the time controlling you viciously. So, one day or other, you have to encounter that squarely. Strength of faith and concentration helps one to keep on the path steadfastly.

What I can see is that you possibly tried meditating without keeping the thought of God central.

It is auspicious to know that God residies at Varanasi (the place between two eyebrows above the root of the nose) and then meditate. When one meditates on God there is no way that any harm can come. In fact all poison churned up during the process will be scooped up and consumed by Him.

When one becomes absolutely supportless (it is difficult to express the situation in words but you have experienced a part of it), the well entrenched thoughts of ego preservation become scary -- somewhat akin to a weightless fall situation or, some say, similar to a death situation.

But at that time one must find oneself.

So, I personally do not think that one should take a reverse gear. But I surely feel that one has the option of Nama Japa and/or Pranayama to first strengthen the steadiness.

Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan

14 December 2006, 03:13 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~~~

Namast� Yajvan -

I have taken some time off, and, as you suggested, have read some more posts on the forum. It seems like I am encountering a few difficulties.
Well, the first thing is that I do not have a birth chart, and that I would not know where to get one (I believe it's a pretty complicated affair...)
Secondly (and perhaps most importantly), as far as I understand, the general consensus - which, incidentally, I also found confirmed by Osho - is that no mantras are to be recited unless specifically given by a spiritual master. As I do not have any guru, I would rather not dabble in things I know little about, and which might potentially prove harmful (so no more 'Gayatri Mantra' for me! ).
I guess the best thing then for me to do would be to continue reading, learn to pray better, and to attempt easier meditation techniques...
Namaste and thank you for the note....
re: Birth chart - I can assist. Pls send me your birth info to my home email. you will see the address under members info.
City, State, Country, time of birth ( hours , minutes, seconds if possible).

re: Mantra's - there are multiple points of view here. This goes under mantra shastra and Akshara samudaya or suitability of letters, sounds.
Some posts above point to Gayatri , a most wonderful mantra, that can do only good. Yet if one has the opportunity to gain this from a realized being, it contains more shakti ( energy) and comes well equipped for the sisya ( the student) to use. Proper pronunciation is key yes? in all we do. Tuning a piano, a string instrument, to get the proper vibration, meter, etc. So if this is possible fine. That said, we start simple... a simple bija mantra and not a long multi syllable one .... we allow the mind to work with easy things and culture it. WE can also look at Pra-siddha mantras, that is, exempt from specific rules of Akshara samudaya, in which the gayatri mantra fits.... Yet, my recommendation is still bija mantra to start, to culture the mind to transcend. If you choose to use the gayatri , that is fine, then do it in the prescribed times ( sandhi) of the day, and perhaps a japa. ( see the end of this email, I do not want to switch subjects before finishing this thought)
Bottom line - mantras affect our being. The number of syllables of the mantra influence different parts of our lives and can be seen by ones birth chart. This is the knowledge of Jyotish and Mantra shastra. Lets say a mantra has 8 syllables or phonemes like the astakshari narayana mantra ( Om Namo Narayanaya). The influence is on the 8th house. The 8th house is that of Moksha, and is to assist one to enlightenment. Like that what you choose/or assigned is key ... that is why a one syllable bija mantra is most auspicious, as it affects the first house ( rasi) and improves ones overall being, as the 1st house is ones ascendant which represents a key part of the sisya... You physically, mentally. The first house is our dharma house, connected to ones life-purpose. Perhaps you have a better appreciation of mantra selection from this? We start simple... this is best.
More on mantra shastra later, yet please consider the following:
Meditation times (or Sandhya upasana), for those that mediate, many do their sadhana AM and PM... there are junction points (Sandhya or junction, sandhi) at these times . What's the junction? Twilight or the changing of the sun's position in the sky that can translate to ones meditation experiences. The sun plays a key role in timing everything on earth AND is the atman or soul indicator (Atmakaraka) for all on this planet. Since meditation deals with realizing the SELF ( Atman) , the sun has its influence here AND the sun is the representative ( karaka) of ones 1st house, the lagna or ascendent.
Lets look at a few junction points: Sunrise, noon, sunset and midnight are considered the key sandhya times during the day.
Also note there are these junction points during the 12 months as the sun, surya transits one sign to another; Like that, there are multiple other times, but for now lets look at the following:

Morning is Brahma Muhurta Sandhya
Noon for Vishnu Sandhya
Sunset called Mahesha Sandhya
Midnight called Kali or Turiya Sandhya
So, meditation times are prescribed, and in the beginning, we do AM and PM , Brahma Muhurta Sandhya And Mahesha Sandhya.

Raven Chorus

15 December 2006, 03:38 AM

Namaste -

(...) I remember when I was in school in India, we recited the Gayatri Mantra in the morning. The whole school...

So, in my opinion even though the rule is that mantra should be received from a guru to gain the full spiritual affect, Gayatri can be recited by anyone.

Satay, are you referring here to a 'regular' school? Your story is amazing! As far as I understand, the Gayatri Mantra, of the many mantras, is one which might be recited without Diksha. However, I think different schools of thought hold different opinions, so there is no one line on this issue...

It is known that meditation brings to view aspects that were all the time controlling you viciously.
(...)
What I can see is that you possibly tried meditating without keeping the thought of God central.
(...)
So, I personally do not think that one should take a reverse gear. But I surely feel that one has the option of Nama Japa and/or Pranayama to first strengthen the steadiness.

Thank you for the useful note, Atanu. You see, while I think I understand what you mean, I also encounter a paradox in meditation: to free the mind from thought while "keeping the thought of God central", as you say. Clearly, this is a matter of gaining the necessary spiritual strength to embark on the journey. Without this strength and preparation (which is a certain awareness of God, if only 'psychologically'...), I think certain techniques can be dangerous.

This is why I have gone in 'reverse gear' for the time being. No meditation, in order to meditate better when I'm ready. First I want to make sure I don't get hurt or messed it up attempting certain things. Which is why I am enquiring here about Nama Japa and Bhakti (I haven't quite considered Pranayama yet...)

So, basically, I think we are both saying the same thing. :)

Raven Chorus

15 December 2006, 03:57 AM

Namaste Yajvan -

Birth chart - I can assist. Pls send me your birth info to my home email. you will see the address under members info.

This is really kind of you. I have no idea how complex it is to determine certain data in Vedic astrology, so I wouldn't like to abuse your friendly disposition and waste your time. However, if you think it might not be too much of a bother for you and that it might be useful for me, I would certainly send you what you ask for by email as soon as I find out more about my exact moment of birth (I realise this sounds silly, but I don't quite know when I was born!...)

Thank you also for your information on sandhya upasana - which I knew nothing about, and which I will bear in mind for the future.

Concerning mantras, I can only agree with you that a simple bija mantra would be best for someone like me. However (and pardon my ignorance), are such mantras exempt from akshara samudaya? And would the determination of a bija mantra be connected to my birth-chart? And in what why would it be connected to my Ishta?

My knowledge is very limited and things are getting complicated... :o

yajvan

15 December 2006, 10:41 AM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan -
I would certainly send you what you ask for by email as soon as I find out more about my exact moment of birth (I realise this sounds silly, but I don't quite know when I was born!...)

Thank you also for your information on sandhya upasana - which I knew nothing about, and which I will bear in mind for the future.

Concerning mantras, I can only agree with you that a simple bija mantra would be best for someone like me. However (and pardon my ignorance), are such mantras exempt from akshara samudaya? And would the determination of a bija mantra be connected to my birth-chart? And in what why would it be connected to my Ishta?

My knowledge is very limited and things are getting complicated... :o

Namaste Raven,
you are humble and this is duly noted. Today is Krsna Ekadasi ( that is the dark half ~ Krsna, of the month and its Ekadasi or 10 +1 , the 11day day).
Rsi Vashistha says on these Ekadasi tithi, one can destroy ones sins and blemishes - [My teacher/guru has taught me, the greatest sin is the loss of knowing the SELF] - done by worship, giving donations, fasting, etc. It is a good day to talk of your requests. Please send your birth info once you find the time of birth. We will take a look and see.

re: Bija mantra's - we will see from your chart, and calculate the Ishtadevata, and from this, find His/Her bija and start there , only good comes from ones Ishta. This is 'classic' Jyotish work, that is near and dear to the tradition. One's Chart to point for spiritual guidence. This information is from Parashara muni ( the father of Ved Vayasa), and from rishi Jaimini... the authority on this.
As you would perhpaps say 'Roma locuta est; causa finita est', from St. Auguestine of Hippo.

Also , pls look at the other post, Jyotish - the eyes of the Ved, for few more insights that may nourish/clarify the intellect and round out a few ideas.

Let noble thoughts come to us from every side

- Rig-Veda, 1-89-i

Raven Chorus

15 December 2006, 02:32 PM

Namaste Yajvan -

Your post on Jyotisha was very helpful to give me an idea of what it's all about; although I must confess I have always found astrology extremely puzzling and complicated. It is a tough science and, alas, I am not a very scientifically-minded guy!

Anyway, I'll be glad to accept your kind invitation and send you my birth details. But please allow for a few days: I have to check the details first...

Cheers,

R.

atanu

16 December 2006, 11:42 AM

Namaste -

-----
Thank you for the useful note, Atanu. You see, while I think I understand what you mean, I also encounter a paradox in meditation: to free the mind from thought while "keeping the thought of God central", as you say. ---
So, basically, I think we are both saying the same thing. :)

Yes, we are saying the same thing. But the paradox is not a paradox. To be able to free the mind entails to be able to hold it at will. So ----- No paradox.

Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan

16 December 2006, 01:06 PM

Hari OM
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan -

Your post on Jyotisha was very helpful to give me an idea of what it's all about; although I must confess I have always found astrology extremely puzzling and complicated. R.
Namaste Raven and thank you for your note...

I too find this great science most robust and I am still a student... I have been (humbly) studying this for 12 years, and bow to those that have mastered this part of the ved. These are the ones that deserve all the credit that may bubble up. I am just a sisya, and view myself as entry level in application of Jyotish. That said, and after 12 years of daily study, I am spending much more time with the other shastra's,agma's, etc. to round out the vedic knowledge. It is all coming together for me.
My teacher/guru say's " Knowledge is the greatest purifier" and I can see my studies are starting to bear fruit. How so?
It is quite clear to me that the best Jyotisha is the one with intuition and Ritambhara pragna ( that which only knows the Truth i.e. Satyam).
To this end I focus my studies, meditation, japa, discussions, to learn and evolve. If I can share some of my skills and insights, it will be a blessing, yet my knowledge is still one-legged... until SatChitAnanda brims forth from every pore of my Being, I am still the 'student of life'.

To this I am grateful, that through His grace, I am able to pursue Moksha. All Glory to HIM who breathes out the Ved.

Idam brahma, idam kshatram, ime lokah, ime devah, imani bhutani, idam sarvam yad ayam atma.
"This Source of knowledge; this source of power; all these worlds; all these gods; all these beings; -- All this is just the Self."
SAGE YAJNAVALKYA , BRIHADARANYAKA UPANISHAD