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TTCUSM
27 November 2010, 02:29 PM
Vanakkam Everyone,

Chapter 27 (http://www.owasso.k12.ok.us/webpages/gyankey/files/Earth%20and%20Its%20Peoples%20Ch%2027.pdf) of The Earth and Its Peoples has a very good summary of the causes and consequences of European imperialism during the nineteenth century.

satay
27 November 2010, 02:36 PM
namaste,


Vanakkam Everyone,

Chapter 27 (http://www.owasso.k12.ok.us/webpages/gyankey/files/Earth%20and%20Its%20Peoples%20Ch%2027.pdf) of The Earth and Its Peoples has a very good summary of the causes and consequences of European imperialism during the nineteenth century.

and? What do you want us to do about it?

TTCUSM
27 November 2010, 05:02 PM
namaste,



and? What do you want us to do about it?

Nothing, really.
I just put it here so that we could refer to it in future discussions.

Believer
27 November 2010, 05:35 PM
Nineteenth century Europeans were the smartest people. They realized that people in some other countries needed to be brought up to date to face the menace of 21st century China. So they embarked on this massive effort to educate the poor masses of other lands that they called their colonies and gave them all the infrastructure. This has really facilitated in insulating the colonialists from the threat of emerging economies.

Another thing the colonies provided was masses, where new medicines could be tested with impunity. It has really been a blessing that advances in medicine were made because the brave populations of the colonies volunteered to be the guinea pigs for the new drugs. Without that, we the privileged few would have been left defenseless against the spread of deadly diseases.

H. G. Wells, in his homage to the selfless peoples of the colonies proposed a monument built with funding from the world bank. A blue ribbon panel proposed that verses from the holy Gita be inscribed on the monument. This was opposed by the Abrahamic nations, as they believe more in prophets than the Lord Himself. To them path to God is through His prophets only. The whole issue has been mired in controversy and has been further delayed by the global recession gripping both hemispheres. It is believed that the US Federal Reserve pumping money to the tune of $600 billion might alleviate the situation and remove the monetary obstacle for erecting the monument. May this happen soon!

Eastern Mind
27 November 2010, 05:38 PM
Vannakkamm:

I think you might get and enjoy enjoy more discussion in a history forum. Here is a link to one forum and an article. A google search will get you a lot more. Best wishes.

http://www.historum.com/

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_article/9943/

I may add some more.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
27 November 2010, 06:06 PM
Vannakkam: Curious about this topic, I did some browsing. It is amazing to see that many of the historical inaccuracies are being perpetuated, mostly by Indian sites themselves. However, I am no expert. If there is a feedback form, one could complain. I did to one site just mentioning that AIT has now been disproven, and I though they should take a better look at their site keeping in mind the incorrect Eurocentric view throughout. Right now I wish I was more of an expert. So TTCUSM, since it seems to be of concern to you, I suggest you do that. Certainly if you provide me with some accuracies and corrections to some of the misinformation, I'll email them as well. Perhaps we can do something.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
27 November 2010, 07:44 PM
Hmm, not sure what to make of this. The section on cultural motives for imperialism points out missionaries' desire to abolish slavery in places like Africa and Sati in India (I don't know to what extent Sati was even practiced in India). But they say almost nothing about the negative aspects of missionary work.

TTCUSM
28 November 2010, 08:57 AM
Hmm, not sure what to make of this. The section on cultural motives for imperialism points out missionaries' desire to abolish slavery in places like Africa and Sati in India (I don't know to what extent Sati was even practiced in India). But they say almost nothing about the negative aspects of missionary work.

Page 16 of the chapter contains a quote by an African convert to Christianity that details the negative aspects of missionary work:


There is too much failure among all Europeans in Nyasaland. The three combined bodies—Missionaries, Government and Companies or gainers of money—do form the same rule to look upon the native with mockery eyes. . . . If we had enough power to communicate ourselves to Europe, we would advise them not to call themselves Christendom, but Europeandom. Therefore the life of the three combined bodies is altogether too cheaty, too thefty, too mockery. Instead of “Give,” they say “Take away from.” There is too much breakage of God’s pure law.On the same page, it states that colonialism in Africa actually led to an expansion of Islam:


Christianity proved successful in converting followers of traditional religions but made no inroads among Muslims. Instead, Islam, long predominant in northern and eastern Africa, spread southward as Muslim teachers established Quranic schools in the villages and founded Muslim brotherhoods. European colonialism unwittingly helped the diffusion of Islam. By building cities and increasing trade, colonial rule permitted Muslims to settle in new areas. As Islam—a universal religion without the taint of colonialism—became increasingly relevant to Africans, the number of Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa probably doubled between 1869 and 1914.

sanjaya
28 November 2010, 12:01 PM
Ah, I see I didn't read far enough. Thanks!

Rationalist
28 December 2010, 03:04 PM
I think I remember that chapter as one of the chapters we had to take outline notes on and so forth (it was painful every time they were assigned. 3-4 hours of mind-numbing torture).

The whole point is, European colonialism was responsible for the raping of the world and the rise of Europe. The most of the world is the way it is today due to Colonization/Imperialism.

That book always commented positively on Islam, negatively about Western colonization, Christianity, and India/Hinduism. Don't be too shocked. It is the case with most Western History textbooks. It even made a pathetic attempt to deviate a little from the AIT, by saying there is increasing evidence that IVC was not conquered by Aryans but then saying the AIT occurred in later times. LOL! As for the Sati, before Muslim filth entered India, it was very very very uncommon and very very very localized depending on the particular village/rural area in question. Even then, much of it was voluntary. Once the puSs-lims invaded, it actually (oddly enough) increased (probably to protect them from rape by Muslims). It is one of those practices that arise when religious oppression calls for orthodoxy and preservation of traditions; in just happens that in this case, the results weren't too good. Despite all this, it was still, fortunately, very uncommon and sparsely done.

Arjuni
28 December 2010, 05:43 PM
Namasté, all.

Europe? There's a place called Europe?

Ohhh, WAIT! I think we learned about that back in grade 2! That's the reason Americans set off fireworks in July!

You're never going to make me believe there's really a country called "Africa," though. Or that the 19th century actually existed. Pfft.

Sincerely,
Indraneela
Product of American Education
===
"blah blah blah something about Indra blah blah WORDS TOO MANY WORDS"
O Indrawn Namer.
O Namer Salivary.
(Checked with MS Spell Check)

sanjaya
29 December 2010, 10:23 AM
I think I remember that chapter as one of the chapters we had to take outline notes on and so forth (it was painful every time they were assigned. 3-4 hours of mind-numbing torture).

The whole point is, European colonialism was responsible for the raping of the world and the rise of Europe. The most of the world is the way it is today due to Colonization/Imperialism.

That book always commented positively on Islam, negatively about Western colonization, Christianity, and India/Hinduism. Don't be too shocked. It is the case with most Western History textbooks. It even made a pathetic attempt to deviate a little from the AIT, by saying there is increasing evidence that IVC was not conquered by Aryans but then saying the AIT occurred in later times. LOL! As for the Sati, before Muslim filth entered India, it was very very very uncommon and very very very localized depending on the particular village/rural area in question. Even then, much of it was voluntary. Once the puSs-lims invaded, it actually (oddly enough) increased (probably to protect them from rape by Muslims). It is one of those practices that arise when religious oppression calls for orthodoxy and preservation of traditions; in just happens that in this case, the results weren't too good. Despite all this, it was still, fortunately, very uncommon and sparsely done.

Yeah, I will never know why Westerners suck up to Islam while freely disparaging Hinduism. Even Westerners who openly despise their Christian heritage seem to think that criticizing Islam constitutes racism. Given that Hinduism is more tied to a specific culture than Islam, I wonder why that attitude doesn't carry over when criticizing our religion.

Shanti
29 December 2010, 03:17 PM
Yeah, I will never know why Westerners suck up to Islam while freely disparaging Hinduism. Even Westerners who openly despise their Christian heritage seem to think that criticizing Islam constitutes racism. Given that Hinduism is more tied to a specific culture than Islam, I wonder why that attitude doesn't carry over when criticizing our religion.

This is very true, but I think the fault mainly lies within the Hindu community itself. We (as a whole) tend to let "other's" say what they will about us without loud cries of outrage or demand for truth.

Xtians know that muslims would not allow their faith to be talked down upon and the reverse is true. Their would be press talks, books written to expose lies and/or the truth and such on both sides.

Both xtian and muslim youth are taught starting from a young age not just about their faith but more importantly, how to DEFEND their faith.

I don't see this in the Hindu community. Yes, we are taught to love Bhagwan, we are taught some stories of the Devas, we are taught some slokas and the aarti, but never how to defend against the the slurs that come from muslims and xtians.

They have rewritten our history and our sacred texts so much so that even many Indians and Hindus believe their version.

I wish I were more knowledgeable. I am trying my best to learn as much as I can, but I often don't know enough to distinguish what is really true and what has been twisted.

~S

Shanti
29 December 2010, 03:29 PM
TTCUSM,

I have at least 7 world and/or Indian history texts/books on my bookshelf and they all fall along the same lines.

A couple of children Indian history books I have were written by Indian authors, published in India and even those are very inaccurate.

In fact one is downright derogatory towards Hindus. You know where I bought that book from? My son's Hindu youth camp this past summer!

I was shocked that they would even carry such a book. I told the bookseller, who spoke with the Swamiji and they basically brushed it off. It was unbelievable.

When I had first brought it to the attention of the bookseller, she told me to exchange it for another book. I picked up a book about Krishna instead. She later came back to me and asked for the Krishna book back (that I had in my hand and was reading) and said she had spoken with the higher ups and I could not exchange it for another book because I had underlined with pen in it (I had underlined all the places that were derogatory towards Hindus). She then handed me back the awful "history" book.

When this kind of thing cannot even be handled from within, how can we expect others to respect our faith?

~S

Sahasranama
29 December 2010, 04:24 PM
When I had first brought it to the attention of the bookseller, she told me to exchange it for another book. I picked up a book about Krishna instead. She later came back to me and asked for the Krishna book back (that I had in my hand and was reading) and said she had spoken with the higher ups and I could not exchange it for another book because I had underlined with pen in it (I had underlined all the places that were derogatory towards Hindus). She then handed me back the awful "history" book.
When I was a kid, I used to get books on Hinduism from the library, there were always derogatory remarks and innaccuracies about Hinduism in the books and I always made corrective notes in the book before returning them to the library. Luckily the librarians didn't look inside the book when I returned them :)

Believer
29 December 2010, 07:57 PM
I was shocked that they would even carry such a book. I told the bookseller, who spoke with the Swamiji and they basically brushed it off. It was unbelievable.
It appears that the so called Swamiji was more concerned about raising funds from the sale of books than about the garbage contained in those books. That is what used to turn me off and not care about any of the Swamis in my youth. I know that is not fair, as many of them are genuine and care about what they preach and about Hindu Parampara. But at that age, my young mind could not differentiate between the two.



When I was a kid, I used to get books on Hinduism from the library, there were always derogatory remarks and innaccuracies about Hinduism in the books and I always made corrective notes in the book before returning them to the library. Luckily the librarians didn't look inside the book when I returned them :)


I always enjoyed those remarks in the margins of the books that I borrowed from the library; only I did not know who entered those remarks. Now I know. ;)

Kumar_Das
29 December 2010, 10:56 PM
Namasté, all.

Europe? There's a place called Europe?

Ohhh, WAIT! I think we learned about that back in grade 2! That's the reason Americans set off fireworks in July!

You're never going to make me believe there's really a country called "Africa," though. Or that the 19th century actually existed. Pfft.

Sincerely,
Indraneela
Product of American Education
===
"blah blah blah something about Indra blah blah WORDS TOO MANY WORDS"
O Indrawn Namer.
O Namer Salivary.
(Checked with MS Spell Check)

:confused:

saidevo
30 December 2010, 12:05 AM
namaste.

Some sources that could be useful in knowing the ancient history of India:

'Antiquity and Continuity of Indian History'
(From Swayambhuva Manu to Gupta Dynasty)
by Prasad Gokhale
http://gaurang.org/indian_phil/prasad_gokhale_indian_history.html

'Bharata Kalachakra' (Himalayan Academy)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5080066/introhisddk

'The Cradle of Indian History' by C.R.Krishnamacharyalu
http://www.archive.org/download/cradleofindianhi035472mbp/cradleofindianhi035472mbp.pdf

'On the Chronological Framework for Indian Culture' by Subhash Kak
http://gaurang.org/indian_phil/indian-chronology-subhash-kak.pdf

'Distortions in Indian History'
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11336425/Distortions-in-Indian-History

'India as known to the ancient world' by Gauranganath Banerjee
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13059374/India-as-Known-to-the-Ancient-World-or-Indias-Intercourse-in-Ancient-Times-with-her-Neighbors

'An Introduction To The Study Of Indian History' by D.D.Kosambi
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4447713/An-Introduction-to-the-History-of-India-by-D-D-Kosambi

'Puranas — The source of ancient Indian history' by V.Sundaram
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3104917/puranas

'Identification Of The Historical Dates From Puranic Sources' by Narayan Rao
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13798364/Identification-of-Historical-Dates-From-Puranic-Sources

TTCUSM
31 December 2010, 02:24 PM
Both xtian and muslim youth are taught starting from a young age not just about their faith but more importantly, how to DEFEND their faith.

I don't see this in the Hindu community. Yes, we are taught to love Bhagwan, we are taught some stories of the Devas, we are taught some slokas and the aarti, but never how to defend against the the slurs that come from muslims and xtians.

Why not start now?
We can create a thread somewhere that lists all the arguments used by anti-Hindu groups.