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Maya3
28 November 2010, 07:31 AM
I want to share this article from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/nyregion/28yoga.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&hp

Maya

Eastern Mind
28 November 2010, 08:10 AM
Vannakkam: The debate continues. I thought it might just fade away, but I'm glad it hasn't. Here is the previous thread on it.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6219&highlight=yoga+Hindu

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
28 November 2010, 11:44 AM
Interesting article.

And on a sidenote, I find it telling that Deepak Chopra specifically pitches himself here as being above Hinduism.

Maya3
28 November 2010, 11:57 AM
Deepak Chopra can seem a little arrogant sometimes, I have seen a couple of interviews with him. Sometimes he is good, but he can come off a little pompous.

Anyway, I really like how this article speaks about the misconceptions of Hinduism and I think it is a good idea that we let people know that yoga is Hindu. Also as it said in the article, it doesn´t mean that you have to be Hindu to practice or teach Hatha Yoga, but it should be clear where it comes from.


Maya

Eastern Mind
28 November 2010, 12:01 PM
Vannakkam:

Has anyone here ever been to a Deepak Chopra lecture? Body language and the 'casual afterword' can be very telling as to the true motivations. I have seen several good lecturers at Teachers' conventions through the years. Despite many being great speakers, often the focus afterwords was "Here I am, please BUY my book!, I'll even sign it for you." or a quick departure from the scene altogether. Others were just downright friendly, and relaxed, and hung around casually just being nice.

My take on Deepak without ever being to a lecture is that he is of th efirst type, but I reserve judgment.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
28 November 2010, 01:23 PM
Regarding the topic of the article, I too think it's important for people to recognize that yoga is Hindu. And I think the Hindu American Foundation has the right motivations. Americans often do associate Hinduism with caste and cow/rat worship. We have an immensely rich culture and history, of which yoga is a part, and Hinduism ought to be associated with these things.

As to Chopra, he does strike me as arrogant. But my real issue with him is that in this article, he doesn't even claim anywhere to even be a Hindu. Why would a Hindu deny his own identity? And I'm pretty sure this isn't a case of misrepresentation by the author.

TatTvamAsi
28 November 2010, 01:24 PM
Not only are these ungrateful untouchables (westerners) allowed to practice yoga, they have the gall to comment on its historicity as well! :rolleyes:

Look at this part:


Ms. Desmond believes that yoga originated in the Vedic culture of Indo-Europeans who settled in India in the third millennium B.C., long before the tradition now called Hinduism emerged.

These mlecchas really think they were part of Vedic culture; and that was separate from Hinduism? hahahahahhaha.. they won't even be allowed to wash the floors of the temples. They could around back so that they can get last year's prasadam; that's what these animals deserve.

Do these apes know that we Hindus, I mean, Indians, taught them how to count as well? Those zeros in their paychecks, I mean, lack thereof, were also invented by Hindus.

Kudos to Aseem Shukla and others to put these cultural terrorists in their places. Cultural thievery, misappropriation, and denigration should be stopped at all costs, by whatever means necessary! ;)

TatTvamAsi
28 November 2010, 01:28 PM
Why would a Hindu deny his own identity? And I'm pretty sure this isn't a case of misrepresentation by the author.

It isn't. He denies his Hindu identity to appease those untouchables he "teaches". Those corpse-worshiping mlecchas are so dense and stupid, they don't know anything about India or Hinduism. If he were to emphasize his identity, it will affect his bottom line quite significantly. Remember, Chopra is a peddler of Quantum Quackery; a mish-mash of gobble-de-gook to drugged out, hippie, worthless mlecchas who have nothing better to do than sleep with 10 people a day and call it "TAYNTRAAA".

Also, on a side note, on Larry King Live, Chopra once was asked what "religion" he was, to which he replied, "I believe in Advaita". LOLOL.. He conveniently left out what that was a part of.

Eastern Mind
28 November 2010, 01:40 PM
Vannakkam:

I agree with Sanjaya and others.. Kudos to HAF. The gobbledy-gookers (and it should be noted that Brother Deepak is by no means alone with theft of Advaita, yoga, energy everywhere, etc. .. he stands out as a greater denier just because of his name) see "Hindu' as a curse word just like 'voodoo' might be because the leftover remnants of brutal demonisation. But I'd like to bet if some survey showed that Hindu Americans were gaining ground in dispelling those myths, that Deepak and others would be the first ones to jump on a new 'Hindu' bandwagon. I see not much more than $$$.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
28 November 2010, 02:16 PM
Vannakkam: The more I look into it, the more disturbing it becomes. I went to Amazon.com and typed in such words as 'Advaita' 'reincarnation' and even 'Sanskrit' on their search menu. It is indeed very rare to see the word Hindu used at all, and the vast majority of writers at least have western names, although there is no way of verifying their inner thinking. Talk about Grand Theft Hindu!

Being a writer just now attempting to find an agent or publisher for my childrens' book, I was actually advised that first you should discover what is selling! Then write something on that. Nothing at all about writing what you WANT to write about, like something to do with what turns your creative mind! So the God of consumerism rules.

I feel like making a huge billboard beside the road beside our temple, and stating that the source Sanskrit, Yoga, etc can all be found over here. Sheesh!

Aum Namasivaya .... (duh, oh yeah, that just means 'be at peace', don't really know its origin, but I've heard it sung somewhere)

Ramakrishna
28 November 2010, 11:52 PM
Namaste all,

Like Eastern Mindji, I thought this debate was fading away, but I was pleasantly surprised to see it on the front page of the New York Times yesterday.

The writer makes a good point in pointing out how most Americans view yoga as a part of "Indian wisdom". Once you use the 'H' word, they respond with this and also bring up garbage like the AIT...

I also like how the founder of HAF points out the deeper purpose of this Take Yoga Back campaign: for a new generation of Hindus to be proud of what they are and all that their religion has given to humanity and to find their identity as Hindus.

I am glad to see that this campaign is not going away, and it is even gaining more publicity now!

Jai Sri Krishna

Ramakrishna
28 November 2010, 11:57 PM
But my real issue with him is that in this article, he doesn't even claim anywhere to even be a Hindu. Why would a Hindu deny his own identity? And I'm pretty sure this isn't a case of misrepresentation by the author.


It isn't. He denies his Hindu identity to appease those untouchables he "teaches". Those corpse-worshiping mlecchas are so dense and stupid, they don't know anything about India or Hinduism. If he were to emphasize his identity, it will affect his bottom line quite significantly. Remember, Chopra is a peddler of Quantum Quackery; a mish-mash of gobble-de-gook to drugged out, hippie, worthless mlecchas who have nothing better to do than sleep with 10 people a day and call it "TAYNTRAAA".

Also, on a side note, on Larry King Live, Chopra once was asked what "religion" he was, to which he replied, "I believe in Advaita". LOLOL.. He conveniently left out what that was a part of.

Namaste all,

We all know he doesn't publicly say he's a Hindu, but is he even really a Hindu? The article refers to him as a "New Age writer", he believes in the garbage that is the Aryan Invasion Theory, and he has called Hinduism too "tribal" and "self-enclosed" to claim ownership of yoga.

The first time I saw him was for a few minutes on television on some panel and he made some great logical and statistical arguments supporting reincarnation. I respected him after that. However, now I have lost respect for the man...

Jai Sri Krishna

TatTvamAsi
04 December 2010, 02:47 AM
Namaste all,

We all know he doesn't publicly say he's a Hindu, but is he even really a Hindu? The article refers to him as a "New Age writer", he believes in the garbage that is the Aryan Invasion Theory, and he has called Hinduism too "tribal" and "self-enclosed" to claim ownership of yoga.

The first time I saw him was for a few minutes on television on some panel and he made some great logical and statistical arguments supporting reincarnation. I respected him after that. However, now I have lost respect for the man...

Jai Sri Krishna

Namaste Ramakrishna,

Do you have a source for that? I mean, I know DC is an absolute idiot, but I didn't know he was that low.

Suhag Shukla has written another great piece on HuffingtonPost regarding Hinduism and Yoga.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suhag-a-shukla-esq/the-origins-and-ownership_b_791129.html

Namaskar.

Sahasranama
04 December 2010, 04:46 AM
That's a great article, Deepak Chopra is a dissapointing figure trying to disassociate yoga and ayurveda from Hinduism for the sake of his wallet.

sanjaya
04 December 2010, 10:58 AM
Namaste all,

We all know he doesn't publicly say he's a Hindu, but is he even really a Hindu? The article refers to him as a "New Age writer", he believes in the garbage that is the Aryan Invasion Theory, and he has called Hinduism too "tribal" and "self-enclosed" to claim ownership of yoga.

The first time I saw him was for a few minutes on television on some panel and he made some great logical and statistical arguments supporting reincarnation. I respected him after that. However, now I have lost respect for the man...

Jai Sri Krishna

I'm not even sure why "new age" would have anything to do with the oldest practiced religion in the world. From what I can tell the stuff Deepak Chopra writes and talks about isn't Hinduism, it's weird, wishy-washy garbage pandering to lazy Americanism.

Eastern Mind
04 December 2010, 01:45 PM
Vannakkam: If you take a look at his Wiki biography, its pretty British in the beginning, until he encounters Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. So I am wondering if anyone knows if the Maharishi also distanced himself from Hinduism. Certainly his followers in my small town in Canada did. (During the Beatle enhanced days) there was lots of chat about meditation and a mantram, but I certainly can't ever recall the H word ever coming up.

Maybe someone knows.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
04 December 2010, 02:02 PM
I'm not even sure why "new age" would have anything to do with the oldest practiced religion in the world. From what I can tell the stuff Deepak Chopra writes and talks about isn't Hinduism, it's weird, wishy-washy garbage pandering to lazy Americanism.

I love the sound of that word "americanism" but how do you define it?

You are absolutely right, what these Americans are practicing has hardly anything to do with yoga. It's more appropiate to call it "yoga inspired" wishy washy garbage.

That reveals a problem in this campaign to take back yoga. We don't want to take back the wishy washy garbage, do we? What we need to do is to motivate Hindus to practice yoga, instead of letting the westerners take care of the lineage. If more Hindus would practice yoga, we can give an authentic Hindu interpretation to yoga. We can't ask that of the "wishy washy garbage" practising americans, can we? That fits right into wishy washy american wishful thinking. Westerners will look for their own meanings in yoga. To take yoga back, we, Hindus, need to start practicing and teaching it.

-Why is there a church in every city that teaches yoga, but mandirs don't teach yoga?
-Why are all yoga teachers in the west non Hindus?
-Why do a lot of westerners think that yoga is a buddhist practice that came from China?

Sure, there are few exceptions.

If we want to take back yoga, we can not sit in our chair and expect the americans to give it back. That's not going to happen. I would say, let them do their new age fantasy, tree hugging practices if they want to. Let's take yoga back, by practicing authentic yoga.

Eastern Mind
04 December 2010, 02:19 PM
Vannakkam:

So where do you find yoga that isn't whitewashed? Aren't most of the Yoga ashrams in India catering to westerners? I actually don't know the answer to this, but I know a ton of westerners head off to India, not to visit temples, but to find yoga ashrams. So even a Hindu might have to go to a westernised ashram nowadays. I'm not so sure.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
04 December 2010, 02:37 PM
That's true, I think the westernisation has more to do with dissasociation from other practices of yoga and looking at asana practice in isolation. To make it whole again, asana needs to be reintegrated into practices from both hatha yoga (pranayama, mudra, bandhas etc) and other Hindu practices like devotion to Hindu deities, studying of Hindu scriptures and philosophy. These aren't things we can ask of the westerners, we have to do it ourselves.

Westerners learn yoga without much purpose other than getting fit or healthy, looking cool doing poses and what not. But there are good reasons for Hindus to practice yoga. Padmasana for example is great to learn for anyone who does puja, japa, meditation. A lot of pundits (especially those who are living a western lifestyle) can save themselves knee, hip and back problems, if they practiced some asanas. Many western teachers don't pay a lot of attention to teaching preparations for proper sitting postures. They know how to do these things, but because they are not Hindu, they think it's of no use to sit in padmasana for hours. Meanwhile, a lot of Hindus don't put much importance to their posture while they are doing pujas and just sit out the pain. I think taking back yoga will be more of a reintegration process, rather than trying to change what the americans are doing.

Maya3
04 December 2010, 10:35 PM
I don't agree, there are a lot of very devoted American yogi's in the US who are extremely spiritual and devoted.

Both my Ashram and my Temple are excellent examples of this, my temple has Hatha yoga classes every day of the week.
My Ashram has several non Indian Sanskrit Scholars as well as Indian ones, an excellent Indian School of Dance, Indian Music School, Sanskrit classes, Hatha Yoga School, we have many Americans and people from all over the world.

I think it is really unfair to say that Americans are shallow and not taking yoga seriously. Yes they exist, but certainly not all.

Maya

Sahasranama
05 December 2010, 04:06 AM
Your temple is probably the exception to the rule in the yoga world. Most other yoga teachers are very serious, but mostly about asana, a little bit of pranayama, even less about meditation and not about Hinduism at all. I am not denying the exceptions to the rule, like probably the people in your ashram. But look at all the yoga teachers and students in the west and the majority is not like you describe.

How many westerners speculate about energies moving in the chakras, without devotion to Shakti? Or chant aum without faith in the vedas? How many chant mantras to put them in a good mood, instead of chanting mantras out of faith for the Hindu deities? How many claim to be advaita vedantins, without giving any importance to the prasthana trayam? If we look at the majority of so caled yoga practicioners in the west, the people who do have faith in Hinduism are in the minority. I think that is fine, we cannot ask them to become Hindus, if they are not ready for that. किं मिष्टान्नं खरशुखराणाम् kiṁ miṣṭānnaṁ kharaśukharāṇām. But if yoga is to be practiced properly, it can only be done so fully integrated in Hinduism. Sure, there are also westerners who realise that, that is not something I want to deny. I would not want to imply that yoga is only good in India, it depends on the mindset, is it Hindu or not, that's the question. I also don't want to deny the knowledge yoga teachers have of asana and pranayama practice, but that knowledge is out of context without knowledge of how these practices influence the marmas and nadis and prepare for higher practices of yoga which are Hindu in nature. This is not the fault of the westerners though, even BKS Iyengar was criticised by his guru for putting too much emphasis on asana. Many westerners start with the best of intentions, but are misled by universalists.

Eastern Mind
05 December 2010, 09:41 AM
Vannakkam:

I second Sahasranama. I did a brief search on my city's Yoga studios. A cursory glance shows little acknowledgment to the H word.

http://www.yogadirectorycanada.com/studios.php?c=Edmonton&p=ab

Aum Namasivaya

Arjuni
05 December 2010, 11:32 AM
I'm basing the following on my own experiences with Western yoga classes - participating and talking to others - to say that yoga without Sanatana Dharma is incomplete and pointless.

To give a long example: one arrives to a typical yoga class and begins. The inexplicable chant of 'breeeaaaathe' is repeated frequently by the instructor, but a new student does not know just how to breathe or when, and meditation and pranayama are rarely taught. The postures therefore are more difficult than necessary, sometimes even unsafe (as some instructors do not understand that beginners are not yet ready for certain poses, may even push on a person's body to deepen a stretch). The Sanskrit names are sometimes used, never (in my experience) explained, and it seems rather odd to be doing exercises with names like "Downward-Facing Dog" and "Crow." Sometimes lectures are given on practicing yoga outside of the classroom; they seem like self-help books read aloud.

Each time the class finishes, one feels light, healthful, and better somehow, and wishes to continue that feeling. But over time, it feels almost oddly self-indulgent; shouldn't exercise be painful, sweaty, and difficult? Shouldn't fitness justify eating all of the cakes and cookies one wishes, instead of producing this irritating desire for salad and fruit? My goodness, what will happenif this keeps up? And why all of this 'breeeaaaathe' anyway? Breeeaaaathing certainly doesn't make the traffic go faster in the morning...and so on, until yoga becomes an easy thing to drop from the routine, because it's so unlikethe rest of the daily grind as to feel foreign and superfluous. The body and breath are learning, but the mind and spirit aren't taught how to integrate the lessons into daily life, or even what the lessons are.

Only when yoga is done as a Hindu does it become a rich, truthful, and rewarding experience. All of that breathing and moving has a purpose beyond attending a workout class; it fills a deeper need in everyday life beyond a vaguely-defined ideal of "calm." The postures take on new life and meaning; Simhasana is fierce and strong, for example, and not "that ridiculous pose with the tongue out." The Devas are suffused in each and every asana, their lessons, their stories. This is the divine gift of yoga: a path to the Supreme, a realisation of divinity with body and breath.

It is sad to read of well-meaning people who are interested in yoga practice or even very dedicated to it, but who are missing out on that full experience because they're not told the truth about its origins and purpose. (Or because, like some of the folks in that article, they deny it.) It seems like setting a layperson in the middle of a professional biology lab or mechanic's shop; one may have all of the tools in the world at one's fingertips, but without the proper knowledge of what they are, how to use them, and why one should use them, it's easy to mess with them for a while and then lose interest, or else build something with them but not necessarily anything useful or good. (/excessively long simile)

(And oh goodness, Deepak Chopra. I tried to like his stuff, but The Return of Merlin was unreadable, and I was officially 'done' with his work when the India Authentic comics presented Indra as a sort of Indian Tarzan.)

Indraneela
===
"I wait the power of one like thee, O Indra, gifts of a Helper such as thou art, Hero.
Strong, Mighty God, dwell with me now and ever."
Om Indrāya Namaḥ.
Om Namaḥ Śivāya.

Eastern Mind
05 December 2010, 11:51 AM
Vannakkam: Perhaps a parallel is whats happened to the Oriental martial arts when taken away from its original context of mind/body control and self defense. Now we have 18 000 people cheering angrily for one person to beat the **** out of another.

My wife and I did attend a 'yoga' class many years ago. I was just struck by how angry and bitter the old German woman was. Tough as nails. Yes she was good at the poses, but so are gymnasts.

What happened to the theory of becoming a better person? We need blessings of deities, Gurus, and softer bhakti. We need techniques like watching your own mind think and doing a gentle self analysis of your own anger, lust, etc. Stretching doesn't cut it. I'll stand or prostrate in front of Gods and Guru any day before I pay money for stretching exercises. My wife does a simple routine of hatha yoga daily. I really should too.

But hey, to each his own.

Aum Namasivaya

TatTvamAsi
12 December 2010, 12:30 PM
Vannakkam: Perhaps a parallel is whats happened to the Oriental martial arts when taken away from its original context of mind/body control and self defense. Now we have 18 000 people cheering angrily for one person to beat the **** out of another.


EM,

That is an excellent analogy. That is exactly what has happened to AsanA outside of India. Animals can only go so far; too bad that is not the first lesson of yOgasUtrA.

Sahasranama
16 December 2010, 02:12 AM
Great website about authentic yoga.

http://www.classicalyoga.org/index.php

hrdayananda
16 December 2010, 12:33 PM
Not only are these ungrateful untouchables (westerners) allowed to practice yoga[....]

These mlecchas really think they were part of Vedic culture[...]. they won't even be allowed to wash the floors of the temples. [...] that's what these animals deserve.[...]Do these apes know that we Hindus, I mean, Indians, taught them how to count as well?

You sound just like the jews claiming they're the only chosen people of God?

Adhvagat
16 December 2010, 12:50 PM
My father is implementing Yoga as a subject in the college he teaches and he's organizing a post-graduation course... I'm proud the basic tenets of morality and spirituality are there! It would be adharmic to remove this for palatability. In the course there will be both Shaiva and Gaudiya Vaishnava teachers.

The best part is: Everyone is loving it!

Om Tat Sat

TatTvamAsi
18 December 2010, 03:12 AM
You sound just like the jews claiming they're the only chosen people of God?

jews were slaves. Last time I checked, Hindus were never slaves to anyone.

Chosen? LOL.. for what? Cleaning toilets? that's apt.

Guess what? You're chosen too! I choose you to fetch my shoes and bring me some masala chai. Actually, I'm hungry as well. Grab some samosas on the way! On the double dammit! And, don't forget the chutney! :D

Rationalist
19 December 2010, 02:11 PM
Want to know why Westerners don't give a damn about whom yoga belongs to?

First of all, Westerners have been beating the **** out of themselves for centuries with their demonic religions and propensity of violence. As a result, they eventually developed weapons and technology they could use to wipe each other out with greater efficiency (this, in the words of Gandhi, is a test of "civilization"). Then ideas from the rest of the civilized world started to filter in and they started to discover "new" ideas and the world around them. By that time, the rest of the world had long been in decline and this gave those Asuras plenty of leeway to conquer and loot other civilizations (with their superior weapons and incumbent advantages). They eventually managed to finance their own rise to the top of the world at the expense of the rest. Today, everyone looks at the material affluence of the West and credits every invention/idea/philosophy/blahblah to them because they cannot fathom anymore (especially with the Western propaganda laden education system) how the rest of the world is at their present state if they really did discover "this and that." The rest of the countries of the world are still trying to recover from the destructive influence of the Western imperialism, white supremacist scorn, propaganda (dealing with the civilized or uncivilized characteristics of nations and whether this or that nation invented this or that), and etc. So to us Indians, which have suffered heavily from all of this, it matters greatly where the credit is due. To the ungrateful, ostentatious prevaricate, demon-spawn, whites, it matters not, because its a win-lose situation either way, with the secularism ideology eventually triumphing in disassociating Yoga from its Hindu roots and Westerners eventually claiming it to have reached its true extent and heights in the West (and hence, beholden to the West alone; same story with "Arabic" numerals).

Moral of the story? Never give anything to the West because they will eventually **** it up, claim its theirs, and use it against you.

TheOne
25 January 2011, 01:24 PM
Sorry to bump but here's another link
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/25/fight-emerges-over-yogas-religious-roots/

I agree that the west steals from the east, repackages it and calls it something new and I admit for some time I was guilty of this too.

There were hundreds of times in my life when I(in all my western arrogance) looked at eastern cultures and just laughing at them and their "backward ways". The only thing I ask from my brothers & sisters is forgiveness because now I know the folly of my ways and hope to "make right" my karma.

Namaste

Believer
25 January 2011, 01:59 PM
The only thing I ask from my brothers & sisters is forgiveness because now I know the folly of my ways and hope to "make right" my karma.

We are no better than you.
The only person you should seek forgiveness from is yourself.