Wickednesses of the Mind for Meditation (devotion)

[jasdir]

Mind forbids one to indulge in meditation(devotion) by way of tiredness, laziness, sleep, idleness, wickednesses etc. Sometimes it says that it will devote time in the morning and fails to get up, if in case it gets up in time then it says to sleep a little more as enough time is there, to attend the work the next day may be a problem, goes to sleep and when gets up it is too late. Sometimes looks at the watch thinking that the time may have been over by now.

Meaning thereby that the mind forbids indulging in practice. It has overpowered us since ages and has been dictating us. If a man, nowadays takes land to cultivate from the landlord for a year or two then he does not vacate the land. So, likewise the mind who has overpowered us since ages, how can it vacate so easily ? Inspite of listening to the arguments of the mind one should indulge in meditation. When the mind poses hindrance then it should be punished by giving more time to repetition on that day.

One should try to indulge in repetition sitting on the same ‘Asan’ and as far as possible it should not be changed. Starting from half an hour repetition time should be increased to two and a half hours because for a time less than this the mind fails to still. One will rule the mind if one keeps on doing practice continuously. As the cream if milk is ready only when the milk is boiled at a low pace without stirring it. Stirring makes the cream of the milk so. Similarly sitting on the same Asan, increasing and attention goes within slowly and steadily and one starts getting pleasure. If the attention is concentrated at shivneter, one gets unparalleled pleasure, whose sample in the outside world is not possible to have. Thereafter the mind itself starts compelling for meditation.

_/\_Jasdir.

[yajvan]

　
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Mind forbids one to indulge in meditation(devotion) by way of tiredness, laziness, sleep, idleness, wickednesses etc. Sometimes it says that it will devote time in the morning and fails to get up, if in case it gets up in time then it says to sleep a little more as enough time is there, to attend the work the next day may be a problem, goes to sleep and when gets up it is too late. Sometimes looks at the watch thinking that the time may have been over by now.
_/\_Jasdir.

Can you be so kind as to offer śāstra and/or the śloka-s on which your post is based?

praṇām

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Jasdir: I find wickedness a very odd choice of words within the context of SD. Perhaps you can explain how this term got here.

Aum namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I offer the following for one's consideration on what the mind will or will not do, wickedness and the like.

If we look to the bhāgavad gītā , chapter 4, 36th śloka kṛṣṇa-ji informs us , even the most sinful ( most sinful should qualify as wicked, no?)
of all sinners you would cross over all evil by the raft of knowledge alone.

Chapter four talks of various yajña-s and how many approach this via various techniques. These techniques engage the mind...
hence one prevails over the sloth or dullness of the mind, even the 'most sinful' can apply themselves. We see this same theme
in the mahābhārata ( happy to offer the parvan as requested).

It is the subject at hand in the to patañjali’s yogadarśana and the teachings therein : The wise know we are starting with a
fluctuating mind. This is where we begin.

Yet there is another view that is extremely insightful and valuable (to me) to consider from the garuḍa purāṇa (2.47.52).
apavitraḥ pavitrau vā
sarvāvastām gataupi vā |
yaḥ smarat pundarīkākśam
sa bhāhyābhyantaraḥ suciḥ ||

What does this say? ( in brief)
Whether pure or impure, whether all places are permeated by purity or impurity, whoever opens himself to the Lotus
Eyed One gains inner and outer purity.

In a nut shell, the one that opens him/her self - moves to, puts oneself in contact with, remembers, experiences or 'sees' (sūci) the Lotus-eyed One (puṇḍarīka) , then this person will gain inner and outer purity i.e. bhā or luster, light, will manifest within this person. We are this 'person' the adhvanīya, a traveler, the person on the path.

This Lotus-eyed One (puṇḍarīka) is Viṣṇu or Śiva. Puṇḍarīka पुण्डरीक is a lotus-flower, esp. a white lotus expressive of beauty;
and we know 'eyed' is akṣa अक्ष. So Pundarīkākśa the white-lotus (puṇḍarīka) + eyed (akṣa अक्ष) is the puṇḍa पुण्ड the mark or a
sign of Viṣṇu or Śiva.

This is 'code'
This is considered saṁketa - a hint, a indication, a symbol. But of what? Pundarīkākśa and its'mark' is pure awareness, of
unboundedness, of būmān - the fullness of the Absolute, the SELF. It is by opening oneself to the fullness of pure awareness that
one gains inner and outer purity. This is anugraha (grace, favor) that is offered (su - to grant or bestow) by Pundarīkākśa, allowing this
to manifest in one's daily life.

You see, doesn't matter if you are pure or impure ( this infers mind & actions ) to start, as your practice continues by the virture of
what you are opening yourself up to, purifies the aspirant over time. One only need to look to the story of vālmīki-ji¹ .

praṇām

words
vālmīki - the celebrated kavi (author/ poet) of the rāmāyaṇa . His beginnings was that of a common highway robber. He was befriended by the wise ( who he was planning to rob no doubt). They convinced him to mend his ways. He asked for their assistance. As the story goes they gave him a mantra to purify his being. Yet for his weak mind, he said that mantra was too hard to remember (rāmā); So the sages changed the mantra (mā-rā or rāmā backwards).

[jasdir]

Can you be so kind as to offer śāstra and/or the śloka-s on which your post is based?

The post is based on my own practical experience,

Yajvan ji, Respect you.

_/\_"Parnam" by Jasdir.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté jasdir,


The post is based on my own practical experience,



Thank you for letting us know. It assists with the conversation - one's opinion based upon personal experiences.

If you are open to suggestions , maybe starting from this level and letting the reader know your post is based upon obserations, personal experinces or even ~ I was thinking~ notion, this will assist us in asking better questions.

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste Jasdir, Yajvan and EM,

Imho, Jasdir's views are correctly expressed. May be, he should have used slighly better words ... nevertheless it does conveys its mesage loud and clear.

Mind is projection from Self-turned-outward. In this condition the Self can have any one of the two states which are described in Maandukya Upanishad. These states are with desires and an ego-self which considers itself different from "others" .... and it tries to satisfy this hunger of desires with the mouths explained in the upanishad. The more the clinging to this "ego-self" ... the more the desires ... the more the fear ... the more the scheming against for achieving something which one doesn't have or to protect what one possesses. Due to these desires, fear, enjoyment (on fulfilment of desires), pain and sufferings (getting what one doesn't want or losing what one loves etc.), scheming & above all, the impressions carried from waking experience make the mind restless. This restlessness brings thought-waves. Continuous production of series of these thought-waves become our die-hard habit carried from several births and also due to our activities in this birth.

This habit of mind stops us from attaining deep state of meditation & there lies its "wickedness". Jasdir, imo, is trying to say only this. In fact, the restless mind with desires, fear etc. is our enemy because it takes us away from our true nature and also takes us to lower states of painful existence. Lord Krshna says in BG, "Even if you happen to be the worst of sinners, you will surely go across all sins by the raft of Knowledge". How does the sin comes into picture here when the Atman is always pure without any blemish ? Due this "wicked (i.e. restless ... running after objects of desires) mind" ! :)


OM

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Devotee and Jasdir: Thank you. Regarding just one of the excuses (time) to not meditate, Swami used to ask? Do you have time to brush your teeth? Time to shower? So yes, I believe I get it.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ekanta]

Namaste jasdir et.al. (Im not entirely clear about the purpose of the thread)

Yoga sutra tells us about vrittis (modifications of the mind/citta)... how we replace "bad" vrittis with virtuous ones and finally go beyond vrittis. Hence all the practice and regularity of it... to make it happen.

You say " two and a half hours" is need to still the mind. OK, but this will variate between people, depending on sadhana in this and former lives.

Then there is the other tricky part... even if the mind is completely still and there is a tremendous peace, it might just be that the mind is withdrawn to the seed-state* and temporarily silenced. Yet "staying" here (in the balance) and continue to practice (be alert), new vrittis are established etc. (which are good compared to the ones before)

Allow me to post a few lines from the Mandukya (Upanishad) Karika which I find rather good (there are a lot more...) (vrittis here are called alāta "fire-brand" or spanda "vibration" or cala "moving")
3.41 The mind is to be brought under Control by undepressed effort; it is like emptying the ocean, drop by drop, with the help of a blade of kusa grass.
3.42 The mind distracted by desires and enjoyments should he brought under control by proper means; so also the mind enjoying pleasure in inactivity (laya)*. For the state of inactivity is as harmful as the state of desires.
3.43 Turn back the mind from the enjoyment of desires, remembering that they beget only misery. Do not see the created objects, remembering that all this is the unborn Atman.
3.44 If the mind becomes inactive, arouse it from laya; if distracted, make it tranquil. Understand the nature of the mind when it contains the seed of attachment. When the mind has attained sameness, do not disturb it again.
3.45 The yogi must not taste the happiness arising from samadhi; he should detach himself from it by the exercise of discrimination. If his mind, after attaining steadiness, again seeks external objects, he should make it one with Atman through great effort.
3.46 When the mind does not lapse into inactivity and is not distracted by desires, that is to say, when it remains unshakable and does not give rise to appearances, it verily becomes Brahman.

* seed-state or laya (sleep): is defined as deep sleep (pada 3), where there is no duality (mind/dream) but still non-perception of reality (atman) and hence its a state of ignorance. This can also be achieved in meditation and hence we are told not to enjoy it (settle for it) in 3.42 as its a perception of duality.

[jasdir]

3.41 The mind is to be brought under Control by undepressed effort; it is like emptying the ocean, drop by drop, with the help of a blade of kusa grass.


How can one measure his/her devlopment that how much he/she has brought "Mind" under control ? OR, How can one test that, for how long he/she can stay disconneted with this outer world & body.

Sitting on "Meditation" is the method to measure the devlopment of Mind's love towards "God".

In fact, this measurement devlops one's faith towards spiritual progress to do more & more.


3.42 The mind distracted by desires and enjoyments should he brought under control by proper means; so also the mind enjoying pleasure in inactivity (laya)*. For the state of inactivity is as harmful as the state of desires.


It means this is not the path of hurry, one should disconnect himself/herself from this outer world & body slowely with day by day practice,

Our inactivity(dreams) prooves that how much we are connected with outer world & its pleasures, if one sees the dreams of enjoy pleasures during daylight than how it is possible to see the dreams of "God" during night or in the state of inactivity (sleep).


3.43 Turn back the mind from the enjoyment of desires, remembering that they beget only misery. Do not see the created objects, remembering that all this is the unborn Atman.


These are the rememberings & truth which helps us to turn the face of our "Mind" towards "God" leaving these false wordly desires,

How can one sit on Meditations if a party is going on at Home, and other family members are enjoying the party, So these True rememberences of thinking that ends of desires are misery etc..., are helpful in these types of conditions to devlop our Meditations.

As a result this helps one to sit on long meditations.


3.44 If the mind becomes inactive, arouse it from laya; if distracted, make it tranquil. Understand the nature of the mind when it contains the seed of attachment. When the mind has attained sameness, do not disturb it again.


Yes! In starting this also happens during sitting on "Meditations",
Only one who practice "Meditations" can understand these states.


3.45 The yogi must not taste the happiness arising from samadhi; he should detach himself from it by the exercise of discrimination. If his mind, after attaining steadiness, again seeks external objects, he should make it one with Atman through great effort.


These lines indicates the instructions only for those who have reached on the first stage of "Meditation" called Thirdeye or shivnater or Trikuti or Sahasdalkaval,

As there is net of time & illusion in this outer world, similarly there is more big net of time & illusion on this first stage of inner spiritual plane (During Samadhi) which is more dangerous to entangle the Soul.

Means: One gets entangled in illusion by obtaining "Ridhi-sidhis", & waste their powers by showing mircals in this outer world, which is the biggest barrier for spiritual devlopment,

So as a result the progress stops.

So these lines gives the instruction that one should not leave the practice until the soul reaches final destination (God) which is still quiet far because there are still more stages inbetween.


3.46 When the mind does not lapse into inactivity and is not distracted by desires, that is to say, when it remains unshakable and does not give rise to appearances, it verily becomes Brahman.


Our soul is covered in three bodies: Asthual, Suksham & Karan (Physical, Subtle & Gender)

Basically there are three stages of "Meditation"
On the first stage "Asthual" body is removed.(cover of flesh & bones)
On the second stage "Suksham" body is removed.(cover of identity)
On the third stage "Karan" body is removed.(cover of male/female identity)
On the fourth step only pure Soul is Left.

These lines indicates the fourth stage where "Soul" becomes free from all three covers, on this stage one is true to be called as Brahman, because from here all creations takes place which is also called as "Brahmlok" after "Brahmlok" there is "Par-Bhram" which is the place of "Saints".


You say " two and a half hours" is need to still the mind. OK, but this will variate between people, depending on sadhana in this and former lives.

Ekanta ji, Everything is in Meditation, Every mystry is in Meditation,
There is lot of difference in Doing & Saying.

Mare talking & reading books cannot gives us the true knowledge, i am sure if you are serious in your practice, slowely this can totally change the picture of your spirituality,

But practice, practice, practice and only practice to devlop your love towards God, & try to break your connections from this outer world but not physically only heartly, pay all your wordly duties but keep your heart only open for God.

But mare talkings & argues cannot give us anything.

_/\_Jasdir.

[Ekanta]

jasdir... its rare that people talk about their own experience. If one do its treated with suspicion. I prefer to do relate to shastras. Shastras (& guru) can cut doubts and hurry up the practice.

Your final words are wise and lovingly. If one had total discipline it would be so much easier.

[jasdir]

jasdir... its rare that people talk about their own experience. If one do its treated with suspicion. I prefer to do relate to shastras. Shastras (& guru) can cut doubts and hurry up the practice.

The knowledge or evidences from shastras depends on the STICKS of persons who has done them.

In the true sence only the person who practice "Meditations" can do the right STICKS of Shastras or any holy books,........... But

If the STICKS are made by normal person he/she use to fit them in according to fit their own preasent life style or convinence.

Moreover, let me give you one example:

There is game played by childrens, they sit in circle and they passes one word in the ear of next candidate, and the word rotate in the circle,
As result most of the time when the word returns to ear of begainer of the game, the word is Wrong.

So, Mean to say that, How can you trust that the years old education which is given to you today is 100% correct.

Secondly, books cannot speaks themselves, & the script written in holy books is Quiet old & written in the forms of poetries which is hard to Understand Correctly.

Thirdly, One can make more then one meanings on the one line of holy scripts.


Anyhow if you have Quiet big intrests in reading Holy Scriptures,

In which Holy book do you belive the most ?


_/\_"Namaste" by Jasdir.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Lord Krshna says in BG, "Even if you happen to be the worst of sinners, you will surely go across all sins by the raft of Knowledge". :) OM

Seems I read this somewhere before in the same thread,



If we look to the bhāgavad gītā , chapter 4, 36th śloka kṛṣṇa-ji informs us , even the most sinful ( most sinful should qualify as wicked, no?) of all sinners you would cross over all evil by the raft of knowledge alone



:)
praṇām

[Ekanta]

This is a fine reflection Jasdir!
A quote might hold more than Im able to express so I'll use it as base:
"The Jnani's eye sees all things as Brahmam! The Ajnani cannot understand whatever is said! So, all Sastras [scriptures] are intended to benefit the middlings." (SSB, Sandeha Nivarini)

A "middling" is not a total ajnani, he/she has genuine experience. They have by themselves walk some distance on the path and can by themselves verify the scriptures and the word of the guru. They can look behind and understand what has happened. They can understand where they (more or less) are and they can even look ahead A BIT (not fully).

A total ajnani has not verified anything by themselves. One day they agree with something and the next they doubt it. Most theologians fall into this category (Im thinking mostly of abrahmitic, since in here, there is no tradition of "practice") and the works they produce they lack all sweetness. The middlings will recognize this asap. Likewise a middling can recognize if a work is full of wisdom as there is sweetness in it.

At the beginning one is totally dependent on the guru, as one is totally deluded by one's own mind. When one learns to go beyond the mind (being stuck in the world of ideas), then one's own mind is put under one's own the light and one begin to see for oneself. One then also begin to understand the scriptures from another perspective. There will then naturally be less dependence on guru & scriptures... But since the scriptures are deep (and so is the guru) things that was not interesting at first are now interesting instead etc etc.

And finally, since one is in the danger of being deluded to the very end, the guru & scriptures are helpful to the very end.

"In which Holy book do you belive the most", There are many good. But to say one is good or even best, one must be able to say one understands it fully, and I cant do that. So I prefer practice combined with several books and interpretations. There can be an overload with information also, then one has to stop for some time. And I can write more... but its time to stop.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté jastir.


The knowledge or evidences from shastras depends on the STICKS of persons who has done them.

So, Mean to say that, How can you trust that the years old education which is given to you today is 100% correct.

Let me offer this POV from another string:


laukila (ordinary perception)
With ordinary perception we are accustomed to this idea of sight, hearing, touch, smell, etc. of the world-objects around us.

Yet how many of us have had the experience of alaukika ? What are they?

alaukila ( extraordinary perception)

sāmānyalakṣaṇa - sāmānya = universality , totality , generality + lakṣaṇa = a mark , sign , symbol , token
jñāna-lakṣaṇa = jñāna = knowledge, but here higher knowledge through cognition + lakṣaṇa = a mark , sign , symbol , token
yogaja - produced by or arising from yoga or meditation ; intuitionWhen we talk of truth and fact, we are limited to the perception of laukika ( ordinary); We have not as yet developed alaukika.


This was extracted from the following post if there is any interest:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=54292&postcount=9


praṇām

[jasdir]

:http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=54292&postcount=9

Great post,

Yajvan ji, Thank you so much for the links.

_/\_"Parnam"