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yajvan
12 December 2010, 01:25 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté


I was thinking what can science do for society that would be of great benefit.

A faster car? Another computer technology ? To travel into into space or to travel to the sub-atomic levels? Solving problem X, or Y or Z?
It seems all these things are within our grasp ( even controlling pollution, hunger, wars, etc).

I think the most good would come by proving the relationship of a person to the environment and how we affect it. Now many
will say that has been proven . Yet I think not, but I know this is the truth that we are tightly linked to each other, the world ,
the environment, the universe.


Why would I think this would be a most meaningful endeavor? People in general do not know that who they are, how they
think and act affects the world at large by just being the person you are.

What is the impact? the more tamasic behavior rajasic or satvic all this spills into the environment. Collectively we influence
life, the world, the atmosphere ( weather) .

So when there catastrophes and there is no 'audit trail' back to a cause it is usually the collective consciousness of the whole
( of the city, state , nation or world) that creates this influence.

If science can bring this to the table ( and it would be multiple disciplines) and we could educate people on ,
as you are so is the world , perhaps people would better take care of their mental and physical selves.
It is when we say, oh, I can do this and it is only affecting me so you should not care what I do , is the epitome of ignorance.

It is this simple notion of , you do not have to understand 'here' to be 'here' that causes issues. 'Here' means living in existence
itself ( sat¹). It is possible to exist without knowing existence itself. This is the fundamental principle of moha¹, of delusion and
the core of perpetuating ignorance at large.

praṇām

words

sat - being , existing , occurring , happening , being present i.e. sato me ' when I was present'.
moha - bewilderment , perplexity , distraction , infatuation , delusion , error; rooted in yā , to fall into error

devotee
12 December 2010, 07:31 PM
Namaste Yajvan ji,




I was thinking what can science do for society that would be of great benefit.

A faster car? Another computer technology ? To travel into into space or to travel to the sub-atomic levels? Solving problem X, or Y or Z?
It seems all these things are within our grasp ( even controlling pollution, hunger, wars, etc).

I think the most good would come by proving the relationship of a person to the environment and how we affect it. Now many
will say that has been proven . Yet I think not, but I know this is the truth that we are tightly linked to each other, the world ,
the environment, the universe.


Why would I think this would be a most meaningful endeavor? People in general do not know that who they are, how they
think and act affects the world at large by just being the person you are.

What is the impact? the more tamasic behavior rajasic or satvic all this spills into the environment. Collectively we influence
life, the world, the atmosphere ( weather) .

So when there catastrophes and there is no 'audit trail' back to a cause it is usually the collective consciousness of the whole
( of the city, state , nation or world) that creates this influence.

If science can bring this to the table ( and it would be multiple disciplines) and we could educate people on ,
as you are so is the world , perhaps people would better take care of their mental and physical selves.
It is when we say, oh, I can do this and it is only affecting me so you should not care what I do , is the epitome of ignorance.

It is this simple notion of , you do not have to understand 'here' to be 'here' that causes issues. 'Here' means living in existence
itself ( sat¹). It is possible to exist without knowing existence itself. This is the fundamental principle of moha¹, of delusion and
the core of perpetuating ignorance at large.


Like your many such thought-provoking threads, thanks for this one. :)

Sometimes I just smile at the way we take this life and the way this world runs ! I will tell you what is in my mind :

We don't know from where we came into this world. We know for certainty that we all have to go from this world. This world and this life are just a very temporary phenomenon. Isn't taking birth in this world is like suddenly finding oneself on an unknown island one fine morning rising from a sleep ? Now, if there was no one on the island, what would have I wanted to do at the cost of everything ? Even if I would have found people around me, wouldn't have I tried to figure out who am I & from where have I come ? I think, this is precisely I or anyone of us would have tried hard to know. Where exactly is our source and what is the mystery behind this island and its "life" ?

Our sudden appearance on this "island", from seemingly nowhere, is something like that. Yet how many of us are bothered by these questions ? After being born, we are taught by the "existing people" (parents, elders & others) the tricks to stay comfortably on the island ... more comfortably .... even at the cost of some fellow friends on the island. The sole aim of our existence becomes how to pass the time on the island in a comfortable way. The better you learn these tricks the more "successful" you are branded ... the more respect you get. You are taught not to even discuss the issue of going out of the island back "home" ... it is not considered "auspicious" ! "Going" from island is a word which you learn to fear fully knowing that it is inevitable. Even when we are suffering mentally, physically and spiritually ... we try to somehow survive on the island.

This is very very surprising to me. Just for a "temporary" (on the scale of time ... it is not even a point .... our story of existence is being written here in tis world on the surface of water) stay on the island ... what tricks we play ... what efforts we make ... !!!

What is science ? It is nothing but a focussed effort to understand the mystery of life. However, almost the whole effort is directed towards how to make this stay more comfortable on the island & not towards finding the answers to the basic questions which as an intelligent animals on this island we should have tried to figure out. What is the source of this intelligence .... what is the source of "i" that I feel I am .... if nothing can be created & nothing can be destroyed as we know from science ... doesn't it conclude that the essence of "me" is eternally indestructible & if that is true what is the real story behind my existence beyond the time when I was and will not be on this island ? Don't this island & "I" and all "others" have the same source ? In addition to finding the means to grow more & tasty food should not I try to find the answer that why do I feel hungry in the first place ? In addition to making efforts to buy a home ...should not I try to find out why do I need to sleep at all ? In addition to trying to earn money to get good clothes for me shouldn't I try to figure out why do I feel cold and why do I feel hot at all ? While trying to invent better and effective medicines shouldn't I try to find out why do I fall sick in the first place ? Instead of trying means to satisfy me more and more sexually should not I try to know why this sexual hunger attacks me at all ? Instead of trying to find the tricks which could make me live longer and longer should not I try to find out why am I afraid of death in the first place ?

I think science should have tried to help us seek answers to these most important questions.

OM

Eastern Mind
13 December 2010, 07:53 AM
Vannakkam Yajvan and Devotee: I am reminded of the words of a former landlord, a Scotsman, when he told me sadly 'medicine is about science, not humanity' . Mostly he was referring to extension of life without 'life'.

So scientists can be a misguided lot and have done a few things that aren't exactly good for mankind, but rather good for their own egos.

A couple of things that I appreciate, though, are advancements in technology so we can do things like this,enabling a quicker spread of dharmic ideas, although it also enabled the quicker spread of adharmic ideas as well.

I appreciate reduction of pain in medicine. Ironically right now I have a shoulder tear, and I get the electric treatment along with acupuncture, heat and massage. One is modern and 3 are ancient. But many medications were stolen from herbology, and aren't modern at all.

All in all, I believe they've done more harm than good, especially when one looks at where the greatest expenditures are, one of them being weaponry. My son works for GE now, and he was rather disappointed to say the least that most of the computer stuff he works on is headed for high tech weaponry.

I have no idea how one could turn them toward a more humane ecological approach.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
13 December 2010, 06:42 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté





It is this simple notion of , you do not have to understand 'here' to be 'here' that causes issues.

I find this idea exceedingly interesting to consider. That is, you are given a plane to fly ( the body, mind, senses) and you do not know where to fly it, so you go from city to city ( one object of enjoyment to another).

Some are offered a map ( the śāstra-s) and they use this as a tool. Some put the map down and say, interesting, but maybe another time, and others embrace the map and look to it for guidance. Others are blessed with a co-pilot ( teacher, guru and the like) to guide the way.

Yet it is possible to stumble through life and not know its meaning. Yet I have never been a fan on this idea of 'meaning'. It's kind of a catch-all for just not knowing. When one asks what is the meaning of all this , it seems so odd ( to me). It suggest to me that there is no frame of reference.
I think the question, what is the purpose of life , is more substantial and practical. It brings focus to one's inquiries. If there is no purpose one sees, then a life is less meaningful, and this is a different frame of reference.

Hence I offered the above to ask, do scientist have the right frame of mind to work in? Are they asking the right questions? Is seems every time I read or listen to a science program the scientist says we asked this question (X) and it only brought with it 10 more questions once we found the answer ( to X).
Is that ~bad~ ? Me thinks not as it brings one deeper into the subject. But just like the plane mentioned above, are the scientists going from city-to-city without the final destination charted out?


praṇām

kd gupta
13 December 2010, 09:49 PM
There is a slogan these days...You, Me and NO baby , but science can help finding Baby in Test tube :Cool: .

yajvan
14 December 2010, 10:18 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

It is said that the greater the knowledge the higher the sensitivity to sorrow and dis-satisfaction with the world. This experience can go a few ways.
Yet consider the wisdom and level of Being of the yogin, fully steeped in the Self.

He/she is considered like the pupil of the eye; even the smallest grain of dust causes a disturbance and can be unbearable. For the yogin that sees our world steeped in ignorance for them the disturbance is great.

That is why I look to science to assist, as they fall into the category of 'greater knowledge'. From a technological POV their attention has been on making life easier, for this I am grateful.

It seems to me it is time to put more attention from making tasks easier (travel, communication, house work, repairs, etc.) to making the person knowledgeable of the world and body in which they live. Now one would say this is what the medical and physiologically fields of study do.
Perhaps this is true to an extent, yet more can be done on comprehending and offering more on the level of Being. For these practitioners it seems
to be outside of thier scope of comprehension or a foreign idea to them.

Why so? Because they cannot quantify it as an item, a thing, a subject. That is why more study in this area is needed - to know it by inferences
in the beginning, and direct experience in the end.

praṇām

yajvan
17 December 2010, 01:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Here are some words from the astrophysicist Donald Lynden-Bell from Cambridge University.

"As Scientist we must be lead by curiosity over the mechanism of the natural world but doing bread-and-butter science, straight forward extension of what is known in order to elucidate new phenomena is the main job.
We should not spend all of out time groping at great problems that may be beyond our capacity. Too often those of great intellect spend all their time so doing, achieve little and become disillusioned when they could have achieved much.
Ideas are not readily described through the positions of and motions of particles and fields but, as in philosophy, ideas and questioning are the gist of all science.
I am not ashamed to ask questions that others claim are nonsensical, knowing how often I have not seen the obvious implications of my own work, I regard all mankind including myself as somewhat short-sighted."

Alise
17 December 2010, 02:44 PM
Namaste,

I remember once when I wrote message on one forum about how I really think that technology is advancing too fast. Yes obviously, I'm using computer for resources, cell phones when I need to talk with someone, but my post was more about that once there's new model of phone, few months later another better will come. When there were no cell phones, people actually tried to remember important numbers... In past 20-30 years technology advanced so fast that just it seems so unreal that when I was just 2 years or so younger than my younger sister is now (she's 11), people didn't have colored screen for a phone, just the basics & only richest kids had phone, at least in Latvia. Now my mom & younger sister both have touch screens, while I can actually call mine basic, even though it has camera & so on...
To tell you truth, when science advances I believe people stop to use natural skills & so on.
Do you even remember times when TV had no remote control?
One guy replied to my message saying, how would I live without washing machine, TV, computer, medicine etc.?

Certainly, in times when such things didn't exist, people didn't live bad, at least I don't think they thought so. People found other ways to communicate, other ways to wash their clothes & so on.

I'm grateful that I have computer (or I wouldn't have found my dear Sanathana Dharma), other technology, medicine & other great scientific achievements. But to me it's more actually being happy what you have & not having the newest thing, cause in the end not always new is better than ancient...


Sorry if I talk too much off topic...


Have a great day,
~Alice

EDIT: Just wanted to add: this youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9Wu2kWwSY). Amazing, right?