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yajvan
14 December 2010, 07:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Sākṣātkāra is evident or intuitive perception , realization¹. Of what? Of one's own nature, of Being.

Yet let me ask the HDF reader for your views, opinions, perhaps even experiences of this realization.
What do you believe it is? What to you think changes or remains the same? What do you think a person's daily experience becomes?

How would you contrast this to ignorance?

praṇām


words
realization some call enlightenment , moksa, kevalya.

hrdayananda
15 December 2010, 12:44 PM
Namaste, Yajvan

I believe sakshat means witness? So sakshatkara is the state of uninvolvement or detached awareness, where you act without longing for the fruits of your action, where your consciousness is not lost among external objects, but instead encompasses everything. I have glimpses of this state, but considering the fact that I don't have that all the time, I guess it was just a temporary mental state that I experienced. The real sakshatkara should be permananent and is identical to self-realisation. However, I have had blissful states where the I was not confined to the body, but encompassed everything. The bliss that is felt when in that state cannot be described.

Ignorance, on the other hand, is characterised by wrong-identification and wandering consciousness. The mind is always preocupied with external objects, so much that it forgets the Source. It is directed outward and bound by the senses.

yajvan
15 December 2010, 04:26 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté hrdayananda

What you offer is very appropriate . Sākṣāt means 'with one's own eyes' and hence is applied and used as 'witness' as in the term sākṣin observing , witnessing , an eye-witness.

As you mention


sakshatkara is the state of un involvement or detached awareness, where you act without longing for the fruits of your action, where
your consciousness is not lost among external objects.

Yes this is the initial stage of mokṣa - there is seperation. There is the experience of the Self, and the rest of the world. Yet one now
identifies with the Self and not with the body or diversity of life, but anchored in the Self 7x24x365 days a year in wake , dream and sleep.
One becomes established in turīya ( the 4th).


Now this word is very revealing - sākṣātkāra. We can look at it this way for appreciation purposes: sāk +ṣāt + kāra

sāk - for now I am going to view this as sā(k) and leave the 'k' off for now; sā is a name for viṣṇu or śiva ; knowledge;
This sā ( 3rd derivative) is a weak form of √ san , giving , bestowing , granting , yet will play a role in the definition I offer.
ṣāt - when put after a word ( sā in this case) suggests a total change into the thing expressed by that word (sā)
kāra - is doing, making; determinationHence this word means from my POV the making (kāra) or the total changing into (ṣāt ) viṣṇu or śiva (sā).

When I think of viṣṇu or śiva I am lead to unboundedness and that which holds everything. These notions are in the words viṣṇu or śiva
i.e. viṣṇu is rooted in √ viṣ defined as all-pervader ; and śiva is rooted in √ śī , ' in whom all things lie ' ; which leads us to √ śvi defined as auspicious , propitious.


Sākṣātkāra is that transformation into Unboundedness of the Self, rooted in viṣṇu or śiva.

praṇām

saidevo
15 December 2010, 11:37 PM
namaste Yajvan and others.

I thought of another connotation for the word sAkShAtkAra, whose direct meaning is 'eye-witnessing'. Since the Sanskrit term for eye is 'chakShu', where is the connection of the eye in the term 'sAkShAtkAra'?

• Now, chakShu--eye, is derived from chakSh--to see, which in turn is a reduplicated form of kAsh--to shine. However, it seems that neither chakShu--eye, nor chakSh--to see, appear to be part of the term 'sAkShAtkAra'.

• There is another term for the eye--akSha. Now, akShAt is the fifth--ablative case of akSha, meaning 'from the eye'; 'kAra' is 'making/doing, maker/doer'; and 'sa' is a prefix substituted for sah--prevail, possess.

• Therefore, sAkShAtkAra = sa(h) + akShAt + kAra = 'prevail with the action of being seen by the eye', that is, 'a vision obtained from the eye by the seer'.

Combined with Atman, Brahman, Ishvara, we get the terms Atma-sAkShAtkAra, brahma-sAkShAtkAra and Ishavara-sAkShAtkAra, in which context it amounts to the realization of the Atman, Brahman or Ishvara, as if they are seen visibly.

Here is an interesting article about how sAkShAtkAra relates to the three streams of VedAnata, namely, Advaita, Dvaita, and VishiShTAdvaita.
http://saileelas.org/articles/SAKSHATKARA.htm

Incidentally, Yajvan, in your explanation in post no.3, you said that 'sA' 'is a name for ViShNu or Shiva'. I think it should be 'sa' (with the short vowel), because 'sA' means 'of LakShmI, of PArvatI'. However, if we break the term as sa+akShAt+kAra, your explanation "transformation into Unboundedness of the Self, rooted in viShu or shiva" also fits nicely.

Owing to my being not adequately Sanskrit-literate, to obtain my explanation given above, I had to consult some dhAtu books, Apte's dictionary, and online MWD, pouring over them for an hour or so. These dhAtu books include:

01. 'dhAturUpakoSha' in Sanskrit-English, by D.N.Gandhi and R.J.Kanade
02. 'The Roots, Verb-Forms and Primary Derivatives of the Sanskrit Language' by W.D. Whitney
03. 'rUpachandrikA' edited by Dr.Brahmanand Tripathi
04. 'bRhaddhAtukusumAkaraH' by 'harekAnta mishraH'

Not that I have read or in anyway familiar with the contents of these books! I keep them for some painstaking reference, when a doubt persists: perils of the habit of some intellectual fast food in the place of a wholesome, regular meal, as you might say.

yajvan
16 December 2010, 07:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté saidevo,



namaste Yajvan and others.

• There is another term for the eye--akSha. Now, akShAt is the fifth--ablative case of akSha, meaning 'from the eye'; 'kAra' is 'making/doing, maker/doer'; and 'sa' is a prefix substituted for sah--prevail, possess.

Owing to my being not adequately Sanskrit-literate, to obtain my explanation given above, I had to consult some dhAtu books, Apte's dictionary, and online MWD, pouring over them for an hour or so. These dhAtu books include:

01. 'dhAturUpakoSha' in Sanskrit-English, by D.N.Gandhi and R.J.Kanade
02. 'The Roots, Verb-Forms and Primary Derivatives of the Sanskrit Language' by W.D. Whitney
03. 'rUpachandrikA' edited by Dr.Brahmanand Tripathi
04. 'bRhaddhAtukusumAkaraH' by 'harekAnta mishraH'

Not that I have read or in anyway familiar with the contents of these books! I keep them for some painstaking reference

A nice review indeed. Yes I know of this going from book to book (often) :) .

Let me offer this idea to the association of what you have brought ... how it applies to rudrākṣā

akṣa अक्ष is for akṣi the eye; also it’s a seed; it is also considered the beam of a balance or string which holds the pivot of the beam; and this akśa is also a measure of weight.
rudra रुद्र- we know as crying , howling , roaring , dreadful , terrific , terrible , horrible;
yet this rudra is also red , shining , glittering from its root rud or rudh. And we know this rudra is another name for śiva, so no news here. So one can say by definition that the bead is his akṣa , eye. Others say it is his tears. And others say rudrākṣa means it is pleasing to the eyes -akṣa of rudra.

praṇām

yajvan
29 December 2010, 01:32 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Sākṣātkāra is evident or intuitive perception , realization¹. Of what? Of one's own nature, of Being.

Why does this realization to stay firm , start within , beyond the senses or atīndriya¹ ? Knowledge starts the process and it is via the senses ( observing, reading, listening), yet for this realization to take hold all the sense objects , even learning must be left behind. Why so?


praṇām

words

atīndriya beyond the (cognizance of the) senses
realization some call enlightenment , moksa, kevalya

sringeri
30 December 2010, 07:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Why does this realization to stay firm , start within , beyond the senses or atīndriya¹ ? Knowledge starts the process and it is via the senses ( observing, reading, listening), yet for this realization to take hold all the sense objects , even learning must be left behind. Why so?


praṇām

words

atīndriya beyond the (cognizance of the) senses
realization some call enlightenment , moksa, kevalya



Pranams


It is a pleasure always to read and try imbibe the discussion in this forum. I am doubly pleased as this is between two active cogninatii ( can we use this term ) here

Let the year bring health and prosperity to all

Sringeri

saidevo
30 December 2010, 11:33 PM
namaste Yajvan and others.

Just as a ladder, a car, or even our own body has to be abandoned after it is used for the specific purpose/destination/life, knowledge of the absolute reality has to leave behind the tools of learning that were used to accomplish it.

The eyes, ears, mouth, mind and other senses involved in the learning process, are exclusive to their own areas. For example, the eyes cannot know what the ears can and vice versa. The mind attaches itself readily to the inputs of all other senses and gets an inclusive knowledge, but because the mind is guided by the ego, this knowledge is insufficient. Although the mind might intellectually understand the absolute reality, it would still be a belief (with the doubt lurking behind), not a realization, and thus would be insufficient.

To have the realization--sAkShAtkAra, the mind thus needs to look inside rather than at the external world. As it meditates to look inside, all the senses converge on a single point like the rays of the sun through a lens, and with enough tapas--heat, generated, the veil is pierced, giving momentary glances of the absolute reality that is immanent as the Self.

Once the momentary glances are accomplished, the seeker becomes a mumukShu--desirous of mokSha, and withdraws himself more and more towards personal realization of the Self. Ultimately, when the seeker is able to sustain the realization of the Self in his other three states of existence, he finds as the wise say, that he has his senses a thousandfold, and yet they all merge at all times into a single Reality.

Onkara
03 January 2011, 08:53 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Why does this realization to stay firm , start within , beyond the senses or atīndriya¹ ? Knowledge starts the process and it is via the senses ( observing, reading, listening), yet for this realization to take hold all the sense objects , even learning must be left behind. Why so?


praṇām

words

atīndriya beyond the (cognizance of the) senses
realization some call enlightenment , moksa, kevalya

Namasté Yajvanji
The mind is said to consist of elements. It is therefore material in nature. So too is the information we learn a part of the mind's ability to store and recall subject to the elements, such as food, intoxicants and of course time.

Chandogya: (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/chandogya.html?page=6)
"VI-v-1: ‘Food, when eaten, becomes divided into three parts. What is its grossest ingredient, that becomes faeces; what is the middling ingredient, that becomes flesh; and what is the subtlest ingredient, that becomes mind."

Therefore Self-realisation cannot be of the material mind, although the mind must be used to see the Self clearly, through the senses as you say:

Katha Upanishad (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/katha.html) 2-I-11. By mind alone is this attainable; there is no difference here whatsoever. Whoso here sees as though different, passes from death to death."

The Self is here described for us:
Katha Upanishad 1-II-20. (http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/katha.html) The Self that is subtler than the subtle and greater than the great is seated in the heart of every creature. One who is free from desire sees the glory of the Self through the tranquillity of the mind and senses and becomes absolved from grief.
1-II-21. While sitting, It goes far, while lying It goes everywhere. Who other than me can know that Deity who is joyful and joyless.
1-II-22. The intelligent one having known the Self to be bodiless in (all) bodies, to be firmly seated in things that are perishable, and to be great and all-pervading, does not grieve.
1-II-23. The Self cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, not by intelligence nor by much hearing. Only by him who seeks to know the Self can It be attained. To him the Self reveals Its own nature."

We must be alert as it is the infirm mind which will distance this teaching, making it appear to address someone different to ourselves or reduce it to academics. This is another reason we must start within, stay firm and look for the Self inside ourself.

yajvan
03 January 2011, 01:55 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté snip, saidevo ( et.al)

Both of your responses are most insightful. If I may I'd like to add one more notion for your consideration. When one is ~looking~ for something it seems to start at the closest point to begin the investigation. What then is closer then one's own Self?

There is no doubt that the environment is permeated by Being . Every fiber , every molecule or strand of creation is bathing in Being ( so say the wise via their direct and personal experience). Yet for us to begin there is a bit difficult. Why so? Because of distractions. The ears wish to go here-and-their ( hear :) and there); the eyes are accustomed to look for change, the nose is attracted to the next sent in the air. Like that there are multiple distractions for the person doing the investigation of Being, brahman.

Hence it seems then to ~turn off~ the senses and look within. Just as a horse or other animal is quieted by putting a cover over its head to block out sight/seeing, we too can close our eyes and the mind begins to settle down. It triggers the rest response in us ( like sleeping, we begin with shutting the eyes). We then can start the inward march.

Now this ~march~ is just words, to give a picture of what is occurring. What occurs is finer and finer levels of our Being is being experienced. What is occurring ? Nyāyena - from the root ni that into which a thing goes back i.e. an original type , standard , method. And what do we to accomplish with this ~going back~ ? Patañjali-ji would say stilling (nirodhaḥ) the active (vṛtti) mind (citta). It is in this perfect still-ness we find Being.

praṇām

kd gupta
03 January 2011, 11:40 PM
Good meal for thoughts served by Yajvanji and the right break up by Saidevoji as sa+akshat+kara .
I shall put up my views for solving 1. eternal damnation 2.jeeva and brahman and 3.dwa suparna .. by this word .
All of us remember when swords were drawn on the word ..aksharam brahman parmam , I miss Atanuji .
Now krsn says..nehabhikramnasho...40/2 means there is no loss of the seed or grain , here akshat is termed as grain usually rice in worship .
So jeeva as seed is imperishable and say it is a part of brahman .
This jeevatma is responsible for good or bad births hence no eternal damnation is there , krsn says ..sadsadyonijanmasi..21 or 22/13
Now the third or very important point to me is, this jeevatma being very selfish in its nourishment ,prevents from sakshatkar with the parmatma and hence first bird which eats the fruits is jeevatma and the second bird which is mere spectator is mann or mind .
Krsn therefore says..sanstabhyatmanmatmana...3/43 gita . controlling atma by atmana means mind .
Our indian translation to sakshatkar is Interview...ha..ha :)

Onkara
05 January 2011, 05:23 AM
Namasté Yajvanji and all
I enjoyed the last posts but feel inclined to ask a question based on your post Yajvan, which I realise can be taken at a more spritual level :)

It is my observation that at some point this "going within" or Nyāyena must too be brought to the light of conciousness and questioned because we are always called back to the world around us. Not all of us can or need remain in samadhi or with Nyāyena.

At some point, even by nature we may be turned outwards towards the world and the senses. When we wake in the morning or crossing a busy street we are reminded of this. Even the Self-realised guru's must cross busy roads and deal with the world around them, even if they teach that it has an illusionary quality until Brahman is known.

So my question is, how in context to the posts here, if at all do we deal with the external world in your opinion?


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté snip, saidevo ( et.al)
Hence it seems then to ~turn off~ the senses and look within. Just as a horse or other animal is quieted by putting a cover over its head to block out sight/seeing, we too can close our eyes and the mind begins to settle down. It triggers the rest response in us ( like sleeping, we begin with shutting the eyes). We then can start the inward march.

Now this ~march~ is just words, to give a picture of what is occurring. What occurs is finer and finer levels of our Being is being experienced. What is occurring ? Nyāyena - from the root ni that into which a thing goes back i.e. an original type , standard , method. And what do we to accomplish with this ~going back~ ? Patañjali-ji would say stilling (nirodhaḥ) the active (vṛtti) mind (citta). It is in this perfect still-ness we find Being.

praṇām

NayaSurya
05 January 2011, 06:45 AM
So my question is, how in context to the posts here, if at all do we deal with the external world in your opinion?

Snip, you have the question most upon my heart this morning, that you post it makes me very grateful. I am so grateful.

Something I have noticed about the largely enlightened is that they seem to have helpers to allow them to stay mostly out of this mundane realm. Devotees enable such beings to simple drift in and out as needed.

For those of us not yet at this high level, we still muck through this world. Impacting and being impacted by society.

Last night, till very late my Beloved husband and I lay talking this through. See, I had become sad...over the fact something, which is out of my control, was turning.

Okay... it's actually beyond this. See, years ago I was moderator of a MMORPG and a mod on the hugely active forum which held thousands of mostly teenagers posting hundreds of times daily. My boss(older adult male) was posing as a girl and illiciting young boys to have a relationship with him. I did not tell on him at first out of fear, he had begun to stalk me in various states of invisability on the game making it impossible to speak out. Until one of my 13 year old friends in the game began to date him unknowingly. This set about irreperable events which blew the business up and closed the game by my revealing of the truth. Come to find out, I was not so alone with this truth, only the one who was brave enough to speak it out.

I tried to avoid this karma and lesson and moved on to other things only to have it come once again to me when my best friend many years later began to lie...a huge lie and I did nothing about it. I allowed them to continue and just simply avoided them. They hurt someone very beloved to me by these lies and when I found out...I felt it was partly my fault.

Seeing this lesson repeated made me wary and I tried desperately to understand it so I could avoid another instance of teaching. So, now when I see deception of any kind I become very very sad. I do not want to entangle myself with the situation...but at the same time I am almost compelled by this very bad situation from my past to try.

This moves me from observer to participant, something I want desperately to avoid. But, how?

I do not want to participate. I do not.

Shiva please release me of this lower service and allow me peace.

Have I not served with love, never questioning these tasks which you have placed within my hands? Can't this tired being finally have shelter? Beloved, grant me this please. Allow others to take up such things and allow this portion to take up You and these precious portions you have place directly in my care as my only concern.

Om Namah Shivaya

This is what I pray today.

Somewhere inside me I do realize that until I burn off whatever Karma which remains in this lifetime.... Beloved will not allow this. So I try to be patient and serve in whatever way He needs.

Sometimes that takes me to the most wretched places in this external world. But, all along I wait for that blessed release.

Until then, beings like me are the hands, minds and hearts of Beloved. Our duty keeps up firmly set in this mundane realm much of the time. We serve by positively impacting others(as best we can), and in the process...we are often impacted negatively...unfortunately.

I have another prayer today for Beloved.

That all the ones who have finally made it to this point are released from this great service and allowed to have the peace so vital to evolution.

Om Namah Shivaya<3

saidevo
05 January 2011, 08:18 AM
namaste Snip and others.

Your question boils down to this, I think:
"How does a yogi, who is fixed in nirvikalpa samAdhi--unalterably stationed in the Self, perceive the world as he goes about his waking life?"

shrI Chandra-shekhara BhAratI mahasvAmigaL, the 34th pontiff of the dakShiNAmnaya shringgeri shAradA pItham, gave this advise to his shiShya who later became the 35th pontiff with the name shri Abhinava vidyAtIrtha MahasvAmigaL:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=29149&postcount=64

Essentially, the difference between us as ordinary seekers, and yogis as accomplished seekers, is this:

While we walk on or cross the road, we are aware of only the jIvAtman--individual soul/consciousness, in us and in the objects and beings we come across. The yogi, on the other hand, is aware of only the paramAtman--Self/universal consciousness, at all times, and hence could focus on the objects and beings around him viewing them as formal manifestations of Brahman.

Can we have some idea--intellectual, of course--of how that experience of the yogi could be?

I think the analogy we can have is to the feeling of I-ness in us. We pick up many roles with their own physical and metal makeup in our daily life and act them out as required in them, but we are ALWAYS AWARE that it is the 'I' in us which plays these roles. We constantly reiterate this feeling of I-ness in us in the speech and action of the roles, giving it an external meaning to the world around, and internal meaning to us. If we can merge this feeling of I-ness with everyone else's feeling of the same, and visualize it as a common substratum, we would perhaps be less attached to and worried about our roles.

We already know the 'I' in us as the role-player. What we need is to constantly reiterate ourselves about it rather than get lost in the characters of the roles. Our Self as the sUtrAtma--consciousness which is the thread, passes through the beads of our personalities. All we need is to pass the beads on, without admiring or worrying about their appearance.

yajvan
05 January 2011, 11:19 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233; snip (et.al)


It is my observation that at some point this "going within" or Nyāyena must too be brought to the light of conciousness and questioned because we are always called back to the world around us.


This is a very practical question and others have given some good insights on this matter. Let me offer another view to consider.


Activity and sādhana.
This going back into activity is part of one's sādhana. In the truest sense this is karma yoga. Let me explain.

One goes within and bathes ( snānaṁ&#185;) in the clarity of Being , of pure consciousness. Then one comes back out into activity. This coming back into activity plays an import role to stabilize that pure consciousness that was experienced. It (activity) works with one's meditation.

Its like dying a white sheet. We take the sheet and bathe it in a vat of yellow dye. We then hang it outside in the sun and the sun ( activity) bleaches out the color somewhat. We then take the sheet and put it back into the dye ( meditation, transcending, experiencing pure consciousness) , and then bring it back into the sun. The sun makes it 'fast' as they call it; it stabilizes the color into the fabric. That is what our activity does. It makes fast the pure consciousness we experience during meditation.

The wise say it this way... withdraw , then withdraw from the withdrawal. That is, go within and experience pure awareness, then withdraw from that, come back out into activity and act.


How to deal with the world


So my question is, how in context to the posts here, if at all do we deal with the external world in your opinion?

This external world we live in, it is there to support this process.

This whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment ...svāmī lakṣman-jū


How do we deal with it? The best we can , in a positive manner. When we come back into activity after ones withdrawal (nyāyena) we act.

We go to school, or work, or garden , or ______( fill in the blank). When ever we can choose, take those activities that are supportive to our sādhana. One tends to gravitate to those things that are more life-supporting, more spiritually uplifting; this occurs over time.

Over time one's selection of activities become more refined. One is more in tune for what is uplifting ( dharma) to one's being. Bad habits fall off. Why so? They do not support one's sādhana.

Choices and selections in life change ( food, people you befriend, types of activity, what you read, how you act) . They change because more
and more infusion of pure consciousness is occurring.

What is occurring? This 'infusion' is going into the village of the senses ( as my teacher called it) - the nervous system. It is being groomed
to be able to entertain, at the same time, the silence of the Self, with the dynamism of activity, together.

This is why kṛṣṇa-ji says in the 48th verse of the bhāgavad gītā - yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma). This is the instruction to live and act within the confines of the Supreme.

But what do I do in the interim time?

Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in Chapter 3, 8th śloka, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ&#185; - do your allotted/perscribed duty.
This is the wisdom offered on varṇa (class of men , tribe , order , caste ) that includes dharma at its root dhṛ ( to uphold, support).
So we continue to do what we do - we choose uplifting things, supportive things ( dharma).

But what of my efforts?

If we look to Chapter 2 called sāṁkhya yoga , the 40th śloka, kṛṣṇa-ji says the following:
In this undertaking (of yoga) no effort is ever lost and no obsticle exists. Even a little of this dharma delivers (one) from great fear.

praṇām

words

snānaṁ or snāna - bathing , washing , ablution; bathing in sacred waters - in this case pure awareness
niyataṁkuru karma tvaṁ
niyataṁ - fixed , established , settled , sure , regular , invariable , positive ; disciplined , self-governed
kuru - here it is being used as doer; this would is very robust and can take us all the way the ancestor of both pāṇḍu and dhṛtarāṣṭra, not to mention the battlefield kurukṣetra.
karma - is karman which is act , action , performance, business
tvaṁ - your, thy

yajvan
07 May 2011, 04:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namast&#233;


I wrote,



Hence it seems then to ~turn off~ the senses and look within. Just as a horse or other animal is quieted by putting a cover over its head to block out sight/seeing, we too can close our eyes and the mind begins to settle down. It triggers the rest response in us ( like sleeping, we begin with shutting the eyes). We then can start the inward march.

Now this ~march~ is just words, to give a picture of what is occurring. What occurs is finer and finer levels of our Being is being experienced. What is occurring ? Nyāyena - from the root ni that into which a thing goes back i.e. an original type , standard , method. And what do we to accomplish with this ~going back~ ? Pata&#241;jali-ji would say stilling (nirodhaḥ) the active (vṛtti) mind (citta). It is in this perfect still-ness we find Being.
The points offered above seem to be innocently overlooked by the beginning meditators. That is, going within is not done by force, but by directing the attention, awareness accordingly.


One thinks I must concentrate on this or that, and therefore discipline the mind. This may yield some fruit yet it usually causes angst as a beginning meditator struggles with keeping ones attentive concentration focused. Hence more meditators leave their practice for this reason. The notion of excessive effort creeps into their practice.

Excessive effort causes expectations ; with expectations one creates desires and the notion that this or that should occur. When it does not, then one says what the heck this stuff does not work and I am not going to waste my time.

The key, the method, the approach is innocently directing the attention inward - from this the mind becomes concentrated - it is the result, not the starting point.

So, as one concentrates on some-thing, it keeps the mind engaged at the surface level of thinking. Being, in its silent state is turīya the 4th, and not found at the surface level, but at the most still parts of the mind. It is between every thought, idea, notion, yet if you go to put your attention on it, it takes that form of a thought-of-attention. This is why an approach is needed.

praṇām

smaranam
07 May 2011, 04:46 PM
So I try to be patient and serve in whatever way He needs.
NayaSurya, tomorrow is mother's day. How about taking ONLY half the day for NOT coming back into activity, NOT withdrawing from the withdrawal, skipping the karma yoga for a change ? But only half the day :)

NayaSurya
07 May 2011, 05:22 PM
Would that I could.:p

But in every single moment and every Beloved interaction comes that progress. For mothers, every day is a good day to give this world our heart.<3

As one who is myself motherless in the mundane sense, I will spend the day loving, worshiping and celebrating Beloved Shakti in every single Beautiful Manifestation<3

NayaSurya
07 May 2011, 05:26 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté


I wrote,


The points offered above seem to be innocently overlooked by the beginning meditators. That is, going within is not done by force, but by directing the attention, awareness accordingly.


One thinks I must concentrate on this or that, and therefore discipline the mind. This may yield some fruit yet it usually causes angst as a beginning meditator struggles with keeping ones attentive concentration focused. Hence more mediators leave their practice for this reason. The notion of excessive effort creeps into their practice.

Excessive effort causes expectations ; with expectations one creates desires and the notion that this or that should occur. When it does not, then one says what the heck this stuff does not work and I am not going to waste my time.

The key, the method, the approach is innocently directing the attention inward - from this the mind becomes concentrated - it is the result, not the starting point.

So, as one concentrates one some-thing, it keeps the mind engaged at the surface level of thinking. Being, in its silent state is turīya the 4th, and not found at the surface level, but at the most still parts of the mind. It is between every thought, idea, notion, yet if you go to put your attention on it, it takes that form of a thought-of-attention. This is why an approach is needed.

praṇām

It is very true, in every second of silence in every still moment. In the car driving...in the chair silently crocheting...sitting waiting for the doctor to call your name. On a shady windswept hill when I was five years old waiting for my mother to call me in for dinner. It is always present.

smaranam
08 May 2011, 02:30 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


Sākṣātkāra is evident or intuitive perception , realization&#185;. Of what? Of one's own nature, of Being.

Yet let me ask the HDF reader for your views, opinions, perhaps even experiences of this realization.
What do you believe it is? What to you think changes or remains the same? What do you think a person's daily experience becomes?

How would you contrast this to ignorance?

praṇām


words
realization some call enlightenment , moksa, kevalya.



Our indian translation to sakshatkar is Interview...ha..ha :)

Well, when Shri RAm and Shri KrushNa walked up to me who was lying in a desert in the hot sun (and it was actually night but i was awake, and yet here i was in the sun), They wore Vayjayanti haar and dazzling gold jewellery and crowns. They looked at each other and smiled. Ram left, KrushNa stayed ... ever after.

He did not interview me, neither did i interview Him... we just knew we belonged together eternally. We were simultaneously on earth and not on earth, it was simultaneously winter and fall, summer and spring, the chariot went on land and in space... we were on water and land, in DvApar/TretA/Satya and Kali, in the present and beyond Time, in this geographical place as well as beyond material space...

He is the stillness and silence i do not want to overcome
He is the nudge that stops me right from crossing the danger zone of simply remaining in the stillness as if forever
He is the Witness that stands in a corner in tribhang crossed-feet but folded arms
He is the Motherly glance
He is His Lotus Eyes and Lotus Feet
He is the Lotus Hands who tells you a story and puts you to sleep

He is Hari who removes from your dictionary the word "WORRY" much to your guilt and wonder
He is the shelter abode surhud and Prabhu Who protects your child

He is the comfort zone, the couch and potato chips
HE is the voice that wakes me up
HE is the magnet that sets you free but you come back to the nest anyway

He is Everything there is
He is ... well, words cannot describe Him...

"I am the Secret You will not be able to hide I am the Voice you can never forget Wherever you go you will see Me ..."


My Beloved PrAnanAth has many names. He is well known as Krushna , ShyAmsunder, RAm, Govind, GopAl, NArAyan, MAdhav, Madhusudan.
He was watching me all those years while i walked aimlessly ...... LOST. Only i did not know that He was watching, while i was reading and reflecting on His Words , while Saints, Devotees and Devtas were generously showering their blessings .... and i was searching for someone - only did not know Who that was..... - Where are You ? You have to be. There has to be that One. You...Hare rAm hare rAm rAm rAm hare hare hare krushNa hare krushNa krushNa krushNa hare hare...He walked into the life of this soul to take care of her ever after.



praNAm

yajvan
08 May 2011, 04:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;

kd gupta writes,


Our indian translation to sakshatkar is Interview.
Yes, this makes sense. How so? Note the difference in the pronuncation of word 1 and 2 below. Word 2, sākṣātkara, is without
the long ā. Just this change takes us to a slightly different ( yet associated) definition:

sākṣātkāra is evident or intuitive perception , realization.
sākṣātkara साक्षात्कर - putting before the eyes , making evident to the senses

Note with sākṣātkara as 'interview' we are putting before ones eyes. This can even be the interviewer, whose eyes
and mind we use to come to know another ( via their interview with another person).

praṇām

smaranam
09 May 2011, 06:15 AM
Namaste

Guptaji is right - it is one of the meanings , with a long a in both places - the way i have always heard it in other Indian languages too.

sAkshAtkAr - What It Is (http://saileelas.org/articles/SAKSHATKARA.htm)


English Meaning of Roman Hindi word&#160;sakshatkar&#160;-&#160;साक्षात्कार&#160; (sakshatkar, saakshaatkaara)&#160;from Hindi - English Dictionary
1)&#160;Interview&#160; (N)&#160;
**2)&#160;Visit&#160; (N)&#160;
**3)&#160;Vision&#160;
4)&#160;Interviewing&#160;
5)&#160;Interviews&#160;

but more, a continuing phenomenon after the vision.

SAkSAtkAr - saNskRt (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=saakSaatkaara&script=&direction=SE&link=y)

praNAm

Shri KrushNa sharaNam mama

yajvan
09 May 2011, 08:08 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


English Meaning of Roman Hindi word sakshatkar - साक्षात्कार (sakshatkar, saakshaatkaara) from Hindi - English Dictionary
1) Interview (N)
**2) Visit (N)
**3) Vision
4) Interviewing
5) Interviews

but more, a continuing phenomenon after the vision.

Yes, what you offer and Guptaji offers makes perfect sense in Hindi. Yet the Hindi definition is not 100&#37; aligned to saṃskṛtam. This also occurs in Tamil, etc. Yet we can see a common thread back to its roots of saṃskṛtam.

This happens in many languages such as English going back to many roots in Latin. We can 'connect the dots' accordingly and appreciate how the word-definition evolves over time.

praṇām

kd gupta
09 May 2011, 11:15 AM
thanks for giving so much time to interview , in the mean time i was busy with spiritual times forum, speaking tree .

smaranam
09 May 2011, 02:27 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


Yes, what you offer and Guptaji offers makes perfect sense in Hindi. Yet the Hindi definition is not 100&#37; aligned to saṃskṛtam. This also occurs in Tamil, etc. Yet we can see a common thread back to its roots of saṃskṛtam.

This happens in many languages such as English going back to many roots in Latin. We can 'connect the dots' accordingly and appreciate how the word-definition evolves over time.

praṇām

Namaste, OK i see the point. I liked that article however.
praNAm

kd gupta
09 May 2011, 10:42 PM
Namaste, OK i see the point. I liked that article however.
praNAm
What to say about knowledge of smaranamji , it is transcendental always .
Actually krsn knows the bhava [ emotion /nature ] and not the language .
One my friend felt always sorry when he used to tell his name as people laughed .
His name was jardar manranjan , but he used to pronounce as ..jordar manoranjan [ heavy entertainment ]

smaranam
10 May 2011, 08:35 PM
Actually krsn knows the bhava [ emotion /nature ] and not the language .

Thanks for saying that.

In any case, sAkSAtkAr - SaNskRt (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=saakSaatkaara&script=&direction=SE&link=y)

praNAm