Is it a valid, true description of followers of Shiva?!

[Elizabeth108]

A friend of mine (member of ISKCON) showed me a passage of the SB.
Here is the part he referred to:
SB 4.2.29.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/29/en

Is this really a true description of shaiva people?
Or how should I understand that part of the SB?


Furthuremore, my friend added this:
Those who imitate Shiva are called Shaiva (and he says the quoted SB part refers to them) and
those who follow Shiva's teachings should rather be called Vaishnava.


Please, help me, for I got confused. :(

Om Namah Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

I would not get perturbed by a verse taken in isolation, these passage comes from the destruction off Daksha's yagna, where cursing and counter cursing was going on.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Sahasranama]

Yes, that's right. ALso take a look at book 8 and chapter 7 for a stotra for Shiva.

[Elizabeth108]

Yes, that's right. ALso take a look at book 8 and chapter 7 for a stotra for Shiva.
Hi Sahasranama (http://hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1608),

Do you mean that is really a valid description of Shiva's followers - they eat meat, drink wine, use marihuana, neglect bathing etc. etc.?

Om Namah Shivaya

[Alise]

Namaste,

In my opinion, one should use Shaivite resources to judge Shaivism. It's just as ignorant as when person goes to christian site to know what Hindus are like. I personally don't go around & find disrespecting quotes about Vaishnavism. Sanathana Dharma is mother of many beautiful religions together as one, isn't it?
I personally was never interested in Vaishnavism, never drawn to Vishnu, does that mean that other people can't be drawn to Vishnu? I have nothing against Vishnu, Vaishnavism, Krisha,Rama, other avataras & Vaishnavites. My school of Shaivism teaches to respect every other denomination of Hinduism. I would be glad that members of other denominations do the same.

Truth is one, sages call it different names. Isn't that true?

Have a great day,
~Alice

EDIT: Short answer is: No, Shaivas are not like that.

[sanjaya]

Hi Elizabeth. It might help to read this text in context. It's an instance of Daksha cursing Lord Shiva. Daksha hated Shiva for marrying his daughter Dakshayani even though he had forbade it. Seems to me that his curses should be viewed with this obvious bias in mind.

[Sahasranama]

Hi Sahasranama (http://hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1608),

Do you mean that is really a valid description of Shiva's followers - they eat meat, drink wine, use marihuana, neglect bathing etc. etc.?

Om Namah Shivaya

No, I meant Ganeshprasad is right, the shloka looks bad when it is removed from the context of the story. Sorry for the confusion. Do not rely too much on ISCKON commentaries, they have a tendecy to distort the scriptures. Please, also take a look at book 8, chapter seven in the bhagavad purana to read more about Shiva.


In my opinion, one should use Shaivite resources to judge Shaivism
Yes, you are right about Shaivite sources to learn about Shaivism. But I'd like to add that the Bhagavatam is not a sectarian Vaishnava text. It's unfortunate that people take one shloka out of context and give it a bad meaning. Most of the 18 maha-puranas are actually non sectarian in nature even though they have their own speciality. The Bhagavatam is a highly respected work among many traditions and it is actually highly lyrical about Shiva if you look at the text objectively without ISCKON commentaries. The stotra in canto 8, chapter 7 in the Bhagavatam for Shiva is so beautiful and deep with meaning, you will be hard pressed to find something similar even in the Shiva Purana. The Srimad Bhagavata Mahapurana is truly the masterpiece of Srila Vyasadeva.

[Adhvagat]

Sahasranama... So this purport:


Indulging in wine and meat, keeping long hair on one's head, not bathing daily, and smoking gāñjā (marijuana) are some of the habits which are accepted by foolish creatures who do not have regulated lives. By such behavior one becomes devoid of transcendental knowledge. In the initiation into the Śiva mantra there are mudrikāṣṭaka, in which it is sometimes recommended that one make his sitting place on the vagina and thus desire nirvāṇa, or dissolution of existence. In that process of worship, wine is needed, or sometimes, in place of wine, palm tree juice which is converted into an intoxicant. This is also offered according to Śiva-āgama, a scripture on the method of worshiping Lord Śiva.

Is it a lie?

[Sahasranama]

Is it a lie?

If it's taken as a generalisation of all Shiva upasakas, then yes.

[Elizabeth108]

There are more schools / branches within shaivism if I am not mistaken. So there might be one little sect /part that could be characterised by such words as can be read in the explanation, BUT in general, it is not referred to in shaiva literature... so that desciption can not be true in general.

It is, I think, similar to such a case when a whole nation is described based on one member of it - that is called overgeneralisation, right?

So I did feel my friends words and quotes disrespectful but of course he expects respecting of the teachings (ISKCON) he follows. And he is very 'aggressive' in communication when it comes to teachings.


Thank you for the replies so far, and I am interested in others view, opinion (maybe supported by scripture passages) as well.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Adhvagat]

If it's taken as a generalisation of all Shiva upasakas, then yes.
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Sahasranama, so is there a sect that practices these actions?

I'm interested because I know very little of the various branches of Shaivism.

Is there a site you can point me to so I can read about the details of the branches of Shaivism?

Thank you.


There are more schools / branches within shaivism if I am not mistaken. So there might be one little sect /part that could be characterised by such words as can be read in the explanation, BUT in general, it is not referred to in shaiva literature... so that desciption can not be true in general.

It is, I think, similar to such a case when a whole nation is described based on one member of it - that is called overgeneralisation, right?

So I did feel my friends words and quotes disrespectful but of course he expects respecting of the teachings (ISCKON) he follows. And he is very 'aggressive' in communication when it comes to teachings.


Thank you for the replies so far, and I am interested in others view, opinion (maybe supported by scripture passages) as well.

Om Namah Shivaya

Well Elizabeth, aggressiveness will always bow down to the Truth.

[Elizabeth108]

Here is one example...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaivism#Major_schools

Simply Google schools of shaivism or similar and there you will find more if interested.




Is there a site you can point me to so I can read about the details of the branches of Shaivism?

Thank you.



Well Elizabeth, aggressiveness will always bow down to the Truth.

[Believer]

So I did feel my friends words and quotes disrespectful but of course he expects respecting of the teachings (ISCKON) he follows. And he is very 'aggressive' in communication when it comes to teachings.

Elizabeth,

Many a times, followers of an individual Hindu sampradaye (sect/tradition/school of thought) tend to show themselves to be the real/best/most traditional practitioners of Hinduism than the rest. This could take the form of selective, out of context, quoting of certain verses from the scriptures; misguided translation of a verse; showing how a certain deity is superior than another with the backing of some random verses; or through any number of other mischievous tricks. I would not worry too much about these distractions and let myself be shaken in my faith/sadhna/observances by other people. In fact, I would not even call a person with the above description, 'my friend', and try to distance myself from him. It happens all the time that newly converted followers are overly indoctrinated into believing in the superiority of their sampradaye over the rest of the Vedic spectrum and they go about trashing everything besides what they practice. Such misguided souls need to be avoided, until they 'grow up' and start realizing the values of different schools of thought in the Vedic culture. It should not come as a surprise that even the ISKCON founder said some very unkind words about the gurus/Acharyas/leaders of other Hindu sampradayes and about some prominent social and philosophical Hindu figures, which were never recanted as mistakes and have become a permanent record of the history of ISKCON. It is sad, but such things happen even among highly spiritual Acharyas. Maybe a 'bad hair day' makes them do it. :)

[Rasa1976]

A friend of mine (member of ISKCON) showed me a passage of the SB.
Here is the part he referred to:
SB 4.2.29.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/29/en

Is this really a true description of shaiva people?
Or how should I understand that part of the SB?

I don't live in India, but my guess is that *some* Shaivites have acted in the manner described in that purport. Now of course if someone wants to write a commentary about Vaisnavas who 'like' children, etc., they are more than free to do that as well.

It's interesting though, to read the verses in that chapter in succession. I think in this case however, the commentary is mainly to enhance the weight of either side adding to the pomposity of the battle. Thanks for bringing it up.

[anirvan]

its unfortunate that such a sloka is explained in ignorant way to shown it as tribal form of worship.
i will highlight some words i was taught by my gurudev.

VAGINA--sitting on vagina??it indicate YONI MUDRA...a supremely powerful yogic technique for chanting and its success.it involves simultaneous elevation of kundalini and making mantra lifeful.

LONG HAIR,BATHING ETC...does a person mad to see god have time to take care of such basic requirements.these are all signs of BAIRAGYA(TOTAL AND TRUE RENUNCIATION) AND BYAKULATA(INDOMITABLE DESIRE IN PERSUIT OF GOD).
they apply mortuary ashes,drink in human skull to remind them the mortality nature of human and to constantly burn the fire of renunciation inside them.

and in true tantrik-saiva practices......5-m"kar...wine,meat,sex etc are metaphore,the symbolism of greater virtues.

[anirvan]

any sect based on pure emphasis on devotion is bound to be fundamental and radical.as love is blind.its difficult to be liberal in such way.that is happening in ISKON.i am not intending to insult,but you cant expect half baked devotee to be as liberal as a vedanti.ofcourse a self realized devotee is as liberal as a self attained vedanti.

to become a vaishnav,one must be a shakta(tantra/saiva or yoga).as true devotion comes after self realization.so these are different stages of sadhna.

[Elizabeth108]

Hi again,

I've just found another more detailed and better description of the six main schools of Shaivsm. Here it is:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_r2_six-schools.html

Om Namah Shivaya




I'm interested because I know very little of the various branches of Shaivism.

Is there a site you can point me to so I can read about the details of the branches of Shaivism?

Thank you.



Well Elizabeth, aggressiveness will always bow down to the Truth.

[realdemigod]

Elizabeth,
There are quite a few inconsistencies in Hindu scriptures. Though quite debatable, no one knows who is right and what is right and you will have enough people to take sides. Iskcon movement is totally based on Bhagavad-Gita and Bhagavatam and its members only refer to these scriptures time and again. In my experience they refrain to accept other scriptures. It's not wise and correct to refer to Shaivtes from scriptures like Bhagavatam since it's totally on Lord Krsna or Visnu.
One word of advice do not stereotype or listen to anyone who stereotypes when it comes to divine knowledge or spiritualism. Always open to new ideas and possibilities.

[Sahasranama]

Sahasranama, so is there a sect that practices these actions?There are vama margis or kaulas who practice these actions from Shaiva, Shakta and Vaishnava sampradayas. I do not know much of the details of these type of practices. Neither do I know where to find more information on this. What I know is that Swami Dayananda of the Arya Samaj was involved in smoking marihuana when he got involved with Shaiva yogis, but later in life condemned it. In the Ramayana, Meghanad and Ravana were tantrik practicioners.


There are quite a few inconsistencies in Hindu scriptures. Though quite debatable, no one knows who is right and what is right and you will have enough people to take sides. I tend to see inconsistencies as either lack of my own understanding or when it is obvious as interpolations. There are interpolations, but not as many as people think. The Bhagavata Purana is considered one of the least interpolated puranas. Looking at the commentaries over the centuries from Sridhara onwards, there's a lot of consistency in the text of the Bhagavatam. Bhavishya Purana is the most interpolated text.


Iskcon movement is totally based on Bhagavad-Gita and Bhagavatam and its members only refer to these scriptures time and again. In my experience they refrain to accept other scriptures.ISCKON has many important scriptures besides the bhagavat gita and the bhagavatam, basically all the major gaudiya vaishnava text are important to the Hare Krishnas, including the brahma samhita, the caitanya caritamrita. They quote extensively from other puranas when it supports their doctrine, but ignore it when it doesn't fit their own siddhanta. This is not a blemish on the consistency of the puranas, but a matter of consistency of doctrine within ISCKON.

[Elizabeth108]

I met this person (earlier called 'friend') today again as I could not avoid it due to work. But this time when he began a similar conversation to the one because of which I started this thread, I asked him specific questions like why does he judge saivism and saiva people through ISKCON "lens" and still he calls criticism, attack when I ask specific questions regarding his beliefs but he leaves my questions unanswered? His reply was that my attitude is not nice, I am not humble, I am not open enough and such.

Without the intention of hurting anyone, my conclusion is that they expect other people to blindly accept their views without the attempt to try to really understand the 'why's' and when they meet people with specific questions, they themselves begin to attempt the person itself so that they can change the subject and this way make that person feel inferior etc. still questions are left unanswered for some reason.

I guess, I have just learnt a new lesson today. I am thankful for the lesson though. :)

[ritueshwara]

Om Namah Shivaya

[Kumar_Das]

Elizabeth,
There are quite a few inconsistencies in Hindu scriptures.

Hmm... That's quite a bold statement don't you think so?

I welcome you to start a thread about that.

[realdemigod]

It is...but I don't want to start

[Tapasya]

Namaste,

http://vedabase.net/sb/4/6/42/en (http://vedabase.net/sb/4/6/42/en)
1. In the above ISKON translation of Canto 4, Chapter 6, verse 42 of the Srimad Bhagavata, Lord Brahma refers to Lord Shiva as the Supreme (Param).

2. Srimad Bhagavata may refer to Lord Shiva as a Vaishnaivite, but equally Sri Rama and Sri Krishna (and other Dasa Avatara ) worship Lord Shiva. Hanuman Bhagavan, who is said to be an incarnate of Lord Shiva, worships Sri Rama – yet Lord Shiva is Parameshwara (Supreme God) according verse 42 above. Adi Shankaracharya composed Bhaja Govindam in praise of Lord Vishnu, the beautiful Narmadaashtakam to Goddess Narmada or Saundarya Lahari to Devi as Sakti. Sri Bhagavadpada also introduced panchayatana puja (worshipping five deities comprising Ganesha, Vishnu, Devi, Surya and Shiva). Advaitins also worship Surya Deva during Sandyavandanam.

3. The explanation for these apparent inconsistencies lies in the interpretation of Smrti that encompasses Dvaita and Advaita traditions. Thus, in the context of the query raised:

a. It is indeed foolish for the ajnani to live on wine and flesh. (Though there are tantric sects that do this very thing). However, from the perspective of the Jnani, there is no distinction between the consumer, the act of consumption and the matter consumed. By the way, if we use the ISKON translation as base, it is worth commenting that “someone who has a preference” is an ajnani (by definition). For the Jnani, form and attribute are not relevant. Thus, for example, I can quote the story of Sage Agastya consuming and digesting the demon, Vatapi.

b. True knowledge is devotion. That is, true knowledge implies, and is implied by, Bhakti.

c. Any interpretation of the purana texts that denigrates non-vaishnaivites, in my humble opinion, is foolish. Further, one could also vent the opinion that disparaging remarks against those of a dissimilar sampradaya is, by definition, a manifestation of Ahamkara.

[realdemigod]

thanks for the explanation Tapasya

[giridhar]

A friend of mine (member of ISKCON) showed me a passage of the SB.
Here is the part he referred to:
SB 4.2.29.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/2/29/en

Is this really a true description of shaiva people?
Or how should I understand that part of the SB?


Furthuremore, my friend added this:
Those who imitate Shiva are called Shaiva (and he says the quoted SB part refers to them) and
those who follow Shiva's teachings should rather be called Vaishnava.


Please, help me, for I got confused. :(

Om Namah Shivaya

Ganesh prasad is v correct. a shloka in isolation serves NO purpose. I made the mistake of relying too much on vaishnava ocmmentaries abt shaivism...

The vaishnavas have developed a sort of hate attitude towards everything other than Vishnu. But remember, though Vishnu worship has been there for aeons, vaishnavism, as a religion is very recent. Shri Aurobindo Ghosh used the word RELIGION for VAISHNAVISM, but not for the shaiva path,cos the Shiva for shiavas is beyond the holy trinity... Whenever he used sanatan dharma, he called it the ANCIENT dharma,now lying in ruins. He, being a tantrik basically, stressed more on Mother Worship or Shakti upaasana.

The Shaktas are more closer to Shaivas than the vaishnavaas,for the latter stress more on leaving the world & going to the purusha loka. The former are world conquering. Where there is Shakti, the Shaktimaan is Shri Shiva.

The vaishnava hatred for anything material & worldly makes them shirk from action in the world - not so for the shaktas & shaivas. The proof is there in front of our eyes :

In the last 1000 years, when we had been enslaved by any worm on the earth, it is the shaivas - Tiru jnana Sambandhar etc in Tamilnadu who uprooted jainism, Guru Gobind Singh smashed muslims ( He was Chandee devotee ), Chhatrapati Shivaaji smashed muslims (He was devotee of Shivaa = consort of Shiva), Kumaara Kampanna , the prince of Vijayanagar kingdom who saved madurai from muslims (he was given the sword by Shri Parvati Herself), Swami Vidyaranya who created the vijayanagar empire by doing Shakti upaasana (though he was an advaitin too).... The list is endless...

Of what use the vaishnavas who decry the Mother's creation ? How can one truly reach the Parama Purusha by decrying His Shakti & her creation ? Of all paths in spirituality, the most powerful is the path of aghoras. Not surprising, cos the lord of the path is Shri Shankara. "Rudraanaam Shankarah cha asmi" says Shri Krishna in the Gita.

Being powerful, the path may look terrific or terrible (wotever) to many. Naturally, there are positives & negatives in any field. So, this power of using narcotics to soar high in meditation etc etc tend to get misused - nothing surprising abt it.

To conclude, there will come many many more vaishnavas who will continue to decry all others. But it is ONLY the children of Shri Durga ( who is manifest as BHarat Maata ) who will re-establish Sanaatan Dharma , simply because Shri Durga - Kaali is COMPLETELY surrendered to Her lord beloved - Parama Shiva.

Om Shakti

[Kumar_Das]

I don't live in India, but my guess is that *some* Shaivites have acted in the manner described in that purport. Now of course if someone wants to write a commentary about Vaisnavas who 'like' children, etc., they are more than free to do that as well.

It's interesting though, to read the verses in that chapter in succession. I think in this case however, the commentary is mainly to enhance the weight of either side adding to the pomposity of the battle. Thanks for bringing it up.

Beware.

[Adhvagat]

Ganesh prasad is v correct. a shloka in isolation serves NO purpose. I made the mistake of relying too much on vaishnava ocmmentaries abt shaivism...

The vaishnavas have developed a sort of hate attitude towards everything other than Vishnu. But remember, though Vishnu worship has been there for aeons, vaishnavism, as a religion is very recent. Shri Aurobindo Ghosh used the word RELIGION for VAISHNAVISM, but not for the shaiva path,cos the Shiva for shiavas is beyond the holy trinity... Whenever he used sanatan dharma, he called it the ANCIENT dharma,now lying in ruins. He, being a tantrik basically, stressed more on Mother Worship or Shakti upaasana.

The Shaktas are more closer to Shaivas than the vaishnavaas,for the latter stress more on leaving the world & going to the purusha loka. The former are world conquering. Where there is Shakti, the Shaktimaan is Shri Shiva.

The vaishnava hatred for anything material & worldly makes them shirk from action in the world - not so for the shaktas & shaivas. The proof is there in front of our eyes :

In the last 1000 years, when we had been enslaved by any worm on the earth, it is the shaivas - Tiru jnana Sambandhar etc in Tamilnadu who uprooted jainism, Guru Gobind Singh smashed muslims ( He was Chandee devotee ), Chhatrapati Shivaaji smashed muslims (He was devotee of Shivaa = consort of Shiva), Kumaara Kampanna , the prince of Vijayanagar kingdom who saved madurai from muslims (he was given the sword by Shri Parvati Herself), Swami Vidyaranya who created the vijayanagar empire by doing Shakti upaasana (though he was an advaitin too).... The list is endless...

Of what use the vaishnavas who decry the Mother's creation ? How can one truly reach the Parama Purusha by decrying His Shakti & her creation ? Of all paths in spirituality, the most powerful is the path of aghoras. Not surprising, cos the lord of the path is Shri Shankara. "Rudraanaam Shankarah cha asmi" says Shri Krishna in the Gita.

Being powerful, the path may look terrific or terrible (wotever) to many. Naturally, there are positives & negatives in any field. So, this power of using narcotics to soar high in meditation etc etc tend to get misused - nothing surprising abt it.

To conclude, there will come many many more vaishnavas who will continue to decry all others. But it is ONLY the children of Shri Durga ( who is manifest as BHarat Maata ) who will re-establish Sanaatan Dharma , simply because Shri Durga - Kaali is COMPLETELY surrendered to Her lord beloved - Parama Shiva.

Om Shakti

That's an interesting POV.

[devotee]

Namaste all,

Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Mother Goddess Durga, Maa Kaali ... are they different ? Let's remember what Rig Veda says :

"Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti"

===> The Truth/Reality/That Is/God/Brahman/Infinite Consciousness is one alone ... the priests call them by different names.

Also read Bhagwad Gita Chapter 13, verses 13 to 17.

Verse 17 declares :

That (Ultimate Truth) which is undivided, appears to be divided in all beings. He (alone) is to be known as the creator (Brahmaa), the sustainer/nourisher/preserver (Vishnu) and (also) the destroyer (Shiva).

OM