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amith vikram
07 January 2011, 01:00 PM
Some months ago i was wondering when i'd get mukti. I am not a saint like yajnavalkya. I don't have the will of vivekananda, nor do i have complete vairagya nor the knowledge. But i also cannot be 'normal' materialistic at the same time. So in order to find out what others are thinking about this matter, i asked an elderly person, around 40 years old, about his take on jeevanmukti or mukti in general. He said that he was at that time concentrating on sense-control. It didn't really help me, to be honest. Because as i understand, that is not the right way to go about. Sense control is important, but practising sense-control doesn't seem to be the goal of any person. So when the up. says jeevanmukti, is it jeevanmukti for all or jeevanmukti for sanyasis? I think it is jeevanmukti even for the worst possible being. And JM means mukti in this janma itself. May sound too optimistic, but it is a simple fact. Because one major thing i remembered, he who has no attachment is verily the self. According to this, a person need not wait till the form(body) drops down. The man is liberated from the moment he becomes unattached. I am not sure about this though.

Adhvagat
07 January 2011, 10:38 PM
Amith, I've thought about it for a while and I must say that I tended to have a negative view on this matter, as in I just hoped I'd be liberated so I wouldn't suffer the miseries of this world. However this didn't account any development of true expansion of conscience, study of spiritual knowledge and not to mention Bhakti.

As of today I'm dettached from the potential attachment of deceiving myself into thinking that I have true Bhakti. So what I can really have as a sincere goal for spiritual advancement is Jnana. I look past 7 years and I get amazed from how much I've changed internally, I look 2 years ago and I get even more amazed.

So I'm not sure this not so healthy obssession for mukti is such a great thing, specially for me (it's up to you to be judge of your case). I wanna be where the Vedas are, I'll keep on working on studying them and realizing their truth. One could say that I'm merely directing my Kama to the Vedas, but hey, I'm a Kali Yuga dweller, at least I'm with a better focus now. And I think it's better to be sincere in my desire for Jnana than to fake Bhakti for some psychological comfort.

I hope that my realizations are of some use for you.

Om Tat Sat

Alise
08 January 2011, 01:31 AM
Namaste,

I heard than person can attain liberation while soul is in body but it's really in really rare cases.
That is actually all about how strong is person's willpower. Person who desires house, family, career & so on and think that he would try to realize self after he would get those things, he wouldn't get very far... Not because he would start late but because it's not his priority.

Have a great day,
~Alice

yajvan
08 January 2011, 11:12 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I would like to offer a bit more on this subject and perhaps offer
a point of view on amith vikram's question in the next post.

jīvan-mukti =

jīvan = jivat = rooted(√) jīv = to live
mukti = setting or becoming free , release , liberationHence jīvan-mukti is that jīva (being) that is liberated while living (jīv)
Yet if one is completely free within this body why does the body continue? It is still a ~limitation~ .

The question is answered when when looks at 3 types of actions ( karma) that we are subjected to.

prārabhdha¹ karma - actions that were gathered in the past and have come into play
sañcita¹ karma - accumulated actions that have yet to blossom
sañcāyamīna¹ karma - those actions that are being gathered todayWhen one achieves jīvan-mukti sañcita karma and sañcāyamīna karma are 'roasted' as it is called. The notion of a roasted seed that cannot germinate or sprout is brought to mind. These actions are no longer active agents.

Yet what is an active agent , or has momentum is prārabhdha karma . These actions of the past that have sprouted brings this present existence.

Now the wise say it another way... they call these actions leśāvidya or remains of ignorance.
If the HDF reader cares to read a bit more of this leśāvidya it is posted here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6090 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6090)


praṇām

words

prārabhdha - commenced , begun , undertaken
sañcita some spell saṃcita - piled together , collected, accumulated, gathered
sañcāyamīna some spell saṃcayayamīna - saṃcaya+yamīna
saṃcaya = collection , gathering , accumulation ( in order to have more) + yamīna
yamīna = yamī+na : yamīna = yamī to rein or bridle ~control~ + na = not.
saṃcayayamīna then is those current collection of actions that have not (na) be reined-in (yamī).

Adhvagat
08 January 2011, 11:35 AM
Thank you, Yajvan.

amith vikram
08 January 2011, 12:53 PM
@pietro,

a few years back, i held the same view. But anyway, it's not the same anymore. I feel that, they are all stressing on the same matter(all the scriptures).

@ sweetalisija,

I've heard this from a lot of people and even my father tells the same. But i differ from this view. It is true that one has to abandon family and house to gain 'perfection'. But that happens over time. And that can happen only if he aspires for jeevanmukti again! Is there any other way?

@Yajvanji,

Indeed yes. So the thing what i was saying was that jeevanmukti is the only real goal of vedanta AND every tom,dick and harry should have the same goal. The point is, the mind has to be unattached. If the mind is unattached then that is called mukti and all that time when the mind is unattached, it is of the firm opinion that I is non-doer. Is it correct.....or is it my own thinking......

amith vikram
08 January 2011, 12:54 PM
Deleted.

yajvan
08 January 2011, 06:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté amith vikram


So the thing what i was saying was that jeevanmukti is the only real goal of vedanta AND every tom,dick and harry should have the same goal. The point is, the mind has to be unattached. If the mind is unattached then that is called mukti and all that time when the mind is unattached, it is of the firm opinion that I is non-doer. Is it correct.....or is it my own thinking.

Yes, this is the goal of vedānta and also the goal of other darśana-s¹. Now regarding Tom , Dick and Harry having this as their goal. Some will have this consciously as an agenda and others may not. Yet over time this is the net goal for all (whether within or outside of vedānta).

Unattached
Now this mind being unattached. The question can be taken further, unattached to what? To the body. Since we are talking vedānta it would be wise to see what ādi śaṅkara has to say about this matter. In his Vivekacūḍāmaṇi¹ he sets the stage for knowledge of the Self within the first 153 śloka-s and says in the 154th śloka, Therefore, to be free of bondage ( bandha-muktaye) the wise (viduṣā) should make an effort (kartavyo) to discriminate between the Self and not-Self (ātmānātma vivekaḥ). By having understood that which is the nature of Existence (sat) Consciousness (cit) and Bliss (ānanda), one becomes blissful (sac).

This post discusses takes the whole idea a bit more in-depth: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033

Regarding 'I' - Self and not-Self
There are two views that cause us some confusion. That of pure 'I' or ahaṁ and that of ahaṃkāra which is is literally 'I doer' meaning self-ego, individual-centric.
Pure I is in fact non-doing, but people co-mingle it with ahaṃkāra and the conversation then goes sideways. The same occurs with Self and self. Large Self it that of ātman , small self is that of individual ego. Hence if we say ātman , this is the non-doer. And in this conversation ātman = Self =I; non-Self we end up with the body and all its components.

Tom, Dick and Harry
But let us go back to Tom, Dick and Harry and your original post:

So when the up. says jeevanmukti, is it jeevanmukti for all or jeevanmukti for sanyasis? I think it is jeevanmukti even for the worst possible being
This jīvan-mukti condition is for all, yet there are some pre-requisites:

mumukṣutva or the desire for liberation, enlightenment, fullness of Being.
samādhi-sādhana-sampat or one's meditation to experience Being , or pure awareness we call samādhi
ihāmurtrārtha bhoga virāga or dispassion
nityānitavastu viveka or discrimination Note these 4 grooms the intellect, emotions and one's will or steadfastness ( focus). Note these are not my list by that found in vedānta.
It is critial that knowledge and experience occur for the full blossoming of jīvan-mukti to unfold. We can talk more of this later if there is interest, yet in a nutshell knowledge acts as a roadmap, insight and hone's the intellect.

Now these 4 prerequisites can all be superseded by the grace of the Supreme for one to attain this condition jīvan-mukti. Yet it is
said final emancipation ( mokṣa) does not occur without His grace.

What then of Tom, Dick and Harry? There needs to be intent on their end for this unfoldment to occur.

praṇām

words

darśana - seeing, looking, knowledge, traditional doctrine or precept , collection of such doctrines
Vivekacūḍāmaṇi or the Crown jewel of Discrimination ( some say crest

amith vikram
09 January 2011, 01:06 PM
namaste yajvanji,
the link that you provided explains in detail about this topic. And i have a lot more to think about now. Also it was nice to remember the chandogya up. again. And there also it clearly states that unless one has discrimination, there is no way out. The important thing here is to be steadfast in that knowledge. And also, i have been asking this to a lot of ppl these days, do you think you'd be liberated in this birth itself? I know it's a slow and steady process, but your take on this?

yajvan
09 January 2011, 04:06 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté amith vikram


And also, i have been asking this to a lot of ppl these days, do you think you'd be liberated in this birth itself? I know it's a slow and steady process, but your take on this?

I could not think of a more important thing in my life. Yet will mokṣa blossom during the breaths I take in this life ? I do not know.

I think of a few things regarding this matter. What you put your attention on grows stronger in one's life. Hence mumukṣutva or the desire for liberation, enlightenment, fullness of Being. Yet I am reminded of the śloka from the kaṭhopaniṣad (I.3.14) ... its like a razor's edge.

It says , arise, awake. Approach ( varā¹) the best of masters , do realize the Self ( ātman); Difficult ( durgaṁ¹) to cross ( some say difficult is the path) like a razor's edge¹, so the wise proclaim.

What is the point here? for the sādhu (yogī or yoginī , both being yogin-s) there are many distractions. These distractions can be internal or external. My distractions grow less and less over the years and more time is given to sādhana.

What begins to fall away?
The kaṭha upaniṣad (I.2.2) talks of śreyas (conducive to welfare i.e. of higher value) and preyas (pleasant for here and now, amenable to worldly life and accommodations).
It says the following ( Yama is talking to naciketas) : both śreyas and preyas approach man. The wise fully surveying them (both), discriminates and chooses śreyas in preference to preyas. The ignorant interested in worldly well-being chooses ( really the word is 'thus consumes' or vṛṇīte) preyas.

More and more attention is on śreyas.

praṇām

words

varā - choose, 'select' also means precious , best , most excellent
durgaṁ or durga - difficult of access or approach , impassable , unattainable
razors edge = niśita - sharpened , sharp ; also means steel or iron

amith vikram
10 January 2011, 12:53 PM
hmm...nice to know your view on this. There is one thing though, that i have noticed. Throughout the history i've seen examples of ppl,great ppl. And each one of them born in different times, diff places, with diff karma(or dharma). All of them, seemed to have some sort of identical path(quite obvious). And if we consider ppl of this yuga, those who were liberated on earth, it is quite amazing. And that's what intrigues me. Some of the ppl were leading normal household lives and then all of a sudden in this birth itself attained the goal. And one thing which is identical among them all, and the only thing that they all stressed upon, more than anything, is bhakti towards ishwara. Even if we look at shankaracharya's works, it's the same. It seems like this bhakti makes, what seems to be very difficult to something very simple.
But one thing i don't understand, how much ever i try to convince myself. That is, i fail to find the relation between god(hari or hara or any) and brahman. I fail to find the identity between krishna who is so lovable and brahman which is beyond love.

amith vikram
10 January 2011, 12:59 PM
testing

yajvan
10 January 2011, 02:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté amith vikram



And one thing which is identical among them all, and the only thing that they all stressed upon, more than anything, is bhakti towards ishwara.
Even if we look at shankaracharya's works, it's the same. It seems like this bhakti makes, what seems to be very difficult to something very simple.

You bring up very relevent ideas. There is no doubt that bhakti is of key import. Now , if I may let me offer a view for your consideration.

If we consider the word bhakti we know it to be defined as devotion , homage , worship , piety , faith or love. Yet there is another definition of bhakti. It is ( in the feminine gender) defined as separation or partition. Why is this relevant?

For bhakti to bloom to its fullest, one must be offering this bhakti from one's own Being, on a most pure level (śuddha¹). That is, a person possessed of the Self, of Being, of brahman. So there is first a separation (bhakti) of what is Self and what is non-Self (ātmānātma vivekaḥ¹). This is on the level of ātman which is outside of activity, perfectly silent from the body-sense which is in activity and the to-and-fro of life's permutations. It is from this level of Being that bhakti is most fruitful and deserving.

Now one says, what of bhakti that is offered before being possessed of the Self? This is fine and is good training, and perhaps makes the heart swell with devotion. Yet the blossoming of the fragrant scent of devotion comes with the possession of the Self, as it also adds to one's evolution to higher states of Being.


This is the secret of the ages. If one studies the bhāgavad gītā the notion of devotion does not come in until kṛṣṇa-ji firmly establishes knowledge, the idea of yoga, and being without the 3 guna's. Then on this foundation one then can bring in devotion. It must be on stable ground for it to take firm root.


you mention

But one thing i don't understand, how much ever i try to convince myself. That is, i fail to find the relation between god(hari or hara or any) and brahman. I fail to find the identity between krishna who is so lovable and brahman which is beyond love
We can look at this in a future post.


praṇām

words

śuddha - means cleansed , cleared , clean , pure , clear ; yet other extensions of this word means complete , entire, ~whole~ fullness; śuddha in its neuter gender of grammar means anything pure - pure spirit; in its masculine gender it is another name for śiva.
ātmānātma vivekaḥ - see this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033)

amith vikram
11 January 2011, 12:24 AM
namaste yajvanji,

For bhakti to bloom to its fullest, one must be offering this bhakti from one's own Being, on a most pure level (śuddha¹). That is, a person possessed of the Self, of Being, of brahman. So there is first a separation (bhakti) of what is Self and what is non-Self (ātmānātma vivekaḥ¹). This is on the level of ātman which is outside of activity, perfectly silent from the body-sense which is in activity and the to-and-fro of life's permutations. It is from this level of Being that bhakti is most fruitful and deserving.
i hadn't thought about it like this before. And it makes sense to me. This bit almost sounded mystical, perhaps because it is subtle.

[
FONT=Tahoma]Now one says, what of bhakti that is offered before being possessed of the Self? This is fine and is good training, and perhaps makes the heart swell [/FONT]with devotion. Yet the blossoming of the fragrant scent of devotion comes with the possession of the Self, as it also adds to one's evolution to higher states of Being.

True and probably everyone goes to next level through this phase and some may stick to the initial phase itself. But there is so much diff in the two types of bhakti. very interesting. The more i think about this, the more it appeals to me.


This is the secret of the ages. If one studies the bhāgavad gītā the notion of devotion does not come in until kṛṣṇa-ji firmly establishes knowledge, the idea of yoga, and being without the 3 guna's. Then on this foundation one then can bring in devotion. It must be on stable ground for it to take firm root.

And perhaps that's why krishna says a jnani is best among bhaktas
you mention


We can look at this in a future post.


waiting for your next post

yajvan
13 January 2011, 06:52 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté amith vikram



That is, i fail to find the relation between god(hari or hara or any) and brahman. I fail to find the identity between krishna who is so lovable and brahman which is beyond love


To have a meaningful conversation the following posts can be viewed as a primer:

brahman : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1379
The Supreme Personality : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4523 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4523)
śivaḥ : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=51867&postcount=4
mahāsattā : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6500 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6500)
praṇām

amith vikram
15 January 2011, 12:53 PM
Namaste yajvanji,
i think it'll be nice if we collect some important threads in hdf under specific topics and make it sticky, so that it'll be very useful. A kind of well organised forum.

There is a book called parva in my regional language written by an esteemed author, s l bhyrappa. It is about mahabharata. At the end he says- i was able to characterize all of the characters in mahabharata except krishna. Indeed, i understand everything at the end of the day is brahman. Pure, infinite, existence, bliss. Impossible to think, because it is not what we think. And also the 'leelas' of the lord is unimaginable and ridiculously huge. Take the eg. of his friendship or him being husband or son.......any...there is an overdose. A man can forget about mukti and go around in the lord's thoughts for ever. Perhaps i can never establish the relation between vyakta and avyakta rupa, because of 2 reasons: 1) i am thinking this from the ignorant's(anatma) pov and 2) if at all i establish the rln.,i'd be liberated! this of course can be wrong, coz i still haven't heard from you.

Now what becomes important is bhakti again. Coz krishna says a person who does the upasana of vyakta rupa is better. And even shankaracharya says a lot about bhakti. Perhaps i need to know about some examples of how ppl. showed devotion to lord and deep in their heart, what were they thinking?

yajvan
15 January 2011, 08:11 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté amith vikram (et.al)

If one were to view the brahma sūtra-s ( some prefer to call them the vedānta sūtra-s), the 555 śloka-s offered in this work adds insight to your question. They review:

nirguṇa - unmanifest , some like to call this unconditioned brahman
saguṇa - manifest , or ~ conditioned~ brahman and here we find the Lord taking on personalities
pratīka ( & pratimā) - meaning outward form or shape , look , appearance , face ~symbols~ and images , statues and idols.Yet to pursue this without some study and reading of the upaniṣad-s is putting the cart before the horse.

We as humans , in the beginning need support for our adoration. So , it is recommended we start with images and symbols. Then as our śraddha (faith) progresses, our support lessens on images and more on the purity of Being. Our march is to pāramārthikasattā¹, the highest Being, the Supreme.

For me all the Great Ones that are called out in the śāstra's are the ambassadors of nirguṇa brahman; What does that infer? That uccāra-rahitam vastu or that Reality that is totally devoid of utterance - indescribable, becomes describable to us and takes on the qualities we read of e.g. viṣṇu, śiva, rudra, lakṣmi, bhairava, ganeṣa, kṛṣṇa and the like are saguṇa brahman.

It is to our delight and benefit to adore them. It is also the notion that we yoke ourselves to one and the iṣṭadevatā. It is this personal relationship that one can build over time. Yet this relationship is not a fancy of the mind. For this to really occur one needs to be established in Self-awareness (pratyaktva -towards one's Self). Why so? The wise say how can you know the Lord if you do not know your own Self? Our intentions are just and noble, yet for our adoration to bear fruit, the entry point is via knowing the Self, then one's spiritual life begins to blossom in full.


praṇām

words

pāramārthikasattā = pārama +ārthika +sattā = (seated) in the highest being, existence ~brahman~


pārama - chief , highest , primary , most prominent or conspicuous
ārthika - pertaining to the true substance of a thing ; real
sattā - Being, existence; note that satta ( without ā ) means seated